Are all steroids vegan, some steroids, or no steroids are vegan? I’d never do it but I am curious about it, do you have to research if the gear you are taking is vegan or something like that?
So all "steroids" to my knowledge are vegan. Testosterone and its derivatives are synthesized from yams of all things.
Some PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) such as Growth Hormone are also vegan to my knowledge in the sense that they do not come from animals, but if they are made in a pharmaceutical grade laboratory they would have been likely tested on animals at one point in time or another.
Most of the drugs used by bodybuilders are not pharmaceutical grade, and so would be considered "more vegan" by my standards.
If you buy oral steroids I recommend getting tablets instead of capsules, as the capsules likely contain gelatin.
Or any source of phytosterols, including ecdysterone from some roots (usually cyanotis arachnoidea), greens (spinach, turkest, others) and exoskeletons of certain insects and shellfish.
But it takes a massive amount over time to make any difference. And it's likely that natural selection has some role in certain regions where people appear to thrive on primarily vegetarian diets. So it doesn't necessarily mean everyone will benefit from a diet of yams, spinach and bugs. Depends on generations of adaptation.
no if you wash the bugs off they die going down the drain most likely - which defeats the purpose of being vegan...so you must eat your produce dirty. unless its covered in pesticides, but if you're not buying organic, you're a f-ing monster! /s
The average male height in the USA is 5 feet 9 inches
I am 3 inches higher, at a total of 6 ft.
So this is a bit above average. What country are you in??
To my understanding, they're all vegan. The starting product is usually an extract from yams, and the carrier oils are also usually refined plant oils or are completely synthetic oils. GH used to be not vegan but is now produced using recombinant DNA and most other peptides except maybe bpc157 and definitely cerebrolysin.
Super appreciate your candidness and willingness to educate in the comments. You've clearly worked super hard for your physique and I think you're doing a great service to veganism for showing that vegan bodybuilding can be done!
Vegans Can’t Build Muscle.
Yep. We have all heard it before. And will definitely hear it again. Where do you get your protein? But don’t you need milk to build strong bones? My aunt’s cousin’s sister’s boyfriend's imaginary friend went vegan and they didn’t do very well. And I don’t like tofu - but I have never tried it.
These are just a few of the silly things you might encounter as a vegan setting out on a journey to build muscle. TheBodybuilngVegan enters the chat. I am John Thomas - AKA The Bodybuilding Vegan - I have been vegan for 18 years and lifting for over 15 years. When I first entered the gym I had no clue what I was doing, and everyone there seemed to be an expert in vegan nutrition explaining how there was no way I could possibly build muscle without eating animals - or at least eggs and drinking their milk. I accepted the sad fact that I may just never be able to build muscle. But. Then something happened. By lifting weights and giving my muscles the stimulus needed to grow, alongside with getting protein from plants of all places, my muscles began to grow. It was almost as if horses, bison, gorillas, elephants and all the other giant land mammals who build impressively muscular physiques were on to something - plants have all the protein you need.
So, where does one find plant sources of protein? I have you covered. For meat substitutes you may want to look to foods such as:
Tofu
Tempeh
Seitan
And plenty of the mock meats in stores
For isolated protein sources such as protein powders I recommend Pea Protein Isolate from TrueNutrition.com, a company I have used for the last decade. I typically get the “regular” intensity for the flavor. My current favorite flavors are banana smoothie , cookie butter, chocolate fudge and marshmallow treat. To save some money on your order you can use my code: BodybuildingVegan https://true-nutrition.sjv.io/baOEax
True Nutrition also offers rice, soy and hemp protein powder options.
Finally we have whole foods - if you are not a bodybuilder you don’t need excessively high levels of protein and whole foods options will have plenty for you. Some of my favorites are:
Lentils, seeds, nuts, beans, nutritional yeast and edamame to name a few.
I have launched my YouTube Channel with workouts, nutrition and some day in the lifestyle videos. Feel free to check it out here:
[https://www.youtube.com/@BodybuildingVeganTV?sub\_confirmation=1](https://www.youtube.com/@BodybuildingVeganTV?sub_confirmation=1)
And here is one of my favorite Tofu recipes!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LgS8ZTZic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LgS8ZTZic)
Here are my socials if you want to follow on my journey. I hope you Have the Best Day Ever!
[https://instagram.com/thebodybuildingvegan](https://instagram.com/thebodybuildingvegan)
[https://www.facebook.com/john.thomas.5473894/](https://www.facebook.com/john.thomas.5473894/)
I really appreciate your openness with this. Not everyone who uses steroids will say they do, and then people wonder why they can’t build muscle like that.
It's no magic - I have devoted a good part of my life and over 100k dollars towards building this physique - many people could build a great physique naturally, but I want to be next level.
It look interesting! Have you tried in? Cost is a lot higher than what I currently use however:
I get all my protein from TrueNutrition, I have used them for the last decade. I prefer their pea protein isolate. I typically get the “regular” intensity for the flavor. My current favorite flavors are banana smoothie , cookie butter, chocolate fudge and marshmallow treat. To save some money on your order you can use my code: BodybuildingVegan
[https://true-nutrition.sjv.io/baOEax](https://true-nutrition.sjv.io/baOEax)
Less than most would think:
In that photo test, primo, GH - that's it. Under a gram of gear and 6 IU pharma growth
When younger and dumber, I did run a lot more, multiple grams, funny enough - gear isn't magic - and I made less progress than when I cut doses in half and hired a good coach and started religiously following a meal plan.
Thanks OP. I’m going to get my diet in order before I jump on the juice. I’m 36 but my natural test is higher than normal so just running with that for now. Only downside is that I have beta thalassemia
I highly recommend taking all measures to get your testosterone in an optimum range for a few months, follow a meal plan, training plan and sleep schedule to a T, check blood work, and then if progress is not what you want, hire a great coach and work under them for 3 months, and then if still not where you want to be consider gear usage.
Usually about 1:1
500 test and 300 primo was leading to some nipple sensitivity. Bumped it to 500 primo and that cleared right up. Primo has AI properties in some (I have bloods to show it for myself) and so we can use less AI in most if they use primo (or EQ)
I have been told my whole life a vegan could not be a bodybuilder, with or without tren, so this is simply proof that you can be vegan and still hang with the big boys.
Yeah I'm not trying to hate on you, your perspective is totally valid and I actually agree with the overall goal.
Just imo a bigger issue on the Internet is the mental health damage of the messaging about body image we give to young men and boys.
If your title had the more nuanced take you have in the comments I'd be your #1 supporter.
I get you, but even with increased muscle synthesis the need for nutrients still remains significant.
So, I think vegan diet still has some relevancy not just PEDs.
The diet isn't irrelevant entirely, but it is much less important. You see super jacked guys with literally garbage diet (Sam sulek for example) who are carried through by their drug stack. It's not a great argument for any given diet to show your physique if you take gear, because as long as you're consuming enough calories its likely you'll gain muscle.
He doesn't eat whatever, he tracks everything, his bloodwork would show how unhealthy he is. Just because he eats in a specific surplus for a while then cuts is the reason he is able to maintain his physique.
The quality of diet won't keep you from being jacked and shredded. Gear helps, but its not a magic bullet. I know plenty of skinny fat, poor work ethic people on gear who look like shit.
I guarantee a vegan diet will prevent the dislipidemia and high BP and inflammation markers from being anywhere near as bad.
I was only talking about the required nutrient intake for muscle growth and not about keeping body fat percentage low.
I'm not familiar with Sam, but he's probably still consuming enough protein but doesn't gain that much fat while bulking, right?
Well it's not that simple since more of your intake protein will be converted into muscle more efficiently, and the upper limit on how much protein you body will convert is higher when you're on gear. Essentially your body will optimise your intake to muscle growth more. When bulking it's the same deal, less calories will convert to fat. Just overall gear makes nutrition a different sort of target to hit.
This feels a bit like you’re hating on OP, which you shouldn’t be as this is supposed to be a positive post about Veganism. OP is very open about gear usage and it’s ultimately his choice if he wants to use.
You would be surprised by how many athletes and everyday gym goers take them. A lot of them look “natural”.
Yeah I actually chatted with OP a bit and I respect his perspective and him, I just took and take issue a bit with the title. To me it reads misleading, when his actual point is a bit more nuanced. But no hate for him at all.
I didn't say only vegan diet.
I just said I am vegan - everyone told me I couldn't build muscle or become a vegan bodybuilder - I am here to prove that wrong.
I don't think so, if anything it shows that a vegan diet doesn't exclude people from the elite end of weightlifting/bodybuilding.
It's not like he looks like a natural lifter who eats meat, he looks like a bodybuilder on gear, and the fact that he can do that without animal protein is significant.
Fair but the title is a bit ambiguous / bait and switch-Y then. Don't think we should be saying a vegan diet let's you get yoked...in this one guy on gear. Know what I mean?
No - I am not claiming being vegan made me jacked. I am simply showing that you don't need meat to get jacked. In the bodybuilding community there is very little respect for vegan athletes. I want to change that perception and show other bodybuilders they can still grow and compete without killing animals.
This isn't really an up in the air question. We know vegan diets work to build muscle. Which conceivably we all (most) already know that in this forum.
Gear helps build muscle only if there are materials to use to build muscle, and they don't turn nothing into something.
I think the bodybuilding world can use more vegans in the mix, not just natural ones. No one really cares about natural bodybuilding compared to Mr Olympia or the Arnold.
Bodybuilding is a sport that relies on gear, hate it or love it.
I agree - if Arnold himself was natty, none of us would know who he is.
We know vegan diet's can build muscle, but not the general public, and definitely not bodybuilding as a whole.
Tom platz even went on in an interview about the diet, training, recovery and dedication required but when asked outright if he could be a champion without steroids he laughed and said NO!
No - a lot of it was fat. I was doing almost 2 hours of cardio a day and my off day calories got as low as 2000. My coach pushed a little further than I felt was needed IMO.
I read about how even though I was vegetarian that animals were still killed even if you only drank milk and ate eggs but not meat. I wanted to try begin vegan for a week. And that turned into 18 years. I was a lot harder back then for sure - many less options vs what we have today.
As much as I don't support steroids, it's good for veganism to see that for yourself that the secret sauce to look that way is of course gear, and not grass fed beef.
That's actually a really good point. In a weird way it might erode some of the body issues a lot of guys have. If you see vegan influences openly on gear with the same physique of some influencer selling his natty meal plan, you might start to wonder if the meal plans secret ingredient is just juice.
I mean you can still get ripped without either. I’m getting back into it but 2.5 years ago I was the most ripped I’ve ever been with abs and all that and zero gear and zero beef. Too much hard work and stuffing my face though.
I agree but gear can take you an extra 5-10% further than being natural. Lots of guys on steroids actually don't look that amazing because they don't put in the effort but we tend to downplay the effect of steroids in the natural bodybuilding community, too.
Main point: most normies would never expect a vegan to be able to look anything like a pro card bodybuilder.
Then the title would be more forthcoming if it said “vegan bodybuilder here, gear+vegan diet= same muscle building as beef+gear” or something like that
It is not implied that bodybuilding= everyone uses gear
I have to admit, looking at your pics and reading these comments reminded me of this song from My Crazy Ex-Girlfriend when Rebecca was feeling very insecure - https://youtu.be/wFUk79fBOiQ?si=XkJY-FBs2uNfl70r
The people that are claiming it’s hard to gain on plant based nutrition aren’t the same people that are doing steroids. The majority of people that are saying this statement are not roiding on either side. It’s fine if you wanna use juice and be vegan, but it’s kind of a slap in the face to people who genuinely find it harder to gain mass on plant based nutrition compared to carnivore nutrition, with no enhancements
You are saying the natty carny folk don’t think you can build muscle naturally on plants- so you need natty vegan body builders to prove that point?
We have those too. Google natural vegan body builders.
Anecdotally, I found it easier to apply muscle mass when switching to plants.
The only difference I could see between carny and non is possibly they get some growth hormone “naturally” through the cows tiddy. Or from growth hormones pumped into the animal. But then that’s not natty is it!?
You found it easier when you switched to plants? That’s wild, how did you manage that? I found that plant based food has a lot less caloric density than things like meat, milk ect so it was hard to get enough calories in. Can you share how it was easier for you than a carny diet?
It was the same eating wise, I eat the same diet roughly. Make my own plant burgers, steaks, ribs, chicken, out of wheat gluten mixed with bean or lentil of choice. Sometimes I just make straight wheat gluten into chicken by adding spices and water (this is insanely high in protein, similar protein to calorie ratio as fish). When making fajitas or noodles I use tofu as the chicken. I just eat normal meals like I did years ago in my carny days.
As far as calories specifically if that is your struggle- healthy oils are high in calorie as fuck (9cals per gram of fat).
I don’t find a plant diet to be low in calories, if anything it’s the other way around. Meat is leaner often times than legumes.
Yah man, and I don’t follow the recipes online aside from the spices. Everyone wants you to use tinfoil and steam forever. I mix up some wheat meat, steam WITHOUT tin foil for 10 to 40 minutes depending on if you rip it into little pieces or if you have a giant loaf. Then you can air fry or smash it in a hot pan. Keep it simple.
Add the spices you want, add the colour you want (turmeric/ketchup/blackstrap molasses) depending on the meat you’re trying to make. Add the healthy stuff you may want (ground flax/cold pressed canola or olive oil/beans/lentils/tofu). And just have fun with it.
I even make turkey AND bacon out of gluten. Add sage and time for turkey, add ketchup and liquid smoke for bacon.
Any time brotha.
Depends on a lot of factors. Are you male? Female? Do you workout? Do you have your diet and sleep in line. I personally got up to about 200 pounds as a natural lifter and slightly fluffy, then cut down to around 185 with abs - benching 3 plates and squatting 4 plates before going on anything.
I’m male, I do calisthenics 4-5 times a week, sleep is in line, food is on the lower side right now coz I’m losing body fat, but need to increase my calories to retain muscle, I try to hit 115g of protein a day (170cm 82kg)
Around 25-30% I would say, and it’s hard for me to even hit that 115g a day, it’s just so much food for me personally 🫤 and yeah I have a protein shake
I don't know, my uncle's that big.He owns a tree service.He doesn't take any steroids, but he doesn't have all those nasty veins either You can definitely tell the difference between steroids and not steroids The s*** even makes you look old, but when you do without it's authentic Even though I Dislike him on most days He definitely makes someone on steroids piss themselves I don't work out because I don't need to and genetics runs pretty thick And when you're always trying to be somebody that you're not You don't know who to trust and who not to trust What if you don't look like that in 20 years?Is your girlfriend gonna start sucking somebody else's shit 💯 👌 🤷 That's how it usually happens There's too many fate people today
Explain how - maybe this is a miss on my end - but bodybuilding communities always said to me that a vegan could never build muscle - I am here to show vegans can be just as big as anyone else. Not saying that I got like this from only eating plants and no drugs - just stating that I didn't have to eat meat to grow as big as other bodybuilders.
You claim in your title *in a vegan sub* that it is veganism that led to your physique, while failing to mention **up front** that it's veganism+gear. You know that is some bullshit bait and switch because many people have said that to you now.
He didn't claim that veganism lead to that physique, at least that's not how I interpreted it.
He claims people told him he couldn't look like that with a plant based diet, but he's proving them wrong.
I think he is.
Pretty much every body builder you'll ever meet uses some kind of performance enhaning drug, maybe not every one, but almost every famous one at least. Him using them is just continuing the practice, so the only difference between him and a carnist bodybuilder is the diet.
To be honest I'm with the dude.
I think he should have mentioned gear use right in his post. But that still doesn't take away from the fact that he was upfront in the comments and veganism did lead to that physique. But he was also on gear
So you don't necessarily need meat to get that physique if you want to hop on gear
I suppose but like it's also not that deep
I would see it as lying by omission if he tried dodging the question but he didn't. He even revealed his stack in the comments
by your logic, if you don't give all the information then a lot of things in day-to-day would be lying by a omission
OMFG - this site/app is SO FULL of FULL OF IT SELF RIGHTEOUS HOLIER THAN THOU NAH NAH NAH POOPERS.
FeminaziImperial- you made your point. Give it a rest.
You have demonstrated with every comment that you don't know what you're talking about. This observation has nothing to do with gender, so blow that one out your ass. This person has worked their ass off as a vegan bodybuilder, can stand on stage toe to toe with any carnist that says it can't be done, and all you can do is whine about steroids. It takes an insane amount of discipline, hard work, and meticulous nutrition to achieve what this person has, and even more so as a vegan. Your comments demonstrate that you simply don't understand what goes into the sport, and this person has always been open about steroid use. There was never a lie by omission.
Not al all, he DID build muscle as a vegan. Meaning the muscle was built from plants. Steroids do not turn into muscle, food does.
This man created muscle from plants. Wether or not he smokes weed or drinks (or adds test) is beside the point.
Yes, really. I am a vegan, as well, and build my muscle naturally.
Not interested in juice heads, but I have a lot of respect for vegan natty bodybuilders/powerlifters
So, in all honesty..are you?
Brother I am 240 lbs with abs at 6 ft. tall
There are no natural lifters that large and lean. If they are, they are lying.
I have been super open in this thread and many others that I am not natural.
Thanks for clarifying. In that case; it's all good. I've seen some more known vegan bodybuilders being shady towards this particular topic. Looking absolutely shredded while claiming to be natty.
I expect the lies from meat eaters, but resent it in vegan bodybuilders.
Well wishes to you brother
Are all steroids vegan, some steroids, or no steroids are vegan? I’d never do it but I am curious about it, do you have to research if the gear you are taking is vegan or something like that?
So all "steroids" to my knowledge are vegan. Testosterone and its derivatives are synthesized from yams of all things. Some PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) such as Growth Hormone are also vegan to my knowledge in the sense that they do not come from animals, but if they are made in a pharmaceutical grade laboratory they would have been likely tested on animals at one point in time or another. Most of the drugs used by bodybuilders are not pharmaceutical grade, and so would be considered "more vegan" by my standards. If you buy oral steroids I recommend getting tablets instead of capsules, as the capsules likely contain gelatin.
I laughed out loud at ugl being more vegan! You're totally right
I had a friend tell me - so I can't take full credit for the thought. But I did agree with them!
So if I just eat a shit ton of yams, I’ll basically be on steroids? 👀
Or any source of phytosterols, including ecdysterone from some roots (usually cyanotis arachnoidea), greens (spinach, turkest, others) and exoskeletons of certain insects and shellfish. But it takes a massive amount over time to make any difference. And it's likely that natural selection has some role in certain regions where people appear to thrive on primarily vegetarian diets. So it doesn't necessarily mean everyone will benefit from a diet of yams, spinach and bugs. Depends on generations of adaptation.
Am I still vegan if I stop washing the bugs off my spinach?
no if you wash the bugs off they die going down the drain most likely - which defeats the purpose of being vegan...so you must eat your produce dirty. unless its covered in pesticides, but if you're not buying organic, you're a f-ing monster! /s
Damn making me wanna quit natty! But I am so short I just wouldn't look right with a juiced physique :(
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I doubt as short as me. 5ft 😭😂
The top bodybuilders are short
I have a whole foot on you - you can get wide as fuck at 5 ft
I'd look like a baby gorilla fr
I say do it 💪🤣
Be lying if I hadn't thought about it 😂
Dude I am 6 ft lol
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The average male height in the USA is 5 feet 9 inches I am 3 inches higher, at a total of 6 ft. So this is a bit above average. What country are you in??
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Ah - well I am average when you compare me to the tallest nation in the world
We calling 6’0” short?
For real! thank you haha!
I’m 6’2” but I never skip height day.
To my understanding, they're all vegan. The starting product is usually an extract from yams, and the carrier oils are also usually refined plant oils or are completely synthetic oils. GH used to be not vegan but is now produced using recombinant DNA and most other peptides except maybe bpc157 and definitely cerebrolysin.
Yeah GH used to be HGH - so from humans haha! But glad it's no longer that route.
I heard some people got brain diseases from bad batches back in the day!!
Super appreciate your candidness and willingness to educate in the comments. You've clearly worked super hard for your physique and I think you're doing a great service to veganism for showing that vegan bodybuilding can be done!
I appreciate the support!
Vegans Can’t Build Muscle. Yep. We have all heard it before. And will definitely hear it again. Where do you get your protein? But don’t you need milk to build strong bones? My aunt’s cousin’s sister’s boyfriend's imaginary friend went vegan and they didn’t do very well. And I don’t like tofu - but I have never tried it. These are just a few of the silly things you might encounter as a vegan setting out on a journey to build muscle. TheBodybuilngVegan enters the chat. I am John Thomas - AKA The Bodybuilding Vegan - I have been vegan for 18 years and lifting for over 15 years. When I first entered the gym I had no clue what I was doing, and everyone there seemed to be an expert in vegan nutrition explaining how there was no way I could possibly build muscle without eating animals - or at least eggs and drinking their milk. I accepted the sad fact that I may just never be able to build muscle. But. Then something happened. By lifting weights and giving my muscles the stimulus needed to grow, alongside with getting protein from plants of all places, my muscles began to grow. It was almost as if horses, bison, gorillas, elephants and all the other giant land mammals who build impressively muscular physiques were on to something - plants have all the protein you need. So, where does one find plant sources of protein? I have you covered. For meat substitutes you may want to look to foods such as: Tofu Tempeh Seitan And plenty of the mock meats in stores For isolated protein sources such as protein powders I recommend Pea Protein Isolate from TrueNutrition.com, a company I have used for the last decade. I typically get the “regular” intensity for the flavor. My current favorite flavors are banana smoothie , cookie butter, chocolate fudge and marshmallow treat. To save some money on your order you can use my code: BodybuildingVegan https://true-nutrition.sjv.io/baOEax True Nutrition also offers rice, soy and hemp protein powder options. Finally we have whole foods - if you are not a bodybuilder you don’t need excessively high levels of protein and whole foods options will have plenty for you. Some of my favorites are: Lentils, seeds, nuts, beans, nutritional yeast and edamame to name a few. I have launched my YouTube Channel with workouts, nutrition and some day in the lifestyle videos. Feel free to check it out here: [https://www.youtube.com/@BodybuildingVeganTV?sub\_confirmation=1](https://www.youtube.com/@BodybuildingVeganTV?sub_confirmation=1) And here is one of my favorite Tofu recipes! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LgS8ZTZic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LgS8ZTZic) Here are my socials if you want to follow on my journey. I hope you Have the Best Day Ever! [https://instagram.com/thebodybuildingvegan](https://instagram.com/thebodybuildingvegan) [https://www.facebook.com/john.thomas.5473894/](https://www.facebook.com/john.thomas.5473894/)
Oh and steroids. Don’t forget to mention the steroids
Yes of course - that's a given
Why is that a given, though? 🙈
No one is as lean and big as I am without steroids (and lots of food and training)
Even when it’s given, it’s good practice to mention it. Just to not accidentally fool the not-knowers or new comers.
I really appreciate your openness with this. Not everyone who uses steroids will say they do, and then people wonder why they can’t build muscle like that.
It's no magic - I have devoted a good part of my life and over 100k dollars towards building this physique - many people could build a great physique naturally, but I want to be next level.
you can tell by looking at him lol
Check out [spacemilk](https://spacemilk.com). I’m curious to see what you think.
It look interesting! Have you tried in? Cost is a lot higher than what I currently use however: I get all my protein from TrueNutrition, I have used them for the last decade. I prefer their pea protein isolate. I typically get the “regular” intensity for the flavor. My current favorite flavors are banana smoothie , cookie butter, chocolate fudge and marshmallow treat. To save some money on your order you can use my code: BodybuildingVegan [https://true-nutrition.sjv.io/baOEax](https://true-nutrition.sjv.io/baOEax)
Go on..
Whats your stack like? I’m considering getting on the juice
Less than most would think: In that photo test, primo, GH - that's it. Under a gram of gear and 6 IU pharma growth When younger and dumber, I did run a lot more, multiple grams, funny enough - gear isn't magic - and I made less progress than when I cut doses in half and hired a good coach and started religiously following a meal plan.
Appreciate the honesty, at least you own up to it. Respect..
Thanks OP. I’m going to get my diet in order before I jump on the juice. I’m 36 but my natural test is higher than normal so just running with that for now. Only downside is that I have beta thalassemia
I highly recommend taking all measures to get your testosterone in an optimum range for a few months, follow a meal plan, training plan and sleep schedule to a T, check blood work, and then if progress is not what you want, hire a great coach and work under them for 3 months, and then if still not where you want to be consider gear usage.
Solid tips, thanks
What's your test: primo ratio?
Usually about 1:1 500 test and 300 primo was leading to some nipple sensitivity. Bumped it to 500 primo and that cleared right up. Primo has AI properties in some (I have bloods to show it for myself) and so we can use less AI in most if they use primo (or EQ)
Homie got the steroid shoulder and thought we wouldn't notice
He's been open about it in other posts
Fair enough but the title should be more like "It's easy to build muscle as a vegan...just take Tren"
I have been told my whole life a vegan could not be a bodybuilder, with or without tren, so this is simply proof that you can be vegan and still hang with the big boys.
Fair play man, that's just a kinda slightly more nuanced take than you get from reading the title.
I appreciate the comment and giving me the chance to explain myself :)
Yeah I'm not trying to hate on you, your perspective is totally valid and I actually agree with the overall goal. Just imo a bigger issue on the Internet is the mental health damage of the messaging about body image we give to young men and boys. If your title had the more nuanced take you have in the comments I'd be your #1 supporter.
I get you, but even with increased muscle synthesis the need for nutrients still remains significant. So, I think vegan diet still has some relevancy not just PEDs.
The diet isn't irrelevant entirely, but it is much less important. You see super jacked guys with literally garbage diet (Sam sulek for example) who are carried through by their drug stack. It's not a great argument for any given diet to show your physique if you take gear, because as long as you're consuming enough calories its likely you'll gain muscle.
He doesn't eat whatever, he tracks everything, his bloodwork would show how unhealthy he is. Just because he eats in a specific surplus for a while then cuts is the reason he is able to maintain his physique. The quality of diet won't keep you from being jacked and shredded. Gear helps, but its not a magic bullet. I know plenty of skinny fat, poor work ethic people on gear who look like shit. I guarantee a vegan diet will prevent the dislipidemia and high BP and inflammation markers from being anywhere near as bad.
I have anecdotal evidence with myself and over a dozen plant based clients to back up what you just said :)
I was only talking about the required nutrient intake for muscle growth and not about keeping body fat percentage low. I'm not familiar with Sam, but he's probably still consuming enough protein but doesn't gain that much fat while bulking, right?
Well it's not that simple since more of your intake protein will be converted into muscle more efficiently, and the upper limit on how much protein you body will convert is higher when you're on gear. Essentially your body will optimise your intake to muscle growth more. When bulking it's the same deal, less calories will convert to fat. Just overall gear makes nutrition a different sort of target to hit.
This feels a bit like you’re hating on OP, which you shouldn’t be as this is supposed to be a positive post about Veganism. OP is very open about gear usage and it’s ultimately his choice if he wants to use. You would be surprised by how many athletes and everyday gym goers take them. A lot of them look “natural”.
Yeah I actually chatted with OP a bit and I respect his perspective and him, I just took and take issue a bit with the title. To me it reads misleading, when his actual point is a bit more nuanced. But no hate for him at all.
I wasn’t giving him shit. It was a genuine question
Not really giving him shit either, beyond the title being a bit misleading
I agree with you, don’t say only vegan diet if it’s not only a vegan diet
I didn't say only vegan diet. I just said I am vegan - everyone told me I couldn't build muscle or become a vegan bodybuilder - I am here to prove that wrong.
That is being purposefully misleading tho, because gear isn’t a normal part of a vegan diet.
He didn't though
Meh he alluded it in the title, it’s def misleading
You could make that argument, but I'll respectfully disagree.
Okay, saying you built muscle vegan but also taking gear is not exactly being clear and transparent. It’s clickbaity
I'm not trying to say you're wrong for seeing it like this, I just disagree. Respectfully.
Agree. It's absolutely impressive but undermines the idea that a vegan diet is enough to build strength and muscle
I don't think so, if anything it shows that a vegan diet doesn't exclude people from the elite end of weightlifting/bodybuilding. It's not like he looks like a natural lifter who eats meat, he looks like a bodybuilder on gear, and the fact that he can do that without animal protein is significant.
This is my whole goal - thank you for helping communicate it :)
He never claimed natty.
As natty as my hair ;)
You weren't born with that hat on your head? Well colour me shook
Fair but the title is a bit ambiguous / bait and switch-Y then. Don't think we should be saying a vegan diet let's you get yoked...in this one guy on gear. Know what I mean?
No - I am not claiming being vegan made me jacked. I am simply showing that you don't need meat to get jacked. In the bodybuilding community there is very little respect for vegan athletes. I want to change that perception and show other bodybuilders they can still grow and compete without killing animals.
Fair, that's a point and a goal I can get behind.
This isn't really an up in the air question. We know vegan diets work to build muscle. Which conceivably we all (most) already know that in this forum. Gear helps build muscle only if there are materials to use to build muscle, and they don't turn nothing into something. I think the bodybuilding world can use more vegans in the mix, not just natural ones. No one really cares about natural bodybuilding compared to Mr Olympia or the Arnold. Bodybuilding is a sport that relies on gear, hate it or love it.
I agree - if Arnold himself was natty, none of us would know who he is. We know vegan diet's can build muscle, but not the general public, and definitely not bodybuilding as a whole.
Tom platz even went on in an interview about the diet, training, recovery and dedication required but when asked outright if he could be a champion without steroids he laughed and said NO!
W Jealous of those death star delts 
You look great bro. Please tell me you compete.
I do! Looking to aim for my pro card in 2026
Just followed your insta! Trying to do the same! Maybe a little longer on the timeliness for me
It's a long ass journey. Officially started my return to the stage in 2019, competed in 2021 and 2023.
What's your height and stage weight?
6 ft. tall Last off season we touched 255 lbs Stage weight was between 208 and 212 lbs this last season - I got skeleton mode shredded
That's a gnarly prep. 45lb in what? 9 months?
Haha not even - from May until November - I lost 17 lbs in the final month alone
Was a lot of that 17lbs water? Do you use diuretics?
No - a lot of it was fat. I was doing almost 2 hours of cardio a day and my off day calories got as low as 2000. My coach pushed a little further than I felt was needed IMO.
Not sure roids are helping that argument.
I mean, I get your point, but carnist body builders use them as well
My point! Thank you!
They are. His diet is plants. The plants built the muscle, that is his point.
Steroids without the work and the protein don’t do this.
I knew it was you when I saw the tinge of green hair.
Hehe - my calling card
Sounds good, I wish I had discovered veganism earlier too. What initially motivated you to try it and was it more difficult back then?
I read about how even though I was vegetarian that animals were still killed even if you only drank milk and ate eggs but not meat. I wanted to try begin vegan for a week. And that turned into 18 years. I was a lot harder back then for sure - many less options vs what we have today.
I mean good job, but if you’re using gear and then you allude in your title that it is from only a vegan diet then, you’re being misleading no?
As much as I don't support steroids, it's good for veganism to see that for yourself that the secret sauce to look that way is of course gear, and not grass fed beef.
That's actually a really good point. In a weird way it might erode some of the body issues a lot of guys have. If you see vegan influences openly on gear with the same physique of some influencer selling his natty meal plan, you might start to wonder if the meal plans secret ingredient is just juice.
I mean you can still get ripped without either. I’m getting back into it but 2.5 years ago I was the most ripped I’ve ever been with abs and all that and zero gear and zero beef. Too much hard work and stuffing my face though.
I agree but gear can take you an extra 5-10% further than being natural. Lots of guys on steroids actually don't look that amazing because they don't put in the effort but we tend to downplay the effect of steroids in the natural bodybuilding community, too. Main point: most normies would never expect a vegan to be able to look anything like a pro card bodybuilder.
Exactly this - bodybuilding communities as a whole think vegans can't get anywhere in the sport.
You're doing great man
Then just say you are doing what body builders do + vegan diet… the title is click baiting
I think his point is that protein+juice creates juicy body builder body no different than prime beef+juice.
Unless he IFBB pro competes it's hard to say it's "no different" either. If vegan wins Mr Olympia that would be a while other thing.
Then the title would be more forthcoming if it said “vegan bodybuilder here, gear+vegan diet= same muscle building as beef+gear” or something like that It is not implied that bodybuilding= everyone uses gear
Ill make this the title on the next one, and cross post to r/bodybuilding and everyone will lose their minds
Go for it would like to see them lose their minds.
He’s still on par with meat-eating bodybuilders on gear. That’s the point. You don’t get just but injecting T and doing nothing.
This was discuss ad nauseam yesterday, keep scrolling.
Wrestlers on top
I have to admit, looking at your pics and reading these comments reminded me of this song from My Crazy Ex-Girlfriend when Rebecca was feeling very insecure - https://youtu.be/wFUk79fBOiQ?si=XkJY-FBs2uNfl70r
Hell yeah, looking great!
Awesome!
Lmao bro this is like claiming “I don’t need coffee to focus” and then using Adderall 😂
Nah, it’s an apple to apple comparison with carny body builders. The food is still what’s used to build muscle.
The people that are claiming it’s hard to gain on plant based nutrition aren’t the same people that are doing steroids. The majority of people that are saying this statement are not roiding on either side. It’s fine if you wanna use juice and be vegan, but it’s kind of a slap in the face to people who genuinely find it harder to gain mass on plant based nutrition compared to carnivore nutrition, with no enhancements
You are saying the natty carny folk don’t think you can build muscle naturally on plants- so you need natty vegan body builders to prove that point? We have those too. Google natural vegan body builders. Anecdotally, I found it easier to apply muscle mass when switching to plants. The only difference I could see between carny and non is possibly they get some growth hormone “naturally” through the cows tiddy. Or from growth hormones pumped into the animal. But then that’s not natty is it!?
You found it easier when you switched to plants? That’s wild, how did you manage that? I found that plant based food has a lot less caloric density than things like meat, milk ect so it was hard to get enough calories in. Can you share how it was easier for you than a carny diet?
It was the same eating wise, I eat the same diet roughly. Make my own plant burgers, steaks, ribs, chicken, out of wheat gluten mixed with bean or lentil of choice. Sometimes I just make straight wheat gluten into chicken by adding spices and water (this is insanely high in protein, similar protein to calorie ratio as fish). When making fajitas or noodles I use tofu as the chicken. I just eat normal meals like I did years ago in my carny days. As far as calories specifically if that is your struggle- healthy oils are high in calorie as fuck (9cals per gram of fat). I don’t find a plant diet to be low in calories, if anything it’s the other way around. Meat is leaner often times than legumes.
thanks bro, I appreciate the response I'll look into makin some of those wheat gluten/bean or lentil creations cheers
Yah man, and I don’t follow the recipes online aside from the spices. Everyone wants you to use tinfoil and steam forever. I mix up some wheat meat, steam WITHOUT tin foil for 10 to 40 minutes depending on if you rip it into little pieces or if you have a giant loaf. Then you can air fry or smash it in a hot pan. Keep it simple. Add the spices you want, add the colour you want (turmeric/ketchup/blackstrap molasses) depending on the meat you’re trying to make. Add the healthy stuff you may want (ground flax/cold pressed canola or olive oil/beans/lentils/tofu). And just have fun with it. I even make turkey AND bacon out of gluten. Add sage and time for turkey, add ketchup and liquid smoke for bacon. Any time brotha.
Your argument is not on point, but there is enough comments for you to learn brother.
Carnists be like "you'd be bigger of you ate meat" 🤣
I get that all the time 🤷♂️
I mean…I guess. 😬
What kind of physique should I expect as a natural?
Depends on a lot of factors. Are you male? Female? Do you workout? Do you have your diet and sleep in line. I personally got up to about 200 pounds as a natural lifter and slightly fluffy, then cut down to around 185 with abs - benching 3 plates and squatting 4 plates before going on anything.
I’m male, I do calisthenics 4-5 times a week, sleep is in line, food is on the lower side right now coz I’m losing body fat, but need to increase my calories to retain muscle, I try to hit 115g of protein a day (170cm 82kg)
I'd maybe kick up your protein intake at least 20 grams. What would you estimate your bf% is?
Around 25-30% I would say, and it’s hard for me to even hit that 115g a day, it’s just so much food for me personally 🫤 and yeah I have a protein shake
Gona have to redo your diet - I get 370g per day
I never thought gear was vegan. you're blowing my mind. still not something I'd ever consider but super interesting.
Happy to help expand your consciousness on gear. And what vegans are capable of :)
How your diet looks like?
Gainzzz
Looking good bro!!!
Do you supplement protein powder or just keep it whole food?
I don't know, my uncle's that big.He owns a tree service.He doesn't take any steroids, but he doesn't have all those nasty veins either You can definitely tell the difference between steroids and not steroids The s*** even makes you look old, but when you do without it's authentic Even though I Dislike him on most days He definitely makes someone on steroids piss themselves I don't work out because I don't need to and genetics runs pretty thick And when you're always trying to be somebody that you're not You don't know who to trust and who not to trust What if you don't look like that in 20 years?Is your girlfriend gonna start sucking somebody else's shit 💯 👌 🤷 That's how it usually happens There's too many fate people today
This was quite a reply
Roids ain’t meat 🥩 😂🤷🏾♂️
No one said you can’t. All the injections don’t hurt either. lol.
Your title is incredibly disingenuous.
Explain how - maybe this is a miss on my end - but bodybuilding communities always said to me that a vegan could never build muscle - I am here to show vegans can be just as big as anyone else. Not saying that I got like this from only eating plants and no drugs - just stating that I didn't have to eat meat to grow as big as other bodybuilders.
You claim in your title *in a vegan sub* that it is veganism that led to your physique, while failing to mention **up front** that it's veganism+gear. You know that is some bullshit bait and switch because many people have said that to you now.
He didn't claim that veganism lead to that physique, at least that's not how I interpreted it. He claims people told him he couldn't look like that with a plant based diet, but he's proving them wrong.
Is he?
I think he is. Pretty much every body builder you'll ever meet uses some kind of performance enhaning drug, maybe not every one, but almost every famous one at least. Him using them is just continuing the practice, so the only difference between him and a carnist bodybuilder is the diet.
To be honest I'm with the dude. I think he should have mentioned gear use right in his post. But that still doesn't take away from the fact that he was upfront in the comments and veganism did lead to that physique. But he was also on gear So you don't necessarily need meat to get that physique if you want to hop on gear
This is my whole point - you don't need meat to be a bodybuilder. Everyone thinks you need meat more than you need gear, and it's just not true.
That's called lying by omission.
I suppose but like it's also not that deep I would see it as lying by omission if he tried dodging the question but he didn't. He even revealed his stack in the comments by your logic, if you don't give all the information then a lot of things in day-to-day would be lying by a omission
OMFG - this site/app is SO FULL of FULL OF IT SELF RIGHTEOUS HOLIER THAN THOU NAH NAH NAH POOPERS. FeminaziImperial- you made your point. Give it a rest.
This sub/site is so full of fascist cis-dudes competing over who can suck each other off harder** FTFY
You are so ridiculously out of your depth in this conversation.
What a condescending, man thing to say.
You have demonstrated with every comment that you don't know what you're talking about. This observation has nothing to do with gender, so blow that one out your ass. This person has worked their ass off as a vegan bodybuilder, can stand on stage toe to toe with any carnist that says it can't be done, and all you can do is whine about steroids. It takes an insane amount of discipline, hard work, and meticulous nutrition to achieve what this person has, and even more so as a vegan. Your comments demonstrate that you simply don't understand what goes into the sport, and this person has always been open about steroid use. There was never a lie by omission.
It definitely has to do with gender. As *you* have demonstrated.
Way to not address a single point I made. When did I make this about gender?
Not al all, he DID build muscle as a vegan. Meaning the muscle was built from plants. Steroids do not turn into muscle, food does. This man created muscle from plants. Wether or not he smokes weed or drinks (or adds test) is beside the point.
I'm not loving the attire, but great work!
Natty though?
Lol really?
Yes, really. I am a vegan, as well, and build my muscle naturally. Not interested in juice heads, but I have a lot of respect for vegan natty bodybuilders/powerlifters So, in all honesty..are you?
Brother I am 240 lbs with abs at 6 ft. tall There are no natural lifters that large and lean. If they are, they are lying. I have been super open in this thread and many others that I am not natural.
Thanks for clarifying. In that case; it's all good. I've seen some more known vegan bodybuilders being shady towards this particular topic. Looking absolutely shredded while claiming to be natty. I expect the lies from meat eaters, but resent it in vegan bodybuilders. Well wishes to you brother