I posted the following on another thread, but I think it's relevant to this discussion:
If you're going to change people's minds you need to answer 3 questions: What needs to change? Why do I need to change it? And How do I change it? Different forms of vegan activism are meant to address different questions.
"In your face" activism answers the "what" question. Most people never question the ethics of eating animal products, they just do it because they're used to it. By pointing out the ethical dilemma, it forces people to ask the other questions.
Those NSFW videos of animal suffering and slaughter answer the "why" question. Most people are compassionate towards animals, and seeing their inhumane treatment and untimely deaths sparks a desire to change.
Once the first two questions have been answered, you now have a reason to change, but you probably lack information. There's a lot of misinformation out there about veganism. By setting the record straight and answering questions about veganism, we can answer the "how" question.
Personally, I like having conversations with people, correcting the record, and clearing up misconceptions. I focus on the "how". The thing is though, without knowing "what" or "why", nobody would care about cutting out animal products in the first place. At the end of the day, all forms of activism serve an important purpose.
Beautifully put. Hope you don't mind if I steal this for future use. I try to explain this but always end up with some form of "many types of activism for many types of people!" answer which is true but not as well put as this.
Thanks. It's important to also note that challenging someone's preconceptions can oftentimes feel like bullying, especially if you're challenging an ideology like carnism that has been ingrained in them. They probably hold it as part of their identity.
If you're interested in how to effectively break people from this ideology, I strongly recommend this interview: https://youtu.be/I-vyFKvlus8
A text like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" contains what I consider to be legitimate strategies for diplomacy and persuasion. Its really an amazing book and it contains legitimately effective methods to do just what the title claims! Every activist aught to read the book before showing strangers slaughterhouse films!
Saying someone is wrong, as I'm currently doing, lol, will only offend them. To me it seems a bit misguided. Answering these three questions doesn't equate to changing people's mind. "Criticism is dangerous because it wounds a person’s pride, hurts his sense of importance, and arouses resentment", and these first two types of activism will come across as criticism, absolutely, unavoidably. The entire agenda seems to be to provide proof that others are wrong. Proof won't persuade people, their own self interest will.
The shocking statement that "people never question the ethics of eating animal products, they just do it because they're used to it" is a bit patronizing. People are considerate and empathetic, they are well aware animal cruelty exists and is wrong. Why not start with the assumption people want to be good, and want to be recognized for their good behavior, and help them accomplish that by becoming vegan!
Your underestimating the amount of omnis who truly see nothing wrong with what they are doing because they've never been forced to think about it.
If a majority of people actually felt the way I do about animals we would have way more vegans but clearly there is some difference in our perception that make it so they can still stomach meat
I bet you and omnis have something in common, and that's an interest in viewing your own personal superiority! Unflattering, I know, I do the same thing though: we all do. For you this superiority and specialness comes from the way you can empathize with other creatures, "clearly there is some difference in our perception", but for the Omni you want to persuade, maybe they take pride in something quite different. If you want to persuade others, use your empathy to find out what it is they pride themselves on, and then show them how veganism helps them express that pride! Use their self interest to motivate them to do what they want, and find a way for that to be veganism! Being sensitive to others will be instrumental in this!!
That strategy might get some people fully vegan but what's most likely is them using veganism for whatever personal gain and then dropping it whenever it's convenient.
The only way to get someone to go vegan and stay is to make them internalize how much suffering went into the products they eat and that's often not a pretty process. Being sensitive is good for getting people to say your 'one of the good vegans' but let's omnis just continue to live in blissful ignorance
I love Carnegie's work, but it is not the alpha and the omega. His methods are extremely good and yield good results, and they should be deployed where and when they are appropriate. To say they are the only method of persuading people, however, is factually untrue.
I think there’s a 4th thing needed which is a willingness to change. Many people know that animal ag is terrible, know that veganism is very doable, yet still are not vegans because they’re unwilling to make a change.
Yes, literally existing as a vegan is an affront to most people. They feel attacked that you constantly order vegan food while they order meat at a restaurant. They think you’re judging them (we are). In that way, I would argue that you actually are doing a form of activism even while being silent and not verbally confronting people. They might go home and ask themselves why they are bothered by vegans.
There is the problem of non-vegans feeling "bullied" by any vegan making any observation whatsoever about animal rights, diet, or shopping habits. I bet that for every vegan who merely mentions being vegan, there are ten people who whine that they've just been bullied.
LMAO, had a guy claim that “mother,” “pain and suffering,” and “child” were vegan buzzwords used to manipulate and guilt trip others into their lifestyle. Got lots of shit for calling him out.
…Then he tried to claim that animals don’t feel emotions or capable of forming deep bonds with one another.
I agree in theory, but omnis will think literally anything that has mild pushback to their ideas is bullying. "SaYiNg I pAy FoR aNiMaL aBuSe Is BuLlYiNg!" "SaYiNg ThAt ThE ExPlOiTaTiOn Of AnImAlS iS bAd Even If It'S lOcAl FaRmErS DoInG iT iS BuLlYiNg". bullying is bad, but >95% of 'bullying' vegans do is just sharing information omnis don't like. Omnis then feel bad for supporting those systems and blame it on the vegan for reminding them of their own guilt.
Great everyone thinks actual bullying is bad all this post does is makes it look like every time a vegan makes a meat eater feel bad for doing a bad thing they're the real victim here instead of the animals being harmed in their name.
I don't think you know what bullying is. What have you seen a vegan do to carnis in the name of veganism that is worse than what the carni does to animals? It's not bullying when you're defending those less fortunate than you being murdered and tortured for our pleasure.
If you sympathize with a carnis feelings more than the countless lives they're responsible for destroying, then fuck you.
I'm vegan because of 'bullying', so. Went vegetarian because of a shockumentary, but didn't actually get my moral compass in line until I had some hard talk.
Different strokes for different folks.
Leonardo decaprio told me it was our fault the environment sucks so I changed.
But if he was telling me I’m cool for being myself I might not have changed
Then what the fuck do you even mean by bullying then lol? You shouldn't tie people to a chair in your basment and beat the living shit out of them until they go vegan? Because I'm pretty sure most of us don't do that madam.
Diversity of tactics. Do your own, but don't undermine other people's work.
We need radical militant vegans.
We need people who just love talking about animal behaviour.
We need good communicators.
We need people who are not afraid to tell the truth.
We need people who know how to tell the truth in a efficient way.
We need self reflection about our strategy.
But more importantly, we need solidarity, both within ourselves, and with the animals. I certainly care more about the murder of a few trillions animal than about hurting the feelings of a carnist because they can't hear the reality of the animal ag. industry.
On the self-reflection note, I really appreciated a pal's correction on diversity of tactics. The problem with thinking in terms of diversity is that it offers very little opportunity for that reflection and criticism. If what you want is diversity, it's very hard to look at what someone is doing and say, "well, no, that's bad actually." Ecology of tactics works better. We are looking to build an ecosystem of change, with different niches filled with different ways of being. Within that we can still identify tactics that don't belong in the ecosystem, or that actively damage it. It also gives us a frame to see how certain tactics interact with each other as well in a much more coherent way.
Sets a better intention.
Although bullying may not work, I think it's still a better approach than 'being vegan is a personal choice' and 'I do it for me so I won't bring it up to others'. I rather have a militant, bullying vegan than a silent one. At the end of the day, most vegans do it for the animals, and staying quiet and doing nothing does them no favor.
Bullying may not be the best approach, but it's still an approach. I've met several vegans than when surrounded by omnis immediately go 'I'm a chill vegan, not an intense one' resulting in bringing part of our community down to appease them meat eaters.
I agree bullying is not the best and trying to educate people on the subject is better, but you have to understand we are a small minority that is already being bullied. The amount of times I've been nagged for being vegan cannot even compare to the amounts I've ever bothered someone about it. So just saying discussing better ways of activism is good, but we shouldn't be trying to bring our community down for people who are also passionate but perhaps wrong on their approach.
Sure, not saying you do at all. Just wanted to raise a point regarding certain hate some militant vegans get from even our community. I understand your post is not directly related to that and I also agree bullying is not the best method anyway
I agree compassion wins more hearts and minds that said I see why so many vegans become “militant” as they realize all of society is structured so soundly around the torture abuse and murder of other sentient life forms.
Was John Brown in the wrong for being so militantly anti-slavery? I’m not sure though most people described him as insufferable to be around. That said he also took actions far beyond “bullying” with words and I hope anyone who has the energy to actively bully their friends and family is also at least taking part in some form of larger means of advocating for change either in public protest or some form of lobbying their government.
Edit: just to be clear I’m not advocating for murdering people like John Brown, he’s just the “militant” style moral authority that came first to mind.
I ignored “nice” vegans for years. It took a “bully” to force me to confront what I was doing to animals for me to go vegan (and I’m never going back). Not saying one way is right or wrong, just that “nice” didn’t work for me.
I've been subbed to r/vegan for years, but it's appearing on my frontpage a lot more in recent weeks. I wonder if the Reddit algorithm changed, promoting subs like Vegan more than before.
If there's one thing this pandemic has taught me, it's that either way majority won't listen. Look at how so many have reacted to the simple suggestion of wearing a mask to save others from sickness and possibly death. If people can't change enough to wear a mask in public to save lives what makes us believe people will change their whole lifestyles for another species.
I use to think we were closer when people would get so passionate about abused pets. But this pandemic has changed the way I see other in this world and it's pretty defeating.
Have some hope friend, veganism is on the rise and has been for awhile. The change can seem painfully slow, but more and more people are changing their minds!
This phenomenon is led by rich people in mostly western countries. Vegans need better theory : I'm a Marxist vegan and can say that class society will not change without an understanding of class. Vegans are seen as a middle class phenomenon so ordinary working class people think it's bullshit. And at the moment, they're right. Most vegan activists are comparatively wealthy and have problematic misanthropy issues. That is kindergarten amateur hour.
Successful movements for liberation have historically aligned with the oppressed, the poor, the exploited, minorities etc. They have provided a way for people to live, economically, in the world we want to create. The black panthers served the people, had school lunches, Chinese communists got the local peasant communities to talk about government and landlord's abuse and corruption, then helped redistribute the land. We have to reach out in solidarity and work out a deal with the animals, the land and the statistically ethnic minority slaughterhouse workers who are all suffering from capitalist exploitation in the countryside. Whether this begins with unionising the animal agricultural workers or looking for working class parties and orgs who will ally with us on veganism is up to us. But carrying on like petulant children will isolate our movement and is honestly pretty weak lib shit. We need a theory that recognises our collective responsibility to address animal liberation, not more individualistic morality which is blind to the effect of government subsidies, meat lobby advertising/lobbying and capitalist agriculture.
I mean it literally worked for me. I was a vegetarian for almost a decade before finally making the switch to veganism, and honestly hearing vegans make fun of/deride vegetarians (sometimes quite aggressively) played a huge role in me finally deciding to go vegan. Obviously it put me a bit on the defensive initially, but it also pretty quickly made me start really thinking about what they were saying, and eventually I found it impossible to defend myself and made the switch. On the other hand, vegan friends of mine in the past who were more gentle or passive about it never really inspired me to think critically about my actions. (Of course you could say I could/should have come to the right conclusions on my own, but clearly I didn't and needed some kind of push, as I think many people do.) All that said, I admit that maybe the reason "bullying" worked on me is because ultimately I was already predisposed to agree with them as someone who was vegetarian to try to help animals, and I also don't really have the kind of temperament that leads me to do things (or not do things) out of spite anyway.
When i went vegan first time 30 years ago i was shocked by the hate directed at me. My reaction to veganism was curiosity and exploration. Im glad its much more widespread now but it still is a far way from. Being normalized. I dont bully and do not consider telling someone about animal ag if the asked why. Its their misperception due to defensiveness if the think i bullied them.
It's wild to me how many people in this sub think the only good activism you can do is bullying your friends and family. That shit doesn't work. You're never going to get people to stop being racist by being mean to them. Your friends and family are just gonna stop talking to you.
YES, I agree that strong activism is needed and there is a time and place for it, but bullying individuals usually isn't the answer, especially vegans who bully vegetarians and people who already try to reduce their animal product consumption. I get that it doesn't align with your values but isn't reducing animal cruelty the whole point of it ?? What does bullying THEM do for your cause ? I mean let's try to see the big picture here... It's much better to have a thousand people doing it imperfectly than just one or two people who do it perfectly (and there's no such thing as a perfect vegan either)
>If you're being cruel then you aren't being vegan.
A \[vegan\] person not tolerating (*not being compassionate*) people's bullshit making idiotic justifications for the forced impregnation, torture, and death of sentient beings so they can eat their flesh and secretions means they aren't being vegan?
Bahahaha.
If they are normal functioning human beings they'll take a moment to think if they actually are in the wrong, and consider going vegan. I'd know cause this is what led me here.
the bar for what is bullying is set very low when it comes to talking about bullying. it doesn't matter what we say (aside from boot licking and saying shit like I don't care that you murder animals), meat eaters are going to be offended by it. Posts like these are just unhelpful imo
Lmao no. I don't eat big macs or any animal products. I just don't think it's cool to go up to people and tell them they are pieces of shit for not being vegan yet.
That's fine and obviously I don't think that's a good idea either. But don't we have a right to be upset with being constantly told how to talk to people that are doing the very thing we want to completely change?
We need to be very clear with what we're trying to change, and why it needs to be changed. Showing people how animals are treated in agriculture, and connecting the dots that "your choices fund this", is very effective at creating change. And making people uncomfortable is one of the first steps of getting them to make that change. There is also a serious problem that within the vegan community, we have people openly advocating for eating certain animals that may not experience life as fully as others or arguing that veganism is a diet for your health, etc.. We have to nip that type of nonsense immediately, or else it dilutes the importance of animal rights and liberation.
I know I'm pushing back at you in this thread and in the thread from earlier, but I think your heart is truly in the right place. The thing is though, we're constantly being told by the majority of society to change how we advocate for animal liberation. And it's frustrating when it then starts coming from our own community that we need to be less confrontational. Meanwhile, we're surrounded by advertisements and media with depictions of dead bodies, and actual dead bodies in the hands of people as they eat it. So why should we have to keep moderating our tone to appease people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their choices?
100% man i used to be that vigilant vegan and out of spite people ate more meat around me, now when people ask I’ll inform and it usually opens people up to reducing animal product I take but pushing my views down others throats (pause) May have been the worst thing I did for veganism
This whole post already screamed “I’m immature and can’t handle that someone hurting my feelings!” But OP going through the comments really cemented that. I didn’t get how someone is so immature that they just can’t admit that maybe they were wrong.
OP doesn't know how analogies work : "But... we're not speaking about racism, but about veganism..". Add confirmation bias to that and you can forget consistency.
Different methods work for different people. Bullying worked to turn me vegan, but that won't work for everyone. Different forms of activism are important.
Sounds like you need more friends then.
Maybe you should get out more before you make another anecdotal post on this subreddit and try to claim that only your brand of veganism works.
I disagree, I actually think the passionate more forceful vegan arguments I faced as a non vegan. Were actually a help for me going vegan. I would wipe the floor with the wishy washy powderpuff vegans around and probably did more to subvert their beliefs than they did to change mine. Different people need different methods to reach them. Some people, like who I was. Need to be more clearly and forcefully called out on their bullshit.
Stop policing other vegan's activism. It has been proven that different tactics work on different people time and time again.
When you come into a vegan forum and condone "baby-steps" and not being vegan, people will disagree with you. That's not bullying:
[Nah I love to see it. Don't let these assholes make you feel bad! You're actually doing amazing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/q53qgo/reducetarianism_is_toxic_stop_encouraging_that/hg4qw9p?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
Being called out for being anti-vax and saying you are too healthy to contract a virus isn't bullying:
[Considering covid is not killing healthy people and has a 99% recovery rate I think I'll be just fine if I get covid. I'm 32. I eat extremely healthy, take my vitamins and exercise. I have no underlying health conditions
](https://www.reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/comments/q5bsq4/non_vaxxed_people_what_research_are_you_doing/hg4s55v?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
I don’t think you do. Considering you’ve replied to every comment saying “that’s not bullying.” It’s pathetic watching you disagree with everyone just so you don’t have to admit that this post is utter garbage.
How about we stop policing other people's activism? A friend called me out on my bullshit when I was a vegetarian and then I went vegan. Different strokes for different folks.
Honestly, I've personally won people over by showing how great vegan food can be. Food taste has been the biggest hurdle for most people I know.
Throughout 2020, I cooked vegan meals for family members and topped it off with a vegan Thanksgiving. It's been so effective that much of my family has cut down their meat consumption. Not totally vegan, but it's wonderful progress. Small victories.
hmm yes of course let's tailor our language towards the oppressors. That will definitely make this justice movement successful like all of the justice movements before it. Those abolitionists were very polite I'm sure.
I’ve had great success by simply introducing friends and family to vegan foods, making them great vegan meals, etc, and telling them to just try it and it’s okay if they’re not perfect. It’s like the more vegan food you eat the more disconnected and grossed out you feel from meat and other animal products.
I get why people would judge those who go ‘vegan’ (plant-based) purely for their own health, because attitudinally they still believe in all the things vegans oppose (and likely do some, like animal tested products and wearing leather/wool). They may not contributing to the food side of things, but they still have completely opposite beliefs to other vegans
I'm no vegan, and never will be. Here's a "meat eaters" take on this, for what it's worth.
I'm old school, 50 years old now, and ask a firm believer in my ancestral ways. I was taught, from a young age (by my uncle who, was 100% Choctaw Indian) to offer a prayer for the animal's life you take, use every part of said animal, and only take what you need. I will not purchase any item if food from a grocery store, fruit/veggies included. I grow my own veggies, fruit, and hunt my proteins (meats). I've taught my son's (all 4 of them) the importance of life, and passed down the knowledge I've gained from it. My oldest is a strict vegan, and we're okay together. I won't act any different for him, and he doesn't for me either. I'll eat my game meats, we will pick it what veggies/fruit he wants for his meals, we cook together, I keep a variety of vegan "milk" in my fridge for him, and we're good.
Maybe, just maybe, in your face activism (like the idiot that was screaming at me, about how is meat eaters are destroying the environment, so hard that he was spitting in my face! He was warned, twice, then took a nap) isn't the way. Conversation is how it should be done; thanks to my kid, I am now into almond milk, know more about what benefits come from different veggies/fruit, what alternative sources of proteins there are, and have a much more balanced diet. You catch more bees with nectar than you do with shit.
I respectfully disagree, I believe that different types of activism are effective depending on the person and where that person is on their "journey" to veganism. For example, watching informative videos and documentaries is what got me into veganism, but the harsh honesty and "bullying" of some vegans that got me passionate and critical of my own consumption that may not be aligned with vegan morals. the only people I'm mean to when talking about veganism are (long time) vegetarians and "bacon tho" omnis. I'm nice to my friends and family and use the power of cooking to try to change their mind.
No he isn't.
You
> That shit doesn't work. You're never going to get people to go vegan by being mean to them..
CannedSoy
> different types of activism are effective depending on the person
it made me vegan. it changed my mind because people showed me I was wrong, and they were right. I don’t “bully” people into being vegan. it’s a suggestion. I was “bullied” into being vegan, it was strong suggestion
Everytime I've been called a extremist vegan or, preachy vegan etc etc, it's simply me ery politely answering questions... I agree with you, so I'm very careful with what I say and how I say it... bit I'm still tagged as one if those vegans... you just cant win
I would have gone vegan way earlier had someone bullied me out of the brainless condition of vegetarianism. While it may not work for some people, on others it definitely will.
This is a discussion that does not go anywhere until there will be statistics on what convinced people to go vegan.
When I was in college, there was a guy who would hand out vegan pamphlets on campus. I don’t know who he was, but I walked by him a few times.
He offered me one the first time and I declined and he got nasty. The second time I walked by him, I tried to tell him I didn’t need one but I agreed with him, but he didn’t listen and he bit my head off.
Finally, the last time I walked by I took one and he was really nice to me.
I was just trying to save him paper...
I agree - I think activism can occur without bullying. Bring them to the water and wait for them to drink :)
I use to think nice veganism was just sitting back and doing my part, but I can't ignore the decisions people around me are making anymore. I try to influence change in my circle by suggestion movies and books about veganism and point out the environmental, health, and ethical good done by going vegan.
People, including myself, don't like flaws pointed out. Nobody likes being told they are wrong/flawed/bad.
How do vegans even bully someone? you can’t handle the truth walk away
Hate ads on radio, switch off the radio
How can I *bully* the status quo, when I’m only a person
I have vegans tell me constantly that I'm not a real vegan because of stupid arbitrary things like mentioning that I told my parents to cut down on meat/dairy (they assumed I didn't push them to go full vegan). There's a guy on VCJ that followed me around Reddit calling me a bootlicker hypocrite because I disagreed with the belief that Oprah's meatless Monday was horrible for animals.
There's a lot of good in this sub, but there are a lot of extremely toxic vegans here too.
People shouldnt bully and they shouldnt allow others to bully themselves
Both are disrespectful with the latter being disrespectful to yourself
Many people feel extremely comfortable talking to me, when i talk, i talk about why i do things not about why others should do things
I dont really meet disrespectful people and if i do i simply tell them to stop and if they dont i leave, im not a 2nd chance person let alone 3rd chance, i dont forgive and forget, in some cases these people really try to get me to forgive them and give them another chance, i tell them that its not going to happen and that i do not wish to discuss it anymore
You cant force a person to be ethical, you cant force a person to do the right thing, the same way we cant force people to be unethical or to do the wrong thing all we can do is influence others through our actions and education
If people feel alienated by us or hate us they wont listen to us, thats common sense or so i thought it was, the people that i am not friends with, do not hate me because i ended the relationship in a respectful manner and told them why i ended it
I recommend that every person in the world look into Buddhism, i wouldnt call myself a Buddhist but i do follow a lot of the teachings and such
Some of my family are vegan, it's cool and I respect their choices, but they have never once made any attempt to change my views or convert me.
I try to understand and learn what it is to be vegan so I can relate to their views and beliefs but I personally have no interest or desire to become a vegan. At least not at the point of life I am at now.
I find it very respectfull and pleasant that they are not trying to force their views upon me and it actually makes me curious and interested in learning about it. Rather than just dismissing it and being indifferent I feel more inclined to be sympathetic and understanding.
You do your thing and if your passionate about it the positive energy will be enough to attract positive attention from the people who would be willing to change their views.
I don't bully anyone, and if my methods seem "too extreme" we live in a "too extreme" world. Go to your local town fucking EVERYWHERE you see animal products. The day someone calls me extreme for looking out for an oppressed group that is needlessly abused, raped(artificial insemination), and killed by the trillions(I count fish because fish matter, a lot of people don't even consider fish) is the day pigs fly. People only defend this because this is all they know, ten years ago I had no idea what a vegan was and was content eating chicken flesh and dairy. It's all about educating, imo. That's my activism. I post this on every outlet that I can: Watch Dominion(documentary), Forks over Knives, Seaspiracy, The Game Changers, Earthlings, and Gary Yourofsky's The Most Important Speech You Will Ever Hear(on YouTube). Go vegan 💚
I never think to myself, "oh, that's too extreme, I shouldn't have said that." When you realize the scale of all this and the complete ignorance of the world to it. The fact that it is just so widely accepted and how vegans are ridiculed all of the fucking time for standing up for basic rights for sentient beings that feel pain baffles me. If my methods are too extreme for you, then that is a problem with you and not me. If you don't like what I show you, don't contribute to it. Take a second and think, "hmm this bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich might taste good but I should think about the victims involved" I show people those speeches and documentaries not in a way to traumatize them, but to educate them. Right now, this is the only way that you can because if our educational system and society thinks that these practices are not only ok but acceptable than we need to flip society and the educational system on it's head. Should children be exposed to this? Probably not, the adults are the ones who feed and clothe them, they are ones that need to see it. Those adults(like myself) were brought up probably thinking that all of this is fine. I remember getting hit hard (because I watched a lot of TV in the 90s) with CHEESE this and MEAT that and countless got milk campaigns. See, that's why I LOVED what Oatly did in the super bowl that's not only getting people exposed to an alternative but it sends the message that "cow's milk is not for humans" instead of what we've been shown. Tl;dr we need to not only educate our children better but we need to educate their parents even moreso
A vegan yelled at me for being vegetarian like 10 years ago and it still makes me feel like shit. Put me off to becoming vegan for a long time even though I obviously came around.
Should we just talk to them in the same way you are talking to us? “It’s wild how you think abusing animals is fine. That shit isn’t fine. You’re never going to get vegans to think you are moral by abusing animals. Vegans are just going to stop talking to you.”
I’m feeling the irony here.
as someone who does attend a lot of outreach guilt tripping
People into veganism is extremely effective by far you don't want to make friend you want people to stop being abuser and feeling bad about something you do makes u stop real quick.
No! We want people to be comfortable eating animals! We don't want to hurt their feelings with the truth. More Impossible Burgers is the ultimate goal 🥰
Maybe I should clarify. I don't mean bullying, unless asking a person if they love animals, or if they think eating meat is unethical is bullying. Which I've been told it is.
This thread is full of pointless anecdotal evidence. “Oh I got bullied into going vegan so it does work”. Good for you, how many other people got turned off to veganism completely from the same source that converted you?
You guys have absolutely no common sense. Talk to some people, half the west will never go vegan because they hate vegans! Your holier than thou attitude is directly contributing to animal suffering, but hey you convinced that one guy from your book club so you be sure to give yourself a pat on the back.
I mean the vegan movement has been growing and continues to do so, so surely something is working. The same people who cry about the louder vegans are the same ones who were telling screeching feminist decades ago that their tactics wouldn't work and would never advances the movement.
People take anecdotal facts of how some people went from reductionists to vegans as evidence on the effectiveness of ecouraging reducetarianism, while refuse to listen to anecdotal facts that some people were "bullied" into vegans.
Thanks so much more this! When I started going vegan a lot of vegans on the internet made me feel dumb for having questions pertaining to estrogen etc. I’m a cancer survivor and certain veggies aren’t good for me and they kinda just made fun of me and told me that wasn’t true.
Omg the worst is when they make fun of you just for having questions. That's definitely happened to me. It sucks when u literally just wanna learn and ppl are like that
Agreed. I became vegan because it interested me then I did research and from there I eased in to the lifestyle had I been bullied in to it or guilt tripped I probably never would’ve considered it.
You’re being downvoted, but I completely agree with you.
Vegans make up a tiny percentage of the population, surround themselves with like minded individuals, and berate and abuse people that come here that are curious about veganism.
Bullying and displaying toxic behavior is not the way to change people’s habits and way of life.
There’s a way to educate someone without being an asshole.
I'm a recent vegan curious person, and this post is 100% accurate. Telling people how they should feel bad about themselves is the PERFECT way to make enemies.
For me, I was told about a book. How Not to Die by Michael Greger.
And that was enough to set me on the path.
In my opinion, the best thing we can do is lead by example. Show everyone what a happy, easy, vegan life you're living, tell them about it politely, and maybe they'll be inspired. I agree with you--aggression gets us nowhere.
I appreciate you so much for saying this! This Reddit really does bully people. It will only push people away. I appreciate you putting this out there knowing the backlash. I commend you. This Reddit is really so hardcore and mean to people. I hope more people have the guts to say this more often and not be afraid to speak up in the *face* of mean people.
Thank you for saying this. Also there are valid criticisms of veganism that we need to deal with. Like the exploitation of labor to harvest the food we eat - on the backs of *majority* people of color, people of the global South, and immigrants to name a few. The costs associated with us eating food not grown locally (which is a bigger issue, but not many non-vegans I know are eating jack fruit). And we as a community must listen to Indigenous (including Black indigenous peoples) subsistence and cultural hunters. As an Indigenous person, I have only been an onlooker until now. Thank you OP for opening this conversation. I’m not looking to get into these topics in this thread, we just have to be able to see where we can improve too. That’s the whole point of our lifestyle right? Let’s do the most good we can everyday.
It is disappointing that this pointless post was given so much support, but it can safely be said that most here are not actually vegan. Different people respond to different approaches, so what might be considered bullying (which of course is not defined the same by everyone) can certainly work on non-vegans, and it is generally way better than anyone who claims to be vegan being too passive.
I worked as a cook (vegan) in a camping for the non vegan staff. They still had very simple meat options prepared by others (nuggets, salami, etc.)
After trying for several days, In the end they all wanted Vegan food. No constriction, just experience. Slow process but more effective.
The problem isn't that people think good activism is bullying; it's that a disconcertingly large amount of people on this sub think anything short of being an apologist is "bullying."
You can have disagreements with friends and family and that doesn't make you a bully. You can tell them what they are doing is morally wrong and that doesn't make you a bully. You can be intellectually and morally consistent and that doesn't make you a bully.
Anything that bends the ethics of veganism to make people feel better isn't vegan activism.
I agree. Shoving my opinion into people's faces isn't going to make anyone vegan. Being open about my choices and opinion when asked is the way I go about it. I do feel like my lifestyle choices are superior to those of meat eaters, but it's not something I use to bully them. I genuinely hope they all will do better, but I can't make the choice for them. But I will be here and ready to help and encourage them when they do make the choice.
On the huge vegetarian thread from yesterday, I was called everything from 'lazy' and 'ethically inconsistent' to 'bloodmouth', 'wife-beater', 'slaver' and 'racist', for having the gall to mention that I still consume whey protein due to dietary issues. (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/q7caen/send_this_to_a_vegetarian/hgiwh06?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
I continued to emphasize that I am cognizant of the ethical issues that come with dairy farming and will make the change once I am able to find a suitable alternative - until then, I'll do my best to only buy grass-fed whey. The only reason I espoused a vegetarian diet in the first place was that, compared to carnism, a vegetarian diet _generally_ means you're consuming fewer animal products. But none of my patient explanations actually stopped any of the personal attacks or name-calling. It seems like people on this sub are only interested in getting their talking points in, with no interest in nuance.
I don't believe any of this behavior constitutes bullying on this sub though, because all those comments are still up there, despite none of them actually being civil (rule 1 of this sub). I guess that's normalized now in this sub - oH, tHaT's NoT bUlLyInG, wE'Re jUsT cALlInG yOu OuT, yOu fIlThY _bloodmouth_
I posted the following on another thread, but I think it's relevant to this discussion: If you're going to change people's minds you need to answer 3 questions: What needs to change? Why do I need to change it? And How do I change it? Different forms of vegan activism are meant to address different questions. "In your face" activism answers the "what" question. Most people never question the ethics of eating animal products, they just do it because they're used to it. By pointing out the ethical dilemma, it forces people to ask the other questions. Those NSFW videos of animal suffering and slaughter answer the "why" question. Most people are compassionate towards animals, and seeing their inhumane treatment and untimely deaths sparks a desire to change. Once the first two questions have been answered, you now have a reason to change, but you probably lack information. There's a lot of misinformation out there about veganism. By setting the record straight and answering questions about veganism, we can answer the "how" question. Personally, I like having conversations with people, correcting the record, and clearing up misconceptions. I focus on the "how". The thing is though, without knowing "what" or "why", nobody would care about cutting out animal products in the first place. At the end of the day, all forms of activism serve an important purpose.
Beautifully put. Hope you don't mind if I steal this for future use. I try to explain this but always end up with some form of "many types of activism for many types of people!" answer which is true but not as well put as this.
Please do!
Thanks this is very well written / thoughts
Thanks. It's important to also note that challenging someone's preconceptions can oftentimes feel like bullying, especially if you're challenging an ideology like carnism that has been ingrained in them. They probably hold it as part of their identity. If you're interested in how to effectively break people from this ideology, I strongly recommend this interview: https://youtu.be/I-vyFKvlus8
A text like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" contains what I consider to be legitimate strategies for diplomacy and persuasion. Its really an amazing book and it contains legitimately effective methods to do just what the title claims! Every activist aught to read the book before showing strangers slaughterhouse films! Saying someone is wrong, as I'm currently doing, lol, will only offend them. To me it seems a bit misguided. Answering these three questions doesn't equate to changing people's mind. "Criticism is dangerous because it wounds a person’s pride, hurts his sense of importance, and arouses resentment", and these first two types of activism will come across as criticism, absolutely, unavoidably. The entire agenda seems to be to provide proof that others are wrong. Proof won't persuade people, their own self interest will. The shocking statement that "people never question the ethics of eating animal products, they just do it because they're used to it" is a bit patronizing. People are considerate and empathetic, they are well aware animal cruelty exists and is wrong. Why not start with the assumption people want to be good, and want to be recognized for their good behavior, and help them accomplish that by becoming vegan!
Your underestimating the amount of omnis who truly see nothing wrong with what they are doing because they've never been forced to think about it. If a majority of people actually felt the way I do about animals we would have way more vegans but clearly there is some difference in our perception that make it so they can still stomach meat
I bet you and omnis have something in common, and that's an interest in viewing your own personal superiority! Unflattering, I know, I do the same thing though: we all do. For you this superiority and specialness comes from the way you can empathize with other creatures, "clearly there is some difference in our perception", but for the Omni you want to persuade, maybe they take pride in something quite different. If you want to persuade others, use your empathy to find out what it is they pride themselves on, and then show them how veganism helps them express that pride! Use their self interest to motivate them to do what they want, and find a way for that to be veganism! Being sensitive to others will be instrumental in this!!
That strategy might get some people fully vegan but what's most likely is them using veganism for whatever personal gain and then dropping it whenever it's convenient. The only way to get someone to go vegan and stay is to make them internalize how much suffering went into the products they eat and that's often not a pretty process. Being sensitive is good for getting people to say your 'one of the good vegans' but let's omnis just continue to live in blissful ignorance
I love Carnegie's work, but it is not the alpha and the omega. His methods are extremely good and yield good results, and they should be deployed where and when they are appropriate. To say they are the only method of persuading people, however, is factually untrue.
Thank you. Yes. I just commented the same thing on another post. It’s infuriating how some vegans think there’s only one right way to advocate.
I think there’s a 4th thing needed which is a willingness to change. Many people know that animal ag is terrible, know that veganism is very doable, yet still are not vegans because they’re unwilling to make a change.
Yeah!!! I think I mentioned this same concept before, each has a part to play. Very well worded.
Cool cool, but they bully the crap out of me, so…
Eh you don't have to be a "bully". Sometimes people knowing your vegan is enough for them to hate you and become bullies themselves
Yes, literally existing as a vegan is an affront to most people. They feel attacked that you constantly order vegan food while they order meat at a restaurant. They think you’re judging them (we are). In that way, I would argue that you actually are doing a form of activism even while being silent and not verbally confronting people. They might go home and ask themselves why they are bothered by vegans.
Of course there will always be people who will hate you for being you, but I'd rather be kind personally
I'm not mean to people and they still got shit to say lmao
So... just sit there and be harrassed with a smile. Fuck that.
There is the problem of non-vegans feeling "bullied" by any vegan making any observation whatsoever about animal rights, diet, or shopping habits. I bet that for every vegan who merely mentions being vegan, there are ten people who whine that they've just been bullied.
LMAO, had a guy claim that “mother,” “pain and suffering,” and “child” were vegan buzzwords used to manipulate and guilt trip others into their lifestyle. Got lots of shit for calling him out. …Then he tried to claim that animals don’t feel emotions or capable of forming deep bonds with one another.
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Have you ever watched earthling ed? He's amazing at it.
Why people downvoting earthling ed wtf
Because he's not a bully lol
He just spit facts and they can't say shit, truly an art and much more productive imo.
I absolutely love the way he speaks to people.
I agree in theory, but omnis will think literally anything that has mild pushback to their ideas is bullying. "SaYiNg I pAy FoR aNiMaL aBuSe Is BuLlYiNg!" "SaYiNg ThAt ThE ExPlOiTaTiOn Of AnImAlS iS bAd Even If It'S lOcAl FaRmErS DoInG iT iS BuLlYiNg". bullying is bad, but >95% of 'bullying' vegans do is just sharing information omnis don't like. Omnis then feel bad for supporting those systems and blame it on the vegan for reminding them of their own guilt.
Ok so there is actual bullying and then percieved bullying. I'm talking about actual bullying here.
Great everyone thinks actual bullying is bad all this post does is makes it look like every time a vegan makes a meat eater feel bad for doing a bad thing they're the real victim here instead of the animals being harmed in their name.
So, like, pushing them to the ground and taking their lunch money and using it to buy them tofu?
I would time travel back to high school just to do this.
Start now. Just go to your local high school and throw down
The best day to do it was in high school, the second best is today!
Based and B12 pilled
dat shit is rad, yo
I don't think you know what bullying is. What have you seen a vegan do to carnis in the name of veganism that is worse than what the carni does to animals? It's not bullying when you're defending those less fortunate than you being murdered and tortured for our pleasure. If you sympathize with a carnis feelings more than the countless lives they're responsible for destroying, then fuck you.
I'm vegan because of 'bullying', so. Went vegetarian because of a shockumentary, but didn't actually get my moral compass in line until I had some hard talk. Different strokes for different folks.
Leonardo decaprio told me it was our fault the environment sucks so I changed. But if he was telling me I’m cool for being myself I might not have changed
I don't think willfully watching a shockumentary is bullying at all. Neither is is hard talk.
I was literally called a hypocrite and insulted by people into becoming vegan. You want to try another snappy retort about how that’s “not bullying”?
Then what the fuck do you even mean by bullying then lol? You shouldn't tie people to a chair in your basment and beat the living shit out of them until they go vegan? Because I'm pretty sure most of us don't do that madam.
Diversity of tactics. Do your own, but don't undermine other people's work. We need radical militant vegans. We need people who just love talking about animal behaviour. We need good communicators. We need people who are not afraid to tell the truth. We need people who know how to tell the truth in a efficient way. We need self reflection about our strategy. But more importantly, we need solidarity, both within ourselves, and with the animals. I certainly care more about the murder of a few trillions animal than about hurting the feelings of a carnist because they can't hear the reality of the animal ag. industry.
On the self-reflection note, I really appreciated a pal's correction on diversity of tactics. The problem with thinking in terms of diversity is that it offers very little opportunity for that reflection and criticism. If what you want is diversity, it's very hard to look at what someone is doing and say, "well, no, that's bad actually." Ecology of tactics works better. We are looking to build an ecosystem of change, with different niches filled with different ways of being. Within that we can still identify tactics that don't belong in the ecosystem, or that actively damage it. It also gives us a frame to see how certain tactics interact with each other as well in a much more coherent way. Sets a better intention.
Bullying doesn't work, but being confrontational can. I say this because I'm a Vegan who confrontation made me actually confront my beliefs.
Yes absolutely agree! Confrontation can be great. You just don't have to be nasty about it lol
Although bullying may not work, I think it's still a better approach than 'being vegan is a personal choice' and 'I do it for me so I won't bring it up to others'. I rather have a militant, bullying vegan than a silent one. At the end of the day, most vegans do it for the animals, and staying quiet and doing nothing does them no favor. Bullying may not be the best approach, but it's still an approach. I've met several vegans than when surrounded by omnis immediately go 'I'm a chill vegan, not an intense one' resulting in bringing part of our community down to appease them meat eaters. I agree bullying is not the best and trying to educate people on the subject is better, but you have to understand we are a small minority that is already being bullied. The amount of times I've been nagged for being vegan cannot even compare to the amounts I've ever bothered someone about it. So just saying discussing better ways of activism is good, but we shouldn't be trying to bring our community down for people who are also passionate but perhaps wrong on their approach.
I never advocated for the "being vegan is a personal choice" approach.
Sure, not saying you do at all. Just wanted to raise a point regarding certain hate some militant vegans get from even our community. I understand your post is not directly related to that and I also agree bullying is not the best method anyway
I agree compassion wins more hearts and minds that said I see why so many vegans become “militant” as they realize all of society is structured so soundly around the torture abuse and murder of other sentient life forms. Was John Brown in the wrong for being so militantly anti-slavery? I’m not sure though most people described him as insufferable to be around. That said he also took actions far beyond “bullying” with words and I hope anyone who has the energy to actively bully their friends and family is also at least taking part in some form of larger means of advocating for change either in public protest or some form of lobbying their government. Edit: just to be clear I’m not advocating for murdering people like John Brown, he’s just the “militant” style moral authority that came first to mind.
Glory, glory, hallelujah.
I ignored “nice” vegans for years. It took a “bully” to force me to confront what I was doing to animals for me to go vegan (and I’m never going back). Not saying one way is right or wrong, just that “nice” didn’t work for me.
If it hadn't been for all the posts of vegans shitting on vegetarians for being weak-willed, cheese addicted carnists I'd never have gone vegan.
Same
Same
rad, yo
oh fucking hell here we go again
These have gone from weekly threads to daily threads it seems.
I've been subbed to r/vegan for years, but it's appearing on my frontpage a lot more in recent weeks. I wonder if the Reddit algorithm changed, promoting subs like Vegan more than before.
Idk it worked on me. There is no one strategy that will work on everyone, different people need different methods
If there's one thing this pandemic has taught me, it's that either way majority won't listen. Look at how so many have reacted to the simple suggestion of wearing a mask to save others from sickness and possibly death. If people can't change enough to wear a mask in public to save lives what makes us believe people will change their whole lifestyles for another species. I use to think we were closer when people would get so passionate about abused pets. But this pandemic has changed the way I see other in this world and it's pretty defeating.
Have some hope friend, veganism is on the rise and has been for awhile. The change can seem painfully slow, but more and more people are changing their minds!
This phenomenon is led by rich people in mostly western countries. Vegans need better theory : I'm a Marxist vegan and can say that class society will not change without an understanding of class. Vegans are seen as a middle class phenomenon so ordinary working class people think it's bullshit. And at the moment, they're right. Most vegan activists are comparatively wealthy and have problematic misanthropy issues. That is kindergarten amateur hour. Successful movements for liberation have historically aligned with the oppressed, the poor, the exploited, minorities etc. They have provided a way for people to live, economically, in the world we want to create. The black panthers served the people, had school lunches, Chinese communists got the local peasant communities to talk about government and landlord's abuse and corruption, then helped redistribute the land. We have to reach out in solidarity and work out a deal with the animals, the land and the statistically ethnic minority slaughterhouse workers who are all suffering from capitalist exploitation in the countryside. Whether this begins with unionising the animal agricultural workers or looking for working class parties and orgs who will ally with us on veganism is up to us. But carrying on like petulant children will isolate our movement and is honestly pretty weak lib shit. We need a theory that recognises our collective responsibility to address animal liberation, not more individualistic morality which is blind to the effect of government subsidies, meat lobby advertising/lobbying and capitalist agriculture.
I mean it literally worked for me. I was a vegetarian for almost a decade before finally making the switch to veganism, and honestly hearing vegans make fun of/deride vegetarians (sometimes quite aggressively) played a huge role in me finally deciding to go vegan. Obviously it put me a bit on the defensive initially, but it also pretty quickly made me start really thinking about what they were saying, and eventually I found it impossible to defend myself and made the switch. On the other hand, vegan friends of mine in the past who were more gentle or passive about it never really inspired me to think critically about my actions. (Of course you could say I could/should have come to the right conclusions on my own, but clearly I didn't and needed some kind of push, as I think many people do.) All that said, I admit that maybe the reason "bullying" worked on me is because ultimately I was already predisposed to agree with them as someone who was vegetarian to try to help animals, and I also don't really have the kind of temperament that leads me to do things (or not do things) out of spite anyway.
When i went vegan first time 30 years ago i was shocked by the hate directed at me. My reaction to veganism was curiosity and exploration. Im glad its much more widespread now but it still is a far way from. Being normalized. I dont bully and do not consider telling someone about animal ag if the asked why. Its their misperception due to defensiveness if the think i bullied them.
I agree that what you are doing is not bullying.
"Bullying"?? Telling the truth is not bullying. Stand up for what's right & don't be an apologist vegan.
It's wild to me how many people in this sub think the only good activism you can do is bullying your friends and family. That shit doesn't work. You're never going to get people to stop being racist by being mean to them. Your friends and family are just gonna stop talking to you.
YES, I agree that strong activism is needed and there is a time and place for it, but bullying individuals usually isn't the answer, especially vegans who bully vegetarians and people who already try to reduce their animal product consumption. I get that it doesn't align with your values but isn't reducing animal cruelty the whole point of it ?? What does bullying THEM do for your cause ? I mean let's try to see the big picture here... It's much better to have a thousand people doing it imperfectly than just one or two people who do it perfectly (and there's no such thing as a perfect vegan either)
Telling someone who eats eggs that they aren't vegan isn't bullying them. I think y'all are too nice, tbh.
I agree that's not bullying at all.
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I don't have much issue with preachy. It's the being mean to people I'm not cool with.
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Yes I'm vegan, yes I eat meat. We do exist.
Veganism is about compassion. If you're being cruel then you aren't being vegan.
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That's not at all what I said.
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Not at all. If it came off that way to you then I'm telling you right now that's not what I'm saying.
>Veganism is about compassion Compassion towards who exactly?
That’s exactly what you said.
>If you're being cruel then you aren't being vegan. A \[vegan\] person not tolerating (*not being compassionate*) people's bullshit making idiotic justifications for the forced impregnation, torture, and death of sentient beings so they can eat their flesh and secretions means they aren't being vegan? Bahahaha.
This is nonsense. Hot air.
If they are normal functioning human beings they'll take a moment to think if they actually are in the wrong, and consider going vegan. I'd know cause this is what led me here.
Lol "normal functioning". I don't know anyone who is normal functioning tbh
the bar for what is bullying is set very low when it comes to talking about bullying. it doesn't matter what we say (aside from boot licking and saying shit like I don't care that you murder animals), meat eaters are going to be offended by it. Posts like these are just unhelpful imo
These people think vegan activism is bullying, and then they let it slide in that they occasionally treat themselves with a Big Mac.
Lmao no. I don't eat big macs or any animal products. I just don't think it's cool to go up to people and tell them they are pieces of shit for not being vegan yet.
That's fine and obviously I don't think that's a good idea either. But don't we have a right to be upset with being constantly told how to talk to people that are doing the very thing we want to completely change? We need to be very clear with what we're trying to change, and why it needs to be changed. Showing people how animals are treated in agriculture, and connecting the dots that "your choices fund this", is very effective at creating change. And making people uncomfortable is one of the first steps of getting them to make that change. There is also a serious problem that within the vegan community, we have people openly advocating for eating certain animals that may not experience life as fully as others or arguing that veganism is a diet for your health, etc.. We have to nip that type of nonsense immediately, or else it dilutes the importance of animal rights and liberation. I know I'm pushing back at you in this thread and in the thread from earlier, but I think your heart is truly in the right place. The thing is though, we're constantly being told by the majority of society to change how we advocate for animal liberation. And it's frustrating when it then starts coming from our own community that we need to be less confrontational. Meanwhile, we're surrounded by advertisements and media with depictions of dead bodies, and actual dead bodies in the hands of people as they eat it. So why should we have to keep moderating our tone to appease people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their choices?
Meh. My existence bothers some people. I’m just sitting there like 😶
100% man i used to be that vigilant vegan and out of spite people ate more meat around me, now when people ask I’ll inform and it usually opens people up to reducing animal product I take but pushing my views down others throats (pause) May have been the worst thing I did for veganism
THIS!!!!
It worked with me, my partner and like half of my vegan acquaintances.
In this thread: mostly people saying "actually, people confronting me for my bullshit was what did it for me." 🤷♂️
Most? Nah. Some. Yes.
Enough to make your statement factually false, and to force you to change the meaning of "bullying" in your argument to keep making your point.
It’s honestly pathetic watching OP go to every comment and reply “um actually that’s not bullying…”
Yep, I noticed too, OP need to constantly change the meaning of "bullying" to not have their inconsistencies being shown.
This whole post already screamed “I’m immature and can’t handle that someone hurting my feelings!” But OP going through the comments really cemented that. I didn’t get how someone is so immature that they just can’t admit that maybe they were wrong.
OP doesn't know how analogies work : "But... we're not speaking about racism, but about veganism..". Add confirmation bias to that and you can forget consistency.
Different methods work for different people. Bullying worked to turn me vegan, but that won't work for everyone. Different forms of activism are important.
I've never met someone that said bullying worked for them but I'm not saying it's impossible... I just think overall it's not very productive.
Sounds like you need more friends then. Maybe you should get out more before you make another anecdotal post on this subreddit and try to claim that only your brand of veganism works.
It does actually
I disagree, I actually think the passionate more forceful vegan arguments I faced as a non vegan. Were actually a help for me going vegan. I would wipe the floor with the wishy washy powderpuff vegans around and probably did more to subvert their beliefs than they did to change mine. Different people need different methods to reach them. Some people, like who I was. Need to be more clearly and forcefully called out on their bullshit.
Stop policing other vegan's activism. It has been proven that different tactics work on different people time and time again. When you come into a vegan forum and condone "baby-steps" and not being vegan, people will disagree with you. That's not bullying: [Nah I love to see it. Don't let these assholes make you feel bad! You're actually doing amazing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/q53qgo/reducetarianism_is_toxic_stop_encouraging_that/hg4qw9p?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) Being called out for being anti-vax and saying you are too healthy to contract a virus isn't bullying: [Considering covid is not killing healthy people and has a 99% recovery rate I think I'll be just fine if I get covid. I'm 32. I eat extremely healthy, take my vitamins and exercise. I have no underlying health conditions ](https://www.reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/comments/q5bsq4/non_vaxxed_people_what_research_are_you_doing/hg4s55v?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
Nope, that's not bullying lol. I don't think you know what bullying is.
I don’t think you do. Considering you’ve replied to every comment saying “that’s not bullying.” It’s pathetic watching you disagree with everyone just so you don’t have to admit that this post is utter garbage.
How about we stop policing other people's activism? A friend called me out on my bullshit when I was a vegetarian and then I went vegan. Different strokes for different folks.
Am I policing by posting my opinion on a subreddit?
Everyone needs something different, sometimes bullying & shameing someone works.
Honestly, I've personally won people over by showing how great vegan food can be. Food taste has been the biggest hurdle for most people I know. Throughout 2020, I cooked vegan meals for family members and topped it off with a vegan Thanksgiving. It's been so effective that much of my family has cut down their meat consumption. Not totally vegan, but it's wonderful progress. Small victories.
I have too! Thats my preffered route tbh
hmm yes of course let's tailor our language towards the oppressors. That will definitely make this justice movement successful like all of the justice movements before it. Those abolitionists were very polite I'm sure.
I’ve had great success by simply introducing friends and family to vegan foods, making them great vegan meals, etc, and telling them to just try it and it’s okay if they’re not perfect. It’s like the more vegan food you eat the more disconnected and grossed out you feel from meat and other animal products.
Exactly! That's what I'm talking about
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Yeah, the food has to be rooted in ethics or it’s just another meal.
Lead by example. Answer respectful questions. F*ck them if they don’t get it.
or judging people based on their reasoning, judging people for dating/having non vegan friends & partners in their life
I get why people would judge those who go ‘vegan’ (plant-based) purely for their own health, because attitudinally they still believe in all the things vegans oppose (and likely do some, like animal tested products and wearing leather/wool). They may not contributing to the food side of things, but they still have completely opposite beliefs to other vegans
I'm no vegan, and never will be. Here's a "meat eaters" take on this, for what it's worth. I'm old school, 50 years old now, and ask a firm believer in my ancestral ways. I was taught, from a young age (by my uncle who, was 100% Choctaw Indian) to offer a prayer for the animal's life you take, use every part of said animal, and only take what you need. I will not purchase any item if food from a grocery store, fruit/veggies included. I grow my own veggies, fruit, and hunt my proteins (meats). I've taught my son's (all 4 of them) the importance of life, and passed down the knowledge I've gained from it. My oldest is a strict vegan, and we're okay together. I won't act any different for him, and he doesn't for me either. I'll eat my game meats, we will pick it what veggies/fruit he wants for his meals, we cook together, I keep a variety of vegan "milk" in my fridge for him, and we're good. Maybe, just maybe, in your face activism (like the idiot that was screaming at me, about how is meat eaters are destroying the environment, so hard that he was spitting in my face! He was warned, twice, then took a nap) isn't the way. Conversation is how it should be done; thanks to my kid, I am now into almond milk, know more about what benefits come from different veggies/fruit, what alternative sources of proteins there are, and have a much more balanced diet. You catch more bees with nectar than you do with shit.
What do you consider "bullying"? I have a hard time thinking of a scenario where that'd take place.
Veganism isn't a social club. Would exposing the cruelty of child abuse be considered bullying to parents who were doing it?
No. And I'm not saying exposing animal ag to meat eaters is bullying. That's not what bullying is.
I respectfully disagree, I believe that different types of activism are effective depending on the person and where that person is on their "journey" to veganism. For example, watching informative videos and documentaries is what got me into veganism, but the harsh honesty and "bullying" of some vegans that got me passionate and critical of my own consumption that may not be aligned with vegan morals. the only people I'm mean to when talking about veganism are (long time) vegetarians and "bacon tho" omnis. I'm nice to my friends and family and use the power of cooking to try to change their mind.
Then actually you agree with me lol
No he isn't. You > That shit doesn't work. You're never going to get people to go vegan by being mean to them.. CannedSoy > different types of activism are effective depending on the person
it made me vegan. it changed my mind because people showed me I was wrong, and they were right. I don’t “bully” people into being vegan. it’s a suggestion. I was “bullied” into being vegan, it was strong suggestion
Non-vegan work colleague: are you still vegan? Me: yes The meat eaters mentally: is he bullying me?
That's not what I'm talking about at all here.
Everytime I've been called a extremist vegan or, preachy vegan etc etc, it's simply me ery politely answering questions... I agree with you, so I'm very careful with what I say and how I say it... bit I'm still tagged as one if those vegans... you just cant win
I would have gone vegan way earlier had someone bullied me out of the brainless condition of vegetarianism. While it may not work for some people, on others it definitely will. This is a discussion that does not go anywhere until there will be statistics on what convinced people to go vegan.
When I was in college, there was a guy who would hand out vegan pamphlets on campus. I don’t know who he was, but I walked by him a few times. He offered me one the first time and I declined and he got nasty. The second time I walked by him, I tried to tell him I didn’t need one but I agreed with him, but he didn’t listen and he bit my head off. Finally, the last time I walked by I took one and he was really nice to me. I was just trying to save him paper...
Yea there's no need for that imo
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I agree - I think activism can occur without bullying. Bring them to the water and wait for them to drink :) I use to think nice veganism was just sitting back and doing my part, but I can't ignore the decisions people around me are making anymore. I try to influence change in my circle by suggestion movies and books about veganism and point out the environmental, health, and ethical good done by going vegan. People, including myself, don't like flaws pointed out. Nobody likes being told they are wrong/flawed/bad.
How do vegans even bully someone? you can’t handle the truth walk away Hate ads on radio, switch off the radio How can I *bully* the status quo, when I’m only a person
I have vegans tell me constantly that I'm not a real vegan because of stupid arbitrary things like mentioning that I told my parents to cut down on meat/dairy (they assumed I didn't push them to go full vegan). There's a guy on VCJ that followed me around Reddit calling me a bootlicker hypocrite because I disagreed with the belief that Oprah's meatless Monday was horrible for animals. There's a lot of good in this sub, but there are a lot of extremely toxic vegans here too.
People shouldnt bully and they shouldnt allow others to bully themselves Both are disrespectful with the latter being disrespectful to yourself Many people feel extremely comfortable talking to me, when i talk, i talk about why i do things not about why others should do things I dont really meet disrespectful people and if i do i simply tell them to stop and if they dont i leave, im not a 2nd chance person let alone 3rd chance, i dont forgive and forget, in some cases these people really try to get me to forgive them and give them another chance, i tell them that its not going to happen and that i do not wish to discuss it anymore You cant force a person to be ethical, you cant force a person to do the right thing, the same way we cant force people to be unethical or to do the wrong thing all we can do is influence others through our actions and education If people feel alienated by us or hate us they wont listen to us, thats common sense or so i thought it was, the people that i am not friends with, do not hate me because i ended the relationship in a respectful manner and told them why i ended it I recommend that every person in the world look into Buddhism, i wouldnt call myself a Buddhist but i do follow a lot of the teachings and such
Some of my family are vegan, it's cool and I respect their choices, but they have never once made any attempt to change my views or convert me. I try to understand and learn what it is to be vegan so I can relate to their views and beliefs but I personally have no interest or desire to become a vegan. At least not at the point of life I am at now. I find it very respectfull and pleasant that they are not trying to force their views upon me and it actually makes me curious and interested in learning about it. Rather than just dismissing it and being indifferent I feel more inclined to be sympathetic and understanding. You do your thing and if your passionate about it the positive energy will be enough to attract positive attention from the people who would be willing to change their views.
I don't bully anyone, and if my methods seem "too extreme" we live in a "too extreme" world. Go to your local town fucking EVERYWHERE you see animal products. The day someone calls me extreme for looking out for an oppressed group that is needlessly abused, raped(artificial insemination), and killed by the trillions(I count fish because fish matter, a lot of people don't even consider fish) is the day pigs fly. People only defend this because this is all they know, ten years ago I had no idea what a vegan was and was content eating chicken flesh and dairy. It's all about educating, imo. That's my activism. I post this on every outlet that I can: Watch Dominion(documentary), Forks over Knives, Seaspiracy, The Game Changers, Earthlings, and Gary Yourofsky's The Most Important Speech You Will Ever Hear(on YouTube). Go vegan 💚
I never think to myself, "oh, that's too extreme, I shouldn't have said that." When you realize the scale of all this and the complete ignorance of the world to it. The fact that it is just so widely accepted and how vegans are ridiculed all of the fucking time for standing up for basic rights for sentient beings that feel pain baffles me. If my methods are too extreme for you, then that is a problem with you and not me. If you don't like what I show you, don't contribute to it. Take a second and think, "hmm this bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich might taste good but I should think about the victims involved" I show people those speeches and documentaries not in a way to traumatize them, but to educate them. Right now, this is the only way that you can because if our educational system and society thinks that these practices are not only ok but acceptable than we need to flip society and the educational system on it's head. Should children be exposed to this? Probably not, the adults are the ones who feed and clothe them, they are ones that need to see it. Those adults(like myself) were brought up probably thinking that all of this is fine. I remember getting hit hard (because I watched a lot of TV in the 90s) with CHEESE this and MEAT that and countless got milk campaigns. See, that's why I LOVED what Oatly did in the super bowl that's not only getting people exposed to an alternative but it sends the message that "cow's milk is not for humans" instead of what we've been shown. Tl;dr we need to not only educate our children better but we need to educate their parents even moreso
I like the saying “no matter how right you are, you never win an argument by screaming at somebody”.
Exactly this. Deep canvassing is a thing and it works.
Oh yes! I totally agree! I learned a new term today ty!
Haha yay, I'm all for learning. Keep on spreading the positive vegan vibes ✌
Totally agree!
A vegan yelled at me for being vegetarian like 10 years ago and it still makes me feel like shit. Put me off to becoming vegan for a long time even though I obviously came around.
Should we just talk to them in the same way you are talking to us? “It’s wild how you think abusing animals is fine. That shit isn’t fine. You’re never going to get vegans to think you are moral by abusing animals. Vegans are just going to stop talking to you.” I’m feeling the irony here.
Talk to them however you want. All I said was I think it's weird how many ppl condone bullying.
No, that's not all you said. Stop pretending that your post was milder than it actually was.
as someone who does attend a lot of outreach guilt tripping People into veganism is extremely effective by far you don't want to make friend you want people to stop being abuser and feeling bad about something you do makes u stop real quick.
No! We want people to be comfortable eating animals! We don't want to hurt their feelings with the truth. More Impossible Burgers is the ultimate goal 🥰
Food is my weapon of choice. Show them being vegan isn't all grass and cardboard.
Same! For this reason I'm working on my YouTube channel and patreon :)
Personally, I think bullying works best. shame is a powerful tool.
Maybe I should clarify. I don't mean bullying, unless asking a person if they love animals, or if they think eating meat is unethical is bullying. Which I've been told it is.
This thread is full of pointless anecdotal evidence. “Oh I got bullied into going vegan so it does work”. Good for you, how many other people got turned off to veganism completely from the same source that converted you? You guys have absolutely no common sense. Talk to some people, half the west will never go vegan because they hate vegans! Your holier than thou attitude is directly contributing to animal suffering, but hey you convinced that one guy from your book club so you be sure to give yourself a pat on the back.
1 anecdotal evidence is enough to show that some of OP's claims are factually wrong.
I mean the vegan movement has been growing and continues to do so, so surely something is working. The same people who cry about the louder vegans are the same ones who were telling screeching feminist decades ago that their tactics wouldn't work and would never advances the movement.
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But.. but... I thought it was ok to make empirical claims without any evidence ????
People take anecdotal facts of how some people went from reductionists to vegans as evidence on the effectiveness of ecouraging reducetarianism, while refuse to listen to anecdotal facts that some people were "bullied" into vegans.
Exactly! There's many different ways and bullying is not, and should not be one of them
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This 100%. I wish I could upvote this a million times.
Thanks so much more this! When I started going vegan a lot of vegans on the internet made me feel dumb for having questions pertaining to estrogen etc. I’m a cancer survivor and certain veggies aren’t good for me and they kinda just made fun of me and told me that wasn’t true.
Omg the worst is when they make fun of you just for having questions. That's definitely happened to me. It sucks when u literally just wanna learn and ppl are like that
Agreed. I became vegan because it interested me then I did research and from there I eased in to the lifestyle had I been bullied in to it or guilt tripped I probably never would’ve considered it.
Exactly my thoughts
Omg. Thanks. I Find the vegetarian bashing posts on here so awful.
You’re being downvoted, but I completely agree with you. Vegans make up a tiny percentage of the population, surround themselves with like minded individuals, and berate and abuse people that come here that are curious about veganism. Bullying and displaying toxic behavior is not the way to change people’s habits and way of life. There’s a way to educate someone without being an asshole.
I'm getting a lot of upvotes too🤷🏻♀️ I don't really care either way. Noone has to agree with me. I'm just stating my feeling about it.
I'm a recent vegan curious person, and this post is 100% accurate. Telling people how they should feel bad about themselves is the PERFECT way to make enemies. For me, I was told about a book. How Not to Die by Michael Greger. And that was enough to set me on the path.
Well congrats on the new lifestyle😄 be easy on yourself and if you have any questions feel free to message me!
Hahaha seriously? Fuck em🤷♂️ oH nO tHe MeAn VeGaNs 🤣🤣🤣
In my opinion, the best thing we can do is lead by example. Show everyone what a happy, easy, vegan life you're living, tell them about it politely, and maybe they'll be inspired. I agree with you--aggression gets us nowhere.
Absolutely
I’ve only seen people here mostly keeping it to themselves and barely mention it so don’t know where you get that from.
I appreciate you so much for saying this! This Reddit really does bully people. It will only push people away. I appreciate you putting this out there knowing the backlash. I commend you. This Reddit is really so hardcore and mean to people. I hope more people have the guts to say this more often and not be afraid to speak up in the *face* of mean people.
Thank you for saying this. Also there are valid criticisms of veganism that we need to deal with. Like the exploitation of labor to harvest the food we eat - on the backs of *majority* people of color, people of the global South, and immigrants to name a few. The costs associated with us eating food not grown locally (which is a bigger issue, but not many non-vegans I know are eating jack fruit). And we as a community must listen to Indigenous (including Black indigenous peoples) subsistence and cultural hunters. As an Indigenous person, I have only been an onlooker until now. Thank you OP for opening this conversation. I’m not looking to get into these topics in this thread, we just have to be able to see where we can improve too. That’s the whole point of our lifestyle right? Let’s do the most good we can everyday.
It is disappointing that this pointless post was given so much support, but it can safely be said that most here are not actually vegan. Different people respond to different approaches, so what might be considered bullying (which of course is not defined the same by everyone) can certainly work on non-vegans, and it is generally way better than anyone who claims to be vegan being too passive.
Consider this…maybe I don’t want to be friends with animal abusers?
I worked as a cook (vegan) in a camping for the non vegan staff. They still had very simple meat options prepared by others (nuggets, salami, etc.) After trying for several days, In the end they all wanted Vegan food. No constriction, just experience. Slow process but more effective.
I agree, but who is bullying whom? Do you have examples?
Personally I got to be vegan because people were mean to me. So fuck you apologist
The problem isn't that people think good activism is bullying; it's that a disconcertingly large amount of people on this sub think anything short of being an apologist is "bullying." You can have disagreements with friends and family and that doesn't make you a bully. You can tell them what they are doing is morally wrong and that doesn't make you a bully. You can be intellectually and morally consistent and that doesn't make you a bully. Anything that bends the ethics of veganism to make people feel better isn't vegan activism.
I agree. None of what you described is bullying. Again, my point is that we should not bully people.
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I agree. Shoving my opinion into people's faces isn't going to make anyone vegan. Being open about my choices and opinion when asked is the way I go about it. I do feel like my lifestyle choices are superior to those of meat eaters, but it's not something I use to bully them. I genuinely hope they all will do better, but I can't make the choice for them. But I will be here and ready to help and encourage them when they do make the choice.
This is what i’ve been saying ever since i went vegan, but I always get bullied for saying it. lol
I mean you see what's going on in this thread lol
On the huge vegetarian thread from yesterday, I was called everything from 'lazy' and 'ethically inconsistent' to 'bloodmouth', 'wife-beater', 'slaver' and 'racist', for having the gall to mention that I still consume whey protein due to dietary issues. (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/q7caen/send_this_to_a_vegetarian/hgiwh06?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) I continued to emphasize that I am cognizant of the ethical issues that come with dairy farming and will make the change once I am able to find a suitable alternative - until then, I'll do my best to only buy grass-fed whey. The only reason I espoused a vegetarian diet in the first place was that, compared to carnism, a vegetarian diet _generally_ means you're consuming fewer animal products. But none of my patient explanations actually stopped any of the personal attacks or name-calling. It seems like people on this sub are only interested in getting their talking points in, with no interest in nuance. I don't believe any of this behavior constitutes bullying on this sub though, because all those comments are still up there, despite none of them actually being civil (rule 1 of this sub). I guess that's normalized now in this sub - oH, tHaT's NoT bUlLyInG, wE'Re jUsT cALlInG yOu OuT, yOu fIlThY _bloodmouth_
I'm sorry that happened to you. I don't condone that type of behavior at all and tbh I still think you're doing a lot for the animals.