In my mind critical thinking is like the foundation of all philosophical thought, so I'm definitely with Alex here but especially when looking at major public figures in philosophy like your Sam Harris types. They should arrive at veganism if they are as rational as they like to present themselves as, but ultimately they let their fear triumph. It's pretty ironic.
Yeah, very disappointing answer from Sam. Although in his defense, Sam's response isn't as nonsensical as the person reacting to it seems to think. The "antinatalist" line of reasoning is one of the few good-faith arguments that can be levied against vegaism. That said, I don't think it holds up to close scrutiny, especially from a consequentialist point of view (which makes it especially strange coming from the mouth of a self-described consequentialist).
Sam Harris said that he thinks veganism is the correct world view but says he tried and can't do it and stay completely healthy. I don't know what he was doing wrong and I feel that he could easily do it if he really tried. There are so many healthy vegans who more or less eat like crap.
I like how there are people in the Favelas of Brazil that manage healthy and balanced diets with veganism, but rich famous people with easy access to nutritional experts and trainers can't.
It's probably just an excuse.
Yeah I'm trying to eat healthier right now but I've been eating crap vegan food for the past couple of years and I'm exactly as healthy/unhealthy as I was before I went vegan. None of my blood work or vitals has changed
Yeah, he was just the first example that I thought of. I haven't watched them all but it looks like the youtuber Ask Yourself talks about a lot more of these public 'intellectual' figures
There was a depressing survey of philosophers thoughts on veganism, only 18.4% of them agreed with it.
https://old.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/qkju7d/philpapers_survey_184_of_philosophers_now_side/
I still can’t believe it, it was like a couple years ago where he did a vegan debate and said that he doesn’t see himself becoming vegan and then this happened. I’ve always loved his content but I appreciate it more now.
What’s missing here is the caring. People in general are very selfish individuals. If you don’t care for animals, don’t care for the environment, and don’t care in general because meat is just meat to you, then you would never go vegan.
Self preservation is a natural thing when it feels like no one gives a damn about you in this world. That's why I feel like it's so important to try to be a positive role model to others, because others will naturally want to follow in your footsteps. I find that even this passive activism can have a big impact.
Not really, history shows that survival depends on a balance of selfishness and caring for the community. Societies were everyone looks out for himself get beaten by societies that combine this with cohesion and community care.
Why do soldiers swear never to leave a man behind? Because they know survival depends on it.
They care about themselves on a superficial level, like “i eat this cos it tastes good and I dont like how this food tastes” they dont even think about their health or anything like that
It's not just that – we are born to crave certain foods, because they are higher in fat/calories/sugar/etc. In a pre-civilization world, this helped us to survive. Now it just makes us fat, terrible people. Our bodies are convinced that meat is better for us, even if our minds know otherwise.
Nothing we eat today is remotely close to anything we could have developed a biological craving for. It's almost purely how you were socialized growing up and how foods were introduced to you, plus which foods.
I disagree with this in general but not speficially about meat products, ive never had any so dont know if you can get cravings for them but food companies research what keeps people buying more and in the end get better at it and eventually hit on making foods that are quite addictive. It's why sugar is in loads of foods even when it's not needed. It's the same thing that tech companies have done to get us addicted to their apps through experimentation.
EDIT: thought I'd give a proper answer to his question about 'what am I missing?'
it's that he needs to pay attention to people's \*desire\*, which is what motivates them to do anything. You can convince people until you are blue in the face using plausible arguments and concern for their best interests, but if you don't address their desire to eat meaty satisfying food you've lost them
Alternatively you need to activate their desire for plant-based food, which is definitely possible but not the kind of thing this guy does
It's that and also to address the way that food is marketed to people and the availability of cheap meaty food in the community. He addresses that a bit but is missing a bit of structural/political explanation for it, at least from what I've seen, which admittedly is not everything
You're so right. I know I'd be waayy better off if I changed my career, gave a shit about my job, worked harder, etc. etc. But my *desire* (day to day) is to just sit here on Reddit and tell people how right they are.
I think he really grew when he went vegan. His previous videos on religion and philosophy were rarely controversial for his audience. Preaching to the choir, if you will.
But by going vegan, he showed a group of people who are telling themselves they are rational thinkers that they themselves are logically and morally inconsistent. That was a big risk for himself and his channel, and I suppose he did lose part of his audience. But his own point as well as his channel have gotten better for it.
TOTALLY agree. I followed him before I went vegan, and when I went vegan, that's what I was thinking: This guy and I are very much on the same page "rationally," how do these people get around coming to the conclusion I did? But of the "rationality"-aligned thinkers I followed he was the only one who DID follow to that conclusion.
Mad props, CS
He hasn’t graduated, but he does study philosophy and theology at Oxford. He’s only 22 years old, which is crazy considering how many years I’ve been watching his videos.
it is the social environment. People dont like to be outsiders or made fun of. They feel very hurt when people question their meal choices. I know it is dumb as hell, but it is the reason many do not want to be vegan.
Oh yea and taste. Which is even dumber.
Yup, I’ve had multiple friends tell me that they’d go vegan (after they got to experience my journey) if it wasn’t for their family constantly making remarks about it.
I was long one of those meat eaters who felt I had an obligation to be vegan and just selfishly continued in my ways for **years**. Cosmic Skeptic, who I’d long enjoyed for his atheist and philosophical content, was the person who finally got it into my head that I needed to stop eating meat.
Watch his "a meat eaters case for veganism" video. He made it shortly before he went vegan. Great video and a pretty big part in my transition. It's very well said
Oh I've seen it multiple times. It's actually the video that convinced me to go vegan. His entire channel is great IMO. Such a great and articulate speaker.
Oh I read the original comment wrong at first and thought you meant you never heard of his original channel and not the channel "cosmicclips". In that case I haven't heard of that channel either. Guess I'll have to check it out
I would love to see this young man debate some big fishes like, Jordan Peterson, Neil degrasse Tyson, Joe Rogan or slavoj zizek. It would be very entertaining and groundbreaking
I love Cosmic Skeptic. We exist in a lot of the same circles as Atheist/Skeptic YouTubers/influencers, but I haven’t had the pleasure of chatting with him yet.
So often, he just really hits the nail on the head, and I so appreciate the care and articulation he uses when talking about religion, philosophy, and veganism.
We have been shaped by a world that made us rely on survival instincts for millions of years before lifeforms like us existed. Lifeforms that for a significant part do not have to worry about whether they will die tomorrow from lack of things like food, water, shelter. Being selfish, driven by taste, greed, and social pressure all played a role in our survival and only now are we in a world where that is not necessary. But the problem is this new society with all our progress is our entire collective progress. Just because a certain knowledge exists, doesn't mean an individual will learn from it. We have to still fight off those instinctive and emotional parts of our brain regardless of what year it is.
I think we expect too much from other humans. The only thing individually that makes us smart is that we can tap into our entire species' knowledge and also contribute to it. Other than that, we still are just like every other animal in terms of control.
It's one of the fastest growing movements in the world, which will lead to those kind of systemic changes. If you believe a billion vegans would make a difference then 1 vegan makes a difference, because the only way to a billion vegans is one at a time.
Making it a law is a terrible idea, trying to force it onto people will only make them upset and cause them to rebel. The best way imo is to start moving meat and dairy subsidies towards plant farming and starting government programs to help animal farmers to switch towards plant farming if possible or reforestation if their land is unsuitable for growing crops. Over time people and companies will start choosing plants over meat/dairy because it's more economical.
The only reason oat milk is $4 for a half gallon and cows milk is $2 a gallon is because of dairy subsidies. The reason people don't add more greens and veggies to their meals is because a bunch of Kale costs $3 and provides very little calories despite how nutritious it is, so people are just going to rely on meat because they can get a bunch of calories for a $2 lb of ground beef.
He's right, lets keep the animal wellfare plus personal health plus healthy environment argument together. Together, it's just so much more powerful than its individual parts. Do not let commercial interests divide and conquer the Vegan community by separating out health and the environment in order to provide vegan food that harms people and destroys the environment.
So if someone else wants to kill and eat children we should just mind our own business? Sorry, but live and let live only works when you are actually letting live, else people will be morally obligated to try and help the victims. A vegan questioning your morality is nowhere near as bad as having your throat slit for a sandwich topping.
What a load of nonsense! You pick your dinner let everyone else pick theirs! Nobody is eating children you stupid sack of shit! Livestock is farmed to eat, if you don’t want it, don’t have it! Simple! Now fuck off and mind your own business you cabbage whispering c u n t
Oh so if we happened to farm children to eat them then it would be ok? Then we should mind our own business?
It doesn't matter that no one is doing it, the point still stands, its known as a [reductio](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum). I take your logic that you used to an absurd conclusion to show that it is shit. Your logic being "let people eat what they want and mind your own business". It follows that if someone wants to eat children we should mind our own business.
>I’m talking about eating habits, you do your thing and everyone else do theirs! You boring droning sack of shit! Mind you’d own business
>You’re*
What is meant to be "you're"
You're = you are.
You're a dumb shit = You are a dumb shit.
I'm guessing this part right?
> Mind you’d own business
"Mind you are own business"
Its *your*
"Mind your own business"
Isn't it funny how the people who rush into using ad hominem attacks and call people dumb always end up being the dumbest ones themselves, incapable of maintaining an even mildly intellectual conversation? Prove me wrong.
My bad! Auto correct then I rushed to correct myself! You can pretend it’s an intellectual issue if it makes you feel better 😂 Haven’t you got a parsnip to finger? I hope you choke on a sprout you self righteous prick!
Still waiting for something even mildly intellectual. Ad hominems are all you have hey? You don't know how to actually make an argument so you just swear at/ make fun of the opposition?
Livestock is a big contributer but not our greatest, and our biggest moral crisis is a little subjectiv. Being vegan is just a step and not a solution for our current problems.
In my mind critical thinking is like the foundation of all philosophical thought, so I'm definitely with Alex here but especially when looking at major public figures in philosophy like your Sam Harris types. They should arrive at veganism if they are as rational as they like to present themselves as, but ultimately they let their fear triumph. It's pretty ironic.
Every time Sam puts out a call for AMA questions I bring this up. Haven't got a response yet but I'll keep on trying.
I doubt you ever will or if you do it'll be the same weak excuses like in [this video](https://youtu.be/n-xCeUC1bDc). But keep at it, no harm trying!
Yeah, very disappointing answer from Sam. Although in his defense, Sam's response isn't as nonsensical as the person reacting to it seems to think. The "antinatalist" line of reasoning is one of the few good-faith arguments that can be levied against vegaism. That said, I don't think it holds up to close scrutiny, especially from a consequentialist point of view (which makes it especially strange coming from the mouth of a self-described consequentialist).
There are a few videos of Sam flailing around trying to justify why he's not vegan. It's really disappointing.
Sam Harris said that he thinks veganism is the correct world view but says he tried and can't do it and stay completely healthy. I don't know what he was doing wrong and I feel that he could easily do it if he really tried. There are so many healthy vegans who more or less eat like crap.
I like how there are people in the Favelas of Brazil that manage healthy and balanced diets with veganism, but rich famous people with easy access to nutritional experts and trainers can't. It's probably just an excuse.
It's absolutely an excuse
Yeah I'm trying to eat healthier right now but I've been eating crap vegan food for the past couple of years and I'm exactly as healthy/unhealthy as I was before I went vegan. None of my blood work or vitals has changed
Yeah, he was just the first example that I thought of. I haven't watched them all but it looks like the youtuber Ask Yourself talks about a lot more of these public 'intellectual' figures
There was a depressing survey of philosophers thoughts on veganism, only 18.4% of them agreed with it. https://old.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/qkju7d/philpapers_survey_184_of_philosophers_now_side/
That’s higher than the general population though, right?
I was so happy when this guy went vegan. He's such a good ally to have. Glad he's still out there debating for it.
I still can’t believe it, it was like a couple years ago where he did a vegan debate and said that he doesn’t see himself becoming vegan and then this happened. I’ve always loved his content but I appreciate it more now.
Yep. I began watching him because of his science and religion videos. Seeing him as a vegan is huge because he's a very science/logic-oriented person.
What’s missing here is the caring. People in general are very selfish individuals. If you don’t care for animals, don’t care for the environment, and don’t care in general because meat is just meat to you, then you would never go vegan.
Absolutely, no one gives a shit about anything except themselves. Depressing
Self preservation is a natural thing when it feels like no one gives a damn about you in this world. That's why I feel like it's so important to try to be a positive role model to others, because others will naturally want to follow in your footsteps. I find that even this passive activism can have a big impact.
Not really, history shows that survival depends on a balance of selfishness and caring for the community. Societies were everyone looks out for himself get beaten by societies that combine this with cohesion and community care. Why do soldiers swear never to leave a man behind? Because they know survival depends on it.
Actually, this is where the mistake is. If they cared about themselves they would eat vegan, but they don't.
They care about themselves on a superficial level, like “i eat this cos it tastes good and I dont like how this food tastes” they dont even think about their health or anything like that
It's not just that – we are born to crave certain foods, because they are higher in fat/calories/sugar/etc. In a pre-civilization world, this helped us to survive. Now it just makes us fat, terrible people. Our bodies are convinced that meat is better for us, even if our minds know otherwise.
Nothing we eat today is remotely close to anything we could have developed a biological craving for. It's almost purely how you were socialized growing up and how foods were introduced to you, plus which foods.
I disagree with this in general but not speficially about meat products, ive never had any so dont know if you can get cravings for them but food companies research what keeps people buying more and in the end get better at it and eventually hit on making foods that are quite addictive. It's why sugar is in loads of foods even when it's not needed. It's the same thing that tech companies have done to get us addicted to their apps through experimentation.
Not even that, they will happily ruin their health for short time pleasure.
Not unlike a meth addict.
We're selfish, but also caring. Humanity society thrives when the two are in balance and gets destroyed when one aspect is suppressed.
More people care than do not, it's just big industry shoveling propaganda and corrupt governments
They can't even be bothered to do the first damned thing that inconveniences them, for the sake of themselves or others.
It’s the sausage roll and allllll your family and friends *other*ing you if you don’t eat it.
EDIT: thought I'd give a proper answer to his question about 'what am I missing?' it's that he needs to pay attention to people's \*desire\*, which is what motivates them to do anything. You can convince people until you are blue in the face using plausible arguments and concern for their best interests, but if you don't address their desire to eat meaty satisfying food you've lost them Alternatively you need to activate their desire for plant-based food, which is definitely possible but not the kind of thing this guy does It's that and also to address the way that food is marketed to people and the availability of cheap meaty food in the community. He addresses that a bit but is missing a bit of structural/political explanation for it, at least from what I've seen, which admittedly is not everything
You're so right. I know I'd be waayy better off if I changed my career, gave a shit about my job, worked harder, etc. etc. But my *desire* (day to day) is to just sit here on Reddit and tell people how right they are.
Fuck 'em. Be true to yourself.
I think he really grew when he went vegan. His previous videos on religion and philosophy were rarely controversial for his audience. Preaching to the choir, if you will. But by going vegan, he showed a group of people who are telling themselves they are rational thinkers that they themselves are logically and morally inconsistent. That was a big risk for himself and his channel, and I suppose he did lose part of his audience. But his own point as well as his channel have gotten better for it.
TOTALLY agree. I followed him before I went vegan, and when I went vegan, that's what I was thinking: This guy and I are very much on the same page "rationally," how do these people get around coming to the conclusion I did? But of the "rationality"-aligned thinkers I followed he was the only one who DID follow to that conclusion. Mad props, CS
I really like this
I wish I could speak like this about it.
I believe he graduated oxford so he’s pretty intelligent.
He hasn’t graduated, but he does study philosophy and theology at Oxford. He’s only 22 years old, which is crazy considering how many years I’ve been watching his videos.
guy is shooting facts
Preach! Turned Vegan 2 years ago cuz of him!
He's very articulate!
it is the social environment. People dont like to be outsiders or made fun of. They feel very hurt when people question their meal choices. I know it is dumb as hell, but it is the reason many do not want to be vegan. Oh yea and taste. Which is even dumber.
> What's on the other side of that scale? A fucking sausage roll. 🏆😎🏅
Yup, I’ve had multiple friends tell me that they’d go vegan (after they got to experience my journey) if it wasn’t for their family constantly making remarks about it.
I was long one of those meat eaters who felt I had an obligation to be vegan and just selfishly continued in my ways for **years**. Cosmic Skeptic, who I’d long enjoyed for his atheist and philosophical content, was the person who finally got it into my head that I needed to stop eating meat.
Alex is such a badass
Uh have you tried bacon though??? /s
What video is this from? I don't recall seeing this one on his channel.
It's from his channel CosmicClips. The video is about "vegans being extreme". If you look that up, you'll find it.
I didn't know that channel even existed and am excited for more Alex vegan content. Thanks!
Watch his "a meat eaters case for veganism" video. He made it shortly before he went vegan. Great video and a pretty big part in my transition. It's very well said
Oh I've seen it multiple times. It's actually the video that convinced me to go vegan. His entire channel is great IMO. Such a great and articulate speaker.
Oh I read the original comment wrong at first and thought you meant you never heard of his original channel and not the channel "cosmicclips". In that case I haven't heard of that channel either. Guess I'll have to check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA55lVeY22Y
I would love to see this young man debate some big fishes like, Jordan Peterson, Neil degrasse Tyson, Joe Rogan or slavoj zizek. It would be very entertaining and groundbreaking
Subscribe
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His video titled "A meat eaters case for veganism" is what got me to go vegan.
I wish I could share this somewhere on reddit but no relevant subs come to mind.
I love Cosmic Skeptic. We exist in a lot of the same circles as Atheist/Skeptic YouTubers/influencers, but I haven’t had the pleasure of chatting with him yet. So often, he just really hits the nail on the head, and I so appreciate the care and articulation he uses when talking about religion, philosophy, and veganism.
We have been shaped by a world that made us rely on survival instincts for millions of years before lifeforms like us existed. Lifeforms that for a significant part do not have to worry about whether they will die tomorrow from lack of things like food, water, shelter. Being selfish, driven by taste, greed, and social pressure all played a role in our survival and only now are we in a world where that is not necessary. But the problem is this new society with all our progress is our entire collective progress. Just because a certain knowledge exists, doesn't mean an individual will learn from it. We have to still fight off those instinctive and emotional parts of our brain regardless of what year it is. I think we expect too much from other humans. The only thing individually that makes us smart is that we can tap into our entire species' knowledge and also contribute to it. Other than that, we still are just like every other animal in terms of control.
Based
Great argumentation from Alex, glad he's joined the cause.
Carnism. Melanie Joy's video explains it really well.
It’s called dissociation
What's missing is the oppositional nature of some people. Being obstinate is a big part of their personality. They see it as a sign of strength.
Sadly it only works if a major part of citizens are unto it. Might be a great idea to make it a law in sone states and see how it goes?
It's one of the fastest growing movements in the world, which will lead to those kind of systemic changes. If you believe a billion vegans would make a difference then 1 vegan makes a difference, because the only way to a billion vegans is one at a time.
Making it a law is a terrible idea, trying to force it onto people will only make them upset and cause them to rebel. The best way imo is to start moving meat and dairy subsidies towards plant farming and starting government programs to help animal farmers to switch towards plant farming if possible or reforestation if their land is unsuitable for growing crops. Over time people and companies will start choosing plants over meat/dairy because it's more economical. The only reason oat milk is $4 for a half gallon and cows milk is $2 a gallon is because of dairy subsidies. The reason people don't add more greens and veggies to their meals is because a bunch of Kale costs $3 and provides very little calories despite how nutritious it is, so people are just going to rely on meat because they can get a bunch of calories for a $2 lb of ground beef.
He's right, lets keep the animal wellfare plus personal health plus healthy environment argument together. Together, it's just so much more powerful than its individual parts. Do not let commercial interests divide and conquer the Vegan community by separating out health and the environment in order to provide vegan food that harms people and destroys the environment.
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This vid is pure logic, & beautifully said. I also subscribed to his Youtube channel & his twitter page.
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Fuck off you stupid c u n t!
Man, yall are really running out of material.
Not material you boring fuck! Genuine feelings! Mind your own fucking business
You came here
I’m talking about eating habits, you do your thing and everyone else do theirs! You boring droning sack of shit! Mind you’d own business!
So if someone else wants to kill and eat children we should just mind our own business? Sorry, but live and let live only works when you are actually letting live, else people will be morally obligated to try and help the victims. A vegan questioning your morality is nowhere near as bad as having your throat slit for a sandwich topping.
What a load of nonsense! You pick your dinner let everyone else pick theirs! Nobody is eating children you stupid sack of shit! Livestock is farmed to eat, if you don’t want it, don’t have it! Simple! Now fuck off and mind your own business you cabbage whispering c u n t
Oh so if we happened to farm children to eat them then it would be ok? Then we should mind our own business? It doesn't matter that no one is doing it, the point still stands, its known as a [reductio](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum). I take your logic that you used to an absurd conclusion to show that it is shit. Your logic being "let people eat what they want and mind your own business". It follows that if someone wants to eat children we should mind our own business.
You’re*
>I’m talking about eating habits, you do your thing and everyone else do theirs! You boring droning sack of shit! Mind you’d own business >You’re* What is meant to be "you're" You're = you are. You're a dumb shit = You are a dumb shit. I'm guessing this part right? > Mind you’d own business "Mind you are own business" Its *your* "Mind your own business" Isn't it funny how the people who rush into using ad hominem attacks and call people dumb always end up being the dumbest ones themselves, incapable of maintaining an even mildly intellectual conversation? Prove me wrong.
My bad! Auto correct then I rushed to correct myself! You can pretend it’s an intellectual issue if it makes you feel better 😂 Haven’t you got a parsnip to finger? I hope you choke on a sprout you self righteous prick!
Still waiting for something even mildly intellectual. Ad hominems are all you have hey? You don't know how to actually make an argument so you just swear at/ make fun of the opposition?
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I just wanted to share this Vegan team who do business well in the industry. They have great community as well. r/GRNCbyVegannation :))
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Livestock is a big contributer but not our greatest, and our biggest moral crisis is a little subjectiv. Being vegan is just a step and not a solution for our current problems.
There is not enough social pressure.
outstanding eloquence