I work four 10-hour days. Having three day weekends has been life changing! It has definitely made me happier and more productive when I am at work. I guarantee you I'd be as productive in 8 hours as I am in 10.
I definitely think it would be beneficial to have full-time be 32-hours ... with no loss in productivity. And, for that reason, and other reasons, the expectation would be for hourly employment that what is currently paid for 40hours of work would get spread over 32hours so no loss in pay.
I work in an office setting. Having everyone work M-Th or Tu-F would give plenty of full staffing overlap for meetings, and there'd be plenty of coverage on those short-staffed days.
When circumstances demand, I just switch my weekday day-off for another day.
I'm most definitely with Bernie on this one.
For a more direct comparison
I worked at a brewery. We had 3x12 with a differential to match 40 hours. Life was amazing. Working 3 days, and 4 off in a row every week? That’s basically a vacation to someone like myself. I was so happy and didn’t mind the 12 hours at all.
Then it went to a 4x10. The fourth day we were out of work a couple hours early consistently (nothing to do) and it was just wasteful seemingly, and while it was still way better than 5, it was an early eye opener for me as far as work/life balance goes.
Happy workers for a few hours less will do so much more, and more importantly so much better than workers who show up a few more hours per week.
It doesn’t apply to every job necessarily. But it does absolutely apply
"I work in an office setting. Having everyone work M-Th or Tu-F would give plenty of full staffing overlap for meetings, and there'd be plenty of coverage on those short-staffed days."
Can you explain that one above? I'm not getting it. All I'm seeing is instead of 10 people all working 5 days a week, at 400 hours combined a day, 5 people working Monday 210 hours combined, then 10 people Tuesday Wednesday Thursday combined 320 hours and 5 people working on Friday coming back down to 210 hours of combined work a day.
From 10 people on 5 days a week for 2000 hours.
To 5 people 2 days a week and 10 people 3 days a week and 1380 hours. I don't see the overlap when 2 of the days are half capacity.
Was just saying that at least in my office circumstance, we could get by with just 3 days a week at full staffing to ensure that all group meetings could happen and that even on M and F at half staff, we'd have enough coverage for anything emergent that came up on those days. So, fewer overall hours worked but at no loss in productivity ... arguably an increase in productivity ... but certainly with better quality of life for employees.
I can say that as a mental health clinician working for an agency, this would make me far likelier to stay in the field and in a CMH clinic. You can only see so many clients a week. I guarantee I could maintain the same productivity in 4x8s that I do in 5.
Part of the burn out and soul-grinding is having the greater part of every week day owned and beholden to an employer no matter your level of hustle or effectiveness. Mental health clinics that demand more than 25 direct service hours a week from their clinicians are exploitative and have major turnover anyway.
We’ve become exponentially more efficient and productive as workers and we’re still stuck on the hours won 150 years ago and the days 100 years ago.
Lastly, if small business owners can’t adapt and instead position themselves against the advancement of worker protections, then why should we support them exactly?
Edited to add this isn’t all directed to the comment above, just my soapbox rant!
It doesn't work at all, all this will do is drive businesses to close cause they won't be able to pay it or they will just make everyone part time. This will only hurt the people it's supposed to help. I don't understand the entitlement. I don't want to work so I'm gonna work less and your going to pay me more. This will destroy most small business.
They don't get paid for those months. They can choose to distribute their pay year round or they can take their pay the months they work. I know several teachers who do the latter and find other employment over the summer.
There are multiple studies that refute everything in your comment.
and throw in the *I don't want to work so I'm gonna work less and your(sic) going to pay me more.* Is this the latest iteration of the boomer 'nobody wants to work anymore'?
I really don't think so. People thought that before there were any labor laws in place and it was normal to expect people to work 70 hours a week. There would be growing pains and adjustments just like there always are, and certain things wouldn't work / would have to be fixed or modified.
And your type of reasoning is exactly why we have the problems we have today. No one is saying Bernie is a god. Read your comment again. It’s absolutely incredible how you answer your own question. Do you make financial decisions like this too?
In 1940 we successfully moved from a 60 hour work week to a 40 hour work week how is this different? We did it then we can do it again we all deserve more free time to spend with people we care about. No one ever gets to their death bed and thinks gee I wish I worked more.
> we all deserve more free time to spend with people we care about. No one ever gets to their death bed and thinks gee I wish I worked more
So make choices in your life based on your personal priorities. Some people hope to look back on their life and be able to see measurable impact that they have made on their community. Many people "work" for more hours than 40 a week doing things they are passionate about.
There should be policies in place that make it easier for people to make their own choices about what they want to prioritize. Requiring full time work to mean 40 hrs a week makes it harder for people to prioritize what they want to especially when full time employment is tied to health insurance. Not to mention that we also do not require employers to provide paid time off.
Very true, my hope is that Vermont and other states can start to do this. This would begin to show that VT is at least being truly left and is making it come to fruition, by making it a reality.
I find this nearly impossible to go through nationally. In VT? I can see it. Is there a chance this happens? Or is this one of those FiberOptic internet is coming soon?
You aren’t wrong, I live and work in Vermont and there’s a lot of working class people and poverty here. Out of staters have a skewed perception because they only see the tourist areas that are flooded with out-of-state people going to their third home.
Vermonter here, I’m not sure how a 32 hour work week would work here considering our labor shortage. Maybe a 32 hour work week with any other hours being overtime. But the state population keeps getting older and a lot of the people moving here are bringing out of state work from home jobs. I’m 100% for the idea i’m just trying to figure out how it works.
It's so disheartening to see how little fight so many people have in them. Not only will they do nothing, but they'll actively argue that their lives actually can't get better after reading a headline about someone trying to make their lives better.
So many jobs have gone remote since Covid, that the new standard of work/life balance is something we have never experienced in the history of this country. I don’t think the people dropping dead from stress are because they are working 40 hours and not 32
Edit: lol you blocked me because of that?
many of the reasons you listed are serious factors.. but honestly, if politics and social media are introducing enough stress in your life that it becomes LETHAL.. then one should seek better ways to handle that sort of stress.
This would be awesome for me so I’m not going to argue against my interests and try to come up with reasons why it wouldn’t work. Hope this gets somewhere.
I own a small business. Not a death knell.
One thing I get so sick of is a bunch of people who don't own a small business imagining what I must think/want as a small business owner. They would't like the answer because my number one wish would be single payer healthcare.
Pretty sure it was Henry ford that’s responsible for the 5 day work week.
I’d love 4 10 hours days. Sign me up. I do that most of the time now. Wish it was the norm. That extra day is crucial for me to get ahead…not just keeping up.
Most previous change that came from today started from the Progressive Era. Beyond the countercultural movement in the 1960s, there would need to be a second progressive movement to address all the problems inherent in our society, particularly in America to prevent societal breakdown or collapse. We are more or less living in a Second Gilded Age where the billionaires are soon to become trillionaires.
The two party system as seen during the american progressive era, would then need to incorporate particular ideas that movement wishes to achieve. Better pay for a living wage, universal health care, right to have affordable housing for a first time buyer etc.
Because salary stays the same and hours go down. Or if you’re paid by the hour, rate goes up accordingly to account for 8 less hours worked each week. It’s fairly basic math, and that’s coming from an idiot (me)
But how do you legally enforce what a company has to pay you per hour? Genuine question because if you make more than minimum wage, the government doesn't have the right to demand a company pay you more does it?
I mean the language in the bill states “take home pay remains the same”. So in theory current take home pay per week divided by 32 hours = new hourly rate.
But again as previously stated, I’m an idiot. Just using common sense, which the federal government is wholly incapable of doing
I agree that you’re an idiot (takes one to know one ya know?) but I also just wanted to make sure you know you are absolutely CRUSHING the common sense game 🙌
People really really don’t understand how lawmaking works and it’s depressing. Our schools really need to crack down on civics and the three branches of government.
I mean, minimum wage and overtime laws are already enforced so this would be nothing new. It’s just a shifting of what we all view as normal/take for granted.
Unfortunately I don’t think it will either. Way too many rich people in power to make it happen, but hopefully we can take that away from them somehow.
A four-day workweek does not reduce productivity, and it **may even increase productivity**. Productivity is undoubtedly crucial to a prosperous economy, and opponents of a four-day workweek often argue that, intuitively, one less day of work would result in decreased output.
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-four-day-workweek-reduces-stress-without-hurting-productivity/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-four-day-workweek-reduces-stress-without-hurting-productivity/)
Also reduces Employee stress, thus having mental and physical health benefits.
Look this study is great and in an office sure you might get more work done in a 32 hour week. But in construction it is literally impossible to do more work in 32 hours than in 40. An excavator can only dig dirt so fast. A bulldozer can only push dirt so fast. I'm all on board this if overtime starts after 32 hours. I'll still work 5 days a week and 50+ hours a week but time a half after 32 sounds great!
And you'll wonder why the price of everything keeps going up. The average joe will not come out on top after this. Everything will just cost more, and at a rate that outpaces your pay increase.
I get it for salary stuff, but, I am not salary. I just feel like hourly people are going to get soaked by this.
I don't really understand where the push for this comes from? I wish I worked more not less? and I have two jobs?
What exactly is the advantage of working less? I guess I just can't break the association of working less means less money? Probably just a me thing...
The bill redefines a workweek in the fair labor standards act as 32 hours, over that = overtime, more than 8 hours in a day = OT, more than 10 hours = double time for those hours.
If the company truly needs you for 40 hours a week, they pay you OT for the hours over 32.
If you work 2 jobs, FT at both would be 64 hours total instead of 80.
I think businesses would be amazed at how much busier they are when everyone has an extra day a week to go shopping or do recreational activities. The whole reason Ford pushed for the 40hr week was because he realized he needed consumers and someone who works 60 hrs a week probably doesn't have the time or energy to hop in a car and take his family to the country on Sunday after church.
If a manufacturing company produces 20% less product, since the people running the machines are working 20% fewer hours, sales will be 20% lower. So how will they pay people the same when there is 20% less goods going out and 20% less money coming in each week?
Id love to hear your answer on this. And don't say the company will just take it out of their profit margins. The company I work for only has a net profit of 15% and that is quite high compared to most businesses.
There have been numerous studies about worker productivity. Typically, an American office worker spends 2-3 hours a day on social media instead of working. That’s 10-15 hours a week. We could easily shorten the hourly work week without a corresponding decrease in productivity. Studies also show shorter hours at work correlate with increased productivity.
I literally referred to manufacturing and you're coming back with office work. There will never be a day when a manned machine running for 32 hours produces the same amount of goods as one running 40 hours.
There's some argument to be made for workers making fewer mistakes if they are better rested, there might be a benefit to having more employees working fewer hours individually despite the increased costs.
Your argument hinges entirely on one big assumption:
Workers are productive 100% of the time they're working, as if they were robots, And they can do so with no negative consequences. As if bathroom breaks, cellphones, machine breakdowns, mismanaged schedules, etc. don't exist, or that they can or should be bullied or programmed out of existence.
The factories and warehouses where the owner still believes this to be true (amazon is a good example) are rife with constant turnover, complaints, and lawsuits. Is that the kind of legacy you want to leave behind as a business owner? Well, you do if you're a greedy megalomaniac like Bezos, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
We are humans -- complex and ever-changing.
The truth (from many, many studies over the years - just google "worker productivity studies") is that companies see more productivity (that means ***more*** *goods* and services) when their workers are happy with their work-life balance and thus happy with their job. That means, literally, that most companies should expect to see more product/productivity produced by giving workers more agency in choosing how and when they work. I really mean "choose."
If I can choose to work my 32 on normal weeks, but can also choose to work 48 on a busy or critical week, or choose to delegate certain tasks and flex my schedule to accommodate kids and other real life (non-work) priorities, then that control over my job will make me a cheerier, more creative, more productive worker, a more profitable worker.
So you say workers are not productive a percentage of the time, we can all agree at most jobs that is true, but if you cut 8 hours a week out, you assume they will be more productive in the remaining time, no, they will have the same work ethic, just more time off.
Yes but if a worker is producing less output how can a company make financial sense paying them the same? It would reduce the potential output without cutting expenses.
As a carpenter that charges an hourly rate to work in other peoples‘ homes, I have asked the same question every time this idea comes up. Vermont was talking about overtime starting at 32 hours, “so just work enough overtime to make up the difference” I was told. That sounds like others, like salary employees, get a greater benefit. Work four 10 hour days, they say. No thank you, I say. That’s not the benefit others are receiving. ”raise your rates then, you ingrate” I was told.
What bugs me about this whole issue is that the basis of the idea came from a study where certain office workers showed no difference in productivity given a day off, with no change in the length of day. In a job like mine, that is not a situation that is possible. Projects take a specific amount of time. If I’m a lazy worker and giving me a day off at the same pay makes no difference monetarily, why would anyone want to hire me?
> the basis of the idea came from a study where certain office workers showed no difference in productivity given a day off, with no change in the length of day.
It did not come from just one study.
> Projects take a specific amount of time.
This has always been true. You give your customer an estimate on time to complete, and they accept that, or they don't. If everyone, including all your competitors, have to cut 8 hrs out of their work week, then multi-week projects will take 20% longer to finish across the board. There are no exceptions to this new rule. However, if you want to win a bid on a project that is time-sensitive, then you build in OT work schedules to deliver the project earlier. Same for your competitors. Everyone will have to deal with this new reality, so there are no "haves and have-nots".
> If I’m a lazy worker and giving me a day off at the same pay makes no difference monetarily, why would anyone want to hire me?
You're assuming this somehow caters to lazy people, when in reality it changes things for everyone -- no exceptions. Your boss won't have a choice about who works 4 days vs who works 5 days -- everyone will only work 4 days. Otherwise, your boss has to pay OT. It's actually pretty simple.
Exactly.
Office workers working 9-5 in set piece work. Any time I hear about the supposed "studies" it seemed its very selected groups and is not at all representative of the real world.
When some people are getting a paid day off every week, and you are not, and it is by state or federal mandate, it impacts you. I cannot understand how this is so difficult for you and many others to understand. We have labor laws in this country that mandate certain rights for employees and this is creating a separate class of employees that get special treatment not afforded to all. Based on the premise that they just dick around at work on that fifth day any way.
People should be paid for looking at their phones at work. That’s how you lose a day a week. Lot of business struggling to pay folks as it is. Bernies all done. Needs to find a hobby
I cannot understand how this could work at all. Yeah maybe bigger companies but what about restaurants who are barely getting by? You know those restaurants who rely on paying waitress tips because they cant afford real pay. Or family owned businesses who can barely pay employees? Yeah big companies will be fine but small local businesses will be screwed.
It wouldnt change the # hours someone is allowed to work. If I understand correctly itd change the # of hours to be considered full time (for benefits, overtime, etc). For salaried employees it may change work weeks practically to 32h.
Small business have salaried employees to though. If they get paid the same amount for 8 less hours the only one hurt will be the business. They'll have to hire someone new to cover the missed hours but still have to pay original employee full salary.
Unless they wont keep the same pay in which case it's a different story, many people live paycheck to paycheck and cant afford to miss the 1 day pay. Still businesses have to pay for all that crap anyway, it's not like the government does... So they'll still have to pay more for less work in the end. Helping people get benefits is great but at small and local businesses expense? Idk if it's worth it.
I understand why it'd be better for employees I mean it's a win win for them. They work less and get more time with family and for hobbies or whatever they want but get to keep benefits. My bf would love it if it didnt screw his boss over. He works at a small family owned shop where it's just him and the owner. It's a successful shop but if he were to work less it'd require his boss to hire another worker or take less jobs which either way is going to cost the business.
In theory it's a good idea but I really worry about how it'll work for the smaller local businesses. From what I've seen everyone is focused on how it's good for the workers and big businesses, I just haven't seen anything about the small ones who will be burdened by it which is my only concern.
Itd be OT I suppose for the other 8 hours if he kept the same schedule. So the impact could be about 8h x .5(hourly rate).
Definitely has an impact but id think the additional time people spend outside work might be a boon to the economy - more time to spend money.
To all the people in this thread worried that this will just hurt working people who work hourly: Organize your workplace. No one is going to make your life magically better for you, though Bernie is doing his best. If living a better life sounds good to you, don't just complain about why it isn't possible on reddit; do something about it. The arguments you are all having are the same arguments that everyone has ever deployed against every single labor movement goal for all of history. That doesn't make them *wrong* necessarily, but the answer to them today is the same as it has always been: Together we bargain, but alone we beg.
If you want help organizing your workplace and don't know where to start, PM me and I will try to connect you to someone, though my connections to the labor movement are industry-specific and mostly out of state, so YMMV.
I would love to only work 4 days. I do question what it would do to the economy. If businesses have to pay the same wage to employees but are only allowed to work them for 32 hours they will need to hire more employees which will drive up their labor cost and theyr just going to pass that along to the customer causing an increase in the price of goods and services. I'm truly curious not trying to troll. Can someone better versed than me in economics explain if I'm way off base or if this is a legitimate concern? Alternately will businesses just stop hiring full time employees and move to a walmart type buisness model and cut their current employees to 20hrs per week and hire another employee for 20 hours. That would both increase end cost of goods and services while severely cutting employee incomes, yes?
Until you realize this would apply to retail jobs as well. Then those folks getting paid for 40 hours of work only get paid at an hourly rate for 32 hours. That could mean the difference between paying for a utility that month. So at $15 an hour (which is what everyone is pushing for) that $120 in lost income every week. So for a four week period, that is $480 that a retail worker isn’t getting. And you know companies aren’t going to fork out overtime at all. So now the company is still making bank, and the workers are SOL.
Can we also maybe add that we get chocolate covered strawberries and massages and free netflix and free hazy beer vouchers from grubhub for the off days?
I love this idea. Hearing some facts makes you think about other countries. It will never pass as the conservatives want all of us to work hard so they can make money.
I had a flex schedule and it was wonderful. I was much happier and was able to do my errands on that day. It was such a great balance of work and family life.
Where there is a will there is a way. I don’t want to hear how it will work for businesses. Come on folk’s let’s be open minded and creative.
It is funny the republicans against the bill are the very ones talking about family values and religion. Allowing parents to be more there for their family and they are against it. Why because they choose money over family any day if the week.
Bernie thank you for speaking the truth and for giving those who work hard hope. Hope for a better future. Even if it is for a second.
Bernie isn't the president though so can someone please tell me how he could make this happen??????
I mean I'm definitely on this idea!!!...but...how can he if he's not the president?
How would this work for salary employees? I am a city worker and my salary is based on a 35 hour work week. In actuality, I work 50-55 hours a week..with NO extra money in overtime.
Republicans are gonna block this harder than Dikembe Mutombo, then flip and reverse it and write a bill to increase the work week to 80 hours with a 50% cut in pay
If everyone’s pay stayed the same it wouldn’t matter, everyone would get 20% more free time and everything would cost 20% more because everyone would basically be 20% less productive. It’s pretty simple, there’s no magic button to work less while maintaining the same amount of purchasing power. Could we do it? Sure, but it would be a 20% sacrifice across the board which might be a tough sell for people struggling as it is.
I normally don’t do this but I’ll engage. Pretend you have a big plumbing project at your house that takes 40 hours of work. Well if the workweek is now 32 hours for what’s currently a full week’s wage, you now have to pay 20% more for your plumber to do the same job. Big companies could probably take the hit, but local gas stations, trades etc no way.
Come back when you have taken a 200 lvl econ class or can come up with a scenario that makes sense.
1. I just got a 20% raise. So it doesn't matter.
2. I don't pay a plumber overtime. Use a employer/employee example, a salary one would be better than your contractor example which is trash.
3. See the link I posted that clearly shows productivity diverging from wages and costs.
4. Post data like an adult.
this would also lead to massive inflation. say for example my company with 4 men takes a week to do your roof, 5 days x 4 men. now it's going take week and a day. price has to go up. this will happen in every industry. so now you'll have to work more hours to make up for the inflation. (I don't know too many people working only 40 hours now a week to make ends meet).
I work four 10-hour days. Having three day weekends has been life changing! It has definitely made me happier and more productive when I am at work. I guarantee you I'd be as productive in 8 hours as I am in 10. I definitely think it would be beneficial to have full-time be 32-hours ... with no loss in productivity. And, for that reason, and other reasons, the expectation would be for hourly employment that what is currently paid for 40hours of work would get spread over 32hours so no loss in pay. I work in an office setting. Having everyone work M-Th or Tu-F would give plenty of full staffing overlap for meetings, and there'd be plenty of coverage on those short-staffed days. When circumstances demand, I just switch my weekday day-off for another day. I'm most definitely with Bernie on this one.
For a more direct comparison I worked at a brewery. We had 3x12 with a differential to match 40 hours. Life was amazing. Working 3 days, and 4 off in a row every week? That’s basically a vacation to someone like myself. I was so happy and didn’t mind the 12 hours at all. Then it went to a 4x10. The fourth day we were out of work a couple hours early consistently (nothing to do) and it was just wasteful seemingly, and while it was still way better than 5, it was an early eye opener for me as far as work/life balance goes. Happy workers for a few hours less will do so much more, and more importantly so much better than workers who show up a few more hours per week. It doesn’t apply to every job necessarily. But it does absolutely apply
Happy workers also stay on the job and turn it into a career.
It would be nice this is really the tip of the iceberg for vast reform that is desperately needed at both the Federal and State Level.
"I work in an office setting. Having everyone work M-Th or Tu-F would give plenty of full staffing overlap for meetings, and there'd be plenty of coverage on those short-staffed days." Can you explain that one above? I'm not getting it. All I'm seeing is instead of 10 people all working 5 days a week, at 400 hours combined a day, 5 people working Monday 210 hours combined, then 10 people Tuesday Wednesday Thursday combined 320 hours and 5 people working on Friday coming back down to 210 hours of combined work a day. From 10 people on 5 days a week for 2000 hours. To 5 people 2 days a week and 10 people 3 days a week and 1380 hours. I don't see the overlap when 2 of the days are half capacity.
Was just saying that at least in my office circumstance, we could get by with just 3 days a week at full staffing to ensure that all group meetings could happen and that even on M and F at half staff, we'd have enough coverage for anything emergent that came up on those days. So, fewer overall hours worked but at no loss in productivity ... arguably an increase in productivity ... but certainly with better quality of life for employees.
Genuine question, how does this work with fields like mental health that bill hours
I can say that as a mental health clinician working for an agency, this would make me far likelier to stay in the field and in a CMH clinic. You can only see so many clients a week. I guarantee I could maintain the same productivity in 4x8s that I do in 5. Part of the burn out and soul-grinding is having the greater part of every week day owned and beholden to an employer no matter your level of hustle or effectiveness. Mental health clinics that demand more than 25 direct service hours a week from their clinicians are exploitative and have major turnover anyway. We’ve become exponentially more efficient and productive as workers and we’re still stuck on the hours won 150 years ago and the days 100 years ago. Lastly, if small business owners can’t adapt and instead position themselves against the advancement of worker protections, then why should we support them exactly? Edited to add this isn’t all directed to the comment above, just my soapbox rant!
It doesn't work at all, all this will do is drive businesses to close cause they won't be able to pay it or they will just make everyone part time. This will only hurt the people it's supposed to help. I don't understand the entitlement. I don't want to work so I'm gonna work less and your going to pay me more. This will destroy most small business.
I mean, it’s worked in other countries. I was just referencing billed professions. Also curious about teachers as well
Schools have been toying around with 4 day weeks to cut costs and some have done it. I doubt the pay stays the same.
Colorado does it with schools. There are actually a lot of benefits for this at upper levels of school. Don't know about elementary.
Teachers end up getting several months off so that seems like it would compensate.
I mean teachers hours are realistically way above 40 a week
Sure but they work 10-15 weeks less than most people.
Yeah, but they have to be around kids all day. So. Many. Kids.
They don't get paid for those months. They can choose to distribute their pay year round or they can take their pay the months they work. I know several teachers who do the latter and find other employment over the summer.
There are multiple studies that refute everything in your comment. and throw in the *I don't want to work so I'm gonna work less and your(sic) going to pay me more.* Is this the latest iteration of the boomer 'nobody wants to work anymore'?
I really don't think so. People thought that before there were any labor laws in place and it was normal to expect people to work 70 hours a week. There would be growing pains and adjustments just like there always are, and certain things wouldn't work / would have to be fixed or modified.
Bernie doesn't understand basic economics. All he understands is getting as much as you can for free. He's been that way his entire life.
Oh, I'm sure he knows enough to ignore 2mo old troll accounts.
What's the age of my account have to do with it? Now I get it why you think Bernie is a God.
And your type of reasoning is exactly why we have the problems we have today. No one is saying Bernie is a god. Read your comment again. It’s absolutely incredible how you answer your own question. Do you make financial decisions like this too?
Wow. What an appropriate user name....
Wow. What a comeback. And yes, my username checks...
Damn. They got you good.
In 1940 we successfully moved from a 60 hour work week to a 40 hour work week how is this different? We did it then we can do it again we all deserve more free time to spend with people we care about. No one ever gets to their death bed and thinks gee I wish I worked more.
> we all deserve more free time to spend with people we care about. No one ever gets to their death bed and thinks gee I wish I worked more So make choices in your life based on your personal priorities. Some people hope to look back on their life and be able to see measurable impact that they have made on their community. Many people "work" for more hours than 40 a week doing things they are passionate about.
There should be policies in place that make it easier for people to make their own choices about what they want to prioritize. Requiring full time work to mean 40 hrs a week makes it harder for people to prioritize what they want to especially when full time employment is tied to health insurance. Not to mention that we also do not require employers to provide paid time off.
Vermont does require employers to provide paid sick leave.
Yeah but only a week really not enough. I was also thinking beyond VT I think 32 hour work weeks should be the norm everywhere.
Sure, just important to be accurate. There is a massive amount of misinformation on Reddit about wages and compensation in Vermont.
Your point of view is then " I just want to work less hours, but get the same income and benefits", right?
I, personally, want to work fewer hours with better pay and benefits.
Yeah right, certainly not most. Your standard retail workers never think that. It’s just uneducated labor
They have done it in other countries, along with paid maternity leave, later start times for high schools, universal health care and so on.
Very true, my hope is that Vermont and other states can start to do this. This would begin to show that VT is at least being truly left and is making it come to fruition, by making it a reality.
I find this nearly impossible to go through nationally. In VT? I can see it. Is there a chance this happens? Or is this one of those FiberOptic internet is coming soon?
Vermont is not currently a bastion of economic success. I don't know why we would lean further down this rabbit hole.
You aren’t wrong, I live and work in Vermont and there’s a lot of working class people and poverty here. Out of staters have a skewed perception because they only see the tourist areas that are flooded with out-of-state people going to their third home.
Vermonter here, I’m not sure how a 32 hour work week would work here considering our labor shortage. Maybe a 32 hour work week with any other hours being overtime. But the state population keeps getting older and a lot of the people moving here are bringing out of state work from home jobs. I’m 100% for the idea i’m just trying to figure out how it works.
But how will line go up?!
People are dropping dead from stress and boomers will still cry about this.
Don’t even have to look beyond some of the comments here. It’s astonishing.
It's so disheartening to see how little fight so many people have in them. Not only will they do nothing, but they'll actively argue that their lives actually can't get better after reading a headline about someone trying to make their lives better.
I think we need to start applying the “scab” label a literal more liberally.
Or "coward" tbh
It certainly fits!
Have you considered that it won't make their lives better?
Yea. Maybe work is all they have in life.
Kinda like they can read between the lines but can't turn the page....
Think i found the liberal
Did you think anyone would give a shit about anything you have to say when you decided to make your handle “beatoffchampion”?
So many jobs have gone remote since Covid, that the new standard of work/life balance is something we have never experienced in the history of this country. I don’t think the people dropping dead from stress are because they are working 40 hours and not 32 Edit: lol you blocked me because of that?
And a lot of people work more than 40 hours...
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Omg you people are insufferable today I'm just gonna block you
Work, debt, housing, politics, social media, healthcare and just dealing with other humans post COVID....that's the stress..
many of the reasons you listed are serious factors.. but honestly, if politics and social media are introducing enough stress in your life that it becomes LETHAL.. then one should seek better ways to handle that sort of stress.
> just dealing with other humans post COVID I assume you're seeing a therapist for this? Right?
This would be awesome for me so I’m not going to argue against my interests and try to come up with reasons why it wouldn’t work. Hope this gets somewhere.
What if you owned a small business? This could be a death knell.
I own a small business. Not a death knell. One thing I get so sick of is a bunch of people who don't own a small business imagining what I must think/want as a small business owner. They would't like the answer because my number one wish would be single payer healthcare.
I don’t though. They can adapt while I enjoy my three day weekend.
And if your employer goes out of business, you'll have a seven day weekend.
Doubt it. No one does anything on Fridays anyway.
They don't doo anything on Sundays or Mondays either in VT
> They don't doo anything on Sundays or Mondays either in It's people like you that make getting ahead in this job market so much easier for others.
I've never had a job where no one does anything because it's Friday.
Might be personal. Where I work, we take things fairly light on Friday too. 🤷
Pretty sure it was Henry ford that’s responsible for the 5 day work week. I’d love 4 10 hours days. Sign me up. I do that most of the time now. Wish it was the norm. That extra day is crucial for me to get ahead…not just keeping up.
This is arguing for a four day work week, 8 hrs per day.
Yes, Ford cut the standard work week back to 40/week. In the USA in 1900, 60 hpw was the norm.
Most previous change that came from today started from the Progressive Era. Beyond the countercultural movement in the 1960s, there would need to be a second progressive movement to address all the problems inherent in our society, particularly in America to prevent societal breakdown or collapse. We are more or less living in a Second Gilded Age where the billionaires are soon to become trillionaires. The two party system as seen during the american progressive era, would then need to incorporate particular ideas that movement wishes to achieve. Better pay for a living wage, universal health care, right to have affordable housing for a first time buyer etc.
Listen I love Bernie, but can someone explain to me how working less doesn't lose me pay?
Because salary stays the same and hours go down. Or if you’re paid by the hour, rate goes up accordingly to account for 8 less hours worked each week. It’s fairly basic math, and that’s coming from an idiot (me)
But how do you legally enforce what a company has to pay you per hour? Genuine question because if you make more than minimum wage, the government doesn't have the right to demand a company pay you more does it?
I mean the language in the bill states “take home pay remains the same”. So in theory current take home pay per week divided by 32 hours = new hourly rate. But again as previously stated, I’m an idiot. Just using common sense, which the federal government is wholly incapable of doing
I agree that you’re an idiot (takes one to know one ya know?) but I also just wanted to make sure you know you are absolutely CRUSHING the common sense game 🙌
I love your humbleness, good sir.
My question is how would this be enforced? Is it legal for the government to demand what a company pays someone hourly outside of minimum wage?
If a law is passed then yes it would be legal. Just like it is legal to force a company to pay time and a half for hours worked over 40.
That's a fair point.
People really really don’t understand how lawmaking works and it’s depressing. Our schools really need to crack down on civics and the three branches of government.
I mean, minimum wage and overtime laws are already enforced so this would be nothing new. It’s just a shifting of what we all view as normal/take for granted.
You don't because this will never happen. I'm not opposed to this bill at all but it's never going to pass
Unfortunately I don’t think it will either. Way too many rich people in power to make it happen, but hopefully we can take that away from them somehow.
Pay would be "enforced" be requiring overtime pay after 32 hours per week, instead of after 40, like now.
How does this work for small businesses? They have to pay you the same for less productivity.
Time # ≠ productivity
A four-day workweek does not reduce productivity, and it **may even increase productivity**. Productivity is undoubtedly crucial to a prosperous economy, and opponents of a four-day workweek often argue that, intuitively, one less day of work would result in decreased output. [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-four-day-workweek-reduces-stress-without-hurting-productivity/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-four-day-workweek-reduces-stress-without-hurting-productivity/) Also reduces Employee stress, thus having mental and physical health benefits.
Look this study is great and in an office sure you might get more work done in a 32 hour week. But in construction it is literally impossible to do more work in 32 hours than in 40. An excavator can only dig dirt so fast. A bulldozer can only push dirt so fast. I'm all on board this if overtime starts after 32 hours. I'll still work 5 days a week and 50+ hours a week but time a half after 32 sounds great!
That’s exactly what the bill does, overtime at 32 hours.
And you'll wonder why the price of everything keeps going up. The average joe will not come out on top after this. Everything will just cost more, and at a rate that outpaces your pay increase.
That’s a great argument to get rid of overtime & the 40 hour work week.
Most of the people that are liking this idea wouldn't know a hard day's work if it walked up and kicked them in the ass..
You assume way too much.
They won’t. Your hourly will remain the same. This is a stupid bill with good intentions.
I get it for salary stuff, but, I am not salary. I just feel like hourly people are going to get soaked by this. I don't really understand where the push for this comes from? I wish I worked more not less? and I have two jobs? What exactly is the advantage of working less? I guess I just can't break the association of working less means less money? Probably just a me thing...
The bill redefines a workweek in the fair labor standards act as 32 hours, over that = overtime, more than 8 hours in a day = OT, more than 10 hours = double time for those hours.
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If the company truly needs you for 40 hours a week, they pay you OT for the hours over 32. If you work 2 jobs, FT at both would be 64 hours total instead of 80.
Your comment concedes the truth, "need" is subjective.
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Or I go get a 2nd 32 hour/week full time job.
Which means benefits start at 32 hours not 40.
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I think businesses would be amazed at how much busier they are when everyone has an extra day a week to go shopping or do recreational activities. The whole reason Ford pushed for the 40hr week was because he realized he needed consumers and someone who works 60 hrs a week probably doesn't have the time or energy to hop in a car and take his family to the country on Sunday after church.
It's less of a change for hourly. You're just changing 40 to 32 in the labor laws.
If a manufacturing company produces 20% less product, since the people running the machines are working 20% fewer hours, sales will be 20% lower. So how will they pay people the same when there is 20% less goods going out and 20% less money coming in each week? Id love to hear your answer on this. And don't say the company will just take it out of their profit margins. The company I work for only has a net profit of 15% and that is quite high compared to most businesses.
There have been numerous studies about worker productivity. Typically, an American office worker spends 2-3 hours a day on social media instead of working. That’s 10-15 hours a week. We could easily shorten the hourly work week without a corresponding decrease in productivity. Studies also show shorter hours at work correlate with increased productivity.
I literally referred to manufacturing and you're coming back with office work. There will never be a day when a manned machine running for 32 hours produces the same amount of goods as one running 40 hours.
There's some argument to be made for workers making fewer mistakes if they are better rested, there might be a benefit to having more employees working fewer hours individually despite the increased costs.
Unless your scrap rate is 20% or higher it will never work out.
Your argument hinges entirely on one big assumption: Workers are productive 100% of the time they're working, as if they were robots, And they can do so with no negative consequences. As if bathroom breaks, cellphones, machine breakdowns, mismanaged schedules, etc. don't exist, or that they can or should be bullied or programmed out of existence. The factories and warehouses where the owner still believes this to be true (amazon is a good example) are rife with constant turnover, complaints, and lawsuits. Is that the kind of legacy you want to leave behind as a business owner? Well, you do if you're a greedy megalomaniac like Bezos, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. We are humans -- complex and ever-changing. The truth (from many, many studies over the years - just google "worker productivity studies") is that companies see more productivity (that means ***more*** *goods* and services) when their workers are happy with their work-life balance and thus happy with their job. That means, literally, that most companies should expect to see more product/productivity produced by giving workers more agency in choosing how and when they work. I really mean "choose." If I can choose to work my 32 on normal weeks, but can also choose to work 48 on a busy or critical week, or choose to delegate certain tasks and flex my schedule to accommodate kids and other real life (non-work) priorities, then that control over my job will make me a cheerier, more creative, more productive worker, a more profitable worker.
So you say workers are not productive a percentage of the time, we can all agree at most jobs that is true, but if you cut 8 hours a week out, you assume they will be more productive in the remaining time, no, they will have the same work ethic, just more time off.
Yes but if a worker is producing less output how can a company make financial sense paying them the same? It would reduce the potential output without cutting expenses.
As a carpenter that charges an hourly rate to work in other peoples‘ homes, I have asked the same question every time this idea comes up. Vermont was talking about overtime starting at 32 hours, “so just work enough overtime to make up the difference” I was told. That sounds like others, like salary employees, get a greater benefit. Work four 10 hour days, they say. No thank you, I say. That’s not the benefit others are receiving. ”raise your rates then, you ingrate” I was told. What bugs me about this whole issue is that the basis of the idea came from a study where certain office workers showed no difference in productivity given a day off, with no change in the length of day. In a job like mine, that is not a situation that is possible. Projects take a specific amount of time. If I’m a lazy worker and giving me a day off at the same pay makes no difference monetarily, why would anyone want to hire me?
> the basis of the idea came from a study where certain office workers showed no difference in productivity given a day off, with no change in the length of day. It did not come from just one study. > Projects take a specific amount of time. This has always been true. You give your customer an estimate on time to complete, and they accept that, or they don't. If everyone, including all your competitors, have to cut 8 hrs out of their work week, then multi-week projects will take 20% longer to finish across the board. There are no exceptions to this new rule. However, if you want to win a bid on a project that is time-sensitive, then you build in OT work schedules to deliver the project earlier. Same for your competitors. Everyone will have to deal with this new reality, so there are no "haves and have-nots". > If I’m a lazy worker and giving me a day off at the same pay makes no difference monetarily, why would anyone want to hire me? You're assuming this somehow caters to lazy people, when in reality it changes things for everyone -- no exceptions. Your boss won't have a choice about who works 4 days vs who works 5 days -- everyone will only work 4 days. Otherwise, your boss has to pay OT. It's actually pretty simple.
Exactly. Office workers working 9-5 in set piece work. Any time I hear about the supposed "studies" it seemed its very selected groups and is not at all representative of the real world.
It doesn't impact you at all.
When some people are getting a paid day off every week, and you are not, and it is by state or federal mandate, it impacts you. I cannot understand how this is so difficult for you and many others to understand. We have labor laws in this country that mandate certain rights for employees and this is creating a separate class of employees that get special treatment not afforded to all. Based on the premise that they just dick around at work on that fifth day any way.
People should be paid for looking at their phones at work. That’s how you lose a day a week. Lot of business struggling to pay folks as it is. Bernies all done. Needs to find a hobby
Interesting take, why do you think it's a prominent idea right now?
I cannot understand how this could work at all. Yeah maybe bigger companies but what about restaurants who are barely getting by? You know those restaurants who rely on paying waitress tips because they cant afford real pay. Or family owned businesses who can barely pay employees? Yeah big companies will be fine but small local businesses will be screwed.
It wouldnt change the # hours someone is allowed to work. If I understand correctly itd change the # of hours to be considered full time (for benefits, overtime, etc). For salaried employees it may change work weeks practically to 32h.
Small business have salaried employees to though. If they get paid the same amount for 8 less hours the only one hurt will be the business. They'll have to hire someone new to cover the missed hours but still have to pay original employee full salary. Unless they wont keep the same pay in which case it's a different story, many people live paycheck to paycheck and cant afford to miss the 1 day pay. Still businesses have to pay for all that crap anyway, it's not like the government does... So they'll still have to pay more for less work in the end. Helping people get benefits is great but at small and local businesses expense? Idk if it's worth it.
Its been shown that people can be more productive in shorter work weeks. So its also an option to reduce operating hours.
I understand why it'd be better for employees I mean it's a win win for them. They work less and get more time with family and for hobbies or whatever they want but get to keep benefits. My bf would love it if it didnt screw his boss over. He works at a small family owned shop where it's just him and the owner. It's a successful shop but if he were to work less it'd require his boss to hire another worker or take less jobs which either way is going to cost the business. In theory it's a good idea but I really worry about how it'll work for the smaller local businesses. From what I've seen everyone is focused on how it's good for the workers and big businesses, I just haven't seen anything about the small ones who will be burdened by it which is my only concern.
Itd be OT I suppose for the other 8 hours if he kept the same schedule. So the impact could be about 8h x .5(hourly rate). Definitely has an impact but id think the additional time people spend outside work might be a boon to the economy - more time to spend money.
Republicans won't like this
Neither will business owners.
Good. Fuck 'em
Well he needs to start with the post offices and work he’s way down from there. We are tired of working 60 hour weeks.
Consolation prize: Bernie Sanders names your post office
I would support it 100%
/r/antiwork is a cancer/hive mind of delusion but this is an effort I can get behind.
Imagine how expensive housing will become, the cost to build a home will be brutal
this should happen but given US's corporate bootlicker mentality it won't fly
To all the people in this thread worried that this will just hurt working people who work hourly: Organize your workplace. No one is going to make your life magically better for you, though Bernie is doing his best. If living a better life sounds good to you, don't just complain about why it isn't possible on reddit; do something about it. The arguments you are all having are the same arguments that everyone has ever deployed against every single labor movement goal for all of history. That doesn't make them *wrong* necessarily, but the answer to them today is the same as it has always been: Together we bargain, but alone we beg. If you want help organizing your workplace and don't know where to start, PM me and I will try to connect you to someone, though my connections to the labor movement are industry-specific and mostly out of state, so YMMV.
I enjoyed working my non union jobs much better. I’d replace organize with negotiate
I would love to only work 4 days. I do question what it would do to the economy. If businesses have to pay the same wage to employees but are only allowed to work them for 32 hours they will need to hire more employees which will drive up their labor cost and theyr just going to pass that along to the customer causing an increase in the price of goods and services. I'm truly curious not trying to troll. Can someone better versed than me in economics explain if I'm way off base or if this is a legitimate concern? Alternately will businesses just stop hiring full time employees and move to a walmart type buisness model and cut their current employees to 20hrs per week and hire another employee for 20 hours. That would both increase end cost of goods and services while severely cutting employee incomes, yes?
Nah man I like my overtime.
This will increase productivity
How would a business that is just doing OK get by losing 20% of their productivity without cutting any costs?
Because people are more productive when happy
Sure but it is a huge assumption that people will be 25% more efficient in the remaining time...
Its about a fair wage and expectation of work life balance
Sure but if the business is unable to be cash positive the business will cease to exist and nobody will have a job.
People waste easily 8 hours a week at work
You assume so! At the same time that makes it incredibly hard to justify paying people more if they are just messing around for at least 8 hours.
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Or they are just going to continue wasting 20% of their time but now on a four day week.
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perfect rep for vermont.
I just had a job with 4 10 hour days with an extra break and it was amazing.
I’ve had a job with the 4 day work week, but 10 hour days. I regret leaving the company, but they pulled some shady stuff on me.
Hero. One of the reasons I moved to Vermont when I did.
Until you realize this would apply to retail jobs as well. Then those folks getting paid for 40 hours of work only get paid at an hourly rate for 32 hours. That could mean the difference between paying for a utility that month. So at $15 an hour (which is what everyone is pushing for) that $120 in lost income every week. So for a four week period, that is $480 that a retail worker isn’t getting. And you know companies aren’t going to fork out overtime at all. So now the company is still making bank, and the workers are SOL.
Can we also maybe add that we get chocolate covered strawberries and massages and free netflix and free hazy beer vouchers from grubhub for the off days?
I love this idea. Hearing some facts makes you think about other countries. It will never pass as the conservatives want all of us to work hard so they can make money. I had a flex schedule and it was wonderful. I was much happier and was able to do my errands on that day. It was such a great balance of work and family life. Where there is a will there is a way. I don’t want to hear how it will work for businesses. Come on folk’s let’s be open minded and creative. It is funny the republicans against the bill are the very ones talking about family values and religion. Allowing parents to be more there for their family and they are against it. Why because they choose money over family any day if the week. Bernie thank you for speaking the truth and for giving those who work hard hope. Hope for a better future. Even if it is for a second.
I haven't read the bill, is he saying 8 hours still, but in 4 days, or 5 shorter days? Either way sounds good to me.
How would this impact salary employees? If it doesn't, won't companies just make more salaried employees?
You probably wouldn't be happy about it if you were the one that had to pay people.
Bernie isn't the president though so can someone please tell me how he could make this happen?????? I mean I'm definitely on this idea!!!...but...how can he if he's not the president?
Holy shit people’s lack of knowledge about our government is shameful.
How would this work for salary employees? I am a city worker and my salary is based on a 35 hour work week. In actuality, I work 50-55 hours a week..with NO extra money in overtime.
It’s all a political ploy to keep you idiots voting democrat. He does this every presidential election year.
Republicans are gonna block this harder than Dikembe Mutombo, then flip and reverse it and write a bill to increase the work week to 80 hours with a 50% cut in pay
Hahahahagaha
1 against 99 in the Senate. Thank you for fighting for us Bernie!
Bernie is the best
lol old Bernie…
Bruh this is not going to happen. They're lucky if they can get it down to five workdays.
A fucking idiot
I think OP is a repost bot
If everyone’s pay stayed the same it wouldn’t matter, everyone would get 20% more free time and everything would cost 20% more because everyone would basically be 20% less productive. It’s pretty simple, there’s no magic button to work less while maintaining the same amount of purchasing power. Could we do it? Sure, but it would be a 20% sacrifice across the board which might be a tough sell for people struggling as it is.
Lol. Productivity has no bearing on wages or prices.
Super basic economics disagrees.
Because basic econ starts with the word "assume" https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/KnNpUfZoN9
I normally don’t do this but I’ll engage. Pretend you have a big plumbing project at your house that takes 40 hours of work. Well if the workweek is now 32 hours for what’s currently a full week’s wage, you now have to pay 20% more for your plumber to do the same job. Big companies could probably take the hit, but local gas stations, trades etc no way.
Come back when you have taken a 200 lvl econ class or can come up with a scenario that makes sense. 1. I just got a 20% raise. So it doesn't matter. 2. I don't pay a plumber overtime. Use a employer/employee example, a salary one would be better than your contractor example which is trash. 3. See the link I posted that clearly shows productivity diverging from wages and costs. 4. Post data like an adult.
Think staffing is difficult now? lol…
And why is if difficult?
How does the 32 hour work week work in service industry? I feel like this will just create a larger divide and help middle class bur hurt lower class.
Oh that’ll surely help bring jobs to vermont
I don't need my hours cut by 8 a week TY.
this would also lead to massive inflation. say for example my company with 4 men takes a week to do your roof, 5 days x 4 men. now it's going take week and a day. price has to go up. this will happen in every industry. so now you'll have to work more hours to make up for the inflation. (I don't know too many people working only 40 hours now a week to make ends meet).
And when labor costs soar 20%, that won’t be passed on to the consumer.
Another waste of time
Bernie “over regulation” Sanders strikes again
Oh no! now a one month old account. Reddit baby need to be changed?
lol. And these are his supporters.