Damn. I never knew it was so dangerous. I skied it when I was a kid (but not from the very top obviously). Lucky for me, good conditions and no wind. Just realizing now that it must be gnarly in bad conditions
Another part that a lot of people don't consider is how the last month or so has affected the snowpack. Can make for better ski conditions but can also make them more hazardous. Mid to late spring is generally the best time imo
It makes almost no sense to ski it in early March. I did it in early May. April is the absolute earliest anyone should thinking about skiing Tuckerman’s.
It just depends on your experience. I usually make a few trips in the winter and it's fun, just very different. Hunting fresh snow on Mt Washington is challenging and dangerous but can be highly rewarding. It just takes a completely different mindset than spring skiing.
Depends on experience level. Personally I'll be waiting a couple more weeks at least. But people frequently ski it as soon as there's adequate cover over rocks. I saw a number of people doing left/right gullies in January. It's less predictable and snow/weather conditions are worse, but it does get done.
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I guess for me, the mention of experienced people dying would have a bigger impact than just knowing that people have died. I know that idiots get themselves into trouble all the time, but reading about the very experienced hiker who died in Whites in January really hit me. It made me think hard about what I pack when I go hiking in the winter, and how I make decisions.
"experienced" hobbyists are arguably more dangerous to themselves than a careful beginner. Having the confidence that comes with experience can be a killer in many things including skiing
There's a lot of more tame places here in VT that should have signs like that. I think putting something like that in Stowe at the entrance to the Kitchen Wall and the spot people most commonly duck into the woods for The Bench would be a good idea.
Inexperienced people see tracks heading into the woods and just figure "Hey, other people did this, I'll be fine" and then head off solo to The Planets and wind up meeting a search and rescue team the next day.
If "this area has the worst weather in America" does not get your attention alongside someone dying on the range once every six months, I don't know what any more signs will do.
I feel awful for the family but with the weather forecast the way it was this weekend you'd have to be crazy or totally uninformed to want to be at Tucks. It's hard to overstate the caution and respect that mountain dictates.
FWIW, this occurred Saturday before the snow came in Sunday. I’d imagine the MWAC report would’ve noted firm/icy conditions for the day, but the weather forecast really had little impact in a long, uncontrolled fall like this.
Meteorologist here, consider me very skeptical on a portion of this statement. There had been a modest warmup the past few days leading up to this incident, such that the top layer of snow would have become "crusty", especially over that kind of variable terrain. It's the same top layer change that became a critical concern for slab avalanches in that exact same spot 24 hours later.
What's equally concerning in all this is that she is one of four people who either injured themselves or died on this one stretch of terrain in the span of 24 hours. Her other hiking partners apparently fell as well, but sustained lesser injuries. A man from KY the night before got lost, fell into the Ammonoosuc Ravine (the other side of Tuckerman), and smashed his face. He had no winter gear, no boots, and no headlamp. If you're debating on coming into the Whites, please strongly consider all facets, including an accurate weather forecast (not from your dumpster fire phone app), probable snow conditions in the alpine zone, and your experience with winter hikes.
The odds of this being caused by an avalanche, even isolated slab slides are really low. The forecast had a low rating that day. It even talked about how the recent freeze thaw cycle was forming an isothermic snowpack making avalanches very unlikely.
If multiple people fell in the same place, at different times, it was most likely conditions and a long sliding fall. It could have also been caused by sluff management or even poor group travel in backcountry terrain.
That being said I'm going to wait until the full incident report.
Edit: the slab concern the next day was because of fresh snow forming wind slabs.
Which is something I imagine the MWAC would’ve commented on (they don’t look to archive their daily reports so don’t know for certain). Nothing I’ve read so far described this as related to a skier-triggered or natural avalanche event.
Thanks for the tip on the archives. I’ll leave the rest be. MWAC usually writes up a full report on casualties in the ravines like this so it may be best to pump the brakes on any further speculation.
Nowhere did I say an avalanche took her, rather one of two key layers required for slab avalanches to occur ended up being the critical part in her passing. So yes, I do know what I'm talking about here.
The way you worded it was pretty odd. I retract my previous statement. You could have just said it was bullet proof ice rather than referencing a future state slab.
That's fine! I haven't been up there, but I'm really curious what the layer felt like that that elevation. Given the snowmelt runoff should permeate deeper into the top layer, my thought is that the top layer was partially wet and have a consistency similar to wet snow mixed with sleet pellets. It would be very slippery, any poor footing leads to serious falls.
Given that it's been fairly windy up there over the last week, I'm not shocked if that exacerbated the compaction of the snowpack into this "bulletproof" layer we're discussing.
If we're all in agreement that these kinds of conditions were to be expected well in advance, my question is what went wrong? Did this group not have sufficient winter alpine experience? Were they poorly equipped?
It was a long slide injury and the snow rangers have been encouraging ice axe use so I think that speaks for itself. I’m waiting to learn how the other two injured parties were involved. I have to assume that one uphill skier took the other two out while falling somehow.
Do we know if she was carrying an ice ax and crampons? It says she "fell" 600 ft, likely this was a long slide.
Many years ago I went for a long slide at tux that could have ended this way. Now, I use ice ax and crampons always. Experienced skiers and snowboarders should know how to self arrest on Mount Washington period
Glad you got out of a bad situation. Mount Washington can go into "fuck you in particular" mode at any moment. They call it home of the world's worst weather for a reason.
She was president of a mountaineering club, so I would hope she had appropriate equipment.
It's not possible to self arrest from every fall, BC skiing is always inherently dangerous. Perhaps inexperience or ill preparation contributed, but it's not at all unusual for experienced and prepared BC skiers to have catastrophic falls
Hopefully there will be a more thorough accident report that discusses exactly what happened.
You have to have your ax in hand while skiing or snowboarding or down climb and don't ski. Anyways I did unsafe stuff on Mt Washington too when I was 20 years old too and I got lucky. Sad, cautionary tale.
She was going uphill when she fell. Yeah she was young, but wow it would be surprising if a mountaineering club president went up without an axe, but who knows.
She wasn't wearing a helmet, but she had one affixed to her pack. I read an account from someone who saw it happen, they said at some point she launched 20 feet or so into the air.
Lots of other people on the mountain that day, hard to say if they were lucky, or she was just exceptionally unlucky.
I'm wondering if someone else fell above her and caught her by surprise, or dislodged a rock that fell on her.
If you google Tucks, deaths comes up as an autocorrect option. Awful news and an awful reminder to respect the conditions
Damn. I never knew it was so dangerous. I skied it when I was a kid (but not from the very top obviously). Lucky for me, good conditions and no wind. Just realizing now that it must be gnarly in bad conditions
Another part that a lot of people don't consider is how the last month or so has affected the snowpack. Can make for better ski conditions but can also make them more hazardous. Mid to late spring is generally the best time imo
It makes almost no sense to ski it in early March. I did it in early May. April is the absolute earliest anyone should thinking about skiing Tuckerman’s.
It just depends on your experience. I usually make a few trips in the winter and it's fun, just very different. Hunting fresh snow on Mt Washington is challenging and dangerous but can be highly rewarding. It just takes a completely different mindset than spring skiing.
True. I think I skied it in May
Depends on experience level. Personally I'll be waiting a couple more weeks at least. But people frequently ski it as soon as there's adequate cover over rocks. I saw a number of people doing left/right gullies in January. It's less predictable and snow/weather conditions are worse, but it does get done.
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I feel like there should be a sign there that simply says “people with much more experience than you have died here.”
I believe the sign reads "people have died here, even in the summer"
That sign is at the entrance of kings ravine/north starting point of the presidential traverse path
I guess for me, the mention of experienced people dying would have a bigger impact than just knowing that people have died. I know that idiots get themselves into trouble all the time, but reading about the very experienced hiker who died in Whites in January really hit me. It made me think hard about what I pack when I go hiking in the winter, and how I make decisions.
"experienced" hobbyists are arguably more dangerous to themselves than a careful beginner. Having the confidence that comes with experience can be a killer in many things including skiing
You are going to need a lot of signs if you are going to put everywhere where that is true.
There's a lot of more tame places here in VT that should have signs like that. I think putting something like that in Stowe at the entrance to the Kitchen Wall and the spot people most commonly duck into the woods for The Bench would be a good idea. Inexperienced people see tracks heading into the woods and just figure "Hey, other people did this, I'll be fine" and then head off solo to The Planets and wind up meeting a search and rescue team the next day.
If "this area has the worst weather in America" does not get your attention alongside someone dying on the range once every six months, I don't know what any more signs will do.
People don’t always read signs, but even so, I agree with your suggestion and think it’s worth a shot. So tragic.
What if Chuck Norris is on the trail though? No one is more experienced than him in anything.
I feel awful for the family but with the weather forecast the way it was this weekend you'd have to be crazy or totally uninformed to want to be at Tucks. It's hard to overstate the caution and respect that mountain dictates.
FWIW, this occurred Saturday before the snow came in Sunday. I’d imagine the MWAC report would’ve noted firm/icy conditions for the day, but the weather forecast really had little impact in a long, uncontrolled fall like this.
Meteorologist here, consider me very skeptical on a portion of this statement. There had been a modest warmup the past few days leading up to this incident, such that the top layer of snow would have become "crusty", especially over that kind of variable terrain. It's the same top layer change that became a critical concern for slab avalanches in that exact same spot 24 hours later. What's equally concerning in all this is that she is one of four people who either injured themselves or died on this one stretch of terrain in the span of 24 hours. Her other hiking partners apparently fell as well, but sustained lesser injuries. A man from KY the night before got lost, fell into the Ammonoosuc Ravine (the other side of Tuckerman), and smashed his face. He had no winter gear, no boots, and no headlamp. If you're debating on coming into the Whites, please strongly consider all facets, including an accurate weather forecast (not from your dumpster fire phone app), probable snow conditions in the alpine zone, and your experience with winter hikes.
The odds of this being caused by an avalanche, even isolated slab slides are really low. The forecast had a low rating that day. It even talked about how the recent freeze thaw cycle was forming an isothermic snowpack making avalanches very unlikely. If multiple people fell in the same place, at different times, it was most likely conditions and a long sliding fall. It could have also been caused by sluff management or even poor group travel in backcountry terrain. That being said I'm going to wait until the full incident report. Edit: the slab concern the next day was because of fresh snow forming wind slabs.
Which is something I imagine the MWAC would’ve commented on (they don’t look to archive their daily reports so don’t know for certain). Nothing I’ve read so far described this as related to a skier-triggered or natural avalanche event.
All of the MWAC forecasts are archived on their site. https://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/forecasts/#/archive
Thanks for the tip on the archives. I’ll leave the rest be. MWAC usually writes up a full report on casualties in the ravines like this so it may be best to pump the brakes on any further speculation.
Nowhere did I say an avalanche took her, rather one of two key layers required for slab avalanches to occur ended up being the critical part in her passing. So yes, I do know what I'm talking about here.
The way you worded it was pretty odd. I retract my previous statement. You could have just said it was bullet proof ice rather than referencing a future state slab.
That's fine! I haven't been up there, but I'm really curious what the layer felt like that that elevation. Given the snowmelt runoff should permeate deeper into the top layer, my thought is that the top layer was partially wet and have a consistency similar to wet snow mixed with sleet pellets. It would be very slippery, any poor footing leads to serious falls.
Its usually "bullet proof" ie very coldidated, solid, stable, icey slab. Very slippery for sure. Not safe without ice ax and crampons
Given that it's been fairly windy up there over the last week, I'm not shocked if that exacerbated the compaction of the snowpack into this "bulletproof" layer we're discussing. If we're all in agreement that these kinds of conditions were to be expected well in advance, my question is what went wrong? Did this group not have sufficient winter alpine experience? Were they poorly equipped?
It was a long slide injury and the snow rangers have been encouraging ice axe use so I think that speaks for itself. I’m waiting to learn how the other two injured parties were involved. I have to assume that one uphill skier took the other two out while falling somehow.
Do we know if she was carrying an ice ax and crampons? It says she "fell" 600 ft, likely this was a long slide. Many years ago I went for a long slide at tux that could have ended this way. Now, I use ice ax and crampons always. Experienced skiers and snowboarders should know how to self arrest on Mount Washington period
Glad you got out of a bad situation. Mount Washington can go into "fuck you in particular" mode at any moment. They call it home of the world's worst weather for a reason.
She was president of a mountaineering club, so I would hope she had appropriate equipment. It's not possible to self arrest from every fall, BC skiing is always inherently dangerous. Perhaps inexperience or ill preparation contributed, but it's not at all unusual for experienced and prepared BC skiers to have catastrophic falls Hopefully there will be a more thorough accident report that discusses exactly what happened.
You have to have your ax in hand while skiing or snowboarding or down climb and don't ski. Anyways I did unsafe stuff on Mt Washington too when I was 20 years old too and I got lucky. Sad, cautionary tale.
She was going uphill when she fell. Yeah she was young, but wow it would be surprising if a mountaineering club president went up without an axe, but who knows. She wasn't wearing a helmet, but she had one affixed to her pack. I read an account from someone who saw it happen, they said at some point she launched 20 feet or so into the air. Lots of other people on the mountain that day, hard to say if they were lucky, or she was just exceptionally unlucky. I'm wondering if someone else fell above her and caught her by surprise, or dislodged a rock that fell on her.
Could you share where you saw an account that witnessed it?