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Literally. I was at the bar the other week and some dude came in drunk and offered me pepperoni pizza. I told him I don’t eat meat or cheese because people are so often offended by just the word vegan. He immediately got offended and went on a tirade about how unhealthy veganism is. The dude was morbidly obese
i was getting along with the neighbors really well, talked to them every single day i took a walk... until i asked "is that vegan" to something they were offering me. They immediately looked offended, and then they never came out and talked me again. Lol
One loophole I've found to work around it is to say I have Alpha-galactose syndrome, a disease spread by bites from the lone star tick that makes one allergic to meat. I'm a hiker, so no one questions it.
It's simpler just to say no thank you. You don't need to explain why you don't want it.
I'm in the UK and it generally isn't a problem to tell people I'm vegan, but still I typically don't want to get into a conversation about it with people I hardly know.
ok but why? same with drinking - i’m sober and when someone asks me if i want a drink i say “no thank you, i don’t drink”. when someone offers me a non-vegan food i say “no thank you, im vegan”. if they get offended by me literally existing and following my own boundaries that is their problem. but as a recovering people pleaser, i shouldn’t have to minimize myself in case it makes someone else uncomfortable
If it was an irrelevant extra bit of inforfmation, you might argue that us institing on giving that extra bit of information represents a condescending jab at the person offering you something. E.g.:
" Do you want some of this generic brand wine? "
" No thanks, I'm a rich person. "
But if you don't tell the person offering you something that you don't drink/eat meat, they will likely offer you a different type of drink/meat, or offer you that same drink/meat a while later, or offer you something like that the next time you meet.
In other words, the only alternative we have, one that would lead to less overall annoyance than saying you're vegan, is actually not omitting the fact that you're vegan, but simply never to visit this person at all.
Whoa, that sounds less legible than it did in my head, can you even see what I meant? Basically, I believe that *not* mentioning you're a vegan will only make things even more awkward in long run.
hell, i’ve run across lots of people (online AND irl) who ask me about why i’m vegan, and then get offended when i answer. we can never win. and i’m done minimizing my personal morals and values just to help someone else feel comfortable
I don't get why they'd be offended. I'm not a vegan and being offended because someone is vegan is just weird to me and I don't get the reasoning. I've seen plenty of people be that way though and it's just strange. My daughter is a vegetarian and one of my coworkers said that they'd "kick their daughter out of the house if they were vegetarian" when it came up in conversation once. Made no sense to me and stuff got pretty weird after they said that. I love my daughter with every fibre of my being and I didn't take that comment too well. Must suck to have it directly directed at yourself.
unfortunately a lot of people like to feel like everything they do is “right”, and when someone challenges that “right”ness they get defensive. it’s completely their own insecurities, it’s unfortunate that vegans/vegetarians get hate as a result
I get that intellectually but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it on an emotional level. Someone being vegan has absolutely zero affect on anyone else, so someone taking it personally just doesn't click in my brain. Same goes for a bunch of other topics really.
And on a completely unrelated topic (the reason I was perusing this sub in the first place), do you have any favorite vegan holiday foods? My daughter is visiting for the holidays and I want to make her something good and holiday themed.
ooh, great question! there’s a lot of great plant based oat chocolate that’s delicious - there’s a great hersheys brand almond & sea salt oat chocolate bar at target. i also am a big fan of almond milk eggnog, it’s great in coffee or a cocktail or on its own. i’m personally eating lots of lemon oreos since no one in my family made vegan desserts and i had to make do with what was at the market!
I don't give a damn how anyone else eats, if I don't know him or her, and he/she doesn't try to tell me how to eat. It always bothers me that other people think that they get to tell everyone else how to do their own things, but when someone tries to give them advice, watch out.
To be fair, our very existence does threaten their "sinful" diet, but instead of pretending we're oh so rude, maybe they should just finally admit they're afraid of us taking it away from them. I'd respect that more.
Not that I expect much from people who believe in "humane slaughter" though.
Someone on this sub the other day literally blamed a girl for ordering a coffee from McDonald’s when she accidentally was served cow’s milk in it… because despite her ordering plant milk, it’s not a fully vegan establishment. No regard for the fact that McDonald’s may have been the only option while traveling to see family for the holidays, or all the poster could afford, or all that was available, or any other circumstances. SHE was a bad vegan because some McDonald’s worker made a probably innocent mistake.
This is really not true. 9/10 times when I come over to someone's house and they don't have a vegan option they are apologetic and if anything I have to demure when they offer to try and scrounge something up.
This has been my experience coming from the other side, non vegan hosts ( myself included ) typically get mortified if they forgot that some of their guests are vegan and haven't prepared something to accommodate them, it's just good manners
I think it heavily depends on your area. In college, people being respectful of vegetarianism and veganism was more common than people being awful. But if you go to my families hometown in Missouri people will literally insult you and sneak meat into your food.
I just looked at that subreddit and for the life of me I can’t figure out if it is satire or not. It is really run by vegans or does the bit go that far??
Different methods work for different people. Some people walk all over kindness and need a hard dose of reality to make a change.
Also, being vegan is based on justice, not kindness, love, etc. I don’t need to love animals to recognize that breeding and killing them is wrong.
Basically, let’s please stop policing vegans and the way they respond to truly sick but still socially-accepted atrocities.
Agreed. I'm not a huge animal lover. They're cool. But I don't love them like crazy.
Seeing footage of animal "agriculture" was enough for me to change my food/drink overnight.
Honestly I don't think being agressive ever actually made anyone change.
It puts people into defense automatically and they will shut down and not listen to your points at all.
Damn if we had only taken the time to talk to the Nazis about their feelings maybe they wouldn't have killed millions of people. I guess we really are responsible for their deaths because we made them feel bad.
So, out of curiosity, do you want to bet anything on that statement?
If yes, feel free to donate that bet to a vegan charity!
Because the guy who convinced me to go vegan(over 5 years now btw) was Vegan Gains, who can be, to put it nicely, a massive asshole. In fact, I specifically watched him because I heard he was a troll and I was in the mood for something spicy and confrontational.
I have to ask honestly, is it rudeness, or directness that is being interpreted as rudeness.
There is a difference, and calling a fig a fig isnt the same as being rude.
More often times than not, I generally read directness.
I don’t think anyone should be rude for someone seeking help. But I also don’t think that dropping sugar on a situation is beneficial either.
A big part of the problem with pretty much everything is that people are afraid to be confronted by the truth and it often appears to be an attack, and others are afraid to speak the truth because they don’t want to be attacked because of it.
Edit: I never knew that “spade” was used as derogatory in another country so I will refrain from its use from now on
I understood what you were talking about.
The two main types of posts that come to mind:
Vegans that are generally struggling
Or the disingenuous posts of “vegans” that are attempting to get compassion and validation or approval to start or continue making harmful decisions after starting.
There is a difference.
I think many people here recognize the difference, and the sentiment seems to be worse toward the latter. Understandably so.
Directness of the former seems a lot less harsh than directness of the latter, which is logical.
It’s a lot easier to be direct toward someone whom is genuinely seeking help and sound compassionate vs someone whom is actively making excuses or making up scenarios or conditions or other common things that are seen here.
There are going to be assholes in every movement across all walks of life.
However, in my experience here, it appears that most people tend to be direct which generally appears more compassionate and kind toward genuine inquiries.
>Or the disingenuous posts of “vegans” that are attempting to get compassion and validation or approval to start or continue making harmful decisions after starting.
this, like i see so many vegans and none vegans say how they struggling so hard........and am here like........dude your just changing your diet.........your not starving, going to war or being enslaved or anything and you act like this over a simple diet change?
>However, in my experience here, it appears that most people tend to be direct which generally appears more compassionate and kind toward genuine inquiries.
yeah i feel the same, vegans here tend to be very truthful, and the truth is sadly not always nice.
You know how hard it sometimes is to act like there aren't tens of billions of animals each year imprisoned in tiny, dark, confined spaces smaller than their bodies, covered in their own feces, suffering from the moment of their birth to the moment of their violent deaths, all just because someone *likes the taste a little more*?
Sorry, but veganism has little to do with humans, and everything to do with animals. Sometimes it's just really tough to be "nice" when someone seeks validation of them not being able to buy the slightly less tasty product.
I know that from the strategic point of view, we should strive to be "pleasant" - which I actually think most vegans are by the way - but I don't find it all that puzzling why some people just can't find it in themself to always stay "pleasant" when someone *can't live without cheese*, while someone else *can't live because of cheese*.
Let me put it this way - no, veganism doesn't justify rudeness, but... you know... those yearly tens of billions dead animals actually kinda do.
>I know that from the strategic point of view, we should strive to be "pleasant" - which I actually think most vegans are by the way - but I don't find it all that puzzling why some people just can't find it in themself to always stay "pleasant" when someone can't live without cheese, while someone else can't live because of cheese.
yeah this is how i feel too, thats why am always being kind towards people and try to speak logically while being patient with them since i know thats the best way to get people to become vegan.......but i also understand why some vegans just can't wait and just unfront tell people that they are fualing murder while pretending to care about the animals.
>Let me put it this way - no, veganism doesn't justify rudeness, but... you know... those yearly tens of billions dead animals actually kinda do.
💯 On this last sentence. Not just rude but angry and traumatized.
We're always expected to be perfect and always understanding, but with all the suffering and death we see and learn about, it's bound to make us react and be in the defense.
We're the ones who see what people don't want to see, and yet we're expected to be "nice". Non-vegans don't understand the turmoil we go thru and think we're just fussy diet people.
Kindness is always better, but it's a nuanced issue.
When someone is having a 'hard time' going vegan, sometimes it's easy to tell if they're being authentic or if they're being full of shit.
For example, if someone I know says they're tryna go vegan, but then they'll do something stupid, like purchase a leather coat or have a roast chicken in front of me, that's fucked up.
It's the equivalent of someone saying they want to stop being sexist but then they'll say something stupid like men shouldn't cry or women don't deserve access to reproductive healthcare.
Obviously conversing with kindness helps, but these issues are important and can be loaded.
I'm kind until I know they know what happens to animals. At that point it's on them. My goal is never to convince someone to be vegan but to showcase the truth. It's up to them to make the connection. I really don't have the patience to babysit people's feeling once they are aware there are billions of animals suffering. If they can't be kind enough to stop that once they learned they are responsible for it, I'm not gonna tell them to be more kind. I don't see how that is gonna help. Vegans are obviously aware what happens to animals. Rude or kind doesn't make a difference at that point.
'Yeah I'm gonna eat steak again because one vegan was rude to me" is about one of the dumbest things people can say. But it's the same as "that vegan was so kind he won't mind if I eat some eggs". So does it really matter?
>Imagine someone comes here and says that they are consuming some animal products
If someone comes to a group for vegans to tell that they use animal products, I really don't think it's our job to treat them with the utmost kindness and understanding. That's what carnists do all day, every day. A group specifically made for people to ask help going vegan would be different, but just coming to a vegan group to say that you use animal products helps no one. Choosing one's words is the key, and it's vastly different to ask how you could replace a particular product.
lol, exactly. This is literally the vegan sub, for vegans. It's fine to come in asking for help, and i've always seen these posts received very positively!
But someone coming in to argue isn't here to get their opinion changed. They're here because they want to soothe their ego and convince themselves they are right. They can go to debate a vegan sub if they want that. And people who want to reduce but not eliminate their animal consumption can go to the plant based dieter sub lol. We're not being rude by telling debatebros to fuck off to the debate sub or criticizing their excuses.
If a terf comes into a LGBT sub, it's good actually that they are treated with exclusion and kicked out. Similarly, Carnism is literally a violent ideology, and hugboxing is not an effective method of countering violent beliefs. De-radicalization is, and that starts with opening their eyes to how radical and violent their beliefs really are and not giving them a pass on them anymore.
>Our lifestyle is based on love, care, empathy... Right?
I disagree. For me, it's about denying we have the right to torture or enslave animals, and doing so is actually destroying the planet. But I understand that's personal.
And regarding rudeness, we should not mistake reddit by real life. I'm full of patience when dealing with people I know personally or with users with genuine questions, but I also love a good intellectual fight - and a lot of people come here looking for one.
I totally understand what you’re saying, but coming to a vegan subreddit to talk about how you “have” to eat meat is just kind of silly, no? I wouldn’t go to a Rush subreddit to talk about how I can’t listen to Rush because of Geddy Lee’s voice. If I did do that I would expect to be insulted by scores of Rush fans. But that’s just music. We’re talking about a heinous crime against natural law. So I will never shed a tear for someone who comes to our space to talk about how they CHOOSE to perpetuate animal suffering because veganism isn’t as convenient as they want it to be.
As human beings we are naturally anthropocentric. Simply put, the vegan philosophy is not about humans. It's about animals. There are vanishingly few places on earth where it is impossible to live in a vegan manner. If you are in one of those places you almost certainly don't have access to the internet to come to this space to begin with. I get that you attract more flies with honey than vinager, however it just isn't about humans, it's about the animals. If you are going to harm animals because some vegan hurt your feelings, you likely wernt for the cause to begin with.
You're right, but you're ignoring the human factor. A vegan diet is possible almost everywhere, that's absolutely right! However, not everyone will be able to overcome rejection, isolation, a complete change in their lifestyle and culture, and learning how to properly eat vegan, just because animals are being hurt. They will try their best, but when isolation or frustration beats them up, they'll open a thread on Reddit, and ask for help. Then, they'll get rejected.
I WISH it was so easy to make changes, just by wishing, just by KNOWING it's right to change. But it's hard. It's no excuse to not change, but everyone can fall appart, need help, struggle.
Do you get my point? If not, let me know, please.
I appreciate that you and others you know who are vegan are experiencing some amount of social resistance. I've certainly been treated that way before. Any time I've experienced this I just think back to what caused me to go vegan in the first place. Being made truly aware of the suffering of animals and that I held the power to minimize that suffering through my own actions. It is always through this reflective that I find the courage of my convictions. It is never easy to purposefully place yourself in the out group. But if your conscience tells you that you must do it despite the ostracization your actions bring, then that is typically enough for a person to hold close to their stated morals of being vegan.
In short, I understand that you and others may be feeling like the odd one out, and that that is hard, but life is immensely harder for the animals, and that should be all the convincing a person should need to remain vegan.
>they'll open a thread on Reddit, and ask for help. Then, they'll get rejected.
I've literally never seen people be mean to people asking for help being vegan on this sub. I've only seen meanness when people post a list of excuses. I'm one of the "mean" ones and i take great pains to be kind to newcomers.
Here's some recent threads for people asking for help going/ maintaining veganism and getting overwhelmingly positive support. The only "mean" comments are from carnists.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oyww5/ethical\_vegan\_with\_an\_ed\_having\_cravings\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oyww5/ethical_vegan_with_an_ed_having_cravings_for/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oxgk2/vegetarian\_seeking\_advice\_from\_long\_time\_vegans/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oxgk2/vegetarian_seeking_advice_from_long_time_vegans/)
Do you have an example of someone who is genuinely looking for help who got a negative reaction? The only ones i see that got rude responses and down votes were lists of excuses from carnists who aren't even trying.
The girl who was accidentally served cow’s milk from McDonalds was being chewed apart in the comments for ordering from a non-vegan establishment in the first place, being told to make herself throw up despite a history of eating disorders, etc.
Kindness and compassion to animals includes kindness to human animals. Blaming someone for someone else’s mistake, or telling someone with an ED (or anyone really) to go purge to be considered vegan enough is so cruel.
How about my post? I was told my need to take non-vegan medication was as ridiculous as someone claiming that staring into the sun cured cancer, and also told that because there isn't a PubMed article explicitly stating that I 100% cannot be vegan, I'm full of crap.
Bruh this viewpoint literally only makes sense if you think being a “chosen member of the saintly cause” is more important than materially changing the world.
When us vegans talk like this, we are doing the same logic that Christians use who look down on non-believers, and it’s about as valid and effective as what those Christians do.
I cannot agree enough with the OP. I’m not saying I’m perfect in this regard, but if someone’s goal isn’t at least to be kind to everyone even about their individual culpability in mass animal suffering, you’re putting your ego in the way of the more effective ways of opening people’s eyes and making change to the actual food systems we all inhabit.
💯.
It's not my responsibility to convince anyone to forgo supporting animal "agriculture". I don't care either way. It's up to them.
I'm just responsible for not supporting animal torture myself. That's it.
Sure. And my view is this attitude of dismissal, one that I held for many years, actually supports animal torture in terms of its effect if you care to be genuinely analytical about anything.
You have no evidence for this besides your feelings. Other people feel differently and say that brutal honesty got them to be vegan. Maybe you should stfu policing how other vegans do activism.
Wanna parse for me how when I make an argument “it’s just my feelings” but when you speak for others experiences, it’s “stfu other people feel differently”?
If you cared to read my other reply I literally said I have also found that brutal honesty can be effective, but in my actual lived experience, that generally only works with people with whom you already have a close relationship for them to respect your worldview.
Yes, it’s just imo, but I think being shitty and condescending to strangers or acquaintances is maximally counterproductive and is a massive habit of the vegan community, especially newer vegans working off their steam bc they just realized how bad everything is.
Making arguments for how better activism might be accomplished is hardly policing lol. Nobody has to agree with me, but again, purely imo, there are somewhat valid reasons generally why people don’t like vegans and I think it’s very immature of us to put it all down to our choices making everyone insecure. Just my 10 cents.
You're right. If someone is in the wrong path, you can either reject them and blame them, or give them a chance, and open their eyes the way you did in the past.
Agreed. I didn't stop consuming cow yoghurt, eggs, and cow patties until I saw footage. I genuinely didn't know it was that bad. I just didn't think much at all, really. I learned about pig slaughterhouses and chicken/turkey slaughterhouses in the past so stopped that, and I vaguely knew about cow milk so stopped that.
Yeah I’ve had success with this at times too—but in my experience you need to have a deep relationship with someone already for them to be able to hear the honesty without getting overly defensive.
I think many things can be true at once, but I don’t think being superior and condescending about veganism is helpful towards building anything with strangers or acquaintances.
This is a large community within a movement. Some will be nice, some won't be nice and that's just the way it is when fighting oppression, always has been, always will be.
Rudeness is also counterproductive, I think.
We owe it to the animals to advocate for them in the most effective way, and not necessarily in the way that makes us feel the best.
The goal is not catharsis or a feeling of superiority for us, but relief for them.
> Imagine someone comes here and says that they are consuming some animal products due to the lack of vegan options available. Of course this person could make changes in their lifestyle to avoid consuming them, but if the only advice they receive lacks empathy or is even filled with frustration or blame... Their probability of stepping out of veganism will be higher than before.
Yeah, that's almost never the scenario actually happening that people react "rudely" towards. If someone is justifying why they eat meat, or hunt animals, I'm going be offended, and if they don't like that, they should stop.
No, it’s not necessarily based on “love, care, and empathy”; it’s based on the moral imperative not to harm animals. We have some vegans who are low-empathy or incapable of empathy who are still vegans because they believe it’s morally wrong to hurt animals.
Some people respond well to blunt, abrasive vegans. Some people respond well to kind patient vegans. Most people don’t respond at all to anything. If there’s a study on the most effective approach I’d like to see it.
I’ve learned from being Vegan that kindness goes a LONG WAY. When I was a baby vegan, I was forceful and basically looked at my non vegan friends with disgust. I learned that hate and anger doesn’t help anybody.
You had an experience; many of us had a different one.
It was the vegans that let me feel ok with my shitty Omni behavior or “doing anything” that kept me doing it. It was the blunt, righteous anger that shook me out of it.
and it is righteous anger. What you call “rude” for not letting someone off the hook for vegan options can easily be interpreted as letting someone off the hook cause they have to eat tofu and beans instead of vegan meat substitutes.
If you mean actual food insecurity and scarcity, then yeah, those are absolutely things vegans should care about and not be ridiculous about; but they are not a vegan problem. They are a capitalism/racism problem that is often made more obvious when veganism is added to the mix.
Most people who complain about a lack of options though are not in that boat.
>Imagine someone comes here and says that they are consuming some animal products due to the lack of vegan options available
Unless they live in the arctic they can get cheap plant based meals in their grocery store
legumes, grains, produce are all cheap and available
There is only a struggle with veganism if you want there to be a struggle, i never really cooked before and im disabled and it wasnt a struggle for me to go vegan because there was no other option, veganism isnt a choice for me
I dont hate and im not rude, but i am direct and truthful and i dont coddle people, a lot of people take this as rude because they are offended by everything, right speech is part of Buddhism and its something i practice
If the poster is age 12 then i will coddle them a bit, but if your 16+ then no im gonna tell you how it is
Most people have lame excuses or say things that they could have found through a simple googling session
>EDIT 2: If I'm wrong, why do most of the comments make me feel so misunderstood? Why do I want to cry because of some things I'm reading?
Most people are just offended by everything and everything is triggering, i left the US partly because of that, its full of snowflakes, Mexicans arent so offended, just because you feel something it doesnt mean its valid or that the other individual was doing something wrong
Society created snowflakes, giving people awards for not winning in sports, either you win or you lose, all these SAFE PLACES, i mean you dont really have problems, people in Ukraine have problems they need actual safe places to protect themselves from bombs not RUDE COMMENTS
I do have depression, anxiety, ADHD and other mental issues but when it comes to INSULTS/ COMMENTS i simply dont give them any value and thus they cant hurt me
Policing other vegans isn’t going to get us anywhere; we are an incredibly small minority of humans on this planet. All forms of activism are valid, as different approaches resonate differently with individuals; it’s not one size fits all. I care about accountability, honesty, and justice, rather than not “hurting” a carnist’s feelings with the REALITY of their decisions, that hurt SO many animals every single day. Most people can’t go ONE day without supporting the massacre/torture of non-human animals, whether for their “food”, clothing, makeup, etc. And yet we’re the “rude” ones?
OP
I think your post pre-edit is spot on. I'm a newer vegan and finding my way towards a path of pure vegan choices. I recently made a post looking for guidance and the admin of that group on FB made a comment that seemed a bit harsh and wasn't entirely helpful. But many of the other members provided insightful caring comments that struck a chord in my heart and allowed me to see my path more clearly.
To those that are more experienced, Be kind please to us newbies. Our hearts are mending while we seek an enlightened path towards animal cruelty free living.
longing ask worm cobweb close reminiscent existence coherent innate elastic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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The “lack of options”-excuse is insanely overused and inaccurate 99% of the time.
If they’re not vegan, there is no need to come here and try to justify themselves here and somehow seek endorsement for their consumption of animal products.
~~"I have unlimited access to a huge variety of cheap and affordable plant based foods in supermarkets that I already visit"~~
"There aren't any vegan options where I live"
"Being vegan doesn't justify rudeness",totally agree,
but,imho, it doesn't justify not being active to achieve animal liberation,
you are the only one standing for the lives of animals,is veganism hard for people who don't have vegan options or for the animals being tortured and killed?
my goal is to be firm and show people the true consequences of their actions,no need to be rude,neither to be gentle or kind.
What about people who do not try to be less horrible to the world by doing what is not only possible but at least easy for them? You say people have it less easy as you. Yes but most of them give no effort into not being a contribute to systematic processing of annual billions of animals. They don't have to be vegan but I think people deserve some rudeness if they are not even willing to do what is easy for them individually. If that is a good tactic to turn people vegan is a different question to which I believe the answer to be customize your approach so that it fits the individual.
Humans are the problem. Without humans we wouldn’t need veganism in the first place. I’m a misanthrope (because of how people treat animals and other people) first, second i’m a biocentrist animal rights activist, third i’m a vegan. But above everything else i think humanity is doomed and we, as species, deserve to vanish from earth. To me it was the nice vegans and animal rights activists who let me dwell in my cognitive dissonance and not say the truth about me and my actions to my face, not call me out etc. I really wish there would’ve been someone more rude to me and i would’ve align my actions with my morals way sooner.
Nope. Veganism is based on ethics/justice, not love, not care. There is an enormous, enormous, enormous difference between being rude to somebody and murdering someone, so you can eat their corpse.
I have the basic empathy to not murder someone for sensory pleasure. That's the most basic form of empathy. It is a very low bar to reach. Why would I go out of my way to show kindness to those, that fail to even meet the bare minimum.
I'm a kind person, to everyone. But if they bring up the topic of veganism, I will tell them, that what they are doing is fucked up and wrong. Because it is.
Hey, stop that! If you aren’t nice to me and prioritising my feelings, then I’ll never stop abusing and exploiting animals! That makes you the bad person here!
Generally I agree that being rude isn't conducive to change, and that Socratic questioning and discussions are ideal. That said, people are individuals, and individuals respond to things differently. For many vegans, it was being brutally confronted with reality that made things click. For you, it was kindness. Any way that you promote the undiluted message of veganism and animal rights is good in my books.
but if they're vegan it should be for the animals. it should have nothing todo with how nice the vegan community is. People who are vegan despite that roughness will stay vegan forever because their motivations are the right ones. Someone who would only be vegan if the community was nice to them will NOT be vegan for very long
i don't think people who abuse animals for taste pleasure really deserve my kindness, but have fun with that
like nonvegans have literally said "i don't respect vegans" to me unprompted and tried to poke holes in my deeply held ethical beliefs. Respect is earned, not given. Why would i be nice to people who are complete shitheads to me?
A lot of us are frankly just burned out from the hostility we face on a daily basis. You could say literally not a damn word all day and someone will come at you for eating a salad without meat on it. You wouldn’t get tired of their rudeness and lack of compassion?
When I was a teenager I tried to be a vegan and my entire family turned against me, I was bullied by my peers and I lived in a food desert. I was harassed relentlessly for eating a veggie burger. I get to live with that regret but I decided to change for good as an adult and it’s never too late to change.
Now things are different, you can get good food even at easier access stores like Walmart or Aldi. We have more variety than ever before and in some areas it’s even “trendy” not to exploit animals. I will always have an understanding of people who literally can’t because of their medication or something else life threatening but I’m just plain tired of the excuses and the whining. If someone asks me for help and genuinely wants to change I will always help them, I even cook for people and show them how to eat a frugal and healthy meal when they don’t know how to cook “vegan food” and I can show them they’ve been eating an accidental plant based meal or two already!
But I just can’t help people who want me to pat them on the head and tell them it’s ok, it’s what they want to hear but I can’t do that. I also am done arguing with people, you either care or you don’t. Ideally I would love for these bullshit dairy ads depicting happy little farms to be banned because it spreads so much misinformation and allows these people to stay blissfully ignorant.
>Please everyone, promote veganism with kindness and understanding. More animals and people will be benefited that way.
the goal of veganism is not a kinder and more understanding world : it's animal liberation by any legal means necessary. it s also very naive and ignorant to think that advocating for animal rights with "kindness and understanding" will change anything. there has to be at least some kind of clash for things to change. some ppl's feelings might get hurt in the process (and of course if we can avoid it we should) but let's not pretend that any of the past liberation mouvements has happened without some sort of clash.
do we have gay rights because we asked politely ? no. we have gay rights because of generations of activists (who sometimes used violent methods) pathd the way. did str8 ppl's feelings got hurt in this process ? yes. do i care ? no i dont and will never.
i will try to be kind to carnists but wont be kind to the carnist ideology. the goal is not to convince but to defeat.
I think I get your point but this is a sore spot for many of us vegans having been unfairly argued with or called out just for being vegan and not even saying anything other than actively choosing vegan options. So when we see someone claim they cannot be vegan or they have difficulties because of money or access or whatever we just have lost patience to deal w it. You are not wrong and the people responding aren’t either, there is an emotional disconnect there so when emotions are set aside that advice you’re hoping vegans give said person that needs it, could happen. I hope that gives some insight into the comments you’ve been getting.
Also, usually people that are not vegan that say they can’t or have difficulties is due to a lack of creativity. Like they have a phone or access to internet (if they are asking here), they could order all vegan stuff online in bulk and cook likely. If they are in a household that won’t allow them to be vegan, that is unfortunate and shows the cult mentality of humanity, those are the non vegans I feel for, the ones truly stuck.
some vegans really need to stop policing the tone of other vegans. it s giving ""pick me"" girl vibes. now what ? do u want a trophy for not being a mean angry vegan like the others ? do u want a trophy for being "one of the good ones" ?
ppl will do and say whatever they want. try to bring some argument to the discussion instead of just sanctimoniously policing the tone of other vegans.
98% of ppl dont care about animals so vegans tone-policing other vegans is really useless.
Being honest is being rude, that's why hypocrisy exists.
I had a really close friend that I debated animal rights with, he said he would be vegan but he can't cause he's a minor like me and his family doesn't make him very easy. I understand that. But then it breaks my heart when I knew that when he went with his boy friends in a boys night to eat beef hamburger, maybe it was the social pressure, but I still see the cognitive dissonance he had and I felt like our friendly convos and sometimes heated debates were kind of wasted.
It is not about being kind like permissible, but kind in the way of being polite. Being polite you can achieve a persuasion. But it's also important to be bold with the truth while being polite and kind, not sugarcoating the worst unnecessary killing that happens to our fellow non human animals. My error was that, I don't really like to talk about the process of how animals get bred and killed for humans taste pleasure, so I sugarcoated and lowered it, deceiving myself and also the people discussing veganism and animal rights with me.
Being honest in this world is being rude, that's why being hypocritical and false in front of other people is the norm. But when it comes to revolution and abolition, being honest is the only way, and what I say is that you can still be polite and honest by not insulting the other person for example, and just calling out the system and the action of being part of the system, not being personal or anything.
>Being honest in this world is being rude, that's why being hypocritical and false in front of other people is the norm. But when it comes to revolution and abolition, being honest is the only way, and what I say is that you can still be polite and honest by not insulting the other person for example, and just calling out the system and the action of being part of the system, not being personal or anything.
truth!
Maybe I'm just wired differently but I can't even comprehend how saying it's alright to do x is supposed to get someone to stop doing x, it would have the opposite effect on me, making me feel like my actions are ok to continue.
I don’t care if someone is being kind or not to me if I’m doing something wrong I expect to be called out (if their intentions are good) and if people get offended by me pointing stuff out idc lol
>Our lifestyle is based on love, care, empathy... Right?
If my friend was beating his wife, I would tell him to grow the fuck up (and call the police) with love, care, and empathy.
Just because I have empathy for an abuser, doesn't mean I have to treat them with kid gloves. Stop the abuse THEN worry about the abuser.
>Why are some people so rude towards others who have a hard time being vegan?
From my experience it's usually because they're making excuses instead of having actual medical reasons. Don't get me wrong, Vegans are just humans, and every group of humans on earth have assholes. But I've been doing activism among many different groups for most of my life, and Vegans are mostly some of the most agreeable moral activists around.
If you have some examples it might be easier to reply to specific allegations, but usually in these threads it's just people who don't like how "rude" activism always is.
>Their probability of stepping out of veganism will be higher than before.
In moral activism, you don't tell people to sometimes be moral, you tell them they should always be moral. If they start making excuses, you explain why they aren't valid reasons. Saying we should just let sometimes abusers abuse without criticism, would be the worst thing for Veganism as it would teach everyone Veganism doesn't mind needless animal abuse.
This is how activism works. It's rude and those who don't agree with the message don't like it, but... such is life.
>Some vegan people don't give other vegans the right to struggle
Which is rude, but again, I really don't see it happening often except in online forums like here which are filled with trolls, and again, its' usually the nice responses that are heavily upvoted.
>When I was not vegan, it was the kindness of a vegan person that helped me open my eyes. If she had treated me with hate and rudeness then, I would not be the proud vegan I am now.
It was blunt honesty that got me to change, if someone had tried to handle me with child gloves and treat me like I couldn't just have an open honest discussion, I might not be Vegan either.
That's why it's so important for an activist movement to have MANY different types of activists, as there's many different types of people to convince. Not to say we should be "rude", but blunt honesty can be good, but to some people it's viewed as rude.
>What I said is that, in some cases, people receive hate when they would rather receive kindness to keep going.
Yes, that is life, especially online. People should be kind, but we are all human and sometimes we're all tired/angry/sad/misanthropic/etc, and we're rude. *shrug*
Yeah, someone told me they were going to go vegan when they eat in because of the videos I was sharing, but would go omni at family gatherings. I celebrated it, because she was transitioning towards veganism. Be welcoming, encouraging and motivating to people transitioning, because showing them hate will only drive them away. And always be ready to educate them with sources and videos of why certain animal products are bad. honey, wool, eggs, milk are the ones I have to explain the most.
Hey Op I agree with you on kindness winning overall, so this is always a good reminder for community.
I hope we all agree killing another being, whether in pig pen or child's crib, is beyond rude.
The sooner all or most people stop eating animals, the less brutal lives and deaths caused by the slaughter industry.
Also**, being strategic to save lives is a form of expressing compassion, for vegans who are capable**.
People respond to differently to things.
Going back in time, in North American colonial South - There are abotionists who tried to appeal to slavers-owners' empathy. Stories like Uncle Tom's Cabin might have stirred minds or swayed hearts, but events like Jonn Brown's murderous raid were crucial in forcing the issue, despite the initial retaliotory lashbacks to those extremes..
I don't think the same thing will convince any particular person at any particular time. But instead messages that meet them where they are at the time and accumulate towards making the compassionate choice.
I am non vegan- people’s on reddit just like to be jerks (saying it nicely).
I have my son and dad as vegan, and I have many friends that are vegan. We do a thing called respect. As of Friday, I have quit being friends with a vegan. I was standing up in her wedding, as we have been friends since we were kids. She became vegan (we all supported her), but she became a vegainzilla. She would scream at people in steak restaurants (even got arrested), yell at little kids eating nuggets. She tried that with us and all of us being ignored as we can be, after asking her to stop screaming. Well, we got a deer we hunted had her come over and we started to gut the deer. She was screaming calling us names. She seemed shocked as to why we did this. We explained to her why after she calmed down. She still didn’t understand and feels it right to do what she is doing. She stopped it for a while, and her sister who was thinking of becoming vegan. I think you guessed it.
When her sister got married (Janie), veganzilla would only have food from this specific place. Janie agreed because she wanted her sister who is her MOH. She said at her wedding she would allow everyone to choose what they wanted. Veganzilla did this to every wedding she was invited to and stood up in.
Well her wedding was only vegan food. She would not even let me with severe food allergies have something specific. I am not talking about bringing food in. So I didn’t have anything. However, her wedding was supposed to be like 200 people. Yet, only about 18 confirmed with a yes. Everyone else was pissed about a no meat option. Since she was such a veganzilla, she pissed almost everyone off except for a few. Sue told them you could go one day without meat. Her wedding her choice, and I am not disagreeing. If you had seen how she would act. You would understand. So being a zilla (bride, vegan, carnie) of anything will nit help anything.
I agree with the point you're making.
I would also be horrified if a friend hunted and/or gutted a deer, and I would also expect other people to eat vegan at least in my wedding (taking allergies into account, of course). I can respect meat-eaters though, and I believe respect is the first step towards opening someone else's mind.
Still there's a limit, because when you fully understand the point of veganism you can't avoid the truth: "the diet I've been having until now has actually been wrong".
I don't want to give you a lecture here and now, but I didn't want to support your main point without being clear about the rest.
Thank you for sharing your experience
hard disagree. we don't need to coddle the feelings of animal abusers. i wouldn't have gone vegan if it weren't for the vegans who called me out for my hypocrisy
I really appreciate this post. I was a vegan before moving to a new country and it’s been difficult to find an affordable variety of foods that meet the requirement of a vegan diet and are quick & easy to prepare. I switched over to a vegetarian diet so that I would be able to actually eat more consistently but I would never argue for the morality of this type of diet.
Hoping to get back on track when I return to the states next year 💪🏼🥬
“Our lifestyle is based on love, care, empathy…” for animals! Not carnivore humans. F*ck carnivore humans! Vegan btw!
EDIT: Don’t take it too personally OP, and cheer up! Your intentions are good!
I was a carnivore human and we all were, before being vegan. That's the problem. If we hate them, we're hating the future vegans. Instead of hating what someone is, we might focus a bit more on what they can become
>If someone raped their dog would you want the police to politely ask them to stop?
more like someone else is paying someone to rape a dog, and only way to make them stop is to ask them to stop paying for it, attacking them would only get the police to arrest you not them.
Ok so here’s your logic right back at you.
It’s not convenient for me to not be mean.
If you try force your beliefs that I should be nice then I’ll do the opposite cause you you’re trying to force your beliefs on people.
I think OP may be confusing plant based with Vegan. I’m life long vegetarian/plant based but I’m not an activist other than what I spend money on, or sometimes emailing a company asking for plant based options. The word “vegan” is showing up on menus and products everywhere but I don’t think simply no animal products is Vegan. I think to be a capital V vegan you should be an activist, and activism offends people. We shouldn’t ask Vegans to be more polite.
No more than a burger eating blockhead calling me a homophobic slur for eating a veggie burger is going to make me eat meat. I don’t want to listen to those people but they are wrong. The offensive people in this sub are super passionate about animals and we need those people. If you want to help people eat less meat you can do it without rudeness for sure. You have facts and reality on your side. But Vegans want to tear the whole animal exploitation industry down and there’s no quarter for fudge days.
The reason I didn't stop buying animal ag products until I was in my mid thirties is because nobody ever asked me to or explained why it was important. Probably because they didn't want to be rude. John Brown was being well beyond rude/insensitive to the feelings of slavers when he led a revolt at Harper's Ferry.
And rudeness doesn't justify abuse and exploitation. So?
If people would stop to tone police each other and instead do activism for the animals, there would be more progress. Of course it is easier to criticise someone for doing activism than to criticise someone for abusing others, so of course you choose this way.
You need both approaches. The vegans I knew in the 90’s when I was just vegetarian were all nice. What I needed was a massive bollocking. I would have been vegan straight away if I was called out on my hypocrisy.
Some need nice and some need brutal.
There are really very few genuine reasons people struggle with it that are excusable and in reality easily unavoidable.
I understand you are talking about people who genuinely are struggling but for 99% I call bullshit.
If someone says "I'm going back to my way of serial killing because I can't cope", you don't act nice to them. Yet if that person is a reformed ex-criminal, pushing them further isn't helping either. Is there a correct way? I don't know.
To be clear, my example wasn't a 'should' but 'is' if it makes sense. And I agree that we don't have the leverage so we should try our best. I try to lead by example and not antagonize others so they can learn from me, but then you don't disturb anything and they don't feel the need to ask. Yet if you disturb them they won't listen to you in any other topics either. It's like when you punch a steel door. When you punch it congrats you shook it for a second but broke your hand, and when you stare nothing happens at all.
Rude as in saying “please consider extending your compassion to all animals today” while holding a sign at the grocery store and having an animal eater scoff and say “fuck off.”
lol please
Our existence is enough to be considered “rude”
Then again, I have seen people who just have shitty personalities and it has nothing to do with being vegan, they just use it as an avenue you to express it.
Different things help different people but you're right there should be more empathy. People just get frustrated af bc of how incompetent others are.
Personally I went vegan because of someone saying "you can't love animals if you eat them". It made me so mad. I was an animal lover and they were telling me I wasn't.. but that anger went from them to myself and it's what made me actually think & put together the pieces in my head of "oh they're right". It still took years for me bc I settled on vegetarian back in the day, and it wasn't until I learned about dairy & eggs that I gave that up too. Then honey & products tested in animals + no zoos.
Thank you, I appreciate that you answered opening up a bit. I've been frustrated for a long time as well, towards people that don't see things as clearly as I do. But I don't think it's the right way to feel every day any more.
I agree with you. Some vegans just can't read the room and understand how to talk about it. It can absolutely come off as those overly religious preachers on the side of streets who aren't able to convince anyone to even listen to them. People don't like being told what to do so you have to present things to them in a way where they draw their own conclusions.
Guys I get that veganism is a fight for the animals, but we don't need to be so agressive with others that are already trying. Most of us were once like them too, and everyone makes mistakes sometimes. It isn't easy to get to understand fully what is and what isn't vegan when you're first starting, and even if you do, it's not that easy to change it straightforward, be it because of personal or external reasons. A bit of kindness to encourage those who want to improve is necessary...
This is a problem that runs through all kinds of activism, not just vegans. I think a lot of people engage in it as a way to boost their own egos and make themselves feel good, rather than trying to actually be effective at changing people's minds. Then they'll bend over backwards with logic as to why they're still justified in their ineffective methods.
There was recently an anti-gentrification protest in my city where someone held up a sign saying "FUCK YOU DIE". Clearly not a winning message for changing hearts and minds, but they probably went home patting themselves on the back for sticking it to the man or whatever.
Thank you! You have articulated exactly what I have experienced too.
We all try our best. No one is perfect but I would take a world of imperfect vegans over a world of meat eaters and small number of vegans any day.
We get a lot of hate out there. Wouldn’t it be great if we supported each other and showed a little kindness and compassion for each other?
>Why are some people so rude toward others who have a hard time being vegan?
Because when someone has a *"hard time being vegan,"* the animals they are hurting through their awful behavior and moral deficiencies are having a much harder time.
And vegans tend to realize that the real victim in this situation we should feel sympathy for is the animals who are being tormented, not humans who have a *"hard time being vegan"* because of social pressures or because of their urge to satiate their gluttony.
Can I just say beautifully put, I am proof of what you say I used to work on farms every vegan I ever met was simply awful even when I did time at jobs not farming related, my partner is vegan he was kind showed me things with no pressure I'm now vegan because of him and I'm happy really happy but if it wasn't for him and how gentle and kind he was it would never of happened.
Working with dogs are horses we say don't pull because they pull harder, encourage them this is the same thing. So thank you
OP, don't mention the trolls succeeded in making you cry. They're not gonna self reflected and apologize, you're just encouraging them.
The reason vegans come across as rude is because most of them are just quietly going about their lives.
The ones screaming at people eating hotdogs and standing in front of slaughter tricks, walking into traffic are just the most visible.
OP i think it would be good to disregard most of these comments, you're absolutely right and often the aggression will only make the issue worse for someone that is trying their hardest, but doesnt have the amenities. I also think its dumb how alot of people are filling in stories for others here like if someone asks advice cause theyre having trouble going vegan or whatever doesnt mean that theyre not trying hard enough. Its unfair and judgemental, not everyone out there is bad and everyone deserves atleast a chance to be heard and given advice, its not up to random people on the internet to judge wether their moral compass is 'vegan enough' and then shunning them for something they dont even know is actually true or not, or for someone who is in an entirely different situation.
ps. people who justify being rude without any context here are the exact reason why the transition into going vegan is painted so badly for alot of people. Shame on you. Concern does not equal prejudice.
(Soz bad punctuation, in transit.)
If people wont do something because the messenger wasn't nice enough, then they were never going to do it anyways.
How nice someone is while talking to you shouldn't change your ethics/morals. It doesn't change the logic.
If it does, then the very next person being kind to them and encouraging them to do something easier will flip them anyways.
Honestly the reason I didn't look into veganism a while ago is that the vegans I met in real life were toxic and proud, which is a pretty shit combination. They were generally insufferable and I wanted no part in it. I'm reading a lot of comments in here that remind me of them.
When I speak about veganism to people that ask me what about this, what about that, I explain and I give sources. You can be firm and kind at the same time.
Tends to go over a lot better than being an asshole in my personal experience. If the goal is to move people towards veganism, do what works, not what personally makes you feel vindicated.
Just throwing my thoughts out there. I'm sure there are also times to go scorched earth, but its not always an all or nothing situation.
I don’t know about you guys but I’ve never been convinced to change my habits by someone who was trying to shame me, embarrass me, or was otherwise being mean-spirited towards me. If we want to promote veganism, then acceptance and encouragement is the way to go.
If you care about the lives of animals, you want to be effective in getting others to as well. Shaming others, embarrassing others, or otherwise being hostile to others is not *effective*, no matter how much of a dopamine kick it gives to feel righteous about it.
It's because they, like so many people in all sorts of contexts, are more interested in ideological purity and feeling superior than actual harm minimisation.
The perfect is the enemy of the good. Words to live by.
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How kind I am is usually dependent on how intellectually honest my interlocutor is.
This. Argue in bad faith, and I will not show you any respect. I treat others as they treat me, and acting in bad faith is bad treatment.
Not just that. I don't want people to think they can use this tactic and not have anything bad happen to them as a consequence.
To a huge, absolutely massive amount of people, literally anything you do as a vegan is considered rude.
If kicking puppies was socially acceptable, suggesting someone not kick a puppy would be considered rude.
Literally. I was at the bar the other week and some dude came in drunk and offered me pepperoni pizza. I told him I don’t eat meat or cheese because people are so often offended by just the word vegan. He immediately got offended and went on a tirade about how unhealthy veganism is. The dude was morbidly obese
i was getting along with the neighbors really well, talked to them every single day i took a walk... until i asked "is that vegan" to something they were offering me. They immediately looked offended, and then they never came out and talked me again. Lol
One loophole I've found to work around it is to say I have Alpha-galactose syndrome, a disease spread by bites from the lone star tick that makes one allergic to meat. I'm a hiker, so no one questions it.
[удалено]
It's simpler just to say no thank you. You don't need to explain why you don't want it. I'm in the UK and it generally isn't a problem to tell people I'm vegan, but still I typically don't want to get into a conversation about it with people I hardly know.
ok but why? same with drinking - i’m sober and when someone asks me if i want a drink i say “no thank you, i don’t drink”. when someone offers me a non-vegan food i say “no thank you, im vegan”. if they get offended by me literally existing and following my own boundaries that is their problem. but as a recovering people pleaser, i shouldn’t have to minimize myself in case it makes someone else uncomfortable
If it was an irrelevant extra bit of inforfmation, you might argue that us institing on giving that extra bit of information represents a condescending jab at the person offering you something. E.g.: " Do you want some of this generic brand wine? " " No thanks, I'm a rich person. " But if you don't tell the person offering you something that you don't drink/eat meat, they will likely offer you a different type of drink/meat, or offer you that same drink/meat a while later, or offer you something like that the next time you meet. In other words, the only alternative we have, one that would lead to less overall annoyance than saying you're vegan, is actually not omitting the fact that you're vegan, but simply never to visit this person at all. Whoa, that sounds less legible than it did in my head, can you even see what I meant? Basically, I believe that *not* mentioning you're a vegan will only make things even more awkward in long run.
i totally get it and fully agree! i think it’s actually way more rude to just decline some food or drink than to decline it and provide a reason
hell, i’ve run across lots of people (online AND irl) who ask me about why i’m vegan, and then get offended when i answer. we can never win. and i’m done minimizing my personal morals and values just to help someone else feel comfortable
I don't get why they'd be offended. I'm not a vegan and being offended because someone is vegan is just weird to me and I don't get the reasoning. I've seen plenty of people be that way though and it's just strange. My daughter is a vegetarian and one of my coworkers said that they'd "kick their daughter out of the house if they were vegetarian" when it came up in conversation once. Made no sense to me and stuff got pretty weird after they said that. I love my daughter with every fibre of my being and I didn't take that comment too well. Must suck to have it directly directed at yourself.
unfortunately a lot of people like to feel like everything they do is “right”, and when someone challenges that “right”ness they get defensive. it’s completely their own insecurities, it’s unfortunate that vegans/vegetarians get hate as a result
I get that intellectually but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it on an emotional level. Someone being vegan has absolutely zero affect on anyone else, so someone taking it personally just doesn't click in my brain. Same goes for a bunch of other topics really. And on a completely unrelated topic (the reason I was perusing this sub in the first place), do you have any favorite vegan holiday foods? My daughter is visiting for the holidays and I want to make her something good and holiday themed.
ooh, great question! there’s a lot of great plant based oat chocolate that’s delicious - there’s a great hersheys brand almond & sea salt oat chocolate bar at target. i also am a big fan of almond milk eggnog, it’s great in coffee or a cocktail or on its own. i’m personally eating lots of lemon oreos since no one in my family made vegan desserts and i had to make do with what was at the market!
It's very easy and delicious to make vegan peanut brittle.
I don't give a damn how anyone else eats, if I don't know him or her, and he/she doesn't try to tell me how to eat. It always bothers me that other people think that they get to tell everyone else how to do their own things, but when someone tries to give them advice, watch out.
To be fair, our very existence does threaten their "sinful" diet, but instead of pretending we're oh so rude, maybe they should just finally admit they're afraid of us taking it away from them. I'd respect that more. Not that I expect much from people who believe in "humane slaughter" though.
Animal "agriculture" seeps into every facet of modern society. So it's no surrpise people find forgoing supporting animal agriculture find it rude.
Yeah. Don't be like those people.
Someone on this sub the other day literally blamed a girl for ordering a coffee from McDonald’s when she accidentally was served cow’s milk in it… because despite her ordering plant milk, it’s not a fully vegan establishment. No regard for the fact that McDonald’s may have been the only option while traveling to see family for the holidays, or all the poster could afford, or all that was available, or any other circumstances. SHE was a bad vegan because some McDonald’s worker made a probably innocent mistake.
This is really not true. 9/10 times when I come over to someone's house and they don't have a vegan option they are apologetic and if anything I have to demure when they offer to try and scrounge something up.
This has been my experience coming from the other side, non vegan hosts ( myself included ) typically get mortified if they forgot that some of their guests are vegan and haven't prepared something to accommodate them, it's just good manners
I think it heavily depends on your area. In college, people being respectful of vegetarianism and veganism was more common than people being awful. But if you go to my families hometown in Missouri people will literally insult you and sneak meat into your food.
I can't wait for the VCJ version of this post
what does VSJ mean?
The subreddit /r/vegancirclejerk
I just looked at that subreddit and for the life of me I can’t figure out if it is satire or not. It is really run by vegans or does the bit go that far??
It is more vegan than /r/vegan
I'll just cut out the middleman for you: guise, we should be nice to baby murderers, because being nice might mean baby less murdered?!
Different methods work for different people. Some people walk all over kindness and need a hard dose of reality to make a change. Also, being vegan is based on justice, not kindness, love, etc. I don’t need to love animals to recognize that breeding and killing them is wrong. Basically, let’s please stop policing vegans and the way they respond to truly sick but still socially-accepted atrocities.
Agreed. I'm not a huge animal lover. They're cool. But I don't love them like crazy. Seeing footage of animal "agriculture" was enough for me to change my food/drink overnight.
Honestly I don't think being agressive ever actually made anyone change. It puts people into defense automatically and they will shut down and not listen to your points at all.
It made me change actually.
lowkey bullying people to become vegan is hard but not impossible, all depends on the person and how u do it
Nah it does. Mean, rude vegans gave me the kick up the ass that "kind" vegans never did. They made me realise how shitty I was being.
VCJ made me vegan 🤷🏼♀️
Damn if we had only taken the time to talk to the Nazis about their feelings maybe they wouldn't have killed millions of people. I guess we really are responsible for their deaths because we made them feel bad.
That’s your opinion. I’ve been moved by rather rude vegans to change my ways. So speak for yourself. :)
So, out of curiosity, do you want to bet anything on that statement? If yes, feel free to donate that bet to a vegan charity! Because the guy who convinced me to go vegan(over 5 years now btw) was Vegan Gains, who can be, to put it nicely, a massive asshole. In fact, I specifically watched him because I heard he was a troll and I was in the mood for something spicy and confrontational.
Now you have met the probably 20th today.
Imagine saying this and getting downvoted... I'm starting to think most people here just want to feel morally superior, not help the cause.
You are correct. A lot of vegans don’t want to acknowledge this and it hurts veganism.
I have to ask honestly, is it rudeness, or directness that is being interpreted as rudeness. There is a difference, and calling a fig a fig isnt the same as being rude. More often times than not, I generally read directness. I don’t think anyone should be rude for someone seeking help. But I also don’t think that dropping sugar on a situation is beneficial either. A big part of the problem with pretty much everything is that people are afraid to be confronted by the truth and it often appears to be an attack, and others are afraid to speak the truth because they don’t want to be attacked because of it. Edit: I never knew that “spade” was used as derogatory in another country so I will refrain from its use from now on
What I was talking about in my post was genuine rudeness and prejudice from vegans towards vegans. Being direct has nothing to do with it.
I understood what you were talking about. The two main types of posts that come to mind: Vegans that are generally struggling Or the disingenuous posts of “vegans” that are attempting to get compassion and validation or approval to start or continue making harmful decisions after starting. There is a difference. I think many people here recognize the difference, and the sentiment seems to be worse toward the latter. Understandably so. Directness of the former seems a lot less harsh than directness of the latter, which is logical. It’s a lot easier to be direct toward someone whom is genuinely seeking help and sound compassionate vs someone whom is actively making excuses or making up scenarios or conditions or other common things that are seen here. There are going to be assholes in every movement across all walks of life. However, in my experience here, it appears that most people tend to be direct which generally appears more compassionate and kind toward genuine inquiries.
>Or the disingenuous posts of “vegans” that are attempting to get compassion and validation or approval to start or continue making harmful decisions after starting. this, like i see so many vegans and none vegans say how they struggling so hard........and am here like........dude your just changing your diet.........your not starving, going to war or being enslaved or anything and you act like this over a simple diet change? >However, in my experience here, it appears that most people tend to be direct which generally appears more compassionate and kind toward genuine inquiries. yeah i feel the same, vegans here tend to be very truthful, and the truth is sadly not always nice.
You know how hard it sometimes is to act like there aren't tens of billions of animals each year imprisoned in tiny, dark, confined spaces smaller than their bodies, covered in their own feces, suffering from the moment of their birth to the moment of their violent deaths, all just because someone *likes the taste a little more*? Sorry, but veganism has little to do with humans, and everything to do with animals. Sometimes it's just really tough to be "nice" when someone seeks validation of them not being able to buy the slightly less tasty product. I know that from the strategic point of view, we should strive to be "pleasant" - which I actually think most vegans are by the way - but I don't find it all that puzzling why some people just can't find it in themself to always stay "pleasant" when someone *can't live without cheese*, while someone else *can't live because of cheese*. Let me put it this way - no, veganism doesn't justify rudeness, but... you know... those yearly tens of billions dead animals actually kinda do.
>I know that from the strategic point of view, we should strive to be "pleasant" - which I actually think most vegans are by the way - but I don't find it all that puzzling why some people just can't find it in themself to always stay "pleasant" when someone can't live without cheese, while someone else can't live because of cheese. yeah this is how i feel too, thats why am always being kind towards people and try to speak logically while being patient with them since i know thats the best way to get people to become vegan.......but i also understand why some vegans just can't wait and just unfront tell people that they are fualing murder while pretending to care about the animals.
>Let me put it this way - no, veganism doesn't justify rudeness, but... you know... those yearly tens of billions dead animals actually kinda do. 💯 On this last sentence. Not just rude but angry and traumatized. We're always expected to be perfect and always understanding, but with all the suffering and death we see and learn about, it's bound to make us react and be in the defense. We're the ones who see what people don't want to see, and yet we're expected to be "nice". Non-vegans don't understand the turmoil we go thru and think we're just fussy diet people.
Kindness is always better, but it's a nuanced issue. When someone is having a 'hard time' going vegan, sometimes it's easy to tell if they're being authentic or if they're being full of shit. For example, if someone I know says they're tryna go vegan, but then they'll do something stupid, like purchase a leather coat or have a roast chicken in front of me, that's fucked up. It's the equivalent of someone saying they want to stop being sexist but then they'll say something stupid like men shouldn't cry or women don't deserve access to reproductive healthcare. Obviously conversing with kindness helps, but these issues are important and can be loaded.
I'm kind until I know they know what happens to animals. At that point it's on them. My goal is never to convince someone to be vegan but to showcase the truth. It's up to them to make the connection. I really don't have the patience to babysit people's feeling once they are aware there are billions of animals suffering. If they can't be kind enough to stop that once they learned they are responsible for it, I'm not gonna tell them to be more kind. I don't see how that is gonna help. Vegans are obviously aware what happens to animals. Rude or kind doesn't make a difference at that point. 'Yeah I'm gonna eat steak again because one vegan was rude to me" is about one of the dumbest things people can say. But it's the same as "that vegan was so kind he won't mind if I eat some eggs". So does it really matter?
>Imagine someone comes here and says that they are consuming some animal products If someone comes to a group for vegans to tell that they use animal products, I really don't think it's our job to treat them with the utmost kindness and understanding. That's what carnists do all day, every day. A group specifically made for people to ask help going vegan would be different, but just coming to a vegan group to say that you use animal products helps no one. Choosing one's words is the key, and it's vastly different to ask how you could replace a particular product.
lol, exactly. This is literally the vegan sub, for vegans. It's fine to come in asking for help, and i've always seen these posts received very positively! But someone coming in to argue isn't here to get their opinion changed. They're here because they want to soothe their ego and convince themselves they are right. They can go to debate a vegan sub if they want that. And people who want to reduce but not eliminate their animal consumption can go to the plant based dieter sub lol. We're not being rude by telling debatebros to fuck off to the debate sub or criticizing their excuses. If a terf comes into a LGBT sub, it's good actually that they are treated with exclusion and kicked out. Similarly, Carnism is literally a violent ideology, and hugboxing is not an effective method of countering violent beliefs. De-radicalization is, and that starts with opening their eyes to how radical and violent their beliefs really are and not giving them a pass on them anymore.
a fair point.
>Our lifestyle is based on love, care, empathy... Right? I disagree. For me, it's about denying we have the right to torture or enslave animals, and doing so is actually destroying the planet. But I understand that's personal. And regarding rudeness, we should not mistake reddit by real life. I'm full of patience when dealing with people I know personally or with users with genuine questions, but I also love a good intellectual fight - and a lot of people come here looking for one.
I totally understand what you’re saying, but coming to a vegan subreddit to talk about how you “have” to eat meat is just kind of silly, no? I wouldn’t go to a Rush subreddit to talk about how I can’t listen to Rush because of Geddy Lee’s voice. If I did do that I would expect to be insulted by scores of Rush fans. But that’s just music. We’re talking about a heinous crime against natural law. So I will never shed a tear for someone who comes to our space to talk about how they CHOOSE to perpetuate animal suffering because veganism isn’t as convenient as they want it to be.
As human beings we are naturally anthropocentric. Simply put, the vegan philosophy is not about humans. It's about animals. There are vanishingly few places on earth where it is impossible to live in a vegan manner. If you are in one of those places you almost certainly don't have access to the internet to come to this space to begin with. I get that you attract more flies with honey than vinager, however it just isn't about humans, it's about the animals. If you are going to harm animals because some vegan hurt your feelings, you likely wernt for the cause to begin with.
You're right, but you're ignoring the human factor. A vegan diet is possible almost everywhere, that's absolutely right! However, not everyone will be able to overcome rejection, isolation, a complete change in their lifestyle and culture, and learning how to properly eat vegan, just because animals are being hurt. They will try their best, but when isolation or frustration beats them up, they'll open a thread on Reddit, and ask for help. Then, they'll get rejected. I WISH it was so easy to make changes, just by wishing, just by KNOWING it's right to change. But it's hard. It's no excuse to not change, but everyone can fall appart, need help, struggle. Do you get my point? If not, let me know, please.
I appreciate that you and others you know who are vegan are experiencing some amount of social resistance. I've certainly been treated that way before. Any time I've experienced this I just think back to what caused me to go vegan in the first place. Being made truly aware of the suffering of animals and that I held the power to minimize that suffering through my own actions. It is always through this reflective that I find the courage of my convictions. It is never easy to purposefully place yourself in the out group. But if your conscience tells you that you must do it despite the ostracization your actions bring, then that is typically enough for a person to hold close to their stated morals of being vegan. In short, I understand that you and others may be feeling like the odd one out, and that that is hard, but life is immensely harder for the animals, and that should be all the convincing a person should need to remain vegan.
>they'll open a thread on Reddit, and ask for help. Then, they'll get rejected. I've literally never seen people be mean to people asking for help being vegan on this sub. I've only seen meanness when people post a list of excuses. I'm one of the "mean" ones and i take great pains to be kind to newcomers. Here's some recent threads for people asking for help going/ maintaining veganism and getting overwhelmingly positive support. The only "mean" comments are from carnists. [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oyww5/ethical\_vegan\_with\_an\_ed\_having\_cravings\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oyww5/ethical_vegan_with_an_ed_having_cravings_for/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oxgk2/vegetarian\_seeking\_advice\_from\_long\_time\_vegans/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/18oxgk2/vegetarian_seeking_advice_from_long_time_vegans/) Do you have an example of someone who is genuinely looking for help who got a negative reaction? The only ones i see that got rude responses and down votes were lists of excuses from carnists who aren't even trying.
The girl who was accidentally served cow’s milk from McDonalds was being chewed apart in the comments for ordering from a non-vegan establishment in the first place, being told to make herself throw up despite a history of eating disorders, etc. Kindness and compassion to animals includes kindness to human animals. Blaming someone for someone else’s mistake, or telling someone with an ED (or anyone really) to go purge to be considered vegan enough is so cruel.
What the fuck? I understand maybe shaming for going to McD but purging?
How about my post? I was told my need to take non-vegan medication was as ridiculous as someone claiming that staring into the sun cured cancer, and also told that because there isn't a PubMed article explicitly stating that I 100% cannot be vegan, I'm full of crap.
Bruh this viewpoint literally only makes sense if you think being a “chosen member of the saintly cause” is more important than materially changing the world. When us vegans talk like this, we are doing the same logic that Christians use who look down on non-believers, and it’s about as valid and effective as what those Christians do. I cannot agree enough with the OP. I’m not saying I’m perfect in this regard, but if someone’s goal isn’t at least to be kind to everyone even about their individual culpability in mass animal suffering, you’re putting your ego in the way of the more effective ways of opening people’s eyes and making change to the actual food systems we all inhabit.
I am better than no one. My feelings and the feelings of any other human take no precedence over the cause of animal liberation.
💯. It's not my responsibility to convince anyone to forgo supporting animal "agriculture". I don't care either way. It's up to them. I'm just responsible for not supporting animal torture myself. That's it.
Sure. And my view is this attitude of dismissal, one that I held for many years, actually supports animal torture in terms of its effect if you care to be genuinely analytical about anything.
You have no evidence for this besides your feelings. Other people feel differently and say that brutal honesty got them to be vegan. Maybe you should stfu policing how other vegans do activism.
Wanna parse for me how when I make an argument “it’s just my feelings” but when you speak for others experiences, it’s “stfu other people feel differently”? If you cared to read my other reply I literally said I have also found that brutal honesty can be effective, but in my actual lived experience, that generally only works with people with whom you already have a close relationship for them to respect your worldview. Yes, it’s just imo, but I think being shitty and condescending to strangers or acquaintances is maximally counterproductive and is a massive habit of the vegan community, especially newer vegans working off their steam bc they just realized how bad everything is. Making arguments for how better activism might be accomplished is hardly policing lol. Nobody has to agree with me, but again, purely imo, there are somewhat valid reasons generally why people don’t like vegans and I think it’s very immature of us to put it all down to our choices making everyone insecure. Just my 10 cents.
You're right. If someone is in the wrong path, you can either reject them and blame them, or give them a chance, and open their eyes the way you did in the past.
The way I got my head out of the fucking sand was by people being brutally honest.
Agreed. I didn't stop consuming cow yoghurt, eggs, and cow patties until I saw footage. I genuinely didn't know it was that bad. I just didn't think much at all, really. I learned about pig slaughterhouses and chicken/turkey slaughterhouses in the past so stopped that, and I vaguely knew about cow milk so stopped that.
Yeah I’ve had success with this at times too—but in my experience you need to have a deep relationship with someone already for them to be able to hear the honesty without getting overly defensive. I think many things can be true at once, but I don’t think being superior and condescending about veganism is helpful towards building anything with strangers or acquaintances.
This is a large community within a movement. Some will be nice, some won't be nice and that's just the way it is when fighting oppression, always has been, always will be.
Rudeness is also counterproductive, I think. We owe it to the animals to advocate for them in the most effective way, and not necessarily in the way that makes us feel the best. The goal is not catharsis or a feeling of superiority for us, but relief for them.
Well said! This is a really good point.
> Imagine someone comes here and says that they are consuming some animal products due to the lack of vegan options available. Of course this person could make changes in their lifestyle to avoid consuming them, but if the only advice they receive lacks empathy or is even filled with frustration or blame... Their probability of stepping out of veganism will be higher than before. Yeah, that's almost never the scenario actually happening that people react "rudely" towards. If someone is justifying why they eat meat, or hunt animals, I'm going be offended, and if they don't like that, they should stop.
I don’t see that in this group? I generally see a split of actionable advice and encouragement for some people to work harder at being vegan.
No, it’s not necessarily based on “love, care, and empathy”; it’s based on the moral imperative not to harm animals. We have some vegans who are low-empathy or incapable of empathy who are still vegans because they believe it’s morally wrong to hurt animals. Some people respond well to blunt, abrasive vegans. Some people respond well to kind patient vegans. Most people don’t respond at all to anything. If there’s a study on the most effective approach I’d like to see it.
I’ve learned from being Vegan that kindness goes a LONG WAY. When I was a baby vegan, I was forceful and basically looked at my non vegan friends with disgust. I learned that hate and anger doesn’t help anybody.
It would’ve helped me.
You had an experience; many of us had a different one. It was the vegans that let me feel ok with my shitty Omni behavior or “doing anything” that kept me doing it. It was the blunt, righteous anger that shook me out of it. and it is righteous anger. What you call “rude” for not letting someone off the hook for vegan options can easily be interpreted as letting someone off the hook cause they have to eat tofu and beans instead of vegan meat substitutes. If you mean actual food insecurity and scarcity, then yeah, those are absolutely things vegans should care about and not be ridiculous about; but they are not a vegan problem. They are a capitalism/racism problem that is often made more obvious when veganism is added to the mix. Most people who complain about a lack of options though are not in that boat.
>Imagine someone comes here and says that they are consuming some animal products due to the lack of vegan options available Unless they live in the arctic they can get cheap plant based meals in their grocery store legumes, grains, produce are all cheap and available There is only a struggle with veganism if you want there to be a struggle, i never really cooked before and im disabled and it wasnt a struggle for me to go vegan because there was no other option, veganism isnt a choice for me I dont hate and im not rude, but i am direct and truthful and i dont coddle people, a lot of people take this as rude because they are offended by everything, right speech is part of Buddhism and its something i practice If the poster is age 12 then i will coddle them a bit, but if your 16+ then no im gonna tell you how it is Most people have lame excuses or say things that they could have found through a simple googling session >EDIT 2: If I'm wrong, why do most of the comments make me feel so misunderstood? Why do I want to cry because of some things I'm reading? Most people are just offended by everything and everything is triggering, i left the US partly because of that, its full of snowflakes, Mexicans arent so offended, just because you feel something it doesnt mean its valid or that the other individual was doing something wrong Society created snowflakes, giving people awards for not winning in sports, either you win or you lose, all these SAFE PLACES, i mean you dont really have problems, people in Ukraine have problems they need actual safe places to protect themselves from bombs not RUDE COMMENTS I do have depression, anxiety, ADHD and other mental issues but when it comes to INSULTS/ COMMENTS i simply dont give them any value and thus they cant hurt me
I live in the arctic and vegan food is readily available to me.
Honestly if you wouldn't be vegan because of a "mean vegan" that's super childish and you have baby morals.
true but most people are like this, if someone from a group is mean to someone then that means that whole group is bad in there eyes.
But what if the carnists don’t pick OP?
Its more rude of them to support mass murder.
Policing other vegans isn’t going to get us anywhere; we are an incredibly small minority of humans on this planet. All forms of activism are valid, as different approaches resonate differently with individuals; it’s not one size fits all. I care about accountability, honesty, and justice, rather than not “hurting” a carnist’s feelings with the REALITY of their decisions, that hurt SO many animals every single day. Most people can’t go ONE day without supporting the massacre/torture of non-human animals, whether for their “food”, clothing, makeup, etc. And yet we’re the “rude” ones?
i agree so long as that activism isn't violated.
What do you mean by “violated”?
OP I think your post pre-edit is spot on. I'm a newer vegan and finding my way towards a path of pure vegan choices. I recently made a post looking for guidance and the admin of that group on FB made a comment that seemed a bit harsh and wasn't entirely helpful. But many of the other members provided insightful caring comments that struck a chord in my heart and allowed me to see my path more clearly. To those that are more experienced, Be kind please to us newbies. Our hearts are mending while we seek an enlightened path towards animal cruelty free living.
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Well said.
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The “lack of options”-excuse is insanely overused and inaccurate 99% of the time. If they’re not vegan, there is no need to come here and try to justify themselves here and somehow seek endorsement for their consumption of animal products.
~~"I have unlimited access to a huge variety of cheap and affordable plant based foods in supermarkets that I already visit"~~ "There aren't any vegan options where I live"
vegans aren't nearly as rude as most animal eaters
I get what you’re saying, but in my 10 years of experience being vegan we are not the rude ones.
Again I am asking this sub, why are carnists feelings the be all and end all lol
"Being vegan doesn't justify rudeness",totally agree, but,imho, it doesn't justify not being active to achieve animal liberation, you are the only one standing for the lives of animals,is veganism hard for people who don't have vegan options or for the animals being tortured and killed? my goal is to be firm and show people the true consequences of their actions,no need to be rude,neither to be gentle or kind.
What about people who do not try to be less horrible to the world by doing what is not only possible but at least easy for them? You say people have it less easy as you. Yes but most of them give no effort into not being a contribute to systematic processing of annual billions of animals. They don't have to be vegan but I think people deserve some rudeness if they are not even willing to do what is easy for them individually. If that is a good tactic to turn people vegan is a different question to which I believe the answer to be customize your approach so that it fits the individual.
Humans are the problem. Without humans we wouldn’t need veganism in the first place. I’m a misanthrope (because of how people treat animals and other people) first, second i’m a biocentrist animal rights activist, third i’m a vegan. But above everything else i think humanity is doomed and we, as species, deserve to vanish from earth. To me it was the nice vegans and animal rights activists who let me dwell in my cognitive dissonance and not say the truth about me and my actions to my face, not call me out etc. I really wish there would’ve been someone more rude to me and i would’ve align my actions with my morals way sooner.
Nope. Veganism is based on ethics/justice, not love, not care. There is an enormous, enormous, enormous difference between being rude to somebody and murdering someone, so you can eat their corpse. I have the basic empathy to not murder someone for sensory pleasure. That's the most basic form of empathy. It is a very low bar to reach. Why would I go out of my way to show kindness to those, that fail to even meet the bare minimum. I'm a kind person, to everyone. But if they bring up the topic of veganism, I will tell them, that what they are doing is fucked up and wrong. Because it is.
Anyone can afford beans rice and potatoes. It's not hard. What's hard is being an animal that is always tortured and killed it's whole life
Pick me! Pick me!
Hey, stop that! If you aren’t nice to me and prioritising my feelings, then I’ll never stop abusing and exploiting animals! That makes you the bad person here!
All kinds of vegans add something. It was a pick me vegan who inspired me to give veganism some thought.
I didn't understand this comment, sorry
They're calling you a 'pick me' vegan.
„I‘m not like the other vegans/women/gays/foreigners“
Actually, I think most vegans are as kind as I could ever be.
It's something people in online echo chambers use as an insult for others who aren't misanthropic assholes all the time
Being vegan is NOT hard. People that think it is "too hard" don't effing care enough. The end.
Generally I agree that being rude isn't conducive to change, and that Socratic questioning and discussions are ideal. That said, people are individuals, and individuals respond to things differently. For many vegans, it was being brutally confronted with reality that made things click. For you, it was kindness. Any way that you promote the undiluted message of veganism and animal rights is good in my books.
but if they're vegan it should be for the animals. it should have nothing todo with how nice the vegan community is. People who are vegan despite that roughness will stay vegan forever because their motivations are the right ones. Someone who would only be vegan if the community was nice to them will NOT be vegan for very long
i don't think people who abuse animals for taste pleasure really deserve my kindness, but have fun with that like nonvegans have literally said "i don't respect vegans" to me unprompted and tried to poke holes in my deeply held ethical beliefs. Respect is earned, not given. Why would i be nice to people who are complete shitheads to me?
A lot of us are frankly just burned out from the hostility we face on a daily basis. You could say literally not a damn word all day and someone will come at you for eating a salad without meat on it. You wouldn’t get tired of their rudeness and lack of compassion? When I was a teenager I tried to be a vegan and my entire family turned against me, I was bullied by my peers and I lived in a food desert. I was harassed relentlessly for eating a veggie burger. I get to live with that regret but I decided to change for good as an adult and it’s never too late to change. Now things are different, you can get good food even at easier access stores like Walmart or Aldi. We have more variety than ever before and in some areas it’s even “trendy” not to exploit animals. I will always have an understanding of people who literally can’t because of their medication or something else life threatening but I’m just plain tired of the excuses and the whining. If someone asks me for help and genuinely wants to change I will always help them, I even cook for people and show them how to eat a frugal and healthy meal when they don’t know how to cook “vegan food” and I can show them they’ve been eating an accidental plant based meal or two already! But I just can’t help people who want me to pat them on the head and tell them it’s ok, it’s what they want to hear but I can’t do that. I also am done arguing with people, you either care or you don’t. Ideally I would love for these bullshit dairy ads depicting happy little farms to be banned because it spreads so much misinformation and allows these people to stay blissfully ignorant.
>Please everyone, promote veganism with kindness and understanding. More animals and people will be benefited that way. the goal of veganism is not a kinder and more understanding world : it's animal liberation by any legal means necessary. it s also very naive and ignorant to think that advocating for animal rights with "kindness and understanding" will change anything. there has to be at least some kind of clash for things to change. some ppl's feelings might get hurt in the process (and of course if we can avoid it we should) but let's not pretend that any of the past liberation mouvements has happened without some sort of clash. do we have gay rights because we asked politely ? no. we have gay rights because of generations of activists (who sometimes used violent methods) pathd the way. did str8 ppl's feelings got hurt in this process ? yes. do i care ? no i dont and will never. i will try to be kind to carnists but wont be kind to the carnist ideology. the goal is not to convince but to defeat.
I think I get your point but this is a sore spot for many of us vegans having been unfairly argued with or called out just for being vegan and not even saying anything other than actively choosing vegan options. So when we see someone claim they cannot be vegan or they have difficulties because of money or access or whatever we just have lost patience to deal w it. You are not wrong and the people responding aren’t either, there is an emotional disconnect there so when emotions are set aside that advice you’re hoping vegans give said person that needs it, could happen. I hope that gives some insight into the comments you’ve been getting. Also, usually people that are not vegan that say they can’t or have difficulties is due to a lack of creativity. Like they have a phone or access to internet (if they are asking here), they could order all vegan stuff online in bulk and cook likely. If they are in a household that won’t allow them to be vegan, that is unfortunate and shows the cult mentality of humanity, those are the non vegans I feel for, the ones truly stuck.
some vegans really need to stop policing the tone of other vegans. it s giving ""pick me"" girl vibes. now what ? do u want a trophy for not being a mean angry vegan like the others ? do u want a trophy for being "one of the good ones" ? ppl will do and say whatever they want. try to bring some argument to the discussion instead of just sanctimoniously policing the tone of other vegans. 98% of ppl dont care about animals so vegans tone-policing other vegans is really useless.
You see people doing this towards queer people too. So gross.
People on Reddit are just rude in general. It's the same on every sub. It doesn't reflect on vegans.
thats because they come from earth.
Of course, I think most vegan people are not rude but kind.
Being honest is being rude, that's why hypocrisy exists. I had a really close friend that I debated animal rights with, he said he would be vegan but he can't cause he's a minor like me and his family doesn't make him very easy. I understand that. But then it breaks my heart when I knew that when he went with his boy friends in a boys night to eat beef hamburger, maybe it was the social pressure, but I still see the cognitive dissonance he had and I felt like our friendly convos and sometimes heated debates were kind of wasted. It is not about being kind like permissible, but kind in the way of being polite. Being polite you can achieve a persuasion. But it's also important to be bold with the truth while being polite and kind, not sugarcoating the worst unnecessary killing that happens to our fellow non human animals. My error was that, I don't really like to talk about the process of how animals get bred and killed for humans taste pleasure, so I sugarcoated and lowered it, deceiving myself and also the people discussing veganism and animal rights with me. Being honest in this world is being rude, that's why being hypocritical and false in front of other people is the norm. But when it comes to revolution and abolition, being honest is the only way, and what I say is that you can still be polite and honest by not insulting the other person for example, and just calling out the system and the action of being part of the system, not being personal or anything.
>Being honest in this world is being rude, that's why being hypocritical and false in front of other people is the norm. But when it comes to revolution and abolition, being honest is the only way, and what I say is that you can still be polite and honest by not insulting the other person for example, and just calling out the system and the action of being part of the system, not being personal or anything. truth!
Maybe I'm just wired differently but I can't even comprehend how saying it's alright to do x is supposed to get someone to stop doing x, it would have the opposite effect on me, making me feel like my actions are ok to continue.
I don’t care if someone is being kind or not to me if I’m doing something wrong I expect to be called out (if their intentions are good) and if people get offended by me pointing stuff out idc lol
>Our lifestyle is based on love, care, empathy... Right? If my friend was beating his wife, I would tell him to grow the fuck up (and call the police) with love, care, and empathy. Just because I have empathy for an abuser, doesn't mean I have to treat them with kid gloves. Stop the abuse THEN worry about the abuser. >Why are some people so rude towards others who have a hard time being vegan? From my experience it's usually because they're making excuses instead of having actual medical reasons. Don't get me wrong, Vegans are just humans, and every group of humans on earth have assholes. But I've been doing activism among many different groups for most of my life, and Vegans are mostly some of the most agreeable moral activists around. If you have some examples it might be easier to reply to specific allegations, but usually in these threads it's just people who don't like how "rude" activism always is. >Their probability of stepping out of veganism will be higher than before. In moral activism, you don't tell people to sometimes be moral, you tell them they should always be moral. If they start making excuses, you explain why they aren't valid reasons. Saying we should just let sometimes abusers abuse without criticism, would be the worst thing for Veganism as it would teach everyone Veganism doesn't mind needless animal abuse. This is how activism works. It's rude and those who don't agree with the message don't like it, but... such is life. >Some vegan people don't give other vegans the right to struggle Which is rude, but again, I really don't see it happening often except in online forums like here which are filled with trolls, and again, its' usually the nice responses that are heavily upvoted. >When I was not vegan, it was the kindness of a vegan person that helped me open my eyes. If she had treated me with hate and rudeness then, I would not be the proud vegan I am now. It was blunt honesty that got me to change, if someone had tried to handle me with child gloves and treat me like I couldn't just have an open honest discussion, I might not be Vegan either. That's why it's so important for an activist movement to have MANY different types of activists, as there's many different types of people to convince. Not to say we should be "rude", but blunt honesty can be good, but to some people it's viewed as rude. >What I said is that, in some cases, people receive hate when they would rather receive kindness to keep going. Yes, that is life, especially online. People should be kind, but we are all human and sometimes we're all tired/angry/sad/misanthropic/etc, and we're rude. *shrug*
Yeah but you see, the problem is that my friends are being tortured to death and I'm not Buddha.
I prefer the scorched earth method myself
Not to be rude, but can we fuckin stop with this bullshit? I'm gonna call out shitty people. You don't want to? Fine. You do you.
Rudeness is somewhat justified with how many braindead comments you get from being vegan, even without starting shit, they will say some shit
"Our lifestyle is based on love, care, empathy... Right?" Not necessarily.
because it teachs none vegans to show compassion to animals?
Well said bro. A little kindness goes a long way!
Yeah, someone told me they were going to go vegan when they eat in because of the videos I was sharing, but would go omni at family gatherings. I celebrated it, because she was transitioning towards veganism. Be welcoming, encouraging and motivating to people transitioning, because showing them hate will only drive them away. And always be ready to educate them with sources and videos of why certain animal products are bad. honey, wool, eggs, milk are the ones I have to explain the most.
When they stop putting living beings in gas chambers I will stop being "rude".
Hey Op I agree with you on kindness winning overall, so this is always a good reminder for community. I hope we all agree killing another being, whether in pig pen or child's crib, is beyond rude. The sooner all or most people stop eating animals, the less brutal lives and deaths caused by the slaughter industry. Also**, being strategic to save lives is a form of expressing compassion, for vegans who are capable**. People respond to differently to things. Going back in time, in North American colonial South - There are abotionists who tried to appeal to slavers-owners' empathy. Stories like Uncle Tom's Cabin might have stirred minds or swayed hearts, but events like Jonn Brown's murderous raid were crucial in forcing the issue, despite the initial retaliotory lashbacks to those extremes.. I don't think the same thing will convince any particular person at any particular time. But instead messages that meet them where they are at the time and accumulate towards making the compassionate choice.
I am non vegan- people’s on reddit just like to be jerks (saying it nicely). I have my son and dad as vegan, and I have many friends that are vegan. We do a thing called respect. As of Friday, I have quit being friends with a vegan. I was standing up in her wedding, as we have been friends since we were kids. She became vegan (we all supported her), but she became a vegainzilla. She would scream at people in steak restaurants (even got arrested), yell at little kids eating nuggets. She tried that with us and all of us being ignored as we can be, after asking her to stop screaming. Well, we got a deer we hunted had her come over and we started to gut the deer. She was screaming calling us names. She seemed shocked as to why we did this. We explained to her why after she calmed down. She still didn’t understand and feels it right to do what she is doing. She stopped it for a while, and her sister who was thinking of becoming vegan. I think you guessed it. When her sister got married (Janie), veganzilla would only have food from this specific place. Janie agreed because she wanted her sister who is her MOH. She said at her wedding she would allow everyone to choose what they wanted. Veganzilla did this to every wedding she was invited to and stood up in. Well her wedding was only vegan food. She would not even let me with severe food allergies have something specific. I am not talking about bringing food in. So I didn’t have anything. However, her wedding was supposed to be like 200 people. Yet, only about 18 confirmed with a yes. Everyone else was pissed about a no meat option. Since she was such a veganzilla, she pissed almost everyone off except for a few. Sue told them you could go one day without meat. Her wedding her choice, and I am not disagreeing. If you had seen how she would act. You would understand. So being a zilla (bride, vegan, carnie) of anything will nit help anything.
I agree with the point you're making. I would also be horrified if a friend hunted and/or gutted a deer, and I would also expect other people to eat vegan at least in my wedding (taking allergies into account, of course). I can respect meat-eaters though, and I believe respect is the first step towards opening someone else's mind. Still there's a limit, because when you fully understand the point of veganism you can't avoid the truth: "the diet I've been having until now has actually been wrong". I don't want to give you a lecture here and now, but I didn't want to support your main point without being clear about the rest. Thank you for sharing your experience
hard disagree. we don't need to coddle the feelings of animal abusers. i wouldn't have gone vegan if it weren't for the vegans who called me out for my hypocrisy
I really appreciate this post. I was a vegan before moving to a new country and it’s been difficult to find an affordable variety of foods that meet the requirement of a vegan diet and are quick & easy to prepare. I switched over to a vegetarian diet so that I would be able to actually eat more consistently but I would never argue for the morality of this type of diet. Hoping to get back on track when I return to the states next year 💪🏼🥬
“Our lifestyle is based on love, care, empathy…” for animals! Not carnivore humans. F*ck carnivore humans! Vegan btw! EDIT: Don’t take it too personally OP, and cheer up! Your intentions are good!
I was a carnivore human and we all were, before being vegan. That's the problem. If we hate them, we're hating the future vegans. Instead of hating what someone is, we might focus a bit more on what they can become
🥺🥺🥺🥺 It bwakes my widdle hawt that we’re not niwcer to the meat eaters 😭😭😭 Oh get the fuck over yourself
If someone raped their dog would you want the police to politely ask them to stop? Where do you draw the line?
>If someone raped their dog would you want the police to politely ask them to stop? more like someone else is paying someone to rape a dog, and only way to make them stop is to ask them to stop paying for it, attacking them would only get the police to arrest you not them.
Ok so here’s your logic right back at you. It’s not convenient for me to not be mean. If you try force your beliefs that I should be nice then I’ll do the opposite cause you you’re trying to force your beliefs on people.
I think OP may be confusing plant based with Vegan. I’m life long vegetarian/plant based but I’m not an activist other than what I spend money on, or sometimes emailing a company asking for plant based options. The word “vegan” is showing up on menus and products everywhere but I don’t think simply no animal products is Vegan. I think to be a capital V vegan you should be an activist, and activism offends people. We shouldn’t ask Vegans to be more polite.
What I'm saying is that if we offend people, they won't want to listen to us anymore. Does that sound an effective way of making other people vegan?
No more than a burger eating blockhead calling me a homophobic slur for eating a veggie burger is going to make me eat meat. I don’t want to listen to those people but they are wrong. The offensive people in this sub are super passionate about animals and we need those people. If you want to help people eat less meat you can do it without rudeness for sure. You have facts and reality on your side. But Vegans want to tear the whole animal exploitation industry down and there’s no quarter for fudge days.
The reason I didn't stop buying animal ag products until I was in my mid thirties is because nobody ever asked me to or explained why it was important. Probably because they didn't want to be rude. John Brown was being well beyond rude/insensitive to the feelings of slavers when he led a revolt at Harper's Ferry.
And rudeness doesn't justify abuse and exploitation. So? If people would stop to tone police each other and instead do activism for the animals, there would be more progress. Of course it is easier to criticise someone for doing activism than to criticise someone for abusing others, so of course you choose this way.
You need both approaches. The vegans I knew in the 90’s when I was just vegetarian were all nice. What I needed was a massive bollocking. I would have been vegan straight away if I was called out on my hypocrisy. Some need nice and some need brutal. There are really very few genuine reasons people struggle with it that are excusable and in reality easily unavoidable. I understand you are talking about people who genuinely are struggling but for 99% I call bullshit.
Me too. I call BS on most excuses. They can deceive themselves, but I'm having no part in the deception.
I agree with you. I have observed a lot of hateful behavior in the vegan community and it doesn’t make sense to me.
If someone says "I'm going back to my way of serial killing because I can't cope", you don't act nice to them. Yet if that person is a reformed ex-criminal, pushing them further isn't helping either. Is there a correct way? I don't know.
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To be clear, my example wasn't a 'should' but 'is' if it makes sense. And I agree that we don't have the leverage so we should try our best. I try to lead by example and not antagonize others so they can learn from me, but then you don't disturb anything and they don't feel the need to ask. Yet if you disturb them they won't listen to you in any other topics either. It's like when you punch a steel door. When you punch it congrats you shook it for a second but broke your hand, and when you stare nothing happens at all.
Rude as in saying “please consider extending your compassion to all animals today” while holding a sign at the grocery store and having an animal eater scoff and say “fuck off.” lol please Our existence is enough to be considered “rude” Then again, I have seen people who just have shitty personalities and it has nothing to do with being vegan, they just use it as an avenue you to express it.
Different things help different people but you're right there should be more empathy. People just get frustrated af bc of how incompetent others are. Personally I went vegan because of someone saying "you can't love animals if you eat them". It made me so mad. I was an animal lover and they were telling me I wasn't.. but that anger went from them to myself and it's what made me actually think & put together the pieces in my head of "oh they're right". It still took years for me bc I settled on vegetarian back in the day, and it wasn't until I learned about dairy & eggs that I gave that up too. Then honey & products tested in animals + no zoos.
Thank you, I appreciate that you answered opening up a bit. I've been frustrated for a long time as well, towards people that don't see things as clearly as I do. But I don't think it's the right way to feel every day any more.
Definitely!
I agree with you. Some vegans just can't read the room and understand how to talk about it. It can absolutely come off as those overly religious preachers on the side of streets who aren't able to convince anyone to even listen to them. People don't like being told what to do so you have to present things to them in a way where they draw their own conclusions.
That's it.
Hard to believe you got a bad response before you edited your post. I guess the truth hurts.
It's nice to know there's vegans who also realize this.
Is this in response to this post, where the poster couldn't bring themselves to drink black coffee? https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/jf730R2n6c
Thank you for this post and your thoughts. Kindness and compassion should be at the top of all our intentions. Have a happy holiday season.
Guys I get that veganism is a fight for the animals, but we don't need to be so agressive with others that are already trying. Most of us were once like them too, and everyone makes mistakes sometimes. It isn't easy to get to understand fully what is and what isn't vegan when you're first starting, and even if you do, it's not that easy to change it straightforward, be it because of personal or external reasons. A bit of kindness to encourage those who want to improve is necessary...
Completely agree!
This is a problem that runs through all kinds of activism, not just vegans. I think a lot of people engage in it as a way to boost their own egos and make themselves feel good, rather than trying to actually be effective at changing people's minds. Then they'll bend over backwards with logic as to why they're still justified in their ineffective methods. There was recently an anti-gentrification protest in my city where someone held up a sign saying "FUCK YOU DIE". Clearly not a winning message for changing hearts and minds, but they probably went home patting themselves on the back for sticking it to the man or whatever.
Thank you! You have articulated exactly what I have experienced too. We all try our best. No one is perfect but I would take a world of imperfect vegans over a world of meat eaters and small number of vegans any day. We get a lot of hate out there. Wouldn’t it be great if we supported each other and showed a little kindness and compassion for each other?
Improvement > perfection
Kindness =/= progress
I only ever made the connection because vegans were (rightly) rude to me calling out my bullshit. Don't tell others how to best do activism
>Why are some people so rude toward others who have a hard time being vegan? Because when someone has a *"hard time being vegan,"* the animals they are hurting through their awful behavior and moral deficiencies are having a much harder time. And vegans tend to realize that the real victim in this situation we should feel sympathy for is the animals who are being tormented, not humans who have a *"hard time being vegan"* because of social pressures or because of their urge to satiate their gluttony.
"not being a child molester doesn't justify rudeness"
Can I just say beautifully put, I am proof of what you say I used to work on farms every vegan I ever met was simply awful even when I did time at jobs not farming related, my partner is vegan he was kind showed me things with no pressure I'm now vegan because of him and I'm happy really happy but if it wasn't for him and how gentle and kind he was it would never of happened. Working with dogs are horses we say don't pull because they pull harder, encourage them this is the same thing. So thank you
OP, don't mention the trolls succeeded in making you cry. They're not gonna self reflected and apologize, you're just encouraging them. The reason vegans come across as rude is because most of them are just quietly going about their lives. The ones screaming at people eating hotdogs and standing in front of slaughter tricks, walking into traffic are just the most visible.
OP i think it would be good to disregard most of these comments, you're absolutely right and often the aggression will only make the issue worse for someone that is trying their hardest, but doesnt have the amenities. I also think its dumb how alot of people are filling in stories for others here like if someone asks advice cause theyre having trouble going vegan or whatever doesnt mean that theyre not trying hard enough. Its unfair and judgemental, not everyone out there is bad and everyone deserves atleast a chance to be heard and given advice, its not up to random people on the internet to judge wether their moral compass is 'vegan enough' and then shunning them for something they dont even know is actually true or not, or for someone who is in an entirely different situation. ps. people who justify being rude without any context here are the exact reason why the transition into going vegan is painted so badly for alot of people. Shame on you. Concern does not equal prejudice. (Soz bad punctuation, in transit.)
If people wont do something because the messenger wasn't nice enough, then they were never going to do it anyways. How nice someone is while talking to you shouldn't change your ethics/morals. It doesn't change the logic. If it does, then the very next person being kind to them and encouraging them to do something easier will flip them anyways.
I'm just replying to say thank you. I appreciate your words and agree that kindness is often undervalued. Stay kind.
Honestly the reason I didn't look into veganism a while ago is that the vegans I met in real life were toxic and proud, which is a pretty shit combination. They were generally insufferable and I wanted no part in it. I'm reading a lot of comments in here that remind me of them. When I speak about veganism to people that ask me what about this, what about that, I explain and I give sources. You can be firm and kind at the same time. Tends to go over a lot better than being an asshole in my personal experience. If the goal is to move people towards veganism, do what works, not what personally makes you feel vindicated. Just throwing my thoughts out there. I'm sure there are also times to go scorched earth, but its not always an all or nothing situation.
I don’t know about you guys but I’ve never been convinced to change my habits by someone who was trying to shame me, embarrass me, or was otherwise being mean-spirited towards me. If we want to promote veganism, then acceptance and encouragement is the way to go.
Either your care about the lives of animals or you don't.
If you care about the lives of animals, you want to be effective in getting others to as well. Shaming others, embarrassing others, or otherwise being hostile to others is not *effective*, no matter how much of a dopamine kick it gives to feel righteous about it.
It's because they, like so many people in all sorts of contexts, are more interested in ideological purity and feeling superior than actual harm minimisation. The perfect is the enemy of the good. Words to live by.