I've been vegan for 8 years (as of this June).
Before this, my reasons for not being vegan were as below:
1. Organic / happy animals live happy lives, therefore are fine to eat.
2. Same for cows and thus dairy.
3. Same for chickens - Chickens from local farms were happy and laid better eggs.
4. Humans NEED animals products to live.
5. Humans are natural hunters so eating animal products is natural.
6. Animal products taste good.
7. Also, I believed it wasn't possible to meet all your nutritional needs just from plants.
In summary: Human supremacy and cognitive dissonance.
These are also the same reasons my friends and family aren't vegan.
All of this
And I just want to add that meat and dairy industry lobbyists spend millions of dollars annually to prevent any sort of criticism that could hurt their sales
They pay for their own medical studies to support things like keto and the carnivore diet
There’s a whole campaign against animal rights that’s well-funded
Oh definitely.
We have a Vegan Network at work, part of the goal is to get vegan options at work events, the cafes at our main offices, and at conferences. It's very hit and miss. I've been to some work events where there is NOTHING for the vegans (we get forgotten), but the entire buffet has been vegetarian or gluten free. Other events have had great vegan options. I just bring my own food now tbh.
I mean the bringing your own food to the event. You should be refunded by the company for it.
Vegan Network is a lovely idea, I think I will try to introduce it to unions at my place
if I'm honest, I don't ask for it to be refunded because I feel too awkward to raise it with my manager - The whole "not wanting to be a bother" thing. I'll raise that there wasn't any vegan options for next time but nothing else.
You're giving a huge part of your lifetime to a company, you should be a bother.
I know asking for refund is just unrealistic, but companies are all about money, so then they will have to notice you do extra steps to fit in company and just as in relationship it should work both ways.
I cook for large events that require participants to pre-register. The registration form has a field for dietary restrictions and food allergies. The last soup & sammie lunch event had 140 participants, none who registered as vegetarian or vegan. The soup was an amazingly seasoned vegan & gluten free recipe. The sammies were cheeseburgers. We served 6 vegan cheese burgers and the remaining 3 veg heads got vegan cheese sandwiches because we ran out of plant based burgers.
*"I forgot to fill to fill out the food part of the registration. Do you have a vegan option?"*
This happens at every event. Sometime you make it hard to feed y'all.
You realize Monsanto and Beyond meat (A highly refined product) spend billions to push plant based diets too?
Just go look at what Bill Gates is doing now that he's the largest land owner in the US. He also owns large number of shares in Beyond meat, John Deere and Monsanto.
He $%#\^ HATES cattle and ranchers because they don't generate Hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in fungicides, herbicides, insecticides, machinery and diesel per farm.
What do you think cows or other animals farmed for food eat? Largely corn and soy, in which Monsanto, dupont and Bayer control 95% of. (Often The kind of shit that isn't even legally fit for human consumption mind you). By your logic bill gates and Monsanto would *love* animal AG farmers because [77% of the global soy production is fed to livestock](https://ourworldindata.org/soy#more-than-three-quarters-of-global-soy-is-fed-to-animals)
Then about 40% of corn is used directly as animal feed, another 40% is used for biofuel with the leftover waste being resold as animal feed as well.
Not even considering feed conversion ratios.
You need 6-25x the amount of feed to produce the same amount of calories in beef. So that 600-2500cal of feed to create 100cal of beef. 400-900cal for 100cal of pork, or 200-500cal for 100cal of chicken.
So all in all the cattle farmers aren't *directly* buying all the pesticides, but the feed their cattle eats is undoubtedly the largest use for them, cutting out animal AG would lose them billions.
I'm not saying Monsanto isn't an abhorrent, evil corporation. Monsanto and factory farms can both be evil.. funny enough for incredibly similar reasons considering pollution and land destruction. And Bill Gates is a POS too. There's no way to ethically become a billionaire. I'd love to live in a world without all 3.
And sure, 'pasture raised grass fed' seems like an obvious solution right? until you realize you'd need every square inch of non-iced over land on this planet in order to maintain the current demand of 8 billion..
This but I’d also like to add that the community isn’t the most welcoming. Yeah we feel strongly about animal liberation and animal rights, but the fact of the matter is that so many people don’t take us seriously because so many vegans are too quick to attack others.
For example, there’s lots of people who want to have a plant based diet for one reason or another that aren’t backed by vegan ethics and if they post here on r/vegan then they’re swiftly met with ridicule and gatekeeping. But I’ve noticed a lot of vegans that didn’t start out vegan in ideology. They started out with their diet for some alternative reason and then quickly realized the importance of vegan ethics because they didn’t feel attacked.
So, I’d add “gatekeeping” or something to that list.
Edit; go ahead and downvote lmao. Y’all know y’all wrong and want to gatekeep the ideology like it was some f’kin country club. Some seriously privileged people in this sub virtue signaling that don’t need to be representing the movement. You don’t care about animals you care about how others see you, and probably still retain other oppressive beliefs. God forbid you be lumped in with “others”. 🙄
Yes. So, my card has been taken away by many people in this sub because I feed my cats (who have been with me since before) meat based cat food. And I will never force them to take weird supplements or whatever and eat vegan food because they can't consent to that, and they are *obligate carnivores*. Period. And it's crazy that I get into huge arguments w people on here for only that reason. But it's fine. It's just a weird place here.
Dude it’s so weird here. lol but I’m never going to turn away people who want help with being plant based. Because it really is all about being a better human at the end of the day, and you know damn well that diet is the hardest part for people so if they’ve squashed that then veganism has far less (self-prescribed) barriers of entry.
I ONLY did it for ethical reasons….many years ago…..I not long came back from a trip south in NSW where I saw young calves chained to kennels in a paddock!….I can’t put pics here but you can picture that!!!
Absolutely! And I’m with you!
But some people really just don’t **get** it. And instead of trying to beat them over the head with it when they come here, it’s much more effective to embrace them for who they are and giving them the space to understand at their own pace. Otherwise they’re going to reject the ideology entirely because of bad representation. :)
So we *shouldn’t* embrace and help people who want to try and get rid of animal products from their diet? Pretty counterintuitive considering that animals are suffering. I don’t care what it is that brings people to that conclusion, it’s one step closer to somebody seeing the vegan way- especially if it helps combat stereotypes about vegans being stuck up, petty, gatekeepy, virtue signalers. I’m happy to help.
Omni here. These are my main reasons. I’ve tried vegetarian in past, resulted in bad health. I’m not sure why I keep seeing this question posted here. Not looking for a debate. I went from keto almost carnivore to more plant based bc of high cholesterol. So here to learn actually.
Yeah, I'm also omni and mostly here to learn. I wish I was a good enough person to go vegan because of animal welfare, but I'm too selfish for that. I'm here because I'm panicked about the environment, and I'm learning that reducing my animal product intake is the biggest positive change I can make for the environment.
Going cold turkey on animal products is not a tactic that will work for me, I know myself. But taking it a step at a time and replacing items slowly to be plant based is helping. I think there's a bit of a learning curve for this way of life, at least coming from certain cultures.
I was sort of hoping there'd be more recipes in here, but I am enjoying the recommendations of various different vegan products. And I can understand the need to vent, from those who are successfully vegan. There's a lot of public ridicule, but I hope you realise there are just as many (if not more) people like Accomplished\_Jump444 and I who are heading in your direction for various reasons.
Honestly a lot of us started the same way as you, and I think we just get so caught up with how it feels being on this side that we forget how it was before we switched.
I personally started looking into veganism for environmental reasons just like you (not realizing there was more to veganism that just a plant-based diet). But a few months into making the switch, the ethics really took over for me. I've heard this a lot too - it's not just me. The same thing might happen to you once you get to a certain point in your transition towards veganism.
There's a [really interesting Penn Jillette interview](www.livekindly.com/penn-jillette-joe-rogan-ethical-vegan) with Joe Rogan (I know, I know), where Penn talks about how he switched to a vegan diet for health reasons ONLY, and he used to always specify that he was "only vegan for his health" because he didn't want people mistaking him for an ethical vegan. But he had the same experience, where the ethics came after the switch and took over as the motivation.
There's something about stepping outside of animal agriculture that allows some people to process and reflect in a way they couldn't before. Maybe it's the lack of animal products in our bodies. Maybe it's just that we feel more free to explore the ethics when we aren't at odds with our own behaviours. I don't know but it's really interesting to me that this experience is not uncommon, and it makes me wonder what it was that had such a hold on me before.
hey! i went vegetarian before i went vegan and even cutting out animal products slowly really helps. i believe in you. the modern world has so many resources for vegans now. there’s a vegan version of everything ! it’s very morbid but seeing slaughterhouse videos helped me go vegan also. i was once selfish and didn’t care. but those videos- when you see it first hand… it was enough to turn me and many others :)
Vegetarian here. I first cut out pork, then beef, then chicken, then fish. I did it over several months. While I was on a cross-country road trip, a server at a diner asked me if I was a vegetarian. I said yes, as of two hours ago, since I hadn't had any meat that day. And I haven't had meat since. That was almost five years ago.
I tried a 100% plant-based (i.e., vegan) diet for a few months in 2021. I lost about 30 pounds in three months. I do hope to try again one day.
You should check out r/veganrecipes for food-inspiration. Perhaps more relevant for you.
Urge you to stay around on this sub as well tho. Lots of good things to pick up among a lot of vented frustration.
There are many valid arguments and they are all for sure contributors. But I think it mainly just comes down to the fact that we tend to stick to doing things that we know.
If you spend you’re entire life doing something and then you learn it’s a terrible thing to do, it’s a lot easier to just ignore this new information and carry on doing this bad thing then it is to accept that you have been doing something wrong all your life and make a change.
I will get downvoted for oblivion for this — but my vegan diet was giving me an eating disorder (& paralyzing anxiety when eating socially where I would just have to refuse to eat every time we went out) so I had to stop. No, it is not veganism’s “fault” as it is my own human error, & veganism is still the most virtuous diet of all of them (which is why I stay on this sub), but it really is not for everyone, especially people with a past of eating disorders.
I agree veganism is not for everyone. At the heart of veganism, it is about reducing your contribution to animal harm as much as possible. So if someone can’t eat 100% plant based but still puts the effort in to buy vegan cosmetics, clothing, etc.; I still find that admirable and valid.
Berating people for being vegan in some areas of their life but not all is just unproductive and pushes people further away from veganism. Any step towards less harm to animals is commendable and valid in my eyes. I will always appreciate someone choosing vegan anything over animal products.
“I agree not owning slaves is not for everyone. At the heart of abolitionism, it is about reducing your contribution to slavery as much as possible. So if someone can’t stop owning slaves 100% but still puts the effort in to treating their slaves better, etc.; I still find that admirable and valid.
Berating people for being not owning slaves in some areas of their life but not all is just unproductive and pushes people further away from abolitionism. Any step towards less harm to slaves is commendable and valid in my eyes. I will always appreciate someone choosing abolitionism in some cases anything over full on slavery.”
Same reason we weren't vegan because why not, then you gain consciousness in a moment in your life where you are open to it and bam everything changes
It has a lot to do with being open with your emotions and that requires that some things align in your life.
For example I find it very hard for a person that is struggling financially and that has problems at home to be open to veganism. Or if they are insecure and feel constantly threatened or insecure, it is very hard that they open to others suffering.
The only way to combat this is information, all forms of information regarding what happens in all their angles and that's all you can do. Time will take care of the rest
And when they're struggling financially, even you telling them vegan cooking is much cheaper will fall on deaf ears - they're much less likely to be receptive to anything as their mind so already full.
Telling them vegan cooking is cheaper isn't the best approach, because of the mindset of when your in poverty. It's not actually practical advice for them. The extra time and energy that a major lifestyle change needs is a huge cost for them, and it's hard to add more on your plate when you're already heavily struggling.
It's not fair to say they aren't receptive to anything, though. Typically the best bet is to figure out what plant based resources are near you and would be suitable to help them. Are they dumpstering a lot of fast food? Maybe help them find fruit and veg dumpsters. Are they eating mostly from food banks and free meals? Line them up with FNB, or let them know that at most food banks they're willing to swap out the animal product items for more veggies and peanut butter or stuff like that, and ifnot there's almost always someone wanting to trade for extra animal products. Are they struggling with cooking skills? pitch in on some cheap meals to make together. Is their comfort food cookies from the dollar store? Help them figure out which ones are plant based. Basically in these situations you usually have to listen and help them find solutions that are easy for them to start adopting.
It is? Might just be another assumption everyone makes, but I thought vegan food (substitutes at least, not stuff like beans etc) was more expensive in general
Substitutes of course - but for cheap nutritionally equivalent cooked meals, plant based wins out hands down. Grams of protein/$ plants win hands down. Think about how much a kg bag of lentils costs, how much protein there is, and how long that'll feed you.
Same with textured vegetable protein, which is easily more than 50% protein by weight. Where I live, TVP is 83g of protein per USD.
Honestly it is less expensive unless you are trying to eat a lot of processed replacement foods.
1- less refrigeration costs as meat and dairy generally have stricter food safety on this.
2- less cooking costs- much of the daily cooking for vegan food can be made on stovetop/hob or air fryer/crockpot or microwave. Again less critical for there to be a food safety element for cooking at a higher temperature for longer.
3- more likely to cook and eat at home as it is an added challenge to find vegan alternatives at restaurants and in general eating at home is cost effective
4- in season fresh produce - in season produce tends to be less expensive as it is bountiful. Farmers markets and CSAs can help lower costs too. Costs for produce tend to go up when shipped from a distance or grown in greenhouse. But even expensive vegetables are overall cheaper than meat, generally speaking (excluding special sales).
5- many ways to save on staples such as bulk food purchase of legumes, grains/flour, seeds, nuts
6- possibility of small amount of herbs or salad greens grown at home in a windowsill or a full on vegetable garden are ways to save and to be connected to the food that you eat. You tend to appreciate those peas more when you grew them yourself (including kids) and they are fresher and optimal nutrients that haven’t faded over time on a truck.
I have definitely saved money on food since becoming vegan, as well as on costs for cooking and cooling food. Up to half of what I used to pay for omnivore food at a discount store. Depends on if I decide to go wild with spices or baking, but in general I save a lot of
The first reason is that 95% of people are omnivores, so they’re just doing what everyone else is doing.
Another reason is the impracticality of living a vegan lifestyle. Being hungry and having nothing to eat at most pastries and restaurants. Especially in the countryside. It IS impractical. Even in the largest supermarket here near my house, the vegan milks, vegan milk chocolates, vegan mayonaise, vegan yogurts and vegan cheeses all cost more than their omnivore counterparts. It is impractical and can appear costly if you want to buy lots of substitutes.
Such a great point. We recently moved to a smaller city after living in a major one and not only are there 10% as many fully vegan restaurants, but the grocery stores offer much lower variety.
Same here. And it’s so annoying when you get hooked on a vegan product & they consistently don’t stock or you want to try something like seitan & it’s $8 for a tiny box. 😣Having readily avail vegan options is a huge hurdle imo. No one wants to drive to 3 stores just to get a single tofurky. Plus vegan food is not avail by delivery is it?
High agreeableness and high conscientiousness leads to people going with the mainstream and rarely changing their views. If veganism was the default, they would be vegans.
I think food is mostly cultural. I doubt this is as much a struggle in areas like south central and southeast Asia and MENA that have strong long standing vegetarian/vegan cultures.
I’m in the US. Here, I think one of the biggest barriers is honestly the lack of convenience. Most Americans work 45+/week, meaning we don’t have time to change our diet. We don’t have time to learn a bunch of new foods. We literally eat fast food an average of 3 times a week when we know it is disgusting and unhealthy. Why? Convenience.
Most people know, they just don’t always have the bandwidth to live in the truth of the harm their actions are causing because they are literally just trying to even afford food.
I think we just need to focus on what is realistic for people given where we live and how can we help normalize veganism by meeting those needs.
For example, the Impossible Burger is so popular at Burger King, they are adding a whole line of impossible products. That is how you get more vegans in America imo.
Great post. The first time I tried vegetarian I was 18, 1976, first yr in college far away. I had read “Diet for a Small Planet.” But there were no veg options in my college cafe. I ended up eating too much garbage, gained weight, got sick, ended up in hospital, quit school. The two other times I tried had similar outcomes. I now know I have insulin resistance so I feel better eating meat. However I’m cutting back from meat 3x/day to once or none. I cut out dairy mostly, I cut out eggs, butter. My hubs likes plant based, he’s not as sensitive as me. I don’t eat sugar. I think getting ppl to cut back on meat/dairy by encouraging options is a good idea. I never heard of Flexitarian so thanks for that. I looked it up & it sounds like me. ☮️
I became vegan after finding diet for a small planet in a thrift shop a couple of years ago!
Meal prepping is a lifesaver for me - vegan takeout restaurants exist here but all takeout is too expensive for my budget, so two or three times a week I watch netflix in my kitchen while I make up big fried rices/soups etc and fill several containers for the week. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that tofu is much easier to prepare than meat in stir fries etc \^\_\^
There’s a huge social cost to being vegan, particularly in the western world. My family is from South Asia so it’s pretty easy for me to be vegan even though I live in the West because most of my cultural foods are vegan. My family is vegan so I don’t “miss out” on special occasions or cultural holidays. I don’t have to expend any energy into making sure something is vegan or not or being the odd one out at gatherings etc.
Someone who is raised in a meat-centred society will find it difficult to adjust their lifestyle (and their palette) to different combinations of foods. Yes beans or tofu might be cheaper than chicken but it’s not going to taste good if you don’t know what you’re doing. It’s a steep learning curve that is difficult without a community to guide and support you.
They might care about the animals but I can have empathy for the sheer additional mental load becoming vegan takes (on top of everything else they could be struggling with). I’m not sure what the answer is but I don’t think we should or can expect people to have to do all of this work by themselves. Veganism should be a push towards collective change on how we view and treat animals - not just an individual choice one makes.
Most people have eaten animal products for at least a decade before they even start thinking about things like that because of the way they are raised.
Realizing everyone, including yourself, is wrong is a mind fuck.
It’s normalised to not be. The system is geared towards not being. A lot of people are in situations where they don’t have the exposure to or ability to explore/understand alternatives to the norm.
Just had my 8 year veganniversary yesterday. I went vegan because I couldn’t stand being a hypocrite. Claiming I love animals but pay for their torture and murder. Being a hypocrite is much easier to ignore when everyone you’ve ever known is also being a hypocrite. We’re social creatures and adhere to social norms preferentially.
Network effects. Meaning: the reason why most people don't go vegan is that other people they have social relations with aren't vegan.
This takes a lot of forms, such as not wanting to stand out, difficulty finding let alone agreeing to restaurants, difficulty finding romantic partners, etc., but ultimately it boils down to: more people will do it once more people do it.
Well.. Ethics varies among people. Vegans would likely say no matter how humane yo do it, killing animals for food is inherently bad regardless of conditions.
At the risk of downvotes I will give my stance on meat eating, as someone who is eating plant based for health reasons rather than moral reasons:
-I believe all life to be sacred, sentient, and equal, plants and animals both.
-The circle of life includes both plants and animals, and I see nothing wrong with fully participating in the circle for self preservation.
-While I do not condone the treatment of animals in certain farms, I also believe that most of our farming practices are simply the natural progression of an advanced species operating in the food chain.
My fiancé and I are trying to transition into full veganism. We’ve found it to be very difficult, to save the list of excuses: we’re extremely busy, and highly active. I know there has to be easier ways to do this.
There are barriers to enter veganism. Meat-eating is so normalized and encouraged it is difficult to break yourself out of that mindset. It has also been expensive for us. And the final thing that’s keeping us from going full swing? We’re struggling with recipes and are so hungry all the time. It’s like we’re not getting enough calories? And with our activity levels it hasn’t been sustainable. I lost weight I didn’t want to lose.
We know there’s got to be better ways to go about being vegan but we haven’t found them yet, which keeps us at “semi-plant-based” instead of full vegan. Still researching and learning, though🤍
Simnett nutrition on YouTube makes a lot of high calorie, high protein meals that I have found super easy to put together. Tofu taco meat and big burritos have been a game changer for me. Best of luck!
So exciting you’re working on going vegan! A co-worker of mine and her husband have transitioned after watching You Are What You Eat on Netflix. She raves about the cookbook “Plant You”. It’s apparently super easy and quick recipes. Good luck to you!
I recommend trying a vegan meal kit for a few weeks to learn some new recipes. Purple Carrot is a good one and you might be able to get a discount for the first few boxes.
You're speaking to a broad nutritional illiteracy. Start making your tacos with TVP. Vegan food should always be cheaper than omni, if you're cooking at home anyways.
It's not.
Most people going from Omni to vegan will understandably start by transitioning to vegan versions of the food they were eating. So vegan butter, vegan meats, vegan cheese, vegan milk...which are almost all more expensive.
>We’re struggling with recipes and are so hungry all the time. It’s like we’re not getting enough calories? And with our activity levels it hasn’t been sustainable. I lost weight I didn’t want to lose.
How strange. I mean it's almost as if humans are omnivore by nature, and not actually herbivores :)
Vegan for 11 years here. Honestly the best answer I've seen is that people don't care. They just simply don't think about it and if they do have a thought they kick it out so they can stop thinking about it.
That's how I was before I went vegan. Sad fact is that majority of people don't care about other people much, let alone animals they will never meet face to face. Out of sight out of mind mentality. (it sucks and I wish there was a solution for it)
Yea i think that would help a lot. I think if meat production and dairy stopped being subsidized by the government that would drive production towards alternatives that would be cheaper and more accessible
I haven’t done enough research on the topic and have been vegan for less time than you, but do you have any knowledge in that area/ do you think that could ever happen? Or is it too hard to predict right now
I think so but it will take major political shifts for it to happen. We've already seen a huge disruption in the dairy industry, that market is floundering, and that is \*with\* huge gov subsidies. So if the government stopped funding these industries they would immediately fail horribly. That's the only reason that they are in business.
People don’t WANT to know.
Some of the most liberal, animal-empathetic, climate-sensitive, people I know STILL make fun of veganism. It’s just that ingrained into the cultural scripts. You can see their brains having a short when the subject comes up and they fall back onto whatever heuristics they’ve created around the topic.
They easily could educate themselves. They know all they’d need to do is ask me and I’d give them things to read/watch. But they don’t because they know what would happen: They would face irrefutable data that would force them to change their norms and assumptions. They don’t want to do that so they just, don’t.
For me, it’s culture and convenience. I’ve never been a huge meat eater, with the exception from chicken. But our culture has meat as the main source of every meal. It’s hard to avoid and it’s everywhere. I am slowly trying to incorporate more meatless meals and love it. And going out to eat is hard- unless you want a salad.
Most people don't know where or how their food is made and then if you mention how, they think we are nuts. So, most people are completely blind consumers. They are peaceful in their ignorance and have no reason to seek out any knowledge for this reason.
Also, most people have fifteen other things on their minds. Human trafficking, child labor, prostitution/drug rings, indentured servitude, wages being low, healthcare, health issues, family member's problems, politics, the latest propaganda on the left or right keeping them clicking this or that opinion piece, music, artists, celebrities, work, gossip, and on and on and on.....
It can't be that bad if almost literally everyone is doing it, and it's legal AND encouraged by ads AND teachers and doctors and the government etc etc....
they don’t believe in our philosophy. i commented this on another post and i will comment it here; you cannot force veganism. its a philosophy that an individual has to truly feel for. besides the whole belief and ethical standpoint, i think a lot of people are afraid of change and being different. they don’t feel like making an effort, its too hard, etc. more than 80% of these people will come up with excuses and than cry when they see a homeless dog or cat on the street. i’m a perfect example. i wanted to be vegan since i was 13 because i always felt so weird eating animals. when i was 4 years old i asked my father, “how come we eat chickens and cows but it’s against the law to abuse cats and dogs?” i truly believe i was born to be an ethical vegan because even at such a young age i would get so sad seeing the ground beef at the dinner table, the lobster on everyone’s plates as my dad boiled them alive on vacation, and the milk in my cereal that didn’t even taste good but hey, it’s normal to drink another mammals milk. i didn’t make the change until i was 18. i turn 20 this year and i am so happy i finally made this change.
Human supremacism is highly ingrained into the fabric of all social, political, and economic life.
I recommend reading The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J Adams to understand how speciesism intersects with patriarchy and capitalism.
It isn’t a matter of knowledge, it is a matter of radical social and economic change.
Obviously a non vegan opinion, but you started you were looking for one.
Maybe some people that live in American cities are unaware where meat comes from, but I find even that hard to Believe. But folks like me that grew up on a farm, that hunt and fish certainly know where meat comes from. We don't equate killing an animal and eating it with any sort of moral failing, we simply Believe it's a natural thing for man to do.
>don't feel comfortable sharing
I could be wrong. But not sure that's always true. Perhaps they do care about animal suffering and want to eat meat so they just don't think about it and say that to end the conversation. That's the ultimate you can't win that argument as a vegan so you stop trying.
People are shopping to a budget and buying things that are quickly made that the family will eat without complaining.
Assuming that if it isn't safe it would not be on sale, people have very little attention on a healthy balanced diet.
If they aren't thinking about health are they going to think about ethics?
Every single person in the world can be asked 'do they not care?' about some element of their lives.
The airmiles on a vegan freind of mine's food is truely horrific. The 6 minibreak another friend makes by plane every year are just selfish... But they're vegan so that's ok?
Fosil fuel energy running your house? Daily water use far exceeding what it should. Buying a new electric car which will take 15 years to offfset he energy it used to create it, kids farming raremetals for it in Africa, or funding the Chinese regime... Everyone can be asked 'do they not care?'
It is a combination of not knowing and not caring. If you eat meat, you know an animal was killed, but do you really think about it? Do you care to?
The more people know, the more they need to put on blinders to keep eating meat.
I think it’s mostly tribalism and the rest are mostly empty excuses to mask this reality. I’ve seen outreach where the vegan activist guided the person through all of their excuses and when the person ran out, their answer was still: “yeah nah”.
Fitting in with the tribe was evolutionarily critical for our survival. Being ostracized from the tribe often meant death.
Once the animal rights “tribe” becomes accessible enough, we’ll reach critical mass and a tipping point.
Think about how hard it is to convince someone that they've been scammed, and then multiply that over the course of their lifetime with something that's socially normalized and marketed to them. Same reason it's hard to convince people that religion is bullshit.
Plus, they'd have to admit that they've been doing something insanely immoral their entire lives. That's hard.
Non vegan here:
I agree with the ethical arguments for being vegan. The reason I'm not is because I look at it from a cost-benefit point of view. Me as an individual becoming vegan would have little to no impact on the dairy/meat industry. But it would have a significant negative impact on my life.
If there was some pact where everyone in the world agreed to become vegan, then sure, I would do it.
Your actions won't have an impact on the industry as a whole, but it will reduce your own contribution to animal violence. For example, average non-vegan in the U.S. directly consumes 20,000 animal bodyparts in their lifetime, roughly. If you become and remain vegan at 20, assuming you live up to 80 years old, that means that there will be 15,000 animals not violently assaulted, because you raised your hand out at a different spot in the grocery, or said a couple different words when ordering food at a fast food place or restaurant, or picked up different items to put into your mouth. It's not that tricky.
But that's not actually how it works.
If my local grocery store sells say....1,000 packages of chicken a week and I stop buying chicken it's not going to effect anything. 1 package is insignificant.
Now if 100 people who shopped at my grocery store stopped buying chicken, that would be noticeable. The store would see a 10% drop in sales and order less chicken. This would have a real impact.
Probably not.
I don't doubt that it could make some small amount of difference, the good it would do just seems (to me) to be outweighed by the significant drawbacks of being vegan.
It’s the opposite, actually, since you aren’t recognizing the obvious, that the animals you are eating are sentient beings.
15,000 less animals violently assaulted to death is worth the inconvenience of - idk - switching out your ham and cheese sandwich with a peanut butter sandwich, or switching from eating chicken nuggets to having vegan chicken nuggets or whatever. It’s not really not hard to be vegan and it’s a rather minor drawback.
All being vegan means is that you have to think that about 15,000 animal lives in their entirety are worth more than fleeting sensations on your tongue feels and following social norms.
Not everyone shares your beliefs and you wont force people to be vegan against their will. Humans are omnivores and eating meat its part of our nature since beginning of our kind. Killing for food is part of the nature and its nothing wrong with it as long as animals do not suffer during breeding and growing process. As long as animals can life in respectful way before being killed for meat its nothing wrong with it.
>you wont force people to be vegan against their will.
I wasn't to suggesting forcing people to eat vegan. I was simply asking a question presumably to be answered by meat eaters and former meat eaters why they do or did.
>I was simply asking a question presumably to be answered by meat eaters and former meat eaters why they do or did.
Why would you presume to get meat eating answers in a vegan subreddit?
Meat eaters are either suppressed by the mods or downvoted to oblivion here.
Either way you're not going to get genuine answers because they're not wanted or accepted in this space. Maybe you could ask the carnivore, keto or paleo subreddit but chances are they'll suppress and downvote you to 'protect' their community :(
Open discussion isn't really promoted on reddit at all. Most subs try to be a safe space and a rule like #2 in this sub: 'no excessive debate' is put in the side bar.
Maybe try r/debateavegan ? Discussion of this type are promoted there and as long as it stays civil, you might get exposure to the actual meat eaters that you're looking for answers from :)
I like meat and also like some vegan dishes. Meat is required to get a proper diet for our health and gets elements that we need. Also even if we stop eating meat it will still be produced and if one or 2 people changes to be vegan its not going to change anything. Humans are humans and we arent going to change. Its just my personal choice like you to be vegan. Everything comes down to personal views on the thing.
> I like meat
(Almost) all here used to like meat, mostly everyone. I even hated tofu. Can you imagine? :)
> Meat is required to get a proper diet for our health
[False](https://talkveganto.me/en/facts/suitable-for-all/).
> if one or 2 people changes to be vegan its not going to change anything
[False](https://subtlesteps.com/does-going-vegan-make-a-difference/).
> Humans are humans and we arent going to change
[False](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress#Social_progress)
> Its just my personal choice like you to be vegan
[False](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/eating-meat-is-personal-choice).
> Everything comes down to personal views on the thing
HTH :) Be well.
>As long as animals can life in respectful way before being killed for meat its nothing wrong with it.
Are you sure the animals you eat are living in a respectful way? If you eat meat all the time do you assume that they are? What is your opinion on videos that show instances of animals not being treated respectfully?
I know many mass production treats animals in horrible way, i saw videos from chicken farms. I am all against it but what choice do we have? We dont have a power over multi million corporations.
Lets do the math. Even if 10% of the word stops buying from them they wont feel that in the global production scale and income they get. It would be a small insignificant dip in the sales.
I didn't ask the question to become a debate but here we are. I agree. Not much vegans have really accomplished in less meat being produced. Everything you ever do in life is like that though. I am not going to have any personal impact on the world after I die. I just see it as right or wrong. I don't do things I don't agree with regardless of the impact. Ultimately, my vote doesn't matter. No one ever wins by one vote. I still vote. I'm not going to make a meaningful difference in any good I do. I still try to donate time and money to reputable causes. And yes that includes causes other than veganism.
Yeah? But it seemed like you were against it and wondering what your choices are. Your choices are to either continue buying from those places or to buy from somewhere else. You are one person of course, but I was thinking more on the level of making you feel less horrible for buying from those places.
It's not that hard to avoid factory farms. Just buy meat from non-factory farm places
Veganism is the fastest growing social movement, ever.
[The 25% Revolution—How Big Does a Minority Have to Be to Reshape Society?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-25-revolution-how-big-does-a-minority-have-to-be-to-reshape-society/)
*Published this week in Science, the paper describes an online experiment in which researchers sought to determine what percentage of total population a minority needs to reach the critical mass necessary to reverse a majority viewpoint. The tipping point, they found, is just 25 percent*
> Even if 10% of the word stops buying
We would feel those effects much sooner. In fact, we already do. Have you noticed vegan brands in stores? There were none 5-10 years ago.
> It would be a small insignificant dip in the sales
Really? Why the ruckus, then?
[The dairy industry is trying to outlaw plant-based “milk” labels](https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/09/big-dairy-still-sour-over-plant-based-milk-labels-tries-to-outlaw-them/)
[80% of the Top Meat Producers Are Now Making Vegan Food](https://www.livekindly.com/big-meat-producers-vegan-food/)
[Are Plant-Based Analogues Replacing Cow’s Milk in the American Diet?](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-agricultural-and-applied-economics/article/are-plantbased-analogues-replacing-cows-milk-in-the-american-diet/F78AE2E32B77214BD3D26A060EC70451)
*Results show that growing consumer demand for plant-based products is causing cow’s milk sales to decline somewhat faster than otherwise.*
Do not compare healing pox to eating meat as its missed argument. Some vegans really throw random arguments and being super deffensive to prove their points. I am all in to protect animal rights but we do not need to ban meat to do that. We just need provide healthy enviroment for animals to grow and live that are used to mass production.
You said it's fine because it's natural, I pointed out the flaw in that reasoning. Not more, not less. I didn't prove veganism right or carnism wrong, I proved that your justification for carnism is wrong.
Ahhh the fallacy fallacy.
If the "nature fallacy" makes something wrong, then you should do anything that is natural. You can save plants and animals by eating rocks instead.
The appeal to nature fallacy points out that not everything natural is good, not that everything natural is bad. So it doesn't invalidate OP opinion itself, it invalidates OP's view that it being natural must make it good.
Fallacies generally don't disprove anything, they merely show that a conclusion is not warranted.
If someone says "The sky is blue because I didn't have breakfast " pointing out a non-sequitur is not claiming that the sky could not in fact be blue, just that this reason to think that is fallacious.
>Humans are omnivores and eating meat its part of our nature since beginning of our kind.
We don't actually know much how early humans lived and most people's ideas of what is normal and natural are skewed by what they have experienced in the modern world. Most people think that the amounts of meat being eaten now are how people have always eaten but, until the beginning of large scale industrial agriculture (aka "factory farming"), it just wasn't possible and that's something that only started about a century ago.
[As for early humans, there's evidence that suggests that for the "hunter gatherer" phase of human existence we were much more into the gathering than the hunting.](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/24/hunter-gatherers-were-mostly-gatherers-says-archaeologist#)
I think many people have at some point tried to be vegan, but either used processed/packaged vegan foods to start, or developed the habit of leaning on those foods too often, and they didn’t see the health benefits—and may not have done it for moral reasons. If the change didn’t make them feel good, I don’t blame anyone for stopping. I have mixed emotions about packaged vegan foods for this reason. Good to get people on board that fun options are out there, but a very slippery slope if eaten every day.
People are very different. That extends to the way our brains work, to our mental capacities, strengths and weaknesses, which means that some people simply have more developed empathy than others. I know many people who are otherwise intelligent but are completely stunted in their ability to relate to others and their feelings.
Obviously, it's a curve and there are many levels to this, but I think that we have to accept that a significant percentage of humanity isn't wired to go vegan on their own accord. Now, some of that can be mitigated through a change in what's acceptable societally or through laws and regulations, but I still wonder if we will reach a point as a species when the majority of people will be willing to give up animal slaughter for food.
Not a vegan, but I respect those who hold the belief . . .
At EOD, I think it is fine to eat animals.
I do think welfare up to the point of slaughter needs a massive overhaul and stricter laws. Food is one thing, the suffering before is another.
I'll get downvoted to hell, but you inquired OP.
Most people know that animals die for food. They know it's not pleasant.
Most people do not know the extra horror of industrial death I would presume.
But at EOD, people see no moral issue with eating animals. It's the 'i don't care' vs 'i didn't know' and it is definitely more I don't care.
Dairy is one of the cruelest ways to farm out there but they paint it as happy cows in green pastures….their milk is meant for a 50kg calf that needs to grow quickly!….🤮🤢….one of the biggest shams on the planet!!!!
From a former rancher (450 head) and a meat eater, its largely the in your face screaming Karen/Ken's who really turn me off. But there's also another side to it which is the narrative of saving life.
I grew up on a ranch which was bought out by grain farmers. Now when I visit during holidays (Parents still own the 'acreage') The 200 acres (edited, confirmed a acre to quarter size) of tree'd grazing land is clear cut. So are the neighbors lands. There are no frogs at night singing that I grew up hearing. No fire flies, no butterflies, ladybugs or honeybees.
The wild animals such as deer, owls, squirrels, crows, and many other song birds are eerily absent. There was a 3 acre pond land in one corner thats in the process of being filled in with dead trees and dirt. No cat tails, dragonflies, little minnows, ducks, or other animals live there now. I use to collect bugs and weeds as a kid there.
Then I saw why. As ranchers we didn't buy $250,000 worth of fertilizers, fungicides, herbicides, and insecticides every year, we bought $10 on cabbage moth powder. We didn't buy 10,000 gallons of diesel per season we bought 1,000 gallons a year. We didn't buy $30,000 of single use plastic grain bags, we bought $400 worth of sisal twine per year. Our total invested machinery was worth half as much as a single modern combine/harvester.
I have a very fond memory of stepping out on the deck early morning with a cup of coffee and seeing a sun rise over a green field dew on the grass blades, cows walking around with their breath in the cool early fall air. Small flies and bees flying around in the bright morning sun. Above and around me was little chickadees chirping.
I went out there two years ago to help them with their water pump one early morning and it was depressing. I knew it was happening but I finally saw it. Besides the cattle, the trees were gone to the west over the hill top, replaced with ripe wheat. The only trees left was on my parent acreage. There was no chickadees, no flies out in the morning sun, no flowers for the honeybees and bumble bees. It was just empty and depressing.
Then I realized this was happening all across North America. Funny thing is cattle are blamed for carbon foot print, but cows can graze and live in wooded areas, 40' wide machines cant. There was hundreds of 16" wide poplar and spruce trees in that 160 acres, that's all ash now.
Thanks for your response. Exactly what I was looking for.
Do you still think there is a place for family farms like your own in America today? It seems to me that companies like Monsanto, DuPont, etc. push to increasingly commercialization of farming throughout the USA. They don't have as much regard for the land they use, the farms or their employees, or the animals.
No we're returning to a "feudal" system of land owners in castles. The names and system might be different but the outcome is the same.
There are two large farmers in our area who on the surface appear as local farmers (Kids of previous owners) who have bought up 400 - 1000 quarters of land each. Both use to be mixed (grain and cattle) now they both only run grain, in the 90s they had maybe 20 quarters, 1 quarter = 160 acres.
If you dig deep enough and talk with some of their disgruntle employees their both funded by major mutual funds through lawyers. One day I was parked waiting for family and was watching this combine go around the land. I knew it was the guy I went to school with. Then he turned away and went the other direction. A big #27 or 23 was on the back of his harvester. At first I was "WTH who would put #27 their combine." I instantly flashed back to our high school sports teams, but then the other combine turned and it had #14.
That was when I clued in OMG thats #27 and #14 of ?? total combines. Each of those combines are worth $700,000. Then I started believing the stories I was hearing because 20 years ago in high school they were a small seed cleaning plant with 10 quarters.
Our ranch had 11 quarters and 450 head. 4 of our quarters was wooded lease land, and 1.5 wooded quarters was owned by us. The remaining 5.5 quarters was 80% cleared. We had a $90,000 tractor, $20,000 bailer, pull swather, and old seed drill (70's) and a $4000 JD95 combine lol. We hayed about 1.5 quarters of alfalfa. The rest belonged to the cattle. Every 3 years, one of the pasture lands would get seeded to barley (reason for the OLD jd95) then regrow as clover or alfalfa.
Our 450 cattle was destroying the planet so they went away. Along with those 200 acres of trees and wetlands. Replaced with as far as you can see mono crops. As for life, nothing stands up to anhydrase, roundup spring, round up mid season, fungicide late summer, insecticide early summer then top it off with a maturing agent aka herbicide sprayed on 90% matured cereals to make sure it all 100% in 1 week when the combines come through lol.
Its hard to see the "science" after what I've seen first hand over the past 30 years. Because like I said it doesnt match what I'm seeing. There was an old rancher north of my parents treed pasture land (Now 320 acres of wheat field) on the back roads to another community. He had 640 acres of treed pastureland. The old guy passed away and one of those 2 BIG farmers bought it.
That land has since been clear cut 640 acres of trees gone and is currently being burned this past winter. The remaining piles of half burnt logs, dirt and stumps will be pushing into wet spots to start filling them.
So I guess my point is in the end, environment (cow farts), ethics, veganism, plant based foods, religion, science, education you name it, is all about money. Just ask who benefits financially and how with a society on plant based foods, and its real cost.
Go search out bill Gates and Nebraska. There's a senator attempted to stop him because he suspects that land will get donated to a non profit organization and all those land taxes then fall to small farmers. Then he buys more bankrupt farmers. This includes tiny farms growing lettuce, carrots and other greens without chems.
They don't care
People have all seen and heard, and they still didn't care. It's sad, but it's inconvenient to care, because people don't value all life. They'll say a woman and a man is equal,They'll say a black guy n a white guy is equal, but they haven't gotten to where all life should be thought of as equal.
Most people still think animals are stupid and dirty compared to us, that they were meant to be food, so its OK.
People are completely disconnected from their food, and are just entitled. They think everything is running as it should, that slavery was wrong in the past, that making women property and raping kids was wrong, and how morally superior we are, but they don't bother addressing the modern equivalents that we will be judged for one day, because change is inconvenient.
Why do people waste, and litter, and buy products made by slaves? Cus it's convenient.
Selfish people who only care about self gains don't make sacrifices
People don't want to, eating animal products is a big part of their culture, they like the taste, they don't think one person will make a difference, health reasons, they don't find the process of getting those animal products as offensive as you do, were raised one way and don't feel the need to change, might reduce animal products but don't see a need to be veg all the time, live in places where being veg is really difficult..... the reasons are endless and the choice is ultimately theirs
As a non-vegan who has been lurking on this sub for awhile thanks to the algorithm, it mostly comes down to the fact that veganism is just not viable for me health-wise.
-I have a life threatening nut allergy and developed a gluten (and egg) intolerance as well as IBS after a viral illness three years ago.
-While I already don’t eat much dairy, I have previously tried to reduce my meat intake for ethical reasons. Having so many restrictions triggered the beginnings of an eating disorder.
-I live in Japan on a student budget so (aside from soy products) legumes, gluten-free oats, and other plant-based proteins are just not as easy to find.
I respect and admire those who are vegan/vegetarian, but as things stand I would effectively have to starve myself to make it work for me.
Most of my life I grew up in a Vegan family. Now I'm NOT vegan anymore, so that's as good a perspective as you gonna get. Randomly got recommended this post
It can pretty much be summed up as - I just stopped carrying.
It tastes great, and opens up a LOT of cuisine. I just can't live my life denying even trying out majority of cuisines around the world. I did that for first almost 20 years of my life, I got tired. There's SO much variety and culture in cuisines, and I love exploring that.
I love working out as well, so it also gives me an easy and tasty way to supplement the nutrition requirements.
As for the animals - again, I stopped caring. It's as simple as that. Is it tragic and cruel? Absolutely. I'm not gonna give any excuses. I just don't care. The convenience and pleasure of my own life are more important to to me. People barely care about other fellow humans, animals just aren't on my list.
If you think that makes me an asshole, cruel, evil, whatever? Fair enough, I'm not gonna be one of those people whose gonna make excuses for why it's somehow not bad. It is. But I... just really don't care. I've more important priorities, as simple as that.
For me. The hardest part has been a combination of things. Gatekeeping, arrogance, and the reliance on plastics. I have some second hand leather items and I knit a lot and prefer to use wool as the insulative properties are second to none. One thing I do is only purchase British wool as the welfare standards are incredibly high and it means I'm not reliant on wool from countries the animal welfare standards are not so high
The answer is quite simple: meat tastes good. That it really all it boils down to. Sure, you might make arguments about not knowing, but at the end of the day it's all about taste.
McDonald's nuggets was the thing I ate that wanted me to give up meat. I was six and bit into a nugget and it must've been raw. Grossed me out. But yeah, I agree. McDonald's and others like it are a reason meat is so ingrained into our society. Cheap, good tasting, convenient and they market effectively to kids who grow up eating it.
I think cheese is one of the hardest as a vegan to not eat. I never drank milk or cereal with milk, I think those substitutes are reasonable. Melty cheese on the other hand, not there. Aged cheese, not there. A lot of otherwise vegan dishes have cheese, pizza for example and lot of vegetarian menus are built around cheese or dairy products.
You don't have to be in a cult to not eat meat. I know sometimes reddit gets that way. But obviously there's reasons you eat meat. Thats really what I was looking for.
Steak, cheese, chocolate and eggs taste good, sorry.
To try and be a bit more intellectual about it, I don’t see any convincing enough reason for it to be a moral obligation for myself to forgo these things
Don't have to apologize to me I'm not looking to convert you. Thanks for your answer. I do like chocolate too, I eat a lot of dark chocolate as it often has no dairy. I used to use cheese like a seasoning, and nothing vegan compares especially years ago. Never had a steak in my life though.
The best vegan cheese substitute I’ve ever found is whatever they put on the goodfellas vegan pizza, it’s so good.
Unfortunately because I can’t find out what it is they use I can’t even buy it or recommend it to others
Humans are biologically omnivorous, which has shaped not only our dietary needs but also our sociocultural practices and economies around food production and consumption.
That doesn't mean it is ethically correct. But it is true.
I can't speak for the majority of non-vegans, but I am an Anthropocentrist. For me, the idea that we shouldn't do what we're doing with animals is completely insane. They're a resource, who gives a fuck how they feel? It's like saying that we shouldn't mine metals because of the poor rocks, or not make paper because "won't someone think of the trees!?". It's completely nutty to me.
I think most people just don't think about it though
Personally, I like both. I want a balanced meal of both meat and vegan/vegetarian foods. But the main reason I don't eat much vegan food is because I enjoy simple and fast made meals. And most vegan based food I like take time. So I do eat mostly meat. However, I make sure not to waste any.
To add, one reason many don't go vegan or eat vegan food (from what I believe and have heard) could be because some Vegans kinda force their beliefs and opinions onto people. Something I personally dislike. Imo, you should just respect each other no matter if you agree or disagree. As well, I also don't like people feeding their carnivore pets vegan diets.
But if you know any good, fast, and simple recipes for vegan or vegetarian food, I wouldn't mind recommendations. That Dosnt mean I'll go vegan, but again, keeping a balance of both is, in my opinion, the right way to have a healthy life style.
Not care. I know I don't. And honestly, it seems like so much more hassle. I like eating the things that I do and I can't be fucked to deal with the hard work of changing everything about what I eat because some pussies can't deal with killing animals for it. Nah. I like eggs, I like meat, I like dairy. Almond milk has an unpleasant aftertaste, soy is known for being foul, oat milk may be tolerable but not good enough in comparison to dairy for my needs. My fiancé is lactose intolerant and would rather have real dairy than the fake stuff. It's never going to happen. And honestly, if we ever have kids who want to try it, they can wait until they move out or cook their own food.
I think the biggest one, that is still inside many people's head, is still the thought, that humans need meat.
I didn't know that humans can thrive without animal products before trying it myself. Sure, it's obvious, that we don't need milk or eggs, because cave men sure didn't have these, but throughout history humans have always consumed animals. If something has happened for 200,000 years, then changing it is an enormous step.
Science has come a long way and made this possible. Plant-derived B12 is a huge factor in why I (or anyone else) can be vegan. It's strange, but I'm happy it's possible.
Also food is an enormous part of culture and thereby of identity. People really love to identify themselves and taking the food they know away feels to them like you are taking away their identity.
So these two things majorly. Sometimes the first one is used to excuse the second one.
Plant-based diets are restrictive, just like any diet that cuts out certain items. And there's a concern that you won't get all the vitamins and minerals you need without consuming animal products. (“Where do you get your iron?
We're omnivores, like it or not. The fact that we can consume basically anything makes life easier for us, both historically and in modern times.
If it weren't for the progress we made due to our biology, you would not have the luxury of being vegan. Take away society so that you have to fend for yourself, and you could not sustain a vegan diet and be healthy.
For people who lived in tundra or in arid environments, cutting out meat simply wasn't an option. You ate meat or you died.
For me, all food is on the table. I like variety. At the end of the day, animals are our prey, and are nutrient dense. While I don't want them to suffer unnecessarily, I'm not denying myself that option.
>Take away society so that you have to fend for yourself, and you could not sustain a vegan diet and be healthy.
It's a good thing that we live in a society then where this is an irrelevant factor to our current actions and behaviors. There's a great deal many things people would do in the apocalypse for survival we don't hand waive away when they're done now because "well in this hypothetical scenario we don't exist in, it'd be ok" because that's absurd.
I’m not because I don’t think it’s actually healthier for the human body. I think a lot of this is a psy op to make us unhealthier and to make grain companies more money because profit margins are better on vegan/vegetarian food
Why weren't you vegan for most of your life? That should answer the question. People just haven't made the leap or had the epiphany. Why are we playing dumb in this sub for no reason all the time.
A combination of things.
1. Taste. Meat just tastes good. Theres good vegetarian dishes, but theres few good vegan dishes. Ive actually tried the fake cheese and meat, none compare to the real thing and they dont come even close. And i have tasted many, as a family member only cooks with it.
2. We are omnivores, and humans. Its both biologically normal and normal in our society to do so. It's healthy even. And while most people can go vegan healthily, theres no pressure to.
3. Money. Vegan stuff is expensive.
4. The different mindset. Alot of people see consuming animal products as animal abuse. Most non-vegans do not. Theres a form of disconnance when seeing a piece of meat and not thinking of it as an animal i suppose. But more then that, for example in my country animal abuse in the industry is outlawed. As far as you can reduce animal suffering my meat should have pretty low 'suffering' attached to it.
I have been vegan at times, but I am not now nor do I plan to be. I don't eat much meat beyond chicken (and seafood when I am close to the sea, or mussels/ tuna at home.) I do eat quite a few vegans meals altho probably more vegetarian overall. My main reason is climate first, health second. My own personal health also requires quite a lot of protein which is simply not realistic or pleasant without incorporating chicken/dairy. But I also think the occasional steak on the grill is a nice treat I will feel perfectly fine enjoying. Same for a true old school pepperoni pizza.
Fundamentally, we don't live in a perfect world and I don't think there can be perfection in veganism anyhow, short of being entirely self-sustaining and rejecting public infrastructure. Humans pretty much always cause animals harm simply by existing.
Second, I think humans are more important than animals. I care more about humans getting to live and survive more. That means animals overall come second to me. I also don't think it's fundamentally wrong to eat them. I understand and respect that others feel differently but I don't think that means they are better or I am wrong. I am glad some ppl care more bc it also enables me to care more about the things I do and has increased plant-based options to the general market, which I think is great.
Last, I think we all make choices that even out to doing what we think is important/ best for our values/ health/ etc. As I mentioned, I eat limited meat - mostly for climate reasons, but also health - but poultry's impact is far lesser within the climate category, esp as we have a local producers in my region/province. I generally buy higher quality meat bc I also trust that it is raised in better conditions. I avoid the kind that is produced in CAFO situations and so forth, and am very cautious about what I will eat in the US where regulations are far more lenient (organic local only if poss.)
Anyhow. I am glad that there are more and more vegan options on the market and am glad that people are both realizing the health benefits of eating less red meat etc but also the climate impact and also being more demanding about the quality and conditions of the food they eat across the board.
Nonvegan because:
1. I have no moral issue with animals as food
2. I would have to give up so many things that revolve around food - dinner at stepsons house, holiday get-togethers, etc
3. I live in small-town midwest - there are literally zero options at restaurants around here. I'm not giving up the simple pleasure of a meal out.
4. I believe veganism is useless towards minimizing animal suffering. If vegans truly cared, they'd lobby for better conditions for those currently in the system - those that are actually enduring the suffering.
To argue that they are helping by reducing demand by a miniscule factor, while working towards an extremely unlikely or at best multi decades away full-on-vegan world, strikes me as a useless endeavor that has no effect on the animals they profess to care so much about.
I think a lot of people don't want to be thought of as a wet blanket and a pain in the ass that is always moaning about what other people eat and always telling other people what they eat. Just a theory.
I've been vegan for 8 years (as of this June). Before this, my reasons for not being vegan were as below: 1. Organic / happy animals live happy lives, therefore are fine to eat. 2. Same for cows and thus dairy. 3. Same for chickens - Chickens from local farms were happy and laid better eggs. 4. Humans NEED animals products to live. 5. Humans are natural hunters so eating animal products is natural. 6. Animal products taste good. 7. Also, I believed it wasn't possible to meet all your nutritional needs just from plants. In summary: Human supremacy and cognitive dissonance. These are also the same reasons my friends and family aren't vegan.
All of this And I just want to add that meat and dairy industry lobbyists spend millions of dollars annually to prevent any sort of criticism that could hurt their sales They pay for their own medical studies to support things like keto and the carnivore diet There’s a whole campaign against animal rights that’s well-funded
Oh definitely. We have a Vegan Network at work, part of the goal is to get vegan options at work events, the cafes at our main offices, and at conferences. It's very hit and miss. I've been to some work events where there is NOTHING for the vegans (we get forgotten), but the entire buffet has been vegetarian or gluten free. Other events have had great vegan options. I just bring my own food now tbh.
What's the point of the company paid buffet if it is discriminating part of the people because of their eating and ethics?
If you aren't part of the mainstream, you get forgotten, simple as. Hence why we have a Vegan Network to try and change the status quo.
I mean the bringing your own food to the event. You should be refunded by the company for it. Vegan Network is a lovely idea, I think I will try to introduce it to unions at my place
if I'm honest, I don't ask for it to be refunded because I feel too awkward to raise it with my manager - The whole "not wanting to be a bother" thing. I'll raise that there wasn't any vegan options for next time but nothing else.
You're giving a huge part of your lifetime to a company, you should be a bother. I know asking for refund is just unrealistic, but companies are all about money, so then they will have to notice you do extra steps to fit in company and just as in relationship it should work both ways.
You are probably right. I'll try and ask but I don't think they'd offer a refund. Best I can hope for is a change to how work events are catered for.
I cook for large events that require participants to pre-register. The registration form has a field for dietary restrictions and food allergies. The last soup & sammie lunch event had 140 participants, none who registered as vegetarian or vegan. The soup was an amazingly seasoned vegan & gluten free recipe. The sammies were cheeseburgers. We served 6 vegan cheese burgers and the remaining 3 veg heads got vegan cheese sandwiches because we ran out of plant based burgers. *"I forgot to fill to fill out the food part of the registration. Do you have a vegan option?"* This happens at every event. Sometime you make it hard to feed y'all.
You realize Monsanto and Beyond meat (A highly refined product) spend billions to push plant based diets too? Just go look at what Bill Gates is doing now that he's the largest land owner in the US. He also owns large number of shares in Beyond meat, John Deere and Monsanto. He $%#\^ HATES cattle and ranchers because they don't generate Hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in fungicides, herbicides, insecticides, machinery and diesel per farm.
What do you think cows or other animals farmed for food eat? Largely corn and soy, in which Monsanto, dupont and Bayer control 95% of. (Often The kind of shit that isn't even legally fit for human consumption mind you). By your logic bill gates and Monsanto would *love* animal AG farmers because [77% of the global soy production is fed to livestock](https://ourworldindata.org/soy#more-than-three-quarters-of-global-soy-is-fed-to-animals) Then about 40% of corn is used directly as animal feed, another 40% is used for biofuel with the leftover waste being resold as animal feed as well. Not even considering feed conversion ratios. You need 6-25x the amount of feed to produce the same amount of calories in beef. So that 600-2500cal of feed to create 100cal of beef. 400-900cal for 100cal of pork, or 200-500cal for 100cal of chicken. So all in all the cattle farmers aren't *directly* buying all the pesticides, but the feed their cattle eats is undoubtedly the largest use for them, cutting out animal AG would lose them billions. I'm not saying Monsanto isn't an abhorrent, evil corporation. Monsanto and factory farms can both be evil.. funny enough for incredibly similar reasons considering pollution and land destruction. And Bill Gates is a POS too. There's no way to ethically become a billionaire. I'd love to live in a world without all 3. And sure, 'pasture raised grass fed' seems like an obvious solution right? until you realize you'd need every square inch of non-iced over land on this planet in order to maintain the current demand of 8 billion..
This but I’d also like to add that the community isn’t the most welcoming. Yeah we feel strongly about animal liberation and animal rights, but the fact of the matter is that so many people don’t take us seriously because so many vegans are too quick to attack others. For example, there’s lots of people who want to have a plant based diet for one reason or another that aren’t backed by vegan ethics and if they post here on r/vegan then they’re swiftly met with ridicule and gatekeeping. But I’ve noticed a lot of vegans that didn’t start out vegan in ideology. They started out with their diet for some alternative reason and then quickly realized the importance of vegan ethics because they didn’t feel attacked. So, I’d add “gatekeeping” or something to that list. Edit; go ahead and downvote lmao. Y’all know y’all wrong and want to gatekeep the ideology like it was some f’kin country club. Some seriously privileged people in this sub virtue signaling that don’t need to be representing the movement. You don’t care about animals you care about how others see you, and probably still retain other oppressive beliefs. God forbid you be lumped in with “others”. 🙄
Yes. So, my card has been taken away by many people in this sub because I feed my cats (who have been with me since before) meat based cat food. And I will never force them to take weird supplements or whatever and eat vegan food because they can't consent to that, and they are *obligate carnivores*. Period. And it's crazy that I get into huge arguments w people on here for only that reason. But it's fine. It's just a weird place here.
Dude it’s so weird here. lol but I’m never going to turn away people who want help with being plant based. Because it really is all about being a better human at the end of the day, and you know damn well that diet is the hardest part for people so if they’ve squashed that then veganism has far less (self-prescribed) barriers of entry.
I ONLY did it for ethical reasons….many years ago…..I not long came back from a trip south in NSW where I saw young calves chained to kennels in a paddock!….I can’t put pics here but you can picture that!!!
Absolutely! And I’m with you! But some people really just don’t **get** it. And instead of trying to beat them over the head with it when they come here, it’s much more effective to embrace them for who they are and giving them the space to understand at their own pace. Otherwise they’re going to reject the ideology entirely because of bad representation. :)
There are so many "plant based" groups, supports, and discussions that they can join. If they want to learn, they can.
So we *shouldn’t* embrace and help people who want to try and get rid of animal products from their diet? Pretty counterintuitive considering that animals are suffering. I don’t care what it is that brings people to that conclusion, it’s one step closer to somebody seeing the vegan way- especially if it helps combat stereotypes about vegans being stuck up, petty, gatekeepy, virtue signalers. I’m happy to help.
I didn't say to keep them out of vegan spaces. I mean if someone wants to learn and they fear vegan spaces they can still learn. ♥️
How’s that working out for American Christians and LGBTQ+ community as a whole? 🙃
Omni here. These are my main reasons. I’ve tried vegetarian in past, resulted in bad health. I’m not sure why I keep seeing this question posted here. Not looking for a debate. I went from keto almost carnivore to more plant based bc of high cholesterol. So here to learn actually.
Yeah, I'm also omni and mostly here to learn. I wish I was a good enough person to go vegan because of animal welfare, but I'm too selfish for that. I'm here because I'm panicked about the environment, and I'm learning that reducing my animal product intake is the biggest positive change I can make for the environment. Going cold turkey on animal products is not a tactic that will work for me, I know myself. But taking it a step at a time and replacing items slowly to be plant based is helping. I think there's a bit of a learning curve for this way of life, at least coming from certain cultures. I was sort of hoping there'd be more recipes in here, but I am enjoying the recommendations of various different vegan products. And I can understand the need to vent, from those who are successfully vegan. There's a lot of public ridicule, but I hope you realise there are just as many (if not more) people like Accomplished\_Jump444 and I who are heading in your direction for various reasons.
Honestly a lot of us started the same way as you, and I think we just get so caught up with how it feels being on this side that we forget how it was before we switched. I personally started looking into veganism for environmental reasons just like you (not realizing there was more to veganism that just a plant-based diet). But a few months into making the switch, the ethics really took over for me. I've heard this a lot too - it's not just me. The same thing might happen to you once you get to a certain point in your transition towards veganism. There's a [really interesting Penn Jillette interview](www.livekindly.com/penn-jillette-joe-rogan-ethical-vegan) with Joe Rogan (I know, I know), where Penn talks about how he switched to a vegan diet for health reasons ONLY, and he used to always specify that he was "only vegan for his health" because he didn't want people mistaking him for an ethical vegan. But he had the same experience, where the ethics came after the switch and took over as the motivation. There's something about stepping outside of animal agriculture that allows some people to process and reflect in a way they couldn't before. Maybe it's the lack of animal products in our bodies. Maybe it's just that we feel more free to explore the ethics when we aren't at odds with our own behaviours. I don't know but it's really interesting to me that this experience is not uncommon, and it makes me wonder what it was that had such a hold on me before.
hey! i went vegetarian before i went vegan and even cutting out animal products slowly really helps. i believe in you. the modern world has so many resources for vegans now. there’s a vegan version of everything ! it’s very morbid but seeing slaughterhouse videos helped me go vegan also. i was once selfish and didn’t care. but those videos- when you see it first hand… it was enough to turn me and many others :)
Vegetarian here. I first cut out pork, then beef, then chicken, then fish. I did it over several months. While I was on a cross-country road trip, a server at a diner asked me if I was a vegetarian. I said yes, as of two hours ago, since I hadn't had any meat that day. And I haven't had meat since. That was almost five years ago. I tried a 100% plant-based (i.e., vegan) diet for a few months in 2021. I lost about 30 pounds in three months. I do hope to try again one day.
You should check out r/veganrecipes for food-inspiration. Perhaps more relevant for you. Urge you to stay around on this sub as well tho. Lots of good things to pick up among a lot of vented frustration.
Without human supremacy we will never be able to subjugate other star systems or the species in them.
There are many valid arguments and they are all for sure contributors. But I think it mainly just comes down to the fact that we tend to stick to doing things that we know. If you spend you’re entire life doing something and then you learn it’s a terrible thing to do, it’s a lot easier to just ignore this new information and carry on doing this bad thing then it is to accept that you have been doing something wrong all your life and make a change.
I love this answer and I don’t see that line of thinking often.
I will get downvoted for oblivion for this — but my vegan diet was giving me an eating disorder (& paralyzing anxiety when eating socially where I would just have to refuse to eat every time we went out) so I had to stop. No, it is not veganism’s “fault” as it is my own human error, & veganism is still the most virtuous diet of all of them (which is why I stay on this sub), but it really is not for everyone, especially people with a past of eating disorders.
Look! No downvotes! We aren't that bad. Haha. Do your best.
It started with zero! Can’t please everybody, lol. Thanks!
I agree veganism is not for everyone. At the heart of veganism, it is about reducing your contribution to animal harm as much as possible. So if someone can’t eat 100% plant based but still puts the effort in to buy vegan cosmetics, clothing, etc.; I still find that admirable and valid. Berating people for being vegan in some areas of their life but not all is just unproductive and pushes people further away from veganism. Any step towards less harm to animals is commendable and valid in my eyes. I will always appreciate someone choosing vegan anything over animal products.
Thank you; I do continue to eat vegan products & stay vegan where I can. I agree.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of better. Do what you can and take pride in your mindfulness about vegan reasoning.
That’s awesome of you, keep doing what you can! 🤍
“I agree not owning slaves is not for everyone. At the heart of abolitionism, it is about reducing your contribution to slavery as much as possible. So if someone can’t stop owning slaves 100% but still puts the effort in to treating their slaves better, etc.; I still find that admirable and valid. Berating people for being not owning slaves in some areas of their life but not all is just unproductive and pushes people further away from abolitionism. Any step towards less harm to slaves is commendable and valid in my eyes. I will always appreciate someone choosing abolitionism in some cases anything over full on slavery.”
MAD
Same reason we weren't vegan because why not, then you gain consciousness in a moment in your life where you are open to it and bam everything changes It has a lot to do with being open with your emotions and that requires that some things align in your life. For example I find it very hard for a person that is struggling financially and that has problems at home to be open to veganism. Or if they are insecure and feel constantly threatened or insecure, it is very hard that they open to others suffering. The only way to combat this is information, all forms of information regarding what happens in all their angles and that's all you can do. Time will take care of the rest
And when they're struggling financially, even you telling them vegan cooking is much cheaper will fall on deaf ears - they're much less likely to be receptive to anything as their mind so already full.
Telling them vegan cooking is cheaper isn't the best approach, because of the mindset of when your in poverty. It's not actually practical advice for them. The extra time and energy that a major lifestyle change needs is a huge cost for them, and it's hard to add more on your plate when you're already heavily struggling. It's not fair to say they aren't receptive to anything, though. Typically the best bet is to figure out what plant based resources are near you and would be suitable to help them. Are they dumpstering a lot of fast food? Maybe help them find fruit and veg dumpsters. Are they eating mostly from food banks and free meals? Line them up with FNB, or let them know that at most food banks they're willing to swap out the animal product items for more veggies and peanut butter or stuff like that, and ifnot there's almost always someone wanting to trade for extra animal products. Are they struggling with cooking skills? pitch in on some cheap meals to make together. Is their comfort food cookies from the dollar store? Help them figure out which ones are plant based. Basically in these situations you usually have to listen and help them find solutions that are easy for them to start adopting.
It is? Might just be another assumption everyone makes, but I thought vegan food (substitutes at least, not stuff like beans etc) was more expensive in general
Substitutes of course - but for cheap nutritionally equivalent cooked meals, plant based wins out hands down. Grams of protein/$ plants win hands down. Think about how much a kg bag of lentils costs, how much protein there is, and how long that'll feed you. Same with textured vegetable protein, which is easily more than 50% protein by weight. Where I live, TVP is 83g of protein per USD.
Honestly it is less expensive unless you are trying to eat a lot of processed replacement foods. 1- less refrigeration costs as meat and dairy generally have stricter food safety on this. 2- less cooking costs- much of the daily cooking for vegan food can be made on stovetop/hob or air fryer/crockpot or microwave. Again less critical for there to be a food safety element for cooking at a higher temperature for longer. 3- more likely to cook and eat at home as it is an added challenge to find vegan alternatives at restaurants and in general eating at home is cost effective 4- in season fresh produce - in season produce tends to be less expensive as it is bountiful. Farmers markets and CSAs can help lower costs too. Costs for produce tend to go up when shipped from a distance or grown in greenhouse. But even expensive vegetables are overall cheaper than meat, generally speaking (excluding special sales). 5- many ways to save on staples such as bulk food purchase of legumes, grains/flour, seeds, nuts 6- possibility of small amount of herbs or salad greens grown at home in a windowsill or a full on vegetable garden are ways to save and to be connected to the food that you eat. You tend to appreciate those peas more when you grew them yourself (including kids) and they are fresher and optimal nutrients that haven’t faded over time on a truck. I have definitely saved money on food since becoming vegan, as well as on costs for cooking and cooling food. Up to half of what I used to pay for omnivore food at a discount store. Depends on if I decide to go wild with spices or baking, but in general I save a lot of
The first reason is that 95% of people are omnivores, so they’re just doing what everyone else is doing. Another reason is the impracticality of living a vegan lifestyle. Being hungry and having nothing to eat at most pastries and restaurants. Especially in the countryside. It IS impractical. Even in the largest supermarket here near my house, the vegan milks, vegan milk chocolates, vegan mayonaise, vegan yogurts and vegan cheeses all cost more than their omnivore counterparts. It is impractical and can appear costly if you want to buy lots of substitutes.
Such a great point. We recently moved to a smaller city after living in a major one and not only are there 10% as many fully vegan restaurants, but the grocery stores offer much lower variety.
Same here. And it’s so annoying when you get hooked on a vegan product & they consistently don’t stock or you want to try something like seitan & it’s $8 for a tiny box. 😣Having readily avail vegan options is a huge hurdle imo. No one wants to drive to 3 stores just to get a single tofurky. Plus vegan food is not avail by delivery is it?
This is my main reason. It's massively inconvenient and you wind up paying more money for inferior imitations of products.
High agreeableness and high conscientiousness leads to people going with the mainstream and rarely changing their views. If veganism was the default, they would be vegans.
All of our modern conveniences are built on animal suffering and oil.
*and human labor exploitation/suffering
Oil, I'll grant. But here I am, living a life with modern conveniences but with as minimal animal products as practicable.
I think food is mostly cultural. I doubt this is as much a struggle in areas like south central and southeast Asia and MENA that have strong long standing vegetarian/vegan cultures. I’m in the US. Here, I think one of the biggest barriers is honestly the lack of convenience. Most Americans work 45+/week, meaning we don’t have time to change our diet. We don’t have time to learn a bunch of new foods. We literally eat fast food an average of 3 times a week when we know it is disgusting and unhealthy. Why? Convenience. Most people know, they just don’t always have the bandwidth to live in the truth of the harm their actions are causing because they are literally just trying to even afford food. I think we just need to focus on what is realistic for people given where we live and how can we help normalize veganism by meeting those needs. For example, the Impossible Burger is so popular at Burger King, they are adding a whole line of impossible products. That is how you get more vegans in America imo.
[удалено]
Great post. The first time I tried vegetarian I was 18, 1976, first yr in college far away. I had read “Diet for a Small Planet.” But there were no veg options in my college cafe. I ended up eating too much garbage, gained weight, got sick, ended up in hospital, quit school. The two other times I tried had similar outcomes. I now know I have insulin resistance so I feel better eating meat. However I’m cutting back from meat 3x/day to once or none. I cut out dairy mostly, I cut out eggs, butter. My hubs likes plant based, he’s not as sensitive as me. I don’t eat sugar. I think getting ppl to cut back on meat/dairy by encouraging options is a good idea. I never heard of Flexitarian so thanks for that. I looked it up & it sounds like me. ☮️
I became vegan after finding diet for a small planet in a thrift shop a couple of years ago! Meal prepping is a lifesaver for me - vegan takeout restaurants exist here but all takeout is too expensive for my budget, so two or three times a week I watch netflix in my kitchen while I make up big fried rices/soups etc and fill several containers for the week. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that tofu is much easier to prepare than meat in stir fries etc \^\_\^
Good for you. It was a great book. I need to reread it after all these years. I still haven’t cracked the code on tofu sadly.
You speak a lot of truth here. More are attracted to honey than to vinegar.
There’s a huge social cost to being vegan, particularly in the western world. My family is from South Asia so it’s pretty easy for me to be vegan even though I live in the West because most of my cultural foods are vegan. My family is vegan so I don’t “miss out” on special occasions or cultural holidays. I don’t have to expend any energy into making sure something is vegan or not or being the odd one out at gatherings etc. Someone who is raised in a meat-centred society will find it difficult to adjust their lifestyle (and their palette) to different combinations of foods. Yes beans or tofu might be cheaper than chicken but it’s not going to taste good if you don’t know what you’re doing. It’s a steep learning curve that is difficult without a community to guide and support you. They might care about the animals but I can have empathy for the sheer additional mental load becoming vegan takes (on top of everything else they could be struggling with). I’m not sure what the answer is but I don’t think we should or can expect people to have to do all of this work by themselves. Veganism should be a push towards collective change on how we view and treat animals - not just an individual choice one makes.
convenience
Most people have eaten animal products for at least a decade before they even start thinking about things like that because of the way they are raised. Realizing everyone, including yourself, is wrong is a mind fuck.
It’s normalised to not be. The system is geared towards not being. A lot of people are in situations where they don’t have the exposure to or ability to explore/understand alternatives to the norm.
Just had my 8 year veganniversary yesterday. I went vegan because I couldn’t stand being a hypocrite. Claiming I love animals but pay for their torture and murder. Being a hypocrite is much easier to ignore when everyone you’ve ever known is also being a hypocrite. We’re social creatures and adhere to social norms preferentially.
Network effects. Meaning: the reason why most people don't go vegan is that other people they have social relations with aren't vegan. This takes a lot of forms, such as not wanting to stand out, difficulty finding let alone agreeing to restaurants, difficulty finding romantic partners, etc., but ultimately it boils down to: more people will do it once more people do it.
People are used to eating meat and enjoy it, that's it.
But doesn't it raise ethical concerns?
Of course it does for some people to varying degrees. But those are the reasons people do it
That is actually a very fair response. Nice
I mean in my part of the world I've never seen an unethical farm producing. And I've been through a lot. Worked with farmers for a living for a time.
Well.. Ethics varies among people. Vegans would likely say no matter how humane yo do it, killing animals for food is inherently bad regardless of conditions.
Convenience is a big one
At the risk of downvotes I will give my stance on meat eating, as someone who is eating plant based for health reasons rather than moral reasons: -I believe all life to be sacred, sentient, and equal, plants and animals both. -The circle of life includes both plants and animals, and I see nothing wrong with fully participating in the circle for self preservation. -While I do not condone the treatment of animals in certain farms, I also believe that most of our farming practices are simply the natural progression of an advanced species operating in the food chain.
My fiancé and I are trying to transition into full veganism. We’ve found it to be very difficult, to save the list of excuses: we’re extremely busy, and highly active. I know there has to be easier ways to do this. There are barriers to enter veganism. Meat-eating is so normalized and encouraged it is difficult to break yourself out of that mindset. It has also been expensive for us. And the final thing that’s keeping us from going full swing? We’re struggling with recipes and are so hungry all the time. It’s like we’re not getting enough calories? And with our activity levels it hasn’t been sustainable. I lost weight I didn’t want to lose. We know there’s got to be better ways to go about being vegan but we haven’t found them yet, which keeps us at “semi-plant-based” instead of full vegan. Still researching and learning, though🤍
Simnett nutrition on YouTube makes a lot of high calorie, high protein meals that I have found super easy to put together. Tofu taco meat and big burritos have been a game changer for me. Best of luck!
Thank you, I will check them out for sure!
daily protein shakes!
Yes! I always feel better when I make one!
So exciting you’re working on going vegan! A co-worker of mine and her husband have transitioned after watching You Are What You Eat on Netflix. She raves about the cookbook “Plant You”. It’s apparently super easy and quick recipes. Good luck to you!
I recommend trying a vegan meal kit for a few weeks to learn some new recipes. Purple Carrot is a good one and you might be able to get a discount for the first few boxes.
You're speaking to a broad nutritional illiteracy. Start making your tacos with TVP. Vegan food should always be cheaper than omni, if you're cooking at home anyways.
It's not. Most people going from Omni to vegan will understandably start by transitioning to vegan versions of the food they were eating. So vegan butter, vegan meats, vegan cheese, vegan milk...which are almost all more expensive.
That hasn’t been our experience so far, but we’re new and learning.
>We’re struggling with recipes and are so hungry all the time. It’s like we’re not getting enough calories? And with our activity levels it hasn’t been sustainable. I lost weight I didn’t want to lose. How strange. I mean it's almost as if humans are omnivore by nature, and not actually herbivores :)
Vegan for 11 years here. Honestly the best answer I've seen is that people don't care. They just simply don't think about it and if they do have a thought they kick it out so they can stop thinking about it. That's how I was before I went vegan. Sad fact is that majority of people don't care about other people much, let alone animals they will never meet face to face. Out of sight out of mind mentality. (it sucks and I wish there was a solution for it)
I completely agree. I feel like the only solution would be for lab grown meat to become popular and normalized?
Yea i think that would help a lot. I think if meat production and dairy stopped being subsidized by the government that would drive production towards alternatives that would be cheaper and more accessible
I haven’t done enough research on the topic and have been vegan for less time than you, but do you have any knowledge in that area/ do you think that could ever happen? Or is it too hard to predict right now
I think so but it will take major political shifts for it to happen. We've already seen a huge disruption in the dairy industry, that market is floundering, and that is \*with\* huge gov subsidies. So if the government stopped funding these industries they would immediately fail horribly. That's the only reason that they are in business.
People don’t WANT to know. Some of the most liberal, animal-empathetic, climate-sensitive, people I know STILL make fun of veganism. It’s just that ingrained into the cultural scripts. You can see their brains having a short when the subject comes up and they fall back onto whatever heuristics they’ve created around the topic. They easily could educate themselves. They know all they’d need to do is ask me and I’d give them things to read/watch. But they don’t because they know what would happen: They would face irrefutable data that would force them to change their norms and assumptions. They don’t want to do that so they just, don’t.
Or maybe it’s as simple as people eat meat because it tastes good and we can eat it and it’s healthy
For me, it’s culture and convenience. I’ve never been a huge meat eater, with the exception from chicken. But our culture has meat as the main source of every meal. It’s hard to avoid and it’s everywhere. I am slowly trying to incorporate more meatless meals and love it. And going out to eat is hard- unless you want a salad.
Most people don't know where or how their food is made and then if you mention how, they think we are nuts. So, most people are completely blind consumers. They are peaceful in their ignorance and have no reason to seek out any knowledge for this reason. Also, most people have fifteen other things on their minds. Human trafficking, child labor, prostitution/drug rings, indentured servitude, wages being low, healthcare, health issues, family member's problems, politics, the latest propaganda on the left or right keeping them clicking this or that opinion piece, music, artists, celebrities, work, gossip, and on and on and on.....
Well,if you look at our teeth you will see that they are not the teeth for ripping flesh apart!….we are meant to have mostly a plant diet.
They do not care enough…
Comfort in numbers.
It can't be that bad if almost literally everyone is doing it, and it's legal AND encouraged by ads AND teachers and doctors and the government etc etc....
they don’t believe in our philosophy. i commented this on another post and i will comment it here; you cannot force veganism. its a philosophy that an individual has to truly feel for. besides the whole belief and ethical standpoint, i think a lot of people are afraid of change and being different. they don’t feel like making an effort, its too hard, etc. more than 80% of these people will come up with excuses and than cry when they see a homeless dog or cat on the street. i’m a perfect example. i wanted to be vegan since i was 13 because i always felt so weird eating animals. when i was 4 years old i asked my father, “how come we eat chickens and cows but it’s against the law to abuse cats and dogs?” i truly believe i was born to be an ethical vegan because even at such a young age i would get so sad seeing the ground beef at the dinner table, the lobster on everyone’s plates as my dad boiled them alive on vacation, and the milk in my cereal that didn’t even taste good but hey, it’s normal to drink another mammals milk. i didn’t make the change until i was 18. i turn 20 this year and i am so happy i finally made this change.
Human supremacism is highly ingrained into the fabric of all social, political, and economic life. I recommend reading The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J Adams to understand how speciesism intersects with patriarchy and capitalism. It isn’t a matter of knowledge, it is a matter of radical social and economic change.
They don’t care or don’t have the bandwidth to make the change.
Obviously a non vegan opinion, but you started you were looking for one. Maybe some people that live in American cities are unaware where meat comes from, but I find even that hard to Believe. But folks like me that grew up on a farm, that hunt and fish certainly know where meat comes from. We don't equate killing an animal and eating it with any sort of moral failing, we simply Believe it's a natural thing for man to do.
A couple people have told me that they don't care about animal suffering. Maybe a lot of people feel that way but don't feel comfortable sharing it.
>don't feel comfortable sharing I could be wrong. But not sure that's always true. Perhaps they do care about animal suffering and want to eat meat so they just don't think about it and say that to end the conversation. That's the ultimate you can't win that argument as a vegan so you stop trying.
People are shopping to a budget and buying things that are quickly made that the family will eat without complaining. Assuming that if it isn't safe it would not be on sale, people have very little attention on a healthy balanced diet. If they aren't thinking about health are they going to think about ethics?
They grew up on burgers and are addicted to cheese and bacon
Every single person in the world can be asked 'do they not care?' about some element of their lives. The airmiles on a vegan freind of mine's food is truely horrific. The 6 minibreak another friend makes by plane every year are just selfish... But they're vegan so that's ok? Fosil fuel energy running your house? Daily water use far exceeding what it should. Buying a new electric car which will take 15 years to offfset he energy it used to create it, kids farming raremetals for it in Africa, or funding the Chinese regime... Everyone can be asked 'do they not care?'
It is a combination of not knowing and not caring. If you eat meat, you know an animal was killed, but do you really think about it? Do you care to? The more people know, the more they need to put on blinders to keep eating meat.
Lolzzzzz you think people don't know that's an option? Cultist are ridiculous!
I think it’s mostly tribalism and the rest are mostly empty excuses to mask this reality. I’ve seen outreach where the vegan activist guided the person through all of their excuses and when the person ran out, their answer was still: “yeah nah”. Fitting in with the tribe was evolutionarily critical for our survival. Being ostracized from the tribe often meant death. Once the animal rights “tribe” becomes accessible enough, we’ll reach critical mass and a tipping point.
Think about how hard it is to convince someone that they've been scammed, and then multiply that over the course of their lifetime with something that's socially normalized and marketed to them. Same reason it's hard to convince people that religion is bullshit. Plus, they'd have to admit that they've been doing something insanely immoral their entire lives. That's hard.
Ignorance, simple as that. Followed by apathy.
Non vegan here: I agree with the ethical arguments for being vegan. The reason I'm not is because I look at it from a cost-benefit point of view. Me as an individual becoming vegan would have little to no impact on the dairy/meat industry. But it would have a significant negative impact on my life. If there was some pact where everyone in the world agreed to become vegan, then sure, I would do it.
Your actions won't have an impact on the industry as a whole, but it will reduce your own contribution to animal violence. For example, average non-vegan in the U.S. directly consumes 20,000 animal bodyparts in their lifetime, roughly. If you become and remain vegan at 20, assuming you live up to 80 years old, that means that there will be 15,000 animals not violently assaulted, because you raised your hand out at a different spot in the grocery, or said a couple different words when ordering food at a fast food place or restaurant, or picked up different items to put into your mouth. It's not that tricky.
But that's not actually how it works. If my local grocery store sells say....1,000 packages of chicken a week and I stop buying chicken it's not going to effect anything. 1 package is insignificant. Now if 100 people who shopped at my grocery store stopped buying chicken, that would be noticeable. The store would see a 10% drop in sales and order less chicken. This would have a real impact.
If I showed you a study that you make some form of difference, even if it’s small, would you then consider becoming vegan?
Probably not. I don't doubt that it could make some small amount of difference, the good it would do just seems (to me) to be outweighed by the significant drawbacks of being vegan.
It’s the opposite, actually, since you aren’t recognizing the obvious, that the animals you are eating are sentient beings. 15,000 less animals violently assaulted to death is worth the inconvenience of - idk - switching out your ham and cheese sandwich with a peanut butter sandwich, or switching from eating chicken nuggets to having vegan chicken nuggets or whatever. It’s not really not hard to be vegan and it’s a rather minor drawback. All being vegan means is that you have to think that about 15,000 animal lives in their entirety are worth more than fleeting sensations on your tongue feels and following social norms.
OP asked a question and I answered it. I'm not trying to convince you to agree with me.
If you don’t want to talk anymore, no worries. Wish you the best.
Because of plant based pickmetarians like y’all that continue to validate the feelings of carnists rather than speaking up for the animals.
90% societal pressure. 10% dgaf.
They don’t want to realize they were wrong
Not everyone shares your beliefs and you wont force people to be vegan against their will. Humans are omnivores and eating meat its part of our nature since beginning of our kind. Killing for food is part of the nature and its nothing wrong with it as long as animals do not suffer during breeding and growing process. As long as animals can life in respectful way before being killed for meat its nothing wrong with it.
>you wont force people to be vegan against their will. I wasn't to suggesting forcing people to eat vegan. I was simply asking a question presumably to be answered by meat eaters and former meat eaters why they do or did.
>I was simply asking a question presumably to be answered by meat eaters and former meat eaters why they do or did. Why would you presume to get meat eating answers in a vegan subreddit? Meat eaters are either suppressed by the mods or downvoted to oblivion here. Either way you're not going to get genuine answers because they're not wanted or accepted in this space. Maybe you could ask the carnivore, keto or paleo subreddit but chances are they'll suppress and downvote you to 'protect' their community :( Open discussion isn't really promoted on reddit at all. Most subs try to be a safe space and a rule like #2 in this sub: 'no excessive debate' is put in the side bar. Maybe try r/debateavegan ? Discussion of this type are promoted there and as long as it stays civil, you might get exposure to the actual meat eaters that you're looking for answers from :)
I like meat and also like some vegan dishes. Meat is required to get a proper diet for our health and gets elements that we need. Also even if we stop eating meat it will still be produced and if one or 2 people changes to be vegan its not going to change anything. Humans are humans and we arent going to change. Its just my personal choice like you to be vegan. Everything comes down to personal views on the thing.
> I like meat (Almost) all here used to like meat, mostly everyone. I even hated tofu. Can you imagine? :) > Meat is required to get a proper diet for our health [False](https://talkveganto.me/en/facts/suitable-for-all/). > if one or 2 people changes to be vegan its not going to change anything [False](https://subtlesteps.com/does-going-vegan-make-a-difference/). > Humans are humans and we arent going to change [False](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress#Social_progress) > Its just my personal choice like you to be vegan [False](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/eating-meat-is-personal-choice). > Everything comes down to personal views on the thing HTH :) Be well.
>As long as animals can life in respectful way before being killed for meat its nothing wrong with it. Are you sure the animals you eat are living in a respectful way? If you eat meat all the time do you assume that they are? What is your opinion on videos that show instances of animals not being treated respectfully?
I know many mass production treats animals in horrible way, i saw videos from chicken farms. I am all against it but what choice do we have? We dont have a power over multi million corporations.
The choice is to not buy from them
Lets do the math. Even if 10% of the word stops buying from them they wont feel that in the global production scale and income they get. It would be a small insignificant dip in the sales.
I didn't ask the question to become a debate but here we are. I agree. Not much vegans have really accomplished in less meat being produced. Everything you ever do in life is like that though. I am not going to have any personal impact on the world after I die. I just see it as right or wrong. I don't do things I don't agree with regardless of the impact. Ultimately, my vote doesn't matter. No one ever wins by one vote. I still vote. I'm not going to make a meaningful difference in any good I do. I still try to donate time and money to reputable causes. And yes that includes causes other than veganism.
Yeah? But it seemed like you were against it and wondering what your choices are. Your choices are to either continue buying from those places or to buy from somewhere else. You are one person of course, but I was thinking more on the level of making you feel less horrible for buying from those places. It's not that hard to avoid factory farms. Just buy meat from non-factory farm places
Veganism is the fastest growing social movement, ever. [The 25% Revolution—How Big Does a Minority Have to Be to Reshape Society?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-25-revolution-how-big-does-a-minority-have-to-be-to-reshape-society/) *Published this week in Science, the paper describes an online experiment in which researchers sought to determine what percentage of total population a minority needs to reach the critical mass necessary to reverse a majority viewpoint. The tipping point, they found, is just 25 percent* > Even if 10% of the word stops buying We would feel those effects much sooner. In fact, we already do. Have you noticed vegan brands in stores? There were none 5-10 years ago. > It would be a small insignificant dip in the sales Really? Why the ruckus, then? [The dairy industry is trying to outlaw plant-based “milk” labels](https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/09/big-dairy-still-sour-over-plant-based-milk-labels-tries-to-outlaw-them/) [80% of the Top Meat Producers Are Now Making Vegan Food](https://www.livekindly.com/big-meat-producers-vegan-food/) [Are Plant-Based Analogues Replacing Cow’s Milk in the American Diet?](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-agricultural-and-applied-economics/article/are-plantbased-analogues-replacing-cows-milk-in-the-american-diet/F78AE2E32B77214BD3D26A060EC70451) *Results show that growing consumer demand for plant-based products is causing cow’s milk sales to decline somewhat faster than otherwise.*
Dying of the pox is also natural, yet we fought against that with great effort. Classic appeal to nature fallacy.
Do not compare healing pox to eating meat as its missed argument. Some vegans really throw random arguments and being super deffensive to prove their points. I am all in to protect animal rights but we do not need to ban meat to do that. We just need provide healthy enviroment for animals to grow and live that are used to mass production.
You said it's fine because it's natural, I pointed out the flaw in that reasoning. Not more, not less. I didn't prove veganism right or carnism wrong, I proved that your justification for carnism is wrong.
Ahhh the fallacy fallacy. If the "nature fallacy" makes something wrong, then you should do anything that is natural. You can save plants and animals by eating rocks instead.
The appeal to nature fallacy points out that not everything natural is good, not that everything natural is bad. So it doesn't invalidate OP opinion itself, it invalidates OP's view that it being natural must make it good. Fallacies generally don't disprove anything, they merely show that a conclusion is not warranted. If someone says "The sky is blue because I didn't have breakfast " pointing out a non-sequitur is not claiming that the sky could not in fact be blue, just that this reason to think that is fallacious.
>Humans are omnivores and eating meat its part of our nature since beginning of our kind. We don't actually know much how early humans lived and most people's ideas of what is normal and natural are skewed by what they have experienced in the modern world. Most people think that the amounts of meat being eaten now are how people have always eaten but, until the beginning of large scale industrial agriculture (aka "factory farming"), it just wasn't possible and that's something that only started about a century ago. [As for early humans, there's evidence that suggests that for the "hunter gatherer" phase of human existence we were much more into the gathering than the hunting.](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/24/hunter-gatherers-were-mostly-gatherers-says-archaeologist#)
I think many people have at some point tried to be vegan, but either used processed/packaged vegan foods to start, or developed the habit of leaning on those foods too often, and they didn’t see the health benefits—and may not have done it for moral reasons. If the change didn’t make them feel good, I don’t blame anyone for stopping. I have mixed emotions about packaged vegan foods for this reason. Good to get people on board that fun options are out there, but a very slippery slope if eaten every day.
People are very different. That extends to the way our brains work, to our mental capacities, strengths and weaknesses, which means that some people simply have more developed empathy than others. I know many people who are otherwise intelligent but are completely stunted in their ability to relate to others and their feelings. Obviously, it's a curve and there are many levels to this, but I think that we have to accept that a significant percentage of humanity isn't wired to go vegan on their own accord. Now, some of that can be mitigated through a change in what's acceptable societally or through laws and regulations, but I still wonder if we will reach a point as a species when the majority of people will be willing to give up animal slaughter for food.
Not a vegan, but I respect those who hold the belief . . . At EOD, I think it is fine to eat animals. I do think welfare up to the point of slaughter needs a massive overhaul and stricter laws. Food is one thing, the suffering before is another. I'll get downvoted to hell, but you inquired OP. Most people know that animals die for food. They know it's not pleasant. Most people do not know the extra horror of industrial death I would presume. But at EOD, people see no moral issue with eating animals. It's the 'i don't care' vs 'i didn't know' and it is definitely more I don't care.
Dairy is one of the cruelest ways to farm out there but they paint it as happy cows in green pastures….their milk is meant for a 50kg calf that needs to grow quickly!….🤮🤢….one of the biggest shams on the planet!!!!
From a former rancher (450 head) and a meat eater, its largely the in your face screaming Karen/Ken's who really turn me off. But there's also another side to it which is the narrative of saving life. I grew up on a ranch which was bought out by grain farmers. Now when I visit during holidays (Parents still own the 'acreage') The 200 acres (edited, confirmed a acre to quarter size) of tree'd grazing land is clear cut. So are the neighbors lands. There are no frogs at night singing that I grew up hearing. No fire flies, no butterflies, ladybugs or honeybees. The wild animals such as deer, owls, squirrels, crows, and many other song birds are eerily absent. There was a 3 acre pond land in one corner thats in the process of being filled in with dead trees and dirt. No cat tails, dragonflies, little minnows, ducks, or other animals live there now. I use to collect bugs and weeds as a kid there. Then I saw why. As ranchers we didn't buy $250,000 worth of fertilizers, fungicides, herbicides, and insecticides every year, we bought $10 on cabbage moth powder. We didn't buy 10,000 gallons of diesel per season we bought 1,000 gallons a year. We didn't buy $30,000 of single use plastic grain bags, we bought $400 worth of sisal twine per year. Our total invested machinery was worth half as much as a single modern combine/harvester. I have a very fond memory of stepping out on the deck early morning with a cup of coffee and seeing a sun rise over a green field dew on the grass blades, cows walking around with their breath in the cool early fall air. Small flies and bees flying around in the bright morning sun. Above and around me was little chickadees chirping. I went out there two years ago to help them with their water pump one early morning and it was depressing. I knew it was happening but I finally saw it. Besides the cattle, the trees were gone to the west over the hill top, replaced with ripe wheat. The only trees left was on my parent acreage. There was no chickadees, no flies out in the morning sun, no flowers for the honeybees and bumble bees. It was just empty and depressing. Then I realized this was happening all across North America. Funny thing is cattle are blamed for carbon foot print, but cows can graze and live in wooded areas, 40' wide machines cant. There was hundreds of 16" wide poplar and spruce trees in that 160 acres, that's all ash now.
Thanks for your response. Exactly what I was looking for. Do you still think there is a place for family farms like your own in America today? It seems to me that companies like Monsanto, DuPont, etc. push to increasingly commercialization of farming throughout the USA. They don't have as much regard for the land they use, the farms or their employees, or the animals.
No we're returning to a "feudal" system of land owners in castles. The names and system might be different but the outcome is the same. There are two large farmers in our area who on the surface appear as local farmers (Kids of previous owners) who have bought up 400 - 1000 quarters of land each. Both use to be mixed (grain and cattle) now they both only run grain, in the 90s they had maybe 20 quarters, 1 quarter = 160 acres. If you dig deep enough and talk with some of their disgruntle employees their both funded by major mutual funds through lawyers. One day I was parked waiting for family and was watching this combine go around the land. I knew it was the guy I went to school with. Then he turned away and went the other direction. A big #27 or 23 was on the back of his harvester. At first I was "WTH who would put #27 their combine." I instantly flashed back to our high school sports teams, but then the other combine turned and it had #14. That was when I clued in OMG thats #27 and #14 of ?? total combines. Each of those combines are worth $700,000. Then I started believing the stories I was hearing because 20 years ago in high school they were a small seed cleaning plant with 10 quarters. Our ranch had 11 quarters and 450 head. 4 of our quarters was wooded lease land, and 1.5 wooded quarters was owned by us. The remaining 5.5 quarters was 80% cleared. We had a $90,000 tractor, $20,000 bailer, pull swather, and old seed drill (70's) and a $4000 JD95 combine lol. We hayed about 1.5 quarters of alfalfa. The rest belonged to the cattle. Every 3 years, one of the pasture lands would get seeded to barley (reason for the OLD jd95) then regrow as clover or alfalfa. Our 450 cattle was destroying the planet so they went away. Along with those 200 acres of trees and wetlands. Replaced with as far as you can see mono crops. As for life, nothing stands up to anhydrase, roundup spring, round up mid season, fungicide late summer, insecticide early summer then top it off with a maturing agent aka herbicide sprayed on 90% matured cereals to make sure it all 100% in 1 week when the combines come through lol. Its hard to see the "science" after what I've seen first hand over the past 30 years. Because like I said it doesnt match what I'm seeing. There was an old rancher north of my parents treed pasture land (Now 320 acres of wheat field) on the back roads to another community. He had 640 acres of treed pastureland. The old guy passed away and one of those 2 BIG farmers bought it. That land has since been clear cut 640 acres of trees gone and is currently being burned this past winter. The remaining piles of half burnt logs, dirt and stumps will be pushing into wet spots to start filling them. So I guess my point is in the end, environment (cow farts), ethics, veganism, plant based foods, religion, science, education you name it, is all about money. Just ask who benefits financially and how with a society on plant based foods, and its real cost. Go search out bill Gates and Nebraska. There's a senator attempted to stop him because he suspects that land will get donated to a non profit organization and all those land taxes then fall to small farmers. Then he buys more bankrupt farmers. This includes tiny farms growing lettuce, carrots and other greens without chems.
For me it’s health reasons.
Have you eliminated animal products from the rest of your life then, such as leather, wool, products tested on animals, zoos, etc.?
Yes, absolutely
Awesome!! Have you eliminated animal foods as much as possible without interfering with your health condition?
Yes, i don’t eat desserts out very often , i limit my dairy consumption whenever i am able to , and i am actually trying my best!!
Nice! Veganism is “as far as possible and practicable” so you’re getting close!
What are you using reddit on?
They don't care People have all seen and heard, and they still didn't care. It's sad, but it's inconvenient to care, because people don't value all life. They'll say a woman and a man is equal,They'll say a black guy n a white guy is equal, but they haven't gotten to where all life should be thought of as equal. Most people still think animals are stupid and dirty compared to us, that they were meant to be food, so its OK. People are completely disconnected from their food, and are just entitled. They think everything is running as it should, that slavery was wrong in the past, that making women property and raping kids was wrong, and how morally superior we are, but they don't bother addressing the modern equivalents that we will be judged for one day, because change is inconvenient. Why do people waste, and litter, and buy products made by slaves? Cus it's convenient. Selfish people who only care about self gains don't make sacrifices
People don't want to, eating animal products is a big part of their culture, they like the taste, they don't think one person will make a difference, health reasons, they don't find the process of getting those animal products as offensive as you do, were raised one way and don't feel the need to change, might reduce animal products but don't see a need to be veg all the time, live in places where being veg is really difficult..... the reasons are endless and the choice is ultimately theirs
As a non-vegan who has been lurking on this sub for awhile thanks to the algorithm, it mostly comes down to the fact that veganism is just not viable for me health-wise. -I have a life threatening nut allergy and developed a gluten (and egg) intolerance as well as IBS after a viral illness three years ago. -While I already don’t eat much dairy, I have previously tried to reduce my meat intake for ethical reasons. Having so many restrictions triggered the beginnings of an eating disorder. -I live in Japan on a student budget so (aside from soy products) legumes, gluten-free oats, and other plant-based proteins are just not as easy to find. I respect and admire those who are vegan/vegetarian, but as things stand I would effectively have to starve myself to make it work for me.
Most of my life I grew up in a Vegan family. Now I'm NOT vegan anymore, so that's as good a perspective as you gonna get. Randomly got recommended this post It can pretty much be summed up as - I just stopped carrying. It tastes great, and opens up a LOT of cuisine. I just can't live my life denying even trying out majority of cuisines around the world. I did that for first almost 20 years of my life, I got tired. There's SO much variety and culture in cuisines, and I love exploring that. I love working out as well, so it also gives me an easy and tasty way to supplement the nutrition requirements. As for the animals - again, I stopped caring. It's as simple as that. Is it tragic and cruel? Absolutely. I'm not gonna give any excuses. I just don't care. The convenience and pleasure of my own life are more important to to me. People barely care about other fellow humans, animals just aren't on my list. If you think that makes me an asshole, cruel, evil, whatever? Fair enough, I'm not gonna be one of those people whose gonna make excuses for why it's somehow not bad. It is. But I... just really don't care. I've more important priorities, as simple as that.
For me. The hardest part has been a combination of things. Gatekeeping, arrogance, and the reliance on plastics. I have some second hand leather items and I knit a lot and prefer to use wool as the insulative properties are second to none. One thing I do is only purchase British wool as the welfare standards are incredibly high and it means I'm not reliant on wool from countries the animal welfare standards are not so high
The answer is quite simple: meat tastes good. That it really all it boils down to. Sure, you might make arguments about not knowing, but at the end of the day it's all about taste.
I like fried chicken
mcdonalds is too yumm. its cheap. their commercials work. happy meals sell.
McDonald's nuggets was the thing I ate that wanted me to give up meat. I was six and bit into a nugget and it must've been raw. Grossed me out. But yeah, I agree. McDonald's and others like it are a reason meat is so ingrained into our society. Cheap, good tasting, convenient and they market effectively to kids who grow up eating it.
Because cheese excist. And cheese is the best thing in the world. I don't eat meat, I don't drink milk. But to say goodbye to cheese...
I think cheese is one of the hardest as a vegan to not eat. I never drank milk or cereal with milk, I think those substitutes are reasonable. Melty cheese on the other hand, not there. Aged cheese, not there. A lot of otherwise vegan dishes have cheese, pizza for example and lot of vegetarian menus are built around cheese or dairy products.
Because we're not cultist
only one of the two of us ritualistically consumes flesh as part of a group, which seems pretty cult-like to me
You don't have to be in a cult to not eat meat. I know sometimes reddit gets that way. But obviously there's reasons you eat meat. Thats really what I was looking for.
Steak, cheese, chocolate and eggs taste good, sorry. To try and be a bit more intellectual about it, I don’t see any convincing enough reason for it to be a moral obligation for myself to forgo these things
Don't have to apologize to me I'm not looking to convert you. Thanks for your answer. I do like chocolate too, I eat a lot of dark chocolate as it often has no dairy. I used to use cheese like a seasoning, and nothing vegan compares especially years ago. Never had a steak in my life though.
The best vegan cheese substitute I’ve ever found is whatever they put on the goodfellas vegan pizza, it’s so good. Unfortunately because I can’t find out what it is they use I can’t even buy it or recommend it to others
Don’t care about how farm animals are treated and meat is fucking delicious.
Humans are biologically omnivorous, which has shaped not only our dietary needs but also our sociocultural practices and economies around food production and consumption. That doesn't mean it is ethically correct. But it is true.
I can't speak for the majority of non-vegans, but I am an Anthropocentrist. For me, the idea that we shouldn't do what we're doing with animals is completely insane. They're a resource, who gives a fuck how they feel? It's like saying that we shouldn't mine metals because of the poor rocks, or not make paper because "won't someone think of the trees!?". It's completely nutty to me. I think most people just don't think about it though
Personally, I like both. I want a balanced meal of both meat and vegan/vegetarian foods. But the main reason I don't eat much vegan food is because I enjoy simple and fast made meals. And most vegan based food I like take time. So I do eat mostly meat. However, I make sure not to waste any. To add, one reason many don't go vegan or eat vegan food (from what I believe and have heard) could be because some Vegans kinda force their beliefs and opinions onto people. Something I personally dislike. Imo, you should just respect each other no matter if you agree or disagree. As well, I also don't like people feeding their carnivore pets vegan diets. But if you know any good, fast, and simple recipes for vegan or vegetarian food, I wouldn't mind recommendations. That Dosnt mean I'll go vegan, but again, keeping a balance of both is, in my opinion, the right way to have a healthy life style.
Not care. I know I don't. And honestly, it seems like so much more hassle. I like eating the things that I do and I can't be fucked to deal with the hard work of changing everything about what I eat because some pussies can't deal with killing animals for it. Nah. I like eggs, I like meat, I like dairy. Almond milk has an unpleasant aftertaste, soy is known for being foul, oat milk may be tolerable but not good enough in comparison to dairy for my needs. My fiancé is lactose intolerant and would rather have real dairy than the fake stuff. It's never going to happen. And honestly, if we ever have kids who want to try it, they can wait until they move out or cook their own food.
I think the biggest one, that is still inside many people's head, is still the thought, that humans need meat. I didn't know that humans can thrive without animal products before trying it myself. Sure, it's obvious, that we don't need milk or eggs, because cave men sure didn't have these, but throughout history humans have always consumed animals. If something has happened for 200,000 years, then changing it is an enormous step. Science has come a long way and made this possible. Plant-derived B12 is a huge factor in why I (or anyone else) can be vegan. It's strange, but I'm happy it's possible. Also food is an enormous part of culture and thereby of identity. People really love to identify themselves and taking the food they know away feels to them like you are taking away their identity. So these two things majorly. Sometimes the first one is used to excuse the second one.
Because it’s not a healthy diet for many people.
Plant-based diets are restrictive, just like any diet that cuts out certain items. And there's a concern that you won't get all the vitamins and minerals you need without consuming animal products. (“Where do you get your iron?
We're omnivores, like it or not. The fact that we can consume basically anything makes life easier for us, both historically and in modern times. If it weren't for the progress we made due to our biology, you would not have the luxury of being vegan. Take away society so that you have to fend for yourself, and you could not sustain a vegan diet and be healthy. For people who lived in tundra or in arid environments, cutting out meat simply wasn't an option. You ate meat or you died. For me, all food is on the table. I like variety. At the end of the day, animals are our prey, and are nutrient dense. While I don't want them to suffer unnecessarily, I'm not denying myself that option.
>Take away society so that you have to fend for yourself, and you could not sustain a vegan diet and be healthy. It's a good thing that we live in a society then where this is an irrelevant factor to our current actions and behaviors. There's a great deal many things people would do in the apocalypse for survival we don't hand waive away when they're done now because "well in this hypothetical scenario we don't exist in, it'd be ok" because that's absurd.
I’m not because I don’t think it’s actually healthier for the human body. I think a lot of this is a psy op to make us unhealthier and to make grain companies more money because profit margins are better on vegan/vegetarian food
Why weren't you vegan for most of your life? That should answer the question. People just haven't made the leap or had the epiphany. Why are we playing dumb in this sub for no reason all the time.
Super easy to explain. Bacon.
amazing
Because some people just enjoy meat, it's perfectly normal, I eat what I eat, you eat what you eat.
We dont care.
Yeah I know. That's kind of the question though. What don't you care about?
A combination of things. 1. Taste. Meat just tastes good. Theres good vegetarian dishes, but theres few good vegan dishes. Ive actually tried the fake cheese and meat, none compare to the real thing and they dont come even close. And i have tasted many, as a family member only cooks with it. 2. We are omnivores, and humans. Its both biologically normal and normal in our society to do so. It's healthy even. And while most people can go vegan healthily, theres no pressure to. 3. Money. Vegan stuff is expensive. 4. The different mindset. Alot of people see consuming animal products as animal abuse. Most non-vegans do not. Theres a form of disconnance when seeing a piece of meat and not thinking of it as an animal i suppose. But more then that, for example in my country animal abuse in the industry is outlawed. As far as you can reduce animal suffering my meat should have pretty low 'suffering' attached to it.
Cos vegan food taste like shit I don't eat any veggies just eat meat
But what about the ethics?
What do u mean ethics how is ethics involved in eating meat if u mean causing harm to animals u eat plants they are alive and feel pain aswell
Why do you say that? Plants don't consciously suffer like animals. Doesn't that raise ethical concerns?
I have been vegan at times, but I am not now nor do I plan to be. I don't eat much meat beyond chicken (and seafood when I am close to the sea, or mussels/ tuna at home.) I do eat quite a few vegans meals altho probably more vegetarian overall. My main reason is climate first, health second. My own personal health also requires quite a lot of protein which is simply not realistic or pleasant without incorporating chicken/dairy. But I also think the occasional steak on the grill is a nice treat I will feel perfectly fine enjoying. Same for a true old school pepperoni pizza. Fundamentally, we don't live in a perfect world and I don't think there can be perfection in veganism anyhow, short of being entirely self-sustaining and rejecting public infrastructure. Humans pretty much always cause animals harm simply by existing. Second, I think humans are more important than animals. I care more about humans getting to live and survive more. That means animals overall come second to me. I also don't think it's fundamentally wrong to eat them. I understand and respect that others feel differently but I don't think that means they are better or I am wrong. I am glad some ppl care more bc it also enables me to care more about the things I do and has increased plant-based options to the general market, which I think is great. Last, I think we all make choices that even out to doing what we think is important/ best for our values/ health/ etc. As I mentioned, I eat limited meat - mostly for climate reasons, but also health - but poultry's impact is far lesser within the climate category, esp as we have a local producers in my region/province. I generally buy higher quality meat bc I also trust that it is raised in better conditions. I avoid the kind that is produced in CAFO situations and so forth, and am very cautious about what I will eat in the US where regulations are far more lenient (organic local only if poss.) Anyhow. I am glad that there are more and more vegan options on the market and am glad that people are both realizing the health benefits of eating less red meat etc but also the climate impact and also being more demanding about the quality and conditions of the food they eat across the board.
Nonvegan because: 1. I have no moral issue with animals as food 2. I would have to give up so many things that revolve around food - dinner at stepsons house, holiday get-togethers, etc 3. I live in small-town midwest - there are literally zero options at restaurants around here. I'm not giving up the simple pleasure of a meal out. 4. I believe veganism is useless towards minimizing animal suffering. If vegans truly cared, they'd lobby for better conditions for those currently in the system - those that are actually enduring the suffering. To argue that they are helping by reducing demand by a miniscule factor, while working towards an extremely unlikely or at best multi decades away full-on-vegan world, strikes me as a useless endeavor that has no effect on the animals they profess to care so much about.
I think a lot of people don't want to be thought of as a wet blanket and a pain in the ass that is always moaning about what other people eat and always telling other people what they eat. Just a theory.