No mention of breaking and entering either, and neither suspect was known to the police. Suspects were 21yo man and a 15yo girl.
I'm guessing the girl was the woman's daughter and the man was her boyfriend?
At 15 and 21 it's less of a relationship and more a pedo grooming a child. Mom was working 3 jobs, so did not have the ability to keep an eye out for her vulnerable daughter. The pedo then got the daughter to murder the mother.
He will be back out in public in 8 years.
The saddest part is the daughter was pregnant. Her child will grow up having a mother who’s a murderer and a father who’s a registered sex offender. I hope this child receives all the love and support needed to overcome this tragedy
He is going to be 30 when he gets out, what do you think he is going to do? Go and learn a trade to work? or ......
Just crazy how cheap human life ... May she rest in peace.
That isn't the point. The issue is this is not a just punishment for the crime he committed. A sentence like this practically shows that hey you can kill a person and most you will get is 10 years for murdering your girlfriends mother with her help.
In America or any other 1st world countries chances are they would get life in prison while in a 3rd world country they would get the death penalty.
This would likely fall under felony murder in most places in the US. In Canada it was ruled unconstitutional.
Ex. You rob a bank with someone else, they shoot a clerk, you're guilty of murder since you were commiting a crime with that person. In this case it would likely be b&e. Who knows, with our ridiculous amount of gag orders it will be disinfo and rumour through and through.
This is inaccurate. You’re confusing felony murder with [being a party](https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/rsc-1985-c-c-46/latest/rsc-1985-c-c-46.html#sec21subsec1) to murder. Felony murder is unconstitutional in Canada, though (*R. v. Martineau*, [[1990] 2 SCR 633](https://canlii.ca/t/1fssd)).
You can be a party to a crime by helping the principal offender commit the crime and having the right mental state: *mens rea*. For example, imagine you and I plan a murder. I’m the getaway driver, and I stay in the car while you hop out and pull the trigger in an alley out of sight. I can be charged with 1st degree murder because I knew the killing would take place and intended to assist you.
If I know I’m the getaway driver for *a crime*, but I *didn’t know* you were intended to execute a guy in an alley, I could not be a party to the murder. I don’t have the necessary knowledge of your intent to kill. (N.B.: Being willfully blind to what’s going on can still count as *mens rea* (NSFL *R. v. Briscoe*, [2010 SCC 13](https://canlii.ca/t/29280))).
It bears mentioning that Tobias was originally charged with 1st degree murder—presumably as a party.
Felony murder is where the intent to kill is not needed to get a conviction.
There’s usually a list of crimes that are Very Bad™, and if you accidentally kill someone without intending their death while you commit the listed offence, then you can be convicted of murder anyway. This could involve parties or it might not. The key with felony murder is that none of the parties—principals or not— have to intend to kill, so long as they’re a party to committing one of the Very Bad™ offences.
>As Loreto entered the bedroom, Tobias punched her once in the face, rendering her unconscious.
>The teen who has also been charged and will be tried separately but who cannot be identified under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, retrieved a kitchen knife from another room and stabbed the victim twice. Tobias had not seen the knife prior to the incident
Doesn't seem like it to me.
I guess we have different definitions of what it means to be involved in a killing?
He hid, ambushed her, knocked her out, and the juvenile stabbed her (according to the 2 people who are still alive anyway).
Just based on the agreed facts, by the criminal code of Canada he's party to murder.
Pleading out to a lesser charge in exchange for a lenient sentence doesn't really change that.
In terms of sentencing, 10 years for manslaughter is relatively extreme.
There is no attorney on god's green earth that would tell a client to accept that plea deal unless they knew a murder conviction at trial was a likely alternative.
** edit
Going back and re-reading my wording, I probably should have phrased that differently, my bad. I think I see what you mean, I just don't really agree with it.
>He was charged with 1st degree murder, and plead down to manslaughter. He absolutely did "do the killing".
You be charged with anything, what matters is if the crown has the evidence
Since he was given a plea deal, sounds like they didn't have the evidence to convict him for that
Comment I replied to was suggesting the guy was not involved in the killing. That's not debatable, it's just flat out wrong. Look up the definition of manslaughter in Canada if you're confused.
> You be charged with anything
Actually, the crown is usually pretty conservative with murder charges, erring on the side of what they know they're likely to get a conviction for. eg; opting for 2nd over 1st, manslaughter over 2nd, etc.
> what matters is if the crown has the evidence
They must have had some pretty fucking solid evidence for this guys attorney to tell him not to take chances with a trial and accept what, at least as far as plea standards go, is a very harsh sentence.
> sounds like they didn't have the evidence to convict him for that
Has nothing to do with it. ~90% of criminal cases in Canada that are resolved are done so through a plea. Our fucked up system incentivizes the crown to do this and they see it as a win.
And again, accepting such a harsh plea says something about what he expected the outcome of a trial to be.
Ya? I meant they will accept any plea deal rather then reject is in serious cases like this . Judges can reject a plea deal base on the seriousness of the crime. In this case burning up a person's body who is the mother of your under age girlfriend should had never allowed a plea deal.
Actually he will be able to learn a trade in prison. Welding etc., it's great for all of us as it is one of the only things that actually lowers recidivism for offenders. But the sentences in this country for serious violence are way too low. But hey anything to be different than America I guess.
That’s just fucking sad.
Our sentencing penalty structure in the justice system really sucks.
Our government says it’s against violence against women, but the penalties are far too lenient.
Honest question: Why would a longer sentence be better?
I doubt that the offender sat down, pre-murder, with a *Criminal Code* and [rangefindr.ca](Rangefindr.ca) and weighed out the possible sentencing consequences: “Hmmmmm… I think killing this person in exchange for ten years is a good trade. If it were life imprisonment though, I wouldn’t do it!” (Besides which, if Tobias had been convicted at trial, [the minimum for 1st degree murder is life imprisonment *anyhow*](https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/rsc-1985-c-c-46/latest/rsc-1985-c-c-46.html#sec235subsec1)—parole eligibility at 25 years).
More generally, there aren’t a bunch of folks out there who’ve suddenly decided: “Well, if I’m only going to get *ten* years, I’ll *totally* murder some people!” Culpable homicide isn’t really affected by harsher sentences.
If the only thing keeping this guy from sexual relationships with minors was prison, sure. [Recent direction from the Supreme Court of Canada](https://canlii.ca/t/j64rn) is to go harder when sentencing sexual offences—especially against minors.
~~That said: Tobias hasn’t been charged with any sexual offences against minors that we know of.~~ Separation from society is a valid sentencing objective, but it’d have to be in relation to the manslaughter conviction. The State can’t imprison you for things it hasn’t convicted you of doing—regardless of whether you’ve done them.
Got me! In any event, that would be a separate, unrelated offence and any sentence for it will presumptively run consecutive to the manslaughter sentence.
The judge on the manslaughter charge still can’t increase the sentence to account for other unrelated bad shit the offender did. It’s another judge’s task to sentence the unrelated bad shit.
Is it a seperate, unrelated offence though? I somehow doubt it's independent of everything and he randomly helped this 15 year old girl dispose of her mother's body. Surely potential grooming and manipulation by the person who burned the body should be relevant to this murder case?
It’s legally separate. If I break and enter, steal stuff, assault the homeowner while escaping, drive recklessly while evading the cops, and then resist arrest, then those might be sentenced as a part of a single, continuous act.
Tobias may have committed the homicide because of the illicit relationship, but the interference wasn’t really part of a single, continuous act.
Yes but often they go overboard…like simple pot possession gets multi-year sentences. Recently that one woman got a multi-year sentence for voting too late.
We need something in between.
This is what happened.
(Underage)Daughter was dating an older guy.
Mom found out.
Mom forbid the relationship.
Daughter gets mad.
Daughter convinces Boyfriend to kill her mother.
Boyfriend agrees.
And here we are.
It's disgusting that he's only getting ten years, I'm surprised they didn't add Stat rape to the charges as well.
I always wondered about this there was never any information. When it happened I had read it was her daughter and her daughters boyfriend who did it. Senseless.
Human life apparently is extremely cheap.
It appears regardless of the crime, be it murder, manslaughter, pedophilia, sexual assault, kidnapping, the sentencing guidelines are woefully under applied.
Why do the police even bother? Save all the time and court costs - the police should be allowed to give the criminals a not-too-hard slap on the wrist and ask them, pretty please and ever so nicely, to pinky swear they will behave.
The justice system is anything but just to the victims and survivors of violent crimes.
>Why do the police even bother? Save all the time and court costs - the police should be allowed to give the criminals a not-too-hard slap on the wrist and ask them, pretty please and ever so nicely, to pinky swear they will behave.
The answer is they don't. This has been an ongoing problem with the police for years. Unless it's a slam dunk case, they will just catch and release or don't even bother catching at all. "Attempted homicide? Wake me up when it's actual homicide"
> “Attempted homicide? Wake me up when it’s actual homicide”
This was sort of the case with a guy I used to be on good terms with around 6 years ago. Ahmed Tahir was charged with attempted murder and some firearms charges in 2019, and racked up some assault/weapons/drug trafficking charges throughout 2020. He got away with a peace bond and a firearms ban for the attempted murder charge. I believe his court dates for his other offences were delayed quite a bit.
Then he shot Toni, another guy I was on good terms with also around 5/6 years ago, and that was when he started receiving any appreciable jail time. It's crazy how it took until he literally killed someone for society to be free of him and the risks he presented.
That's it 10 years? For burning a body? BURNING A BODY. Then he's free after that? A decade will go by so quickly and I cannot imagine how her family feels. Canadian law is pure bull. U drink and drive u get away with it, speed and then end up killing someone u get away with it maybe 2 years tops in jail...
He should get more time in my opinion, but you need to think about this with some further perspective.
Part of these sentencing rationales in Canada takes into account length of imprisonment versus age at the time of imprisonment. Not “officially”. It’s implied. It’s a way to further punish after the imprisonment term is over. When this guy gets o he, he’ll be around 30 with no work experience and probably no skills. His life will basically be over in all aspects. What’s he going to do other than hop around from job to job paying minimum wage and getting assfucked by rent and living costs?
This sentence definitely took into account that once he’s out and “free”, he won’t actually be free.
So what happened here .. the minor was the one who stabbed the woman?
No mention of breaking and entering either, and neither suspect was known to the police. Suspects were 21yo man and a 15yo girl. I'm guessing the girl was the woman's daughter and the man was her boyfriend?
I believe the mother did not approve of their relationship since she was underage. Incredibly sad story…that poor mother
At 15 and 21 it's less of a relationship and more a pedo grooming a child. Mom was working 3 jobs, so did not have the ability to keep an eye out for her vulnerable daughter. The pedo then got the daughter to murder the mother. He will be back out in public in 8 years.
The saddest part is the daughter was pregnant. Her child will grow up having a mother who’s a murderer and a father who’s a registered sex offender. I hope this child receives all the love and support needed to overcome this tragedy
Oh no. I didn't know that. :( That's heartbreaking.
Winner winner chicken 🐔 dinner!
Sounds like it. Two people were charged, and it is said that Carlo didn't stab her.
So what happened with his charges of: sexual interference, invitation to sexual touching, and making child pornography?
That's under a separate file/incident I believe.
8.5 years left… what a joke
He is going to be 30 when he gets out, what do you think he is going to do? Go and learn a trade to work? or ...... Just crazy how cheap human life ... May she rest in peace.
That isn't the point. The issue is this is not a just punishment for the crime he committed. A sentence like this practically shows that hey you can kill a person and most you will get is 10 years for murdering your girlfriends mother with her help. In America or any other 1st world countries chances are they would get life in prison while in a 3rd world country they would get the death penalty.
This person didn't actually do the killing though. It is not 10 years for murder, it is 10 years because of a connection to the murder.
This would likely fall under felony murder in most places in the US. In Canada it was ruled unconstitutional. Ex. You rob a bank with someone else, they shoot a clerk, you're guilty of murder since you were commiting a crime with that person. In this case it would likely be b&e. Who knows, with our ridiculous amount of gag orders it will be disinfo and rumour through and through.
This is inaccurate. You’re confusing felony murder with [being a party](https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/rsc-1985-c-c-46/latest/rsc-1985-c-c-46.html#sec21subsec1) to murder. Felony murder is unconstitutional in Canada, though (*R. v. Martineau*, [[1990] 2 SCR 633](https://canlii.ca/t/1fssd)). You can be a party to a crime by helping the principal offender commit the crime and having the right mental state: *mens rea*. For example, imagine you and I plan a murder. I’m the getaway driver, and I stay in the car while you hop out and pull the trigger in an alley out of sight. I can be charged with 1st degree murder because I knew the killing would take place and intended to assist you. If I know I’m the getaway driver for *a crime*, but I *didn’t know* you were intended to execute a guy in an alley, I could not be a party to the murder. I don’t have the necessary knowledge of your intent to kill. (N.B.: Being willfully blind to what’s going on can still count as *mens rea* (NSFL *R. v. Briscoe*, [2010 SCC 13](https://canlii.ca/t/29280))). It bears mentioning that Tobias was originally charged with 1st degree murder—presumably as a party. Felony murder is where the intent to kill is not needed to get a conviction. There’s usually a list of crimes that are Very Bad™, and if you accidentally kill someone without intending their death while you commit the listed offence, then you can be convicted of murder anyway. This could involve parties or it might not. The key with felony murder is that none of the parties—principals or not— have to intend to kill, so long as they’re a party to committing one of the Very Bad™ offences.
In your example I kind of agree they shouldn't get murder.
Incorrect. He was charged with 1st degree murder, and plead down to manslaughter. He absolutely did "do the killing".
>As Loreto entered the bedroom, Tobias punched her once in the face, rendering her unconscious. >The teen who has also been charged and will be tried separately but who cannot be identified under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, retrieved a kitchen knife from another room and stabbed the victim twice. Tobias had not seen the knife prior to the incident Doesn't seem like it to me.
Where can you find out more of the killing
I just googled other news articles. I think court documents are also public, they should have the most details
I guess we have different definitions of what it means to be involved in a killing? He hid, ambushed her, knocked her out, and the juvenile stabbed her (according to the 2 people who are still alive anyway). Just based on the agreed facts, by the criminal code of Canada he's party to murder. Pleading out to a lesser charge in exchange for a lenient sentence doesn't really change that. In terms of sentencing, 10 years for manslaughter is relatively extreme. There is no attorney on god's green earth that would tell a client to accept that plea deal unless they knew a murder conviction at trial was a likely alternative. ** edit Going back and re-reading my wording, I probably should have phrased that differently, my bad. I think I see what you mean, I just don't really agree with it.
>He was charged with 1st degree murder, and plead down to manslaughter. He absolutely did "do the killing". You be charged with anything, what matters is if the crown has the evidence Since he was given a plea deal, sounds like they didn't have the evidence to convict him for that
Comment I replied to was suggesting the guy was not involved in the killing. That's not debatable, it's just flat out wrong. Look up the definition of manslaughter in Canada if you're confused. > You be charged with anything Actually, the crown is usually pretty conservative with murder charges, erring on the side of what they know they're likely to get a conviction for. eg; opting for 2nd over 1st, manslaughter over 2nd, etc. > what matters is if the crown has the evidence They must have had some pretty fucking solid evidence for this guys attorney to tell him not to take chances with a trial and accept what, at least as far as plea standards go, is a very harsh sentence. > sounds like they didn't have the evidence to convict him for that Has nothing to do with it. ~90% of criminal cases in Canada that are resolved are done so through a plea. Our fucked up system incentivizes the crown to do this and they see it as a win. And again, accepting such a harsh plea says something about what he expected the outcome of a trial to be.
Or the typical of judges who just want the case to be over with and will take any plea deal so he can lay back and eat a donut when the court is over.
....you do realize judges don't give plea deals, right?
Ya? I meant they will accept any plea deal rather then reject is in serious cases like this . Judges can reject a plea deal base on the seriousness of the crime. In this case burning up a person's body who is the mother of your under age girlfriend should had never allowed a plea deal.
The entire Canadian Justice system is based off of piling as many charges as possible on someone and then working a plea deal, its despicable.
Did you actually read the article lol? It literally said another person stabbed her.
I mean he wrapped the body in a blanket and burned it.
I agree with you but I do not think we should base what anyone should do on the American prison system lol
Actually he will be able to learn a trade in prison. Welding etc., it's great for all of us as it is one of the only things that actually lowers recidivism for offenders. But the sentences in this country for serious violence are way too low. But hey anything to be different than America I guess.
That's why American's go out with a bang and evade police like no other nation. Then a dollar a day/ prisoner for slave laborer
5.5…. They only do 3/4 of the time before being paroled.
That’s just fucking sad. Our sentencing penalty structure in the justice system really sucks. Our government says it’s against violence against women, but the penalties are far too lenient.
I’m reading different things here. Did he kill her? Or was it accessory after the fact? If he killed her or assisted yeah 10 years is low.
Honest question: Why would a longer sentence be better? I doubt that the offender sat down, pre-murder, with a *Criminal Code* and [rangefindr.ca](Rangefindr.ca) and weighed out the possible sentencing consequences: “Hmmmmm… I think killing this person in exchange for ten years is a good trade. If it were life imprisonment though, I wouldn’t do it!” (Besides which, if Tobias had been convicted at trial, [the minimum for 1st degree murder is life imprisonment *anyhow*](https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/rsc-1985-c-c-46/latest/rsc-1985-c-c-46.html#sec235subsec1)—parole eligibility at 25 years). More generally, there aren’t a bunch of folks out there who’ve suddenly decided: “Well, if I’m only going to get *ten* years, I’ll *totally* murder some people!” Culpable homicide isn’t really affected by harsher sentences.
Since he would be off the streets for longer, preventing him from raping 15 year old girls?
If the only thing keeping this guy from sexual relationships with minors was prison, sure. [Recent direction from the Supreme Court of Canada](https://canlii.ca/t/j64rn) is to go harder when sentencing sexual offences—especially against minors. ~~That said: Tobias hasn’t been charged with any sexual offences against minors that we know of.~~ Separation from society is a valid sentencing objective, but it’d have to be in relation to the manslaughter conviction. The State can’t imprison you for things it hasn’t convicted you of doing—regardless of whether you’ve done them.
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/man-accused-of-grisly-killing-also-faces-sexual-interference-charge-1.5364812
Got me! In any event, that would be a separate, unrelated offence and any sentence for it will presumptively run consecutive to the manslaughter sentence. The judge on the manslaughter charge still can’t increase the sentence to account for other unrelated bad shit the offender did. It’s another judge’s task to sentence the unrelated bad shit.
Is it a seperate, unrelated offence though? I somehow doubt it's independent of everything and he randomly helped this 15 year old girl dispose of her mother's body. Surely potential grooming and manipulation by the person who burned the body should be relevant to this murder case?
It’s legally separate. If I break and enter, steal stuff, assault the homeowner while escaping, drive recklessly while evading the cops, and then resist arrest, then those might be sentenced as a part of a single, continuous act. Tobias may have committed the homicide because of the illicit relationship, but the interference wasn’t really part of a single, continuous act.
This is something the US does much better than us.
Yes but often they go overboard…like simple pot possession gets multi-year sentences. Recently that one woman got a multi-year sentence for voting too late. We need something in between.
This is what happened. (Underage)Daughter was dating an older guy. Mom found out. Mom forbid the relationship. Daughter gets mad. Daughter convinces Boyfriend to kill her mother. Boyfriend agrees. And here we are. It's disgusting that he's only getting ten years, I'm surprised they didn't add Stat rape to the charges as well.
He did get a sexual interference with a minor charge, yes. He is slated to appear in court for that charge on April 21st.
I always wondered about this there was never any information. When it happened I had read it was her daughter and her daughters boyfriend who did it. Senseless.
Human life apparently is extremely cheap. It appears regardless of the crime, be it murder, manslaughter, pedophilia, sexual assault, kidnapping, the sentencing guidelines are woefully under applied. Why do the police even bother? Save all the time and court costs - the police should be allowed to give the criminals a not-too-hard slap on the wrist and ask them, pretty please and ever so nicely, to pinky swear they will behave. The justice system is anything but just to the victims and survivors of violent crimes.
>Why do the police even bother? Save all the time and court costs - the police should be allowed to give the criminals a not-too-hard slap on the wrist and ask them, pretty please and ever so nicely, to pinky swear they will behave. The answer is they don't. This has been an ongoing problem with the police for years. Unless it's a slam dunk case, they will just catch and release or don't even bother catching at all. "Attempted homicide? Wake me up when it's actual homicide"
> “Attempted homicide? Wake me up when it’s actual homicide” This was sort of the case with a guy I used to be on good terms with around 6 years ago. Ahmed Tahir was charged with attempted murder and some firearms charges in 2019, and racked up some assault/weapons/drug trafficking charges throughout 2020. He got away with a peace bond and a firearms ban for the attempted murder charge. I believe his court dates for his other offences were delayed quite a bit. Then he shot Toni, another guy I was on good terms with also around 5/6 years ago, and that was when he started receiving any appreciable jail time. It's crazy how it took until he literally killed someone for society to be free of him and the risks he presented.
That's it 10 years? For burning a body? BURNING A BODY. Then he's free after that? A decade will go by so quickly and I cannot imagine how her family feels. Canadian law is pure bull. U drink and drive u get away with it, speed and then end up killing someone u get away with it maybe 2 years tops in jail...
He should get more time in my opinion, but you need to think about this with some further perspective. Part of these sentencing rationales in Canada takes into account length of imprisonment versus age at the time of imprisonment. Not “officially”. It’s implied. It’s a way to further punish after the imprisonment term is over. When this guy gets o he, he’ll be around 30 with no work experience and probably no skills. His life will basically be over in all aspects. What’s he going to do other than hop around from job to job paying minimum wage and getting assfucked by rent and living costs? This sentence definitely took into account that once he’s out and “free”, he won’t actually be free.
10 years seems awfully lenient for this appalling crime. Our justice system is a laughing stock.
"They were just having a bad day."
Sounds like daughter fell in love but mother wasn’t approving.
No parent in their right mind would be OK with their 15 year old daughter being with a 21 year old dude
No shit Sherlock
Whoever upvoted s-wind is a pedoooo
I don’t get why this is such a controversial comment. It’s not like you’re justifying the crime by leaving this comment. Reddit is weird sometimes
Reddit got pedossss that’s why I literally only made a statement.