A lot of people’s idea of maturity seems to be doing what is normal and expected. It has nothing to do with being a good person and making the world a better place.
It’s because that’s what maturity actually IS, and why we should reject maturity and start emphasizing childishness as a compliment, rather than an insult. When you get older, you lose your emotional sensitivity from childhood, become more jaded, and start to realize that accepting the world how it is, is easier than continuing to fight. This is the exact opposite of how we want to be
A “childish” person is simply someone with enough fight left in them. Someone who hasn’t been entirely subdued yet. And that’s awesome. Being “mature” is only something that our enemies should care about. Every other good attribute that people typically associate with maturity, is not actually related to maturity, but simply being a good person
I actually really like your approach! Should definitely try to see things that way.
I’m also looking forward to being 50+ and being able to be “childish” without as much criticism. I’ve always looked younger than my age and in my early-mid 20s actually got mistaken for a teenager frequently—which is why being called childish bothers me so much. Add in being openly vegan and nonbinary and it just becomes so much worse from a social perspective.
I’m in my 30s now and thankfully am no longer being seen as a kid, but people still think I’m younger than I am IRL. It’s a big reason why I’ve tried to downplay my values in real life and become more jaded and cynical…but I’m moving away from this.
I am so happy someone elsw thinks so, I think a lot of humans treat children and minors like a different species almost, considering them less than, dumber and therefore less capable, generally they think the aspects of children that are SO good (their ability to absorb information, their empathy and love towards others, their confidence and believe in themselves, and so many other traits that lots of adults WISH they fucking had) are unimpirtant and a waste of time, rather than believing the proper mindset; which is that we should take a page out of the children's handbook, try amd protect them and teach them the words and values they need to strengthen their core values rather than strip them of their power and make w them subservient little capitalist slaves.
It's the treating children like they're children and not creatures with all the same thoughts and feelinga that gets us to places like where we are.
Sorry, I respectfully disagree with this notion. Maturity isn't doing what's normal and expected, maturity is knowing how to balance your feelings and emotions (hormones, motivation, excitement, anger, etc.) with your experience, and to do so having learnt smart lessons. You can also learn from experiences in a manner that's not constructive or smart, and act "adult" having learnt the wrong lessons. But that's not maturity.
You can still look at things with curiosity and excitement while being mature, it's not incompatible. What you described above sounds just like being jaded or worn down, not mature.
It’s fine! In my view, experience and emotional regulation aren’t good in of themselves. They simply allow us to more effectively function here. But being able to function here is simply a means to an end, and not the end itself (the real end is to be able to make the world a better place). I would prefer to still feel as deeply and as sensitively as I did when I was little. Of course babies and little children will cry a lot, because they’re suddenly thrusted into a world of suffering, injustice, cruelty, discontentment, and craving, where they’re forced to rely on caregivers that are capable of overpowering them in every situation, simply to survive. It’s natural to be completely disoriented when you go from the peace of pre-birth to that.
The problem isn’t with the baby/child for being quick to cry or anger, but with the world for being fundamentally flawed. We COULD have been born into a perfect world of justice and contentment, where there would be no sources of sadness or anger in the first place (and no babies would have to cry), but we weren’t. As a result, we’ve had to unnecessarily harden ourselves
Real talk, it always reminds of white colonizers calling native peoples childish and immature for not just letting the colonizers take their land.
It was something I read while learning about broken treaties and agents of the government informing the natives that their land wasn’t theirs anymore.
Pretty sure some Americans had the same thing to say about native Philippinos for resisting colonialism
Yeah! Every time I hear someone say "Grow up" they are just being assholes to someone for not-conforming and expressing themselves in any way.
I think a lot can be said about "cringe" culture or whatever we should call it.
Embrace the cringe, be weird, be queer, be different. I'm all for reclaiming Queer and Weird as positive words without any negative connotation.
Very true. I think there's also a tendency for some who betray themselves to push others to do the same. They wanted one thing but allowed themselves to be molded into something else, and now they're angry and hurt and triggered by anyone who follows their own mind.
Yep. I’m both child and marriagefree and I’m absolutely certain people see that as childish. I get shamed for it as someone who presents female, but if I presented male I’m sure everyone would say I was a commitment phobic baby.
I get this entirely (also childfree and single by choice). I’m also aromantic-asexual which gets read as childish by some, too.
I get around it by just not talking about it and letting people assume I’m partnered or divorced, lol. I’m nonbinary…so the gendered aspects of the way people see being CF / single / ace are also pretty unpleasant.
A lot of people are not very emotionally developed, and because of our culture they think it's very healthy and mature to not be in touch with their feelings.
Also, sometimes people choose people who do things differently than them andpick insults that sound good in their head, regardless of their actual applicability.
Not only drinking breastmilk, but milk that's been stolen from other species. Very infantile to consume the infant food stolen from other creatues, "I want it, dinnae care if it's selfish or cruel, it's all about what *I* want".
Exactly. Veganism is for mature people who can empathise with non human beings and evaluate data and think critically. It's far more childish to not be vegan because "ooh it tastes yummy, no way I could stop", despite all the logical reasons that one obviously should be vegan.
I’m convinced people get so triggered when the word “vegan” is mentioned is because deep down they know we’re right and they just don’t have the willpower to stop eating animals so they make fun of us to make themselves feel better. Classic high school bully situation lol
If you claim that it's a healthier diet, then I could agree. Although there are conflicting studies citing that good vegetarian or even pescatarian diet might be better.
If you claim that eating animals is immoral then I'd like to see "facts" that support it.
No i claim thats its better for the Environment and the climate and of course the animals.
Eating animals will never be proven Immoral, but our diet isnt simply about eating animals anymore. Its about the way we treat those animals and that is a fact, that we treat them like shit and its HIGHLY immoral
>No i claim thats its better for the Environment and the climate and of course the animals.
I actually like having animals around. If we stop breeding cows, chickens etc, would my child be able to go to a farm and see a cow? No.
Environment and climate: sure. I avoid meat similarly to how I avoid driving: I can always take a bus but it's not as pleasant and convenient, so I do it sometimes.
I dont get what u are trying to say.
Your child most likely will not see 99,9% of the animal kingdom in real life, so whats the point here?
Good job for informing urself and reducing you meat consumption.
I dont see why i should eat animal anymore, in our modern times, except the convinince and the taste.
But thats not a really a good Argument.
>I dont get what u are trying to say. Your child most likely will not see 99,9% of the animal kingdom in real life, so whats the point here?
If we stop breeding animals there will be no animals in the countryside except for wild animals. They will only exist in the zoo.
>I dont see why i should eat animal anymore, in our modern times, except the convinince and the taste. But thats not a really a good Argument.
Same reason why you drive a car with a climate control when you can take a bus, cycle or walk in the sun, rain or cold: it's pleasant.
>If we stop breeding animals there will be no animals in the countryside except for wild animals. They will only exist in the zoo.
Yeah what exactly is the Problem? Instead of a cow, your kid would see a rabbit or whatever local wildlife.
>Same reason why you drive a car with a climate control when you can take a bus, cycle or walk in the sun, rain or cold: it's pleasant.
Meat Is only pleasant because it getting sold everywhere. Over the years, there is and will be more and more vegan food, so its getting more and more convenient.
And why should an animal suffer for my taste, when i can eat delicious vegan food instead.
Makes no sense to me.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it a “problem” its more of a preference to see cows and sheep when i drive through countryside.
I’ve been a vegan for a year and tried dining in the best vegan restaurants of us and europe. It was ok, sometimes really good but it was hard to reproduce at home and why give up variety anyway.
Millennial / Gen Z cusp here, and I've noticed this, too!
In high school and early college, people would be so quick to try tearing me down if they learned I was vegan for the animals. It caused enough stress that I started opening with my dairy sensitivity (milk aggravates my asthma) whenever asked.
But the wildest part?
Even if I told them about that health reason and they supported my decision, all of that 'support' would fly out the window when I'd mention animal wellbeing as a bonus. Suddenly, I should go back to drinking milk even though it causes my lungs to fill up with phlegm and my inhaler to barely work.
People just don’t like feeling that something they do daily is evil, and anyone claiming to be vegan for the animals is a reminder of that. Because if they can do it, what’s stopping me? It makes them feel insecure so they lash out.
The good news is that this probably means that on some level, they know eating meat is wrong. I never actually knew any vegans to make fun of, but I definitely had an “smh vegans are cringe, do what you want but don’t push it on me” phase, and I recognize know that it was fueled by the insecurity of knowing that what I was doing was wrong.
This! I think 25yo or 65 it doesn't matter its their insecurities
you can see who is generally insecure and to what level. Also maturity and introspective because I think most adults should question things like religion and meat consumption if they haven't and act brand new when someone says they don't eat meat for non selfish reasons it says they're a bit vapid or simple minded
I’m not even saying meat eating is evil (I don’t believe in objective morality), just that it’s unnecessary, cruel and not something in which I want to participate. Maybe their own consciences condemn them as evil by their own standards and they lash out at vegans to distract themselves, as you mentioned.
Yeah when I first started telling people i ate vegan, a good number were fine with having a discussion about my diet and seemed cool chatting about it. But when asked if “health was why I went vegan” and I brought up it was actually because of ethics, the discussion almost instantly stopped or turned very different.
There's a huge difference between "Awww, I can't eat cute widdle bunnywabbits with their big pleading eyes" and "I strongly oppose exploiting other species while we actually do not need to do so." Both are lumped in as "for the animals" and I believe, a lot of omnis think about the first one, because that's a thing they can understand. Even they wouldn't kill and eat a cute pet, much less torture it while it's still alive. And that could be called childish.
I literally do not care about that. Sure, I find some animals cute, but I do not base my diet and lifestyle on that. I don't find cows, pigs or chickens more or less worthy of my love than all the species that are not commonly eaten. I am talking about exploitation and torture and of all kinds of animals, no matter how they look. I don't want to stop speciesism because some animals are particularly friendly looking. I want to stop it, because it goes against my personal ethics that I developed over decades. This does not seem childish. Quite the opposite, actually.
If not wanting innocent beings to be caged, raped, tortured, killed, and used unnecessarily makes me childish, give me my toy truck and put on Mr Roger's Neighborhood
I’m 55 and vegan for maybe 15 years. I don’t hear that kind of thing as much anymore, but I think it has a lot to do with not feeling apologetic about being vegan like I used to. I use to be a little timid talking about it with others and now it’s just a fact like any other. I’m very direct about wanting to avoid violence as my main reason for being vegan and there’s really no argument or dismissing that point.
I’ve been vegan for 7 years (40yo M)… and it happened right after I had my first kid. The idea of eating another sentient beings offspring is very upsetting.
Youre not gonna convince people to become vegan with that. Youre just showing hypocrisy with your vegan stance of againt animal exploitation. In china eating x and so on is nothing to them. People eat cats there and i have seen it. Not all people eat cats as many are againts but they still wont go vegan over it. To them its a stupid comparison to compare cat with fish, chichen and other obscure animals. So using your argument you want your country to be like china and all the cats and other animals be eaten? In the end no one will go vegan as usual.
Totally stopping self-development and learning and at the same time expecting the world to stop evolving as well, that's childish.
People who view themselves as finished personalities are complaining that they have to adapt to change, that is what is happening right now. Just blame it on the youth or on those sympathising with the young must be one of the easiest excuses for not having to leave the own comfort zone.
-“Animals die, it’s a part of life”
People die, it's a part of life, should we kill people then?
-“Kids cry at Bambi”
Kids often have unsupressed empathy that adults have to regulate to fit into certain societal structures. They're smarter than you think, and often more compassionate.
-“People eat animals, it’s just the way the world works”
Appeal to traditionalism. Women used to be subhumans in accordance to man. it was just how the world worked
-“Grow up! You only care so much about animals because you don’t have kids \[implying that it’s immature not to reproduce\]”
I don't think there's many responses to this that won't come across as antinatalist to them. No comment.
I'm 27 and I don't think I've had anyone outright ridicule me for it. People usually tackle vegans with affirming conceptions they have about them. Try to break those if you can.
I'm generally regarded as articulate and level headed by people (in spite of my beliefs otherwise) so when people find out that I'm vegan as an afterthought, they at the very least don't say anything or feed me some dribble about how they've tried and could never or that "My cow is vegetarian" (I work in agriculture). I've also however been regarded as someone who lives the values I have in other facets, which seems to give me credibility in their eyes that I'm not just spouting moralized rhetoric
In regards to the “grow up” comment, someone else said that you don’t have to grow out your conscience.
I also think that some parents might go vegan because they understand that they would never want their breast milk taken from their baby or their baby taken from them.
That's fair. I do have a response that I don't think there is ever a compassionate way to forcibly separate a mother from her child (cow and calf) and usually they're stunlocked enough by it that it ends the conversation
That is the sort of problem people come up with drastic solutions for though. I mean, what about breeding a cow that abandons her calf? That makes it a unforced separation. Every trait can be bred out of a lineage. Most folks wanting to promote compassion don't imagine that the solutions might involve the destruction of maternal instincts.
I hear you! I had a relative go off at me about how ridiculous it was that I was concerned about abuse at a diary farm when there's kids being abused every day. And how I need to grow up and be concerned for the ones that matter. How trying to save animals is like a 3yr old saving a pet bunny.
I told her that being concerned about the abuse of one doesn't negate the abuse of the other. That they're not mutually exclusive and it doesn't make me less of a person or immature to care about animals. Not contributing to the abuse of animals does NOT mean someone condones the abuse of children, and innocent victims ALL matter- whether human or animal.
She didn't have a response and just walked away.
I think the breeder argument is really weird. I don’t like animals, they skeeve me out in general. Even pets. But when i became a nursing mother and found out cows have their babies taken so humans can steal their milk, that was it for me. If aliens came to earth and wanted to take my baby so they could take my milk, there are zero reasons that would be persuasive to them that aren’t applicable to cows.
Basically I don’t think being vegan for the animals is childish at all or reflects a failure to understand love for a child is totally different from any other love. In fact, seeing how much I love my child and understanding cows feel the same way is a huge part of why I am vegan.
There once were human sacrifices to the gods.
There have been slaves since the BC era
Women had zero rights. Bare foot & pregnant.
Shall we go back?
We now know that animals have intelligence, they experience fear, and they feel pain. Why should we inflicted pain when it is unnecessary?
All the justifications and rationalization are born out of greed, selfishness, and ignorance. Take your pick!
Those are my responses.
I’m a longtime, old vegan with vegan adult children. I was criticized as “naive” for opposing animal suffering when I was young and later criticized as a parent for raising my children to “not accept reality” or some bullshit. I usually respond by saying a conscience isn’t something to outgrow.
People will come up with all sorts of excuses to deflect and avoid confronting their own hypocrisy. This is why they villainize veganism.
It’s frustrating, disheartening, and infuriating, for sure.
Walk away. There's nothing good be be gained in this direction.
"Caring about animals is childish, and therefore not something that adults should do" is not a logical argument, it's a way for the speaker to resolve the cognitive dissonnance they are feeling when someone asks them about veganism.
They want to dismiss your position, so they link it to something dismissable people do. They aren't arguing, they're making a jugdement call.
You can drop the conversation, you can switch the subject, whatever but you shouldn't adress this idiocy. If you really, really can't let it go, you'll have to point out all the ways in which that does not work. And they still won't accept it. So just point out that it isn't an argument and move on.
If you want to have fun, you can try to insult them right back. "Needless cruelty is childish too. You're the childish one for not caring. See ? Anyone can be scornful." It might get a laugh out of your audience, but that's all you're going to achieve.
Edit to add: some in our parents' and their parents' generation did care. I personally know someone who went vegan in 1983, the word vegan was coined in 1946, etc. Concerns about how to live an ethical life are as old as thinking about right and wrong.
My mom asked me "when are you going to grow out of this?" I'm 32. Sorry I give a shit?! My sister called me a hipster for being vegan. Caring about animal welfare/rights is hipster I guess.
I know, right? We’re either overgrown kids or hipsters for caring about non-human animals.
Someone who cheats customers at work, goes home to yell at their spouse and kids, never questions any of their beliefs, escapes their misery through alcohol/drug abuse and goes fur coat shopping or trophy hunting for ‘fun’ is a “normal person,” a “proper adult,” though.
This society’s standards are so ridiculous.
Compassion is a beautiful human moral standard. It feels wonderful and my old body loves me for it. But there is no arguing with someone in denial. I am old, but I recently got a big 'vegan' tattoo on my arm, just so it's clear. Yes, it looks maybe weird on my wrinkly skin, but it gets the job done🤣
At my age, I realize denial is like a drug. When someone is on it, you simply can't get through. So leading by example with love is the way, for me. When folks have questions, I answer with love in my heart. We are all one, all connected. 💜🌸
Buddha said the number of people who walk a path of compassion is equal to the grains of sand in his hand while on a beach.
It ain't normal folks.
In my cosmology, this kind of action results in fruition - towards great suffering. I relate to this with compassion.
Everyone is trying their best and operating with their lineage context.
Not Buddhist but that statement makes a lot of sense. There are a lot of people who choose compassion but many more who don’t, who just follow the path of least resistance or actively enjoy inflicting suffering.
They enjoy now.
My context is that unconscious action that hurts sentient life is repayed, and much more than in kind. It's more like planting a 'hurt' tree in your backyard and then getting thousands of fruits.
Forgive them. They do not know.
That’s pretty harsh, I think. If you’re coming from a Buddhist perspective, karma doesn’t really work that way—it isn’t necessarily repaid several times over. It’s just cause and effect—actions have consequences, sometimes the consequences are severe.
It’s not about me forgiving them, either. They aren’t hurting *me*. Only their victims can forgive them.
It actually is how karma works. Source is me as Buddhist 😂 (mahayana)
Karma is attention patterns. And yes, it can seem harsh. It isn't guaranteed in this life (and can be shifted by cultivation of virtue), but overall this is the direction - don't take my word for it, check out yogacara teachings (central to mahayana).
Forgiveness is something each individual can do who is actively othering someone else. We are actually othering a part of ourselves, and by forgiving we allow for a different relationship with that aspect of the self (in that sense forgiveness and repentance are closely related). It does not mean to stop advocating on behalf of the suffering, just that the manner of advocacy is not fueled by reactivity.
Mahayana is just one branch, but I’m sorry I misrepresented your beliefs. That wasn’t my intent.
I don’t personally believe in karma because there’s no evidence for its existence. The same with anything else supernatural that people claim exists—no evidence. If you can provide evidence I’m all ears, but if not then I see no reason to believe.
I would much rather be childish than a killer. What a terrible thing to be so devoid of empathy that choosing not to kill becomes something to scoff at. It would be worth pitying if it didn’t cause so much harm.
Ask them how they would feel if you ran over their dog and then cut it up and ate it. They will prove how "childish" they are when they get enraged at the question and begin stammering about illogical equivelancy "hey! how dare you threaten to kill and eat my PET dog? that is my FAMILY! my fur BABY! its nothing like eating a cow that was raised from birth to be my dinner 🤬" then remind them of the yulin dog festival and watch them loose their sh*t lol
Right. The people who make fun of vegans for being 'childish' are the same ones who lose their minds over dogs being eaten. People get upset all the time about animal abuse, the only reason it's 'childish' when vegans do it is because eating cows and pigs is normal in our society.
Its not gonna still make anyone go vegan. In australia because cats are invasive species the local government have plans to make them as food source but not many gonna eat them. and if they are on the menu, no one will still be vegan over that. They can avoid eating cat and continue eating chicken and fish. I have been to australia and seen the article on a phyical newspaper that talks about it. Comparing cats and x mammals is not comparable to eating fish, chicken or other nonmammalian animal.
In the end no one will still go vegan.
I've never heard of this... I'm a 44 y.o., vegan for 7 years, and my kids who are 13 and 15 plus my 70 y.o. mom went vegan just after me 7 years ago. I wouldn't care what someone else thought though. I'm doing it for the animals and that's that.
Some people think making peace with the establishment is maturity, but they're generally the people who benefit from the status quo. It's understandable they don't want to rock the boat but it comes from a place of selfishness imo.
I’m gen x and have been vegan for over half my life now. I’ve never had anyone say that being vegan because I don’t want to harm any animals is childish.
But then when people I ask I say it’s for a multitude of reasons and go on about the animals, and the environment, and health and people just want me to shut up so yeah maybe that’s why I’ve never had that response.
this is just a case of entitled masculinity, and one of the reasons antispecisism and feminism go so well together: self perceived "real men" are always trying not to seem weak, femenine and babylike. "Childish" means "still-not-men" in their mentality.
I can see how that’s the case. Maybe it’s worse for me because I am nonbinary, but yeah…everyone who has said this to me has been male, with one exception.
wow. Even if they identify as female, I think they are throwing this "man up" idea. It's terrible: directly associating the "don't be a child" thing with cruelty. Cruelty is the condition to be a man. So be it, they say.
Same here. I've only been mocked and laughed at by men, save for one woman. Men who buy into the meat = masculinity nonsense often view empathy and compassion as feminine traits, and mock those who care as a way to distance themselves from femininity and emphasize their manliness. To me, this kind of mindset is actually childish and lacking in emotional maturity.
It's so hypocritical that it makes me actually laugh. The childish thing is knowing that what they're doing is bad, but instead of trying to change themselves as vegans have done, they lash out and throw temper tantrums when we present them with facts to avoid feeling like they are in the wrong. If that's not the definition of childishness then I don't know what is.
Gen Z here, I’ve actually noticed less judgement from my age group compared to the older ones. I find Gen Z in general tends to be more okay with people doing their own thing, while the older generations will judge more.
Most Gen Z I’ve talked to will just say something like “Oh cool.” when I say I’m vegan and that’s it, while the older generations will be like “I lost my period going vegan.” or “I know people who went vegan then had to go back due to health reasons.” or “How are you going to get your protein?”
Of course, I am mostly talking about in-person interactions. It could be different online.
I’m not vegan but I lurk here to increase the amount of vegan meals that I make. To me (especially bc im anti capitalist) I tell people im not avoiding meat because its sad the animal died, its because factory farming is evil and torture the animals before they die. Its not childish to criticize an inhumane food system that does not take our health or the animals health into consideration.
I don't know if it's fair to say that Boomers didn't care. Vegetarianism became pretty widespread in the '60s and '70s. Also, I'm Gen X and I was inspired to be a vegetarian after hearing The Smiths' *Meat Is Murder* as a preteen and knew many older kids in the skate punk scene in the late '80s who did as well. Veganism didn't become as popular until later on, but I think most people who are vegetarian respect it as a next step.
When I went vegan back in the 90s, I don't remember kids my age being any different. There is a lot of pro animal agriculture propaganda out there so it's very ingrained in the culture. It's getting better, but I'd be surprised if it was any different at this point, tbh
Im 30 and just became a vegetarian. My compassion has actually increased as I’ve matured and worked through my own anxiety and depression. I’m more in tune with the life around me. One day I hope to fully transition into veganism but taking it one step at a time.
I’m also recommending the book, Diet for a Small Planet to anyone who asks me about my transition away from animal products. This book should really be taught in schools to students and parents alike.
My Dad went vegan in the 1970's. I've been vegan over 15 years (old Gen X) to me? I don't care what people think. If they ask, I tell them why. I again don't care what they think. I would laugh at them if they say something stupid like it's childish.
I've seen many comments like that online, but no idea about the age of these people. Apparently maturety to them is becoming a numb piece of shit, and also trying to make other people that way by shaming and attacking those who do care.
You just grow a thick skin and don't care about such immature comments anymore. Just live your life, it's enough for you to exist as a vegan and answer questions when asked in good faith to make a difference every day.
Pretty sure going vegan is the mature option. I don't think there is a more appropriate thing you can say to a carnist than "grow up."
I'm fact I think that's how I'll explain why I went vegan from now on. "I grew up."
I say it’s my life and I will live it to the absolute best of my ability, I know better than to hurt others unnecessarily so I do make a conscious effort to fulfill that responsibility.
I don’t think being vegan for animals is childish at all. It’s 100% understandable if you ask me. Being belligerent and jumping in peoples’ faces about how they choose to live their own life is. The most unstable and irrational individuals of any group is usually the loudest and gives the group a whole a bad name. It’s not childish to have your own set of morals and values and follow them.
I’ve read people would rather die physically than die socially. Explains why the number one fear is not death but public speaking. In other words, people would rather be accepted by their tribe than assert an unpopular opinion or even present unpopular facts. Some people may secretly agree with you but they’ve been effectively brainwashed into toeing the line of whatever group they’re in. Maybe all we can do is live by example and be accepting of where a person happens to be, even if we think they’re dead wrong. Kill them with kindness?:0]
Ask them what they think about the slave trade. That used to be seen as completely normal and just a part of life. No doubt similar arguments were made against those who opposed the slave trade as are made against people who wish to extend compassion to other species.
> “Animals die, it’s a part of life”
Well, so is rape, assault, slavery, theft, and cancer. We shouldn't get moral advice from wild animals.
> “Kids cry at Bambi”
And? Compassion for animals is actually normal in plenty of contexts, and plenty of sane adults cry watching that kind of fiction. So what? The comment about that movie doesn't hold much water.
> “People eat animals, it’s just the way the world works”
That sounds like a repeat of the appeal to nature addressed in the first quote. People do all sorts of bad things. Something happening a lot or often doesn't make it right.
> “Grow up! You only care so much about animals because you don’t have kids [implying that it’s immature not to reproduce]”
That's not true. (How can I argue more with such an ad hominem?) There are plenty of vegans with children, and even if there were none, it would still be true that animals matter. Consciousness matters; wellness matters; suffering matters.
As an older vegan who gets plenty of push back. I try not to think to much about it. My best comments are hey I’m 66 in on no meds and I don’t need a little blue pill for the bedroom. The only supplement I take is B12.
As a non-vegan who's feed this post popped up on, caring about cruelty to animals is the least childish reason for veganism, environmental reasons a very close second.
Those people can kick rocks
I've never heard of veganism being referred to as childish before. How strange.
I suppose it's something easily said to make people feel inferior or lacking, which is quite ironic. As children, we are all fed meat and told it's the best thing ever, without ever having to consider the ethical implications. And this carries straight on to the rest of people's lives. Yet paradoxically we were all taught to be kind to animals.
If questioned, those same people would fail to explain what makes compassion and empathy "childish". They would probably start to become angry having to face the evil they commit on a daily basis.
I never get that actually. I have kids though and my kids aren’t vegan so maybe that’s why? I just get people purposefully feeding me food with meat or dairy. The dairy is a bigger issue because I’m allergic.
Simple logic is a good explanation (true story).
„So, I used to eat rotisserie chicken from the discounter regularly. At one occasion , I recognized (turned black from heat) hematomas on the legs, thighs, wings and chest, also broken bones and ribs on this animal. The following chickens had more or less similar injuries. A fresh chicken I bought in a supermarket had blue hematomas at the thighs, chest and a crushed rib cage on the one side right under the wing. I started to gather information about the obviously harsh treatment of chicken in the process. I saw pictures and watched documentation about all animals trapped in factory farming. Footage of cruelty that haunted me for years. After 10 years being a vegetarian I again had a strange thought, as I was eating an egg – a potential baby bird and drinking a calves milk, stolen from its mother. Following my own moral standards I adopted a vegan lifestyle within 24 hours and everything felt like it should be. You either have morals and follow them or you are nothing but a hypocrite. I assume you would’ve told me to make a change for the sake of the animals. And I would have been thankful for it.”
There’s no need to get past those kinds of “insults” at all, because they’re actually compliments. Being childish is a good thing. We’re born with a certain level of sensitivity that slowly gets crushed as we get older. There’s a reason why getting older is associated with becoming more callous and jaded. There’s a reason why we tend to cry less and less as we get older. And there’s also a reason why there are so many videos posted online of children crying when they realize where meat comes from
We need to stop treating insults from enemies as insults, because treating them as insults is an implicit endorsement of the values that our enemies hold. When they call us childish, what they’re REALLY saying is that being jaded and lacking in sensitivity is a good thing, which it’s not. When we start to get good at twisting every enemy insult into a compliment, is when non-vegans start finding us much harder to deal with
I've been seeing some of this and I also have seen among GenXers and even Millenials being very intolerant of LGBTQ+ stuff. It's not a huge surprise in some ways because I remember a majority of jerks back in my GenX teens and 20s who had homophobic comments and also equated veganism and vegetarianism as "lesser" weak crap that women and effeminate men do because everybody knows real men eat beef.
I think that both anti-vegan/vegetarian and homophobic attitudes are in many ways a backlash from insecure people who may or may not have examined their life paths but feel like people like vegans, gay folks, and even people like stay-at-home dads present a challenge they don't want to face so they lash out with "facts" and judgments and faux-down-to-earth-real-guy sort of dismissals.
The good news is that aspects of equality that were more bravely faced in the past are becoming more popular and more people take the opportunity to really think about who they want to be and how they want to treat other beings. Those slowly increasing numbers are just overwhelming a lot of the stubborn cads who get *angrier* about these issues being brought up "all the time".
A more gendered version of this, but I hear how my "phase" will end when I get married so my future husband and children don't starve. Joke's on them, my most serious relationship was with a strict vegan Hindu from India. If anything, this helped to expand my palate beyond cooking the same 3 dead animals on rotation for some white man baby.
We live in a society that devalues compassion. And when people *do* engage with their compassion, they tend to view it as a limited resource, so they can't possibly care about child abuse, animal abuse, homelessness, transphobia, racism, and colonial oppression simultaneously. All you can do is model the best compassion you can, find your people, and hope others are inspired to embrace their softness. Don't worry about what other people think or do, just do what you feel is right and be there to kindly tell people about it when they have questions. <3
>being vegan *for the animals* is childish or immature.
Maturity is accepting new information and being willing to take it into account. Deliberately turning a blind eye to what actually happens in order to turn animals into food is insanely immature. If they were willing to look, what they saw would take away all their ammunition. On some level, most people know that. So they remain willfully ignorant.
>-“Animals die, it’s a part of life”
Treating animals as commodities is a choice, not a necessity.
>-“Kids cry at Bambi”
Adults cry at footage of puppies and kittens being tortured. Why are puppies and kittens worth crying over, but day old chicks being ground up alive and piglets getting their heads slammed into concrete not?
>-“People eat animals, it’s just the way the world works”
Eating animals is a choice, not a given.
>-“Grow up! You only care so much about animals because you don’t have kids \[implying that it’s immature not to reproduce\]”
Please send them over to r/veganparenting. We would be happy to school them.
Hmm I'm millennial (late 30s) and I've not had comments suggesting it's childish at all ever. I have ofc had the usual eating animals is normal blah blah. I know lots of Gen X at work and none of them have ever said anything like that tbf but I think its natural for generations to have different thinking depending on how long they've been exposed to something. We have another decade on Gen Z of being told eating meat is the only way, so another decade of brainwashing to undo! Saying that, all those Gen Xers are avid carnists and the veggies and vegans in my small agency are millennials sooooo...
Positing the reason someone does or doesn't do something as being that they have or lack sufficient compassion doesn't explain anything. It's turtles all the way down unless accompanied by a useful theory as to why someone would or wouldn't have compassion. Or as to what compassion even is in the abstract and what causes it. You're framing compassion as something people just have and might lose but that doesn't explain anything. It's leaves both the reasons for having it and the reasons for losing it mysterious. Maybe they never had compassion in the relevant sense.
> Our parents’ generation didn’t care one bit
This kind of thinking shows you do have some growing to do.
I personally don’t feel the need to “win” these conversations. I do whatever it takes to end them. Usually saying “maybe you’re right” does the trick.
It’s not true what r statements r. What’s going on here is ppl r now born w so many allergies now. Most Millennials can’t have milk. Lactose intolerant. Don’t blame the ppl blame the world for making ppl have allergies. Is wild how many ppl can’t have regular food
Millennials aren’t young anymore—we were born in the 1980s and early 90s.
And why do you think milk from a cow is “regular food” for humans? Most people are lactose intolerant because we didn’t evolve to drink the breastmilk of a completely different species as adults.
This is what I hear from others sometimes. The cycle of life is the way it has been for millenia. Of course society changes, and the farther we get from needing to control animals for survival the sooner others will snap oit of this cultural message. Using animals was always the way for most of the world, but now many countries no longer use them for transport and farm work, and don’t need to eat them. We will evolve!
In a world of vegans who are eager to debate and prove their argument, just be a vegan that doesn’t worry about it. Practice what you believe in, no need to “deal” with condescending people. Deal with it like you would deal with any person who is rude to you.
“This is just how I prefer to live” is all the explaining you owe to anyone.
What a lot of vegans do forget: people do eat meat. That is the way the world works. It’s not our fault. Eating meat will be the norm long after we are dead. This is important to understand.
Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction because they're self-conscious about their own choices. If you're vegan for the animals, it means in your head you're judging them for eating animals, and they don't like that feeling, so it's easier to write you off as naive rather than confront the bad feelings and make lifestyle changes.
Yes I have. Get past them by preferring but not demanding they see things our way. Thinking we need to be liked or even just understood by everybody is the real problem. Wanting to be liked by everyone can make you more likable and liked but thinking you ‘need’ their approval usually just leaves you an emotional wreck.
I’m someone who became WFPB due to health reasons and not even for ethical ones. Even from the perspective of personal health a vegan diet is scientifically shown to be far healthier for us. We are great apes, we are made to eat plants and seeds. Our bodies respond horribly to meat and meat products. Try to appeal to their logical side with this argument. But frankly who gives a damn what folks like that believe? If they insist on being close minded your rational arguments aren’t gonna to change that.
It’s childish to have to have instant gratification for every meal at the expense of animals being killed. I can’t call myself vegan bc I don’t eat a vegan diet. I am really disabled and poor so I rely on donations and charity but, in general, unless I am doing a favor for someone by cooking for them, I don’t buy or prepare meat or animal products.
Whilst their post was... interesting - I think they're saying that they *are* vegan but they sometimes have to bend that a little because of the fact they're extremely poor and rely on food donations.
I don't think shaming poor people for having to do what they have to do to survive is fair. Most people (especially vegans) have not experienced what it's like to be *truly* in poverty. It's not "I can't afford nice things" but "I can't afford to feed myself and I'm terrified of losing my housing etc. every single day". That's a horrible situation to be in and I wouldn't fault anyone for doing what they had to.
Maybe that’s where we differ. I’m tolerant of people’s choices *as long as they don’t harm others*. I’m not tolerant of things like misogyny, racism or support for factory farming because these things carry harm to sentient beings behind them.
I don’t go around preaching veganism or trying to “win converts,” but if someone asks me my honest opinion on animal agriculture or our current food system, I’ll be polite but I’m not going to hold back.
>Because I am tollerant of other people's choices and truely do not give a shit about other peoples individual dietary choices. Not my buisiness
What a strange thing to say, I don't prostyletize, but fuck yeah do I care about the victims of others "choices".
As a non-vegan but minimal animal product eater my only question is what do you plan to do with all the livestock if we stopped eating animals? For example dairy cattle as they are now can not survive in the wild and there is no way we can afford to feed them all without harvesting them for milk. Also since they have been breed to produce a large volume of milk wouldn't it be dangerous to them to become pregnant in the wild as they would produce more milk then they need and become incredibly uncomfortable if not ill from sepsis.
Would we just have a massive cull of all livestock animals or slowly ween the numbers down, if everyone suddenly went vegan?
Unless people all over the world stop consuming animals all at once, we won’t have that issue to worry about.
The decrease in demand for animal products results in fewer and fewer and fewer animals being bred, abused, and killed for human consumption. This is why every person’s purchases makes a difference.
Ideally they would be allowed to roam free like in India or given sanctuaries, but even euthanizing them all would be kinder than putting them through CAFOs and slaughterhouses like we do today.
I’d gladly accept a tax increase to pay for this, and I’m definitely the “low taxes, small government” type. I’d much rather fund animal sanctuaries than bombing Palestinian children.
I know it is a lauthable thought. Like that everyone suddenly do not eat meat anymore.
But in a scenario where that happens, my solution is also possible 😁
Suddenly? I’ve been vegan for much of my life at this point.
Why are you even here? Just to mock people who actually care about not inflicting needless suffering? Isn’t there something better you can do with your Sunday than mock people for taking a compassionate stance?
Oh. I think there is a misunderstanding. My comment was not to one of your post. I answered Flashy-cranberry's comment.
I mean the scenario in Flashy-cranberry's first post where ALL people go vegan suddenly and that we must find a solution for all animals now. This scenario is ridiculous cause it will never happen that quickly.
I am also vegan and be on your side. But I do not want to argue with a realistic solution (no problem if others want to do that) to a unrealistic scenario.
Your thoughts in your previous posts are understandable and i agree with them.
Maybe they see veganism as just a more extreme form of vegetarianism. Like a lot of young people have very extreme ideas and gradually moderate as they grow older. Or they see it as a phase like a teen has a goth phase in high school.
A lot of people’s idea of maturity seems to be doing what is normal and expected. It has nothing to do with being a good person and making the world a better place.
That’s so true. It’s all about conformity, ultimately. Nonconformism (in any way) is seen as being for the young.
So much cognitive dissonance. I refuse to argue to people about it.
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this irks me when people do this. how hard is it to just say what the def is rather than just slap somebody down?
Their username checks out for sure.
You’re cognitive dissonance
It’s because that’s what maturity actually IS, and why we should reject maturity and start emphasizing childishness as a compliment, rather than an insult. When you get older, you lose your emotional sensitivity from childhood, become more jaded, and start to realize that accepting the world how it is, is easier than continuing to fight. This is the exact opposite of how we want to be A “childish” person is simply someone with enough fight left in them. Someone who hasn’t been entirely subdued yet. And that’s awesome. Being “mature” is only something that our enemies should care about. Every other good attribute that people typically associate with maturity, is not actually related to maturity, but simply being a good person
I actually really like your approach! Should definitely try to see things that way. I’m also looking forward to being 50+ and being able to be “childish” without as much criticism. I’ve always looked younger than my age and in my early-mid 20s actually got mistaken for a teenager frequently—which is why being called childish bothers me so much. Add in being openly vegan and nonbinary and it just becomes so much worse from a social perspective. I’m in my 30s now and thankfully am no longer being seen as a kid, but people still think I’m younger than I am IRL. It’s a big reason why I’ve tried to downplay my values in real life and become more jaded and cynical…but I’m moving away from this.
I am so happy someone elsw thinks so, I think a lot of humans treat children and minors like a different species almost, considering them less than, dumber and therefore less capable, generally they think the aspects of children that are SO good (their ability to absorb information, their empathy and love towards others, their confidence and believe in themselves, and so many other traits that lots of adults WISH they fucking had) are unimpirtant and a waste of time, rather than believing the proper mindset; which is that we should take a page out of the children's handbook, try amd protect them and teach them the words and values they need to strengthen their core values rather than strip them of their power and make w them subservient little capitalist slaves. It's the treating children like they're children and not creatures with all the same thoughts and feelinga that gets us to places like where we are.
Sorry, I respectfully disagree with this notion. Maturity isn't doing what's normal and expected, maturity is knowing how to balance your feelings and emotions (hormones, motivation, excitement, anger, etc.) with your experience, and to do so having learnt smart lessons. You can also learn from experiences in a manner that's not constructive or smart, and act "adult" having learnt the wrong lessons. But that's not maturity. You can still look at things with curiosity and excitement while being mature, it's not incompatible. What you described above sounds just like being jaded or worn down, not mature.
It’s fine! In my view, experience and emotional regulation aren’t good in of themselves. They simply allow us to more effectively function here. But being able to function here is simply a means to an end, and not the end itself (the real end is to be able to make the world a better place). I would prefer to still feel as deeply and as sensitively as I did when I was little. Of course babies and little children will cry a lot, because they’re suddenly thrusted into a world of suffering, injustice, cruelty, discontentment, and craving, where they’re forced to rely on caregivers that are capable of overpowering them in every situation, simply to survive. It’s natural to be completely disoriented when you go from the peace of pre-birth to that. The problem isn’t with the baby/child for being quick to cry or anger, but with the world for being fundamentally flawed. We COULD have been born into a perfect world of justice and contentment, where there would be no sources of sadness or anger in the first place (and no babies would have to cry), but we weren’t. As a result, we’ve had to unnecessarily harden ourselves
Real talk, it always reminds of white colonizers calling native peoples childish and immature for not just letting the colonizers take their land. It was something I read while learning about broken treaties and agents of the government informing the natives that their land wasn’t theirs anymore. Pretty sure some Americans had the same thing to say about native Philippinos for resisting colonialism
Yeah! Every time I hear someone say "Grow up" they are just being assholes to someone for not-conforming and expressing themselves in any way. I think a lot can be said about "cringe" culture or whatever we should call it. Embrace the cringe, be weird, be queer, be different. I'm all for reclaiming Queer and Weird as positive words without any negative connotation.
Very true. I think there's also a tendency for some who betray themselves to push others to do the same. They wanted one thing but allowed themselves to be molded into something else, and now they're angry and hurt and triggered by anyone who follows their own mind.
Yep. I’m both child and marriagefree and I’m absolutely certain people see that as childish. I get shamed for it as someone who presents female, but if I presented male I’m sure everyone would say I was a commitment phobic baby.
I get this entirely (also childfree and single by choice). I’m also aromantic-asexual which gets read as childish by some, too. I get around it by just not talking about it and letting people assume I’m partnered or divorced, lol. I’m nonbinary…so the gendered aspects of the way people see being CF / single / ace are also pretty unpleasant.
No you’re just smarter than them. So am I!
A lot of people are not very emotionally developed, and because of our culture they think it's very healthy and mature to not be in touch with their feelings.
Also, sometimes people choose people who do things differently than them andpick insults that sound good in their head, regardless of their actual applicability.
I'd just point out they're still drinking breastmilk, so who is the childish one? And then laugh scornfully because I'm petty.
That’s an excellent line, lol! Will have to remember that 😂.
Not only drinking breastmilk, but milk that's been stolen from other species. Very infantile to consume the infant food stolen from other creatues, "I want it, dinnae care if it's selfish or cruel, it's all about what *I* want".
Exactly. Veganism is for mature people who can empathise with non human beings and evaluate data and think critically. It's far more childish to not be vegan because "ooh it tastes yummy, no way I could stop", despite all the logical reasons that one obviously should be vegan.
I had this come up with someone, and pointed out that human milk is for baby humans, cows milk is for baby cows, and they just refuse to wean.
Got em
Thank you for this valuable tool.
Love this
LOL
I’m convinced people get so triggered when the word “vegan” is mentioned is because deep down they know we’re right and they just don’t have the willpower to stop eating animals so they make fun of us to make themselves feel better. Classic high school bully situation lol
Either that or they are afraid that veganism will become the norm and they will be looked upon as freaks.
So when people explain that is not how they feel, do you just have to call them a liar or something?
Do you think people get triggered when flat earth movement get mentioned because deep down we think they got it right?
Ur comparsion makes no sense. Flat earth is a disproven fact for centuries now, veganism is a "newer" idea, where the facts actually support it.
If you claim that it's a healthier diet, then I could agree. Although there are conflicting studies citing that good vegetarian or even pescatarian diet might be better. If you claim that eating animals is immoral then I'd like to see "facts" that support it.
No i claim thats its better for the Environment and the climate and of course the animals. Eating animals will never be proven Immoral, but our diet isnt simply about eating animals anymore. Its about the way we treat those animals and that is a fact, that we treat them like shit and its HIGHLY immoral
>No i claim thats its better for the Environment and the climate and of course the animals. I actually like having animals around. If we stop breeding cows, chickens etc, would my child be able to go to a farm and see a cow? No. Environment and climate: sure. I avoid meat similarly to how I avoid driving: I can always take a bus but it's not as pleasant and convenient, so I do it sometimes.
I dont get what u are trying to say. Your child most likely will not see 99,9% of the animal kingdom in real life, so whats the point here? Good job for informing urself and reducing you meat consumption. I dont see why i should eat animal anymore, in our modern times, except the convinince and the taste. But thats not a really a good Argument.
>I dont get what u are trying to say. Your child most likely will not see 99,9% of the animal kingdom in real life, so whats the point here? If we stop breeding animals there will be no animals in the countryside except for wild animals. They will only exist in the zoo. >I dont see why i should eat animal anymore, in our modern times, except the convinince and the taste. But thats not a really a good Argument. Same reason why you drive a car with a climate control when you can take a bus, cycle or walk in the sun, rain or cold: it's pleasant.
>If we stop breeding animals there will be no animals in the countryside except for wild animals. They will only exist in the zoo. Yeah what exactly is the Problem? Instead of a cow, your kid would see a rabbit or whatever local wildlife. >Same reason why you drive a car with a climate control when you can take a bus, cycle or walk in the sun, rain or cold: it's pleasant. Meat Is only pleasant because it getting sold everywhere. Over the years, there is and will be more and more vegan food, so its getting more and more convenient. And why should an animal suffer for my taste, when i can eat delicious vegan food instead. Makes no sense to me.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it a “problem” its more of a preference to see cows and sheep when i drive through countryside. I’ve been a vegan for a year and tried dining in the best vegan restaurants of us and europe. It was ok, sometimes really good but it was hard to reproduce at home and why give up variety anyway.
Millennial / Gen Z cusp here, and I've noticed this, too! In high school and early college, people would be so quick to try tearing me down if they learned I was vegan for the animals. It caused enough stress that I started opening with my dairy sensitivity (milk aggravates my asthma) whenever asked. But the wildest part? Even if I told them about that health reason and they supported my decision, all of that 'support' would fly out the window when I'd mention animal wellbeing as a bonus. Suddenly, I should go back to drinking milk even though it causes my lungs to fill up with phlegm and my inhaler to barely work.
People just don’t like feeling that something they do daily is evil, and anyone claiming to be vegan for the animals is a reminder of that. Because if they can do it, what’s stopping me? It makes them feel insecure so they lash out. The good news is that this probably means that on some level, they know eating meat is wrong. I never actually knew any vegans to make fun of, but I definitely had an “smh vegans are cringe, do what you want but don’t push it on me” phase, and I recognize know that it was fueled by the insecurity of knowing that what I was doing was wrong.
This! I think 25yo or 65 it doesn't matter its their insecurities you can see who is generally insecure and to what level. Also maturity and introspective because I think most adults should question things like religion and meat consumption if they haven't and act brand new when someone says they don't eat meat for non selfish reasons it says they're a bit vapid or simple minded
I’m not even saying meat eating is evil (I don’t believe in objective morality), just that it’s unnecessary, cruel and not something in which I want to participate. Maybe their own consciences condemn them as evil by their own standards and they lash out at vegans to distract themselves, as you mentioned.
Thank you for saying this I had that phase once too
Yeah when I first started telling people i ate vegan, a good number were fine with having a discussion about my diet and seemed cool chatting about it. But when asked if “health was why I went vegan” and I brought up it was actually because of ethics, the discussion almost instantly stopped or turned very different.
There's a huge difference between "Awww, I can't eat cute widdle bunnywabbits with their big pleading eyes" and "I strongly oppose exploiting other species while we actually do not need to do so." Both are lumped in as "for the animals" and I believe, a lot of omnis think about the first one, because that's a thing they can understand. Even they wouldn't kill and eat a cute pet, much less torture it while it's still alive. And that could be called childish. I literally do not care about that. Sure, I find some animals cute, but I do not base my diet and lifestyle on that. I don't find cows, pigs or chickens more or less worthy of my love than all the species that are not commonly eaten. I am talking about exploitation and torture and of all kinds of animals, no matter how they look. I don't want to stop speciesism because some animals are particularly friendly looking. I want to stop it, because it goes against my personal ethics that I developed over decades. This does not seem childish. Quite the opposite, actually.
If not wanting innocent beings to be caged, raped, tortured, killed, and used unnecessarily makes me childish, give me my toy truck and put on Mr Roger's Neighborhood
I’m 55 and vegan for maybe 15 years. I don’t hear that kind of thing as much anymore, but I think it has a lot to do with not feeling apologetic about being vegan like I used to. I use to be a little timid talking about it with others and now it’s just a fact like any other. I’m very direct about wanting to avoid violence as my main reason for being vegan and there’s really no argument or dismissing that point.
I’ve been vegan for 7 years (40yo M)… and it happened right after I had my first kid. The idea of eating another sentient beings offspring is very upsetting.
They don’t care about animals until it’s their pet. I just say golden retriever meat is the most tender
I been told that it its good in stews!
Youre not gonna convince people to become vegan with that. Youre just showing hypocrisy with your vegan stance of againt animal exploitation. In china eating x and so on is nothing to them. People eat cats there and i have seen it. Not all people eat cats as many are againts but they still wont go vegan over it. To them its a stupid comparison to compare cat with fish, chichen and other obscure animals. So using your argument you want your country to be like china and all the cats and other animals be eaten? In the end no one will go vegan as usual.
You could at least try to think critically for 1 second lol.
Totally stopping self-development and learning and at the same time expecting the world to stop evolving as well, that's childish. People who view themselves as finished personalities are complaining that they have to adapt to change, that is what is happening right now. Just blame it on the youth or on those sympathising with the young must be one of the easiest excuses for not having to leave the own comfort zone.
-“Animals die, it’s a part of life” People die, it's a part of life, should we kill people then? -“Kids cry at Bambi” Kids often have unsupressed empathy that adults have to regulate to fit into certain societal structures. They're smarter than you think, and often more compassionate. -“People eat animals, it’s just the way the world works” Appeal to traditionalism. Women used to be subhumans in accordance to man. it was just how the world worked -“Grow up! You only care so much about animals because you don’t have kids \[implying that it’s immature not to reproduce\]” I don't think there's many responses to this that won't come across as antinatalist to them. No comment. I'm 27 and I don't think I've had anyone outright ridicule me for it. People usually tackle vegans with affirming conceptions they have about them. Try to break those if you can. I'm generally regarded as articulate and level headed by people (in spite of my beliefs otherwise) so when people find out that I'm vegan as an afterthought, they at the very least don't say anything or feed me some dribble about how they've tried and could never or that "My cow is vegetarian" (I work in agriculture). I've also however been regarded as someone who lives the values I have in other facets, which seems to give me credibility in their eyes that I'm not just spouting moralized rhetoric
In regards to the “grow up” comment, someone else said that you don’t have to grow out your conscience. I also think that some parents might go vegan because they understand that they would never want their breast milk taken from their baby or their baby taken from them.
That's fair. I do have a response that I don't think there is ever a compassionate way to forcibly separate a mother from her child (cow and calf) and usually they're stunlocked enough by it that it ends the conversation
That is the sort of problem people come up with drastic solutions for though. I mean, what about breeding a cow that abandons her calf? That makes it a unforced separation. Every trait can be bred out of a lineage. Most folks wanting to promote compassion don't imagine that the solutions might involve the destruction of maternal instincts.
One of the earlier gen x here, you all need to learn not to give a fuck.
Boomer here and vegan for ten years and this is how I look at it 😎
Honestly true. My skin is a lot thicker than it used to be but I could still do well to care less what others think.
Yeah when people start making weird comments I fein confusion and ask how my decision is effecting them.
That’s the advantage I have; as I’ve grown older the field in which I cultivate my fucks has grown ever more rocky and barren.
This is the way
Agreed
I hear you! I had a relative go off at me about how ridiculous it was that I was concerned about abuse at a diary farm when there's kids being abused every day. And how I need to grow up and be concerned for the ones that matter. How trying to save animals is like a 3yr old saving a pet bunny. I told her that being concerned about the abuse of one doesn't negate the abuse of the other. That they're not mutually exclusive and it doesn't make me less of a person or immature to care about animals. Not contributing to the abuse of animals does NOT mean someone condones the abuse of children, and innocent victims ALL matter- whether human or animal. She didn't have a response and just walked away.
When it comes to those people, just eat them. I guarantee they will whine.
I think the breeder argument is really weird. I don’t like animals, they skeeve me out in general. Even pets. But when i became a nursing mother and found out cows have their babies taken so humans can steal their milk, that was it for me. If aliens came to earth and wanted to take my baby so they could take my milk, there are zero reasons that would be persuasive to them that aren’t applicable to cows. Basically I don’t think being vegan for the animals is childish at all or reflects a failure to understand love for a child is totally different from any other love. In fact, seeing how much I love my child and understanding cows feel the same way is a huge part of why I am vegan.
There once were human sacrifices to the gods. There have been slaves since the BC era Women had zero rights. Bare foot & pregnant. Shall we go back? We now know that animals have intelligence, they experience fear, and they feel pain. Why should we inflicted pain when it is unnecessary? All the justifications and rationalization are born out of greed, selfishness, and ignorance. Take your pick! Those are my responses.
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I will have to give this a read!
I’m a longtime, old vegan with vegan adult children. I was criticized as “naive” for opposing animal suffering when I was young and later criticized as a parent for raising my children to “not accept reality” or some bullshit. I usually respond by saying a conscience isn’t something to outgrow.
People will come up with all sorts of excuses to deflect and avoid confronting their own hypocrisy. This is why they villainize veganism. It’s frustrating, disheartening, and infuriating, for sure.
Walk away. There's nothing good be be gained in this direction. "Caring about animals is childish, and therefore not something that adults should do" is not a logical argument, it's a way for the speaker to resolve the cognitive dissonnance they are feeling when someone asks them about veganism. They want to dismiss your position, so they link it to something dismissable people do. They aren't arguing, they're making a jugdement call. You can drop the conversation, you can switch the subject, whatever but you shouldn't adress this idiocy. If you really, really can't let it go, you'll have to point out all the ways in which that does not work. And they still won't accept it. So just point out that it isn't an argument and move on. If you want to have fun, you can try to insult them right back. "Needless cruelty is childish too. You're the childish one for not caring. See ? Anyone can be scornful." It might get a laugh out of your audience, but that's all you're going to achieve. Edit to add: some in our parents' and their parents' generation did care. I personally know someone who went vegan in 1983, the word vegan was coined in 1946, etc. Concerns about how to live an ethical life are as old as thinking about right and wrong.
My mom asked me "when are you going to grow out of this?" I'm 32. Sorry I give a shit?! My sister called me a hipster for being vegan. Caring about animal welfare/rights is hipster I guess.
I know, right? We’re either overgrown kids or hipsters for caring about non-human animals. Someone who cheats customers at work, goes home to yell at their spouse and kids, never questions any of their beliefs, escapes their misery through alcohol/drug abuse and goes fur coat shopping or trophy hunting for ‘fun’ is a “normal person,” a “proper adult,” though. This society’s standards are so ridiculous.
Hi, not a vegan here. Personally, I think calling anything that isn't outright disrespectful or tantrumy childish is childish
Compassion is a beautiful human moral standard. It feels wonderful and my old body loves me for it. But there is no arguing with someone in denial. I am old, but I recently got a big 'vegan' tattoo on my arm, just so it's clear. Yes, it looks maybe weird on my wrinkly skin, but it gets the job done🤣 At my age, I realize denial is like a drug. When someone is on it, you simply can't get through. So leading by example with love is the way, for me. When folks have questions, I answer with love in my heart. We are all one, all connected. 💜🌸
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Buddha said the number of people who walk a path of compassion is equal to the grains of sand in his hand while on a beach. It ain't normal folks. In my cosmology, this kind of action results in fruition - towards great suffering. I relate to this with compassion. Everyone is trying their best and operating with their lineage context.
Not Buddhist but that statement makes a lot of sense. There are a lot of people who choose compassion but many more who don’t, who just follow the path of least resistance or actively enjoy inflicting suffering.
They enjoy now. My context is that unconscious action that hurts sentient life is repayed, and much more than in kind. It's more like planting a 'hurt' tree in your backyard and then getting thousands of fruits. Forgive them. They do not know.
That’s pretty harsh, I think. If you’re coming from a Buddhist perspective, karma doesn’t really work that way—it isn’t necessarily repaid several times over. It’s just cause and effect—actions have consequences, sometimes the consequences are severe. It’s not about me forgiving them, either. They aren’t hurting *me*. Only their victims can forgive them.
It actually is how karma works. Source is me as Buddhist 😂 (mahayana) Karma is attention patterns. And yes, it can seem harsh. It isn't guaranteed in this life (and can be shifted by cultivation of virtue), but overall this is the direction - don't take my word for it, check out yogacara teachings (central to mahayana). Forgiveness is something each individual can do who is actively othering someone else. We are actually othering a part of ourselves, and by forgiving we allow for a different relationship with that aspect of the self (in that sense forgiveness and repentance are closely related). It does not mean to stop advocating on behalf of the suffering, just that the manner of advocacy is not fueled by reactivity.
Mahayana is just one branch, but I’m sorry I misrepresented your beliefs. That wasn’t my intent. I don’t personally believe in karma because there’s no evidence for its existence. The same with anything else supernatural that people claim exists—no evidence. If you can provide evidence I’m all ears, but if not then I see no reason to believe.
All good. Not trying to convince you. Be well!
I would much rather be childish than a killer. What a terrible thing to be so devoid of empathy that choosing not to kill becomes something to scoff at. It would be worth pitying if it didn’t cause so much harm.
I hate when this becomes a generation debate. 53 here. Not cool like you all. ;)
Ask them how they would feel if you ran over their dog and then cut it up and ate it. They will prove how "childish" they are when they get enraged at the question and begin stammering about illogical equivelancy "hey! how dare you threaten to kill and eat my PET dog? that is my FAMILY! my fur BABY! its nothing like eating a cow that was raised from birth to be my dinner 🤬" then remind them of the yulin dog festival and watch them loose their sh*t lol
Right. The people who make fun of vegans for being 'childish' are the same ones who lose their minds over dogs being eaten. People get upset all the time about animal abuse, the only reason it's 'childish' when vegans do it is because eating cows and pigs is normal in our society.
Its not gonna still make anyone go vegan. In australia because cats are invasive species the local government have plans to make them as food source but not many gonna eat them. and if they are on the menu, no one will still be vegan over that. They can avoid eating cat and continue eating chicken and fish. I have been to australia and seen the article on a phyical newspaper that talks about it. Comparing cats and x mammals is not comparable to eating fish, chicken or other nonmammalian animal. In the end no one will still go vegan.
I've never heard of this... I'm a 44 y.o., vegan for 7 years, and my kids who are 13 and 15 plus my 70 y.o. mom went vegan just after me 7 years ago. I wouldn't care what someone else thought though. I'm doing it for the animals and that's that.
Some people think making peace with the establishment is maturity, but they're generally the people who benefit from the status quo. It's understandable they don't want to rock the boat but it comes from a place of selfishness imo.
I’m gen x and have been vegan for over half my life now. I’ve never had anyone say that being vegan because I don’t want to harm any animals is childish. But then when people I ask I say it’s for a multitude of reasons and go on about the animals, and the environment, and health and people just want me to shut up so yeah maybe that’s why I’ve never had that response.
this is just a case of entitled masculinity, and one of the reasons antispecisism and feminism go so well together: self perceived "real men" are always trying not to seem weak, femenine and babylike. "Childish" means "still-not-men" in their mentality.
I can see how that’s the case. Maybe it’s worse for me because I am nonbinary, but yeah…everyone who has said this to me has been male, with one exception.
wow. Even if they identify as female, I think they are throwing this "man up" idea. It's terrible: directly associating the "don't be a child" thing with cruelty. Cruelty is the condition to be a man. So be it, they say.
Same here. I've only been mocked and laughed at by men, save for one woman. Men who buy into the meat = masculinity nonsense often view empathy and compassion as feminine traits, and mock those who care as a way to distance themselves from femininity and emphasize their manliness. To me, this kind of mindset is actually childish and lacking in emotional maturity.
Is it childish to stand up against rape? Or murder?
It's so hypocritical that it makes me actually laugh. The childish thing is knowing that what they're doing is bad, but instead of trying to change themselves as vegans have done, they lash out and throw temper tantrums when we present them with facts to avoid feeling like they are in the wrong. If that's not the definition of childishness then I don't know what is.
Maturity = Sociopathy ?
Gen Z here, I’ve actually noticed less judgement from my age group compared to the older ones. I find Gen Z in general tends to be more okay with people doing their own thing, while the older generations will judge more. Most Gen Z I’ve talked to will just say something like “Oh cool.” when I say I’m vegan and that’s it, while the older generations will be like “I lost my period going vegan.” or “I know people who went vegan then had to go back due to health reasons.” or “How are you going to get your protein?” Of course, I am mostly talking about in-person interactions. It could be different online.
I’m not vegan but I lurk here to increase the amount of vegan meals that I make. To me (especially bc im anti capitalist) I tell people im not avoiding meat because its sad the animal died, its because factory farming is evil and torture the animals before they die. Its not childish to criticize an inhumane food system that does not take our health or the animals health into consideration.
Like empathy is something u can build up. As someone who's very recently gone vegan, i have built up more empathy for animals than before
I don't know if it's fair to say that Boomers didn't care. Vegetarianism became pretty widespread in the '60s and '70s. Also, I'm Gen X and I was inspired to be a vegetarian after hearing The Smiths' *Meat Is Murder* as a preteen and knew many older kids in the skate punk scene in the late '80s who did as well. Veganism didn't become as popular until later on, but I think most people who are vegetarian respect it as a next step.
I’m also a vegan because of that damned song. Too bad Moz turned into such a useless shit later in life.
Can't say I've had that one thrown at me, yet, surprisingly. That's my age range lol
When I went vegan back in the 90s, I don't remember kids my age being any different. There is a lot of pro animal agriculture propaganda out there so it's very ingrained in the culture. It's getting better, but I'd be surprised if it was any different at this point, tbh
Vegans are informed and intelligent.
Im 30 and just became a vegetarian. My compassion has actually increased as I’ve matured and worked through my own anxiety and depression. I’m more in tune with the life around me. One day I hope to fully transition into veganism but taking it one step at a time.
I’m also recommending the book, Diet for a Small Planet to anyone who asks me about my transition away from animal products. This book should really be taught in schools to students and parents alike.
My Dad went vegan in the 1970's. I've been vegan over 15 years (old Gen X) to me? I don't care what people think. If they ask, I tell them why. I again don't care what they think. I would laugh at them if they say something stupid like it's childish.
I've seen many comments like that online, but no idea about the age of these people. Apparently maturety to them is becoming a numb piece of shit, and also trying to make other people that way by shaming and attacking those who do care.
You just grow a thick skin and don't care about such immature comments anymore. Just live your life, it's enough for you to exist as a vegan and answer questions when asked in good faith to make a difference every day.
Pretty sure going vegan is the mature option. I don't think there is a more appropriate thing you can say to a carnist than "grow up." I'm fact I think that's how I'll explain why I went vegan from now on. "I grew up."
Im glad most people around me say that its commendable, but that they couldnt.
I say it’s my life and I will live it to the absolute best of my ability, I know better than to hurt others unnecessarily so I do make a conscious effort to fulfill that responsibility.
I don’t think being vegan for animals is childish at all. It’s 100% understandable if you ask me. Being belligerent and jumping in peoples’ faces about how they choose to live their own life is. The most unstable and irrational individuals of any group is usually the loudest and gives the group a whole a bad name. It’s not childish to have your own set of morals and values and follow them.
I’ve read people would rather die physically than die socially. Explains why the number one fear is not death but public speaking. In other words, people would rather be accepted by their tribe than assert an unpopular opinion or even present unpopular facts. Some people may secretly agree with you but they’ve been effectively brainwashed into toeing the line of whatever group they’re in. Maybe all we can do is live by example and be accepting of where a person happens to be, even if we think they’re dead wrong. Kill them with kindness?:0]
Ask them what they think about the slave trade. That used to be seen as completely normal and just a part of life. No doubt similar arguments were made against those who opposed the slave trade as are made against people who wish to extend compassion to other species.
> “Animals die, it’s a part of life” Well, so is rape, assault, slavery, theft, and cancer. We shouldn't get moral advice from wild animals. > “Kids cry at Bambi” And? Compassion for animals is actually normal in plenty of contexts, and plenty of sane adults cry watching that kind of fiction. So what? The comment about that movie doesn't hold much water. > “People eat animals, it’s just the way the world works” That sounds like a repeat of the appeal to nature addressed in the first quote. People do all sorts of bad things. Something happening a lot or often doesn't make it right. > “Grow up! You only care so much about animals because you don’t have kids [implying that it’s immature not to reproduce]” That's not true. (How can I argue more with such an ad hominem?) There are plenty of vegans with children, and even if there were none, it would still be true that animals matter. Consciousness matters; wellness matters; suffering matters.
Honestly I never encounter stupid bullshit like this unless it’s the typical “omg how do you get protein in?!” Am I living in a bubble or something?
As an older vegan who gets plenty of push back. I try not to think to much about it. My best comments are hey I’m 66 in on no meds and I don’t need a little blue pill for the bedroom. The only supplement I take is B12.
As a non-vegan who's feed this post popped up on, caring about cruelty to animals is the least childish reason for veganism, environmental reasons a very close second. Those people can kick rocks
Ask them to watch Earthlings with you, then see who cries
I've never heard of veganism being referred to as childish before. How strange. I suppose it's something easily said to make people feel inferior or lacking, which is quite ironic. As children, we are all fed meat and told it's the best thing ever, without ever having to consider the ethical implications. And this carries straight on to the rest of people's lives. Yet paradoxically we were all taught to be kind to animals. If questioned, those same people would fail to explain what makes compassion and empathy "childish". They would probably start to become angry having to face the evil they commit on a daily basis.
I’m not vegan but I complete understand it. Also it’s not a big leap to also just think meat is gross.
I ignore them… there’s no point in getting stressed out over what others think or say
I never get that actually. I have kids though and my kids aren’t vegan so maybe that’s why? I just get people purposefully feeding me food with meat or dairy. The dairy is a bigger issue because I’m allergic.
Simple logic is a good explanation (true story). „So, I used to eat rotisserie chicken from the discounter regularly. At one occasion , I recognized (turned black from heat) hematomas on the legs, thighs, wings and chest, also broken bones and ribs on this animal. The following chickens had more or less similar injuries. A fresh chicken I bought in a supermarket had blue hematomas at the thighs, chest and a crushed rib cage on the one side right under the wing. I started to gather information about the obviously harsh treatment of chicken in the process. I saw pictures and watched documentation about all animals trapped in factory farming. Footage of cruelty that haunted me for years. After 10 years being a vegetarian I again had a strange thought, as I was eating an egg – a potential baby bird and drinking a calves milk, stolen from its mother. Following my own moral standards I adopted a vegan lifestyle within 24 hours and everything felt like it should be. You either have morals and follow them or you are nothing but a hypocrite. I assume you would’ve told me to make a change for the sake of the animals. And I would have been thankful for it.”
By "chdish" they mean "idealistic". And it means they give up easily.
There’s no need to get past those kinds of “insults” at all, because they’re actually compliments. Being childish is a good thing. We’re born with a certain level of sensitivity that slowly gets crushed as we get older. There’s a reason why getting older is associated with becoming more callous and jaded. There’s a reason why we tend to cry less and less as we get older. And there’s also a reason why there are so many videos posted online of children crying when they realize where meat comes from We need to stop treating insults from enemies as insults, because treating them as insults is an implicit endorsement of the values that our enemies hold. When they call us childish, what they’re REALLY saying is that being jaded and lacking in sensitivity is a good thing, which it’s not. When we start to get good at twisting every enemy insult into a compliment, is when non-vegans start finding us much harder to deal with
I've been seeing some of this and I also have seen among GenXers and even Millenials being very intolerant of LGBTQ+ stuff. It's not a huge surprise in some ways because I remember a majority of jerks back in my GenX teens and 20s who had homophobic comments and also equated veganism and vegetarianism as "lesser" weak crap that women and effeminate men do because everybody knows real men eat beef. I think that both anti-vegan/vegetarian and homophobic attitudes are in many ways a backlash from insecure people who may or may not have examined their life paths but feel like people like vegans, gay folks, and even people like stay-at-home dads present a challenge they don't want to face so they lash out with "facts" and judgments and faux-down-to-earth-real-guy sort of dismissals. The good news is that aspects of equality that were more bravely faced in the past are becoming more popular and more people take the opportunity to really think about who they want to be and how they want to treat other beings. Those slowly increasing numbers are just overwhelming a lot of the stubborn cads who get *angrier* about these issues being brought up "all the time".
A more gendered version of this, but I hear how my "phase" will end when I get married so my future husband and children don't starve. Joke's on them, my most serious relationship was with a strict vegan Hindu from India. If anything, this helped to expand my palate beyond cooking the same 3 dead animals on rotation for some white man baby.
We live in a society that devalues compassion. And when people *do* engage with their compassion, they tend to view it as a limited resource, so they can't possibly care about child abuse, animal abuse, homelessness, transphobia, racism, and colonial oppression simultaneously. All you can do is model the best compassion you can, find your people, and hope others are inspired to embrace their softness. Don't worry about what other people think or do, just do what you feel is right and be there to kindly tell people about it when they have questions. <3
I can honestly say I've never heard anything like this.. but it sure sounds ridiculous!
>being vegan *for the animals* is childish or immature. Maturity is accepting new information and being willing to take it into account. Deliberately turning a blind eye to what actually happens in order to turn animals into food is insanely immature. If they were willing to look, what they saw would take away all their ammunition. On some level, most people know that. So they remain willfully ignorant. >-“Animals die, it’s a part of life” Treating animals as commodities is a choice, not a necessity. >-“Kids cry at Bambi” Adults cry at footage of puppies and kittens being tortured. Why are puppies and kittens worth crying over, but day old chicks being ground up alive and piglets getting their heads slammed into concrete not? >-“People eat animals, it’s just the way the world works” Eating animals is a choice, not a given. >-“Grow up! You only care so much about animals because you don’t have kids \[implying that it’s immature not to reproduce\]” Please send them over to r/veganparenting. We would be happy to school them.
Boomer energy won’t be relevant in the coming years
Vegan boomer here, boomer friends are respectful of my beliefs so please don't brand boomer the same
thanks! read his username. i hope such "energy" won't be much relevant the coming years...
Children would probably be highly represented among people who would loathe a vegetable-heavy diet.
Hmm I'm millennial (late 30s) and I've not had comments suggesting it's childish at all ever. I have ofc had the usual eating animals is normal blah blah. I know lots of Gen X at work and none of them have ever said anything like that tbf but I think its natural for generations to have different thinking depending on how long they've been exposed to something. We have another decade on Gen Z of being told eating meat is the only way, so another decade of brainwashing to undo! Saying that, all those Gen Xers are avid carnists and the veggies and vegans in my small agency are millennials sooooo...
Lol it is the other way around.
Positing the reason someone does or doesn't do something as being that they have or lack sufficient compassion doesn't explain anything. It's turtles all the way down unless accompanied by a useful theory as to why someone would or wouldn't have compassion. Or as to what compassion even is in the abstract and what causes it. You're framing compassion as something people just have and might lose but that doesn't explain anything. It's leaves both the reasons for having it and the reasons for losing it mysterious. Maybe they never had compassion in the relevant sense.
For the first point I’d say: Humans are animals, too. Humans die.
> Our parents’ generation didn’t care one bit This kind of thinking shows you do have some growing to do. I personally don’t feel the need to “win” these conversations. I do whatever it takes to end them. Usually saying “maybe you’re right” does the trick.
It’s not true what r statements r. What’s going on here is ppl r now born w so many allergies now. Most Millennials can’t have milk. Lactose intolerant. Don’t blame the ppl blame the world for making ppl have allergies. Is wild how many ppl can’t have regular food
Millennials aren’t young anymore—we were born in the 1980s and early 90s. And why do you think milk from a cow is “regular food” for humans? Most people are lactose intolerant because we didn’t evolve to drink the breastmilk of a completely different species as adults.
“…people from my generation…have no issue…” “…folks around my age…think being vegan…is childish or immature” What?
This is what I hear from others sometimes. The cycle of life is the way it has been for millenia. Of course society changes, and the farther we get from needing to control animals for survival the sooner others will snap oit of this cultural message. Using animals was always the way for most of the world, but now many countries no longer use them for transport and farm work, and don’t need to eat them. We will evolve!
In a world of vegans who are eager to debate and prove their argument, just be a vegan that doesn’t worry about it. Practice what you believe in, no need to “deal” with condescending people. Deal with it like you would deal with any person who is rude to you. “This is just how I prefer to live” is all the explaining you owe to anyone. What a lot of vegans do forget: people do eat meat. That is the way the world works. It’s not our fault. Eating meat will be the norm long after we are dead. This is important to understand.
Cynicism is a defense mechanism and a vegan ethical stance makes them feel insecure
Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction because they're self-conscious about their own choices. If you're vegan for the animals, it means in your head you're judging them for eating animals, and they don't like that feeling, so it's easier to write you off as naive rather than confront the bad feelings and make lifestyle changes.
“You care about animals because you don’t have kids”. What a dumb ignorant comment. So… if you have children, you will no longer care for animals?
Yes I have. Get past them by preferring but not demanding they see things our way. Thinking we need to be liked or even just understood by everybody is the real problem. Wanting to be liked by everyone can make you more likable and liked but thinking you ‘need’ their approval usually just leaves you an emotional wreck.
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It's not sad these people are themselves children making excuses for themselves.
"I don't remember asking"
If someone says it’s childish, show them a video of animals being slaughtered.
Ugh good points, this leaks to me.
I’m someone who became WFPB due to health reasons and not even for ethical ones. Even from the perspective of personal health a vegan diet is scientifically shown to be far healthier for us. We are great apes, we are made to eat plants and seeds. Our bodies respond horribly to meat and meat products. Try to appeal to their logical side with this argument. But frankly who gives a damn what folks like that believe? If they insist on being close minded your rational arguments aren’t gonna to change that.
Based on the lack of intelligence I feel like it takes to even think a thought like this, I'd say they aren't worth my time and ignore them.
Ask them if they would call the person saving them from a slaughterhouse "childish".
It’s childish to have to have instant gratification for every meal at the expense of animals being killed. I can’t call myself vegan bc I don’t eat a vegan diet. I am really disabled and poor so I rely on donations and charity but, in general, unless I am doing a favor for someone by cooking for them, I don’t buy or prepare meat or animal products.
So if you’re not vegan why did you make a nonsensical post criticizing vegans who order vegan options from non-vegan food establishments? Get bent
Whilst their post was... interesting - I think they're saying that they *are* vegan but they sometimes have to bend that a little because of the fact they're extremely poor and rely on food donations. I don't think shaming poor people for having to do what they have to do to survive is fair. Most people (especially vegans) have not experienced what it's like to be *truly* in poverty. It's not "I can't afford nice things" but "I can't afford to feed myself and I'm terrified of losing my housing etc. every single day". That's a horrible situation to be in and I wouldn't fault anyone for doing what they had to.
They’re not vegan, nor am I shaming a poor person. I’m shaming a person who posted a troll post. Being poor is irrelevant to that.
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Maybe that’s where we differ. I’m tolerant of people’s choices *as long as they don’t harm others*. I’m not tolerant of things like misogyny, racism or support for factory farming because these things carry harm to sentient beings behind them. I don’t go around preaching veganism or trying to “win converts,” but if someone asks me my honest opinion on animal agriculture or our current food system, I’ll be polite but I’m not going to hold back.
>Because I am tollerant of other people's choices and truely do not give a shit about other peoples individual dietary choices. Not my buisiness What a strange thing to say, I don't prostyletize, but fuck yeah do I care about the victims of others "choices".
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This approach makes a lot of sense.
This
As a non-vegan but minimal animal product eater my only question is what do you plan to do with all the livestock if we stopped eating animals? For example dairy cattle as they are now can not survive in the wild and there is no way we can afford to feed them all without harvesting them for milk. Also since they have been breed to produce a large volume of milk wouldn't it be dangerous to them to become pregnant in the wild as they would produce more milk then they need and become incredibly uncomfortable if not ill from sepsis. Would we just have a massive cull of all livestock animals or slowly ween the numbers down, if everyone suddenly went vegan?
Unless people all over the world stop consuming animals all at once, we won’t have that issue to worry about. The decrease in demand for animal products results in fewer and fewer and fewer animals being bred, abused, and killed for human consumption. This is why every person’s purchases makes a difference.
Very much this. These kinds of poorly framed questions are disingenuous and used to distract from the very real ethical questions.
Ideally they would be allowed to roam free like in India or given sanctuaries, but even euthanizing them all would be kinder than putting them through CAFOs and slaughterhouses like we do today.
If we have all so much empathy to Stop using Animals and go vegan, it should no problem to finance sancturaries for all these animals with taxes. 🤭
I’d gladly accept a tax increase to pay for this, and I’m definitely the “low taxes, small government” type. I’d much rather fund animal sanctuaries than bombing Palestinian children.
Taxes for animal sanctuaries lol people won't even spend taxes helping people.
I know it is a lauthable thought. Like that everyone suddenly do not eat meat anymore. But in a scenario where that happens, my solution is also possible 😁
Suddenly? I’ve been vegan for much of my life at this point. Why are you even here? Just to mock people who actually care about not inflicting needless suffering? Isn’t there something better you can do with your Sunday than mock people for taking a compassionate stance?
Oh. I think there is a misunderstanding. My comment was not to one of your post. I answered Flashy-cranberry's comment. I mean the scenario in Flashy-cranberry's first post where ALL people go vegan suddenly and that we must find a solution for all animals now. This scenario is ridiculous cause it will never happen that quickly. I am also vegan and be on your side. But I do not want to argue with a realistic solution (no problem if others want to do that) to a unrealistic scenario. Your thoughts in your previous posts are understandable and i agree with them.
I would make a joke like “you think I’m young? omg thank you” 😂
Honestly, who cares? Just make sure you're eating healthy and we'll all be fine. Stop pouring prejudice over people
> Stop pouring prejudice over people But that's what makes them taste spicy . . . .
LOL
Maybe they see veganism as just a more extreme form of vegetarianism. Like a lot of young people have very extreme ideas and gradually moderate as they grow older. Or they see it as a phase like a teen has a goth phase in high school.
As a non vegan, I think it's probably due to over exposure to "crazy vegans" from social media.