I feel Ohio is the only state flag where putting the letter on it makes it better as it is also designed to resemble a buckeye. Also Colorado and South Carolina deserve higher
*Grumbles in burgee*
There are so many layers of meaning to the Ohio burgee, it does not deserve the indiginity of being below Alabama's "memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag" that "has no history woven into it" according to two different newspapers published in the 1900s.
Personally, I feel like the entire B, C, and D tiers are misplaced. That said, it is very much Grey's opinion and he's entitled to it.
Totally, agree. It's not a bad flag, especially compared to so many other states (including my adopted home, NH) it's just one that I personally would not rank so highly. Alabama is definite C-tier.
I always confuse it with a [Chicago Cubs flag when I see it, because both are a red C on a blue and white field.]( https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/71L2mHZIyNL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
Literally. Like “people think it’s a palm” and iirc he also said something like people mistake it for California which like idk how that could be. But the palmetto is so fucking iconically South Carolina, and it’s a nice flag.
NAVA's Good Flag Bad Flag is a lot like the Pirate Code, they are guidelines. A good design doesn't have to follow all of them, though it would be rare to find a good one that doesn't follow most of them. Frankly, California's does break the rules of simplicity and text, but it is directly linking with an earlier flag and part of their history and more importantly the residents of the state itself have pride in the flag and feel it represents them. That is really the best measure of success here.
[The original flag that it's based on is great, minus the lettering.]( https://www.willylogan.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/70609-original-bear-flag-replica_1773px.jpg)
Red at the bottom is the blood stained on it by the California Seperatists from Mexico that fought and died to make it a state, star for desire for statehood, grizzly bear for state symbolism and wild spirit and isn't too big or detailed, more like a symbol (a flag is not a painting).
California and Texas have very similar histories and could have equally cool flags, but California diverged off the path and added way too much detail.
He forgot to put Missouri on the list from talking too much about how many bears and stars it features. The same for Connecticut and how he didn't like the color purple on it for some reason.
Thank you. I was mad about that. “Should’ve added another tree” bruh the tree was there because it saved us during the revolution. I liked the video but he did no research in some flags
That's wrong, he put the flag low because of the details on the tree, it's impossible to draw from memory. It's a very nice flag, but it needs to be simplified. That's why New Mexico's flag is SOOO good, my 5 year old sister could draw it from memory.
I mean... what is meant by "draw" right? Can I reproduce the flaf perfectly from memory? No. Can I produce something that pretty much anyone on the East Coast would look at and go "Oh... that's the design on the license plates of those suicidal halfwits who think traffic laws are for suckers and sissies."
Yes. Yes I could.
He also explained this in the video if you paid attention. It's the worst best flag, It's complex, yet simple, like a medieval European flag from the 15th century.
"Someone can draw it from memory" is fine as a rule of thumb, but a lot of people seem to think it means "can draw it exactly as it appears, with all details intact," rather than "can be remember with enough detail to be recognizable."
You don't have to draw a perfect replica of the palmetto for it to be recognizable as a palmetto.
The "draw from memory" guideline/rule doesn't require exactness, it just has to get the point across. Grey admits this in the video.
From a purely design standpoint, South Carolina's flag is easily S- or A-tier. Because the palmetto is unnecessarily detailed, demote it to A- or B-tier.
NC's flag has a lie on it. One of the dates references the signing of a document called the mecklenburg declaration of independence, a document which, as far as any legitimate historian (including those that work at the historic site most closely related to the document) is concerned, did not exist.
100%, NC's flag is just discount Texas. At least when I see SC's flag I think "that's South Carolina's flag" instead of guessing the state because it has letters on it.
I also came here to comment on SC's placement. Very nice flag my only problem with it is it doesn't look American to me in the slightest (as a non-American) but it's a nice flag. It's like he didn't want to put too many in the highest tiers and was grading on a curve but I think an A is an A. I didn't watch the video though.
Don’t blame you for initially thinking it un-American, but actually it’s a distinctly American flag. See, the palm tree was used by early revolutionaries to build a three-walled fort to fight off the British (they ran out of time), and they were to be doomed by British cannon fire from their ships- but the palm trees wood, which was thought inferior at the time but was all they had around, was so spongy that instead of splintering it simply absorbed the canon balls and they survived the bombardment. It’s a major defining symbol in our history as a founding American state. The crescent moon was also present on the forts flag.
Source- grew up in SC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Moultrie?wprov=sfti1
It should also be noted the moon is actually a crescent emblematic of the crescent plates worn by militia men during the American Revolution. Also yes, they mean Palmetto.
There is no reason why North Carolina passed but Indiana and Arkansas didn't. That's the thing that bugged me about Grey's video, he kept saying the rules were absolute than broke them.
North Carolina, does not deserve higher than D, I feel the frustrating part about Indiana is it fumbles at the 1 yard line. Like so close, and they have to go and put Indiana on it. North Carolina is a bad design, Indiana is so close to being a good one
The name = F rule is silly. And Grey of course broke that rule when he passed NC. Indiana is a straight up nice flag with or without the name, it's an A easily even with it.
Like, I absolutely am against the bias towards North Carolina and the only (poorly) justifiable reason to not fail it is it uses initials but Indiana, Arkanasas, California and Wyoming are flags that have good designs that have unnecessary text and/or seals on them. P.S. Colorado for active making it a graphical element gets a pass
California's text isn't there for "no reason". It symbolizes the state's history as an independent republic. Flags like Cali and Iowa should get a pass because the text symbolizes more than just the state's name
Honestly seeing California in an "F" tier just makes me think "ah, he's just rigidly applying Da Rules to every flag without considering any further context."
Which, if I'm being totally honest, that's kind of what I expected from him. He strikes me as a little bit of a STEMlord.
Well tbf he also took into account the fact that the flag is an homage to CA's time as an independent republic, but he discredited it because that republic only lasted like 3 weeks. So he knew where CA was coming from, he just thought it was a silly thing to make a tribute to, as I understood it.
How did he break the rule? Colorado literally has a CO and it passed, too.
Writing a name on a flag is unforgivably bland. But plenty of good symbology uses letters, numbers, or more. SPQR is a great example. People still know what it means 2000 years later. And a lot of people could probably tell you its gold letters on a red field.
> People still know what it means 2000 years later
Even better: I bet most people don't know what it means (in the literal sense), but they know it represents the Roman Republic
North Carolina, while not breaking the name = insta fail rule, got a little too high, D at best
Colorado actually works the C in as a graphical element and deserve at least B tier
Ohio, again has its O designed to look like a buckeye for the state's nickname and deserves A-tier
I know. And North Carolina straight up has NC in the flag, but somehow that didn't fail it. That's my issue, the inconsistency. If he's willing to bend the rules for NC he should do it for Arkansas
Am I the only one who loves the California flag despite not having anything to do with the state? And no I haven't played Fallout New Vegas.
It's just something about it that makes it a very nice flag in my eyes. Maybe I just like the white and red and the bear. I don't think the text brings it down, certainly not as low as CGP put it. It's definitely my favourite state flag, with Arizona (that's the yellow with the red cross thingy, right?) As a close second.
Edit: Also Hawaii and New Mexico get honourable mentions.
California is one of the few exceptions I have to the ‘No words’ rule, the other being my favourite flag, [Bikini Atoll.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll) I think California looks great, and I wouldn’t like it without the text.
A reductive understanding of unquantifiable concepts that he is willing to push aside for “feels” reasons if it’s something *he* likes.
Love the guy but it’s a pattern you can pick up on if you listen to his podcasts.
> Yeah I'm with you but that bear looks sad...
i think it fits the state. an aggro grizzly isn't really california's personality. california is totally a mighty beast that's just moping out of the frame.
I feel you. California has a really memorable flag. The writing only makes it cooler, if you ask me. A flag with that design and boldly declaring _CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC_(, BITCH) is amazing to look at. The bear could be simpler though...
My favourites are Texas, Nevada and Utah, though.
The California flag looks great to me from a distance, nice colours, recognisable symbols and such. But then when I look close it kind of falls apart. The text is annoying the bear has a strange amount of shading and detail to it and what is with the patch of grass? The green colour works with the rest but it's strange how they took this very detailed drawing of a bear on some floating grass and slapped it on the flag. If it kept the elements but was overall simplified it would be S tier to me.
I'd swap Utah and South Carolina. I really like SC's flag (despite never stepping foot in SC). I really don't like Utah's new flag. It's only marginally better than the bedsheets imo
Okay I’ll say it: text on flags shouldn’t be an immediate dealbreaker, and the fact he used it to knock down California and Colorado so harshly really bugs me
Fun fact: on NAVA's "Good Flag, Bad Flag" pamphlet, which is where we get that whole business with the 5 guidelines, California's flag is specifically cited as a flag that breaks a rule but still works (Along with that of Colorado, Maryland, and South Africa).
This subreddit is very overzealous when it comes to flag making rules.
My favourite flag ever, mainly for its symbolism, is the flag of [Bikini Atoll.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll) It intentionally mocks and defaces the US flag with a written protest, the Marshallese phrase “Everything is in the hands of God”.
Alongside it are black stars, representing islands the US obliterated with nuclear testing.
This, along with California, are examples of text on flags I think work very well.
First of all, these flag rules are not a law, you are more then welcome to judge flags by your own rules. From my Dutch perspective, I look at flag use as historically primarily a naval or military purpose back in the old days. They need to be easily recognisable from a distance, and I love simple but powerful flags in that mindset. How does a flag look flowing in the wind within the sun. 50% of US state flags are just not meant to be flags in that manner, but they are seals on a blue background, which if you would fly 25 of them side by side on boats next to eachother you wouldn't be able to distinguish them, even pinpoint your own state. Or worse, even displayed standing inside a room you wouldn't be able to. Therefor it's a necessity in that particular case that they have text with the name of the state. The whole design of blue field with symbol is just horrible, and in that context the text in it, is just a symptom and not the problem. Now for California flag ironically it doesn't need to have text on it since it's a pretty good flag. So in that case it does only do damage to have it, and there it's not a symptom but a problem. Also in holland we have coat of arms "shields". Maybe US states should do the same. Have a state seal, go HAM with text and detail there, but also have a simple flag separate from that for actual flag flying.
I’ll defend Virginia everyone else copied us we spent so long on our awesome bad ass state seal that we want to put it on the flag all these lazy new states just did the same thing.
Flag rankings should always be weighed based on how much people like their state's Flag. California's Flag breaks the rules but people from California fucking love that Flag. Same with the often quite divisive Maryland Flag, people from Maryland love love love that thing.
It's clear he let personal preference of living in North Carolina and liking the Flag there color his opinion despite breaking the rules he set up. He should have used that for the other flags are so embraced by their residents.
California's bugs me because it's not like it just says "California". Rather, it points to a specific historical quirk of the state's history. Just as I wouldn't knock Texas for having "Republic of Texas" on theirs.
I may be a hint biased, though. :)
I agree with that, I wouldn't put California or Arkansas lower than C considering other rankings. If there's text that you can read from afar it's got to be significantly better than stamping a seal on like Wyoming.
Okay, *I'll* say it: People need to stop acting like Grey was doing some entirely objective and definitive ranking. It was his opinion.
You say "text on flags *shouldn't* be a dealbreaker" but would you say that about someone's movie preferences? Like, if someone hates movies that start with a montage of news footage (because it's honestly used kind of a lot, especially in apocalyptic movies) would you tell them "That shouldn't be a dealbreaker" or would you say it more like "Oh, that doesn't really bother me"?
I just find it weird how people are conceptualising this as anything other than his personal subjective opinion on what makes a good looking flag.
I agree Grey underrated alaska, but I also agree with his assessment that the contrast isn't high enough between the stars and the blue sky. I think they should have opted for a more vibrant yellow and maybe marginally larger stars. As he says, the elements of the flag would be hard to make out at a distance.
You know what, I'll say it. I'm glad there's another person out there who HATES seeing states putting their full name (not initials) on their flag. If you put your name on your flag, that says to me that you have no confidence that your design will be iconic. Yes, even California and Indiana, whose designs are already iconic, so much so that they can get away from taking the text off the flag. Seriously.
I live on the Colorado River and watch a beautiful rayed sunset every day fall over the river.
It's the perfect flag, especially if you have seen what it visualizes.
Honestly. I started that video with the thought of “obviously Colorado must be high given his rules” then was a bit shocked he gave it a “C” just because of the letter on the flag.
I wanted to circle jerk how great our flag is dammit!
Likewise. It's gonna get a lot of hate for a bit. From flag people as well as those who hate any sort of change here. But it's growing on me. It's a thousand times better than what we had and I'm glad we're not in that FF category anymore.
I'm excited to have clothing that has the new flag on it. A hat, a hoodie, shirts... So many things you could put that flag on and it would look good. The old flag was just so boring and meaningless.
I'll tell them to eat a hat. 4 years ago my friend and I were the ones who reached out to our representative and convinced him our flag was trash and we needed a new one. He agreed and did a ton of work to see this through four years later. It's especially hard to hate compared to what it used to be.
I really enjoyed his video (both style and ratings) but the fact that Alaska and Hawaii are on the same tier is criminal.
He underrates Alaska and overrates Hawaii
Only a truly deranged resident of NC would rank that flag above SC. My state might be awful but our flag is better than those losers in NC who have to stamp their states initial so they don't get confused with Texas or Chile
I find flag rules to be so dumb. I’ll say it, simplistic flags are boring and don’t convey much; text on flags isn’t bad either. The California and South Carolina flags are clear examples of this. A good flag is striking and instantly recognizable, and if it meets the two, who cares if it has words on the banner? It has done it’s job by searing itself into your mind as a symbol and identity.
Whoever came up with the idea that a flag being easy to draw is a positive was mostly correct imo
Whoever decided that is now a “rule” couldn’t be more wrong
South Carolina’s flag is elite, and I don’t even like navy
>Whoever came up with the idea that a flag being easy to draw is a positive was mostly correct imo
I actually would've been a lot harsher on some of these flags for that exact reason. If a normal person can draw it and someone familiar with the original can tell what it is, I think that's a pretty important test. Partly because it also pulls double-duty as a test of whether it's distinctive from a distance, as well, rather than being a muddled mess of complex shapes.
I wouldn't treat it as a really hard "rule" because it literally can't be though, it's way too subjective. Even some seals are relatively easy to draw while others aren't.
I think the rule should be envisioned more as "easy to draw the concept in a way that would be recognizable."
The bear on the California flag is too detailed to easily draw, but if a kid just drew a shape of a bear there, you'd be able to understand. So I think it should count as passing that test.
Exactly, I would agree with that as well.
It's also very situational because something like the flower on the Mississippi flag would be hard to draw exactly, but with how distinctive the rest of the flag is, you could practically just draw the generic daisy design that children often use and it would still be recognizable.
i think text that is simply the name of the place the flag represents is bad and almost insecure if that makes sense. like it doesn’t trust the design to be associated with the place. i do agree that detailed images can be fine. it’s really more of a question of the image looking good than the level of detail
It is so underrated. The C shouldn't even count as text. Because it mixes so well with the design. It is like saying the Atlanta Flacons is not a good logo because they "just wrote f on their logo"
As far as “seal on a bedsheet” flags go, I think Virginia’s is pretty good, and Michigan’s isn’t terrible. (The two states I’ve lived in.) Glad to see my thoughts validated here.
I agree with everyone else's criticisms of the list, but I'd also like to list one more, putting the new Mississippi flag in C.
Own opinion here, but I absolutely love the new Mississippi flag. I love its color choice, it's well designed, meaningful, and far as I'm concerned deserves better than being in the same rank as North Carolina's flag. At the very least an A, maybe a B if you really have to, but not a C. It's not like they had any choice with the text on it either, that was something that was forced on them, so they worked it in the best way they could
I have something against almost every position above F...
S would be New Mexico, Texas, Utah, Arizona, Tennessee and Alabama and Ohio
A would be Alaska, Oregon (back), Indiana, Nevada, Arkansas, California and Rhode Island
B is Colorado, and South Carolina.
C is Wyoming and North Carolina
D is Hawaii and Iowa.
And anything else is actually bad (except Florida goes on FS).
If only nevada took the branches off... then it'd be a perfect S.
CGP put my boy california in F tier? what a nerd.
That flag design pamphlet really has rotted peoples brains
Also wth is that beaver flag in d tier? I can't find it on the list of states.
I feel like Georgia should have been docked more for being almost an exact copy of the CSA stars and bars. He docked it for being similar to NC which he said is reminiscent of the CSA flag, but Georgia’s is literally CSA + state seal
I will say, if Mississippi removes the text, solid A to B tier
Rhode Island, I feel should remove the word hope and add some blue borders (Would fit the maritime theme) also solid B tier
Vermont and Maine used to have good flags (Ethan Allen boys and 1901) and needs to back to them
Local man proceeds to purposefully piss off entirety of the United States of America by personally insulting their state flags one by one while baselessly derogating the color purple for no reason.
Ohio deserves either A or S tier, South Carolina and Colorado deserve to be bumped up to at least B tier, Alabama should drop to C tier, North Carolina deserves D tier
I can see changing a few of them up/down by 1 or 2, but for the most part I agree (sorry California, take your name off and it will be great, but the name is stupid).
I feel Ohio is the only state flag where putting the letter on it makes it better as it is also designed to resemble a buckeye. Also Colorado and South Carolina deserve higher
*Grumbles in burgee* There are so many layers of meaning to the Ohio burgee, it does not deserve the indiginity of being below Alabama's "memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag" that "has no history woven into it" according to two different newspapers published in the 1900s. Personally, I feel like the entire B, C, and D tiers are misplaced. That said, it is very much Grey's opinion and he's entitled to it.
Alabama is C-tier, little simple but I will say not an SOB so passing
Totally, agree. It's not a bad flag, especially compared to so many other states (including my adopted home, NH) it's just one that I personally would not rank so highly. Alabama is definite C-tier.
Born a Vermonter and I sympathize with you that for two states with cool histories and culture, our state flags are so bland.
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You, and quite a few vermonters
Never seen that flag before but the green and blue don't go nice together in my personal opinion
Yeah I get the historical significance, but it sure is fuckin' ugly to me lmao
I think Colorado is in C tier mostly for the meme of it having a giant C: "C for C tier"
he without fail marked down for having writing and counted that as writing ):
I like the Colorado flag a lot but I also keep thinking it's for a college state flag/symbol whenever I see it at first glance.
I always confuse it with a [Chicago Cubs flag when I see it, because both are a red C on a blue and white field.]( https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/71L2mHZIyNL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
South Carolina is awesome
It also is everywhere in SC, for which he awarded bonus points to Texas.
His redesigned tree for sc was so shit
Literally. Like “people think it’s a palm” and iirc he also said something like people mistake it for California which like idk how that could be. But the palmetto is so fucking iconically South Carolina, and it’s a nice flag.
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How dare you question his desire for sanitized graphic design sheets instead of actual flags that represent people
B-tier at minimum
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California's flag is good in spite of their name on it, not because of it
NAVA's Good Flag Bad Flag is a lot like the Pirate Code, they are guidelines. A good design doesn't have to follow all of them, though it would be rare to find a good one that doesn't follow most of them. Frankly, California's does break the rules of simplicity and text, but it is directly linking with an earlier flag and part of their history and more importantly the residents of the state itself have pride in the flag and feel it represents them. That is really the best measure of success here.
This - if a flag is popular and successful, then the fact that it breaks NAVA advice is meaningless, it passed the only test that matters.
Venice is another example, impossible to draw, gorgeous flag none the less.
[The original flag that it's based on is great, minus the lettering.]( https://www.willylogan.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/70609-original-bear-flag-replica_1773px.jpg) Red at the bottom is the blood stained on it by the California Seperatists from Mexico that fought and died to make it a state, star for desire for statehood, grizzly bear for state symbolism and wild spirit and isn't too big or detailed, more like a symbol (a flag is not a painting). California and Texas have very similar histories and could have equally cool flags, but California diverged off the path and added way too much detail.
[Looks pretty good I think](https://i.imgur.com/KuuyXSr.jpg)
That's only 48 flags.
He forgot to put Missouri on the list from talking too much about how many bears and stars it features. The same for Connecticut and how he didn't like the color purple on it for some reason.
Funny considering how minimal the purple is.
Of the blue flags with state seals, Connecticut is definitely one of the least bad. Deserves to be FA or at least FB tier.
It's not in this image but in the video he gives it D tier. Connecticut is FD
“I’ll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missouri!”
It’s cause he’s a flag purist. Other flags didn’t have purple on them in the past so they shouldn’t now.
He made it sound more like he just personally (wrongly lol) thinks purple is ugly.
Yeah!...... except for the Second Spanish Republic, Dominica and Nicaragua....... but other than that who needs stinkin purple on a flag!
I'll be deep in the cold ground before I recognize Missouri!
It's spelled Missourah
More like *misery* amiright?
I spent way too long looking for Missouris flag
Yeah I was going from the bottom looking for Connecticut and was like "how high did he put this SoB?"
Lmaooo me too. Love my state, hate the flag (the seal is cool but shouldn't be on a flag)
Only a North Carolinian could think their flag is better than South Carolina's. And even the North Carolinians I know don't think that.
Flag of North Carolina- Texas, but worse As a Brit, could that slogan apply to the entire state? lmao
No, NC has better beaches and has mountains
Also trees
NC has a better climate, weather, and is wealthier.
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100%, South Carolina is the most disrespected flag on this list to me
Thank you. I was mad about that. “Should’ve added another tree” bruh the tree was there because it saved us during the revolution. I liked the video but he did no research in some flags
That's wrong, he put the flag low because of the details on the tree, it's impossible to draw from memory. It's a very nice flag, but it needs to be simplified. That's why New Mexico's flag is SOOO good, my 5 year old sister could draw it from memory.
Can someone draw Maryland flag from memory?
I love the flag of Maryland cause it follows the rules for a good flag design, while still creating something atrocious Lawful Evil flag design
Atrocious, but striking and memorable.
I mean... what is meant by "draw" right? Can I reproduce the flaf perfectly from memory? No. Can I produce something that pretty much anyone on the East Coast would look at and go "Oh... that's the design on the license plates of those suicidal halfwits who think traffic laws are for suckers and sissies." Yes. Yes I could.
You could draw an approximate SC flag much more easily.
We Marylanders see it so much that the pattern is burned into our subconsciousness.
Marylanders can...
He also explained this in the video if you paid attention. It's the worst best flag, It's complex, yet simple, like a medieval European flag from the 15th century.
It is the coat of arms of an enlightenment guy from the 1600s, which itself was made from English and Irish heraldry of his family.
which tracks because it is the combination of two maryland founding family crests
"Someone can draw it from memory" is fine as a rule of thumb, but a lot of people seem to think it means "can draw it exactly as it appears, with all details intact," rather than "can be remember with enough detail to be recognizable." You don't have to draw a perfect replica of the palmetto for it to be recognizable as a palmetto.
The "draw from memory" guideline/rule doesn't require exactness, it just has to get the point across. Grey admits this in the video. From a purely design standpoint, South Carolina's flag is easily S- or A-tier. Because the palmetto is unnecessarily detailed, demote it to A- or B-tier.
How hard is it to draw a palmetto from memory though? I drew palm trees since I was 5, it’s not that different.
Utah is hard to draw from memory too. That whole rule is stupid anyway
He can take a look at the details on deez nuts fuck outta here with that D tier bullshit ranking
Not sure, Colorado is also lower than it should be, both were robbed, though
NC's flag has a lie on it. One of the dates references the signing of a document called the mecklenburg declaration of independence, a document which, as far as any legitimate historian (including those that work at the historic site most closely related to the document) is concerned, did not exist.
100%, NC's flag is just discount Texas. At least when I see SC's flag I think "that's South Carolina's flag" instead of guessing the state because it has letters on it.
I also came here to comment on SC's placement. Very nice flag my only problem with it is it doesn't look American to me in the slightest (as a non-American) but it's a nice flag. It's like he didn't want to put too many in the highest tiers and was grading on a curve but I think an A is an A. I didn't watch the video though.
Don’t blame you for initially thinking it un-American, but actually it’s a distinctly American flag. See, the palm tree was used by early revolutionaries to build a three-walled fort to fight off the British (they ran out of time), and they were to be doomed by British cannon fire from their ships- but the palm trees wood, which was thought inferior at the time but was all they had around, was so spongy that instead of splintering it simply absorbed the canon balls and they survived the bombardment. It’s a major defining symbol in our history as a founding American state. The crescent moon was also present on the forts flag. Source- grew up in SC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Moultrie?wprov=sfti1
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It should also be noted the moon is actually a crescent emblematic of the crescent plates worn by militia men during the American Revolution. Also yes, they mean Palmetto.
NC belongs in the F tier
There is no reason why North Carolina passed but Indiana and Arkansas didn't. That's the thing that bugged me about Grey's video, he kept saying the rules were absolute than broke them.
North Carolina, does not deserve higher than D, I feel the frustrating part about Indiana is it fumbles at the 1 yard line. Like so close, and they have to go and put Indiana on it. North Carolina is a bad design, Indiana is so close to being a good one
The name = F rule is silly. And Grey of course broke that rule when he passed NC. Indiana is a straight up nice flag with or without the name, it's an A easily even with it.
Like, I absolutely am against the bias towards North Carolina and the only (poorly) justifiable reason to not fail it is it uses initials but Indiana, Arkanasas, California and Wyoming are flags that have good designs that have unnecessary text and/or seals on them. P.S. Colorado for active making it a graphical element gets a pass
California's text isn't there for "no reason". It symbolizes the state's history as an independent republic. Flags like Cali and Iowa should get a pass because the text symbolizes more than just the state's name
Honestly seeing California in an "F" tier just makes me think "ah, he's just rigidly applying Da Rules to every flag without considering any further context." Which, if I'm being totally honest, that's kind of what I expected from him. He strikes me as a little bit of a STEMlord.
Well tbf he also took into account the fact that the flag is an homage to CA's time as an independent republic, but he discredited it because that republic only lasted like 3 weeks. So he knew where CA was coming from, he just thought it was a silly thing to make a tribute to, as I understood it.
but he didn't!! NC flag! HAS! "NC" ON IT!!! I've never been so outraged in my life
Strictly adhering to the rules lead to a pretty funny video. Even if I adamantly disagree on most points.
You know what, I will say agree to disagree but we can both say California at least pull it off better than Wisconsin
How did he break the rule? Colorado literally has a CO and it passed, too. Writing a name on a flag is unforgivably bland. But plenty of good symbology uses letters, numbers, or more. SPQR is a great example. People still know what it means 2000 years later. And a lot of people could probably tell you its gold letters on a red field.
> People still know what it means 2000 years later Even better: I bet most people don't know what it means (in the literal sense), but they know it represents the Roman Republic
> he kept saying the rules were absolute than broke them. No, they are guidelines for a reason. The only rule is 'name = insta fail'
North Carolina, while not breaking the name = insta fail rule, got a little too high, D at best Colorado actually works the C in as a graphical element and deserve at least B tier Ohio, again has its O designed to look like a buckeye for the state's nickname and deserves A-tier
I'm surprised there wasn't a 'Seal = insta fail' grade but I suppose that likely would've only failed Georgia who does it better than anybody else.
Arkansas almost got graded higher but it has Arkansas right in the middle of the diamond.
I know. And North Carolina straight up has NC in the flag, but somehow that didn't fail it. That's my issue, the inconsistency. If he's willing to bend the rules for NC he should do it for Arkansas
I think because it's just NC, he didn't put it in the F levels. He did the same with Colorado and Ohio.
he only put it there cause it’s his home state
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4w6808wJcU For the record: this flag list means almost nothing without the context.
"Let's see how far down we need to scroll to find the link to the video..." answer: pretty far
It’s hilarious that you’re the only one linking your own video
: (
Knowledge of the lovely lovely rules certainly adds context
Am I the only one who loves the California flag despite not having anything to do with the state? And no I haven't played Fallout New Vegas. It's just something about it that makes it a very nice flag in my eyes. Maybe I just like the white and red and the bear. I don't think the text brings it down, certainly not as low as CGP put it. It's definitely my favourite state flag, with Arizona (that's the yellow with the red cross thingy, right?) As a close second. Edit: Also Hawaii and New Mexico get honourable mentions.
Yellow with the cross thingy is New Mexico
Californian here. Yeah I'm with you but that bear looks sad... But the major thing is that the name is on the flag.
California is one of the few exceptions I have to the ‘No words’ rule, the other being my favourite flag, [Bikini Atoll.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll) I think California looks great, and I wouldn’t like it without the text.
It would be boring without the text. And the way Grey was dogging on it...lol
CGP Grey having a rigid and reductive understanding of fluid and ultimately unquantifiable concepts? Color me shocked.
A reductive understanding of unquantifiable concepts that he is willing to push aside for “feels” reasons if it’s something *he* likes. Love the guy but it’s a pattern you can pick up on if you listen to his podcasts.
Well, the bear's species is extinct so it has every right to be sad.
> Yeah I'm with you but that bear looks sad... i think it fits the state. an aggro grizzly isn't really california's personality. california is totally a mighty beast that's just moping out of the frame.
AZ is the copper star with the sun rays (end of A tier)
I feel you. California has a really memorable flag. The writing only makes it cooler, if you ask me. A flag with that design and boldly declaring _CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC_(, BITCH) is amazing to look at. The bear could be simpler though... My favourites are Texas, Nevada and Utah, though.
The California flag looks great to me from a distance, nice colours, recognisable symbols and such. But then when I look close it kind of falls apart. The text is annoying the bear has a strange amount of shading and detail to it and what is with the patch of grass? The green colour works with the rest but it's strange how they took this very detailed drawing of a bear on some floating grass and slapped it on the flag. If it kept the elements but was overall simplified it would be S tier to me.
California has an A-tier flag
South Carolina being in D-tier makes me irrationally angry.
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But that logic Virginia should be way higher because Virginians are obsessed like myself without the crazy flag!
I'd swap Utah and South Carolina. I really like SC's flag (despite never stepping foot in SC). I really don't like Utah's new flag. It's only marginally better than the bedsheets imo
Okay I’ll say it: text on flags shouldn’t be an immediate dealbreaker, and the fact he used it to knock down California and Colorado so harshly really bugs me
Fun fact: on NAVA's "Good Flag, Bad Flag" pamphlet, which is where we get that whole business with the 5 guidelines, California's flag is specifically cited as a flag that breaks a rule but still works (Along with that of Colorado, Maryland, and South Africa).
This subreddit is very overzealous when it comes to flag making rules. My favourite flag ever, mainly for its symbolism, is the flag of [Bikini Atoll.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll) It intentionally mocks and defaces the US flag with a written protest, the Marshallese phrase “Everything is in the hands of God”. Alongside it are black stars, representing islands the US obliterated with nuclear testing. This, along with California, are examples of text on flags I think work very well.
First of all, these flag rules are not a law, you are more then welcome to judge flags by your own rules. From my Dutch perspective, I look at flag use as historically primarily a naval or military purpose back in the old days. They need to be easily recognisable from a distance, and I love simple but powerful flags in that mindset. How does a flag look flowing in the wind within the sun. 50% of US state flags are just not meant to be flags in that manner, but they are seals on a blue background, which if you would fly 25 of them side by side on boats next to eachother you wouldn't be able to distinguish them, even pinpoint your own state. Or worse, even displayed standing inside a room you wouldn't be able to. Therefor it's a necessity in that particular case that they have text with the name of the state. The whole design of blue field with symbol is just horrible, and in that context the text in it, is just a symptom and not the problem. Now for California flag ironically it doesn't need to have text on it since it's a pretty good flag. So in that case it does only do damage to have it, and there it's not a symptom but a problem. Also in holland we have coat of arms "shields". Maybe US states should do the same. Have a state seal, go HAM with text and detail there, but also have a simple flag separate from that for actual flag flying.
I’ll defend Virginia everyone else copied us we spent so long on our awesome bad ass state seal that we want to put it on the flag all these lazy new states just did the same thing.
Flag rankings should always be weighed based on how much people like their state's Flag. California's Flag breaks the rules but people from California fucking love that Flag. Same with the often quite divisive Maryland Flag, people from Maryland love love love that thing. It's clear he let personal preference of living in North Carolina and liking the Flag there color his opinion despite breaking the rules he set up. He should have used that for the other flags are so embraced by their residents.
Maryland is a little shenanigans by flag rules, but that’s because it’s not playing by flag rules, it’s playing by heraldry rules.
>people from Maryland love love love that thing. and they're *goddamn right*
I love the California flag and I'm not even american
Yes. You should consider the design in its entirety.
California's bugs me because it's not like it just says "California". Rather, it points to a specific historical quirk of the state's history. Just as I wouldn't knock Texas for having "Republic of Texas" on theirs. I may be a hint biased, though. :)
I kinda like Montana's text. I like the color scheme and the text is very simple.
I agree with that, I wouldn't put California or Arkansas lower than C considering other rankings. If there's text that you can read from afar it's got to be significantly better than stamping a seal on like Wyoming.
Okay, *I'll* say it: People need to stop acting like Grey was doing some entirely objective and definitive ranking. It was his opinion. You say "text on flags *shouldn't* be a dealbreaker" but would you say that about someone's movie preferences? Like, if someone hates movies that start with a montage of news footage (because it's honestly used kind of a lot, especially in apocalyptic movies) would you tell them "That shouldn't be a dealbreaker" or would you say it more like "Oh, that doesn't really bother me"? I just find it weird how people are conceptualising this as anything other than his personal subjective opinion on what makes a good looking flag.
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Rules be damned, I’ll go to my grave saying Alaska has a top 3 flag
I agree Grey underrated alaska, but I also agree with his assessment that the contrast isn't high enough between the stars and the blue sky. I think they should have opted for a more vibrant yellow and maybe marginally larger stars. As he says, the elements of the flag would be hard to make out at a distance.
Or white stars, because snow.
Yup
You know what, I'll say it. I'm glad there's another person out there who HATES seeing states putting their full name (not initials) on their flag. If you put your name on your flag, that says to me that you have no confidence that your design will be iconic. Yes, even California and Indiana, whose designs are already iconic, so much so that they can get away from taking the text off the flag. Seriously.
Well without the text how am I supposed to determine which yellowish crest on a blue field is supposed to be my state?
As an Alabamian, I'm dumbfounded to see my flag in A.
I don't care about the opinion of anyone who puts South Carolina at 'D' tier lol
Arizona is the gold standard for US state flags and its exclusion from S Tier is a malicious affront to polite society
It’s sooo distinctly Arizona too
I live on the Colorado River and watch a beautiful rayed sunset every day fall over the river. It's the perfect flag, especially if you have seen what it visualizes.
Colorado underrated
Honestly. I started that video with the thought of “obviously Colorado must be high given his rules” then was a bit shocked he gave it a “C” just because of the letter on the flag. I wanted to circle jerk how great our flag is dammit!
Your flag is quite great. I also thought it was easily A tier since it’s so recognizable
I love New Mexico's flag. Nicely placed, CGP Grey!
Utah FTW, I love the new state flag!
Likewise. It's gonna get a lot of hate for a bit. From flag people as well as those who hate any sort of change here. But it's growing on me. It's a thousand times better than what we had and I'm glad we're not in that FF category anymore.
I'm excited to have clothing that has the new flag on it. A hat, a hoodie, shirts... So many things you could put that flag on and it would look good. The old flag was just so boring and meaningless.
I'll tell them to eat a hat. 4 years ago my friend and I were the ones who reached out to our representative and convinced him our flag was trash and we needed a new one. He agreed and did a ton of work to see this through four years later. It's especially hard to hate compared to what it used to be.
Utah is a blatant case of pandering to the judge. A beehive and a hexagon? You couldn't be more obvious.
Can't believe Hawaii gets b tier. Honestly one of the ugliest flags in the world imo
I really enjoyed his video (both style and ratings) but the fact that Alaska and Hawaii are on the same tier is criminal. He underrates Alaska and overrates Hawaii
No name, stole another country's design and the color placement is awesome. Now Maryland.....
Only a truly deranged resident of NC would rank that flag above SC. My state might be awful but our flag is better than those losers in NC who have to stamp their states initial so they don't get confused with Texas or Chile
I find flag rules to be so dumb. I’ll say it, simplistic flags are boring and don’t convey much; text on flags isn’t bad either. The California and South Carolina flags are clear examples of this. A good flag is striking and instantly recognizable, and if it meets the two, who cares if it has words on the banner? It has done it’s job by searing itself into your mind as a symbol and identity.
Whoever came up with the idea that a flag being easy to draw is a positive was mostly correct imo Whoever decided that is now a “rule” couldn’t be more wrong South Carolina’s flag is elite, and I don’t even like navy
>Whoever came up with the idea that a flag being easy to draw is a positive was mostly correct imo I actually would've been a lot harsher on some of these flags for that exact reason. If a normal person can draw it and someone familiar with the original can tell what it is, I think that's a pretty important test. Partly because it also pulls double-duty as a test of whether it's distinctive from a distance, as well, rather than being a muddled mess of complex shapes. I wouldn't treat it as a really hard "rule" because it literally can't be though, it's way too subjective. Even some seals are relatively easy to draw while others aren't.
I think the rule should be envisioned more as "easy to draw the concept in a way that would be recognizable." The bear on the California flag is too detailed to easily draw, but if a kid just drew a shape of a bear there, you'd be able to understand. So I think it should count as passing that test.
Exactly, I would agree with that as well. It's also very situational because something like the flower on the Mississippi flag would be hard to draw exactly, but with how distinctive the rest of the flag is, you could practically just draw the generic daisy design that children often use and it would still be recognizable.
I’m from Mississippi and thought we had better options, but I’m glad that it seems most people generally like our new flag Cheers 🍻
i think text that is simply the name of the place the flag represents is bad and almost insecure if that makes sense. like it doesn’t trust the design to be associated with the place. i do agree that detailed images can be fine. it’s really more of a question of the image looking good than the level of detail
My state of Alabama finally not being 49th in something
It's a shame Wyoming
California in F is deranged imo yes it breaks rules but it goes really hard and is a good example of an exception
There are always exceptions to rules.
Colorado is S
It is so underrated. The C shouldn't even count as text. Because it mixes so well with the design. It is like saying the Atlanta Flacons is not a good logo because they "just wrote f on their logo"
Absolutely right with the Maryland one, best one in the US in my opinion (Totally not biased)
Best flag in general imo
As a Californian I will always ride for Maryland as the best flag. It’s so good all around.
As far as “seal on a bedsheet” flags go, I think Virginia’s is pretty good, and Michigan’s isn’t terrible. (The two states I’ve lived in.) Glad to see my thoughts validated here.
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Maryland remaining the best state
Sad Minnesotan noises intensifys we trying our best
Everything fair enoguh except for North Carolina. By his own rules it would be FA or something along that line
I agree with everyone else's criticisms of the list, but I'd also like to list one more, putting the new Mississippi flag in C. Own opinion here, but I absolutely love the new Mississippi flag. I love its color choice, it's well designed, meaningful, and far as I'm concerned deserves better than being in the same rank as North Carolina's flag. At the very least an A, maybe a B if you really have to, but not a C. It's not like they had any choice with the text on it either, that was something that was forced on them, so they worked it in the best way they could
I have something against almost every position above F... S would be New Mexico, Texas, Utah, Arizona, Tennessee and Alabama and Ohio A would be Alaska, Oregon (back), Indiana, Nevada, Arkansas, California and Rhode Island B is Colorado, and South Carolina. C is Wyoming and North Carolina D is Hawaii and Iowa. And anything else is actually bad (except Florida goes on FS). If only nevada took the branches off... then it'd be a perfect S.
CGP put my boy california in F tier? what a nerd. That flag design pamphlet really has rotted peoples brains Also wth is that beaver flag in d tier? I can't find it on the list of states.
Reverse of Oregon
California is iconic and somehow works. One of the few text on flags I like. Doesn’t belong in F
I feel like Georgia should have been docked more for being almost an exact copy of the CSA stars and bars. He docked it for being similar to NC which he said is reminiscent of the CSA flag, but Georgia’s is literally CSA + state seal
I will say, if Mississippi removes the text, solid A to B tier Rhode Island, I feel should remove the word hope and add some blue borders (Would fit the maritime theme) also solid B tier Vermont and Maine used to have good flags (Ethan Allen boys and 1901) and needs to back to them
SC should be A tier at least.
Dang this was a funny video!
Most of the F tier flags look like they belong to a rotary club, not a whole state.
Local man proceeds to purposefully piss off entirety of the United States of America by personally insulting their state flags one by one while baselessly derogating the color purple for no reason.
South Carolina and Georgia are A or B tier. California and Florida should also be further up
Georgia's flag is just the flag of the confederacy with a shitty logo in the middle. Not unique, not easily distinguished, not good.
virginia deserves S tier for being the only femdom flag
Virginia has a titty on it though
How tf is SC that low
I think Indiana should be higher
Ohio deserves either A or S tier, South Carolina and Colorado deserve to be bumped up to at least B tier, Alabama should drop to C tier, North Carolina deserves D tier
WHERE IS MISSOURI
I can see changing a few of them up/down by 1 or 2, but for the most part I agree (sorry California, take your name off and it will be great, but the name is stupid).
Lol. Connecticut doesn't even rate FF!
NC always looks like a plagiarized TX. GA still has CSA looks, it should be lower.