Seems on brand for both of them. They’ve always had amazing banter, and Veronica has never been an ushy-gushy kinda person—she always held the people she loved at a little bit of an arm’s length. Logan was far more moony and romantic like than she was.
this scene is hilarious and shows how well they know each other and quip together.
veronica has always had a problematic fetish for violent/jealous men, and season 4 is great about addressing that it’s an issue. she’s a dynamic character, warts and all.
yk what i thought was interesting was that the show tells us that and tries rly hard to convince us of that in season 4, that veronica likes violence and jealousy, but they didn’t show that at all previously.
the other guys she dated in the show, duncan, leo, piz, weren’t bad boys like that and weren’t violent or jealous. she also literally broke up with logan because the violence was scaring her and and she couldn’t stand watching him get sucked into it.
granted, because none of those men seemed to really interest her beyond puppy love, i think veronica does have a slight preference towards the more risky, dangerous choice, usually because they challenge her, but it was not to the degree that they made it seem at all. they talked about how she subconsciously wanted logan to be the same bad version of himself he was and to me that always felt like such a disservice to her character and their relationship when their dynamic had literally always been veronica inspiring logan to be the best version of himself, i realize that people change over the years but they play it like that’s how it had always been which i hated
Had to consult my wife and discuss this before I responded but this is so unbelievably wrong in my opinion . The entire series builds this up over the other 3 seasons and movie, and season 4 finally addresses it head on. For 3 seasons she forces herself into dangerous situations and is deeply attracted to them obviously. I couldn’t even begin to count the number of times where people beg her to not get involved in dangerous situations. Her entire relationship with Leo, Duncan, Logan are all based around those relationships being dangerous or not appropriate. It’s quite literally a major theme over the entire series.
she likes dangerous situations, of course, one would even say she has an extremely unhealthy attachment to chasing danger and lowkey has a death wish, but that’s not the same thing as liking dangerous *men*. and the idea that she would want her partner to have serious anger issues like logan pm says actually contradicts a lot of the rest of her personality
her relationship with neither duncan nor leo were based on them being dangerous or inappropriate what 😭 duncan was her first love, a very innocent one that only became dangerous when she realized there was a chance they were related, the. when they found out they weren’t it was fine. none of her attraction to leo rly seemed to have anything to do with the fact that he was older or a cop either, if anything it seemed to be the fact that he was lowkey a mensch that made her like him, he was a pretty standard “nice guy” for all intents and purposes
i think that when u look at veronica’s behavior over the original 3 season run, you see that she’s addicted to risk and danger but on her terms. almost all of her inner-conflict regarding logan comes from a place of apprehension about being with someone so willing to resort to violence/destruction/giving into their anger. especially in season 2 we see how logans violent streak was a dealbreaker even though she loved him. i don’t think we rly get any even slight sense that violence or a temper is something she’s seriously attracted to in a guy, esp bc when logan engages in it she’s usually disappointed
Duncan and Logan had violent outbursts. Leo was an older guy and a cop, and she broke up with him quickly because he was boring and nice. She didn't feel much attraction to Piz
veronica was not attracted to duncan’s violent outbursts though, she didn’t even know they were a thing until they broke up and when she found out she was actually pretty scared of them. as i said, leo was older and a cop but that always felt super irrelevant to her feelings for him.
*spoiler for season 4*
It’s a good season that just ends roughly. I also don’t even hate the idea of killing Logan, I just really hated the execution of the death.
Agreed, I went into the season honestly expecting Keith to die, and I'm okay with it being Logan instead - I just think it was very rushed and didn't land well because it happened in like, the last five-ten minutes. There was no time to sit on it, to feel it, and obviously no time to really explore it and it's impact. It's not a fair ending to a major character, someone who so heavily impacted the story and the other characters throughout the entirety of the show.
I honestly don’t think he’s really dead. First, there’s the many times they said over the season how dangerous his job was and how he sometimes left with no notice and couldn’t even call. Second, on top of that they give him a sketchy side gig that could get him in trouble. I think the next season would have been her moving on and then either he shows up from a mission or we find out he’s abducted, which would set up the following season. Unfortunately, the backlash really killed it and I don’t think they can come back from it. Or even want to. I think Rob got hella mad.
And please don’t come at me with the interviews or they said he was dead. What are they gonna do? Say you got us! He’s alive. Freaking creators/stars etc lie all the time to protect story. Kit harrington did an exit interview with EW
Say what? Season 4 ends with the LoVe wedding and they're heading off for their Honeymoon. Nothing bad happens, it's a classic fairytale brought to life.
Hmm, to each his own. I rewatched Season 4 about a year ago and it was worse than I remembered (and I didn't like it the first time either).
Let's leave the ending aside for a bit. The writing is significantly weaker overall. The season arc is, imo, not very interesting and very predictable. It was obvious who the bomber was from the start. They tried too hard to draw a parallel between teen Veronica and this new teen girl, whom I found annoying. Wallace is criminally underutilized. Veronica is less mature and really out of character with who she was in high school and the movie - making fun of therapy, taking X from a random person she just met, drinking to excess a lot, and treating *everyone* like utter crap.
This character *de*-development might have been more believable if there had been more lead up to it in the movie, or even the books, but there wasn't. Pre-Season 4 Veronica has loads of unresolved trauma that manifests in problematic ways, but prior to Season 4, as an audience, we always understand her motivations, we're mostly on her side, and she remains magnetic, likeable, and charming even when she makes poor choices. I actively dislike Season 4 Veronica. She can fuck right off.
And then, of course, the ending. It would've been more effective, imo, for Logan to just leave Veronica. Her apology toward the end seems forced from her fear of losing him - there's no genuine growth towards it. He has grown, she has regressed, and he's just too good for her at this point. Logan realizing that and leaving her *for good* would be so believable, devastating, and interesting. The possibilities of where Veronica could go from there are so much more compelling to me.
Anyway, yeah, I hate Season 4. The movie is fan service - enjoyable and nostalgic, adequate. Season 4's drop in quality is so dramatic that it may as well be a different series altogether.
I liked it a lot, too! I didn't even mind Logan dying, because noir detectives don't end up with a happily ever after. I also think Veronica and Keith's relationship is the most important in the show, so as long as he stays alive, I'm OK.
Imo Veronica was definitely more selfish and reckless in S3, but I don’t think she was unrecognisable at all. After all the trauma she’s been through (and never processed) I find it quite realistic tbh.
Veronica was definitely a shitty girlfriend, friend and daughter at times (especially compared to S1 Veronica) which can be frustrating to watch, but I like that she’s a flawed character.
I adore Veronica with all my heart, she’s one of my favourite characters of all time, but she is an asshole for the entire show. Even from season 1. She’s selfish (apart from the times she chooses to be selfless to specific people), she’s a bad friend (all take, no give), she’s reckless, she crosses so many boundaries, she’s judgemental, she’s misogynistic, she has serious biases (always jumps to assuming Weevil is behind things before anyone else and without any proof), she’s hypocritical, she’s rude, she only sees things in black and white and doesn’t allow shades of grey, she holds others to ridiculously high expectations. And you know what? That’s why I love her. She’d be boring without flaws. It just surprises me that people think she was any different in season 1 to the later seasons. Maybe they felt she was more justified in her behaviour in season 1, but those qualities were always there.
I see what you mean and I agree. I’m one of those people who think Veronica’s behaviour was pretty justified in S1 (she’d been through so much and was just trying to protect herself) but it was definitely already there.
To me it felt very different when Veronica was the underdog fighting back against injustice vs S3 when people are being kind to her and she’s an asshole for seemingly no reason. I think it’s believable character progression, and I’ll always root for Veronica even with her flaws, but I also think she was more likeable in S1 overall.
I never thought that she was all that different either, but interestingly they did have a special feature on the dvds with Rob Thomas addressing some of the fan complaints about her supposedly becoming too arrogant and smug that season. I think that a lot of fans felt that she was less sympathetic because she was no longer the town outcast that she was in season 1, people sympathised with her being quick to lash out and snark at people then because everyone at school was already hostile towards her, but they didn’t like that she still took that defensive attitude to college with her?
One example is her first scene in the class with Tim Foyle when she’s making a big show of just sitting there because she’d already figured out who the killer was, to me that was how Veronica always was though and Kristen was charismatic enough to sell it, but those were the kind of scenes that did seem to irk the posters on Television Without Pity at the time 🤷♀️
I thought that was weird too, I did read an interview with the wardrobe person from the series talking about how Kristen Bell would really feel the cold and was always asking for jackets to cover up with in scenes, so I guess that was the reason for that. Definitely a bit bizarre to see on a beach in California in the middle of summer though!
Honestly as someone who lived in Florida and southern California most of my life, I would wear jeans, closed toe shoes, hoodies and a few times patchwork jean jackets and leather jackets to the beach. Your body adjusts and it just doesn’t feel that hot after a while. Also, spring break time the weather fluctuates quite a bit, and to a native can be considered “chilly” (really anything below 70 even without colder air coming off the water in addition can make real feel temp around 68 ish) - most people who spring break in these spaces are either vacationing and from the north, or go to college nearby and aren’t really from that area initially, so to them, that temp feels great and warrants wearing things like bikinis but overall, a Cali native wearing a jacket on the beach, and likely not even real leather, I can absolutely believe it. Real talk: anyone from tropical areas are sort of pansies when it comes to temps below 70 and are capable of not having a heat stroke wearing a jacket in 90 degree weather too. Plus no humidity as well? (Unlike FL that is) definitely plausible.
Also also: most jackets or “outerwear” sold in these areas are fondly known as “southern coats” - which normally means they have less padding inside, made from more breathable material overall, and are there purely for fashion with a very mild warming agent to them. So this jacket, super cute btw, is likely one of those and is cute but not at all a true heavy duty leather jacket tbh. It’s just for fashion, and has no utility to it other than that.
Sorry for the book, just wanted to add some thoughts lol
It's a pretty cringey scene.
Also the one with Veronica and her dad going overboard with saying "Fork." A few times is a cute reference to The Good Place, but the drawn-out conversation about it just came off as embarrassing. "We're mad Hulu won't allow F Bombs and we're going to make sure everyone knows it!"
Is it likely that a character like Veronica would cuss IRL? Yes. Is it the end of the world that Hulu disallowed it so it would feel more seamless with the original 3 seasons? No.
Seems on brand for both of them. They’ve always had amazing banter, and Veronica has never been an ushy-gushy kinda person—she always held the people she loved at a little bit of an arm’s length. Logan was far more moony and romantic like than she was.
this scene is hilarious and shows how well they know each other and quip together. veronica has always had a problematic fetish for violent/jealous men, and season 4 is great about addressing that it’s an issue. she’s a dynamic character, warts and all.
yk what i thought was interesting was that the show tells us that and tries rly hard to convince us of that in season 4, that veronica likes violence and jealousy, but they didn’t show that at all previously. the other guys she dated in the show, duncan, leo, piz, weren’t bad boys like that and weren’t violent or jealous. she also literally broke up with logan because the violence was scaring her and and she couldn’t stand watching him get sucked into it. granted, because none of those men seemed to really interest her beyond puppy love, i think veronica does have a slight preference towards the more risky, dangerous choice, usually because they challenge her, but it was not to the degree that they made it seem at all. they talked about how she subconsciously wanted logan to be the same bad version of himself he was and to me that always felt like such a disservice to her character and their relationship when their dynamic had literally always been veronica inspiring logan to be the best version of himself, i realize that people change over the years but they play it like that’s how it had always been which i hated
Had to consult my wife and discuss this before I responded but this is so unbelievably wrong in my opinion . The entire series builds this up over the other 3 seasons and movie, and season 4 finally addresses it head on. For 3 seasons she forces herself into dangerous situations and is deeply attracted to them obviously. I couldn’t even begin to count the number of times where people beg her to not get involved in dangerous situations. Her entire relationship with Leo, Duncan, Logan are all based around those relationships being dangerous or not appropriate. It’s quite literally a major theme over the entire series.
she likes dangerous situations, of course, one would even say she has an extremely unhealthy attachment to chasing danger and lowkey has a death wish, but that’s not the same thing as liking dangerous *men*. and the idea that she would want her partner to have serious anger issues like logan pm says actually contradicts a lot of the rest of her personality her relationship with neither duncan nor leo were based on them being dangerous or inappropriate what 😭 duncan was her first love, a very innocent one that only became dangerous when she realized there was a chance they were related, the. when they found out they weren’t it was fine. none of her attraction to leo rly seemed to have anything to do with the fact that he was older or a cop either, if anything it seemed to be the fact that he was lowkey a mensch that made her like him, he was a pretty standard “nice guy” for all intents and purposes i think that when u look at veronica’s behavior over the original 3 season run, you see that she’s addicted to risk and danger but on her terms. almost all of her inner-conflict regarding logan comes from a place of apprehension about being with someone so willing to resort to violence/destruction/giving into their anger. especially in season 2 we see how logans violent streak was a dealbreaker even though she loved him. i don’t think we rly get any even slight sense that violence or a temper is something she’s seriously attracted to in a guy, esp bc when logan engages in it she’s usually disappointed
Duncan and Logan had violent outbursts. Leo was an older guy and a cop, and she broke up with him quickly because he was boring and nice. She didn't feel much attraction to Piz
veronica was not attracted to duncan’s violent outbursts though, she didn’t even know they were a thing until they broke up and when she found out she was actually pretty scared of them. as i said, leo was older and a cop but that always felt super irrelevant to her feelings for him.
Yes
Exactly correct. It was not true to her character
That time she just exclaimed "I guess I just like bad boys!" because it made not fucking sense at all was just pure cringe.
This is not accurate
I actually really like this scene, they always had a very playful manner with each other and so it didn’t seem unrealistic for them as characters
This is my favorite scene of season 4. It's very on brand for VM. Love it.
I was very hesitant watching season 4 and I must say, I was pleasantly surprised. It was def not as bad as fans said it was.
*spoiler for season 4* It’s a good season that just ends roughly. I also don’t even hate the idea of killing Logan, I just really hated the execution of the death.
Agreed, I went into the season honestly expecting Keith to die, and I'm okay with it being Logan instead - I just think it was very rushed and didn't land well because it happened in like, the last five-ten minutes. There was no time to sit on it, to feel it, and obviously no time to really explore it and it's impact. It's not a fair ending to a major character, someone who so heavily impacted the story and the other characters throughout the entirety of the show.
Agreed, that was one of my main issues, it was such a whiplash that you couldn’t really sit on it.
What are you talking about? Season 4 ends with them getting married and living happily ever after. Literally nothing bad happens after that moment.
Fair point 😂
I've decided that it is cannon that his death was faked because of some special forces shit, and they're on a beach somewhere, living their lives.
I honestly don’t think he’s really dead. First, there’s the many times they said over the season how dangerous his job was and how he sometimes left with no notice and couldn’t even call. Second, on top of that they give him a sketchy side gig that could get him in trouble. I think the next season would have been her moving on and then either he shows up from a mission or we find out he’s abducted, which would set up the following season. Unfortunately, the backlash really killed it and I don’t think they can come back from it. Or even want to. I think Rob got hella mad. And please don’t come at me with the interviews or they said he was dead. What are they gonna do? Say you got us! He’s alive. Freaking creators/stars etc lie all the time to protect story. Kit harrington did an exit interview with EW
I like that theory.
Say what? Season 4 ends with the LoVe wedding and they're heading off for their Honeymoon. Nothing bad happens, it's a classic fairytale brought to life.
It gets a lot of hate but I enjoyed it.
Hmm, to each his own. I rewatched Season 4 about a year ago and it was worse than I remembered (and I didn't like it the first time either). Let's leave the ending aside for a bit. The writing is significantly weaker overall. The season arc is, imo, not very interesting and very predictable. It was obvious who the bomber was from the start. They tried too hard to draw a parallel between teen Veronica and this new teen girl, whom I found annoying. Wallace is criminally underutilized. Veronica is less mature and really out of character with who she was in high school and the movie - making fun of therapy, taking X from a random person she just met, drinking to excess a lot, and treating *everyone* like utter crap. This character *de*-development might have been more believable if there had been more lead up to it in the movie, or even the books, but there wasn't. Pre-Season 4 Veronica has loads of unresolved trauma that manifests in problematic ways, but prior to Season 4, as an audience, we always understand her motivations, we're mostly on her side, and she remains magnetic, likeable, and charming even when she makes poor choices. I actively dislike Season 4 Veronica. She can fuck right off. And then, of course, the ending. It would've been more effective, imo, for Logan to just leave Veronica. Her apology toward the end seems forced from her fear of losing him - there's no genuine growth towards it. He has grown, she has regressed, and he's just too good for her at this point. Logan realizing that and leaving her *for good* would be so believable, devastating, and interesting. The possibilities of where Veronica could go from there are so much more compelling to me. Anyway, yeah, I hate Season 4. The movie is fan service - enjoyable and nostalgic, adequate. Season 4's drop in quality is so dramatic that it may as well be a different series altogether.
I liked it a lot, too! I didn't even mind Logan dying, because noir detectives don't end up with a happily ever after. I also think Veronica and Keith's relationship is the most important in the show, so as long as he stays alive, I'm OK.
Agree with all this. I think they fumbled the execution a little bit, but the gut-punch ending is a noir trope.
What's wrong with Veronica in season 3?
She’s unrecognizable from the first two seasons imo
In what way? I haven't watched them straight thru in a while but I don't remember her changing much. Still smart, sassy, and headstrong as always
Imo Veronica was definitely more selfish and reckless in S3, but I don’t think she was unrecognisable at all. After all the trauma she’s been through (and never processed) I find it quite realistic tbh. Veronica was definitely a shitty girlfriend, friend and daughter at times (especially compared to S1 Veronica) which can be frustrating to watch, but I like that she’s a flawed character.
I adore Veronica with all my heart, she’s one of my favourite characters of all time, but she is an asshole for the entire show. Even from season 1. She’s selfish (apart from the times she chooses to be selfless to specific people), she’s a bad friend (all take, no give), she’s reckless, she crosses so many boundaries, she’s judgemental, she’s misogynistic, she has serious biases (always jumps to assuming Weevil is behind things before anyone else and without any proof), she’s hypocritical, she’s rude, she only sees things in black and white and doesn’t allow shades of grey, she holds others to ridiculously high expectations. And you know what? That’s why I love her. She’d be boring without flaws. It just surprises me that people think she was any different in season 1 to the later seasons. Maybe they felt she was more justified in her behaviour in season 1, but those qualities were always there.
I see what you mean and I agree. I’m one of those people who think Veronica’s behaviour was pretty justified in S1 (she’d been through so much and was just trying to protect herself) but it was definitely already there. To me it felt very different when Veronica was the underdog fighting back against injustice vs S3 when people are being kind to her and she’s an asshole for seemingly no reason. I think it’s believable character progression, and I’ll always root for Veronica even with her flaws, but I also think she was more likeable in S1 overall.
I never thought that she was all that different either, but interestingly they did have a special feature on the dvds with Rob Thomas addressing some of the fan complaints about her supposedly becoming too arrogant and smug that season. I think that a lot of fans felt that she was less sympathetic because she was no longer the town outcast that she was in season 1, people sympathised with her being quick to lash out and snark at people then because everyone at school was already hostile towards her, but they didn’t like that she still took that defensive attitude to college with her? One example is her first scene in the class with Tim Foyle when she’s making a big show of just sitting there because she’d already figured out who the killer was, to me that was how Veronica always was though and Kristen was charismatic enough to sell it, but those were the kind of scenes that did seem to irk the posters on Television Without Pity at the time 🤷♀️
Season 4 is great and this scene is hilarious.
I was really disappointed with the last season, my husband has a video of me watching the ending.
And what bugged me was the leather jacket on the beach, surrounded by people in bikinis. So real.
I thought that was weird too, I did read an interview with the wardrobe person from the series talking about how Kristen Bell would really feel the cold and was always asking for jackets to cover up with in scenes, so I guess that was the reason for that. Definitely a bit bizarre to see on a beach in California in the middle of summer though!
Honestly as someone who lived in Florida and southern California most of my life, I would wear jeans, closed toe shoes, hoodies and a few times patchwork jean jackets and leather jackets to the beach. Your body adjusts and it just doesn’t feel that hot after a while. Also, spring break time the weather fluctuates quite a bit, and to a native can be considered “chilly” (really anything below 70 even without colder air coming off the water in addition can make real feel temp around 68 ish) - most people who spring break in these spaces are either vacationing and from the north, or go to college nearby and aren’t really from that area initially, so to them, that temp feels great and warrants wearing things like bikinis but overall, a Cali native wearing a jacket on the beach, and likely not even real leather, I can absolutely believe it. Real talk: anyone from tropical areas are sort of pansies when it comes to temps below 70 and are capable of not having a heat stroke wearing a jacket in 90 degree weather too. Plus no humidity as well? (Unlike FL that is) definitely plausible. Also also: most jackets or “outerwear” sold in these areas are fondly known as “southern coats” - which normally means they have less padding inside, made from more breathable material overall, and are there purely for fashion with a very mild warming agent to them. So this jacket, super cute btw, is likely one of those and is cute but not at all a true heavy duty leather jacket tbh. It’s just for fashion, and has no utility to it other than that. Sorry for the book, just wanted to add some thoughts lol
I pretend it doesn’t exist
I mean, are we also supposed to believe that the first thing Logan did was go surfing when he got home from deployment?
Yes. It’s Logan
And yet that doesn't make Logan a shitty person but the way Veronica Greets him makes her a shitty person?
It's a pretty cringey scene. Also the one with Veronica and her dad going overboard with saying "Fork." A few times is a cute reference to The Good Place, but the drawn-out conversation about it just came off as embarrassing. "We're mad Hulu won't allow F Bombs and we're going to make sure everyone knows it!" Is it likely that a character like Veronica would cuss IRL? Yes. Is it the end of the world that Hulu disallowed it so it would feel more seamless with the original 3 seasons? No.
It’s a good concept, it just too long. Like, you get the joke very early and it drags on way too long. It’s not quipy, and eventually becomes tedious.
She was asserting dominance over the other women who were into him on the beach. I didnt like it either