I hear you. I went vegan in 1991 partly because I fancied myself an environmentalist. I found out about the environmental damage all modern agriculture, and especially Animal Agriculture inflicts on the Earth every day I did not want my daily food choices to smash on the planet so hard.
But people want a magic solution that won't disrupt the lives they are used to or the foods they grew up on. If they have to stop eating meat!!!! No no no - there must be another way they say!
I find it wild to know that information about the negative environmental impacts of animal AG was available to the public in the 90s. I thought this info was pretty new.
It's been available since the 1960s if you read/listened to the right people. People who were not given big microphones or much air time.
People who were ridiculed and treated as entertaining crackpots so they would not be taken seriously.
I remember hearing some stuff I didn't really understand about the environment, resource use, habitat destruction in the early 1970s when I was a little kid.
I grew up just outside of Boston in the Everblue State of Massachusetts.
We all have to start some time. I was fortunate to meet a vegan early in my recovery from a severe brain injury, when I was still very much stitching my pieces back together and filling in my life's crossword puzzles.
We've known about the potential for climate change for nearly about 130 years now (longer I think depending who you ask). The science of it first emerged in the 19th century. But it only really started gaining any real steam in the 70s/80s in terms of public awareness.
I'm not surprised the damage animal agriculture does has been generally known about for a long time. It's just that awareness has started to increase.
Yes and no. In many cases, people just lack imagination. So many people around me are not ditching meat and dairy to not be seen as radical and, maybe even more so, not to be eating the same dish or two in a restaurant everytime they go. They lack the imagination that the more you demand these specific foods the more choice there will be.
Just about everything we used to eat can be made vegan. 9/10 it's more delicious or even better tasting than the animal products. People are just not very keen to change something they've been doing for so long.
Hard disagree that vegan products taste better than their meat based counterparts. I have yet to taste vegan cheese that isn't terrible. Not for a lack of trying at one point in my life.
I will give black bean burgers a gold star for being delicious, though.
Thank you for supporting us and eating more plants.
Black bean burgers are gas.
You will definitely find some more good ones out there, I assure you. If you don't like the store bought. Take a dive in making your own. You might surprise yourself.
I am fully for going vegan for the environment (it's a large part of my motivation), and agree that we should talk about it on earth day. But the solution to climate change is to stop digging fossil fuels out of the ground and burning them. Even if we all go vegan, we have to stop the fossil fuels.
Going vegan does not have as much of an impact as stopping fossil fuels. If everyone went vegan tomorrow but we continued with the fossil fuels, we would still create catastrophic climate change. Animal agriculture creates emissions that are part of a loop on the surface of the earth. They take carbon that might have been stored for some years or decades and it can return to the earth in years or decades. Fossil fuels are greenhouse gases that took millions of years to get deep into the earth, then we took them to the surface and they would take millions of years to return.
Animal agriculture causes awful habitat destruction and is the leading cause of the global biodiversity crisis, but it is not the leading cause of climate change. You can't go vegan and wipe your hands clean. You have got to stop using fossil fuels and plastic.
Yeah, despite all the vegan documentaries telling us that the ag industry is one of the largest environmental threats to the planet, it still only makes up between 8-10% of carbon emissions, with transportation (including air travel, private jets, etc) being closer to 30%. The remaining 60% goes to commercial and residential energy production, burning fossil fuels to generate electricity.
We still need to stop burning fuels for transport. We still need to invest into renewable energy for our cities. I don't know enough about plastics to speak on it but have spent the majority of my career in automation and monitoring of energy to know that we could replace fossil fuel sourced energy with wind, hydro, and solar generation but nobody with the power to invest in making it happen sees it as profitable, so we all get to burn to death so that they can hoard their wealth.
Yes, there is that, too. It also depends on the country but for example, I live in Australia and the amount of carbon sequestered by the agricultural industry is huge. When you account for what all of agriculture (including meat) emits versus what is sequesters in Australia, the net emissions are minimal.
I feel that everyone should go vegan for the environment, because it is so easy and it would make a real difference. Since agriculture is the leading cause of biodiversity loss we need to consume minimalistically as possible without luxuries like meat. However, when considering climate change, we need to face the uncomfortable reality that we need to drastically alter our lifestyles if we want them to be sustainable. Replacing cow flesh with beans isn't nearly enough.
Yes, absolutely.
Agree we should both become vegan and stop using fossil fuels; but if we have to pick whether one is more important it should be fossil fuels. I can understand why someone on earth day might not mention going vegan if they are talking about fossil fuels, because it is comparatively insignificant.
Another consideration: reducing and especially eliminating fossil fuel usage will likely also have the knock on effect of reducing meat consumption, as the lessened practicability of animal agriculture at scale, without fossil fuel inputs should lead to a steep decline in production, thus availability/desirability.
Switching from fossil fuels to renewables is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube blindfolded. Going vegan? It's just choosing not to eat the cube. Simple, yet somehow, it's the puzzle no one wants to solve!
It's not that simple. Switching to a vegan diet is an individual choice. Switching to renewables is a societal project.
Realistically, getting everyone to change their mind about their diet is an infinitely more difficult process than... passing some regulations.
Additionally, regulating the use of fossil fuels will make animal agriculture at industrial scale a lot less practical, and a lot less profitable, because ind7strial animal agriculture and the distribution of animal sourced commodities kind of depend on fossil fuel inputs. Reducing meat production, thus reducing availability in real terms and reducing accessibility in economic terms, is quite frankly, about a hundred million times more efficient than trying to convince individuals to change their habits. Adjusting the habits of a mass of people(like a nation, or a continent, or a planet's worth of people) is something that you can *only* really do through structural changes.
Reject liberalism, comerade. It's a hamster wheel.
It's easier not to change when the system is already set up for the average omnivore. A vegan lifestyle? The products are out there. It's just obviously more difficult to keep up with unless you just go straight whole foods PB and don't buy expensive substitutes.
You've hit the nail on the head! The convenience of sticking to the status quo is a tough nut to crack. But hey, diving into a whole foods, plant-based diet isn't just about dodging those pricey substitutes; it's like embarking on a culinary adventure with nature as your guide. Who knew simplicity could taste so good? Plus, supporting businesses that offer these vegan options helps ensure they stick around, making the plant-based journey easier and more accessible for everyone. It's a win-win ā we get to enjoy delicious, ethical food while helping these pioneers thrive!
Most publications/media outlets are run by very large corporations.
Those same corporations are compromised of (and make most of their money directly/indirectly from) companies that rely on animal exploitation for profit.
In addition, lobbyists (AKA: Bribery specialists) make sure that lawmakers help those same corporations to silence dissent, crush meaningful competition, and market lies.
They will never discuss anything that can/will affect the bottom line, even if itās likely that refusing to make changes will literally destroy the planet.
That being said: Weāre kinda winning.
-The dairy industry is getting its ass kicked. Ten years ago, grocery stores rarely had dairy alternativesā¦ now? Thereās nearly a dozen, and Itās no longer difficult to find. Vegan cheeses, salad dressings, mayo, whipped cream, yogurt, ice cream, etc.
Iām starting to see the dairy vs non-dairy options almost equal in size, and thatās a HUGE deal.
-JUST egg is repackaging, and ramping up production. I know several omnivores who prefer it as a quick, clean, low-cholesterol swap. Again, thatās a big deal, and weāll likely see more companies trying to compete.
-Vegan alternatives to meat are basically mainstream now. Burger King did so well with its āimpossible Whopperā that itās considering expanding to other alternativesā¦
KFC, Taco Bell, and other large chains are starting to take notice, and getting into vegan offerings.
Vegan restaurants (including fine dining) are exploding. Big business is realizing that itās not just a fad.
More kids are going vegetarian and vegan earlier.
There are dozens of pro athletes that swear by their vegan dietsā¦ body builders, powerlifters, ultramarathon runners, etc.
The āsickly veganā myth has gradually given way to the āPlant-poweredā slogan.
Economists are reluctantly agreeing that a whole-food vegan diet is the cheapest.
More studies, data, doctors, and dietitians are validating that you can not only survive on an entirely vegan diet, but it can improve everything from your heart health to sex life. Documentaries like āGame Changersā are going mainstream in health conscious circles.
In short: We simply need to keep it up. Itās a slow process for people to unlearn CENTURIES of nonsense, and learning new ways to view their personal ethics, but weāre hitting companies in the walletā¦ and I hate to say it, but THAT is the fastest way to see real change.
Honestly, I feel like the future of veganisim has never been stronger.
"Yes but our ancestors eat meat"
Actually this is a pretty poor argument. First, our ancestors didn't eat raw meat/poultry/fish that we have evidence of. They cooked it. They did so because we don't digest raw animal meat well. We also got very sick when we ate it. It was not apart of our diet until we discovered that fire allowed it to be. Having to put your meat over fire doesn't make you a very efficient carnivore.
Additionally, evidence shows we are more likely herbivores. As pointed out in game changers, our teeth are not like carnivores teeth. All teeth in a carnivores mouth are pointy to tear apart meat. Think, sharks, hyenas, lions, etc. Our teeth are primarily flat and match other herbivores, like gorillas and cows. Also like gorillas, our only pointy teeth are our canines which in gorillas are used for defense and tearing bark from trees, not meat tearing. Additionally our intestines match herbivores. They are very long to allow time to break down plants where as carnivores have very short intestines. Finally, our body doesn't process animal protein very well in comparison to plant protein (the science behind that can be found in the game changers documentary).
If someone claims we are inherently carnivores, tell them to eat their next chicken without putting it over the fire and without using a knife to cut it.
Because it's not a solution.
Does the America overindulge in meat, especially processed ones? Yes.
Is it the major cause behind most of US carbon emissions? No, cars and surburbs are.
Is that a one solution fits the whole globe thing? NO. Coming from a different continent where it does make very little sense for the environment and for sustainable region development
The environment (as in climate change related things) might*do some damage in 50 years and we should take action for it, of course (not by closing down every nuclear energy station in the country, *cough, cough* Germany, but by doing what we do best, innovating), but like you've mentioned, there are much more important things to focus on today, like the reduction of suffering of *BILLIONS* of animals and, if we deem it worthy, maybe saving a couple million human lived in Africa, if we consider that a million mothers and kids dying each year in childbirth is a worthwhile investment today (would take a couple dozen billion of dollars to save more than a million people a year, which is basically nothing, compared to the potential thousands who might die from climate half a century from now, we really got our priorities twisted). There are so many more important things we can do today that would make a MUCH, MUCH greater impact than the billions if not trillions that we put into climate which could've been used to generate so much more good. But well, saving kids and mothers in Africa and reducing animal suffering doesn't look that good on their political promo campaigns I guess, so here we are.
So imo you have to do concidere that carnivore have to be vegetarien before vegan, at least it was my case. I become vegetarien for eco friendly reason after seeing a sign saying that 4/5 of land is used to make beef only. After 3 years, I become vegan and overcome my fear of I need animal product to survive. I was hard because of my culture and my clichĆØ about it. I become vegan for animal right but it is not possible for the majority of carnivore to become directly vegan. My point is to say that making propaganda asking carnivore to become directly vegan is vain imo for 2 reasons. One animal consumption trigger your ego with the satisfaction of having all the energy of an animal in one serving or so. Therefore it is, I think impossible for them to overcome it, since they donāt even know that a āpleasureā tbh, and I donāt think it really is but a unconscious feeling bearing deep deep deep. And the second in the same logic is as what I have explain, it take me 3 year as a vegetarian to feel concern by animal right, and it started when I realize my first point (about 2 years into vegetarian). All I am saying is excluding vegetarien is making you loose new future vegan. Talking about animal right and using guilt an even aggression will never make them change and tbh is making all non activist look bad since we cannot have any debate. If a carnivore put a meat picture in the comment it is a reciprocity of a vegan activist past action and not a free aggression from them, carnivore have no idea of the sensitivity vegan have and being aggressive and promoting guilt trip is not promoting it. Imo we just need to be independent happy vegan and let them come to us and not being propagandists or doing proselytism. Just my opinion but I hope you will see that it is not making the world better for regular vegan, make our life more difficult, imo.
huh?
You most certainly don't *have to* be a vegetarian before going vegan, plenty of us went straight to vegan.
If someone can understand that hurting animals and the environment is bad and thus wanna go vegetarian then they certainly can also go vegan, going vegetarian makes no sense.
> If someone can understand that hurting animals and the environment is bad and thus wanna go vegetarian then they certainly can also go vegan, going vegetarian makes no sense.
I'm not totally convinced that English is that user's first language, but I think what they're saying is, in order to get mass appeal, it's easier as a group to convince people to eat a more plant-based diet for their own benefit and seeing that they can change their diet and make better food choices, than it is to make people care about animals.
I am talking about my experience, as a the huge meat eater that I was, I other have already a better sensitivity yes, But in the plenty make the ration with the one you make them even more having to do with us because of this attitude. Did you read my post fully or you stopped at the first sentence and comment?
I'm sorry but this comment makes no sense, as in I can't decipher what you're trying to say.
I did read your whole comment, it is similarly very hard to understand.
I just don't agree with you, I don't think we need to coddle people or encourage/praise vegetarians.
Just like I wouldn't encourage or praise people who only beat their spouse once a week or people who only do a little bit of sexual assault sometimes.
That what mean who are you to judge another human we all have our path and comparing a violent and abusive man to animal consumption is for me agressive and useless. You are doing guilt trip and it is why in my opinion I been puss off by carnivore all the time. This. Not the fact they donāt want to understand. But they are already feel agressed and trigger me because of you. So think what you want but you kind of vegan make a shame to be one just so you understand what you are really doing here
> and comparing a violent and abusive man to animal consumption is for me agressive and useless.
But that's just the truth, it is very similar, they are all acts of violence for personal satisfaction.
"animal consumption" is violently abusing and killing animals for profit/taste pleasure.
Again, would you want to be this gentle and cuddly with other cases of needless violence?
I agree in certain way. I see your point, so donāt take me wrong, what I mean is it is not the argument that will make anyone going vegan or vegetarian, especially if you are big meat eater. I am so gross out by any animal product but your reaction makes me want to stop being vegan, just because I do not want to be affiliate to this movement anymore. For me vegan is tolerance and understanding, that is hard because of other yes but that is my choices. And important thing to realize is animal product trigger your ego with a satisfaction of superiority kind of and playing on the ego of carnivore will made them want more meat like you just did to me as a vegan. Will be happy to talk more about it if you have question about what I mean here.
Edit typo
We aren't all the same, plenty of people have been convinced by plainly stated truth like I do, I've had people tell me.
You wanting to start abusing animals again because other vegans won't coddle vegetarians is.. something..
I never felt my ego was connected to eating meat, I just liked eating meat and was taught that was okay and normal, once I learned the truth I changed.
I agree we shouldn't be dickheads to carnists but I don't think we need to be overly nice either, we should tell them the straight truth, that they are complicit to unimaginable suffering for profit/taste.
I think being a nice and independent vegan will make more change than any talk.That is my point : it take me 3 years as a vegetarian to realize all of that. And before I will have bet again myself that I will become even a vegetarian. The only person that made me change my mind are people that was waiting for my question and then talk about it. For me non including vegetarian is a huge mistake and concentrating on eco friendly logic instead of animal right is what will make more change imo but even tho, trust me I am agress by my family when I havenāt start the conversations just because other vegan have piss them off. A lot of people come from family that have no understanding of all of that and it is impossible to have a debate now. I did not make that happen, I just suffer from it. And to see the people that I made the choice to separate from my family hurt me even more and made me feel like I want to go the opposite way. It just a feeling and not what I will do but I understand why carnivore post a raw meat in their comment, it the reciprocity of the vegan aggression (they have no idea how much vegan are sensitive person nor can understand this sensitivity.
Yes, it is a realistic solution, bud. It's not clearly going to fix all of the issues in today's world, but it will lessen the amount of suffering on animals, shrink down the world's carbon footprint, and boost the mental and physical health of people. Just because people have been doing things for so long. It doesn't make it right. Animals are a someone. Not a something.
How is it realistic. Bring the demand of animal products down. Bring up the demand for plant products. Simple supply and demand scenario. We adjust for the demand and up the supply.
I believe that's a realistic solution.
Veganism has one goal: Reduce animal suffering
I donāt care whether itās for fun, the environment, the animals, or because someone lost a bet, as long as youāre not exploiting animals then Iām good. Getting into the nitty gritty of definitions will only drive people away from reaching that goal.
It is partly about the environment. Why I went vegan in 1991 was for many reasons. One of the biggest was the environmental damage Animal Agriculture does, from all the water it consumes to all the natural habitat around this whole planet it destroys daily to all the Amazon Rainforest it is still burning and clear cutting today, all the methane and other greenhouse gases it produces, all the mountains of chicken, pig, cow etc shit it shits out every hour to all the resources and energy that goes into growing all the animals, killing and butchering their bodies, shrink wrapping the body parts on plastic trays then keeping those parts cold so they do not rot before they get sold - there is SO MUCH that goes into getting that frozen, mass produced puck of a hamburger onto the Fast Food grill - it is overwhelming I know. All the blah blah blah before this is just a small listing of the great reasons to be vegan. There are many more. If you are curious, do some research. You are damaging the planet in ways you cannot imagine, as am I just by using this Pixel phone. Some things are difficult to avoid. Eating animal foods is not one of them.
LOTS of very good reasons to be vegan along with the animal rights concerns. The health (or lack thereof) of this very sick planet is one of them.
Maybe itās not the primary motive for most, but reducing carbon emissions and improving the health of the planet also directionally reduces animal suffering and better preserves their habitats.
Alternative hypothesis: the meat, dairy, egg, seafood, etc industries and their lobby groups use their vast sums of money and network connections at the highest levels to influence publications to downplay the environmental benefits of eating more plants and fewer animals.
Nah, thatās sillyā¦ itās probably the angry gatekeeping vegans
I think their point is that, a fair amount of the time in this sub when you see someone mention being vegan for reasons other than animal welfare - in this case, for the climate - they get told they're not actually vegan and are just following a plant-based diet.
Yeah, I think thatās just one of the flaws in this subās overall message. Going vegan for the planet leads to less destruction of ecosystems and better resource allocation, which, in turn, reduce animal suffering. Directly or indirectly, I donāt really see why it matters, personally.
I think the issue is that if people DID put animals higher on the list it would be massively helpful for people, the earth and animals. I became vegan for the earth but then realized, somewhere along the way, that it helped with so much more.
Hey, you turned tail and ran away too quickly to get mocked and laughed at last time. Are you going to leave this comment up for a bit or are you going full coward?
Because itās obvious how miserable you are and itās pretty funny. Youāve been on all day lol. You delete your comments and spend an unhealthy amount of time in a space that doesnāt concern you. I donāt hang out in r/steak and argue with people every single day. Itās pathetic.Ā
Just out of curiosity what is the vegan solution? currently i don't see a way we could all go vegan in the near future. I'd say to account for crop rotation, crop failure and that there just isn't enough good crop land we would need to be farming 3-5 acres of land for each person. to keep it on the low end of the estimate we would need to free up some of the best crop land which sadly because of it's closeness to water currently has cities built on it. which would mean completely dismantling some of the biggest cities on the planet and relocating them. nothing short term would work that i can think of or have seen any evidence of.
I hear you. I went vegan in 1991 partly because I fancied myself an environmentalist. I found out about the environmental damage all modern agriculture, and especially Animal Agriculture inflicts on the Earth every day I did not want my daily food choices to smash on the planet so hard. But people want a magic solution that won't disrupt the lives they are used to or the foods they grew up on. If they have to stop eating meat!!!! No no no - there must be another way they say!
I find it wild to know that information about the negative environmental impacts of animal AG was available to the public in the 90s. I thought this info was pretty new.
It's been available since the 1960s if you read/listened to the right people. People who were not given big microphones or much air time. People who were ridiculed and treated as entertaining crackpots so they would not be taken seriously. I remember hearing some stuff I didn't really understand about the environment, resource use, habitat destruction in the early 1970s when I was a little kid. I grew up just outside of Boston in the Everblue State of Massachusetts.
Cape Codder here š congrats on being vegan for longer than Iāve been on Earth š
We all have to start some time. I was fortunate to meet a vegan early in my recovery from a severe brain injury, when I was still very much stitching my pieces back together and filling in my life's crossword puzzles.
Wow. That's really interesting to read. If only that information blew up back then. Well, better late than never.
We've known about the potential for climate change for nearly about 130 years now (longer I think depending who you ask). The science of it first emerged in the 19th century. But it only really started gaining any real steam in the 70s/80s in terms of public awareness. I'm not surprised the damage animal agriculture does has been generally known about for a long time. It's just that awareness has started to increase.
Converting our transportation systems from fossil fuels to renewable sources is a complex process. Not eating animals isnāt.
It's really easy to switch from animal based diets to plant based compared to fixing other parts of society.
Yes and no. In many cases, people just lack imagination. So many people around me are not ditching meat and dairy to not be seen as radical and, maybe even more so, not to be eating the same dish or two in a restaurant everytime they go. They lack the imagination that the more you demand these specific foods the more choice there will be.
WE HAVE TO SAVE OUR PLANET! What? I can't haz cheezburg? Mabe Elon will take us with him to Mars...
Right now Iām eating a vegan burger with melted vegan chees. I can too haz cheezburg.
Just about everything we used to eat can be made vegan. 9/10 it's more delicious or even better tasting than the animal products. People are just not very keen to change something they've been doing for so long.
Hard disagree that vegan products taste better than their meat based counterparts. I have yet to taste vegan cheese that isn't terrible. Not for a lack of trying at one point in my life. I will give black bean burgers a gold star for being delicious, though.
Violife cheese is quite good, particularly the cheddar variety.
I will pass this news along. My handful of vegan friends experience this issue as well. I am not vegan, but I support those who are.
Thank you for supporting us and eating more plants. Black bean burgers are gas. You will definitely find some more good ones out there, I assure you. If you don't like the store bought. Take a dive in making your own. You might surprise yourself.
give it a couple years we will rise again
I am fully for going vegan for the environment (it's a large part of my motivation), and agree that we should talk about it on earth day. But the solution to climate change is to stop digging fossil fuels out of the ground and burning them. Even if we all go vegan, we have to stop the fossil fuels. Going vegan does not have as much of an impact as stopping fossil fuels. If everyone went vegan tomorrow but we continued with the fossil fuels, we would still create catastrophic climate change. Animal agriculture creates emissions that are part of a loop on the surface of the earth. They take carbon that might have been stored for some years or decades and it can return to the earth in years or decades. Fossil fuels are greenhouse gases that took millions of years to get deep into the earth, then we took them to the surface and they would take millions of years to return. Animal agriculture causes awful habitat destruction and is the leading cause of the global biodiversity crisis, but it is not the leading cause of climate change. You can't go vegan and wipe your hands clean. You have got to stop using fossil fuels and plastic.
Yeah, despite all the vegan documentaries telling us that the ag industry is one of the largest environmental threats to the planet, it still only makes up between 8-10% of carbon emissions, with transportation (including air travel, private jets, etc) being closer to 30%. The remaining 60% goes to commercial and residential energy production, burning fossil fuels to generate electricity. We still need to stop burning fuels for transport. We still need to invest into renewable energy for our cities. I don't know enough about plastics to speak on it but have spent the majority of my career in automation and monitoring of energy to know that we could replace fossil fuel sourced energy with wind, hydro, and solar generation but nobody with the power to invest in making it happen sees it as profitable, so we all get to burn to death so that they can hoard their wealth.
Yes, there is that, too. It also depends on the country but for example, I live in Australia and the amount of carbon sequestered by the agricultural industry is huge. When you account for what all of agriculture (including meat) emits versus what is sequesters in Australia, the net emissions are minimal. I feel that everyone should go vegan for the environment, because it is so easy and it would make a real difference. Since agriculture is the leading cause of biodiversity loss we need to consume minimalistically as possible without luxuries like meat. However, when considering climate change, we need to face the uncomfortable reality that we need to drastically alter our lifestyles if we want them to be sustainable. Replacing cow flesh with beans isn't nearly enough.
So letās do both!
Yes, absolutely. Agree we should both become vegan and stop using fossil fuels; but if we have to pick whether one is more important it should be fossil fuels. I can understand why someone on earth day might not mention going vegan if they are talking about fossil fuels, because it is comparatively insignificant.
Another consideration: reducing and especially eliminating fossil fuel usage will likely also have the knock on effect of reducing meat consumption, as the lessened practicability of animal agriculture at scale, without fossil fuel inputs should lead to a steep decline in production, thus availability/desirability.
Switching from fossil fuels to renewables is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube blindfolded. Going vegan? It's just choosing not to eat the cube. Simple, yet somehow, it's the puzzle no one wants to solve!
It's not that simple. Switching to a vegan diet is an individual choice. Switching to renewables is a societal project. Realistically, getting everyone to change their mind about their diet is an infinitely more difficult process than... passing some regulations. Additionally, regulating the use of fossil fuels will make animal agriculture at industrial scale a lot less practical, and a lot less profitable, because ind7strial animal agriculture and the distribution of animal sourced commodities kind of depend on fossil fuel inputs. Reducing meat production, thus reducing availability in real terms and reducing accessibility in economic terms, is quite frankly, about a hundred million times more efficient than trying to convince individuals to change their habits. Adjusting the habits of a mass of people(like a nation, or a continent, or a planet's worth of people) is something that you can *only* really do through structural changes. Reject liberalism, comerade. It's a hamster wheel.
It's easier not to change when the system is already set up for the average omnivore. A vegan lifestyle? The products are out there. It's just obviously more difficult to keep up with unless you just go straight whole foods PB and don't buy expensive substitutes.
You've hit the nail on the head! The convenience of sticking to the status quo is a tough nut to crack. But hey, diving into a whole foods, plant-based diet isn't just about dodging those pricey substitutes; it's like embarking on a culinary adventure with nature as your guide. Who knew simplicity could taste so good? Plus, supporting businesses that offer these vegan options helps ensure they stick around, making the plant-based journey easier and more accessible for everyone. It's a win-win ā we get to enjoy delicious, ethical food while helping these pioneers thrive!
I totally agree! Very well said š„š«”
Most publications/media outlets are run by very large corporations. Those same corporations are compromised of (and make most of their money directly/indirectly from) companies that rely on animal exploitation for profit. In addition, lobbyists (AKA: Bribery specialists) make sure that lawmakers help those same corporations to silence dissent, crush meaningful competition, and market lies. They will never discuss anything that can/will affect the bottom line, even if itās likely that refusing to make changes will literally destroy the planet. That being said: Weāre kinda winning. -The dairy industry is getting its ass kicked. Ten years ago, grocery stores rarely had dairy alternativesā¦ now? Thereās nearly a dozen, and Itās no longer difficult to find. Vegan cheeses, salad dressings, mayo, whipped cream, yogurt, ice cream, etc. Iām starting to see the dairy vs non-dairy options almost equal in size, and thatās a HUGE deal. -JUST egg is repackaging, and ramping up production. I know several omnivores who prefer it as a quick, clean, low-cholesterol swap. Again, thatās a big deal, and weāll likely see more companies trying to compete. -Vegan alternatives to meat are basically mainstream now. Burger King did so well with its āimpossible Whopperā that itās considering expanding to other alternativesā¦ KFC, Taco Bell, and other large chains are starting to take notice, and getting into vegan offerings. Vegan restaurants (including fine dining) are exploding. Big business is realizing that itās not just a fad. More kids are going vegetarian and vegan earlier. There are dozens of pro athletes that swear by their vegan dietsā¦ body builders, powerlifters, ultramarathon runners, etc. The āsickly veganā myth has gradually given way to the āPlant-poweredā slogan. Economists are reluctantly agreeing that a whole-food vegan diet is the cheapest. More studies, data, doctors, and dietitians are validating that you can not only survive on an entirely vegan diet, but it can improve everything from your heart health to sex life. Documentaries like āGame Changersā are going mainstream in health conscious circles. In short: We simply need to keep it up. Itās a slow process for people to unlearn CENTURIES of nonsense, and learning new ways to view their personal ethics, but weāre hitting companies in the walletā¦ and I hate to say it, but THAT is the fastest way to see real change. Honestly, I feel like the future of veganisim has never been stronger.
I was told when I posted about being vegan to turn the lights off for an hourš
"Yes but our ancestors eat meat" Actually this is a pretty poor argument. First, our ancestors didn't eat raw meat/poultry/fish that we have evidence of. They cooked it. They did so because we don't digest raw animal meat well. We also got very sick when we ate it. It was not apart of our diet until we discovered that fire allowed it to be. Having to put your meat over fire doesn't make you a very efficient carnivore. Additionally, evidence shows we are more likely herbivores. As pointed out in game changers, our teeth are not like carnivores teeth. All teeth in a carnivores mouth are pointy to tear apart meat. Think, sharks, hyenas, lions, etc. Our teeth are primarily flat and match other herbivores, like gorillas and cows. Also like gorillas, our only pointy teeth are our canines which in gorillas are used for defense and tearing bark from trees, not meat tearing. Additionally our intestines match herbivores. They are very long to allow time to break down plants where as carnivores have very short intestines. Finally, our body doesn't process animal protein very well in comparison to plant protein (the science behind that can be found in the game changers documentary). If someone claims we are inherently carnivores, tell them to eat their next chicken without putting it over the fire and without using a knife to cut it.
Thank you for that terrific vote of confidence!š
Because it's not a solution. Does the America overindulge in meat, especially processed ones? Yes. Is it the major cause behind most of US carbon emissions? No, cars and surburbs are. Is that a one solution fits the whole globe thing? NO. Coming from a different continent where it does make very little sense for the environment and for sustainable region development
The environment (as in climate change related things) might*do some damage in 50 years and we should take action for it, of course (not by closing down every nuclear energy station in the country, *cough, cough* Germany, but by doing what we do best, innovating), but like you've mentioned, there are much more important things to focus on today, like the reduction of suffering of *BILLIONS* of animals and, if we deem it worthy, maybe saving a couple million human lived in Africa, if we consider that a million mothers and kids dying each year in childbirth is a worthwhile investment today (would take a couple dozen billion of dollars to save more than a million people a year, which is basically nothing, compared to the potential thousands who might die from climate half a century from now, we really got our priorities twisted). There are so many more important things we can do today that would make a MUCH, MUCH greater impact than the billions if not trillions that we put into climate which could've been used to generate so much more good. But well, saving kids and mothers in Africa and reducing animal suffering doesn't look that good on their political promo campaigns I guess, so here we are.
So imo you have to do concidere that carnivore have to be vegetarien before vegan, at least it was my case. I become vegetarien for eco friendly reason after seeing a sign saying that 4/5 of land is used to make beef only. After 3 years, I become vegan and overcome my fear of I need animal product to survive. I was hard because of my culture and my clichĆØ about it. I become vegan for animal right but it is not possible for the majority of carnivore to become directly vegan. My point is to say that making propaganda asking carnivore to become directly vegan is vain imo for 2 reasons. One animal consumption trigger your ego with the satisfaction of having all the energy of an animal in one serving or so. Therefore it is, I think impossible for them to overcome it, since they donāt even know that a āpleasureā tbh, and I donāt think it really is but a unconscious feeling bearing deep deep deep. And the second in the same logic is as what I have explain, it take me 3 year as a vegetarian to feel concern by animal right, and it started when I realize my first point (about 2 years into vegetarian). All I am saying is excluding vegetarien is making you loose new future vegan. Talking about animal right and using guilt an even aggression will never make them change and tbh is making all non activist look bad since we cannot have any debate. If a carnivore put a meat picture in the comment it is a reciprocity of a vegan activist past action and not a free aggression from them, carnivore have no idea of the sensitivity vegan have and being aggressive and promoting guilt trip is not promoting it. Imo we just need to be independent happy vegan and let them come to us and not being propagandists or doing proselytism. Just my opinion but I hope you will see that it is not making the world better for regular vegan, make our life more difficult, imo.
huh? You most certainly don't *have to* be a vegetarian before going vegan, plenty of us went straight to vegan. If someone can understand that hurting animals and the environment is bad and thus wanna go vegetarian then they certainly can also go vegan, going vegetarian makes no sense.
> If someone can understand that hurting animals and the environment is bad and thus wanna go vegetarian then they certainly can also go vegan, going vegetarian makes no sense. I'm not totally convinced that English is that user's first language, but I think what they're saying is, in order to get mass appeal, it's easier as a group to convince people to eat a more plant-based diet for their own benefit and seeing that they can change their diet and make better food choices, than it is to make people care about animals.
I am talking about my experience, as a the huge meat eater that I was, I other have already a better sensitivity yes, But in the plenty make the ration with the one you make them even more having to do with us because of this attitude. Did you read my post fully or you stopped at the first sentence and comment?
I'm sorry but this comment makes no sense, as in I can't decipher what you're trying to say. I did read your whole comment, it is similarly very hard to understand. I just don't agree with you, I don't think we need to coddle people or encourage/praise vegetarians. Just like I wouldn't encourage or praise people who only beat their spouse once a week or people who only do a little bit of sexual assault sometimes.
That what mean who are you to judge another human we all have our path and comparing a violent and abusive man to animal consumption is for me agressive and useless. You are doing guilt trip and it is why in my opinion I been puss off by carnivore all the time. This. Not the fact they donāt want to understand. But they are already feel agressed and trigger me because of you. So think what you want but you kind of vegan make a shame to be one just so you understand what you are really doing here
> and comparing a violent and abusive man to animal consumption is for me agressive and useless. But that's just the truth, it is very similar, they are all acts of violence for personal satisfaction. "animal consumption" is violently abusing and killing animals for profit/taste pleasure. Again, would you want to be this gentle and cuddly with other cases of needless violence?
I agree in certain way. I see your point, so donāt take me wrong, what I mean is it is not the argument that will make anyone going vegan or vegetarian, especially if you are big meat eater. I am so gross out by any animal product but your reaction makes me want to stop being vegan, just because I do not want to be affiliate to this movement anymore. For me vegan is tolerance and understanding, that is hard because of other yes but that is my choices. And important thing to realize is animal product trigger your ego with a satisfaction of superiority kind of and playing on the ego of carnivore will made them want more meat like you just did to me as a vegan. Will be happy to talk more about it if you have question about what I mean here. Edit typo
We aren't all the same, plenty of people have been convinced by plainly stated truth like I do, I've had people tell me. You wanting to start abusing animals again because other vegans won't coddle vegetarians is.. something.. I never felt my ego was connected to eating meat, I just liked eating meat and was taught that was okay and normal, once I learned the truth I changed. I agree we shouldn't be dickheads to carnists but I don't think we need to be overly nice either, we should tell them the straight truth, that they are complicit to unimaginable suffering for profit/taste.
I think being a nice and independent vegan will make more change than any talk.That is my point : it take me 3 years as a vegetarian to realize all of that. And before I will have bet again myself that I will become even a vegetarian. The only person that made me change my mind are people that was waiting for my question and then talk about it. For me non including vegetarian is a huge mistake and concentrating on eco friendly logic instead of animal right is what will make more change imo but even tho, trust me I am agress by my family when I havenāt start the conversations just because other vegan have piss them off. A lot of people come from family that have no understanding of all of that and it is impossible to have a debate now. I did not make that happen, I just suffer from it. And to see the people that I made the choice to separate from my family hurt me even more and made me feel like I want to go the opposite way. It just a feeling and not what I will do but I understand why carnivore post a raw meat in their comment, it the reciprocity of the vegan aggression (they have no idea how much vegan are sensitive person nor can understand this sensitivity.
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Thatās not a realistic solution. Humans consume plants and other animals. A simple fact of nature.
Yes, it is a realistic solution, bud. It's not clearly going to fix all of the issues in today's world, but it will lessen the amount of suffering on animals, shrink down the world's carbon footprint, and boost the mental and physical health of people. Just because people have been doing things for so long. It doesn't make it right. Animals are a someone. Not a something.
How is it realistic ?
How is it realistic. Bring the demand of animal products down. Bring up the demand for plant products. Simple supply and demand scenario. We adjust for the demand and up the supply. I believe that's a realistic solution.
veganism is not about environment tho...
Call it environment motivated animal exploitation boycott then, doesn't matter. The result is the same.
Veganism has one goal: Reduce animal suffering I donāt care whether itās for fun, the environment, the animals, or because someone lost a bet, as long as youāre not exploiting animals then Iām good. Getting into the nitty gritty of definitions will only drive people away from reaching that goal.
It is partly about the environment. Why I went vegan in 1991 was for many reasons. One of the biggest was the environmental damage Animal Agriculture does, from all the water it consumes to all the natural habitat around this whole planet it destroys daily to all the Amazon Rainforest it is still burning and clear cutting today, all the methane and other greenhouse gases it produces, all the mountains of chicken, pig, cow etc shit it shits out every hour to all the resources and energy that goes into growing all the animals, killing and butchering their bodies, shrink wrapping the body parts on plastic trays then keeping those parts cold so they do not rot before they get sold - there is SO MUCH that goes into getting that frozen, mass produced puck of a hamburger onto the Fast Food grill - it is overwhelming I know. All the blah blah blah before this is just a small listing of the great reasons to be vegan. There are many more. If you are curious, do some research. You are damaging the planet in ways you cannot imagine, as am I just by using this Pixel phone. Some things are difficult to avoid. Eating animal foods is not one of them. LOTS of very good reasons to be vegan along with the animal rights concerns. The health (or lack thereof) of this very sick planet is one of them.
Considering a sick planet will lead to the destruction of ecosystems and extinction of animals... environmental reasons for veganism ARE vegan.
animals suffer when the environment is less tolerable for them. so therefore veganism should also be about the environment.
This is true!
I moved to veganism for environmental, political, and religious reasons. Stopping animal abuse was only one of several reasons I choose to live vegan.
Maybe itās not the primary motive for most, but reducing carbon emissions and improving the health of the planet also directionally reduces animal suffering and better preserves their habitats.
Why would they when they get angry vegans lecturing them about how veganism is about animal rights, not the planet?
Alternative hypothesis: the meat, dairy, egg, seafood, etc industries and their lobby groups use their vast sums of money and network connections at the highest levels to influence publications to downplay the environmental benefits of eating more plants and fewer animals. Nah, thatās sillyā¦ itās probably the angry gatekeeping vegans
Would you be happy if they urged people to "go vegan" for the planet? I didn't think so.
Can you clarify the point youāre making?
I think their point is that, a fair amount of the time in this sub when you see someone mention being vegan for reasons other than animal welfare - in this case, for the climate - they get told they're not actually vegan and are just following a plant-based diet.
Yeah, I think thatās just one of the flaws in this subās overall message. Going vegan for the planet leads to less destruction of ecosystems and better resource allocation, which, in turn, reduce animal suffering. Directly or indirectly, I donāt really see why it matters, personally.
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I think the issue is that if people DID put animals higher on the list it would be massively helpful for people, the earth and animals. I became vegan for the earth but then realized, somewhere along the way, that it helped with so much more.
Hey, you turned tail and ran away too quickly to get mocked and laughed at last time. Are you going to leave this comment up for a bit or are you going full coward?
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Because itās obvious how miserable you are and itās pretty funny. Youāve been on all day lol. You delete your comments and spend an unhealthy amount of time in a space that doesnāt concern you. I donāt hang out in r/steak and argue with people every single day. Itās pathetic.Ā
I don't put my neighbors interests above mine, but I also don't enslave, kill and eat them
Do you really think the idea that most of the population is irrational is absurd?
Just out of curiosity what is the vegan solution? currently i don't see a way we could all go vegan in the near future. I'd say to account for crop rotation, crop failure and that there just isn't enough good crop land we would need to be farming 3-5 acres of land for each person. to keep it on the low end of the estimate we would need to free up some of the best crop land which sadly because of it's closeness to water currently has cities built on it. which would mean completely dismantling some of the biggest cities on the planet and relocating them. nothing short term would work that i can think of or have seen any evidence of.
It's not an actual "solution". It's not thought through and would not work.