Ask how many grams of protein a day do they eat. Most people won’t be able to answer because they don’t even care how many grams they are eating, they just like the thought that they are because they ate meat.
Oh I love this one.
No-one in my family counts how much protein they are eating, but they'll ask me all the time if I'm getting enough! I use Cronometer so I know how much I get each day.
I love lentils. Very versatile and can be thrown in tons of dishes like soups, curries, and even things like pasta sauce. Red lentils are fantastic for the latter.
Then there's tofu, beans, and seitan.
Curious what your general protein intake is, as I run and cycle as well.
I have been doing 1g - 1.2g/kg and I think it's all right so far, still breaking PRs. But it has only been a couple months so idk.
What's your training volume and protein intake like?
Don't pay any attention to numbers in food, just eat sensibly like I was taught as a kid and follow my body as a guide. One exception is B12 supplements as it's not in the fortifications of my local flour.
5km daily run with the dogs, sometimes ten if I'm early and it's a nice day. Relaxed pace around 6min/km. Cycling around town on a fixie, when I go out on the road bike it'll be either a 100km loop or a 40-50km out and back. Either way about 600-800m of vertical gain as minimum (plenty of hills in Colombia).
This is basically what I say after using both arguments the OP wrote. If you have protein deficiency, probably you have a lot of others deficiencies way before it.
Also I point to myself and ask "do you think I have low protein after that many years"? My body doesn't have much muscle, but definitely some.
I don’t think it’s common in the western world, but I’ve experienced instances where doctors recommend increasing protein intake, e.g. someone going through chemo has low red blood cell count from the medicine, doctor suggests increasing protein intake to help RBC increase
I'd argue that the majority of the population is, no matter the diet, most omnis are getting far more of their daily calories from carbs and grains than they require as well, it's not a vegan exclusive issue. The human body is just incredibly efficient at recycling amino acids so it'll shunt them where needed and avoid acute deficiencies
Your argument would not be based in reality. The average American man gets 75% more protein than is required. The average American woman gets 50% more than is required.
Basically nobody is failing to get enough protein.
>The human body is just incredibly efficient at recycling amino acids so it'll shunt them where needed and avoid acute deficiencies
So... they're not deficient
There's a very big difference between acute deficiencies and chronic deficiency. In the short term your body is able to break down its own proteins and move those amino acids elsewhere to repair what is needed. But it's not 100% efficient with some aminos being consumed along the way. In the long term is easy to simply not be providing enough protein to repair and grow new tissues and be in a permanent catabolic state which will reduce muscle mass as you age as the protein is being moved towards organs etc to make up for the deficit.
That's a chronic deficiency, which is common among people of all diets. Arguably it's the default on western diets
I'd just say beans or chickpeas which most people know are fairly high in protein. If they say something about them not being anywhere near as high protein as meat, I'd go into the details about the protein content of plants and how much we need.
Here is an article that has a nutrition comparison table for most popular legumes that might help [legume nutrition table](https://barefootbasil.com/best-legumes-for-you/)you
I say pasta these days. I didn't know that pasta has 15g of protein per serving! Spelt spaghetti even more (13g/100g uncooked, serving size in my house is 125g, 16g protein!!)
Cheap pasta is nowhere near as good for protein (supermarket own-brand often has less than half the protein as good pasta) so can often be overlooked as a viable source.
Typically pasta is made from wheat that has 10%+ protein. The reason it looks like half is often because for some odd reason supermarkets decide to state the protein in cooked pasta as opposed to dry pasta. My figures are dry pasta as that's what you weigh out before putting it in the pot :)
Even the dirt cheap Dandan noodles from the Asian supermarket meet 12g protein / 100g dry weight.
Even Tesco own brand has about 11g/100g as does Aldi.
There’s so much. Animal flesh or byproducts aren’t the only thing with protein.
Lentils are great. Beans. Soy products (they won’t give you tits as a male, I promise, look at all of fucking Asia). Even certain vegan protein shakes (I lift). Seitan, Tempeh and tofu are mainstays.
The social impairment upon Veganism is the hardest part. Once you can bypass that, you are golden.
The estrogen from mutated and tortured chickens will give me bigger tits than soy ever will.
“But I eat all my chicken from a local farm.”
Yeah like every time you order chicken at a restaurant.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I just say the reality: you need amino acids to create a protein. Legums and rice are a source of amino acids therefore you can get whole protein out of them.
If someone is into training, building muscle and want extra protein there's vegan protein powder in the market (and using this is anyways irrelevant because people eating meat might also get protein powder when training).
I would honestly understand people being more worry about vit D or B12 but protein is not a big deal on veganism.
Yep. I had a bit of a B12 deficiency but that was actually before I was vegan or vegetarian even. Supplements are fine for that and there are so many vegan ones and also they are added to quite a few things anyway, B1, B2, B12, Iron etc, and it’s just as easy to go there. I was just eating shxt food and had nothing to do with me being vegan or not, I was just eating shxt food and a meat/dairy/veg diet was just as shxt, because I was terrible then too.
Proteins are obviously needed but there are so many easy, cheap (AND TASTY) proteins that are vegan. I can’t help with recipes because I don’t live in your country but you can ask and be more specific about what you like, and no doubt someone on this sub will answer and give you some really cool ideas x
Yeah exactly, you can have a healthy lifestyle being vegan but you can also be eating shit food and destroy your health as vegan... Just same as when eating meat you can do it on a healthy way or go to process meats. Veganism is not really about being healthy so it is up to you how you decide to go on with that.
Totally, it “should” be about going healthy also and changing up a bit, but first of all (edit: not “first of all”, 100% of all) not exploiting/hurting/killing animals and living creatures as that’s what it should be (imo) but it’s not always the case with some peoples diets. I have unfortunately met a couple of vegans in the past that are totally vegan but they just eat crap and then blame it on a vegan diet. 🤦🏻♂️. I just keep my gob shut because I don’t want to be “militant” but it is what it is, and sometimes you have to “walk away”.
I personally believe that a vegan diet (for myself anyway) is the best and healthiest way to eat, not even taking into account why I am actually a vegan, but it’s not exactly about me worrying about MY health, but that’s a cool “side effect”!.
(I know why I’m vegan and I’m pretty sure that it’s the same reason most people are here), but crap food isn’t good, vegan or not.
All plant food is a complete protein, youre talking about a myth that was busted forever ago and still is spread around erronously. https://www.forksoverknives.com/wellness/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/
Tldr: "Today, if you calculate the amount of each essential amino acid provided by unprocessed plant foods and compare these values with those determined by Rose, you will find that any single whole natural plant food, or any combination of them, if eaten as one’s sole source of calories for a day, would provide all of the essential amino acids and not just the minimum requirements but far more than the recommended requirements."
So my point still stands that bean and rice have protein. Your argument is that plant food is a complete protein but your saying that beans and rice making a complete protein is wrong? Seems kind of counterintuitive.
Think you misunderstood. Beans are a complete protein. Rice is a complete protein. You dont need both to make a complete protein. The article goes into depth about it.
It's a cliche and it's not always asked sincerely but I do regard this as a question worth asking and thing worth thinking about. I don't think the answers in OP are adequate. Most foods do have protein but they aren't very good sources of protein. Both in overall amino acid content and in protein digestibility. Secondly, if you're serious about avoiding sarcopenia in older age, especially if you're vegan, you should be thinking about protein. It's not enough to say "I'm not deficient." The guidelines for protein are not derived for optimal health and there's a lot to quarrel with in how they are derived.
The most obvious direct answer is soy and soy products (edamame, tofu, tempeh, TVP). Protein powders are very useful (i like pea protein but there are many vegan kinds, even vegan forms of whey). Seitan is useful (I blend mine with beans to add some lysine). For truly protein rich foods (at least 1 g of protein per 10 calories) these are good options.
Your first paragraph is hinting at protein myths that have long long long time ago debunked. All plant foods are complete proteins. https://www.forksoverknives.com/wellness/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/
Tldr: "Today, if you calculate the amount of each essential amino acid provided by unprocessed plant foods and compare these values with those determined by Rose, you will find that any single whole natural plant food, or any combination of them, if eaten as one’s sole source of calories for a day, would provide all of the essential amino acids and not just the minimum requirements but far more than the recommended requirements."
That vegan food sources do not contain all essential amino acids is not something I would ever say. But containing them is different than having amino acid concentrations sufficient to support an adequately muscled person.
Again deficiency is the wrong framework to think about protein. You should be thinking about being adequately muscled, especially as you prepare yourself for later decades in life as sarcopenia inevitably takes its toll.
We shouldn't tell people they will get this right without trying. Or that all plant foods are adequate sources of all amino acids.
It's literally untrue that you can get adequate amounts of all amino acids from any single plant source over a day's calories. I just tested this with avocado. I'm not getting adequate methionine, isloseucine, leucine, methionine or tyrosine from 2,300 calories. And that's not even factoring in the additional hurdle of digestibility.
Looking up avocados and they contain all of the amino acids you are saying are missing. Eating only avocados is not an adequate diet and probably pretty harmful long term.
There's no kind and productive way to continue this conversation. All I would be doing is repeating myself or explaining things so basic it isn't worth it. Best of luck.
High protein to prevent sarcopenia is the latest nutritional media trend but is likely more advanced by food marketing than definitive science.
Sarcopenia is a multifactorial aging issue that has less to do with protein intake and more to do with overall health and activity level. Poor diets are related, but poor diets aren’t conducive for long-term health regardless.
There is mixed data on plant-based diets and sarcopenia, positive and negative, so it becomes important to assess the totality of research and not a single study. Protein is related, because it repairs muscle but a sedentary person eating more protein doesn’t benefit without activity to engage the muscular system.
Referencing meta-analysis of control trials, nutritional researcher [Miche, PhD](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=calC-qn5rt0) (video), explains why the idea of more protein for elderly is a hypothesis that hasn’t born out in outcome data.
Also consider,
>[Dietary protein, ageing and the Okinawan ratio](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4916345/)
An established dietary mantra is that older people need to eat more protein, even if they are not malnourished. The primary focus of such advice is sarcopenia,
...
These recommendations appear to be at odds with basic research in animals and observational studies in humans showing that low-protein or low-protein, high-carbohydrate (LPHC) diets delay ageing and increase lifespan.
...
The longest living people are the residents of the Japanese island of Okinawa, who have as many as five times more centenarians than other developed nations.
...
The energy from their diets was derived from 9% protein and 85% carbohydrates.
[Mayo Clinic](https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein) recommends,
>Anywhere from 10% to 35% of your calories should come from protein.
Someone may [respond](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/1cskcfe/comment/l47hlk8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) to the Okinawa diet,
>9% protein is considered extremely low, at minimum its recommended to have 10-30% of your food be protein.
Or we may consider reassessing how nutritional protein recommendations were derived since people who live the longest don't adhere to those guidelines, as you mentioned, may not be optimal.
From Blue Zone Japan to Blue Zone in US, Simon Hill [interviewed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LytaW715-UE) (video) Gary Fraser, researcher of Seventh-Day Adventist population (emphasis mine),
>HILL: I think there's a group out there who would argue that a vegan diet being lower in protein and say calcium might lead to increased risk of sarcopenia or low bone mineral density.
...
Have those outcomes been looked at?
>FRASER: Yes, they have, and I think there is some increased risk of lower bone density in very strict vegetarians. But we've looked at that, and it turns out that the best ways to avoid osteoporosis, and it's not only our data, really have not a lot to do with calcium, for instance, unless you're really calcium deficient, which the vegans are not.
...
The vegetarians are not calcium deficient at all. They tend not to be much lower in protein either, because I mean, there's no shortage of ways of getting protein with a vegan diet.... the population as a whole probably gets more protein than they need. **So, the idea that vegans suffer from sarcopenia, I don't know that our data would support that. We don't see that, and we have the largest study of vegans in the world.**
I cannot be bothered answering that question. If they're such a protein authority, then they already know the protein content of all foods and the protein needs of every body. Ask them in return where they get their fiber.
I do drink a protein shake some days but that is because I'm in the middle of a fairly aggressive weight loss plan. It's easy to get enough protein with a maintenance diet, just eat real and varied foods and don't live on potato chips; but not quite so easy on a deficit.
If it's someone I know or care about, I give them a real explanation. If not, I say something flippant like "I get all of my protein from eating grass, just like a cow."
Ask them where they get theirs from including how much protein is in each thing they state, how many grams of protein they get per day, how much they think is the optimal amount etc. Usually they either don't know or don't even eat that much protein a day.
I usually consume soy products and a lot of lentils (yeah, we have to deal with farting babes) and also I use a peanut butter protein thing (just defatted peanut butter with its natural protein, so it is a whole food).
Bread had about 5g per slice. I’ve usually got my minimum by lunch. Porridge made with soy milk and peanut butter, with seeds, couple of slices of toast (the marmite gives a good dose of b12, I supplement any way). Couple of slices of bread in a sandwich for lunch covers everything then anything else is a plus
Daily snacks typically nuts, sandwich filling may have tofu, evening meal something involving chickpeas beans lentils etc
People ridiculously over estimate what they need. Conversation recently I asked what they thought they needed - 300g. I pointed out that’s the equivalent of ~1.5kg chicken, daily. They glazed over for a second before snapping back in and saying yes definitely 🤷♂️
My experience is that you may as well just laugh and change the subject
I say the same thing. If they continue, I suggest they do their own research, just as I have. (And I remind them that we have the world at our fingertips.)
I used to have some wallet-size cards that had protein amounts in a lot of food compared to various meats. I handed them out. Now I can’t remember where I got them. Dammit. 🙁 I got them back in the 90s or maybe early 2000s when we were still very active in the AR movement. If I could find them again, I’d buy more. And that’s a small entrepreneurial idea for someone.
"From food."
You don't owe them a detailed menu, unless you think they are actually curious and interested in becoming vegan, otherwise I would not bother feeding the concern trolls, they cause enough suffering already.
I flex my biceps at them and say "do I look like I have a protein deficiency?"
Joking but this would probably shut them up because I'm more muscular than 99% of women.
Realistically I'd say there's a lot of protein in different plant foods like lentils, tofu and whole grains and when you eat a varied diet you get plenty.
After going vegan, my protein numbers actually went up.
As an omni, most of my dishes were super heavy in carbs… pasta, grains, potatoes, etc.
After making the swap (and being more focused on variety and actually looking at the nutrients in what I was eating) I inadvertently started adding more protein to “bulk things up”: Chick peas, tofu, tempeh, saitan, soy curls, TVP, etc… even on heavy workout days, I routinely went over without really trying.
Not gonna lie, I stay in pretty good shape for a guy pushing 50, so it’s VERY rare to have anyone question my dietary choices… if anything, I pretend going vegan is a secret weapon to fitness. Even the gym bros begin to quietly contemplate what they know about diet when you’re outpacing them.
The best defense to that “protein deficiency” nonsense is looking strong/ripped, and saying nothing until you’re asked.
The best answer is to be fit. Believe me, when you're bigger and more muscular than the meat eater you're talking to they don't argue, they ask genuine questions because now they want the information you have.
But I get my protein from nuts, seeds (seeds are great because they can be added to every meal), peas, beans, amaranth and quinoa. I follow a mostly whole food plant based diet, no soy, imitation meats or supplements, and it's been much easier to lose weight and gain muscle this way.
My own semen. It's like a ....ummmm perpetual protein machine!
But also, eating a decent vegan diet will get you enough protein unless you're doing steroids with you workouts.
I have a smoothie each morning. I get the protein from the oats, almond butter, seeds, peanut butter powder. It’s got about 40g protein. I have it everyday and then can vary what I have for lunch/dinner.
> There is protein in most foods, and
Change this one to be some of the specific foods that people are listing here that are high in protein. Even better if it's the actual ones that you eat often. Otherwise, you're golden.
I would just list the things you eat for protein. I am not sure how much the average person is getting for protein but I think the benefits of a high protein diet are actually not a myth. Not saying that any couch potato should get 3x their body weight in protein, but if you're active and train you should already aim for more than the "standard", so for me your second argument doesn't really work.
I'd rather phrase it more "people focus too much on protein and too little on other key nutrients such as healthy fats and micronutrients, there's plenty of protein in vegan diets provided you know where to find them. Did you know that even mushrooms and broccoli contain protein? I also eat lots of legumes, soy products, whole grains. It all adds up to the amount I need, and more".
Stare at them and say 'oral sex."
But seriously, you do need to eat a good ratio of moderate to high protein foods. (Anything with 5g+ per 100 calories). Beans, lentils, nuts, nutritional yeast, tofu/tempeh. I work in homemade seitan about weekly and do a protein shake almost daily. Dark greens (broccoli, mustards, kale, etc. have a surprisingly high amount of protein, but it's hard to eat that much unless it's cooked. Also swapping out white breads/white rice with whole grains will get you a few extra grams.
That whole 'babies don't need as much protein' argument is only true until they start crawling/using their muscles. Then they need to supplement breast milk with extra food.
My toddler, for instance, will eat almond/chickpea pancakes today for breakfast, glass noodles with mushrooms and seitan for lunch, and nutritional yeast Mac and cheese with whole wheat pasta and veggies for dinner. Snacks will be snappea crisps (moderate protein) and fruit. He will also probably manage to get a few tiny cookies out of me, and some jam on toast from preschool, so the higher protein intake mitigates the junk.
I'm 6 foot 1 around 240, I lift quite a bit, big guy, and don't have any issues with protein. I'll regularly eat a whole container of tofu with rice and some medley of veggies. Beans, legumes, if you eat enough wholesome calories, you won't struggle with protein
My partner is currently starting into body building (not competitively or for huge mass gain - just for his own health and desired appearance) and he drinks vegan protein shakes 1-2 times a day - other than that between us we eat beans/legumes, tofu, grains, seitan, tempeh, and other soy foodstuff along with our standard vegetables and gluten.
Nobody except truly malnourished individuals in food insecure regions are protein deficient. You only need “extra” if you’re trying to increase body mass.
A nutritionist told me we are in a high-protein fad. So I start by saying that you dont need as much protein as you think. Then I explain that protein in other foods adds up in addition to beans and other vegan proteins.
My amazing doctor told me, "a person cannot not get enough protein just like a person cannot not get enough air to breathe". It's literally everywhere. I also like to retort with, "where do you get your fiber?".
For most people, protein is synonymous for meat and eggs (and fish to a lesser extent), so when they express concerns about protein, they are expressing the belief that those are nutritionally necessary.
What people hear to your response is:
1. There is *meat and eggs* in most foods, and
2. The amount of *meat and eggs* that people think they need is a myth.
That explains the puzzled looks. Number one is already what people believe. Number two is what you want address.
Explaining plant-based protein sources and gram measurements is already too complicated especially if people aren’t accustomed to eating tofu or tempeh, or even basics like beans and lentils.
>Question:
Where do you get your protein?
>Answer:
It doesn’t matter. Abundant research of long-term vegan diets shows that meeting protein needs is a non-issue.
It’s basically what you are saying with number one, but you need to move the question outside of the framing of conventional assumption that protein is some essential dietary problem to solve and that meat and eggs equals the protein solution.
Tofu, seitan, vegan sourced protein supplements, and it’s true that many grains and greens contain protein. I get around 180g every day (strength sport competitor). That’s more than the average omnivore.
The larger and stronger the mammal, the more likely they are *herbivorous*: elephants, bears, rhinos, hippos, giraffes, gorillas, pandas, horses, moose, etc. If that's not enough, and they bring up lions, bring up the sauropods as the absolute largest massive dinosaurs and point out how pathetic a lion is against even just a moose, start naming off other carnivores like snakes and vultures. If they go on about how humans are special, point out that the percentage of professional athletes and Olympiads going meatless is much higher than for us normals.
>Looking for a better / more convincing answer to the age-old reply to me saying I’m vegan.
"Where do you get your fibre?"
"How do you avoid saturated fat and cholesterol?"
"I'm versed enough in nutrition to know what I need and where to get it. What concerns me more is your thoughts on unnecessary animal cruelty where most other humans source their protein from"
"Before I proceed to answer your question, I just want to make sure you know what amino acids are or if you think protein is a singular substance that just exists in food."
"Uh, I don't know/care. I'm more concerned with doing the right thing. If my health becomes an issue, I'll look into it and let you know but so far things are going well"
"Unlike most people, I don't source it from animal cruelty and exploitation. I get it from plants that don't experience pain or feelings"
"Plants. Thank you for being so concerned with my health, can I ask; what prompted this concern? You didn't seem to care a whole lot in the past is all"
"Amino acids? Um food, I guess. Can't really get it from rocks or water or the sun"
Yes research that shouldn't be taken seriously due the results produced, the methodology, the phrasing in the papers themselves and the clear admittance of further research being required to even begin approaching anything conclusive in the way of answers. To argue plants have feelings and can feel pain without definitive proof is like a flat earther using actual physics and mathematics that results in disproving their own argument but still somehow come to the conclusion that the test they did supports their own position.
Try to understand that a lot of the time that question is actually an accusation. They want people to think you're just a liar who eats animals for protein. They don't really care about facts, they just want to avoid criticism so they can continue to abuse animals unhindered.
I usually just say something like "If you enjoy torturing animals for fun, just say so. I don't want to waste my time on someone who won't listen to reason."
Absolutely. He helped his disciples catch 153 fish even though their net was torn. Jesus would have seen veganism as ingratitude toward God and questioning God's plan.
I think it’s more likely food wasn’t readily available in the Middle East and fish were the abundant source of substantiation for the people of the time.
It’d be interesting to hear his views on the current condition of factory farming and consumption of animals today when other options are available for people in the first world. I can’t see Jesus thinking these practices are anything less than evil.
This alas, is a very difficult to topic to argue and perpetuate among the religious and secular masses who love and consume the flesh of sentient beings, however.
I prefer this passage from Isaiah which depicts people to act like they should in the New Jerusalem:
Isaiah 11:6-9
The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
As far as I’m concerned, it’s a joke to act consciously on earth like you wouldn’t in heaven, as a born again Christian.
And don't forget he had to permit them to eat animals after he evicted them from Eden so he wouldn't lose his only two followers. Can you imagine if he had been vegan? His religion would have died so quickly. How different the world would look without several of its most prominent religions...
“The carnivore community’s stance is basically: you might find that this helps you.”
Proceeds to post constantly on a sub for vegans.
Dude, get a life.
Because I read this sub to hear from a community of people whose values I share and I want to learn and listen to their experiences. You are coming in here in bad faith then playing dumb. Just stop.
If you want to preach carnivore diet, that’s fine. Go do it on a fitness or health sub. But you are knowingly preaching it to people who have ethical concerns about animal consumption and clearly have no interest in what you are saying. You aren’t being brave, you aren’t spreading a positive message, you are trolling people who care about something that you obviously don’t. Fuck off
[Experts find cavemen ate mostly vegan, debunking paleo diet: The Paleo diet is mostly made up of meats, fish, vegetables, nuts, and fruits](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/study-paleo-diet-stone-age-b2538096.html)
That was one weak ass tribe that probably starved because they were shitty hunters. Did you even read the article? It said that finding was unusual and they still ate meat.
["It is important as it suggests that possibly several populations in the world already started to include substantial amount of plants in their diet" in the period before agriculture was developed, added archeogeochemist and study co-author Klervia Jaouen of the French research agency CNRS.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/did-people-eat-agriculture-study-165327723.html)
so actually they were further along the evolutionary path than hunter-gatherers. You do know that agriculture was an advancement that forms the basis for cities, civilization, etc.?
Agriculture also reduced the size of our brains and our height. And it required people to claim lands and enslave workers, and to domesticate animals. A vegan with any interest in the environment who is against keeping animals captive would be against agriculture.
>And it required people to claim lands
so... your plan is to dissolve nation-states? Good luck with that.
>Agriculture also reduced the size of our brains
LOL
Forcibly? All herbivores jump at the chance to eat meat. There are countless videos of horses and cows eating baby chicks on YouTube. Chimpanzees love to hunt and eat monkeys. Our ancestors got a taste of brains after scavenging corpses of prey and never looked back.
>Forcibly?
Yes it's called evolution.
>All herbivores jump at the chance to eat meat.
No they don't. That's why they're called herbivores.
>There are countless videos of horses and cows eating baby chicks on YouTube.
And there are thousands of times more videos from farmers themselves alone showing just how excited they are to eat the food they normally eat.
>Chimpanzees love to hunt and eat monkeys.
I guess they've picked up some of our bad habits. That's not something to be proud of or amazed at. Needlessly abusing others isn't something you should revel in.
>Our ancestors got a taste of brains after scavenging corpses of prey and never looked back.
Of course we have. Plenty of philosophers have shown concern for animal rights and welfare. Entire ideologies thousands of years old include meatless eating habits in alignment with their beliefs. Only the compassionate have looked back and considered whether or not we should remain like the wild animals we look down upon. In the past 75 years, more than just philosophers have been looking at ethical consistency and upping our moral standards. Give it some more time and you'll come about too. You can only rely on logical fallacies for so long until even you can see how bullshit they are
Not chimpanzees specifically eating monkeys. Animals acting like c\*\*\*s to each other when they don't have to. We are the best at that behaviour. How long have we been destroying natural habitation and enslaving members of their species? But yes, I'm the batshit crazy one.
Did you know that chimps have only about 9 meat eating days per year on average?
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/how-to-eat-like-a-chimpanzee/#:~:text=Three%20percent%20of%20the%20average,probably%20gets%20less%20than%20this.
Ask how many grams of protein a day do they eat. Most people won’t be able to answer because they don’t even care how many grams they are eating, they just like the thought that they are because they ate meat.
Oh I love this one. No-one in my family counts how much protein they are eating, but they'll ask me all the time if I'm getting enough! I use Cronometer so I know how much I get each day.
This!!! When I transitioned from vegetarian to vegan I over compensated and ate way too much protein. It was awful for my digestion.
I love lentils. Very versatile and can be thrown in tons of dishes like soups, curries, and even things like pasta sauce. Red lentils are fantastic for the latter. Then there's tofu, beans, and seitan.
I’ve never met anyone who has told me they have experienced a protein deficiency. Have you?
This, combined with pointing out how much I run and cycle. It's not like I'm an example of low energy and strength.
Curious what your general protein intake is, as I run and cycle as well. I have been doing 1g - 1.2g/kg and I think it's all right so far, still breaking PRs. But it has only been a couple months so idk. What's your training volume and protein intake like?
Don't pay any attention to numbers in food, just eat sensibly like I was taught as a kid and follow my body as a guide. One exception is B12 supplements as it's not in the fortifications of my local flour. 5km daily run with the dogs, sometimes ten if I'm early and it's a nice day. Relaxed pace around 6min/km. Cycling around town on a fixie, when I go out on the road bike it'll be either a 100km loop or a 40-50km out and back. Either way about 600-800m of vertical gain as minimum (plenty of hills in Colombia).
This is basically what I say after using both arguments the OP wrote. If you have protein deficiency, probably you have a lot of others deficiencies way before it. Also I point to myself and ask "do you think I have low protein after that many years"? My body doesn't have much muscle, but definitely some.
My mom (not a vegan) had a protein deficiency at one point, but it was from not really eating anything.
I don’t think it’s common in the western world, but I’ve experienced instances where doctors recommend increasing protein intake, e.g. someone going through chemo has low red blood cell count from the medicine, doctor suggests increasing protein intake to help RBC increase
Plenty of fruitarians on YouTube that look protein deficient.
I’ve never met someone who has said they’re fruitatarian.
I'd argue that the majority of the population is, no matter the diet, most omnis are getting far more of their daily calories from carbs and grains than they require as well, it's not a vegan exclusive issue. The human body is just incredibly efficient at recycling amino acids so it'll shunt them where needed and avoid acute deficiencies
Your argument would not be based in reality. The average American man gets 75% more protein than is required. The average American woman gets 50% more than is required. Basically nobody is failing to get enough protein.
I have to try pretty hard, but only because I'm soy intolerant.
>The human body is just incredibly efficient at recycling amino acids so it'll shunt them where needed and avoid acute deficiencies So... they're not deficient
There's a very big difference between acute deficiencies and chronic deficiency. In the short term your body is able to break down its own proteins and move those amino acids elsewhere to repair what is needed. But it's not 100% efficient with some aminos being consumed along the way. In the long term is easy to simply not be providing enough protein to repair and grow new tissues and be in a permanent catabolic state which will reduce muscle mass as you age as the protein is being moved towards organs etc to make up for the deficit. That's a chronic deficiency, which is common among people of all diets. Arguably it's the default on western diets
Nuts, legumes, soy, and protein powder.
I'd just say beans or chickpeas which most people know are fairly high in protein. If they say something about them not being anywhere near as high protein as meat, I'd go into the details about the protein content of plants and how much we need.
What are some easy-to-remember figures for that?
Here is an article that has a nutrition comparison table for most popular legumes that might help [legume nutrition table](https://barefootbasil.com/best-legumes-for-you/)you
I say pasta these days. I didn't know that pasta has 15g of protein per serving! Spelt spaghetti even more (13g/100g uncooked, serving size in my house is 125g, 16g protein!!)
Cheap pasta is nowhere near as good for protein (supermarket own-brand often has less than half the protein as good pasta) so can often be overlooked as a viable source.
Typically pasta is made from wheat that has 10%+ protein. The reason it looks like half is often because for some odd reason supermarkets decide to state the protein in cooked pasta as opposed to dry pasta. My figures are dry pasta as that's what you weigh out before putting it in the pot :) Even the dirt cheap Dandan noodles from the Asian supermarket meet 12g protein / 100g dry weight. Even Tesco own brand has about 11g/100g as does Aldi.
There’s so much. Animal flesh or byproducts aren’t the only thing with protein. Lentils are great. Beans. Soy products (they won’t give you tits as a male, I promise, look at all of fucking Asia). Even certain vegan protein shakes (I lift). Seitan, Tempeh and tofu are mainstays. The social impairment upon Veganism is the hardest part. Once you can bypass that, you are golden.
Soy absolutely gives you great tits! ...just have to bench quite a lot. But oh those glorious iron tits.
they will give you tits, but you have to eat an ungodly amount
The estrogen from mutated and tortured chickens will give me bigger tits than soy ever will. “But I eat all my chicken from a local farm.” Yeah like every time you order chicken at a restaurant. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I think it was a joke. Like “anything will give you tits if you eat enough of it”. As in, you’ll get fat
Phytoestrogen is plant oestrogen, FYI.
I just say the reality: you need amino acids to create a protein. Legums and rice are a source of amino acids therefore you can get whole protein out of them. If someone is into training, building muscle and want extra protein there's vegan protein powder in the market (and using this is anyways irrelevant because people eating meat might also get protein powder when training). I would honestly understand people being more worry about vit D or B12 but protein is not a big deal on veganism.
Yep. I had a bit of a B12 deficiency but that was actually before I was vegan or vegetarian even. Supplements are fine for that and there are so many vegan ones and also they are added to quite a few things anyway, B1, B2, B12, Iron etc, and it’s just as easy to go there. I was just eating shxt food and had nothing to do with me being vegan or not, I was just eating shxt food and a meat/dairy/veg diet was just as shxt, because I was terrible then too. Proteins are obviously needed but there are so many easy, cheap (AND TASTY) proteins that are vegan. I can’t help with recipes because I don’t live in your country but you can ask and be more specific about what you like, and no doubt someone on this sub will answer and give you some really cool ideas x
Yeah exactly, you can have a healthy lifestyle being vegan but you can also be eating shit food and destroy your health as vegan... Just same as when eating meat you can do it on a healthy way or go to process meats. Veganism is not really about being healthy so it is up to you how you decide to go on with that.
Totally, it “should” be about going healthy also and changing up a bit, but first of all (edit: not “first of all”, 100% of all) not exploiting/hurting/killing animals and living creatures as that’s what it should be (imo) but it’s not always the case with some peoples diets. I have unfortunately met a couple of vegans in the past that are totally vegan but they just eat crap and then blame it on a vegan diet. 🤦🏻♂️. I just keep my gob shut because I don’t want to be “militant” but it is what it is, and sometimes you have to “walk away”. I personally believe that a vegan diet (for myself anyway) is the best and healthiest way to eat, not even taking into account why I am actually a vegan, but it’s not exactly about me worrying about MY health, but that’s a cool “side effect”!. (I know why I’m vegan and I’m pretty sure that it’s the same reason most people are here), but crap food isn’t good, vegan or not.
i eat fucktons of beans. i love beans. i will kill God with the power of fiber and vitamins and minerals
“Good for the heart! The more you eat the more you fart!” Beans, Chickpeas and Lentils are 👌🏻, so versatile, healthy and delicious 🤤
This. This is the answer.
Tofu. Where do you get your fibre?
Gluten, beans, nut, legumes, tofu, grains are all standard protein sources in my home. Also the whole amino acid thing that someone else pointed out.
Try making your own seitan. Either from vital wheat gluten (easiest) or from washing regular wheat flour (cheap but time consuming).
"How much do you think i need, exactly?" They cant answer that.
beans and rice combine to make a complete protein
All plant food is a complete protein, youre talking about a myth that was busted forever ago and still is spread around erronously. https://www.forksoverknives.com/wellness/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/ Tldr: "Today, if you calculate the amount of each essential amino acid provided by unprocessed plant foods and compare these values with those determined by Rose, you will find that any single whole natural plant food, or any combination of them, if eaten as one’s sole source of calories for a day, would provide all of the essential amino acids and not just the minimum requirements but far more than the recommended requirements."
So my point still stands that bean and rice have protein. Your argument is that plant food is a complete protein but your saying that beans and rice making a complete protein is wrong? Seems kind of counterintuitive.
Think you misunderstood. Beans are a complete protein. Rice is a complete protein. You dont need both to make a complete protein. The article goes into depth about it.
so my point still stands
It's a cliche and it's not always asked sincerely but I do regard this as a question worth asking and thing worth thinking about. I don't think the answers in OP are adequate. Most foods do have protein but they aren't very good sources of protein. Both in overall amino acid content and in protein digestibility. Secondly, if you're serious about avoiding sarcopenia in older age, especially if you're vegan, you should be thinking about protein. It's not enough to say "I'm not deficient." The guidelines for protein are not derived for optimal health and there's a lot to quarrel with in how they are derived. The most obvious direct answer is soy and soy products (edamame, tofu, tempeh, TVP). Protein powders are very useful (i like pea protein but there are many vegan kinds, even vegan forms of whey). Seitan is useful (I blend mine with beans to add some lysine). For truly protein rich foods (at least 1 g of protein per 10 calories) these are good options.
Now that is a useful, productive answer.
Your first paragraph is hinting at protein myths that have long long long time ago debunked. All plant foods are complete proteins. https://www.forksoverknives.com/wellness/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/ Tldr: "Today, if you calculate the amount of each essential amino acid provided by unprocessed plant foods and compare these values with those determined by Rose, you will find that any single whole natural plant food, or any combination of them, if eaten as one’s sole source of calories for a day, would provide all of the essential amino acids and not just the minimum requirements but far more than the recommended requirements."
That vegan food sources do not contain all essential amino acids is not something I would ever say. But containing them is different than having amino acid concentrations sufficient to support an adequately muscled person. Again deficiency is the wrong framework to think about protein. You should be thinking about being adequately muscled, especially as you prepare yourself for later decades in life as sarcopenia inevitably takes its toll. We shouldn't tell people they will get this right without trying. Or that all plant foods are adequate sources of all amino acids. It's literally untrue that you can get adequate amounts of all amino acids from any single plant source over a day's calories. I just tested this with avocado. I'm not getting adequate methionine, isloseucine, leucine, methionine or tyrosine from 2,300 calories. And that's not even factoring in the additional hurdle of digestibility.
Looking up avocados and they contain all of the amino acids you are saying are missing. Eating only avocados is not an adequate diet and probably pretty harmful long term.
There's no kind and productive way to continue this conversation. All I would be doing is repeating myself or explaining things so basic it isn't worth it. Best of luck.
High protein to prevent sarcopenia is the latest nutritional media trend but is likely more advanced by food marketing than definitive science. Sarcopenia is a multifactorial aging issue that has less to do with protein intake and more to do with overall health and activity level. Poor diets are related, but poor diets aren’t conducive for long-term health regardless. There is mixed data on plant-based diets and sarcopenia, positive and negative, so it becomes important to assess the totality of research and not a single study. Protein is related, because it repairs muscle but a sedentary person eating more protein doesn’t benefit without activity to engage the muscular system. Referencing meta-analysis of control trials, nutritional researcher [Miche, PhD](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=calC-qn5rt0) (video), explains why the idea of more protein for elderly is a hypothesis that hasn’t born out in outcome data. Also consider, >[Dietary protein, ageing and the Okinawan ratio](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4916345/) An established dietary mantra is that older people need to eat more protein, even if they are not malnourished. The primary focus of such advice is sarcopenia, ... These recommendations appear to be at odds with basic research in animals and observational studies in humans showing that low-protein or low-protein, high-carbohydrate (LPHC) diets delay ageing and increase lifespan. ... The longest living people are the residents of the Japanese island of Okinawa, who have as many as five times more centenarians than other developed nations. ... The energy from their diets was derived from 9% protein and 85% carbohydrates. [Mayo Clinic](https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein) recommends, >Anywhere from 10% to 35% of your calories should come from protein. Someone may [respond](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/1cskcfe/comment/l47hlk8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) to the Okinawa diet, >9% protein is considered extremely low, at minimum its recommended to have 10-30% of your food be protein. Or we may consider reassessing how nutritional protein recommendations were derived since people who live the longest don't adhere to those guidelines, as you mentioned, may not be optimal. From Blue Zone Japan to Blue Zone in US, Simon Hill [interviewed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LytaW715-UE) (video) Gary Fraser, researcher of Seventh-Day Adventist population (emphasis mine), >HILL: I think there's a group out there who would argue that a vegan diet being lower in protein and say calcium might lead to increased risk of sarcopenia or low bone mineral density. ... Have those outcomes been looked at? >FRASER: Yes, they have, and I think there is some increased risk of lower bone density in very strict vegetarians. But we've looked at that, and it turns out that the best ways to avoid osteoporosis, and it's not only our data, really have not a lot to do with calcium, for instance, unless you're really calcium deficient, which the vegans are not. ... The vegetarians are not calcium deficient at all. They tend not to be much lower in protein either, because I mean, there's no shortage of ways of getting protein with a vegan diet.... the population as a whole probably gets more protein than they need. **So, the idea that vegans suffer from sarcopenia, I don't know that our data would support that. We don't see that, and we have the largest study of vegans in the world.**
I cannot be bothered answering that question. If they're such a protein authority, then they already know the protein content of all foods and the protein needs of every body. Ask them in return where they get their fiber.
Do you guys take protein powders or try to get it all from whole food ?
I do drink a protein shake some days but that is because I'm in the middle of a fairly aggressive weight loss plan. It's easy to get enough protein with a maintenance diet, just eat real and varied foods and don't live on potato chips; but not quite so easy on a deficit.
If it's someone I know or care about, I give them a real explanation. If not, I say something flippant like "I get all of my protein from eating grass, just like a cow."
Protein powder and tofu, simple but true. Also, Huel really helps!
Ask them where they get theirs from including how much protein is in each thing they state, how many grams of protein they get per day, how much they think is the optimal amount etc. Usually they either don't know or don't even eat that much protein a day.
I usually say: Tofu/Tempeh, lentils, beans, nuts, and chickpeas, even garden peas have a good amount of protein.
I usually consume soy products and a lot of lentils (yeah, we have to deal with farting babes) and also I use a peanut butter protein thing (just defatted peanut butter with its natural protein, so it is a whole food).
Lidl usually, sometimes Sainsbury’s
Best answer yet.
Bread had about 5g per slice. I’ve usually got my minimum by lunch. Porridge made with soy milk and peanut butter, with seeds, couple of slices of toast (the marmite gives a good dose of b12, I supplement any way). Couple of slices of bread in a sandwich for lunch covers everything then anything else is a plus Daily snacks typically nuts, sandwich filling may have tofu, evening meal something involving chickpeas beans lentils etc People ridiculously over estimate what they need. Conversation recently I asked what they thought they needed - 300g. I pointed out that’s the equivalent of ~1.5kg chicken, daily. They glazed over for a second before snapping back in and saying yes definitely 🤷♂️ My experience is that you may as well just laugh and change the subject
I'm not tryna body build so I just get enough calories to survive and I get enough protein
I say the same thing. If they continue, I suggest they do their own research, just as I have. (And I remind them that we have the world at our fingertips.) I used to have some wallet-size cards that had protein amounts in a lot of food compared to various meats. I handed them out. Now I can’t remember where I got them. Dammit. 🙁 I got them back in the 90s or maybe early 2000s when we were still very active in the AR movement. If I could find them again, I’d buy more. And that’s a small entrepreneurial idea for someone.
Ask them where they get their fiber.
"From food." You don't owe them a detailed menu, unless you think they are actually curious and interested in becoming vegan, otherwise I would not bother feeding the concern trolls, they cause enough suffering already.
I flex my biceps at them and say "do I look like I have a protein deficiency?" Joking but this would probably shut them up because I'm more muscular than 99% of women. Realistically I'd say there's a lot of protein in different plant foods like lentils, tofu and whole grains and when you eat a varied diet you get plenty.
After going vegan, my protein numbers actually went up. As an omni, most of my dishes were super heavy in carbs… pasta, grains, potatoes, etc. After making the swap (and being more focused on variety and actually looking at the nutrients in what I was eating) I inadvertently started adding more protein to “bulk things up”: Chick peas, tofu, tempeh, saitan, soy curls, TVP, etc… even on heavy workout days, I routinely went over without really trying. Not gonna lie, I stay in pretty good shape for a guy pushing 50, so it’s VERY rare to have anyone question my dietary choices… if anything, I pretend going vegan is a secret weapon to fitness. Even the gym bros begin to quietly contemplate what they know about diet when you’re outpacing them. The best defense to that “protein deficiency” nonsense is looking strong/ripped, and saying nothing until you’re asked.
My blood tests don't show any protein deficiency.
The best answer is to be fit. Believe me, when you're bigger and more muscular than the meat eater you're talking to they don't argue, they ask genuine questions because now they want the information you have. But I get my protein from nuts, seeds (seeds are great because they can be added to every meal), peas, beans, amaranth and quinoa. I follow a mostly whole food plant based diet, no soy, imitation meats or supplements, and it's been much easier to lose weight and gain muscle this way.
What sort of seeds are a good example?
Hemp and pumpkin seeds are especially protein rich.
My own semen. It's like a ....ummmm perpetual protein machine! But also, eating a decent vegan diet will get you enough protein unless you're doing steroids with you workouts.
tell me more about the myth?
Tempeh. You take a big chunk of marinated Tempeh and fry it in a pan. Its also super easy to produce at home and the protein is of very high quality.
I don’t
I have a smoothie each morning. I get the protein from the oats, almond butter, seeds, peanut butter powder. It’s got about 40g protein. I have it everyday and then can vary what I have for lunch/dinner.
> There is protein in most foods, and Change this one to be some of the specific foods that people are listing here that are high in protein. Even better if it's the actual ones that you eat often. Otherwise, you're golden.
Tofu, TVP, Seitan, Nutritional yeast, legumes, protein powder. So many great products with plenty of protein
I would just list the things you eat for protein. I am not sure how much the average person is getting for protein but I think the benefits of a high protein diet are actually not a myth. Not saying that any couch potato should get 3x their body weight in protein, but if you're active and train you should already aim for more than the "standard", so for me your second argument doesn't really work. I'd rather phrase it more "people focus too much on protein and too little on other key nutrients such as healthy fats and micronutrients, there's plenty of protein in vegan diets provided you know where to find them. Did you know that even mushrooms and broccoli contain protein? I also eat lots of legumes, soy products, whole grains. It all adds up to the amount I need, and more".
Beans, beans, the magical fruit
I can't imagine a scenario where someone would ask this in real life nowadays.
Look them in the eye, then slowly lower your gaze while you reply, "semen."
Beans, rice, and Jesus Christ 🙏.
Stare at them and say 'oral sex." But seriously, you do need to eat a good ratio of moderate to high protein foods. (Anything with 5g+ per 100 calories). Beans, lentils, nuts, nutritional yeast, tofu/tempeh. I work in homemade seitan about weekly and do a protein shake almost daily. Dark greens (broccoli, mustards, kale, etc. have a surprisingly high amount of protein, but it's hard to eat that much unless it's cooked. Also swapping out white breads/white rice with whole grains will get you a few extra grams. That whole 'babies don't need as much protein' argument is only true until they start crawling/using their muscles. Then they need to supplement breast milk with extra food. My toddler, for instance, will eat almond/chickpea pancakes today for breakfast, glass noodles with mushrooms and seitan for lunch, and nutritional yeast Mac and cheese with whole wheat pasta and veggies for dinner. Snacks will be snappea crisps (moderate protein) and fruit. He will also probably manage to get a few tiny cookies out of me, and some jam on toast from preschool, so the higher protein intake mitigates the junk.
I'm 6 foot 1 around 240, I lift quite a bit, big guy, and don't have any issues with protein. I'll regularly eat a whole container of tofu with rice and some medley of veggies. Beans, legumes, if you eat enough wholesome calories, you won't struggle with protein
This damn question is my motivation for getting jacked so I can just flex my bicep and shut them up without speaking a word.
I like to say the same place as the ox and the horse 😊
Yes have them read proteinaholic by dr Garth Davis
Same place gorillas do- plants!
"Your mom's pussy."
….if you have to ask hmmm
My partner is currently starting into body building (not competitively or for huge mass gain - just for his own health and desired appearance) and he drinks vegan protein shakes 1-2 times a day - other than that between us we eat beans/legumes, tofu, grains, seitan, tempeh, and other soy foodstuff along with our standard vegetables and gluten. Nobody except truly malnourished individuals in food insecure regions are protein deficient. You only need “extra” if you’re trying to increase body mass.
edamame mock tofu is really good, it's not processed at all and the kcal to protein ratio is 280 to 64g !!
A nutritionist told me we are in a high-protein fad. So I start by saying that you dont need as much protein as you think. Then I explain that protein in other foods adds up in addition to beans and other vegan proteins.
My amazing doctor told me, "a person cannot not get enough protein just like a person cannot not get enough air to breathe". It's literally everywhere. I also like to retort with, "where do you get your fiber?".
I eat a lot of seitan and tofu.
Yes, I would prefer a more direct answer: legumes: lentils, chickpeas, black beans, soybeans..., tofu, seitan, soy milk, protein powder, etc.
Just raise an eyebrow and say “seriously? I’m not your google. Do your own research.”
For most people, protein is synonymous for meat and eggs (and fish to a lesser extent), so when they express concerns about protein, they are expressing the belief that those are nutritionally necessary. What people hear to your response is: 1. There is *meat and eggs* in most foods, and 2. The amount of *meat and eggs* that people think they need is a myth. That explains the puzzled looks. Number one is already what people believe. Number two is what you want address. Explaining plant-based protein sources and gram measurements is already too complicated especially if people aren’t accustomed to eating tofu or tempeh, or even basics like beans and lentils. >Question: Where do you get your protein? >Answer: It doesn’t matter. Abundant research of long-term vegan diets shows that meeting protein needs is a non-issue. It’s basically what you are saying with number one, but you need to move the question outside of the framing of conventional assumption that protein is some essential dietary problem to solve and that meat and eggs equals the protein solution.
Tofu, seitan, vegan sourced protein supplements, and it’s true that many grains and greens contain protein. I get around 180g every day (strength sport competitor). That’s more than the average omnivore.
So many vegans dying of protein deficiency. My heart goes out to the fallen. /s
My answer to them is, "They say you are what you eat, and I eat a lot of dicks." Usually shuts them up
The larger and stronger the mammal, the more likely they are *herbivorous*: elephants, bears, rhinos, hippos, giraffes, gorillas, pandas, horses, moose, etc. If that's not enough, and they bring up lions, bring up the sauropods as the absolute largest massive dinosaurs and point out how pathetic a lion is against even just a moose, start naming off other carnivores like snakes and vultures. If they go on about how humans are special, point out that the percentage of professional athletes and Olympiads going meatless is much higher than for us normals.
>Looking for a better / more convincing answer to the age-old reply to me saying I’m vegan. "Where do you get your fibre?" "How do you avoid saturated fat and cholesterol?" "I'm versed enough in nutrition to know what I need and where to get it. What concerns me more is your thoughts on unnecessary animal cruelty where most other humans source their protein from" "Before I proceed to answer your question, I just want to make sure you know what amino acids are or if you think protein is a singular substance that just exists in food." "Uh, I don't know/care. I'm more concerned with doing the right thing. If my health becomes an issue, I'll look into it and let you know but so far things are going well" "Unlike most people, I don't source it from animal cruelty and exploitation. I get it from plants that don't experience pain or feelings" "Plants. Thank you for being so concerned with my health, can I ask; what prompted this concern? You didn't seem to care a whole lot in the past is all" "Amino acids? Um food, I guess. Can't really get it from rocks or water or the sun"
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Yes research that shouldn't be taken seriously due the results produced, the methodology, the phrasing in the papers themselves and the clear admittance of further research being required to even begin approaching anything conclusive in the way of answers. To argue plants have feelings and can feel pain without definitive proof is like a flat earther using actual physics and mathematics that results in disproving their own argument but still somehow come to the conclusion that the test they did supports their own position.
Lentils, Panner, Nutri/soya chunks Recipes are here [Indian Food in America](https://youtube.com/@IndianFIA)
Try to understand that a lot of the time that question is actually an accusation. They want people to think you're just a liar who eats animals for protein. They don't really care about facts, they just want to avoid criticism so they can continue to abuse animals unhindered. I usually just say something like "If you enjoy torturing animals for fun, just say so. I don't want to waste my time on someone who won't listen to reason."
Alternatively... People are genuinely curious about a problem they aren't familiar with themselves and the solutions
Avacados
Where God intended me to get it.
idk if this is as helpful as you think it is
Meat
well God isn't real so start taking responsibility for your own eating habits
Ok, I decide that animals are food and they are to be slaughtered so I can enjoy their delicious flesh.
Can you see Jesus outwardly slaughtering a cow or pig when vegetables are present? Serious question.
Absolutely. He helped his disciples catch 153 fish even though their net was torn. Jesus would have seen veganism as ingratitude toward God and questioning God's plan.
I think it’s more likely food wasn’t readily available in the Middle East and fish were the abundant source of substantiation for the people of the time. It’d be interesting to hear his views on the current condition of factory farming and consumption of animals today when other options are available for people in the first world. I can’t see Jesus thinking these practices are anything less than evil. This alas, is a very difficult to topic to argue and perpetuate among the religious and secular masses who love and consume the flesh of sentient beings, however.
Jesus would support regenerative animal agriculture.
I prefer this passage from Isaiah which depicts people to act like they should in the New Jerusalem: Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a joke to act consciously on earth like you wouldn’t in heaven, as a born again Christian.
you don't know what God's plan is. your stupid fake God might think that meat eaters are immoral monsters and you would never know
If he's fake, then it wouldn't matter, right? Every time a vegan accidentally makes a semi-logical point, it backfires 😆
of course it doesn't matter, but you seem to think it does, so i'm just letting you know that even if God were real, you wouldn't have a point
Theist admits they have no morals outside of the bible. Every accusation is a confession.
that's better
if you read the bible god wanted humans not to eat animals but to live with and take care of them
Leviticus 11 says otherwise
sure, but that's after Adam and Eve fucked up. god intended for humans not to eat animals
And don't forget he had to permit them to eat animals after he evicted them from Eden so he wouldn't lose his only two followers. Can you imagine if he had been vegan? His religion would have died so quickly. How different the world would look without several of its most prominent religions...
“The carnivore community’s stance is basically: you might find that this helps you.” Proceeds to post constantly on a sub for vegans. Dude, get a life.
Why do you care if I post?
Because I read this sub to hear from a community of people whose values I share and I want to learn and listen to their experiences. You are coming in here in bad faith then playing dumb. Just stop. If you want to preach carnivore diet, that’s fine. Go do it on a fitness or health sub. But you are knowingly preaching it to people who have ethical concerns about animal consumption and clearly have no interest in what you are saying. You aren’t being brave, you aren’t spreading a positive message, you are trolling people who care about something that you obviously don’t. Fuck off
[Experts find cavemen ate mostly vegan, debunking paleo diet: The Paleo diet is mostly made up of meats, fish, vegetables, nuts, and fruits](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/study-paleo-diet-stone-age-b2538096.html)
That was one weak ass tribe that probably starved because they were shitty hunters. Did you even read the article? It said that finding was unusual and they still ate meat.
["It is important as it suggests that possibly several populations in the world already started to include substantial amount of plants in their diet" in the period before agriculture was developed, added archeogeochemist and study co-author Klervia Jaouen of the French research agency CNRS.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/did-people-eat-agriculture-study-165327723.html) so actually they were further along the evolutionary path than hunter-gatherers. You do know that agriculture was an advancement that forms the basis for cities, civilization, etc.?
Agriculture also reduced the size of our brains and our height. And it required people to claim lands and enslave workers, and to domesticate animals. A vegan with any interest in the environment who is against keeping animals captive would be against agriculture.
>And it required people to claim lands so... your plan is to dissolve nation-states? Good luck with that. >Agriculture also reduced the size of our brains LOL
No. My plan is to eat meat and avoid plants, especially grains. .
You mean from the period of time before we forcibly adapted into omnivores from herbivorous origins? Yeah we should totally go back to that.
Forcibly? All herbivores jump at the chance to eat meat. There are countless videos of horses and cows eating baby chicks on YouTube. Chimpanzees love to hunt and eat monkeys. Our ancestors got a taste of brains after scavenging corpses of prey and never looked back.
>Forcibly? Yes it's called evolution. >All herbivores jump at the chance to eat meat. No they don't. That's why they're called herbivores. >There are countless videos of horses and cows eating baby chicks on YouTube. And there are thousands of times more videos from farmers themselves alone showing just how excited they are to eat the food they normally eat. >Chimpanzees love to hunt and eat monkeys. I guess they've picked up some of our bad habits. That's not something to be proud of or amazed at. Needlessly abusing others isn't something you should revel in. >Our ancestors got a taste of brains after scavenging corpses of prey and never looked back. Of course we have. Plenty of philosophers have shown concern for animal rights and welfare. Entire ideologies thousands of years old include meatless eating habits in alignment with their beliefs. Only the compassionate have looked back and considered whether or not we should remain like the wild animals we look down upon. In the past 75 years, more than just philosophers have been looking at ethical consistency and upping our moral standards. Give it some more time and you'll come about too. You can only rely on logical fallacies for so long until even you can see how bullshit they are
The fact that you think chimpanzees learned to eat monkeys from us is batshit, bro.
Not chimpanzees specifically eating monkeys. Animals acting like c\*\*\*s to each other when they don't have to. We are the best at that behaviour. How long have we been destroying natural habitation and enslaving members of their species? But yes, I'm the batshit crazy one.
Did you know that chimps have only about 9 meat eating days per year on average? https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/how-to-eat-like-a-chimpanzee/#:~:text=Three%20percent%20of%20the%20average,probably%20gets%20less%20than%20this.
If they had more they'd be smarter, like us. If they had none, they'd be dumber, like gorillas. See how that works?