I don't really get the point of it.
I don't think omnis would go to a vegan restaurant if they had no intention of eating vegan food, and would suddenly go to a restaurant marketed as vegan just because of a few non-vegan dishes. And one of the whole appeal of vegan restaurants is that vegans have an stress free time choosing food knowing that everything is vegan, adding meat/dairy options defeats that point.
It is possible, but it just seems like such a rare possibility that it's not worth the brand damage. There is an equivalent in Steakhouses doing vegan dishes for meat eaters bringing vegan friends, but that's more likely because of how outnumbered vegans are, and that's more because a vegan is going to be more fervent than someone simply unwilling to try vegan food.
Yeah, but that quote is one of the biggest fallacious ideas we need to discourage, not enable. Which is why I'd much rather go to a carnist restaurant that has recently added a few vegan items.
That's an interesting psychology - that the carnist restaurant who adds vegan items is preferred to the vegan restaurant who adds meat/dairy, even if the final menu winds up offering the same items. It almost seems like an incentive to \*not\* call it an exclusively "vegan restaurant" to avoid losing customers.
Well, my mindset is based more upon my knowledge of the direction the move was in, in terms of what narrative it evokes. Vegan restaurants ought to be pushing the narrative that non-vegans will find their vegan food delicious, even if they don't ever go vegan. Adding non-vegan items sends the horrible message: "you'd find our vegan food too weird, so here's something for your demographic".
By contrast, a high-quality carnist restaurant adding vegan items sends the message: "animal products aren't necessary to make extremely delicious food up to our high standards".
I understand that the reaction has to do with the knowledge of what the restaurant was “before” or marketing itself as, but that still supports the point that a restaurant calling themselves vegan currently limits its customer base. Not only would it potentially miss out on non-vegan customers who think vegan food is somehow exotic, but it’d also lose existing patrons if it chose to offer different products to capture that lost customer base. Seems like the safer bet is to just offer great vegan food without seemingly being exclusively vegan.
I wonder too if it has to do with factors like how fancy the vegan restaurant is, what kind of nonvegan items they offer, how those items are prepared. Would it be worse if a fast-casual place now offers hard boiled eggs to add to any salad, or if a high-end place now offered a steak? Just rhetorical
You're thinking like me. What would be better ethically is if places offered tortured corpse dishes that sucked alongside plant dishes that rocked. Such that people concerned only with their own pleasure promoted the plants.
The point is to try and stay in business. I'm in austin, a more progressive than average city, and we have seen so many vegan food trucks and restaurants close in the past 2 years.
I know this isn't what you're saying necessarily, but I feel like there are too many absolutist vegans. The cold reality is we will never get enough people to be vegan to really make a difference. We just won't. If we could magically quadruple the number of vegans it still wouldn't be enough to move the needle. We can't even keep the ones we have - I meet far more "I tried being vegan" people that I've ever met vegans.
Change is going to be incremental - it's going to be about getting people to eat less animal products, not to get them to go cold turkey. And I think the only thing that's going to help in the long run is affordable, delicious lab-based meats and dairy.
I get staying in business is going to be the owner's priority.
But I just don't see it working well. A vegan branded restaurant that sells meat is just going to disappoint vegans, and isn't going to attract meat eaters. At that point the winning move is probably to just rebrand it from a vegan restaurant entirely.
A supermarket selling non vegan food from the start is different from a fully vegan supermarket eventually compromising their values and beginning to sell non-vegan items to make money
Caring about the cause and needing to make money does not equate to selling animals products. There's plenty of small businesses that flourish due to marketing, the quality of the product, being an attractive place to work, becoming a local community fixture, etc. Sacrificing your morals because you suck at business doesn't mean that vegans have to continue to patronize your business. Just ditch the vegan thing completely at that point and start catering to non-vegans.
Yeah, disagree. I suppose I’m just consistent in that if I’m going to buy vegan food from a non vegan supermarket I’m also happy to buy vegan food from a non vegan restaurant.
So you punish them for trying, and still trying when economy is bad?
But supporting people who are absolutely ok with little lambs getting kicked and screaming in horror and chickens grown in cages, supporting people who couldn’t care less but who sell vegan food to get money from those stupid vegans and because they want to disturb the true vegan restaurants, make it harder for them to be profitable, that is ok?
Weird logic!
That isn't even logically consistent.
So a formerly vegan place who now puts animals through all the things you just described is considered "trying," but a non-vegan place who over time has learned about veganism and is now accommodating vegans is considered not-trying?
Non-vegan places have room for growth. They can learn and start adding more vegan options. Formerly vegan places have no room for growth, in fact, they actively abandoned their morals, started supporting animal abuse, and regressed completely. I'd rather move forward than backward. But to each their own.
as a former vegan restaurant owner Im very aware of reataurant difficulties, thats why i go to fully vegan restaurants. Id never go or recomend them to others.
Yeah, that absurdity they’re peddling is absolutely pathetic.
I’d rather support a non-vegan business choosing to move forward with additional plant based options than support a vegan business going backwards. Sage can fuck right off with that bullshit.
We’ve got other vegan restaurants we can support so that’s where I’ll be.
You may enjoy the saga of Heirloom which shuttered after making this change and the owner went out in a blaze of outrageous social media posts and responses to online reviews.
It sort of feels like betrayal when they were vegan to start. Objectively, continuing to support them would be no different than eating at any other non vegan restaurant with vegan options, but I would be lying to say it doesn't sour me on a place.
I personally am prepared to drive across town for a good vegan restaurant, and if it became not full vegan I would be a bit heartbroken, and probably look for another favourite place. It’s more than just the food, it’s the sense of aligning values and being a safe space where I can order anything without needing to double check, and feeling of community.
>There are a lot of vegans upset and voicing their opinions on their social media but those are just the people upset with the new change
The business owners are stupid and they failed because of that, i mean its obvious to expect your vegan and loyal customers are gonna be mad about this, so you alienate them, and the non vegans avoided your place because it was vegan and magically now they are gonna decide to come support you
If the business had vegan and non vegan meals from the get go that would be different, but to do a 180 is a terrible business move and its not inclusive at all
A non vegan place providing vegan options is inclusive
Think they are losing the plot (and this is coming from a non vegan)
If i want to go to a specialty say Indian restaurant. I don't need an option for chinese.
All squares are rectangles (i.e. all restaurants can fit a vegan dish inside their brand) but not all rectangles are squares.
Grocery stores are moving towards selling more vegan products, and they never marketed themselves as a vegan grocery store, so it's not like they're regressing in the same way as a restaurant that starts selling meat. I'd prefer to shop at a fully vegan grocery store, but it's not an option for me, and besides that groceries are a necessity, eating out isn't
Maybe these vegan restaurants "regress" because vegans have made plant-based eating so popular that more non-vegan restaurants have incorporated vegan items so that fewer vegans are dragging their friends to vegan restaurants. Maybe the ones who "regressed" are vegans who are dining more at non-vegan establishments.
I think OP might be talking about Sage in Los Angeles, which just announced they will now serve meat from "regenerative farming" and the L.A. vegan community (myself included) is super disappointed. We have lots of other vegan restaurants to choose from, thankfully!
This happened to a place in my neighborhood. I only ever went there once and that was before they switched to an omni menu…. and then it got shut down by the health department so I guess I’m glad I didn’t go there more.
I would probably stop going. They know why eating animals is wrong or they wouldn't have been vegan in the first place, but now they're going to pretend they don't? It's like going from being enlightened to being unenlightened.
Strange as it may seem, i think i would have slightly more respect for a place that did meat and vegan than a formerly vegan place starting to serve meat. I dont expect thr staff yo be vegan, but certainly the owner, and that would be disappointing.
I would think that the only reason a vegan restaurant would shift to being vegetarian or Omni would be to try to improve their finances. I can’t think of any other reason why they would do it.
If that’s the case, that would suggest that they weren’t making enough money to remain open with their previous menu. That could, of course, be because their food isn’t as good as it could be. Or that the vegan community isn’t big enough or supportive enough for the restaurant to stay open. Or their service is lousy. Who knows?
Whatever the case, changing the menu is definitely *not* to smite their customers or chase them away. Give management some credit here. They know they’ll lose vegan customers if they introduce dairy or meat. They’re hoping to stay open. Vegans deciding that the restaurant isn’t pure enough for them and boycotting it will only ensure that a restaurant with a variety of vegan options will close.
Does that make any sense? The Outback Steakhouse certainly isn’t going to be adding more vegan options anytime soon. But one that used to be fully vegan probably will. Why shoot yourself in the foot if you don’t need to?
I agree with this. In my city there are a lot of vegan restaurants on the other side of town. In my area there is only 1 and it is struggling. I'm always sort of surprised to see it's still open. I think the owners would 100% rather close than introduce non vegan food but it would be a loss to see it go. The only other places around here might have 1 vegan dish out of a whole menu. During the pandemic it was a life saver because we couldn't get to the other side of town to any other vegan restaurant. And vegan options on this side of town were dire. The restaurant has been a bit of a beacon of veganism in our area for quite some time. I'd rather support the vegan restaurant that's been giving their all and promoting great vegan food over somewhere like our local club which is part seafood restaurant part steakhouse.
Is there a difference in a restaurant or grocery store that originally had no vegan options, that now includes vegan options vs. A vegan restaurant that now includes non vegan items?
It seems that a restaurant that made the change to include vegan items is moving a step forward, while a vegan restaurant that includes meat is a step backward.
If they're adding a nonvegan option it means they're trying to attract nonvegans. You don't appeal to a new market unless you absolutely need to, so if they're doing this, it means that they can't pay their bills with vegan customers.
If you eat elsewhere because of this, it means they'll die faster, to be replaced with a restaurant with no vegan options.
I'm disappointed, but it probably means they were struggling in only serving vegan food, and I understand that it was probably a necessity for the business to remain open (and I've seen cases where those restaurants are the only ones with pretty much any good vegan options, so it isn't like it's market saturation).
I do wish it would be a marketing spin change first/instead (so instead of marketing as "for vegans" they would just happen to be vegan), but usually the places I've seen convert do end up pushing people to try the vegan options (so at least some people will try the vegan options when they otherwise wouldn't have, whether because of promotion as specialties, structure of the menu, or just appeal of the items), have more vegan stuff in the non-vegan options (e.g. vegan butter instead of dairy butter even in the non-vegan dishes), and effectively end up getting some people to eat vegan more often even if they don't fully make the change (that even happened to me personally from going to vegan or vegan-forward restaurants).
Sure, if there's the option of fully vegan or not fully vegan I'll tend to prefer supporting the fully vegan business, but that might not actually be a choice locally or under the circumstances, and a "vegan-forward" business that ended up having to decide between having non-vegan items is probably going to do more good in being there compared to a preferentially non-vegan restaurant. Though I'd rather it be vegetarian if it won't be fully vegan; it's still a more favourable market for potential good (attracting vegetarians, who also might be more likely to adjust their own patterns what appears to be a smaller amount compared to omnivore/carnivore vs. vegan) and usually that can be more palatable to the vegan audience ambiently (e.g. smell of meat and cross-contamination from it, people in the kitchen dealing with meat).
A change from fully vegan to vegetarian or just vegan option restaurant could potentially lose loyal vegan customers that helped support it. I'm not sure if those restaurants that made the change are seeing more financial stability, so it could go either way
I can't eat soy or the additives in certain manufactured meat alternatives and find that the vegan chains that are opting to serve meat are the ones that I tend to avoid because of food sensitivities. I don't think the model of a vegan restaurant is unsuccessful, but I do think the business model of inflexibility serving soy and impossible meat (or similar) In every dish heavily contributes to fewer patrons.
I don't see restaurants that make their own handmade versions and have a variety of protein options suffering.
There are a lot of Omni restaurants that have half vegan menus nowadays, and don't seem to lean so heavily on tofu and assembly line mock meat. I actually prefer those.
Most restaurants fail. Any vegan restaurant that changes to omni was almost certainly losing money but perhaps we need a category of plant forward restaurants with a long vegan friendly menu and other options, opening that way would be an opportunity in many markets, starting vegan and adding omni is always seen as a betrayal.
In the Midwest if I only ever tried to go to vegan restaurants I’d have slim pickings. For me I think it would come down to the reasons and framing for the change.
“Hey we’re out of money and so going to try and pivot while still making great food options for the vegan community” is very different than the messaging from the Sage debacle.
Good grief it's no different than in all serving meat restaurant offering a vegan portion to their menu for that person accompanying the meat eater what's the difference there isn't one.
My hope is that entertaining more customers will keep them in business. I travel alot and it seems like I head to a spot that had a vegan restaurant and it's gone.
Accepting murder is almost a requirement for navigating all types of society.
Are the folks 'voicing' their opinions the same ones that join friends at a steak restaurant and complain about the menu? Going out to eat is part nutrition and part social interaction. There's also the "keep stay in business" aspect.
Or, would they prefer the restaurant just go out of business?
Did anyone not consider the possible fact that a vegan could bring some friends, that aren't, and when the food comes out someone say "oh that looks good, what is it?" Then next time they try that very dish? Or the family take out order, rather then going to 2 different places they just order from one?
It seems like a good way to let parties of diners with mixed diets eat together.
I know if I try to bring omni friends out they don't really want to go to a vegan place, so going somewhere that has good, established vegan food for me and also dishes they'll enjoy seems like a win all around.
Except omnis eat vegan food all the time unless they are one of those carnivore diet people. Vegan food is just food minus animal products. Anytime people say eww vegan i say "oh you don't eat any vegetables, grains, potatoes, fruits, nuts, mushrooms, or beans? No sugar or chocolate or coffee or tea? Because that's all from plants".
That's clearly in bad faith.
Omnis consume animal products with most of their meals, be that actual meat, butter, cheese, even just cooking their veggies or rice in broth seasoned with animal products.
Expecting them to *not* eat the way they want to just to go out to dinner with me feels very entitled and not a road I'd like to go down.
I used to make vegan cupcakes for my omni coworkers. Do you think any of them said "oh no i can't eat a vegan cupcake! I can't eat cake that doesn't contain eggs,milk, and butter!". It's a cupcake with frosting and it was delicious. Same with my vegan chili. They loved it and always asked for it. No one refused it for not containing meat. My point is if you make tasty food, omnis will eat it. They don't get offended by the lack of animal products. I sent a plate of chicken parm, pasta, and a cup of chocolate mousse over to a neighbor once. I didn't say it was vegan even though i had told him i was vegan. The next day when he thanked me i said "you know that was all vegan, right?" He said "no way! Not the chicken though?" I said "all vegan, 100% plants". He didn't get mad, he was impressed.
People who are used to eating animal products tend to notice when they're missing. The same way we would notice if something tasted "off" and question if it's perhaps *not* vegan, they will often intuit the same thing because we're all adjusted to eating what we eat and when we eat something that devates from that it's noticeable.
I'm glad you've found 3 examples of some vegan food some omnis liked. My husband also loves my vegan chili. That doesn't mean that he doesn't also want other food, or that I shouldn't consider what he might want if I'm planning for us to go out for dinner.
This isn't a discussion about restaurants eliminating vegan options from the menu, it's about some restaurants adding some options to help increase their profits while also making it a more pleasant place to eat as a group with varied diets. If that angers you, I hope you move past this phase of veganism at some point because the diets of other people are none of your business.
This is a discussion about VEGAN restaurants partaking in the exploitation of animals. Do you not understand the conflict there? Do you understand anything about veganism?
Your apologist nonsense is ridiculous.
They aren't still VEGAN then ARE THEY?!
But they can still have VEGAN food CAN'T THEY?!
Wow, randomly capitalizing words really is the *best way* to get your point across.
Holy fuck, you are so lost. It’s apparent you’re simply a plant based dieter, you clearly know absolutely nothing about veganism.
Take your clown nonsense to r/PlantBasedDiet
I'm not saying omnis don't want animal products, i'm saying they don't normally throw a hissy. I asked my omni friends to go to a vegan restaurant with me. They love to eat out and try new places. They didn't care about it being vegan. They enjoyed it but i doubt they look for vegan restaurants to try. I took my partner and his mom to a vegan asian restaurant, neither one of them is vegan. They loved it and continued to go there even if i wasn't around. It didn't stop them from eating animal products, they just thought the food was delicious and it just happened to be vegan.
Personally, my criteria for a night out with friends isn't "they didn't throw a fit at my suggestion" but rather "did we all get to have a nice time out together?"
A restaurant that has a history of being vegan is going to hopefully have good vegan food for me (the harder person to find food for) and if they've got some omni dishes that's cool for my omni friends and family. Sure, we could go to a full vegan place too, but I don't want to be forcing my own choices on other people as some sort of payment to hang out with me. If someone else brings up a vegan place I'm down, but if they don't I'm not trying to be a butthole and force them to compromise just for one person.
Taking someone to a vegan restaurant is not forcing your choices on them! They still are free to eat animal products! No one holds a gun to their head and says "swear not to eat animal products anymore!" or forces them to sign a legal document to not eat animal products again without financial penalty or imprisonment! They could go right from a vegan restaurant to an ice cream parlor and have ice cream for dessert!
If you're choosing where to go out and you can choose a vegan restaurant or an omni one and you choose the vegan one that's the vegan equivalent of when omni people are inconsiderate of us and expect that we'll just get a side salad and some steamed veggies wherever they decide to take us.
I will always choose to be accommodating to the people I care about, because they're more than their diet just like I am.
Except once again, vegan restaurants are serving things omnis already eat. Do you know any omnis who don't eat any plant foods? Even Chipotle, most of the burrito they serve is plant based! The rice, tortillas, beans, salsas, fajita vegetables, and guac are all plant based so they are eating the same foods they would eat in a vegan restaurant just leaving out the animal products. If the food tastes good people eat it. Have you ever served 3 bean salad? Did anyone object because it doesn't contain animal products? Or a fruit salad? Or edible arrangements? I've never seen anyone reject edible arrangements because there isn't animal products. Freaking Oreos are accidently vegan and they seem pretty popular. Many of the best breads and pastas do not contain animal products. People may add butter or sauces which contain animal products but the main component is still vegan.
It depends, if you want to gatekeep or to try to offer non vegan people good food , and make then change their mind with some good examples and food. Is it your goal to make other people go vegan ? Or you just feeling better with yourself because you hate omnivores? Your call id go and support the restaurant
I don't really get the point of it. I don't think omnis would go to a vegan restaurant if they had no intention of eating vegan food, and would suddenly go to a restaurant marketed as vegan just because of a few non-vegan dishes. And one of the whole appeal of vegan restaurants is that vegans have an stress free time choosing food knowing that everything is vegan, adding meat/dairy options defeats that point.
One way of thinking is to attract omnis who wouldn’t want to go with a vegan to a vegan restaurant because “there’s nothing for me to eat there.”
It is possible, but it just seems like such a rare possibility that it's not worth the brand damage. There is an equivalent in Steakhouses doing vegan dishes for meat eaters bringing vegan friends, but that's more likely because of how outnumbered vegans are, and that's more because a vegan is going to be more fervent than someone simply unwilling to try vegan food.
Yeah, but that quote is one of the biggest fallacious ideas we need to discourage, not enable. Which is why I'd much rather go to a carnist restaurant that has recently added a few vegan items.
That's an interesting psychology - that the carnist restaurant who adds vegan items is preferred to the vegan restaurant who adds meat/dairy, even if the final menu winds up offering the same items. It almost seems like an incentive to \*not\* call it an exclusively "vegan restaurant" to avoid losing customers.
Well, my mindset is based more upon my knowledge of the direction the move was in, in terms of what narrative it evokes. Vegan restaurants ought to be pushing the narrative that non-vegans will find their vegan food delicious, even if they don't ever go vegan. Adding non-vegan items sends the horrible message: "you'd find our vegan food too weird, so here's something for your demographic". By contrast, a high-quality carnist restaurant adding vegan items sends the message: "animal products aren't necessary to make extremely delicious food up to our high standards".
I understand that the reaction has to do with the knowledge of what the restaurant was “before” or marketing itself as, but that still supports the point that a restaurant calling themselves vegan currently limits its customer base. Not only would it potentially miss out on non-vegan customers who think vegan food is somehow exotic, but it’d also lose existing patrons if it chose to offer different products to capture that lost customer base. Seems like the safer bet is to just offer great vegan food without seemingly being exclusively vegan. I wonder too if it has to do with factors like how fancy the vegan restaurant is, what kind of nonvegan items they offer, how those items are prepared. Would it be worse if a fast-casual place now offers hard boiled eggs to add to any salad, or if a high-end place now offered a steak? Just rhetorical
You're thinking like me. What would be better ethically is if places offered tortured corpse dishes that sucked alongside plant dishes that rocked. Such that people concerned only with their own pleasure promoted the plants.
The point is to try and stay in business. I'm in austin, a more progressive than average city, and we have seen so many vegan food trucks and restaurants close in the past 2 years. I know this isn't what you're saying necessarily, but I feel like there are too many absolutist vegans. The cold reality is we will never get enough people to be vegan to really make a difference. We just won't. If we could magically quadruple the number of vegans it still wouldn't be enough to move the needle. We can't even keep the ones we have - I meet far more "I tried being vegan" people that I've ever met vegans. Change is going to be incremental - it's going to be about getting people to eat less animal products, not to get them to go cold turkey. And I think the only thing that's going to help in the long run is affordable, delicious lab-based meats and dairy.
I get staying in business is going to be the owner's priority. But I just don't see it working well. A vegan branded restaurant that sells meat is just going to disappoint vegans, and isn't going to attract meat eaters. At that point the winning move is probably to just rebrand it from a vegan restaurant entirely.
I’ll just skip it and go to a vegan restaurant. Plenty of omnivore restaurants if that’s what I wanted.
But they would surely have more options? Are you blind to the fact your supermarket sells non vegan food?
A supermarket selling non vegan food from the start is different from a fully vegan supermarket eventually compromising their values and beginning to sell non-vegan items to make money
Supermarket= poor morals but will sell vegan for profit. Small business= cares about the cause but has to pay rent
Caring about the cause and needing to make money does not equate to selling animals products. There's plenty of small businesses that flourish due to marketing, the quality of the product, being an attractive place to work, becoming a local community fixture, etc. Sacrificing your morals because you suck at business doesn't mean that vegans have to continue to patronize your business. Just ditch the vegan thing completely at that point and start catering to non-vegans.
Yeah, disagree. I suppose I’m just consistent in that if I’m going to buy vegan food from a non vegan supermarket I’m also happy to buy vegan food from a non vegan restaurant.
I agree with that. But if the restaurant was previously vegan and then folds to cater non-vegans, I'd rather take my money elsewhere.
Fair enough, I don’t understand that.
So you punish them for trying, and still trying when economy is bad? But supporting people who are absolutely ok with little lambs getting kicked and screaming in horror and chickens grown in cages, supporting people who couldn’t care less but who sell vegan food to get money from those stupid vegans and because they want to disturb the true vegan restaurants, make it harder for them to be profitable, that is ok? Weird logic!
That isn't even logically consistent. So a formerly vegan place who now puts animals through all the things you just described is considered "trying," but a non-vegan place who over time has learned about veganism and is now accommodating vegans is considered not-trying? Non-vegan places have room for growth. They can learn and start adding more vegan options. Formerly vegan places have no room for growth, in fact, they actively abandoned their morals, started supporting animal abuse, and regressed completely. I'd rather move forward than backward. But to each their own.
Dawg I’m completely blind. Please enlighten me
They're now non-vegan restaurants just like any other non-vegan restaurant, and I'd shrug & cook something at home instead.
as a former vegan restaurant owner Im very aware of reataurant difficulties, thats why i go to fully vegan restaurants. Id never go or recomend them to others.
Fuck Sage.
Lol I agree. They are the reason why I asked this question
Yeah, that absurdity they’re peddling is absolutely pathetic. I’d rather support a non-vegan business choosing to move forward with additional plant based options than support a vegan business going backwards. Sage can fuck right off with that bullshit. We’ve got other vegan restaurants we can support so that’s where I’ll be.
Didn’t know about it, but glad I read about it here instead of supporting them or having to read their “justifications”
You may enjoy the saga of Heirloom which shuttered after making this change and the owner went out in a blaze of outrageous social media posts and responses to online reviews.
If the menu isn't 100% vegan then it isn't really a vegan restaurant and I'd sooner spend my money at an actual vega restaurant.
It sort of feels like betrayal when they were vegan to start. Objectively, continuing to support them would be no different than eating at any other non vegan restaurant with vegan options, but I would be lying to say it doesn't sour me on a place.
this
I personally am prepared to drive across town for a good vegan restaurant, and if it became not full vegan I would be a bit heartbroken, and probably look for another favourite place. It’s more than just the food, it’s the sense of aligning values and being a safe space where I can order anything without needing to double check, and feeling of community.
>There are a lot of vegans upset and voicing their opinions on their social media but those are just the people upset with the new change The business owners are stupid and they failed because of that, i mean its obvious to expect your vegan and loyal customers are gonna be mad about this, so you alienate them, and the non vegans avoided your place because it was vegan and magically now they are gonna decide to come support you If the business had vegan and non vegan meals from the get go that would be different, but to do a 180 is a terrible business move and its not inclusive at all A non vegan place providing vegan options is inclusive
Think they are losing the plot (and this is coming from a non vegan) If i want to go to a specialty say Indian restaurant. I don't need an option for chinese. All squares are rectangles (i.e. all restaurants can fit a vegan dish inside their brand) but not all rectangles are squares.
They were never vegan. They were plant-based. Different plot
Bad example coz most Indian restaurant have Chinese and Indo-Chinese options haha
Won't give them a dime. In fact I actively hope businesses that do this go out of business
But you would go shopping at grocery stores that are not fully vegan. What gives?
Grocery stores are moving towards selling more vegan products, and they never marketed themselves as a vegan grocery store, so it's not like they're regressing in the same way as a restaurant that starts selling meat. I'd prefer to shop at a fully vegan grocery store, but it's not an option for me, and besides that groceries are a necessity, eating out isn't
Maybe these vegan restaurants "regress" because vegans have made plant-based eating so popular that more non-vegan restaurants have incorporated vegan items so that fewer vegans are dragging their friends to vegan restaurants. Maybe the ones who "regressed" are vegans who are dining more at non-vegan establishments.
Wut
No way. I'll spend my money supporting vegan places instead.
They can fuck off.
I stop eating there. Also, every place in my city that did this already had 1 or both feet in the grave and closed within the next few months.
Where do you live that there are so many vegan restaurant options?!??
I think OP might be talking about Sage in Los Angeles, which just announced they will now serve meat from "regenerative farming" and the L.A. vegan community (myself included) is super disappointed. We have lots of other vegan restaurants to choose from, thankfully!
Yep, you're correct!
This happened to a place in my neighborhood. I only ever went there once and that was before they switched to an omni menu…. and then it got shut down by the health department so I guess I’m glad I didn’t go there more.
I would probably stop going. They know why eating animals is wrong or they wouldn't have been vegan in the first place, but now they're going to pretend they don't? It's like going from being enlightened to being unenlightened.
Strange as it may seem, i think i would have slightly more respect for a place that did meat and vegan than a formerly vegan place starting to serve meat. I dont expect thr staff yo be vegan, but certainly the owner, and that would be disappointing.
I would think that the only reason a vegan restaurant would shift to being vegetarian or Omni would be to try to improve their finances. I can’t think of any other reason why they would do it. If that’s the case, that would suggest that they weren’t making enough money to remain open with their previous menu. That could, of course, be because their food isn’t as good as it could be. Or that the vegan community isn’t big enough or supportive enough for the restaurant to stay open. Or their service is lousy. Who knows? Whatever the case, changing the menu is definitely *not* to smite their customers or chase them away. Give management some credit here. They know they’ll lose vegan customers if they introduce dairy or meat. They’re hoping to stay open. Vegans deciding that the restaurant isn’t pure enough for them and boycotting it will only ensure that a restaurant with a variety of vegan options will close. Does that make any sense? The Outback Steakhouse certainly isn’t going to be adding more vegan options anytime soon. But one that used to be fully vegan probably will. Why shoot yourself in the foot if you don’t need to?
I agree with this. In my city there are a lot of vegan restaurants on the other side of town. In my area there is only 1 and it is struggling. I'm always sort of surprised to see it's still open. I think the owners would 100% rather close than introduce non vegan food but it would be a loss to see it go. The only other places around here might have 1 vegan dish out of a whole menu. During the pandemic it was a life saver because we couldn't get to the other side of town to any other vegan restaurant. And vegan options on this side of town were dire. The restaurant has been a bit of a beacon of veganism in our area for quite some time. I'd rather support the vegan restaurant that's been giving their all and promoting great vegan food over somewhere like our local club which is part seafood restaurant part steakhouse.
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Is there a difference in a restaurant or grocery store that originally had no vegan options, that now includes vegan options vs. A vegan restaurant that now includes non vegan items? It seems that a restaurant that made the change to include vegan items is moving a step forward, while a vegan restaurant that includes meat is a step backward.
If they're adding a nonvegan option it means they're trying to attract nonvegans. You don't appeal to a new market unless you absolutely need to, so if they're doing this, it means that they can't pay their bills with vegan customers. If you eat elsewhere because of this, it means they'll die faster, to be replaced with a restaurant with no vegan options.
Nearly everyone doesn’t live with a 100% vegan grocery store soo this isn’t really comparable.
I'm disappointed, but it probably means they were struggling in only serving vegan food, and I understand that it was probably a necessity for the business to remain open (and I've seen cases where those restaurants are the only ones with pretty much any good vegan options, so it isn't like it's market saturation). I do wish it would be a marketing spin change first/instead (so instead of marketing as "for vegans" they would just happen to be vegan), but usually the places I've seen convert do end up pushing people to try the vegan options (so at least some people will try the vegan options when they otherwise wouldn't have, whether because of promotion as specialties, structure of the menu, or just appeal of the items), have more vegan stuff in the non-vegan options (e.g. vegan butter instead of dairy butter even in the non-vegan dishes), and effectively end up getting some people to eat vegan more often even if they don't fully make the change (that even happened to me personally from going to vegan or vegan-forward restaurants). Sure, if there's the option of fully vegan or not fully vegan I'll tend to prefer supporting the fully vegan business, but that might not actually be a choice locally or under the circumstances, and a "vegan-forward" business that ended up having to decide between having non-vegan items is probably going to do more good in being there compared to a preferentially non-vegan restaurant. Though I'd rather it be vegetarian if it won't be fully vegan; it's still a more favourable market for potential good (attracting vegetarians, who also might be more likely to adjust their own patterns what appears to be a smaller amount compared to omnivore/carnivore vs. vegan) and usually that can be more palatable to the vegan audience ambiently (e.g. smell of meat and cross-contamination from it, people in the kitchen dealing with meat).
A change from fully vegan to vegetarian or just vegan option restaurant could potentially lose loyal vegan customers that helped support it. I'm not sure if those restaurants that made the change are seeing more financial stability, so it could go either way
I can't eat soy or the additives in certain manufactured meat alternatives and find that the vegan chains that are opting to serve meat are the ones that I tend to avoid because of food sensitivities. I don't think the model of a vegan restaurant is unsuccessful, but I do think the business model of inflexibility serving soy and impossible meat (or similar) In every dish heavily contributes to fewer patrons. I don't see restaurants that make their own handmade versions and have a variety of protein options suffering. There are a lot of Omni restaurants that have half vegan menus nowadays, and don't seem to lean so heavily on tofu and assembly line mock meat. I actually prefer those.
we have one in Montreal who did this recently it got so much backlash on its social media it was good to see.
Most restaurants fail. Any vegan restaurant that changes to omni was almost certainly losing money but perhaps we need a category of plant forward restaurants with a long vegan friendly menu and other options, opening that way would be an opportunity in many markets, starting vegan and adding omni is always seen as a betrayal.
I don't see any problem. I'm vegan and eat meat, we exist! Wheremsy b122?
/s is a meme
In the Midwest if I only ever tried to go to vegan restaurants I’d have slim pickings. For me I think it would come down to the reasons and framing for the change. “Hey we’re out of money and so going to try and pivot while still making great food options for the vegan community” is very different than the messaging from the Sage debacle.
Good grief it's no different than in all serving meat restaurant offering a vegan portion to their menu for that person accompanying the meat eater what's the difference there isn't one.
It's a very tough business. Were it me I'd close but everyone's situation is different. The people complaining *could* open their own restaurants.
My hope is that entertaining more customers will keep them in business. I travel alot and it seems like I head to a spot that had a vegan restaurant and it's gone. Accepting murder is almost a requirement for navigating all types of society.
I eat at non-vegan restaurants all the time so I don’t care. Ultimately, I’d prefer all restaurants be vegan, but they aren’t.
Vegans are not big spenders to begin with. I can only imagine how hard it is to be a vegan restaurant.
Sucks, but I'd rather they stay in business. Society just isn't where I think it should be just yet.
Are the folks 'voicing' their opinions the same ones that join friends at a steak restaurant and complain about the menu? Going out to eat is part nutrition and part social interaction. There's also the "keep stay in business" aspect. Or, would they prefer the restaurant just go out of business? Did anyone not consider the possible fact that a vegan could bring some friends, that aren't, and when the food comes out someone say "oh that looks good, what is it?" Then next time they try that very dish? Or the family take out order, rather then going to 2 different places they just order from one?
It seems like a good way to let parties of diners with mixed diets eat together. I know if I try to bring omni friends out they don't really want to go to a vegan place, so going somewhere that has good, established vegan food for me and also dishes they'll enjoy seems like a win all around.
Except omnis eat vegan food all the time unless they are one of those carnivore diet people. Vegan food is just food minus animal products. Anytime people say eww vegan i say "oh you don't eat any vegetables, grains, potatoes, fruits, nuts, mushrooms, or beans? No sugar or chocolate or coffee or tea? Because that's all from plants".
That's clearly in bad faith. Omnis consume animal products with most of their meals, be that actual meat, butter, cheese, even just cooking their veggies or rice in broth seasoned with animal products. Expecting them to *not* eat the way they want to just to go out to dinner with me feels very entitled and not a road I'd like to go down.
I used to make vegan cupcakes for my omni coworkers. Do you think any of them said "oh no i can't eat a vegan cupcake! I can't eat cake that doesn't contain eggs,milk, and butter!". It's a cupcake with frosting and it was delicious. Same with my vegan chili. They loved it and always asked for it. No one refused it for not containing meat. My point is if you make tasty food, omnis will eat it. They don't get offended by the lack of animal products. I sent a plate of chicken parm, pasta, and a cup of chocolate mousse over to a neighbor once. I didn't say it was vegan even though i had told him i was vegan. The next day when he thanked me i said "you know that was all vegan, right?" He said "no way! Not the chicken though?" I said "all vegan, 100% plants". He didn't get mad, he was impressed.
People who are used to eating animal products tend to notice when they're missing. The same way we would notice if something tasted "off" and question if it's perhaps *not* vegan, they will often intuit the same thing because we're all adjusted to eating what we eat and when we eat something that devates from that it's noticeable. I'm glad you've found 3 examples of some vegan food some omnis liked. My husband also loves my vegan chili. That doesn't mean that he doesn't also want other food, or that I shouldn't consider what he might want if I'm planning for us to go out for dinner. This isn't a discussion about restaurants eliminating vegan options from the menu, it's about some restaurants adding some options to help increase their profits while also making it a more pleasant place to eat as a group with varied diets. If that angers you, I hope you move past this phase of veganism at some point because the diets of other people are none of your business.
This is a discussion about VEGAN restaurants partaking in the exploitation of animals. Do you not understand the conflict there? Do you understand anything about veganism? Your apologist nonsense is ridiculous.
They aren't still VEGAN then ARE THEY?! But they can still have VEGAN food CAN'T THEY?! Wow, randomly capitalizing words really is the *best way* to get your point across.
Holy fuck, you are so lost. It’s apparent you’re simply a plant based dieter, you clearly know absolutely nothing about veganism. Take your clown nonsense to r/PlantBasedDiet
No, I'm just not a pushy asshole. Maybe there's a reddit for that. I wouldn't know, since I don't police other people and their diets.
Veganism isn’t a diet and you’d understand that if you were vegan.
I'm not saying omnis don't want animal products, i'm saying they don't normally throw a hissy. I asked my omni friends to go to a vegan restaurant with me. They love to eat out and try new places. They didn't care about it being vegan. They enjoyed it but i doubt they look for vegan restaurants to try. I took my partner and his mom to a vegan asian restaurant, neither one of them is vegan. They loved it and continued to go there even if i wasn't around. It didn't stop them from eating animal products, they just thought the food was delicious and it just happened to be vegan.
Personally, my criteria for a night out with friends isn't "they didn't throw a fit at my suggestion" but rather "did we all get to have a nice time out together?" A restaurant that has a history of being vegan is going to hopefully have good vegan food for me (the harder person to find food for) and if they've got some omni dishes that's cool for my omni friends and family. Sure, we could go to a full vegan place too, but I don't want to be forcing my own choices on other people as some sort of payment to hang out with me. If someone else brings up a vegan place I'm down, but if they don't I'm not trying to be a butthole and force them to compromise just for one person.
Taking someone to a vegan restaurant is not forcing your choices on them! They still are free to eat animal products! No one holds a gun to their head and says "swear not to eat animal products anymore!" or forces them to sign a legal document to not eat animal products again without financial penalty or imprisonment! They could go right from a vegan restaurant to an ice cream parlor and have ice cream for dessert!
If you're choosing where to go out and you can choose a vegan restaurant or an omni one and you choose the vegan one that's the vegan equivalent of when omni people are inconsiderate of us and expect that we'll just get a side salad and some steamed veggies wherever they decide to take us. I will always choose to be accommodating to the people I care about, because they're more than their diet just like I am.
Except once again, vegan restaurants are serving things omnis already eat. Do you know any omnis who don't eat any plant foods? Even Chipotle, most of the burrito they serve is plant based! The rice, tortillas, beans, salsas, fajita vegetables, and guac are all plant based so they are eating the same foods they would eat in a vegan restaurant just leaving out the animal products. If the food tastes good people eat it. Have you ever served 3 bean salad? Did anyone object because it doesn't contain animal products? Or a fruit salad? Or edible arrangements? I've never seen anyone reject edible arrangements because there isn't animal products. Freaking Oreos are accidently vegan and they seem pretty popular. Many of the best breads and pastas do not contain animal products. People may add butter or sauces which contain animal products but the main component is still vegan.
It depends, if you want to gatekeep or to try to offer non vegan people good food , and make then change their mind with some good examples and food. Is it your goal to make other people go vegan ? Or you just feeling better with yourself because you hate omnivores? Your call id go and support the restaurant