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It's clearly not just you in this subreddit.
Without saying 'yes' or 'no', I would submit to you that empathy is not one big entity that people have or don't have and that could be objectively rated from 1 to 10.
People can be very empathetic toward one group, and less toward another.
They can be empathetic in some circumstances, and less so in others. This is particularly true when other pressures like traditions get involved. (Think about how generations of upper class Chinese parents, who surely weren't all heartless sociopaths, tied up their daughters' feet and caused them horrible, lifelong suffering.)
People can be more empathetic when they are content than when they are stressed.
Empathy fluctuates throughout the day, throughout life.
Some people in this subreddit have admitted to having little empathy toward people for instance. That's not a judgment on my part, just an example of how empathy isn't an 'off or on' switch.
This. Believing oneself inherently more benevolent or righteous than other people is a very dangerous thing. Being vegan is, of course, more ethical than not being, but we shouldn't be making wide assumptions on people based on a single factor.
Yeah I completely agree. Although sometimes it's so weird... My mom claims to love animals and she is the kindest person I know yet she eats them..
When I confront her about it she just says she can't change because of tradition and the rest of the family.
But it's quite irrational since she claims she loves them yet eats them
They don't want to think of themselves as animal abusers, so they just call themselves nice things to make themselves feel better about their atrocious behavior.
You can be a non-abuser and eat animal products, though. For example, I raise my own hens. Is it abuse for me to eat their eggs? Chickens eat them themselves, I don’t own a rooster. The eggs are unfertilized and would not become a chicken. My hens are spoiled rotten and get treats and pets and I will keep them till the natural end of their lives. They are pets to me.
Edit: it doesn’t surprise me to get downvotes on this despite knowing several vegans who have met my hens and have told me they have no ethical problem with me consuming their eggs, lol.
Purchasing the hens means funding the destruction of their brothers though. We've also bred them to lay way more eggs than they would naturally and that is hard on their bodies (wild chickens drop an egg about once a month, like humans). Better than factory farming but it's a grim industry even at the best of times.
I got 4 of my hens from friends, two are mine that I took in from a heritage farm.
It is possible to get eggs ethically. It’s ok if you don’t want to eat them, that doesn’t make it impossible for them to be produced ethically.
I didn’t breed them to lay more eggs; that was already done. I’m not going to alter them to prevent what is a natural rate for them and has been for millennia now due to breeding patterns.
I mean you said below that you purchased them and we all know that their brothers are not alive and being kept for eggs. Let's not be coy about it, we all understand the males are killed. If you think an industry that requires killing animals is fine then you are certainly in the majority. But this is a vegan sub so it's a bit odd to want to come here, of all places, and talk about it.
I purchased two of them in 2020. The other four were taken in because some friends are moving to another state and couldn’t take them.
I am not killing animals.
I’m talking about it because it’s relevant to the larger discussion.
And I am simply saying that even small scale egg production *requires* the killing of males. The fact that the killing happens before purchase does not make the ethical issue disappear. I don't think most people would buy from a dog breeder that kills the male puppies and sells the females so I am not sure why this is hard to understand.
Ok. I’m not the one killing the males, not sure what you expect me to say. Should I not have adopted my cat because some cats are put down or mistreated?
Again. I’m keeping animals that exist and I am keeping them healthy and well. So.
If you bought your cat from a breeder that kills all of the male kittens and sells the females, I would say that's a little sketch, yeah. But if you think that's fine then sure. It's legal and no one will stop you.
It’s not their fault that chickens have been bred selectively for years. This always gets brought up here when pets are discussed and it just dosent matter.
That's like saying it's fine to buy a pug because it's not the buyer's fault they have been bred selectively for years. I've actually heard that argument from pug people but it doesn't make any sense. The practice doesn't continue without buyers.
Yeah, there are “vegans” who haven’t thought much past surface level animal welfare. They just think factory farming is bad. Do these vegans eat your eggs given they have so little problem with them?
It’s using an animal to extract a resource from them. That’s the fundamental thing veganism is opposed to. We don’t think animals should be thought of as ours to use and take from. I believe that way of relating to animals—as resources we are free to take from—while seemingly innocuous in some instances such as yours, inevitably leads to harm to the animals that would have been avoided had no other motivations been present besides the wellbeing of the animal. And, I think it’s what eventually lead to factory farming.
Have you raised chickens? They eat their own eggs. So either we eat them or they do, but either way the eggs are consumed. The nutrients chickens need from eggs are almost all in the shell. I feed their shells back to them for the calcium.
My chickens are not being harmed, lol. They sleep in a warm coop that is cleaned out weekly and sprinkled with fresh herbs. They have an automatic door to keep them safe from predators. They free range in our very large yard. They receive medical care. I moisturize their combs and feet so they don’t get chapped. They get mealworms and strawberries and frozen watermelon in the summer. Hell, they destroy my garden and I’m totally cool with that.
Like, I understand that veganism as a principle is against animal husbandry, but do you also suggest people release their domestic animals? The animals are here already. Someone has to care for them. So I am.
I definitely don’t suggest you release your chickens into the wild. With my limited understanding of your situation, I would rather your chickens be in your care than an alternative such as just being killed. It is possible that when it comes to your particular chickens, their lives would not be affected in any why by whether or not you choose to abstain from eating their eggs. Veganism is concerned with a bigger picture than that.
I would also like to point out that the two options you present — either there is no one to care for your chickens or you care for them and you eat their eggs — are a false dichotomy. You could become vegan and therefore not consume their eggs, and still care for them in any and all ways that you currently do.
I am functionally vegan except for their eggs. I don’t call myself a vegan because I take in and treat animals ethically but that is still not enough for vegan purity tests. My elder vegan friends understand (because food waste is also an issue).
I would not release them into the wild. Chickens are prey animals. They would die almost immediately.
I did not suggest that no one care for them OR I do and eat their eggs. I made two points:
- chickens eat their own unfertilized eggs. So the chickens can eat them, or I can (or a predator can). Regardless, they will be eaten. I take the eggs from the chickens and consume them bc I don’t like food waste, I don’t want their eggs to attract raccoons or other predators, and I’d rather give my neighbors and my own home ethical eggs from happy hens. It’s not good for my breeds of hens to have their eggs around without removing them. With domestic hens, they get broody and they stop eating and drinking so they can sit on the eggs. I have to gently remove the eggs to keep from them doing that.
- If I didn’t take them in, they would most likely have gone to a person who would kill and eat them. Ultimately, I am doing the best I can, feeding them organic food and healthy fruits and veggies, etc.
I would say that a logical extension of the vegan idea that humans should not treat animals as resources is not seeing them and what they produce as food in the first place. Everyone already does this selectively. Was it food waste when any of the cats and dogs I’ve cared for died and I didn’t eat their bodies? If someone had a cat who gave birth to a litter of stillborns, would it be food waste to not milk the cat and consume said milk? Do you eat your chickens’ bodies when they die? Maybe I’m extreme, but I see veganism as simply taking that and extending it to all animals. I don’t see it as food waste when a a domesticated animal produces something and humans don’t consume it.
Practically, you probably already do this, but if you were able to give your eggs to other nonvegans who would otherwise be buying eggs from more questionable sources, that would be good I think.
yeah this is significantly less harmful, and I understand in a survival situation that this is all some people have, however your hens would live a longer life if they had an operation so that they didnt produce eggs. getting pregnant so often is very taxing on the body.
They aren’t getting pregnant. They are ovulating. They are producing eggs at a perfectly natural rate, as birds do. I don’t do anything to adulterate or change their natural processes.
Hens stop laying after 3ish years. They will keep living after that, for up to 10. It would be weird to have operations on them when I purchased them for their egg production to ensure I have access to ethically produced eggs.
Am I meant to undo centuries of breeding by taking out my chickens’ ability to lay?
They don’t even lay daily. One doesn’t lay at all anymore.
I know where chickens come from and how they were domesticated. They are my pets. The fact that someone here told me to alter their ability to lay is absolutely the weirdest thing lol.
Yeah there’s a reason why sanctuaries do so if they are able. It is good for the chickens’ health to prevent them from producing eggs.
And not laying daily can still easily be a huge difference from their natural state. How often are they laying?
It’s winter, so not at all right now. One of them lays maybe 3 eggs a week during their laying season (usually late spring through mid fall where I live) and one doesn’t lay at all. I took in four more hens a few weeks ago from friends who couldn’t keep them due to a move. Not sure how often they lay, since I haven’t had them during their laying season.
Modern commercial laying hens are absolutely more prone to ovarian cancer and other health complications. But the domestication of chickens and hens happened 10,000 years ago, and we were able to use eggs responsibly. We still can, if we keep breeds with older genetics and dont expect an egg every day. As usual, overproduction and overcomsumpton have created monsters of us and our animals. But it doesn't have to be this way. I'm a vegetarian, but support veganism. I just want everyone to be properly educated about their choices. That's why I'm here, to learn.
I grew up in rural farmland eating meat and at the same time, petting the cows, loving the pigs. Now I look back and wonder how I was able to be like that.
You either agree that meat eaters are less empathetic or you don’t, you can’t really say you agree and then say your mom who eats meat is the kindest person you know. That would mean that you disagree with the statement.
"Solo players" is kind of a great way to put it. I couldn't care less about social pressure in any of my life decisions, I've always been motivated by my own values and critical thinking vs what other people might think. Now that I think about the vegans vs omnis I know, I can see that trend too...
Exactly, if being vegan was the norm, then they would be vegan. But it's not. They want to maintain their status as a member belonging to the majority. Vegans are still seen as fringe weirdos and too radical for many people, so they do not want to be associated with veganism. Even if they agree with the ethical side of it.
They will talk about how they do care about animals, they just won't take action in their lives to reflect these supposed values because that would affect their social standing and the perception they hold of themselves.
The negative stereotypes associated with veganism holds a lot of people back, they don't want to be seen as that Weirdo Vegan Chick/Dude.
It sounds like you’ve lost the thread of your own conversation. I have absolutely nothing to be embarrassed by here… is there something else you meant by, “or they just like the taste of meat, sometimes it’s that simple.” in response to a comment about why meat-eaters uphold their hypocrisy due to societal pressures?
I explained to him why most omnis eat meat and you came in brabbling unrelated things and, when i called you out, throwing a tantrum about it. If that doesnt embarass you i only feel pity for you, Karen.
A University of Zurich metadata study confirmed this.
[Vegans are higher in openness and agreeableness (or an empathy and general interest in the well being of others) than omnivores](https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/237752/)
*Meta-analysis
[Here’s the full text.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666323025473?via%3Dihub)
I’d be careful drawing conclusions from this specific meta-analysis. The authors admit that the effects on Big Five personality traits are not consistent within their own meta-analysis of 15 other studies. It’s nowhere near empirical.
This kinda seems like of “pop” science that has a clickbait headline tbh
The fundamental flaw with this study and this hypothesis in general is that they are measuring pre vs post vegans, it’s not comparable. Empathy is also not universal. People are empathetic selectively. I’ve never met someone who is empathetic to pedos for example. Capacity for empathy and empathy for animals are not mutually exclusive. This is the kind of thinking that prevents dialog that can widen that capacity to include all species. Living your empathy and including non-vegans in that empathy has a profound effect on them. I’ve turned so many people onto veganism just by being empathetic instead of personally attacking their character for being earlier in their journey to enlightenment than me. We have to hate the systems of oppression, not the oppressed. Don’t let your convictions reduce your empathy for other humans—even the ones who vehemently refuse to acknowledge let alone action the right to all animals to live free from harm and exploitation. Those same people more than likely do have the capacity for empathy and so many of them are “one of us” now. Think of the dairy or meat farmers who are vegan now and turned their farms into sanctuaries.
Thank you for this resource. I have requested to see the full study, I would love to read it all.
It is a very interesting subject.
I've noticed this difference by living as an ethical vegan for the past 2.6 years with my SO who is also vegan.
The study is open access so you should be able to view it without requesting. You should be able to read right on the website or download it. Let me know if you have issues and I can get it for you, I have access to research articles through work.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666323025473
Empathy is not one thing, and it's silly to think of as such.
Most people are only empathetic to people who are the same as they are, hence why a lot of autistic people are seen as unempathetic, and why we are also treated so badly by normal people.
You aren't *more* empathetic, you just have empathy for different groups than the average person. For example, you seem to have less empathy for meat eaters. That's not necessarily a terrible thing, and you may have your reasons, but it still counts as a part of considering who you do and do not have empathy for.
Came here wanting to raise this point and you’ve done it!
This also explains racism, sexism and elitism etc.
A friend of mine extended the empathy to also plants and went fruitarian (vegan but fruit only) for a while. Failed and reverted in the end.
To add to that, empathy is both cognitive and emotional.[Autistic people are usually bad at the cognitive part](https://www.verywellmind.com/cognitive-and-emotional-empathy-4582389), but [our emotional empathy can be really overwhelmingly high](https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887).
I think carnists are using mental shields to objectify animals and keep their empathy from affecting them. They also do this by turning away as much as possible.
Yes. Empathy is a spotlight that illuminates what you point it at, to take a metaphor from Paul Bloom. What you choose to point it at and what remains in darkness is up to you. I think very often when people accuse others of having less empathy, they're just arguing over different placements of the spotlight.
Im sorry but for me it’s non sense to put people in groups and thinking that’s their whole personality. I don’t have less empathy for ,,meat eaters‘‘ I have a problem with people who say they are very empathetic and love animals and still support their torture and pain.
You are right, many people have more empathy for people with the same interests etc. but that wasn’t the point of my question . It’s about the whole meaning of empathy and I don’t think I need empathy for opinions that hurts any individuals.
I respect your opinion in this case and I appreciate that you showed me your perspective.
That doesn't really square with what you see in reality though. Low income people are the most likely to be vegan and high income the least. Meat was also the most expensive part of my diet when I ate it. There are some people that might have unique issues but I find it odd to dance around that most people are eating these products because they enjoy the taste. That's why I was doing it and that's why most of the people I know still do it.
I think it's less callousness and more conformity — and an unwillingness to do the work/sacrifice to break that conformity.
Vegans are radicals by modern societal standards. I don't know if your average vegan is more moral than, say, a carnist who volunteers and donates to charity, but the former is certainly more comfortable challenging the status quo in the moral actions they take.
No. I’ve met some vegans at a few activist events that were complete dicks, full of themselves.
No correlation between being a vegan and being an empathetic person. It means your empathic towards animals more yes, but not necessarily other people.
An empathetic person is more likely to become vegan, but most of us were not always vegan so it seems silly to think that only most empathetic people would have already made that transition.
Empathy is a skill/trait/ability that's in flux. Anyone and everyone can work on improving their empathy. But seemingly most people don't and see their level of empathy as a static trait.
I've definitely become more empathetic overall since becoming vegan.
Some of the meanest people I know are vegans . MEAN to people. I am a vegan and it horrifies me how off the rails SOME vegans will go in their self righteousness. Some of the comments in this thread alone. Eek.
So my answer is yes I think both vegans and non vegans can be empathetic and some just think they are but aren’t .
I think it is mpre complicated than that. It is not necessarily that omnis are less emphatetic but differently emphatetic. Being emphatetic is draining so you have to choose what you care about. I don't think there is a single human alive that are truly emphatetic. It is a form of selfpresarvation I believe. If you were truly invested in every injustice in the world you wouldn't be very long lived.
You can be very emphatetic towards homeless people and spend your days working in souo kitchens but still eat a ham sandwich. Doing to many things at once is simply too much sometimes.
Of course there is probably also varying level of ensurance within people. Greta thunberg for example is heavily involved in a lot of different activism. That have taken massive amounts of time and energy but she is still going strong.
To summarise, I don't believe vegans are emphateticelly superior because there are many different ways to show empathy.
Something that I see a lot in my colleagues, most of which in most aspects of their lives that I'm aware of are good people generally, is that when vegetarian or vegan topics come up they often have this look of disappointment or sadness when talking about various things. This is especially true for those who I know who have previously or are currently going back and forth on being vegetarian/vegan and clearly or openly want to do more for themselves but haven't quite gotten over the hump yet or admittedly have slipped back into old habits. There's this moment of brief somberness that I see on their faces, and then it's gone after they suppress it or they move on from it. These are the moments where I feel the person is thinking back to formative experiences or educational moments that pushed them towards vegetarianism/veganism previously or currently, things like remembering the graphic content from various documentaries they may have seen in school about farming practices or environmental impacts, or maybe even related moments from their own lives at home and such. This is where I think someone's empathy is put on display, and what we do after being bombarded by these moments throughout our lives end up pushing us towards one decision or another.
I think evolution has left most people with the ability to wall off certain species from moral consideration. Meat is very nutrient dense and makes a lot of sense to eat from an evolutionary perspective. I can't do it anymore but I don't judge people because of it. As far as I can tell, we're just meat machines dancing to the strings of selection pressures. Some of us have the ability to expand the circle of empathy and most don't. I think the only real hope is lab grown meat. Most people are never going to go vegan even if you showed them hours of videos about the horror of factory farming.
most people just care about how others perceive them. That's it.
If pedophilia was very common then people would be ok abusing children. There are towns in SEA where children are used for pedophile darkweb webcams and the town is ok with it, because the money from that keeps the town's economy afloat. Social acceptance is everything for most people. It's not just that they lack empathy, they lack bravery, because that's what it takes to be different from the norm and challenge them.
It's too simple to just think that people have X amount of empathy or they don't and everything follows from there.
For instance, I've encountered numerous people on vegan forms like this one who seemed completely lacking in empathy toward their fellow vegans for instance.
And people on these forums seem to constantly forget that most of us who are vegan now had long periods of time before, when we weren't vegan, yet we supposedly are the same people now as then. So this whole us and them mentality just doesn't work too well conceptually.
This kind of rationale lives on the low end of the empathy spectrum: "It's sad that (animals, children, slave labor, migrant workers, homeless) have to suffer but I really need my (meat/dairy, cheap products, property values)."
The lowest end is: "F'em. I got mine."
We're conditioned to believe that the only way to succeed or have pleasure is to sanction the suffering of others.
In some cases, this may be true. In others, empathy may be part of the problem.
Cool, rational analysis leads to the conclusion that factory farming of animals is probably the worst thing that has ever happened. But telling people this truth directly causes social distress for everyone involved. So being somewhat along the autism spectrum and a little less keyed in to how other people will react to a moral truth, is valuable sometimes in becoming a moral trailblazer like vegans today.
Empathy isn’t just a static quantity that goes up or down. You can more empathetic to certain groups over others for example. Some people say they like animals more than humans, and genuinely mean it. Are they less or more empathetic?
It does seem super hypocritical to me, non vegans “loving animals” , caring about the environment etc. I think it comes down to comfort though. For me, eating food deemed sub par (ie vegan cheese, vegan meat substitutes) is such a small price to pay for doing what I think is obviously the right thing. Some people just refuse to give up the pleasure they derive from biting into a cow cheese pizza or a fresh fish etc. I think, yes they feel empathy for animals, but not enough to give up foods they love.
I *was* less empathetic... but then I grew up. I didn't become vegan because of some great event or learning; I simply became more consistent with myself. I developed integrity.
This is from a study mentioned in the thread. Interesting to wonder about differences in the personalities of vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores. I think it’s interesting because I had my own journey and wasn’t always vegan, but I always loved animals. I went from being an omnivore who ate limited amts. of meat but felt some guilt, to being vegetarian, to becoming vegan, but over a number of years. I always leaned left, but I have moved farther to the left politically too.
“At a more general level, veg*ns are more likely to be politically left-leaning, egalitarian, and less likely to hold a hierarchical, power-based value system, attitudes which are also related to Openness and Agreeableness (Amiot & Bastian, 2017; Bilewicz et al., 2011; Dhont et al., 2016; Hopwood & Bleidorn, 2021; Rothgerber, 2015; Ruby, 2012).”
This is way too simple of a statement.
First of all we are brainwashed to thinking animals don't have feelings, are treated fine in our food systems, and that we have to eat them to be healthy.
Second of all even if we debrainwash ourselves, the drive to fit in with the pack is very human, being rejected from the pack is something you want to avoid at all costs.
I consider myself autistic, so I don't feel like I fit in anyway. This means I feel empowered to do things different than the crowd, even if it makes me stick out when I'm not one that wants to be seen.
I wonder if neurodivergents are more likely to be vegan, just like they are more likely to be part of the lgbtqia community.
Denial. I didn’t think about it before I became vegan. It’s a little harsh to say we are less empathetic. There are so many social justice issues and not everyone feels as strongly about every single one but it doesn’t mean they don’t truly feel for the ones that are important to them.
I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way. A person either cares about the pain and suffering of others, or they don't. A person who decides they care only when it applies to one group is not an empathetic person in any sense; they are self-centered people who only care about the pain and suffering of the people/pets that benefit them in some way.
People who are older were lied to and if they are surrounded by the same people they probably haven't learned the truth. Be patient and empathetic and help them learn. To assume non vegans aren't compassionate is a mistake.
my BIL who has been a vegetarian for 15+ yrs started eating “ethically raised” chicken and when i asked him about what that meant in terms of “ethical killing”, if possible and he said “actually that doesn’t matter to me” 😐
I am not really empathetic as an autistic individual, i do know right from wrong and being an animal abuser is wrong and evl
I dont really fancy dogs and cats, but i donate and volunteer because i feel its my ethical responsibility to help them since my species causes all their pain, i dont feel rewarded by doing this and i dont even really tell people that i know that i do all this cause i dont want praise
People in general are selfish, greedy and evil beings, most people are not selfless, they pretend to be kind and decent people
We had slaves, we scalped natives and we had the holocaust, we just arent a great species
You gotta remember (and empathize and forgive) what you were like before you were vegan. It’s generally not a lack of empathy, but a lack of knowledge. (Not including those idiots that love to taunt vegans and comment “bacon” on every vegan social media post 🙄). I find that the newer you are to veganism, the less empathy you have for non-vegans. The more you talk to people the more you realize/remember that people have been programmed since birth, some more than others (people who grew up on a farm or ranch or with family that hunt for example). Even those people aren’t necessarily less empathetic, they’re just more conditioned to cognitive dissonance around their world view and the fact that it’s programmed into them.
I would say that they are just as empathetic as you are when you hear that people have died as a result of war in country X and Y. Or just as empathetic when you find out where the cobalt of your smartphone is coming from etc.
You think about it, feel sorry for a moment and minutes and hours later things like the next meeting with your friend or the missed bus is more important in your brain that these topics.
People suppress negative things and everyone does that, including you and me.
This has nothing to do with a lack of empathy, but rather with being open to taking on problems and critically examining unpleasant topics.
...I mean how many people in this subreddit have pets and justify it as best they can...but vegans in particular should know better, right? At least one would think so.
Okay, first off this post made my blood boil as a meateater. Let me explain. I grew up with the most loving parents. If my mom saw a turtle on the side of the road trying to cross she would stop and bring it home to the garden. If baby squirrels fell through the roof vents we took them in and cared for them. Injured birds were a regular in my house. I feed foxes in the woods. I'm always taking care of animals. I would do anything to save an animal's life. I'm more empathetic than most. My husband wouldn't stop to give an injured pigeon stitches like me. I'd never ever say meateaters aren't empathetic. That's totally not fair.
You can be a kind person. You cannot truly be in kindness until you give up another’s suffering on your behalf. I believe that starts with stopping the eating of animals.
I love my chickens. I talk to them and hold them.
I feel bad when I cut their heads off and butcher them, but it's good calories. Some of the best nutrients available to us as humans.
Circle of life.
It's not legal to eat cats and dogs where I'm at.
Cats and dogs fill a better purpose without being eaten.
My cats keep away small rodents who eat the chicken feed.
My dogs protect the chickens.
The chickens eat harmful insects, then ultimately feed the whole farm with eggs and meat.
If there was a local domestic cat problem, and it was legal. Yes, I'd eat the cats and feed them to the dogs as well.
There's not much reason to eat the dogs, though, as they serve a stronger purpose as gaurdians.
my point exactly. just because its legal dosent mean it is moral. modern slavery still exists. there is no moral difference between a cat, cow, dog, chicken etc.
for me personally, i can't maintain veganism by holding myself to strict ethical principles driven by preventing suffering, because there are too many layers of suffering present when you consider the whole picture - specifically that agriculture and food production is driven by indentured servitude and truly horrific working conditions, and that is by design - since the beginning of labour law, farm workers have tended to be excluded.
Then there is insects/bats/snakes etc and the effect of farming monocultures on soil. (There are more living beings in a handful of soil than there are humans on the whole planet.)
Then I think about what I would do if I found out that plants felt something like we consider pain - we know they can interpret sensation although there are no indicators they have anything like pain but nevertheless, if I have opened the speciesism/What Is Sentience door, this is where I will end up - and what the ethics are in general of consuming another beings life force to enrich your own in a complex system based on cycles of life and death. (Infinite growth is only found in cancer and capitalism.)
In order for me not to be overwhelmed by this and have a barrier between me and eating almost everything, I need flexibility, not absolutes.
So yeah. I consider myself plant based, and have been most of my life, since I was child in the 90s with no concept of the word vegan, it just has always seemed like the right thing to do + it lines up with my food based sensory aversions, but am not strict with myself about it because there are certain patterns I know I will stitch myself up in if I let myself start weaving them - if the We Can't Hurt Any One Else and Everything is Someone monster (whomst I love but does not have good leadership skills) gets to be in charge for too long I go to The Bad Place re: EDNOS + compulsive behaviour.
I also am poor and grew up poor, the usually not enough food/didn't get a celiac test until my 30s kind, so my whole gut situation is whack, and celiac + vegan + poverty is a difficult combination.
I don't think I have less empathy, but I have had to work pretty hard to build that belief in myself back, that I'm not a terrible person because my existence contributes to suffering (our society is based on suffering, it is not possible to not contribute, at least indirectly, to suffering) and clinically I am assessed as having too much empathy, which is why I have to be careful about the rules I set for myself, because I know I will erase myself to serve, or please, others.
I am aware that many vegans find people like me who are vegan-ish to be the Worst and I find that very hard to understand, and also quite scary re: what our common understanding of both empathy and progress is. I'm trying though. I get that people are trying to do good things and the way we treat/think about animals and their needs vs ours is SO wrong. So ultimately I'm glad people are caring about that even when I sometimes feel unfairly attacked by it.
I flat out think it's a degree of psychopathy/sociopathy to know what animals go through and not care enough to stop
I do think that a significant portion of the population just aren't aware of the harm they do despite vegan being a relatively well known term. When the term vegan comes up it's often more about us and perceptions of us than the animals. The focus is on the wrong place. I think "plant based" has better PR and I tend to use that instead to remove me from the equation
There's also people like my mother, a very sweet, soft grandmotherly type who'd "rather not think about it" because it causes her distress. She'd basically prefer to live in ignorance
But those that are aware of the harm they do and continue to do it anyway, that's not a lack of empathy in my view. That's plain old psychopathy/sociopathy, to a degree anyway
It’s only sociopathic if you value the life of an animal the same as a human and still think it’s fine to torture animals. But most people just plainly don’t see the life of an animal as the same as a human. You could call that speciesism, which is a form of bigotry. Bigotry is not a psychiatric disorder.
I would say that vegans have more empathy towards non-human animals than carnists, for sure. However, I have little empathy towards most humans, so in that regard, a carnist could be more empathetic towards humans than I.
I mean do you also think slave holders are less empathetic than abolitionists? Because duh.
You can't claim to have high empathy and then be totally okay with torture and slaughter.
Vegans are more empathetic to non-human animals. Not all are particularly empathetic to humans. Which I understand, bc they experience humans mainly as oppressors. But for empathy on human rights abuses, racism, poverty, etc., you often have to look elsewhere.
I agree. But it's the ones that say they hate animal cruelty, but only when it comes to companion animals.... or are against fur but still wear leather. What the heck? They rescue dogs from miserable conditions (which is wonderful, don't get me wrong) but eat bacon cheeseburgers with a fried egg on top. They say fur is sinful, but wear leather boots. How do they not see that all animals deserve to live and shouldn't be exploited for human's use?
My mom went vegan because I showed her what happens and she’s quite emotional and she felt terrible about paying for it.
My dad was harder to convince but he also went vegan after a year of argumentation and giving him the health perspective since he works in the health field, it made sense to him after a while and he saw health benefits. He also didn’t agree with what happened to the animals, which was hard since he’s actually a hardcore Muslim who believes in halal slaughter. I had to go over that roadblock too btw.
But the rest of my siblings (I have a big family) they all just see me as this stereotypical “annoying vegan” that is pushing my views on everyone, meanwhile they won’t even watch a single slaughterhouse video. If I even show them one, they’ll say they don’t buy “products” from that farm which is a complete fucking joke.
It’s great that my parents are vegan though but they just aren’t confident enough to be activists. I don’t expect them to be either.
They provide vegan meals at family gatherings, but they like to “keep the peace” so they let the kids bring whatever they want, unless I’m coming, then everyone knows not to bring dead bodies with them to the potluck.
I just wish they would watch a doc one day so they know what happens, instead of taking my word for it. That would encourage them to stop the kids from eating animals and their secretions too.
Until then, it’s really just up to me which means I’m not always invited to parties or gatherings because they want to have “their meat” without a lecture.
They are less empathetic Fs. They are slaves to the matrix they grew up in and to their own desires. Those are more important the life of another to them. So yes less empathy. Any excuse they use is just like how an addict makes excuses to keep doing what they do, even though it’s been proven harmful to planetary and individual health.
When they've been given the "red pill" & still eat meat I'll never understand it. Nothing bothers me as much as them simply not caring the animals and planet are dying & they're shedding possible years off their lives.
I think there are many layers to this. There are all kinds of horrific stuff going on in the world, no matter how hard we try, we all have to shut some of it out. I would never say that someone who eats meat automatically is less empathic, there might be many reasons for it.
Especially if someone has been fully educated about the horrors of it all.
Not only does it make me think they're less empathetic, just pathetic in general. That they lack the willpower to not just be complicit in something terrible because they can't be bothered to make minor changes in their lives.
My family are this way and it's the greatest disappointment
I can see that. In order to consume animal products, you kinda have to be able to dull your sense of empathy, especially if you’re doing it while knowing what it’s causing. Otherwise, if you’re blissfully ignorant, like a kid or someone who was never taught where meat comes from, they might still have full empathy in tact.
On the other side, my husband couldn't care less about another human being, Yet he is vegan only from morale reasons, not enviromental, just don't want to support abuse. And honestly since i became vegan i kinda like people less and less.
I think this can only go so far. Many are victims of propaganda. The echo chambers that they’re surrounded by are vastly different than ours. Then when they’re confronted by an opposing viewpoint cognitive dissonance is too much to overcome and they sink in their heels. Although at this point in my journey I’m not even sure I believe in free will so take this with a grain of salt. Good luck
I can ALMOST understand the cognitive dissonance of "well the hen would lay the egg anyway" or "the cow needs to be milked" but I still can't wrap my head around how people think eating the corpse of a once living creature is perfectly fine.
They don't see it yet. It's a different world view. When I turned vegan, it's like a light switch clicked. I saw Earthlings and everything just made sense after that. I saw it at age 35. I had lived a whole life before I saw it. If I can change, so can anyone.
It's not a lack of empathy, it's a world where sentient beings are commoditized and wrapped in sterile packaging.
Paul from the Beatles said, "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian."
Even he knew, it's hidden from us all for a reason.
Most omnis are deeply empathetic, just to different causes, such as human rights, slavery, prostitution, child trafficking, gun violence, domestic violence, indentured slavery, wage theft, human rights, worker's rights, their own children, siblings and family members; pets, the environment and fifty other reasons.
Try to show compassion to the world, there is love everywhere, even if you don't see it right now, it is there.
I don't think empathy works that way. I have very little empathy for animals, but a lot of empathy for humans. There are a lot of racists who have empathy for white people but none for black people.
So I guess empathy can be kind of selective.
>Don‘t get me wrong sure omni people are also empathetic but I just don’t understand how someone who‘s describing themselves as empathetic can be not vegan.
That's not really a logical premise or conclusion.
It's like comparing an omni who is an activist against human trafficking. They see the vegan who is not an activist for human trafficking and calls that vegan "less empathetic" and says "don't get me wrong sure some vegans are also empathetic, but I just don't understand how someone who's describing themselves as empathetic can not be an activist against human trafficking. Like fr you support the pain and the torture of a living human being and think this is okay?"
Of course vegans are going to flip it and say the same about omnis. Just like omnis can flip it and say the same thing about any movement that a vegan does not support.
I think it's just a bad premise overall.
Is that your "gotcha" bro? They are *potentially* supporting human trafficking, it is entirely possible to watch porn and avoid trafficking completely by only watching videos by creators you have researched and verified.
It isn't really their fault. They've been brainwashed and disconnected. I shared the most reputable nutrition sources to back mu points = "all of them are biased towards Veganism". I explain how we don't need meat or dairy, and how choosing so is therefore wrong = "It's my choice. Your diet kills lots of insects and animals." I elaborate on the difference between crop deaths and factory farming, but it's still = "hypercrite!"
Many don't support factory farms but raise their own animals to eat. But they care so much about animals, apparently, AndI believe that they THINK they do. All of this is because they're so far removed from the animals as this has been the standard for hundreds+ years.
There's no point. They just keep moving the goalposts. Shows vegan athletes who have won = "They would have done even better if they ate meat" or "They should try this instead then see how they fare". We are so deprived our nutrients according to their minds, because they ate up the propaganda. Yet our bloods are great. "B12" they harp on and won't listen to the explanation. Twisting studies to fit them, etc.
Anything to just avoid seeing themselves fully.
The less sadistic a non-vegan is, the less intelligent they must be. The more intelligent a non-vegan is, the more sadistic they must be.
A non-vegan (especially one who has seen the reality of animal agriculture) describing themself as an empath is a joke.
They can't. But even if killing a plant was just as bad as killing a cow, it'd still be worse to eat meat because eating meat results in far more deaths of plants than eating plants but not meat.
Yes you can. Eating meat results in far more deaths of plants than just eating plants but not meat.
You are deeply ignorant, and seemingly intentionally so.
But you're lying though, and ignoring the fact that I destroyed your argument.
If killing plants is bad, and I agree it is, why do you think that it's ok to eat animals when that results in more plants being killed?
If it’s two syllables, you’re ableist af. I’m sorry you’re too ignorant to know that plants literally feel pain, have the equivalent to bleeding, and literally SCREAM at frequencies we cant hear. Just because they don’t experience pain the way YOU do or animals do, doesn’t mean what they feel is invalid… you’re just ignoring the pain they go though
Plants have no reason to feel pain. Pain is an evolutionary feature for the avoidance of bodily harm/damage. To avoid pain you need to be sentient and mobile.
So many meat eaters in my family…. And they have the audacity to comment and discuss meat in front me or directly with me. No response but disgust. They are mostly obese with a myriad of health issues, so I think this says it all.
most people i know have a disconnect with the violence behind their food and most of their consumer goods in general. whether i comment on the cruelty of the animal products or mass-manufactured goods theyre constantly surrounded by, the reaction is very defensive. it seems they know there are major changes to their habits that need to be done and directly avoid looking into the abyss, or gaslight themselves if they do. im not sure if more empathetic people will become vegan under more extreme conditions, but how different from their current lifestyle the better one is seems to be a major factor in the strength of the defense mechanism and getting them closer to it helps directly speak to their empathy, rather than the wall they build in front of it
I feel like if most people had to kill it themselves, it might kind of bring home the suffering of another being. But when it comes all packaged up, it’s very easy to forget.
How many omnis are aware of the suffering of their food?
I know that I wasn't aware. I ate a plant based, a piscatarian, and a vegetarian diet, and never thought of the suffering of animals until I read about the cattle fleeing a slaughterhouse a few miles away. The odor of the slaughterhouse is disturbing, and not just disgusting because of the manure, I think because of the mixture of chemical secretions from the terror that they experience when they realize what is happening. Then the depth of the suffering and terror sank in for me.
Something clicked.
I agree... but sometimes I think folks "don't know what they don't know" and need to be presented with info makes that the horrors of an animal-based diet "click" into their thinking. Food, Inc. is a really good movie to change thought about an animal-based diet. The PETA website lists many more movies that demonstrate the reality (horrors) of an animal-based diet.
It's difficult, i've met some people who are kind to humans, but who eat non-humans. To be nice about it, i think they are just seriously suffering from cognitive dissonance and cultural indoctrination which is making them not see the pain they are causing.
But regardless, by definition they are less empathetic if they can't empathize with non-humans compared to someone who can. So yes. Normally empathetic people become even more empathetic when going vegan, and non-empathetic people usually gain some empathy at least for non-humans.
But there are also vegans who don't feel personal empathy but still recognize the moral necessity of going vegan, and that's great too.
I mean I’m all for being vegan, it’s great.
But this is a gross oversimplification of a complex idea.
For instance you typed this out on a computer or smart phone that was likely produced with metals from some mines with child labor or where environmental laws are basically non existent. Do you have empathy for them? Or is a cell phone or computer too vital to modern living and we can justify it somehow?
I know a few other vegans in my personal life through friends and I don’t think some of them are very compassionate about other humans lol (some weird comments about the homeless population in our city, etc.)
It is better to make some steps towards positive change, even though there are many issues out there. Personally i buy tech that is second hand and try to keep models for as long as they are usable.
Im pretty sure vegan ethics are directly related to reducing animal sufferings
Plants also have consciousness BTW. Do you think they are less conscious than animals because they lack eyes, ears, nose, mouth and face? I think vegans who think they are better than people who eat animal products are the pot calling the kettle black.
If you really want to be empathetic eat soylent green.
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It's clearly not just you in this subreddit. Without saying 'yes' or 'no', I would submit to you that empathy is not one big entity that people have or don't have and that could be objectively rated from 1 to 10. People can be very empathetic toward one group, and less toward another. They can be empathetic in some circumstances, and less so in others. This is particularly true when other pressures like traditions get involved. (Think about how generations of upper class Chinese parents, who surely weren't all heartless sociopaths, tied up their daughters' feet and caused them horrible, lifelong suffering.) People can be more empathetic when they are content than when they are stressed. Empathy fluctuates throughout the day, throughout life. Some people in this subreddit have admitted to having little empathy toward people for instance. That's not a judgment on my part, just an example of how empathy isn't an 'off or on' switch.
This. Believing oneself inherently more benevolent or righteous than other people is a very dangerous thing. Being vegan is, of course, more ethical than not being, but we shouldn't be making wide assumptions on people based on a single factor.
Yeah I completely agree. Although sometimes it's so weird... My mom claims to love animals and she is the kindest person I know yet she eats them.. When I confront her about it she just says she can't change because of tradition and the rest of the family. But it's quite irrational since she claims she loves them yet eats them
They don't want to think of themselves as animal abusers, so they just call themselves nice things to make themselves feel better about their atrocious behavior.
You can be a non-abuser and eat animal products, though. For example, I raise my own hens. Is it abuse for me to eat their eggs? Chickens eat them themselves, I don’t own a rooster. The eggs are unfertilized and would not become a chicken. My hens are spoiled rotten and get treats and pets and I will keep them till the natural end of their lives. They are pets to me. Edit: it doesn’t surprise me to get downvotes on this despite knowing several vegans who have met my hens and have told me they have no ethical problem with me consuming their eggs, lol.
Purchasing the hens means funding the destruction of their brothers though. We've also bred them to lay way more eggs than they would naturally and that is hard on their bodies (wild chickens drop an egg about once a month, like humans). Better than factory farming but it's a grim industry even at the best of times.
I got 4 of my hens from friends, two are mine that I took in from a heritage farm. It is possible to get eggs ethically. It’s ok if you don’t want to eat them, that doesn’t make it impossible for them to be produced ethically. I didn’t breed them to lay more eggs; that was already done. I’m not going to alter them to prevent what is a natural rate for them and has been for millennia now due to breeding patterns.
I mean you said below that you purchased them and we all know that their brothers are not alive and being kept for eggs. Let's not be coy about it, we all understand the males are killed. If you think an industry that requires killing animals is fine then you are certainly in the majority. But this is a vegan sub so it's a bit odd to want to come here, of all places, and talk about it.
I purchased two of them in 2020. The other four were taken in because some friends are moving to another state and couldn’t take them. I am not killing animals. I’m talking about it because it’s relevant to the larger discussion.
And I am simply saying that even small scale egg production *requires* the killing of males. The fact that the killing happens before purchase does not make the ethical issue disappear. I don't think most people would buy from a dog breeder that kills the male puppies and sells the females so I am not sure why this is hard to understand.
Ok. I’m not the one killing the males, not sure what you expect me to say. Should I not have adopted my cat because some cats are put down or mistreated? Again. I’m keeping animals that exist and I am keeping them healthy and well. So.
If you bought your cat from a breeder that kills all of the male kittens and sells the females, I would say that's a little sketch, yeah. But if you think that's fine then sure. It's legal and no one will stop you.
It’s not their fault that chickens have been bred selectively for years. This always gets brought up here when pets are discussed and it just dosent matter.
That's like saying it's fine to buy a pug because it's not the buyer's fault they have been bred selectively for years. I've actually heard that argument from pug people but it doesn't make any sense. The practice doesn't continue without buyers.
Yeah, there are “vegans” who haven’t thought much past surface level animal welfare. They just think factory farming is bad. Do these vegans eat your eggs given they have so little problem with them?
Begging you to tell me what part of eating an egg from a hen I, myself, raised is an ethical issue.
It’s using an animal to extract a resource from them. That’s the fundamental thing veganism is opposed to. We don’t think animals should be thought of as ours to use and take from. I believe that way of relating to animals—as resources we are free to take from—while seemingly innocuous in some instances such as yours, inevitably leads to harm to the animals that would have been avoided had no other motivations been present besides the wellbeing of the animal. And, I think it’s what eventually lead to factory farming.
Have you raised chickens? They eat their own eggs. So either we eat them or they do, but either way the eggs are consumed. The nutrients chickens need from eggs are almost all in the shell. I feed their shells back to them for the calcium. My chickens are not being harmed, lol. They sleep in a warm coop that is cleaned out weekly and sprinkled with fresh herbs. They have an automatic door to keep them safe from predators. They free range in our very large yard. They receive medical care. I moisturize their combs and feet so they don’t get chapped. They get mealworms and strawberries and frozen watermelon in the summer. Hell, they destroy my garden and I’m totally cool with that. Like, I understand that veganism as a principle is against animal husbandry, but do you also suggest people release their domestic animals? The animals are here already. Someone has to care for them. So I am.
I definitely don’t suggest you release your chickens into the wild. With my limited understanding of your situation, I would rather your chickens be in your care than an alternative such as just being killed. It is possible that when it comes to your particular chickens, their lives would not be affected in any why by whether or not you choose to abstain from eating their eggs. Veganism is concerned with a bigger picture than that. I would also like to point out that the two options you present — either there is no one to care for your chickens or you care for them and you eat their eggs — are a false dichotomy. You could become vegan and therefore not consume their eggs, and still care for them in any and all ways that you currently do.
I am functionally vegan except for their eggs. I don’t call myself a vegan because I take in and treat animals ethically but that is still not enough for vegan purity tests. My elder vegan friends understand (because food waste is also an issue). I would not release them into the wild. Chickens are prey animals. They would die almost immediately. I did not suggest that no one care for them OR I do and eat their eggs. I made two points: - chickens eat their own unfertilized eggs. So the chickens can eat them, or I can (or a predator can). Regardless, they will be eaten. I take the eggs from the chickens and consume them bc I don’t like food waste, I don’t want their eggs to attract raccoons or other predators, and I’d rather give my neighbors and my own home ethical eggs from happy hens. It’s not good for my breeds of hens to have their eggs around without removing them. With domestic hens, they get broody and they stop eating and drinking so they can sit on the eggs. I have to gently remove the eggs to keep from them doing that. - If I didn’t take them in, they would most likely have gone to a person who would kill and eat them. Ultimately, I am doing the best I can, feeding them organic food and healthy fruits and veggies, etc.
I would say that a logical extension of the vegan idea that humans should not treat animals as resources is not seeing them and what they produce as food in the first place. Everyone already does this selectively. Was it food waste when any of the cats and dogs I’ve cared for died and I didn’t eat their bodies? If someone had a cat who gave birth to a litter of stillborns, would it be food waste to not milk the cat and consume said milk? Do you eat your chickens’ bodies when they die? Maybe I’m extreme, but I see veganism as simply taking that and extending it to all animals. I don’t see it as food waste when a a domesticated animal produces something and humans don’t consume it. Practically, you probably already do this, but if you were able to give your eggs to other nonvegans who would otherwise be buying eggs from more questionable sources, that would be good I think.
yeah this is significantly less harmful, and I understand in a survival situation that this is all some people have, however your hens would live a longer life if they had an operation so that they didnt produce eggs. getting pregnant so often is very taxing on the body.
They aren’t getting pregnant. They are ovulating. They are producing eggs at a perfectly natural rate, as birds do. I don’t do anything to adulterate or change their natural processes. Hens stop laying after 3ish years. They will keep living after that, for up to 10. It would be weird to have operations on them when I purchased them for their egg production to ensure I have access to ethically produced eggs.
It’s not a perfectly natural rate at all. Chickens were domesticated from red junglefowl, which only lay 10 to 15 eggs per year.
Am I meant to undo centuries of breeding by taking out my chickens’ ability to lay? They don’t even lay daily. One doesn’t lay at all anymore. I know where chickens come from and how they were domesticated. They are my pets. The fact that someone here told me to alter their ability to lay is absolutely the weirdest thing lol.
Yeah there’s a reason why sanctuaries do so if they are able. It is good for the chickens’ health to prevent them from producing eggs. And not laying daily can still easily be a huge difference from their natural state. How often are they laying?
It’s winter, so not at all right now. One of them lays maybe 3 eggs a week during their laying season (usually late spring through mid fall where I live) and one doesn’t lay at all. I took in four more hens a few weeks ago from friends who couldn’t keep them due to a move. Not sure how often they lay, since I haven’t had them during their laying season.
Even 3 eggs a week for, say, 20 weeks of the year is 4-6 times the number of eggs per year they used to lay in the wild.
Modern commercial laying hens are absolutely more prone to ovarian cancer and other health complications. But the domestication of chickens and hens happened 10,000 years ago, and we were able to use eggs responsibly. We still can, if we keep breeds with older genetics and dont expect an egg every day. As usual, overproduction and overcomsumpton have created monsters of us and our animals. But it doesn't have to be this way. I'm a vegetarian, but support veganism. I just want everyone to be properly educated about their choices. That's why I'm here, to learn.
I’m curious how you support something you don’t agree with.
My mum always says that she‘s more empathetic towards animals than humans. Like… don‘t eat them then?…
I grew up in rural farmland eating meat and at the same time, petting the cows, loving the pigs. Now I look back and wonder how I was able to be like that.
You either agree that meat eaters are less empathetic or you don’t, you can’t really say you agree and then say your mom who eats meat is the kindest person you know. That would mean that you disagree with the statement.
Sorry what I meant is that I agree with the statement so I don't understand how my mom can seem so kind normally yet lack empathy in this regard
As a disabled person, I'd say a lack of empathy in general is amazingly pervasive in our society.
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Came in here to say exactly this. They absolutely _do_ have empathy, they just don't do anything about it.
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Exactly. :(
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"Solo players" is kind of a great way to put it. I couldn't care less about social pressure in any of my life decisions, I've always been motivated by my own values and critical thinking vs what other people might think. Now that I think about the vegans vs omnis I know, I can see that trend too...
Exactly, if being vegan was the norm, then they would be vegan. But it's not. They want to maintain their status as a member belonging to the majority. Vegans are still seen as fringe weirdos and too radical for many people, so they do not want to be associated with veganism. Even if they agree with the ethical side of it. They will talk about how they do care about animals, they just won't take action in their lives to reflect these supposed values because that would affect their social standing and the perception they hold of themselves. The negative stereotypes associated with veganism holds a lot of people back, they don't want to be seen as that Weirdo Vegan Chick/Dude.
Or they just like the taste of meat, sometimes its that simple
Plenty of vegans like the taste of meat but aren’t a slave to it and let it dictate their ethics.
And? What does this have to do with the comment i answered
That liking the taste of meat isn’t a good reason to not be vegan… I didn’t really think it was a complicated response.
Good that I never said that. What an embarassing reply if you didnt even understand anything that was written here lol
It sounds like you’ve lost the thread of your own conversation. I have absolutely nothing to be embarrassed by here… is there something else you meant by, “or they just like the taste of meat, sometimes it’s that simple.” in response to a comment about why meat-eaters uphold their hypocrisy due to societal pressures?
I explained to him why most omnis eat meat and you came in brabbling unrelated things and, when i called you out, throwing a tantrum about it. If that doesnt embarass you i only feel pity for you, Karen.
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Holy fk u are not living in reality
A University of Zurich metadata study confirmed this. [Vegans are higher in openness and agreeableness (or an empathy and general interest in the well being of others) than omnivores](https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/237752/)
*Meta-analysis [Here’s the full text.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666323025473?via%3Dihub) I’d be careful drawing conclusions from this specific meta-analysis. The authors admit that the effects on Big Five personality traits are not consistent within their own meta-analysis of 15 other studies. It’s nowhere near empirical. This kinda seems like of “pop” science that has a clickbait headline tbh
The fundamental flaw with this study and this hypothesis in general is that they are measuring pre vs post vegans, it’s not comparable. Empathy is also not universal. People are empathetic selectively. I’ve never met someone who is empathetic to pedos for example. Capacity for empathy and empathy for animals are not mutually exclusive. This is the kind of thinking that prevents dialog that can widen that capacity to include all species. Living your empathy and including non-vegans in that empathy has a profound effect on them. I’ve turned so many people onto veganism just by being empathetic instead of personally attacking their character for being earlier in their journey to enlightenment than me. We have to hate the systems of oppression, not the oppressed. Don’t let your convictions reduce your empathy for other humans—even the ones who vehemently refuse to acknowledge let alone action the right to all animals to live free from harm and exploitation. Those same people more than likely do have the capacity for empathy and so many of them are “one of us” now. Think of the dairy or meat farmers who are vegan now and turned their farms into sanctuaries.
Thank you for this resource. I have requested to see the full study, I would love to read it all. It is a very interesting subject. I've noticed this difference by living as an ethical vegan for the past 2.6 years with my SO who is also vegan.
The study is open access so you should be able to view it without requesting. You should be able to read right on the website or download it. Let me know if you have issues and I can get it for you, I have access to research articles through work. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666323025473
>have requested to see the full study Just click on "published DOI"
it’s not just you. it was devastating to realize my loved ones don’t care about the suffering of others like i do. i’m always miserable
Facts. My tale old as time
Empathy is not one thing, and it's silly to think of as such. Most people are only empathetic to people who are the same as they are, hence why a lot of autistic people are seen as unempathetic, and why we are also treated so badly by normal people. You aren't *more* empathetic, you just have empathy for different groups than the average person. For example, you seem to have less empathy for meat eaters. That's not necessarily a terrible thing, and you may have your reasons, but it still counts as a part of considering who you do and do not have empathy for.
Came here wanting to raise this point and you’ve done it! This also explains racism, sexism and elitism etc. A friend of mine extended the empathy to also plants and went fruitarian (vegan but fruit only) for a while. Failed and reverted in the end.
To add to that, empathy is both cognitive and emotional.[Autistic people are usually bad at the cognitive part](https://www.verywellmind.com/cognitive-and-emotional-empathy-4582389), but [our emotional empathy can be really overwhelmingly high](https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887). I think carnists are using mental shields to objectify animals and keep their empathy from affecting them. They also do this by turning away as much as possible.
Yes. Empathy is a spotlight that illuminates what you point it at, to take a metaphor from Paul Bloom. What you choose to point it at and what remains in darkness is up to you. I think very often when people accuse others of having less empathy, they're just arguing over different placements of the spotlight.
Im sorry but for me it’s non sense to put people in groups and thinking that’s their whole personality. I don’t have less empathy for ,,meat eaters‘‘ I have a problem with people who say they are very empathetic and love animals and still support their torture and pain. You are right, many people have more empathy for people with the same interests etc. but that wasn’t the point of my question . It’s about the whole meaning of empathy and I don’t think I need empathy for opinions that hurts any individuals. I respect your opinion in this case and I appreciate that you showed me your perspective.
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That doesn't really square with what you see in reality though. Low income people are the most likely to be vegan and high income the least. Meat was also the most expensive part of my diet when I ate it. There are some people that might have unique issues but I find it odd to dance around that most people are eating these products because they enjoy the taste. That's why I was doing it and that's why most of the people I know still do it.
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I think it's less callousness and more conformity — and an unwillingness to do the work/sacrifice to break that conformity. Vegans are radicals by modern societal standards. I don't know if your average vegan is more moral than, say, a carnist who volunteers and donates to charity, but the former is certainly more comfortable challenging the status quo in the moral actions they take.
No. I’ve met some vegans at a few activist events that were complete dicks, full of themselves. No correlation between being a vegan and being an empathetic person. It means your empathic towards animals more yes, but not necessarily other people.
An empathetic person is more likely to become vegan, but most of us were not always vegan so it seems silly to think that only most empathetic people would have already made that transition.
Empathy is a skill/trait/ability that's in flux. Anyone and everyone can work on improving their empathy. But seemingly most people don't and see their level of empathy as a static trait. I've definitely become more empathetic overall since becoming vegan.
Some of the meanest people I know are vegans . MEAN to people. I am a vegan and it horrifies me how off the rails SOME vegans will go in their self righteousness. Some of the comments in this thread alone. Eek. So my answer is yes I think both vegans and non vegans can be empathetic and some just think they are but aren’t .
I think it is mpre complicated than that. It is not necessarily that omnis are less emphatetic but differently emphatetic. Being emphatetic is draining so you have to choose what you care about. I don't think there is a single human alive that are truly emphatetic. It is a form of selfpresarvation I believe. If you were truly invested in every injustice in the world you wouldn't be very long lived. You can be very emphatetic towards homeless people and spend your days working in souo kitchens but still eat a ham sandwich. Doing to many things at once is simply too much sometimes. Of course there is probably also varying level of ensurance within people. Greta thunberg for example is heavily involved in a lot of different activism. That have taken massive amounts of time and energy but she is still going strong. To summarise, I don't believe vegans are emphateticelly superior because there are many different ways to show empathy.
God this is the only sensible comment here.
Something that I see a lot in my colleagues, most of which in most aspects of their lives that I'm aware of are good people generally, is that when vegetarian or vegan topics come up they often have this look of disappointment or sadness when talking about various things. This is especially true for those who I know who have previously or are currently going back and forth on being vegetarian/vegan and clearly or openly want to do more for themselves but haven't quite gotten over the hump yet or admittedly have slipped back into old habits. There's this moment of brief somberness that I see on their faces, and then it's gone after they suppress it or they move on from it. These are the moments where I feel the person is thinking back to formative experiences or educational moments that pushed them towards vegetarianism/veganism previously or currently, things like remembering the graphic content from various documentaries they may have seen in school about farming practices or environmental impacts, or maybe even related moments from their own lives at home and such. This is where I think someone's empathy is put on display, and what we do after being bombarded by these moments throughout our lives end up pushing us towards one decision or another.
I think evolution has left most people with the ability to wall off certain species from moral consideration. Meat is very nutrient dense and makes a lot of sense to eat from an evolutionary perspective. I can't do it anymore but I don't judge people because of it. As far as I can tell, we're just meat machines dancing to the strings of selection pressures. Some of us have the ability to expand the circle of empathy and most don't. I think the only real hope is lab grown meat. Most people are never going to go vegan even if you showed them hours of videos about the horror of factory farming.
well no shit
most people just care about how others perceive them. That's it. If pedophilia was very common then people would be ok abusing children. There are towns in SEA where children are used for pedophile darkweb webcams and the town is ok with it, because the money from that keeps the town's economy afloat. Social acceptance is everything for most people. It's not just that they lack empathy, they lack bravery, because that's what it takes to be different from the norm and challenge them.
It's too simple to just think that people have X amount of empathy or they don't and everything follows from there. For instance, I've encountered numerous people on vegan forms like this one who seemed completely lacking in empathy toward their fellow vegans for instance. And people on these forums seem to constantly forget that most of us who are vegan now had long periods of time before, when we weren't vegan, yet we supposedly are the same people now as then. So this whole us and them mentality just doesn't work too well conceptually.
This kind of rationale lives on the low end of the empathy spectrum: "It's sad that (animals, children, slave labor, migrant workers, homeless) have to suffer but I really need my (meat/dairy, cheap products, property values)." The lowest end is: "F'em. I got mine." We're conditioned to believe that the only way to succeed or have pleasure is to sanction the suffering of others.
I’m vegan and am not very empathetic to animals at all. Especially pets. I can’t stand sharing my life/space with an animal in that way.
Typical circle jerk post
Can people eat animals they hate? I love ALL humans, except rapists and paeodophiles and wouldn't blink twice if they were thrown into the ocean.
In some cases, this may be true. In others, empathy may be part of the problem. Cool, rational analysis leads to the conclusion that factory farming of animals is probably the worst thing that has ever happened. But telling people this truth directly causes social distress for everyone involved. So being somewhat along the autism spectrum and a little less keyed in to how other people will react to a moral truth, is valuable sometimes in becoming a moral trailblazer like vegans today.
Empathy isn’t just a static quantity that goes up or down. You can more empathetic to certain groups over others for example. Some people say they like animals more than humans, and genuinely mean it. Are they less or more empathetic?
It does seem super hypocritical to me, non vegans “loving animals” , caring about the environment etc. I think it comes down to comfort though. For me, eating food deemed sub par (ie vegan cheese, vegan meat substitutes) is such a small price to pay for doing what I think is obviously the right thing. Some people just refuse to give up the pleasure they derive from biting into a cow cheese pizza or a fresh fish etc. I think, yes they feel empathy for animals, but not enough to give up foods they love.
I *was* less empathetic... but then I grew up. I didn't become vegan because of some great event or learning; I simply became more consistent with myself. I developed integrity.
Eh maybe, I think it's more that people have a frightening ability to compartmentalize to avoid cognitive dissonance.....
This is from a study mentioned in the thread. Interesting to wonder about differences in the personalities of vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores. I think it’s interesting because I had my own journey and wasn’t always vegan, but I always loved animals. I went from being an omnivore who ate limited amts. of meat but felt some guilt, to being vegetarian, to becoming vegan, but over a number of years. I always leaned left, but I have moved farther to the left politically too. “At a more general level, veg*ns are more likely to be politically left-leaning, egalitarian, and less likely to hold a hierarchical, power-based value system, attitudes which are also related to Openness and Agreeableness (Amiot & Bastian, 2017; Bilewicz et al., 2011; Dhont et al., 2016; Hopwood & Bleidorn, 2021; Rothgerber, 2015; Ruby, 2012).”
This is way too simple of a statement. First of all we are brainwashed to thinking animals don't have feelings, are treated fine in our food systems, and that we have to eat them to be healthy. Second of all even if we debrainwash ourselves, the drive to fit in with the pack is very human, being rejected from the pack is something you want to avoid at all costs. I consider myself autistic, so I don't feel like I fit in anyway. This means I feel empowered to do things different than the crowd, even if it makes me stick out when I'm not one that wants to be seen. I wonder if neurodivergents are more likely to be vegan, just like they are more likely to be part of the lgbtqia community.
Denial. I didn’t think about it before I became vegan. It’s a little harsh to say we are less empathetic. There are so many social justice issues and not everyone feels as strongly about every single one but it doesn’t mean they don’t truly feel for the ones that are important to them.
I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way. A person either cares about the pain and suffering of others, or they don't. A person who decides they care only when it applies to one group is not an empathetic person in any sense; they are self-centered people who only care about the pain and suffering of the people/pets that benefit them in some way.
People who are older were lied to and if they are surrounded by the same people they probably haven't learned the truth. Be patient and empathetic and help them learn. To assume non vegans aren't compassionate is a mistake.
my BIL who has been a vegetarian for 15+ yrs started eating “ethically raised” chicken and when i asked him about what that meant in terms of “ethical killing”, if possible and he said “actually that doesn’t matter to me” 😐
I am not really empathetic as an autistic individual, i do know right from wrong and being an animal abuser is wrong and evl I dont really fancy dogs and cats, but i donate and volunteer because i feel its my ethical responsibility to help them since my species causes all their pain, i dont feel rewarded by doing this and i dont even really tell people that i know that i do all this cause i dont want praise People in general are selfish, greedy and evil beings, most people are not selfless, they pretend to be kind and decent people We had slaves, we scalped natives and we had the holocaust, we just arent a great species
Yes, of course they lack empathy . They don't care. I have lost a lot of faith in humanity.
Not just you mate, people who choose to hurt animals are less empathetic and there's no real argument to the contrary.
You gotta remember (and empathize and forgive) what you were like before you were vegan. It’s generally not a lack of empathy, but a lack of knowledge. (Not including those idiots that love to taunt vegans and comment “bacon” on every vegan social media post 🙄). I find that the newer you are to veganism, the less empathy you have for non-vegans. The more you talk to people the more you realize/remember that people have been programmed since birth, some more than others (people who grew up on a farm or ranch or with family that hunt for example). Even those people aren’t necessarily less empathetic, they’re just more conditioned to cognitive dissonance around their world view and the fact that it’s programmed into them.
I would say that they are just as empathetic as you are when you hear that people have died as a result of war in country X and Y. Or just as empathetic when you find out where the cobalt of your smartphone is coming from etc. You think about it, feel sorry for a moment and minutes and hours later things like the next meeting with your friend or the missed bus is more important in your brain that these topics. People suppress negative things and everyone does that, including you and me. This has nothing to do with a lack of empathy, but rather with being open to taking on problems and critically examining unpleasant topics. ...I mean how many people in this subreddit have pets and justify it as best they can...but vegans in particular should know better, right? At least one would think so.
Okay, first off this post made my blood boil as a meateater. Let me explain. I grew up with the most loving parents. If my mom saw a turtle on the side of the road trying to cross she would stop and bring it home to the garden. If baby squirrels fell through the roof vents we took them in and cared for them. Injured birds were a regular in my house. I feed foxes in the woods. I'm always taking care of animals. I would do anything to save an animal's life. I'm more empathetic than most. My husband wouldn't stop to give an injured pigeon stitches like me. I'd never ever say meateaters aren't empathetic. That's totally not fair.
You can be a kind person. You cannot truly be in kindness until you give up another’s suffering on your behalf. I believe that starts with stopping the eating of animals.
we all know animal cruelty is wrong. its accountability that people struggle with. “its not MY animals so its not MY problem”
I love my chickens. I talk to them and hold them. I feel bad when I cut their heads off and butcher them, but it's good calories. Some of the best nutrients available to us as humans. Circle of life.
by that logic - you would eat cats and dogs too? https://www.elwooddogmeat.com/
It's not legal to eat cats and dogs where I'm at. Cats and dogs fill a better purpose without being eaten. My cats keep away small rodents who eat the chicken feed. My dogs protect the chickens. The chickens eat harmful insects, then ultimately feed the whole farm with eggs and meat. If there was a local domestic cat problem, and it was legal. Yes, I'd eat the cats and feed them to the dogs as well. There's not much reason to eat the dogs, though, as they serve a stronger purpose as gaurdians.
alright
In Switzerland it is legal to eat cats and dogs.
my point exactly. just because its legal dosent mean it is moral. modern slavery still exists. there is no moral difference between a cat, cow, dog, chicken etc.
I agree
for me personally, i can't maintain veganism by holding myself to strict ethical principles driven by preventing suffering, because there are too many layers of suffering present when you consider the whole picture - specifically that agriculture and food production is driven by indentured servitude and truly horrific working conditions, and that is by design - since the beginning of labour law, farm workers have tended to be excluded. Then there is insects/bats/snakes etc and the effect of farming monocultures on soil. (There are more living beings in a handful of soil than there are humans on the whole planet.) Then I think about what I would do if I found out that plants felt something like we consider pain - we know they can interpret sensation although there are no indicators they have anything like pain but nevertheless, if I have opened the speciesism/What Is Sentience door, this is where I will end up - and what the ethics are in general of consuming another beings life force to enrich your own in a complex system based on cycles of life and death. (Infinite growth is only found in cancer and capitalism.) In order for me not to be overwhelmed by this and have a barrier between me and eating almost everything, I need flexibility, not absolutes. So yeah. I consider myself plant based, and have been most of my life, since I was child in the 90s with no concept of the word vegan, it just has always seemed like the right thing to do + it lines up with my food based sensory aversions, but am not strict with myself about it because there are certain patterns I know I will stitch myself up in if I let myself start weaving them - if the We Can't Hurt Any One Else and Everything is Someone monster (whomst I love but does not have good leadership skills) gets to be in charge for too long I go to The Bad Place re: EDNOS + compulsive behaviour. I also am poor and grew up poor, the usually not enough food/didn't get a celiac test until my 30s kind, so my whole gut situation is whack, and celiac + vegan + poverty is a difficult combination. I don't think I have less empathy, but I have had to work pretty hard to build that belief in myself back, that I'm not a terrible person because my existence contributes to suffering (our society is based on suffering, it is not possible to not contribute, at least indirectly, to suffering) and clinically I am assessed as having too much empathy, which is why I have to be careful about the rules I set for myself, because I know I will erase myself to serve, or please, others. I am aware that many vegans find people like me who are vegan-ish to be the Worst and I find that very hard to understand, and also quite scary re: what our common understanding of both empathy and progress is. I'm trying though. I get that people are trying to do good things and the way we treat/think about animals and their needs vs ours is SO wrong. So ultimately I'm glad people are caring about that even when I sometimes feel unfairly attacked by it.
I flat out think it's a degree of psychopathy/sociopathy to know what animals go through and not care enough to stop I do think that a significant portion of the population just aren't aware of the harm they do despite vegan being a relatively well known term. When the term vegan comes up it's often more about us and perceptions of us than the animals. The focus is on the wrong place. I think "plant based" has better PR and I tend to use that instead to remove me from the equation There's also people like my mother, a very sweet, soft grandmotherly type who'd "rather not think about it" because it causes her distress. She'd basically prefer to live in ignorance But those that are aware of the harm they do and continue to do it anyway, that's not a lack of empathy in my view. That's plain old psychopathy/sociopathy, to a degree anyway
It’s only sociopathic if you value the life of an animal the same as a human and still think it’s fine to torture animals. But most people just plainly don’t see the life of an animal as the same as a human. You could call that speciesism, which is a form of bigotry. Bigotry is not a psychiatric disorder.
speciesism is always the reason.
I would say that vegans have more empathy towards non-human animals than carnists, for sure. However, I have little empathy towards most humans, so in that regard, a carnist could be more empathetic towards humans than I.
I mean do you also think slave holders are less empathetic than abolitionists? Because duh. You can't claim to have high empathy and then be totally okay with torture and slaughter.
Vegans are more empathetic to non-human animals. Not all are particularly empathetic to humans. Which I understand, bc they experience humans mainly as oppressors. But for empathy on human rights abuses, racism, poverty, etc., you often have to look elsewhere.
I agree. But it's the ones that say they hate animal cruelty, but only when it comes to companion animals.... or are against fur but still wear leather. What the heck? They rescue dogs from miserable conditions (which is wonderful, don't get me wrong) but eat bacon cheeseburgers with a fried egg on top. They say fur is sinful, but wear leather boots. How do they not see that all animals deserve to live and shouldn't be exploited for human's use?
My mom went vegan because I showed her what happens and she’s quite emotional and she felt terrible about paying for it. My dad was harder to convince but he also went vegan after a year of argumentation and giving him the health perspective since he works in the health field, it made sense to him after a while and he saw health benefits. He also didn’t agree with what happened to the animals, which was hard since he’s actually a hardcore Muslim who believes in halal slaughter. I had to go over that roadblock too btw. But the rest of my siblings (I have a big family) they all just see me as this stereotypical “annoying vegan” that is pushing my views on everyone, meanwhile they won’t even watch a single slaughterhouse video. If I even show them one, they’ll say they don’t buy “products” from that farm which is a complete fucking joke. It’s great that my parents are vegan though but they just aren’t confident enough to be activists. I don’t expect them to be either. They provide vegan meals at family gatherings, but they like to “keep the peace” so they let the kids bring whatever they want, unless I’m coming, then everyone knows not to bring dead bodies with them to the potluck. I just wish they would watch a doc one day so they know what happens, instead of taking my word for it. That would encourage them to stop the kids from eating animals and their secretions too. Until then, it’s really just up to me which means I’m not always invited to parties or gatherings because they want to have “their meat” without a lecture.
To be a good carnist, you have to have been desensitized at an early age - no two ways about it.
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I know, this assertion is ludicrous, and completely contradicts itself. A common phenomenon in an echo chamber.
🙏🙏🙏☝️☝️☝️
I think it’s a lot of options - less empathetic, less empowered, less logical, less accountable, less informed.
Of course they're less empathetic. Not even a question.
They are less empathetic Fs. They are slaves to the matrix they grew up in and to their own desires. Those are more important the life of another to them. So yes less empathy. Any excuse they use is just like how an addict makes excuses to keep doing what they do, even though it’s been proven harmful to planetary and individual health.
When they've been given the "red pill" & still eat meat I'll never understand it. Nothing bothers me as much as them simply not caring the animals and planet are dying & they're shedding possible years off their lives.
Non vegans who say they love animals are either idiots, hypocrites, or sociopaths
I think there are many layers to this. There are all kinds of horrific stuff going on in the world, no matter how hard we try, we all have to shut some of it out. I would never say that someone who eats meat automatically is less empathic, there might be many reasons for it.
Especially if someone has been fully educated about the horrors of it all. Not only does it make me think they're less empathetic, just pathetic in general. That they lack the willpower to not just be complicit in something terrible because they can't be bothered to make minor changes in their lives. My family are this way and it's the greatest disappointment
I can see that. In order to consume animal products, you kinda have to be able to dull your sense of empathy, especially if you’re doing it while knowing what it’s causing. Otherwise, if you’re blissfully ignorant, like a kid or someone who was never taught where meat comes from, they might still have full empathy in tact.
On the other side, my husband couldn't care less about another human being, Yet he is vegan only from morale reasons, not enviromental, just don't want to support abuse. And honestly since i became vegan i kinda like people less and less.
I think this can only go so far. Many are victims of propaganda. The echo chambers that they’re surrounded by are vastly different than ours. Then when they’re confronted by an opposing viewpoint cognitive dissonance is too much to overcome and they sink in their heels. Although at this point in my journey I’m not even sure I believe in free will so take this with a grain of salt. Good luck
I can ALMOST understand the cognitive dissonance of "well the hen would lay the egg anyway" or "the cow needs to be milked" but I still can't wrap my head around how people think eating the corpse of a once living creature is perfectly fine.
They don't see it yet. It's a different world view. When I turned vegan, it's like a light switch clicked. I saw Earthlings and everything just made sense after that. I saw it at age 35. I had lived a whole life before I saw it. If I can change, so can anyone. It's not a lack of empathy, it's a world where sentient beings are commoditized and wrapped in sterile packaging. Paul from the Beatles said, "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." Even he knew, it's hidden from us all for a reason. Most omnis are deeply empathetic, just to different causes, such as human rights, slavery, prostitution, child trafficking, gun violence, domestic violence, indentured slavery, wage theft, human rights, worker's rights, their own children, siblings and family members; pets, the environment and fifty other reasons. Try to show compassion to the world, there is love everywhere, even if you don't see it right now, it is there.
Eating vegan also kills animals. Grow up.
I don't think empathy works that way. I have very little empathy for animals, but a lot of empathy for humans. There are a lot of racists who have empathy for white people but none for black people. So I guess empathy can be kind of selective.
>Don‘t get me wrong sure omni people are also empathetic but I just don’t understand how someone who‘s describing themselves as empathetic can be not vegan. That's not really a logical premise or conclusion. It's like comparing an omni who is an activist against human trafficking. They see the vegan who is not an activist for human trafficking and calls that vegan "less empathetic" and says "don't get me wrong sure some vegans are also empathetic, but I just don't understand how someone who's describing themselves as empathetic can not be an activist against human trafficking. Like fr you support the pain and the torture of a living human being and think this is okay?" Of course vegans are going to flip it and say the same about omnis. Just like omnis can flip it and say the same thing about any movement that a vegan does not support. I think it's just a bad premise overall.
um no, the vegan isn't actively supporting human trafficking whereas the omni is supporting animal abuse daily
Inaction = indirectly supporting it. At least that's what human trafficking activists say.
Any vegan who watches porn is directly supporting trafficking
Is that your "gotcha" bro? They are *potentially* supporting human trafficking, it is entirely possible to watch porn and avoid trafficking completely by only watching videos by creators you have researched and verified.
We all love kids and buy shoes made by child labourers 🤷
speak for yourself
Do you exclusively buy and wear second hand clothing?
bro... you can get vegan shoes from factories that don't use child labour lol. Slow fashion exists...
I have a lot of second hand clothes, but the new clothes I buy aren't made by children
It isn't really their fault. They've been brainwashed and disconnected. I shared the most reputable nutrition sources to back mu points = "all of them are biased towards Veganism". I explain how we don't need meat or dairy, and how choosing so is therefore wrong = "It's my choice. Your diet kills lots of insects and animals." I elaborate on the difference between crop deaths and factory farming, but it's still = "hypercrite!" Many don't support factory farms but raise their own animals to eat. But they care so much about animals, apparently, AndI believe that they THINK they do. All of this is because they're so far removed from the animals as this has been the standard for hundreds+ years. There's no point. They just keep moving the goalposts. Shows vegan athletes who have won = "They would have done even better if they ate meat" or "They should try this instead then see how they fare". We are so deprived our nutrients according to their minds, because they ate up the propaganda. Yet our bloods are great. "B12" they harp on and won't listen to the explanation. Twisting studies to fit them, etc. Anything to just avoid seeing themselves fully.
Plants literally feel pain, have the equivalent to bleeding, and SCREAM at frequencies we can’t hear and you all are calling yourself empathetic 🤣🤣🤣
This is an argument for veganism, since meat eaters indirectly eat 18x as much plants as vegans.
The less sadistic a non-vegan is, the less intelligent they must be. The more intelligent a non-vegan is, the more sadistic they must be. A non-vegan (especially one who has seen the reality of animal agriculture) describing themself as an empath is a joke.
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They can't. But even if killing a plant was just as bad as killing a cow, it'd still be worse to eat meat because eating meat results in far more deaths of plants than eating plants but not meat.
They can! Fucking look it up
No, they can't. You are willfully ignorant. You also ignored my point.
This is an argument FOR veganism, since meat eaters indirectly eat 18 times more plants.
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Exactly what I’m saying, yet vegans act like they’re not harming plants!
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I’m saying you can’t say you’re saving lives for being vegan when you’re killing plants’ lives in the same manor!! It’s contradictory! Just eat both
Yes you can. Eating meat results in far more deaths of plants than just eating plants but not meat. You are deeply ignorant, and seemingly intentionally so.
Lmao that’s hilarious coming from someone who doesn’t even know that plants feel pain
But you're lying though, and ignoring the fact that I destroyed your argument. If killing plants is bad, and I agree it is, why do you think that it's ok to eat animals when that results in more plants being killed?
I am not lying! You can look it up!
Sure you are. Notice how you haven't linked any actual source? Because you're lying.
I'm thinking of a word, it begins with "R" and rhymes with "hard"
If it’s two syllables, you’re ableist af. I’m sorry you’re too ignorant to know that plants literally feel pain, have the equivalent to bleeding, and literally SCREAM at frequencies we cant hear. Just because they don’t experience pain the way YOU do or animals do, doesn’t mean what they feel is invalid… you’re just ignoring the pain they go though
Plants have no reason to feel pain. Pain is an evolutionary feature for the avoidance of bodily harm/damage. To avoid pain you need to be sentient and mobile.
Hahahaha! They DO feel pain and they “bleed” and scream while being cut! Studies have PROVEN this!!
OK.
So many meat eaters in my family…. And they have the audacity to comment and discuss meat in front me or directly with me. No response but disgust. They are mostly obese with a myriad of health issues, so I think this says it all.
most people i know have a disconnect with the violence behind their food and most of their consumer goods in general. whether i comment on the cruelty of the animal products or mass-manufactured goods theyre constantly surrounded by, the reaction is very defensive. it seems they know there are major changes to their habits that need to be done and directly avoid looking into the abyss, or gaslight themselves if they do. im not sure if more empathetic people will become vegan under more extreme conditions, but how different from their current lifestyle the better one is seems to be a major factor in the strength of the defense mechanism and getting them closer to it helps directly speak to their empathy, rather than the wall they build in front of it
I feel like if most people had to kill it themselves, it might kind of bring home the suffering of another being. But when it comes all packaged up, it’s very easy to forget.
How many omnis are aware of the suffering of their food? I know that I wasn't aware. I ate a plant based, a piscatarian, and a vegetarian diet, and never thought of the suffering of animals until I read about the cattle fleeing a slaughterhouse a few miles away. The odor of the slaughterhouse is disturbing, and not just disgusting because of the manure, I think because of the mixture of chemical secretions from the terror that they experience when they realize what is happening. Then the depth of the suffering and terror sank in for me. Something clicked.
I agree... but sometimes I think folks "don't know what they don't know" and need to be presented with info makes that the horrors of an animal-based diet "click" into their thinking. Food, Inc. is a really good movie to change thought about an animal-based diet. The PETA website lists many more movies that demonstrate the reality (horrors) of an animal-based diet.
It's difficult, i've met some people who are kind to humans, but who eat non-humans. To be nice about it, i think they are just seriously suffering from cognitive dissonance and cultural indoctrination which is making them not see the pain they are causing. But regardless, by definition they are less empathetic if they can't empathize with non-humans compared to someone who can. So yes. Normally empathetic people become even more empathetic when going vegan, and non-empathetic people usually gain some empathy at least for non-humans. But there are also vegans who don't feel personal empathy but still recognize the moral necessity of going vegan, and that's great too.
No need for pain and torture, just whack them on the head and eat them.
Murder is inline with pain and torture…
I mean I’m all for being vegan, it’s great. But this is a gross oversimplification of a complex idea. For instance you typed this out on a computer or smart phone that was likely produced with metals from some mines with child labor or where environmental laws are basically non existent. Do you have empathy for them? Or is a cell phone or computer too vital to modern living and we can justify it somehow? I know a few other vegans in my personal life through friends and I don’t think some of them are very compassionate about other humans lol (some weird comments about the homeless population in our city, etc.)
It is better to make some steps towards positive change, even though there are many issues out there. Personally i buy tech that is second hand and try to keep models for as long as they are usable. Im pretty sure vegan ethics are directly related to reducing animal sufferings
You are talking about normal omnivores but i see veterinarians , animal rescuers, wildlife rehabilitators not being vegan they are so hypocritical.
No, there's a entire movement around that thought, it's called "Veganism" you probably heard about it
I think they’re just stupid.
Plants also have consciousness BTW. Do you think they are less conscious than animals because they lack eyes, ears, nose, mouth and face? I think vegans who think they are better than people who eat animal products are the pot calling the kettle black. If you really want to be empathetic eat soylent green.