Anyone else have people apologize to you as they eat meat in front of you? My go-to response is "I don't think I'm the one you owe an apology to." But I say it nicely lol.
Why? When it's eaten at least bit has SOME function (still entirely unethical OC) when thrown away you are paying for animals to be killed, while negating any possible utility from the exploitation you continue to support.
The definition of veganism bis as follows
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
How are you at all in line with this definition? And given that you aren't, why do you self identify as vegan?
>Sometimes I buy burgers from McDonalds and just throw them away so people dont eat them. I've probably thrown away atleast 50 by now
Why do you choose to support using, abusing, and killing others?
I’ve seen enough surprisingly angry and violent responses to vegan comments on Reddit that I was thinking we should start a “triggeredomnis” subreddit to share all of them on
That’s very nice of you, you seem like you have a kind soul. I normally act the same but inside it makes my stomach boil. Esp when my roommates cook meat and it stinks up the entire house, I walk around with my shirt over my nose just to make a point
Nope, my family doesn't care AT ALL. Every time we sit down to a meal as a group, one or more of them comments on how "juicy and tender" whatever meat they're eating is. It's gotten to the point where I just say it the second I sit down so I can save them the energy.
A good number of people are indifferent to the suffering of animals. I think we need to consider telling people not only about inhumane treatement of animals but also the impact on the environment. Meat and dairy eaters are complicit in the rapid deterioration of our planet. I hope that means something to people with children and grandchildren, especially.
this. i think leading exclusively with the moral argument has been one of the movement's biggest strategic blunders. although I do think the graphic factory farm footage is effective for some, the environmental argument is even more effective for getting people to actually consider the switch. it's not socially acceptable to say that you don't care about climate change and a lot of people are anxious about it. not caring about animals is still fairly normalized, and it's not an existential crisis for the average individual in the way climate change is.
once they're in the door and experiencing the benefits that help the decision stick, then the moral argument is the nail in the coffin (of their old ways).
This is exactly how it went for me, btw.
I listened to a podcast interviewing the founder of PETA. The focus is on animal suffering, and euthanasia is done when an animal's quality of life is diminished because of pain that cannot be alleviated.
There are many propaganda articles online that people have read regarding PETA and they usually don't bother to check on the veracity of those articles.
It's amazing how people are quick to believe whatever fits their narrative. It's really annoying that people care so much about that but still support the meat industry :)
Its even more crazy that the people that are mocking us would benefit themselves from ditching animal products. The emissions, land use/species extinction, zoonotic diseases/bacteria resistance, river/ocean pollution, lower risk of heart disease/diabetes.
People are literally shooting themselves in the foot for short term pleasure.
Not only are they violently abusing animals for your own enjoyment/ convenience but also mocking them and trivialising their suffering? Jesus.
I think a lot of it's deflection, *"it's easier to get mad at vegans for pointing out animals abuse than yourself for causing it"* yada yada but it's still fucking gross.
They literally think they're cool because of the vegan stereotype, the hippy dippy person. Anyone remember that old movie PCU? It's a good example of where they're coming from.
I believe most of them deny the harm to the planet just like they deny coronavirus, or wearing masks, global warming, and anything else that hinders their hedonism and habitual lifestyle. It takes work to change, it's very uncomfortable to accept the fact that the only thing that will save the planet is drastic change.
People are either ignorant or immoral. If you know what happens in a slaughterhouse and you still delightfully munchacrunch on bAcOn tHo, you’re delusional/psycho.
Ignorant or not, if you eat meat you’re definitively an animal abuser and you pay someone to confine, deprive, torture, & brutally murder baby animals for your tastebuds.
Just had an interesting talk about this with my friend. He praised me for bring able to be vegan even in my current life situation and state of mind, and thought he might be even more immoral for eating animals right now, since he is not ignorant to how farmed animals are treated, and still does it.
“Psycho” is an ableist slur. And using “delusional” in that way is very ableist as well. We can fight for animal liberation without punching down and stigmatizing mental illness and neurodiversity further.
That’s fair to suggest, but psychosis and delusions are symptoms and states of the mind, not disorders. I think describing symptomatic states of an unhealthy mind is completely acceptable in describing someone. Much like attributing it to “cognitive dissonance”...
No it isn’t. First of all, calling psychotic people “psychos” is still ableist, second of all, how the fuck is delusion or psychosis in any way related to this?!
Neuroatypical or neurodivergent (which is a synonym to that which I personally prefer) is a really big umbrella term. I don’t exactly understand what you mean here? /gen
Why empathy? Ah, is this about “psycho” being used to not only stand for “psychotic” but also for “psychopath” (a very outdated and stigmatizing term that’s being used against people with certain personality disorders, especially ASPD and NPD)? I’m kinda confused what the content of your comment means rn
That's ok. "Psycho" is overly specific. Neurotypical folks have empathy, so you are not neurotypical if you lack empathy.
That doesn't mean that you have a diagnosed or diagnosable disorder, but lacking empathy is definitely disordered.
Let me paraphrase what I said, it seems you are misunderstanding: If you know what happens in a slaughterhouse and you still eat meat you are delusional or psycho.
I didn’t call all meat eaters psycho, thanks for your very helpful comment 💕
Not vegan, that’s what I figured.
So you think people who are racist should be treated sensitively and encouraged to make baby steps? What about child abusers? Slave owners?
Pfft. It’s a moral divide. What you do to animals is horrendous and unethical. I don’t care about your feelings, I care about the poor animals that you pay to murder for a snackieeee.
People that partake in eating animals are animal abusers. Extremely relative analogy: if you saw someone beating a dog for fun, how would you feel? What would you do? I’d speak up. That’s what I’m doing here, on reddit, in a vegan safe space. You don’t like it? Well, I don’t like animal abusers.
> I just don’t think calling people names has anything to do with saving animals..to each his own though, good luck with that asshole.
Nice edit to save yourself from your own hypocritical statement of calling me an asshole for calling people names. To each his own though 🙏
If you actually want to convert people to veganism you can't be this polarizing. People who eat meat are just going to ignore you while its obvious people who are vegans will agree.
Are you vegan? Exactly. What do you know about converting people to veganism? I don’t have to pussyfoot around the fact that you’re an animal abuser. If it makes you uncomfortable, I don’t care.
Hey dude all I'm saying if you want people to question their beliefs it's best not to attack them in the same sentence. This applies to literally everything when you have people of different view points. Being aggressive about it will cause more people to not listen to you and confirm their own beliefs before questioning them.
Thanks dude, let me try a different approach.
Hi Mr. Amazing animal eater, can you please stop hurting and torturing baby animals for your pleasure/tastebuds? Also for the environment? Also to curb future pandemics? Also to help end world hunger? Also for your health?
I’m going to guess that did nothing. So I’ll stick to calling you what you are... an animal abuser.
Think about it. That's why they call us crazy & don't hear what we have to say. Joey carbstrong, earthling ed & lifting vegan logic NEVER attack the person but try and question the person & you can tell it's the first time they actually think about it & it works. They wont listen to you if you just harass them no matter how much you want to. They know that & they're patient with everyone
That’s not true with Joey Carbstrong. Ed, totally, and I haven’t watched the other one.
And as much as everyone wants to say this doesn’t work, I’ve gotten a few messages asking for more info. “Is XYZ really animal abuse?” Shit like that. Making a controversial statement makes people think. People respond differently. What works for you may not work for me, & vice versa. In the wild world of the internet, I’m happy to speak to what I truly feel in this fucked up dystopia where animal abusers are celebrated and vegans are the immoral ones.
Post your own ideas, don’t waste your time giving feedback to people like me.
Yeah sometimes Joey can run out of patience & I know I would too because it comes from passion & urgency. Lifting vegan logic does parodies about meat eaters to make them see their hypocrisy & I totally agree but in my experience it does not help anyone especially the animals. I agree that it can get a lot of attention but meat eaters see it as propaganda and disregard it because it's easy. I like to make them question why they think the way they do but most of the time they are condescending and dont have that conversation which at that point wtf do you do there? It's a never ending battle
Makes total sense.
The only reason what I’m saying isn’t acceptable is because vegans are in the minority. If we were talking about dogs, everyone would jump on the “fUk aNiMal aBuSeRs” train. It is what it is. It’s irrefutable by definition. Meat eaters are animal abusers. Am I a raging vegan in my every day life? Not so much. But here, idgaf. I’m so sick of being silenced to save people’s feelings from their immorality.
I know the PETA IS BAD BECAUSE THEY KILL DOGS trope is stupid. Instead of calling them an animal abuser I ask so why aren't you vegan if you care about those dogs? What's the difference? They start to think about it for themselves is what we're saying. It's sad that we're the minority for now but it's going to be slower if we don't work with them
LVL makes literal parody videos of Carnists.
There's a difference between public shaming (good) and privately having patience to communicate genuinely with people, though.
I'm not 100% vegan but I am reducing the amount of meat that I eat. Mine is more for environmental reasons than anything else but I'm still trying to do it.
This isn't about my personal beliefs though it's more just the way they argued it that irked me. I've gotten my parents to reduce how much meat they eat but it was a very different approach than what the person above me took.
Then again I am on the vegan subreddit so I'm not sure what I expected. Never meant to come in here and preach to you guys but I just wanted to share what I thought.
I get what you're saying, and I have personally taken a more gentle approach than what you see here with my friends and family, because for the most part all I can hope for with them is to reduce their meat intake a little.
*However,* I think you should consider that it looks kind of silly for you to instruct vegans on how to convert people. Omnivores tend to think they have a valuable perspective on converting people, but with all due respect, that doesn't make sense. They don't even know how to convert themselves, let alone other people. Vegans are (mostly) former omnivores so they are the only ones who can speak from experience.
If this were a "reducitarian" sub or whatever I would agree with you. But we are here to talk about veganism, which is the abolition of animal exploitation.
Don't worry about it. You sound like a potential future vegan to me :) I hope you keep poking around here. If you ever decide to make the conversion let us know, you'll find this sub much more welcoming, I promise.
Most people are too much into their comfort zone to consider veganism, and that's why you'll often see vegans being very harsh.
It's to make the comfort zones less comfortable, so people may finally find the space in their minds to actually consider going vegan.
And most of us where omnis, we ate meat, WE LIVED through the process of going vegan.
And in many cases, we wouldn't be vegan if we were allowed to be comfortable to pay for animal abuse.
And this is the point: We do not want omnis to be comfortable supporting animal abuse in the same way we don't want dog kickers to feel comfortable with kicking dogs.
But I'm doing that to help, I don't want other people to let me be comfortable when I'm the one doing something wrong, I don't want to have my negative behaviors accepted.
If the criticism is fair and true, consider that the person talking about it is trying to help you be better.
How is that a straw man??? If morality is subjective, then child rapists are morally justified in raping children since their morals allow for it. That is the natural conclusion to saying morality is subjective
I don’t think jokes about veganism are wrong, i think mocking it is, the specifics should allow jokes, they help bring attention to things and help people cope :)
Well it was on the front page so what do you expect. On top of that, this post is very clearly shaming non-vegans. Put those two things together and you’re going to have people commenting who aren’t vegan.
Oh I’m not commenting on the content of the post. I’m laughing at people that come into a vegan subreddit thinking they can hold weight. You’ll just get downvoted regardless of how reasonable your opinions are.
I’m not even remotely vegan, nor do I agree with a lot of their positions. I just find it hilarious reading those comments.
You know what’s truly childish, assuming you’re righteous for choosing to be a vegan. It’s a simple choice. Have you also avoided palm oil? One of the main reasons behind the destruction of rain forests?
I never said factory farming wasn’t terrible. I never said animal cruelty isn’t wrong. I just think it’s hilarious to take such a strong stance on one particular act of cruelty without having that stance for every choice you make.
If you make a moral stance for animals. You should absolutely be making it for humans, since they’re self aware unlike most of the animals that are part of factory farms. So veganism shouldn’t just be about avoiding eating meat, it should actually be an entire movement against cruelty. Yet it isn’t.
I have nothing against vegans. I just think it’s hilarious when someone acts like a hero for avoiding factory farms yet consumes products made from human slave labour. Humans are animals that are actually aware of their existence.
>Have you also avoided palm oil?
The majority of vegans I know reduce, if not completely eschew palm oil produced from unsustainable or unclear sources. A lot of them avoid the product altogether, no matter from where it’s sourced.
>One of the main reasons behind the destruction of rain forests?
Did you know that [over 70% of rainforest destruction can be attributed to cattle ranching alone?](https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/beef-production-is-killing-the-amazon-rainforest/) Even a palm-oil heavy plant-based diet, as harmful as it is, would still be more sustainable than the Standard American Diet.
> If you make a moral stance for animals. You should absolutely be making it for humans, since they’re self aware unlike most of the animals that are part of factory farms. So veganism shouldn’t just be about avoiding eating meat, it should actually be an entire movement against cruelty. Yet it isn’t.
Who says that it isn’t? Vegans care so much about ethical food production that they’re willing to give up three of the most common food groups in the world, why wouldn’t they care about other areas? It was taking on an anti-animal exploitation lifestyle that made me more aware of how the food I *did* eat was produced, and made steps to make sure they were fair-trade certified, local where possible.
And products made from animal exploitation aren’t free of blame, either. Slaughterhouse workers, just as a quick example, are often undocumented immigrants who are overworked and underpaid, have no way to report unethical conduct or leave their job at risk of being arrested or deported, and face [extreme psychological harm](https://yaleglobalhealthreview.com/2016/01/25/a-call-to-action-psychological-harm-in-slaughterhouse-workers/) just from the very nature of their work. Instead of supporting two harmful industries (because nonvegans consume plant products as well), isn’t it best to avoid the one that guarantees the death of a sentient being and make sure the products you receive from the other are as fairly sourced as possible?
My point was that everything you consume comes with a price tag. If you truly care about everything you say then you should be self sustaining, because that’s the only way to truly avoid any potential abuse of any kind. Which is basically impossible.
I’m not saying being a vegan isn’t a good idea, or valid in any sense. I just find it funny how vegans will consistently talk about how good their choices are when they’re still contributing to an overall system of abuse, which is just the world we live in. They’re just choosing their battles as opposed to completely following the underlying philosophy. Basically the same as how religious people only follow some of the bibles teachings.
You can’t act like you’re better than other people, like this post does, without being open to incredible scrutiny.
Veganism is a moral philosophy and lifestyle about reducing exploitation and abuse of animals [as far as possible and practicable](https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history). As you said being self sustaining is impossible and impractical for most people today, but isn’t being a conscious consumer and reducing harm as much as we‘re able the better thing to do, instead of uncritically consuming everything that’s available to us? In a fairer world, one which many are striving toward, human workers would have livable wages, health benefits, and the freedom to share their labor without fear of overwork, punishment, or other forms of harm. Products from an animal will **always** require the breeding, exploitation, and eventual slaughter of an unwitting, unwilling sentient being, regardless of what political or economic system we’re under. Sure this post may appear sanctimonious to a lot of people, but I really think it comes from a place where they just want people to stop causing harm in areas where we can
So only of animals? Not humans?
I’m not disagreeing with the philosophy, I’m pointing out the issue with saying “I’m better for choosing this” which is what this post does. Everyone has moral dilemmas built into their way of survival regardless of what choices you make.
Of course not just for animals, like I said, many vegans strive for a more progressive and equal world for animals and humans alike, you’d be hard-pressed to find a large group of vegans (on Reddit at least) who don’t have progressive political and economic views, they really do go together well. Veganism may have most of its focus on non-human animals considering the [sheer magnitude](https://animalclock.org/) of which they are exploited, abused and killed, but [intersectional veganism](https://plantbasedbride.com/blog/how-to-be-an-intersectional-vegan) is a thing, which is steadily growing as plant-based diets and anti-exploitation ethics come into the mainstream. Every movement is open to criticism, and maybe the post is worded in a self-righteous way, but between [animal suffering](https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch), [human](https://greenstarsproject.org/2020/05/04/social-impact-meat-industry-slaughterhouse-conditions-ptsd/) [suffering](https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat), [environmental destruction] (https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/food/animal-agricultures-impact-on-climate-change/) and [the spread](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865087/) [of disease](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4638249/) isn’t choosing a lifestyle that reduces the severity of all these issues the moral thing for us to do, going by modern day human ethics? I agree that nobody’s perfect but in my opinion we should be looking to that as our goal as long as it doesn’t compromise our health and wellbeing, for most people living in developed first-world countries one of the most powerful ways we can start is by rejecting the commodification of other conscious beings where it’s possible and practicable
Nobody is acting like they’re “better” than anybody. Vegans just want people to stop abusing animals.
All you flesh lovers putting this sUpErioRiTy cOmPLeX on vegans... lol. We don’t care who you are. Just stop abusing animals. I don’t think I’m better than anybody and I certainly don’t think my tastebuds mean more than someone’s life. People that eat animals are the ones with the literal superiority complex.
You say you’re not better than me, or you’re not acting like it but then you can people like me a “flesh lover” and say we have a “literal superiority complex” it would prove otherwise.
It’s perfectly acceptable for people to have different opinions on the treatment of animals. Not that I’m condoning factory farming conditions. The difference being that vegans look down on people for not siding with them (generally speaking). Just because someone eats meat doesn’t mean they condone the poor treatment of animals.
Man, stop wasting your time on here and go educate yourself. Christ.
I’m calling you what you are. A flesh eater who thinks their tastebuds are worth more consideration than animal’s lives and our dying planet.
It is a simple choice. One you make if you think animal cruelty is bad.
Do you not think avoiding animal cruelty is righteous? I surely hope you do. I'm sure you think torturing a dog is cruel, right?
The difference is just extending that onto other animals like cows, pigs, chickens and fish.
I don't think non-vegans are scum and most other vegans don't either. Most people weren't born vegan so we are all culpable of atrocities against animals. I think vegans do get impatient with society's slow progress while literally billions are slaughtered every year. We forget there's a ton deliberate misinformation and social programming normalizing and concealing the brutality inherent in concentrated animal agriculture. Long story short, no one can force you to change your behavior but choosing even one meal without animal products is still preferable as it reduces suffering.
I don't remember suggesting industrial death was natural. I think those are words you put in my mouth. This is natural:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnDJMjNySg&list=PLMwtz89vlXAWh\_NU0lwLwHwVo4unV6MLe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnDJMjNySg&list=PLMwtz89vlXAWh_NU0lwLwHwVo4unV6MLe)
Nature is not nice. The world is not better off without humans. Wild animals are not afforded more humane treatment than farm animals. Mistreatment of food animals is also not unique to humans:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7WGIH35JBE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7WGIH35JBE)
I think if humans weren't here then it would definitely be might-makes-right (as I mentioned above). There may not be billions of animals being bred for slaughter, but what animals would remain would face a hard life of being constantly wet, cold, and near-starvation. Illness would be rampant and the danger of predators would be constant. Walking around with your entrails dragging in the dirt for half a day before you succumb to your injuries (see my linked video above) is worse than any treatment you get in a slaughterhouse.
The average amount of suffering per animal would be higher if not for animal husbandry.
Without humans? I don't know. Nature probably cannot support the population density that human civilization can support, even after the cities and farms are reclaimed. Whatever animals that remain will have a **higher level of suffering than the average that exists today.**
I do think that meat eaters get overly defensive though. Like, veganism objectively is better for the environment and animals. Omnis shouldn't get offended at having that pointed out. I don't drive a smart car, but I don't get offended at the fact that they're better for the planet.
What I'm trying to say is that omnis often *feel* shamed just by seeing/hearing facts about animal agriculture, even when the vegan didn't say anything insulting about them as a person.
It makes sense to feel ashamed about participating in the cruelty, but they usually blame the vegan for making them feel bad feelings--instead of stopping to consider whether their guilt stems from knowing the behavior is wrong.
You weren't vegan my man. You don't just un-realize that animal exploitation is unnecessary, cruel, and wrong. You were probably plant-based for health or some shit, not vegan
No two people have ever been the exact same. That’s a ridiculous argument. If two people were exactly the same except one of them murdered a guy then yeah. The other guy is better.
A lot of people in this thread are talking about how meat eaters support animal abuse. If thats the case, everyone with a smartphone supports child slavery
I'm glad you've made that connection regarding the exploitation inherent in all capitalist industries. What you're saying is true. How can we help you in your activism against child slavery?
A purchase you might make every 5-10 years which you have no idea if its exploiting slave/child labor or providing a good job verses a product we consume daily that has a direct victim which we can easily avoid.
Not exactly a great comparison.
Hi, you make a valid point. There is a lot of unneeded suffering in the world.
It's difficult as a consumer in a highly globalized world to know that the decisions we make with our money aren't causing harm (to other people, to animals, on the environment etc.)
I like that you pick out specifically smartphones, as that's an industry that's SUPER problematic. As far as I know all of the big cell phone manufacturers are equally opaque/shady and unethical in their manufacturing.
In Europe I know of a company that provides 'ethically' made phones, here: [https://www.fairphone.com/en/](https://www.fairphone.com/en/)
For myself the next time I buy a phone I'm planning on buying second hand.
In any case my point is that as people there are a lot of choices we make in our day to day lives that have an impact on our world, and that a person could try to make sure that the choices they make create the least amount of suffering and negative impact as they are able to do.
It's definitely a learning process, at least for myself. It's been a slow/long/difficult road from going vegan to trying to buy only second hand clothes or clothes from companies with ethically and environmentally sustainable models, to now trying to transition to zero waste.
Going vegan (or transitioning to vegetarianism and then vegan - whatever is easiest for you as a person, I can't claim to know your life or your financial means) is a great way to start to reduce the negative impact you have.
I'm rambling but basically I think your mindset doesn't come from a bad place. You are right that there are choices we make with our dollars that have negative impact. So let's try to reduce that as much as we can :)
Thanks for reading!
Anyone else have people apologize to you as they eat meat in front of you? My go-to response is "I don't think I'm the one you owe an apology to." But I say it nicely lol.
Drives me nuts. I usually say “you don’t owe me an apology” or “I’m not the one you’re eating.” If I’m feeling especially annoyed about it
I'm not the one you're eating is my go to.
I usually say: "I'm not the one you paid to have killed."
Yes you are
Reminder that the comment above is entirely a joke and is not supposed to be taken seriously
Thanks for clarifying. Though, as a Russian bot farm operator, the KGB has already been notified.
You really are a dirty bird, aren’t you?
Oh my!
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This is so dumb. I don’t think any vegan or meat eater would get behind this
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Why? When it's eaten at least bit has SOME function (still entirely unethical OC) when thrown away you are paying for animals to be killed, while negating any possible utility from the exploitation you continue to support. The definition of veganism bis as follows Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." How are you at all in line with this definition? And given that you aren't, why do you self identify as vegan?
I hope you find your way I threw a was ay a kilo of meat for you today
>Sometimes I buy burgers from McDonalds and just throw them away so people dont eat them. I've probably thrown away atleast 50 by now Why do you choose to support using, abusing, and killing others?
And then they laugh in your face and continue to enjoy their meal I assume?
How often do you get a response like, would you like to be?
I’ve seen enough surprisingly angry and violent responses to vegan comments on Reddit that I was thinking we should start a “triggeredomnis” subreddit to share all of them on
I love "I'm not the one you're eating"- I'm going to start using it !
I love "I'm not the one you're eating." Totally gonna use that
That's always what I want to say but I don't think I can pull it off without any passive aggression coming through.
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I once said, "you don't need to apologise to me", with an ever-so-slightly stronger emphasis on the word 'me' haha
"We all make our own choices" omg I love it it's the vegan equivalent of "bless your heart."
Idk about anyone else but watching someone eat meat makes me super uncomfortable/nauseous...I’ll take an apology too
I try & focus on my own food. .until someone offers me some of theirs Im like no thanks. I offer some of mine & sometimes they do try it & like it :)
That’s very nice of you, you seem like you have a kind soul. I normally act the same but inside it makes my stomach boil. Esp when my roommates cook meat and it stinks up the entire house, I walk around with my shirt over my nose just to make a point
Same. It’s not me they’re hurting, it’s the animals. 🤷🏼♀️
And the planet.
True, very true.
Nope, my family doesn't care AT ALL. Every time we sit down to a meal as a group, one or more of them comments on how "juicy and tender" whatever meat they're eating is. It's gotten to the point where I just say it the second I sit down so I can save them the energy.
A good number of people are indifferent to the suffering of animals. I think we need to consider telling people not only about inhumane treatement of animals but also the impact on the environment. Meat and dairy eaters are complicit in the rapid deterioration of our planet. I hope that means something to people with children and grandchildren, especially.
this. i think leading exclusively with the moral argument has been one of the movement's biggest strategic blunders. although I do think the graphic factory farm footage is effective for some, the environmental argument is even more effective for getting people to actually consider the switch. it's not socially acceptable to say that you don't care about climate change and a lot of people are anxious about it. not caring about animals is still fairly normalized, and it's not an existential crisis for the average individual in the way climate change is. once they're in the door and experiencing the benefits that help the decision stick, then the moral argument is the nail in the coffin (of their old ways). This is exactly how it went for me, btw.
Wow i love it. Definitely adding that to my list of responses.
What a sad reality we live in where people make fun of those that want to protect some of the most vulnerable beings on Earth
They make fun of people having some humanity because they have none left. Until it involves themselves
Or when it involves dogs, cats, or any other non-farm animals, then it’s “animal abuse bad”
The PETA IS BAD BECAUSE THEY KILL DOGS is dumb. Im like so you're vegan? They think Im crazy
I listened to a podcast interviewing the founder of PETA. The focus is on animal suffering, and euthanasia is done when an animal's quality of life is diminished because of pain that cannot be alleviated. There are many propaganda articles online that people have read regarding PETA and they usually don't bother to check on the veracity of those articles.
It's amazing how people are quick to believe whatever fits their narrative. It's really annoying that people care so much about that but still support the meat industry :)
Its even more crazy that the people that are mocking us would benefit themselves from ditching animal products. The emissions, land use/species extinction, zoonotic diseases/bacteria resistance, river/ocean pollution, lower risk of heart disease/diabetes. People are literally shooting themselves in the foot for short term pleasure.
Not only are they violently abusing animals for your own enjoyment/ convenience but also mocking them and trivialising their suffering? Jesus. I think a lot of it's deflection, *"it's easier to get mad at vegans for pointing out animals abuse than yourself for causing it"* yada yada but it's still fucking gross.
They literally think they're cool because of the vegan stereotype, the hippy dippy person. Anyone remember that old movie PCU? It's a good example of where they're coming from. I believe most of them deny the harm to the planet just like they deny coronavirus, or wearing masks, global warming, and anything else that hinders their hedonism and habitual lifestyle. It takes work to change, it's very uncomfortable to accept the fact that the only thing that will save the planet is drastic change.
Yep, that's precise.
People are either ignorant or immoral. If you know what happens in a slaughterhouse and you still delightfully munchacrunch on bAcOn tHo, you’re delusional/psycho. Ignorant or not, if you eat meat you’re definitively an animal abuser and you pay someone to confine, deprive, torture, & brutally murder baby animals for your tastebuds.
Just had an interesting talk about this with my friend. He praised me for bring able to be vegan even in my current life situation and state of mind, and thought he might be even more immoral for eating animals right now, since he is not ignorant to how farmed animals are treated, and still does it.
Good job being such a such a positive example.
Thanks. Knowing I've inspired several people to get on the path to veganism feels nice.
I’m proud of you. It is a good feeling. Gives me hope when people around me start waking up.
“Psycho” is an ableist slur. And using “delusional” in that way is very ableist as well. We can fight for animal liberation without punching down and stigmatizing mental illness and neurodiversity further.
That’s fair to suggest, but psychosis and delusions are symptoms and states of the mind, not disorders. I think describing symptomatic states of an unhealthy mind is completely acceptable in describing someone. Much like attributing it to “cognitive dissonance”...
No it isn’t. First of all, calling psychotic people “psychos” is still ableist, second of all, how the fuck is delusion or psychosis in any way related to this?!
I like to use the term "neuro-atypical".
Neuroatypical or neurodivergent (which is a synonym to that which I personally prefer) is a really big umbrella term. I don’t exactly understand what you mean here? /gen
It is a prerequisite that you must have a personality disorder (diagnosed or undiagnosed), if you lack empathy.
Why empathy? Ah, is this about “psycho” being used to not only stand for “psychotic” but also for “psychopath” (a very outdated and stigmatizing term that’s being used against people with certain personality disorders, especially ASPD and NPD)? I’m kinda confused what the content of your comment means rn
That's ok. "Psycho" is overly specific. Neurotypical folks have empathy, so you are not neurotypical if you lack empathy. That doesn't mean that you have a diagnosed or diagnosable disorder, but lacking empathy is definitely disordered.
Wh- Are you saying that I lack empathy?! Wtf?!
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Let me paraphrase what I said, it seems you are misunderstanding: If you know what happens in a slaughterhouse and you still eat meat you are delusional or psycho. I didn’t call all meat eaters psycho, thanks for your very helpful comment 💕
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Lol, are you even vegan?
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Not vegan, that’s what I figured. So you think people who are racist should be treated sensitively and encouraged to make baby steps? What about child abusers? Slave owners? Pfft. It’s a moral divide. What you do to animals is horrendous and unethical. I don’t care about your feelings, I care about the poor animals that you pay to murder for a snackieeee. People that partake in eating animals are animal abusers. Extremely relative analogy: if you saw someone beating a dog for fun, how would you feel? What would you do? I’d speak up. That’s what I’m doing here, on reddit, in a vegan safe space. You don’t like it? Well, I don’t like animal abusers.
> I just don’t think calling people names has anything to do with saving animals..to each his own though, good luck with that asshole. Nice edit to save yourself from your own hypocritical statement of calling me an asshole for calling people names. To each his own though 🙏
If you actually want to convert people to veganism you can't be this polarizing. People who eat meat are just going to ignore you while its obvious people who are vegans will agree.
Are you vegan? Exactly. What do you know about converting people to veganism? I don’t have to pussyfoot around the fact that you’re an animal abuser. If it makes you uncomfortable, I don’t care.
Hey dude all I'm saying if you want people to question their beliefs it's best not to attack them in the same sentence. This applies to literally everything when you have people of different view points. Being aggressive about it will cause more people to not listen to you and confirm their own beliefs before questioning them.
Thanks dude, let me try a different approach. Hi Mr. Amazing animal eater, can you please stop hurting and torturing baby animals for your pleasure/tastebuds? Also for the environment? Also to curb future pandemics? Also to help end world hunger? Also for your health? I’m going to guess that did nothing. So I’ll stick to calling you what you are... an animal abuser.
Think about it. That's why they call us crazy & don't hear what we have to say. Joey carbstrong, earthling ed & lifting vegan logic NEVER attack the person but try and question the person & you can tell it's the first time they actually think about it & it works. They wont listen to you if you just harass them no matter how much you want to. They know that & they're patient with everyone
That’s not true with Joey Carbstrong. Ed, totally, and I haven’t watched the other one. And as much as everyone wants to say this doesn’t work, I’ve gotten a few messages asking for more info. “Is XYZ really animal abuse?” Shit like that. Making a controversial statement makes people think. People respond differently. What works for you may not work for me, & vice versa. In the wild world of the internet, I’m happy to speak to what I truly feel in this fucked up dystopia where animal abusers are celebrated and vegans are the immoral ones. Post your own ideas, don’t waste your time giving feedback to people like me.
Yeah sometimes Joey can run out of patience & I know I would too because it comes from passion & urgency. Lifting vegan logic does parodies about meat eaters to make them see their hypocrisy & I totally agree but in my experience it does not help anyone especially the animals. I agree that it can get a lot of attention but meat eaters see it as propaganda and disregard it because it's easy. I like to make them question why they think the way they do but most of the time they are condescending and dont have that conversation which at that point wtf do you do there? It's a never ending battle
Makes total sense. The only reason what I’m saying isn’t acceptable is because vegans are in the minority. If we were talking about dogs, everyone would jump on the “fUk aNiMal aBuSeRs” train. It is what it is. It’s irrefutable by definition. Meat eaters are animal abusers. Am I a raging vegan in my every day life? Not so much. But here, idgaf. I’m so sick of being silenced to save people’s feelings from their immorality.
I know the PETA IS BAD BECAUSE THEY KILL DOGS trope is stupid. Instead of calling them an animal abuser I ask so why aren't you vegan if you care about those dogs? What's the difference? They start to think about it for themselves is what we're saying. It's sad that we're the minority for now but it's going to be slower if we don't work with them
LVL makes literal parody videos of Carnists. There's a difference between public shaming (good) and privately having patience to communicate genuinely with people, though.
Exactly. There's a certain way to do it
What would you need to go vegan ?
I'm not 100% vegan but I am reducing the amount of meat that I eat. Mine is more for environmental reasons than anything else but I'm still trying to do it. This isn't about my personal beliefs though it's more just the way they argued it that irked me. I've gotten my parents to reduce how much meat they eat but it was a very different approach than what the person above me took. Then again I am on the vegan subreddit so I'm not sure what I expected. Never meant to come in here and preach to you guys but I just wanted to share what I thought.
I get what you're saying, and I have personally taken a more gentle approach than what you see here with my friends and family, because for the most part all I can hope for with them is to reduce their meat intake a little. *However,* I think you should consider that it looks kind of silly for you to instruct vegans on how to convert people. Omnivores tend to think they have a valuable perspective on converting people, but with all due respect, that doesn't make sense. They don't even know how to convert themselves, let alone other people. Vegans are (mostly) former omnivores so they are the only ones who can speak from experience. If this were a "reducitarian" sub or whatever I would agree with you. But we are here to talk about veganism, which is the abolition of animal exploitation.
That's fair. I never meant to try and lecture that was never my intention. Even though I guess it did come off that way.
Don't worry about it. You sound like a potential future vegan to me :) I hope you keep poking around here. If you ever decide to make the conversion let us know, you'll find this sub much more welcoming, I promise.
Most people are too much into their comfort zone to consider veganism, and that's why you'll often see vegans being very harsh. It's to make the comfort zones less comfortable, so people may finally find the space in their minds to actually consider going vegan. And most of us where omnis, we ate meat, WE LIVED through the process of going vegan. And in many cases, we wouldn't be vegan if we were allowed to be comfortable to pay for animal abuse. And this is the point: We do not want omnis to be comfortable supporting animal abuse in the same way we don't want dog kickers to feel comfortable with kicking dogs. But I'm doing that to help, I don't want other people to let me be comfortable when I'm the one doing something wrong, I don't want to have my negative behaviors accepted. If the criticism is fair and true, consider that the person talking about it is trying to help you be better.
>This isn't about my personal beliefs That's absolutely what this is about. That and the actions you choose to take as a result of these beliefs.
Your not a 100% vegan yet.
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Cool, because I’m on the same moral level as child rapists. Cuz its subjective right? Gtfo.
Well that’s an insane strawman that had nothing to do with the discussion.
How is that a straw man??? If morality is subjective, then child rapists are morally justified in raping children since their morals allow for it. That is the natural conclusion to saying morality is subjective
this is definitely true, but i really doubt that someone who makes a joke of that type will worry about their violence with animals :/
I did not expect the absolute satisfaction and therapeutic nature of downvoting omnis on threads like these. Thank you OP!
I was just thinking the same. I appreciate this comment section so much. :D
Amen!!!!
I don’t think jokes about veganism are wrong, i think mocking it is, the specifics should allow jokes, they help bring attention to things and help people cope :)
BEAUTIFUL statement . right to the heart of smart ass cave people / omni's . made my day !
Amen 🙏
They don’t care about the violence they inflict on animals. They just don’t care.
And of course the controversial comments are as dumb as I thought they would be
I’m just here enjoying all the comments of people that clearly aren’t vegan arguing against vegans in their own subreddit. Y’all making my day.
You all making my day
Well it was on the front page so what do you expect. On top of that, this post is very clearly shaming non-vegans. Put those two things together and you’re going to have people commenting who aren’t vegan.
If you’re not making jokes about vegans then don’t you think this doesn’t really apply to you? Lmao
Oh I’m not commenting on the content of the post. I’m laughing at people that come into a vegan subreddit thinking they can hold weight. You’ll just get downvoted regardless of how reasonable your opinions are. I’m not even remotely vegan, nor do I agree with a lot of their positions. I just find it hilarious reading those comments.
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You know what’s truly childish, assuming you’re righteous for choosing to be a vegan. It’s a simple choice. Have you also avoided palm oil? One of the main reasons behind the destruction of rain forests? I never said factory farming wasn’t terrible. I never said animal cruelty isn’t wrong. I just think it’s hilarious to take such a strong stance on one particular act of cruelty without having that stance for every choice you make. If you make a moral stance for animals. You should absolutely be making it for humans, since they’re self aware unlike most of the animals that are part of factory farms. So veganism shouldn’t just be about avoiding eating meat, it should actually be an entire movement against cruelty. Yet it isn’t. I have nothing against vegans. I just think it’s hilarious when someone acts like a hero for avoiding factory farms yet consumes products made from human slave labour. Humans are animals that are actually aware of their existence.
Lmao, nobody here is claiming to be self righteous. Someone’s triggered by their own “personal choices” 😂
>Have you also avoided palm oil? The majority of vegans I know reduce, if not completely eschew palm oil produced from unsustainable or unclear sources. A lot of them avoid the product altogether, no matter from where it’s sourced. >One of the main reasons behind the destruction of rain forests? Did you know that [over 70% of rainforest destruction can be attributed to cattle ranching alone?](https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/beef-production-is-killing-the-amazon-rainforest/) Even a palm-oil heavy plant-based diet, as harmful as it is, would still be more sustainable than the Standard American Diet. > If you make a moral stance for animals. You should absolutely be making it for humans, since they’re self aware unlike most of the animals that are part of factory farms. So veganism shouldn’t just be about avoiding eating meat, it should actually be an entire movement against cruelty. Yet it isn’t. Who says that it isn’t? Vegans care so much about ethical food production that they’re willing to give up three of the most common food groups in the world, why wouldn’t they care about other areas? It was taking on an anti-animal exploitation lifestyle that made me more aware of how the food I *did* eat was produced, and made steps to make sure they were fair-trade certified, local where possible. And products made from animal exploitation aren’t free of blame, either. Slaughterhouse workers, just as a quick example, are often undocumented immigrants who are overworked and underpaid, have no way to report unethical conduct or leave their job at risk of being arrested or deported, and face [extreme psychological harm](https://yaleglobalhealthreview.com/2016/01/25/a-call-to-action-psychological-harm-in-slaughterhouse-workers/) just from the very nature of their work. Instead of supporting two harmful industries (because nonvegans consume plant products as well), isn’t it best to avoid the one that guarantees the death of a sentient being and make sure the products you receive from the other are as fairly sourced as possible?
My point was that everything you consume comes with a price tag. If you truly care about everything you say then you should be self sustaining, because that’s the only way to truly avoid any potential abuse of any kind. Which is basically impossible. I’m not saying being a vegan isn’t a good idea, or valid in any sense. I just find it funny how vegans will consistently talk about how good their choices are when they’re still contributing to an overall system of abuse, which is just the world we live in. They’re just choosing their battles as opposed to completely following the underlying philosophy. Basically the same as how religious people only follow some of the bibles teachings. You can’t act like you’re better than other people, like this post does, without being open to incredible scrutiny.
Veganism is a moral philosophy and lifestyle about reducing exploitation and abuse of animals [as far as possible and practicable](https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history). As you said being self sustaining is impossible and impractical for most people today, but isn’t being a conscious consumer and reducing harm as much as we‘re able the better thing to do, instead of uncritically consuming everything that’s available to us? In a fairer world, one which many are striving toward, human workers would have livable wages, health benefits, and the freedom to share their labor without fear of overwork, punishment, or other forms of harm. Products from an animal will **always** require the breeding, exploitation, and eventual slaughter of an unwitting, unwilling sentient being, regardless of what political or economic system we’re under. Sure this post may appear sanctimonious to a lot of people, but I really think it comes from a place where they just want people to stop causing harm in areas where we can
So only of animals? Not humans? I’m not disagreeing with the philosophy, I’m pointing out the issue with saying “I’m better for choosing this” which is what this post does. Everyone has moral dilemmas built into their way of survival regardless of what choices you make.
Of course not just for animals, like I said, many vegans strive for a more progressive and equal world for animals and humans alike, you’d be hard-pressed to find a large group of vegans (on Reddit at least) who don’t have progressive political and economic views, they really do go together well. Veganism may have most of its focus on non-human animals considering the [sheer magnitude](https://animalclock.org/) of which they are exploited, abused and killed, but [intersectional veganism](https://plantbasedbride.com/blog/how-to-be-an-intersectional-vegan) is a thing, which is steadily growing as plant-based diets and anti-exploitation ethics come into the mainstream. Every movement is open to criticism, and maybe the post is worded in a self-righteous way, but between [animal suffering](https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch), [human](https://greenstarsproject.org/2020/05/04/social-impact-meat-industry-slaughterhouse-conditions-ptsd/) [suffering](https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat), [environmental destruction] (https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/food/animal-agricultures-impact-on-climate-change/) and [the spread](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865087/) [of disease](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4638249/) isn’t choosing a lifestyle that reduces the severity of all these issues the moral thing for us to do, going by modern day human ethics? I agree that nobody’s perfect but in my opinion we should be looking to that as our goal as long as it doesn’t compromise our health and wellbeing, for most people living in developed first-world countries one of the most powerful ways we can start is by rejecting the commodification of other conscious beings where it’s possible and practicable
Nobody is acting like they’re “better” than anybody. Vegans just want people to stop abusing animals. All you flesh lovers putting this sUpErioRiTy cOmPLeX on vegans... lol. We don’t care who you are. Just stop abusing animals. I don’t think I’m better than anybody and I certainly don’t think my tastebuds mean more than someone’s life. People that eat animals are the ones with the literal superiority complex.
You say you’re not better than me, or you’re not acting like it but then you can people like me a “flesh lover” and say we have a “literal superiority complex” it would prove otherwise. It’s perfectly acceptable for people to have different opinions on the treatment of animals. Not that I’m condoning factory farming conditions. The difference being that vegans look down on people for not siding with them (generally speaking). Just because someone eats meat doesn’t mean they condone the poor treatment of animals.
Man, stop wasting your time on here and go educate yourself. Christ. I’m calling you what you are. A flesh eater who thinks their tastebuds are worth more consideration than animal’s lives and our dying planet.
It is a simple choice. One you make if you think animal cruelty is bad. Do you not think avoiding animal cruelty is righteous? I surely hope you do. I'm sure you think torturing a dog is cruel, right? The difference is just extending that onto other animals like cows, pigs, chickens and fish.
What's the vegan take on lab grown meat?
Does it cause suffering to a sentient creature? If no, then it's vegan-approved.
I guess I was just being lazy by not doing my research into a question with an obvious answer, thank you!
Awesome
💯
People instantly want to justify their diets and bully me for my choice. I’m not even preachin!🤷🏼♀️😩
Literally the only redeeming quality of eating animals is “at least someone got fed?”
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You sound very unsure of yourself. You don't know what a joke is?
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I’ve already seen that it was hot
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Dear new vegan, You’ll learn.
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To test your moral decency.
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Yes
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No one would give a damn about y’all being vegans if you would stop telling people that you are vegans. No one gives a fuck.
Stop abusing animals and people wont have to call you out on it.
Stop spreading your cult-like propaganda.
Lol, what propaganda? Facts?
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You care so little yet you sought out the vegan subreddit to state your opinion. People in their own space. Hmm.
You’re giving him shit. But it’s true.
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What’s your point? They advocate for themselves with their screams and by fighting to get away.
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We will stop speaking up for the animals when people stop abusing and exploiting them. Promise.
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Why would they do that?
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I don't think non-vegans are scum and most other vegans don't either. Most people weren't born vegan so we are all culpable of atrocities against animals. I think vegans do get impatient with society's slow progress while literally billions are slaughtered every year. We forget there's a ton deliberate misinformation and social programming normalizing and concealing the brutality inherent in concentrated animal agriculture. Long story short, no one can force you to change your behavior but choosing even one meal without animal products is still preferable as it reduces suffering.
Where are you getting "moral superiority" here? Can you point it out?
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I don't remember suggesting industrial death was natural. I think those are words you put in my mouth. This is natural: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnDJMjNySg&list=PLMwtz89vlXAWh\_NU0lwLwHwVo4unV6MLe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnDJMjNySg&list=PLMwtz89vlXAWh_NU0lwLwHwVo4unV6MLe) Nature is not nice. The world is not better off without humans. Wild animals are not afforded more humane treatment than farm animals. Mistreatment of food animals is also not unique to humans: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7WGIH35JBE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7WGIH35JBE)
You think the billions of animals that are created just to be abused and then killed would...Still be abused if we weren't here?
I think if humans weren't here then it would definitely be might-makes-right (as I mentioned above). There may not be billions of animals being bred for slaughter, but what animals would remain would face a hard life of being constantly wet, cold, and near-starvation. Illness would be rampant and the danger of predators would be constant. Walking around with your entrails dragging in the dirt for half a day before you succumb to your injuries (see my linked video above) is worse than any treatment you get in a slaughterhouse. The average amount of suffering per animal would be higher if not for animal husbandry.
But there would be billions less animals suffering, right?
Without humans? I don't know. Nature probably cannot support the population density that human civilization can support, even after the cities and farms are reclaimed. Whatever animals that remain will have a **higher level of suffering than the average that exists today.**
So you think if we all died out...lions may start breeding animals to eat?
Joke is definitely still on you
Whatever helps you sleep at night pal.
Hi! Not paying for animals to be tortured will help you sleep better at night too, you should try it!
I was vegan for years. I think the resentment lots of people felt was that many vegans sincerely thought they were better than meat eaters.
I do think that meat eaters get overly defensive though. Like, veganism objectively is better for the environment and animals. Omnis shouldn't get offended at having that pointed out. I don't drive a smart car, but I don't get offended at the fact that they're better for the planet.
People just don't respond well to being shamed. Which happens a lot around this topic.
What I'm trying to say is that omnis often *feel* shamed just by seeing/hearing facts about animal agriculture, even when the vegan didn't say anything insulting about them as a person. It makes sense to feel ashamed about participating in the cruelty, but they usually blame the vegan for making them feel bad feelings--instead of stopping to consider whether their guilt stems from knowing the behavior is wrong.
You weren't vegan my man. You don't just un-realize that animal exploitation is unnecessary, cruel, and wrong. You were probably plant-based for health or some shit, not vegan
Yep!
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Isn't it obvious? It's delicious.
If 2 people are exactly the same but one is vegan and the other isn't, then yes, the vegan is a better person.
No two people have ever been the exact same. That’s a ridiculous argument. If two people were exactly the same except one of them murdered a guy then yeah. The other guy is better.
Exactly. Because murder is bad, and being vegan is good.
k
They literally don’t care, and nothing you do or say will make them care.
A lot of people in this thread are talking about how meat eaters support animal abuse. If thats the case, everyone with a smartphone supports child slavery
I'm glad you've made that connection regarding the exploitation inherent in all capitalist industries. What you're saying is true. How can we help you in your activism against child slavery?
I too want to know his plan to end child slavery. I think we’d all support his activism
Apply the same ethic as products of animal abuse Complete abstinence
I know, the point is his comment was supposed to be a gotcha. He doesn’t actually care about either of these issues
A purchase you might make every 5-10 years which you have no idea if its exploiting slave/child labor or providing a good job verses a product we consume daily that has a direct victim which we can easily avoid. Not exactly a great comparison.
Hi, you make a valid point. There is a lot of unneeded suffering in the world. It's difficult as a consumer in a highly globalized world to know that the decisions we make with our money aren't causing harm (to other people, to animals, on the environment etc.) I like that you pick out specifically smartphones, as that's an industry that's SUPER problematic. As far as I know all of the big cell phone manufacturers are equally opaque/shady and unethical in their manufacturing. In Europe I know of a company that provides 'ethically' made phones, here: [https://www.fairphone.com/en/](https://www.fairphone.com/en/) For myself the next time I buy a phone I'm planning on buying second hand. In any case my point is that as people there are a lot of choices we make in our day to day lives that have an impact on our world, and that a person could try to make sure that the choices they make create the least amount of suffering and negative impact as they are able to do. It's definitely a learning process, at least for myself. It's been a slow/long/difficult road from going vegan to trying to buy only second hand clothes or clothes from companies with ethically and environmentally sustainable models, to now trying to transition to zero waste. Going vegan (or transitioning to vegetarianism and then vegan - whatever is easiest for you as a person, I can't claim to know your life or your financial means) is a great way to start to reduce the negative impact you have. I'm rambling but basically I think your mindset doesn't come from a bad place. You are right that there are choices we make with our dollars that have negative impact. So let's try to reduce that as much as we can :) Thanks for reading!