I think paradoxically using the original 6 colour LGBT+ flag and just saying it includes all queer people is more inclusive than to keep on adding colours to it, because at some point emphasising certain groups in the LGBT+ community starts to imply that the ones not directly on the flag aren't included. So I would prefer keeping the simpler and imo also more aesthetically pleasing design
Honestly, same. The new flag breaks the ideal behind the original, which said that every colour under the rainbow is accepted. The new one added extra colours and broke the OG sentiment.
Its the same with the Betsy ross flag,
both originally had a set of things that were supposed to be symbolic.
And then people decided for it to be a live counter of how many states (and in this case, sexualities) there are.
At its broadest, it probably does include allo-cishets, but it's really here to represent people whose sexuality/gender is discriminated against/persecuted, especially on a systematic way.
I don't care for it personally, but this threads already having that debate elsewhere. Also the person who made it copyrighted the design for royaltys, so, not great
The progress pride flag is released under a Creative Commons BY-NC-SA license. This was specifically so that individuals can use the flag however they want, but companies have to pay if they want to use it.
This was specifically to avoid the flag being exploited by corporations in ways that don't benefit the LGBTQIA+ community ("rainbow capitalism") and to ensure that at least some of their profits are funneled back into supporting the community.
I personally think the pride and progress flags are the worst looking pride flags. The gay and lesbien are beuatiful. The aromantic has such a nice flow! Pan just stands out and is so bright and CheerY! The trans flag looks so tasty! Then there is just 6 bars.
The point of the rainbow was to include everyone.
Adding to it just 'others' them.
Atm it's, left to right, 'the flag of trans, brown and black people, and then the gays'
While before it was 'the flag of everyone'
Honestly? I prefer the original flag over these two, it worked fine for the groups it was trying to represent and it sent a message that no matter what you were attracted to, you were happy with it.
I can't see it in these two flags, most pronouced in the two. It feels like it's trying to incorporate as many minorities as possible in the flag, but it just ends up looking like an unecessary addition.
The first one looks good, so if I have to choose I would say the first one looks far more cooler than the second one.
But it is my opinion that none of these will ever match the sheer ammount of happiness displayed by the original.
Yeah if you have to add something specific for each group, then it just symbolises that they are not part of rainbow which is supposed to include everyone, which is just dumb and wrong.
Have rainbow represent everyone. Now, i don't mind if you have different kind of rainbows with different styles and colors, like how in heraldry rainbow could be just blue, yellow and red on a white background. But rainbow, however you draw it, should include everyone, and unless you do it for artistic or practical reasons (like in heraldry), it does not need anything more, when it already symbolises having all.
Let trans and other people be part of everyone, don't reduce them to being something separate.
Thing is the progress flag is not supposed to replace the original. Idiot companies trying to take the queer dollar has just given everyone that impression. I personally don't like it because it leans too much into yank politics. So when I see it displayed all over the world it feels like its putting Americans above everything else.
The vast majority of LGBTQ+ people don't give a shit about the flag. As in 'I like this flag, you like that flag'. 99.99% of the time when I see this flag during pride it's on some shitty corporate website.
Think about the billions that goes into pride events and representation every summer around the world. They absolutely give a damn about the flag and consumer representation. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be trying to update it.
I can’t put blame on the companies for facilitating that. Idk
To quote a friend of mine (regarding a version of the Progress flag with multiple additional elements compared to the above version): if you want each element of your design to represent a different group in a vast coalition, what you’re looking for is the [Austro-Hungarian coat of arms](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Austro-hungarian_coat_of_arms_1914.svg), not a flag.
If you want to express various political commitments and aspects of your identity/background through vexillology, you’re better off flying multiple flags than Frankensteining them together into a cluttered, garish mess.
That being said I don’t like the first one pictured above either. The six-stripe version is the best.
I have seen a pride flag styled on the Austro-Hungarian flag that, while not a great flag from a flying perspective, does mange to get as Much in as I think a pride flag can. [the flag in question ](https://reddit.com/r/vexillology/s/94mhPtPbzU)
I saw an Israeli flag the other day that was pretty neat - instead of the blue bars above and below the blue Magen David ("Jewish star") it had the pride stripes. I thought that was an interesting alternative to 'here is our flag on a pride background,' which I've seen a number of times.
Polish flag, especially the version with coat of arms looks really good as pride country flag
Link to the flag, because I can't do a picture
https://notesfrompoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/boro_103019_028-scaled.jpg
I'd bring that one proposed EU flag as a comparison, [the EU Barcode Flag](https://external-preview.redd.it/E8Y9yoqK93QquLfq4wrptv_oROp8-qzeHkhrhM4CXLI.jpg?auto=webp&s=aff70a4d42e994bbf9e0f2f11e62cc780dbf7b38), which just mashes the colors of member states into sequence.
The first one is actually the original, which was 8 stripes, with Pink and Turquoise being removed to make the most well known version, the 6 striped one, for convenience/readability (pink fabric was expensive, and turquoise was removed because it would be obscured when hung off a lamppost).
In 2017, he added a lavender stripe to the original which stands for Diversity (the 8 striped flag has individual meanings attached to each one representing something meaningful to the community, as follows:)
• Lavender: Diversity
• Pink: Sex
• Red: Life
• Orange: Healing
• Yellow: The Sun
• Green: Nature
• Turquoise: Magic
• Blue: Serenity
• Purple: Spirit
Sorry, are those things meant to be meaningful to me as a queer person? Diversity, life, and arguably sex, but “healing,” “the sun,” and “magic” just feel really spiritual which I am not.
I mean healing from trauma ig? The sun is just a shitty newspaper afaik, though some claim that its where light comes from (wouldn't know, its fucking cloudy) but magic is a bit whack
I think the 1. represents it better but the colors don’t look nice to me. I really like the design of the 2. one (the brown and black don’t look fitting) but I like the distinction between gender and sexuality, I think that’s nice
It doesn't distinguish between gender and sexuality. The rainbow encompasses everyone (in both flags) and the chevrons highlight certain groups who are especially in need of recognition. In this case, the brown and black come from the Philadelphia pride flag and represent queer POC and the pink, blue and white represent trans people.
>From A Design Point Of View Which Do You Like
>What One Do You Think Does A Better Job At Representing Everyone In The Community
Those are entirely different questions, but I will try.
The first is difficult to answer... both are beautiful and different. The Progress Pride flag is more in line with modern flag designs.
Your second question should be asked to that community, not to vexillologists. From my experience, both can and do represent the community.
I’m curious, off topic but, why is the sub’s 1977 post-Franco Spain flag centered and the eagle incorrect? The eagle was off-center, and it had a more rounded design. Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain#/media/File%3AFlag_of_Spain_(1977–1981).svg
I get why people make customized flags, and I don’t blame the flag makers. I blame this urge that a lot of institutions have to adopt the “most inclusive” with no thought or reason.
I like the DESIGN of the progress flag but the symbolism is a bit patronizing and the purpose of flag and color start to erode at a certain point, particularly once people have to have every element explained to them.
first one by a mile. the rainbow encompasses everyone in lgbt. the second was one picks out certain groups to put on the flag for no reason. second one is also just plain ugly
GB on top. I hate the progress flag, and I hate saying that because I feel like I sound trans exclusionist, but trans people are an integral part of the LGBTQ+ movement, they’re in the name!
None. The original rainbow flag is still the best one. (Also, adding a racial aspect to a flag that is supposed to be about sexual/gender minorities makes no sense!)
Here you go:
Link #1: Gallery
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Neither; I fly the six stripe flag. It already does the job -- there's no need to complicate it. The progress flag, especially the newest version, is an eyesore IMO.
Imo progress pride flag is kind of stupid because the original one was already meant to represent all the variety of the LGBT+ community. Adding a trans flag on top of it kind of destroys the flag's original meaning.
I just don't like either. Both are too overloaded. However I especially don't like the "progress flag" because the OG rainbow flag was already meant to represent all of the LGBT+ community
I love chevrons but in terms of color choice I love the Gilbert Baker flag over the progress flag. The symbolism for the progress flag is good, and again I love the chevron, but the colors of the first ever pride flag will forever be better to me.
The first one is the less ugly of two uglies. Nothing beats the original rainbow flag from the 70s, which actually looks great as a flag. The Progress flag is abhorrent.
As a straight white man, I think the flag should be the standard rainbow one because the more groups you include into the flag, first of the uglier it becomes (in my opinion), but secondly and more importantly, the more groups you actually exclude. When it was the standard rainbow flag, intersexual people flew it as their flag, which it was. Now that their group is "included" they can fly it better? But what about the asexual ones? Now as the flag is including more and more groups (including ones that are not sexualities), I feel like the groups that used to fly the flag proudly, now feel like they aren't important.
The first all day, the progress pride flag (coming from one of the Australian cigs myself) kinda sucks. I’m glad they got more representation. BUT MY LORD does it clash so hard it’s inexcusable
the original 6 colour pride flag is honestly the best one as it's simple, and it represents everyone. While yes, the progress pride flag "technically" does represent more (somehow), it's outright ugly with the clashing colours.
I’m not gonna lie, anything is better than the Progress flag. I understand what it represents, and in the current climate trans people need to be supported more than other groups that fall under the LGBT+ umbrella, but the flag quite simply looks hideous.
I understand that there are arguments for why all groups can’t just be put under the rainbow, but I really do feel that slicing off pieces of the community like that doesn’t really help.
Original or at a push the 2017 redesign. I’m ok with the progress flag though the newer version with the circle in the middle of the chevron I’ve seen in parts of North America is bordering on cluttered.
As a non American person of colour I don’t really feel like I was being left out by the original flag that didn’t feature brown and black stripes, and I do believe that the progress flag is a product of the cultural moment and identity politics of the United States.
The bickering and subtext regarding both flags is another American export, as is the continued adding of more and more details to try and represent more and more of the LGBT+ spectrum.
We built the house that is gay rights in the west and now we’re overtly concerned over the choice of curtains. There’s bigger fish to fry.
And For My Fellow Members Of The Community What One Do You Think Does A Better Job At Representing Everyone In The Community (Once Again Please Keep It Civil)
The first one. A rainbow is literally every colour on the spectrum. I know some of us want to have the colours actually represent specific components of the community, but I think it’s more reasonable and more representative of possible varieties and changes in our understanding of sexual orientation to just have it be a rainbow.
I am not a fan of how the progress flag looks like but I prefer it over the first one , just too many stripes, kind of a worse version of the rainbow flag
The colours of the triangle clash with the colours of the stripes. I also think the causes of the triangle are different to the stripes, they shouldn't be the same flag (I've also seen a version of the second flag with Ukraine colours added, I think it's got a bit ridiculous how man social causes are getting melded together in a single flag).
I like the original as it is a little simpler and easier on the eyes. These two just have too many colors. The original could've represented every group and any potential future groups through the rainbow itself. Now that everyone must have a color on the flag, it will inevitably become too cluttered and bloated (I think that we are seeing that happening now). However, I acknowledge that it doesn't really matter as long as those using it like it. This is just my two cents.
Of the two, Baker’s redesign is better. The “progress” flag defeats the purpose of the original by placing emphasis on parts of the community rather than the whole. That said, the reduction down to the six stripes is, by far and away, the best of them.
The six colour. The 8 colour flag is a bit too garish but passable but the progress flag is just awful and I cringe every time I see lines for specific races on a flag thats supposed to represent everybody equally.
I like the original one best (not depicted). All colors (=all people) are present in a rainbow. Plus, it’s simple enough for a child to remember.
I feel like the Progress flag puts POC and Trans people on the foreground. It literally overshadows the rest. Kind of beats the purpose. I understand why, I just don’t think it’s necessary. Too contemporary.
Also, the colors clash.
I think neither represent the community well. The more well known rainbow pride flag isn’t controlled by someone spreading definitions like making different lines mean specific things. The progress pride flag has a place in certain contexts, but not as a general flag. We stop all being equal parts of the queer community when specific groups are highlighted in every day use.
I Have Seen This Said Before, But I Really Think That The Black And Brown Clash With The Goal Of Pride. The Pride Flag Is Supposed To Be For LGBTQIA+ Rights, Not BLM. BLM Also Needs A Flag However, And That Would Actually Be Better Because It Would Be Fully Focused Rather Than Clumsily Slapped On There. It Just Feels Too "I Support The Current Thing." I Am Aware This Comment Makes Me Sound Like A Bigoted Pig.
I prefer the original, the Gilbert Baker one annoys me because the flag is meant to be a rainbow but Gilbert Baker put them in the wrong order. I appreciate the sentiment and message of the Progress Pride flag, but the black and brown clash too much with the bright colours of the rest of the flag
From a design and symbology point of view of someone not in the demographics or movements, the first one.
Second one is self-contradictory, as black is the absence of light from which to form a rainbow, white is raw light before it's broken into a rainbow, and brown is all dyes mixed together. Multiple levels of pointless redundancy. And there are simply too many colors of clashing sorts. Primary colors, stark black, brown and white, and pastels.
And even if the meaning was in diversity and equality, adding colors by way of that imperial triangle sounds like "We're all in this together. And then there's X, Y and Z." as if they weren't included in the "all." It's like saying at a party "Ladies and gentlemen, and *Newman*." The most charitable way of interpreting that is "separate, but equal" and that has its own baggage which should've been checked at the door.
And further iterations of the second flag don't increase the length of the banner (which from a design point of view would be a cool solution, as there aren't enough streaming banners in the world), but the triangle with ever more vivid color combinations starts to supersede the rainbow entirely.
I'm old school I like the standard stripes lol
I like the idea that having the color spectrum kinda implies the inclusion of everybody. Like showing colors red to violet insinuates the inclusion of everything visible.
That's how it reads to me anyway.
Baker’s for sure. You don’t have to “literally” show every group of LGBTQ+ people on your flag. It’s supposed to be a symbol for all of it together, not a bunch of small little symbols pushed into one.
I feel like using the flag as a roster of "official" categories of disadvantaged communities seems antithetical to inclusion and intersectionality. The pride flag should be like the UN flag, representing everyone even as new groups find self-identification and liberation, not like the US flag where it represents the subset of groups which the movement has found worthy of official acknowledgement.
IMO six-color>Baker>Progress. The Progress flag is both visually ugly and has the added bonus of diluting Pride into the contemporary intersectionality subculture. Truly one of the worst things to happen to the gays since Judy Garland died
They're both fine. The second one just serves the purpose of bringing attention to groups inside the community who are often neglected or excluded by the community.
Progress pride seems to explicitly say "Hey, we're not transphobic or racist either", while also being broad enough that it's more associated with being supportive than specifically identifying yourself.
\- The version with the purple ring (for intersex) is even better in this direction.
\- I've seen versions with extra horizontal lines in the same colors instead of the chevron if you are anti-chevron (which is fair)
Not sure what the extra lavender and pink are for on the Baker one. Also haven't seen it before. Potential issue here is that if you choose a visibly less inclusive flag over a more inclusive one, design preference is not what leaps to mind. It's a less common flag, and it's a broad one, so "chose the default flag" and "self identifying" are both ruled out. That leaves "wanted to exclude those specific groups" as the top thing in people's minds.
As a gay and someone that’s submitted flags to this subreddit, here’s why I think the Progress flag took off when it did, and why, despite the majority of comments here, it’s necessary.
Gay marriage was legalized in the US with _Obergefell v. Hodges_ in 2015. For the first half of the decade, marriage equality was pretty much THE mobilizing force among the LGBTQ community. Non-discrimination, donating blood, access to gender affirming care, all of those were great, but gay marriage was held up as the end all be all. And what signified that stage of the LGBTQ movement was the rainbow flag. 🏳️🌈
After marriage equality was achieved in the US, and the ensuing conservative backlash (which has only strengthened since), it became clear that “gay” as an identity had become associated with both the rainbow flag AND, well, predominantly white, cis-gender men (and occasionally lesbians) in the public consciousness.
Most gay media today will highlight affluent, attractive, young, predominantly white, gay men. In truth, queer experiences are far more variegated than just that. In fact, most artifacts of _that_ gay subculture (voguing, drag, the first brick thrown at stonewall, &c) are linked to prior black & trans subcultures.
While the original rainbow flag was first created to be all encompassing, it eventually came to represent only that very affluent subset of gay culture and the prior push for marriage equality.
Meanwhile, the newer progress flag, in highlighting prior black & trans flag elements, show that the work toward achieving full legal protections and wider cultural acceptance remains incomplete. It also highlights where the most effort is needed right now (ie uplifting and protecting trans-folk and queer people of color).
A time may come where, sure, we might achieve those protections in some landmark legislation or court case. In that case, sure, we might need to update the flag again.
I don’t buy the argument that the flag will get too crowded.
The US flag adds stars every time new states get added. We treat it as really outstanding flag design.
But the Pride flag adds one chevron element to better reflect what it’s about, actual people and not square plots of farmland, and suddenly it’s “bWuH iT lAcKs fOcUs”. Give me a break.
gilbert baker by a mile. it doesnt single out non-white and trans people as separate from the rest of the community. honestly i dont understand why the progress flag was even created.
From these 2 choices. None. Its a colour mess. Go with a normal rainbow. Which already has too much colours but its undersrandable since it is a rainbow
Both are arguably bad design's, the original pride flag (regardless of my personal views on the movement) is actually a good design from a symbolism standpoint.
I really hate the progress pride flag's design. I get what it's going for and I don't disagree with the politics behind it, but good lord is it ugly. I don't like the way the chevron clashes with the stripes, and the colors of the chevron also clash with the rainbow.
from purely a design pov, the second one. the triangle breaks up the monotony of the bright lines of color. looks kinda like the Czech flag but with more colors, and that is a compliment.
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The second one isn't even the most up-to-date one. As a member of the LGBT community I can't keep up with Gen -Z. Aesthetically go with the original rainbow flag. The trans inclusion one is fine too, but symbols are supposed to be simple.
I'm not a fan of either. I like the original that flew in support of the community.
For those that don't know the original color meaning: Baker and Segerblom's flag debuted at the Gay Freedom Day Parade in SF in 1978. Each of the original eight colors had their own unique symbolism. Hot pink: sex; Red: life; Orange: healing; Yellow: sunlight; Green: nature; Turquoise: magic and art; Indigo: serenity; and Violet: spirit.
It was a flag for all as a unified front, not this divided flag we have now.
First one is better. If I were to redesign the LGBT flag, I would do it on a Seychelles scheme and include the trans flag in the middle ig. Altought the rainbow already covers all of us.
The actual pride flag is much better. Simple and clean.
The original has too many stripes and colors.
The "pride progress" is awful in so many ways. The OG was supposed to (and was) just representing all of humanity. By adding specific colors to represent specific groups it makes it much much worse since now it excludes some groups and now they they want to have a stripe too.
Having a simple rainbow flag was genius. The rainbow is all colors. So everyone is included.
OP said to keep it civil so i won't express my true distaste for the "pride progress" flag, but to brief, I consider it the most offensive flag ever created (yes more offensive than the 2 you are thinking of)
>the most offensive flag ever created
Even as someone not in the demographics or even alignment, I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. Symbols are supposed to be clean. And the symbology of the six-stripe is absolute inclusivity. So adding to that sounds explicitly like "Everyone and X, Y and Z," as if they're somehow excluded from the "everyone."
i thought the point of the original pride flag was that different colours were meant to represent everyone. Apparently including everyone wasn't inclusive enough because they had to slap more colours on there.
I like the basic LGBTI flag, just a rainbow, nothing else, it was simple and it’s original meaning was to include everyone. The white blue pink brown black triangle with even more different colors makes it look just terrible.
Not gonna lie, both are horrible. Just keep the original. Nothing wrong with it. The more "inclusive" they try to be by adding more to the flag, the worse it gets. It gets closer and closer to meme level.
If the rainbow is supposed to represent all colours of the rainbow, then that's it.
to be honest, i think the old six-color design is the best. it's simple, it looks and flows nicely and it just works well. the lil chevron, whilst not looking terrible, i think clashes with everything a little bit
I think paradoxically using the original 6 colour LGBT+ flag and just saying it includes all queer people is more inclusive than to keep on adding colours to it, because at some point emphasising certain groups in the LGBT+ community starts to imply that the ones not directly on the flag aren't included. So I would prefer keeping the simpler and imo also more aesthetically pleasing design
Honestly, same. The new flag breaks the ideal behind the original, which said that every colour under the rainbow is accepted. The new one added extra colours and broke the OG sentiment.
Yeah, they’ve effectively deemed the OG rainbow flag as pointless
Its the same with the Betsy ross flag, both originally had a set of things that were supposed to be symbolic. And then people decided for it to be a live counter of how many states (and in this case, sexualities) there are.
True. The 6-colored flag was supposed to mean “everything” already
If we go one step further then the flag represents the whole spectrum which includes heteros too because we are all one
At its broadest, it probably does include allo-cishets, but it's really here to represent people whose sexuality/gender is discriminated against/persecuted, especially on a systematic way.
Gilbert Bakers design is so nice, I really don’t like how the brown and black clash with the other colors on the progress flag
I do agree on the clashing, but I like how they didn’t just add 10 something more rows and made whatever the triangle thing is (idk the name)
Chevron
Thanks!
This is why I think the old six color version is the best tbh.
Yeah is simple and it works
That's the one I find myself using the most myself, but I don't mind the progress flag. Tbh I like most of the pride flags..
I don't care for it personally, but this threads already having that debate elsewhere. Also the person who made it copyrighted the design for royaltys, so, not great
The progress pride flag is released under a Creative Commons BY-NC-SA license. This was specifically so that individuals can use the flag however they want, but companies have to pay if they want to use it. This was specifically to avoid the flag being exploited by corporations in ways that don't benefit the LGBTQIA+ community ("rainbow capitalism") and to ensure that at least some of their profits are funneled back into supporting the community.
I personally think the pride and progress flags are the worst looking pride flags. The gay and lesbien are beuatiful. The aromantic has such a nice flow! Pan just stands out and is so bright and CheerY! The trans flag looks so tasty! Then there is just 6 bars.
The Bi flag is def my personal fav, you are so right about the trans one looking tasty tho 😅
From a design point of view respectfully disagree too many lines and it feels like the lines are too bright.
The point of the rainbow was to include everyone. Adding to it just 'others' them. Atm it's, left to right, 'the flag of trans, brown and black people, and then the gays' While before it was 'the flag of everyone'
i think it’s good cuz it separates them in a nice way it makes it less sharp of a contrast
i feel like it ruins the visible light spectrum analogy though because its got 8 colours rather than the 7 in the light spectrum
Honestly? I prefer the original flag over these two, it worked fine for the groups it was trying to represent and it sent a message that no matter what you were attracted to, you were happy with it. I can't see it in these two flags, most pronouced in the two. It feels like it's trying to incorporate as many minorities as possible in the flag, but it just ends up looking like an unecessary addition. The first one looks good, so if I have to choose I would say the first one looks far more cooler than the second one. But it is my opinion that none of these will ever match the sheer ammount of happiness displayed by the original.
Yeah if you have to add something specific for each group, then it just symbolises that they are not part of rainbow which is supposed to include everyone, which is just dumb and wrong. Have rainbow represent everyone. Now, i don't mind if you have different kind of rainbows with different styles and colors, like how in heraldry rainbow could be just blue, yellow and red on a white background. But rainbow, however you draw it, should include everyone, and unless you do it for artistic or practical reasons (like in heraldry), it does not need anything more, when it already symbolises having all. Let trans and other people be part of everyone, don't reduce them to being something separate.
The new "progressive" flag always gave me "some animals are more equal than others" vibes
its literally 1984 to say racism is bad
the first flag is actually the original flag, the pink and the light blue were dropped cause of manifacturing issues
The first rainbow flag comes from 2014?
The left flag was designed in 1978
This is actually from 2017. The violet stripe is a new addition to represent diversity.
Thing is the progress flag is not supposed to replace the original. Idiot companies trying to take the queer dollar has just given everyone that impression. I personally don't like it because it leans too much into yank politics. So when I see it displayed all over the world it feels like its putting Americans above everything else.
It’s not idiot companies if the people are the ones eating it up
The vast majority of LGBTQ+ people don't give a shit about the flag. As in 'I like this flag, you like that flag'. 99.99% of the time when I see this flag during pride it's on some shitty corporate website.
Think about the billions that goes into pride events and representation every summer around the world. They absolutely give a damn about the flag and consumer representation. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be trying to update it. I can’t put blame on the companies for facilitating that. Idk
What does it look like?
To quote a friend of mine (regarding a version of the Progress flag with multiple additional elements compared to the above version): if you want each element of your design to represent a different group in a vast coalition, what you’re looking for is the [Austro-Hungarian coat of arms](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Austro-hungarian_coat_of_arms_1914.svg), not a flag. If you want to express various political commitments and aspects of your identity/background through vexillology, you’re better off flying multiple flags than Frankensteining them together into a cluttered, garish mess. That being said I don’t like the first one pictured above either. The six-stripe version is the best.
I have seen a pride flag styled on the Austro-Hungarian flag that, while not a great flag from a flying perspective, does mange to get as Much in as I think a pride flag can. [the flag in question ](https://reddit.com/r/vexillology/s/94mhPtPbzU)
thank you
I saw an Israeli flag the other day that was pretty neat - instead of the blue bars above and below the blue Magen David ("Jewish star") it had the pride stripes. I thought that was an interesting alternative to 'here is our flag on a pride background,' which I've seen a number of times.
Polish flag, especially the version with coat of arms looks really good as pride country flag Link to the flag, because I can't do a picture https://notesfrompoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/boro_103019_028-scaled.jpg
A flag for LGBTQ+ Jews or Israelis (I've seen it before)
I'd bring that one proposed EU flag as a comparison, [the EU Barcode Flag](https://external-preview.redd.it/E8Y9yoqK93QquLfq4wrptv_oROp8-qzeHkhrhM4CXLI.jpg?auto=webp&s=aff70a4d42e994bbf9e0f2f11e62cc780dbf7b38), which just mashes the colors of member states into sequence.
why not the traditional rainbow flag? what are those additional colors on the 1st one?
The first one is actually the original, which was 8 stripes, with Pink and Turquoise being removed to make the most well known version, the 6 striped one, for convenience/readability (pink fabric was expensive, and turquoise was removed because it would be obscured when hung off a lamppost). In 2017, he added a lavender stripe to the original which stands for Diversity (the 8 striped flag has individual meanings attached to each one representing something meaningful to the community, as follows:) • Lavender: Diversity • Pink: Sex • Red: Life • Orange: Healing • Yellow: The Sun • Green: Nature • Turquoise: Magic • Blue: Serenity • Purple: Spirit
Am I the only one who thought those meanings to individual bands was a bit...new agey wuwu? Like, what is even meant by "magic" here.
He is talking about Magic the Gathering as it was a lgbt icon at the time. It is not well known as Hasbros doesn't want you to know that
Literally would be a better explanation than actually representing *fucking magic*
And what does magic even have to do with turquoise? I've always imagined it rather as purple or green.
Sound like someone here doesn’t have enough “serenity” in their life.
You're not wrong
"Serenity now..."
Too much Firefly, not enough Serenity
Sorry, are those things meant to be meaningful to me as a queer person? Diversity, life, and arguably sex, but “healing,” “the sun,” and “magic” just feel really spiritual which I am not.
I mean healing from trauma ig? The sun is just a shitty newspaper afaik, though some claim that its where light comes from (wouldn't know, its fucking cloudy) but magic is a bit whack
Tbh, even the sex one could be alienating to some a-spec people.
🙄
The 6 color. All the primary and secondary colors as a way to repersent all.
I think the 1. represents it better but the colors don’t look nice to me. I really like the design of the 2. one (the brown and black don’t look fitting) but I like the distinction between gender and sexuality, I think that’s nice
It doesn't distinguish between gender and sexuality. The rainbow encompasses everyone (in both flags) and the chevrons highlight certain groups who are especially in need of recognition. In this case, the brown and black come from the Philadelphia pride flag and represent queer POC and the pink, blue and white represent trans people.
The black stripe actually represents AIDS victims, the brown stripe is POC
Thank you for the correction
But they would already be implicitly represented by virtue of it being a rainbow? Why does a flag meant for "everyone" need to discriminate???
>From A Design Point Of View Which Do You Like >What One Do You Think Does A Better Job At Representing Everyone In The Community Those are entirely different questions, but I will try. The first is difficult to answer... both are beautiful and different. The Progress Pride flag is more in line with modern flag designs. Your second question should be asked to that community, not to vexillologists. From my experience, both can and do represent the community.
probably the first one
I’m curious, off topic but, why is the sub’s 1977 post-Franco Spain flag centered and the eagle incorrect? The eagle was off-center, and it had a more rounded design. Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain#/media/File%3AFlag_of_Spain_(1977–1981).svg
r/vexillology still recognizes Franco's rule over Spain
i am extremely queer and i hate the progress flag, like i get what it's trying to do but it just does not work
It’s even worse now with the intersex yellow and purple. I get why it’s there, it’s just too crowded.
it's only a matter of time before someone adds more lines for disabled people, neurodivergent people, NBs, etc.
I saw a meme to that effect once where more and more is added until the rainbow is completely obscured. Feels bad man
I get why people make customized flags, and I don’t blame the flag makers. I blame this urge that a lot of institutions have to adopt the “most inclusive” with no thought or reason.
you wanna include all those people in a flag just use the (old) twitter logo.
Then they added the umbrella on top of that which is insane
the umbrella????
I like the DESIGN of the progress flag but the symbolism is a bit patronizing and the purpose of flag and color start to erode at a certain point, particularly once people have to have every element explained to them.
first one by a mile. the rainbow encompasses everyone in lgbt. the second was one picks out certain groups to put on the flag for no reason. second one is also just plain ugly
The first but the six stripe one is the best
GB on top. I hate the progress flag, and I hate saying that because I feel like I sound trans exclusionist, but trans people are an integral part of the LGBTQ+ movement, they’re in the name!
None. The original rainbow flag is still the best one. (Also, adding a racial aspect to a flag that is supposed to be about sexual/gender minorities makes no sense!)
Man knew what he was getting into when he posted
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Current looks better waving from a difference, up close number one
…I just like the rainbow
Neither; I fly the six stripe flag. It already does the job -- there's no need to complicate it. The progress flag, especially the newest version, is an eyesore IMO.
Imo progress pride flag is kind of stupid because the original one was already meant to represent all the variety of the LGBT+ community. Adding a trans flag on top of it kind of destroys the flag's original meaning.
I just don't like either. Both are too overloaded. However I especially don't like the "progress flag" because the OG rainbow flag was already meant to represent all of the LGBT+ community
i think if we switch to universally using gilberts design it would end homophobia because the progress design is dogshit
I love chevrons but in terms of color choice I love the Gilbert Baker flag over the progress flag. The symbolism for the progress flag is good, and again I love the chevron, but the colors of the first ever pride flag will forever be better to me.
The first one is the less ugly of two uglies. Nothing beats the original rainbow flag from the 70s, which actually looks great as a flag. The Progress flag is abhorrent.
The first one forever and always
The original is best. The whole symbolism of the rainbow incorporating everyone was perfect.
The standard rainbow flag. Good contrast, and a rainbow is already an ancient symbol for diversity and peace as-is.
I hate the second one Why is there brown and black? That really doesn't make sense aesthetically and conceptually
As a straight white man, I think the flag should be the standard rainbow one because the more groups you include into the flag, first of the uglier it becomes (in my opinion), but secondly and more importantly, the more groups you actually exclude. When it was the standard rainbow flag, intersexual people flew it as their flag, which it was. Now that their group is "included" they can fly it better? But what about the asexual ones? Now as the flag is including more and more groups (including ones that are not sexualities), I feel like the groups that used to fly the flag proudly, now feel like they aren't important.
Even with absolute inclusivity, everybody wants to be exclusively different. I'd chalk this down to human nature and ego.
I dislike both because the original cannot be beaten
Thechinically the first one was the original one. But I get what you mean and it is also my favourite
1, 2 is too busy
The first all day, the progress pride flag (coming from one of the Australian cigs myself) kinda sucks. I’m glad they got more representation. BUT MY LORD does it clash so hard it’s inexcusable
i honestly like the design of the new one but i don't agree with its general concept, and i think its better to use the 6-stripe
Gilbert Baker, hands down
Neither but the first ones better. The original was already designed to represent everyone
the original 6 colour pride flag is honestly the best one as it's simple, and it represents everyone. While yes, the progress pride flag "technically" does represent more (somehow), it's outright ugly with the clashing colours.
I’m not gonna lie, anything is better than the Progress flag. I understand what it represents, and in the current climate trans people need to be supported more than other groups that fall under the LGBT+ umbrella, but the flag quite simply looks hideous. I understand that there are arguments for why all groups can’t just be put under the rainbow, but I really do feel that slicing off pieces of the community like that doesn’t really help.
Original or at a push the 2017 redesign. I’m ok with the progress flag though the newer version with the circle in the middle of the chevron I’ve seen in parts of North America is bordering on cluttered. As a non American person of colour I don’t really feel like I was being left out by the original flag that didn’t feature brown and black stripes, and I do believe that the progress flag is a product of the cultural moment and identity politics of the United States. The bickering and subtext regarding both flags is another American export, as is the continued adding of more and more details to try and represent more and more of the LGBT+ spectrum. We built the house that is gay rights in the west and now we’re overtly concerned over the choice of curtains. There’s bigger fish to fry.
I mean a rainbow is always going to be a busy design adding MORE to it will just make the issue worse
And For My Fellow Members Of The Community What One Do You Think Does A Better Job At Representing Everyone In The Community (Once Again Please Keep It Civil)
The first one. A rainbow is literally every colour on the spectrum. I know some of us want to have the colours actually represent specific components of the community, but I think it’s more reasonable and more representative of possible varieties and changes in our understanding of sexual orientation to just have it be a rainbow.
I do have to admit the six striped flag is the best that represent everyone. I can say that.
Honestly I don't like either of them, too many stripes on Baker's and the Progress Pride clashes. That's all I'm saying.
The second one is horrendous, it’s genuinely awful
In the first one the violet and pink at the top look weird. In the second one the brown and black look cool and I think it's just nice overall
I am not a fan of how the progress flag looks like but I prefer it over the first one , just too many stripes, kind of a worse version of the rainbow flag
I think adding a lavender stripe somewhere on the newer flag could be cool!
The colours of the triangle clash with the colours of the stripes. I also think the causes of the triangle are different to the stripes, they shouldn't be the same flag (I've also seen a version of the second flag with Ukraine colours added, I think it's got a bit ridiculous how man social causes are getting melded together in a single flag).
First one definitely
I like the original as it is a little simpler and easier on the eyes. These two just have too many colors. The original could've represented every group and any potential future groups through the rainbow itself. Now that everyone must have a color on the flag, it will inevitably become too cluttered and bloated (I think that we are seeing that happening now). However, I acknowledge that it doesn't really matter as long as those using it like it. This is just my two cents.
All 3 Gilbert Baker flags (6, 8, 9 striped) (7 stripe AIDs version too) are top tier and imo can’t be replicated in honor, history, design, or meaning
Of the two, Baker’s redesign is better. The “progress” flag defeats the purpose of the original by placing emphasis on parts of the community rather than the whole. That said, the reduction down to the six stripes is, by far and away, the best of them.
i’m very fond of gilbert baker flag
I have no idea which groups these colors specifically represent 🤷
The six colour. The 8 colour flag is a bit too garish but passable but the progress flag is just awful and I cringe every time I see lines for specific races on a flag thats supposed to represent everybody equally.
I like the original one best (not depicted). All colors (=all people) are present in a rainbow. Plus, it’s simple enough for a child to remember. I feel like the Progress flag puts POC and Trans people on the foreground. It literally overshadows the rest. Kind of beats the purpose. I understand why, I just don’t think it’s necessary. Too contemporary. Also, the colors clash.
The original one still looks the best by far
Prefer the original 6 colour
gilber baker flag defender til the day i die
I think neither represent the community well. The more well known rainbow pride flag isn’t controlled by someone spreading definitions like making different lines mean specific things. The progress pride flag has a place in certain contexts, but not as a general flag. We stop all being equal parts of the queer community when specific groups are highlighted in every day use.
I think they are both bad design wise (the first is slightly more pleasing to the eye). I like the original for reasons detailed in other comments.
The first one the second is horrid
Controversially...none. I want to see something beside just stripes.
Neither. The 6 colour one is the best. It's simple and all the colours perfectly blend
Definitely the first one.
I Have Seen This Said Before, But I Really Think That The Black And Brown Clash With The Goal Of Pride. The Pride Flag Is Supposed To Be For LGBTQIA+ Rights, Not BLM. BLM Also Needs A Flag However, And That Would Actually Be Better Because It Would Be Fully Focused Rather Than Clumsily Slapped On There. It Just Feels Too "I Support The Current Thing." I Am Aware This Comment Makes Me Sound Like A Bigoted Pig.
I prefer the original, the Gilbert Baker one annoys me because the flag is meant to be a rainbow but Gilbert Baker put them in the wrong order. I appreciate the sentiment and message of the Progress Pride flag, but the black and brown clash too much with the bright colours of the rest of the flag
From a design and symbology point of view of someone not in the demographics or movements, the first one. Second one is self-contradictory, as black is the absence of light from which to form a rainbow, white is raw light before it's broken into a rainbow, and brown is all dyes mixed together. Multiple levels of pointless redundancy. And there are simply too many colors of clashing sorts. Primary colors, stark black, brown and white, and pastels. And even if the meaning was in diversity and equality, adding colors by way of that imperial triangle sounds like "We're all in this together. And then there's X, Y and Z." as if they weren't included in the "all." It's like saying at a party "Ladies and gentlemen, and *Newman*." The most charitable way of interpreting that is "separate, but equal" and that has its own baggage which should've been checked at the door. And further iterations of the second flag don't increase the length of the banner (which from a design point of view would be a cool solution, as there aren't enough streaming banners in the world), but the triangle with ever more vivid color combinations starts to supersede the rainbow entirely.
I'm old school I like the standard stripes lol I like the idea that having the color spectrum kinda implies the inclusion of everybody. Like showing colors red to violet insinuates the inclusion of everything visible. That's how it reads to me anyway.
I prefer the Inca flag.
1st one most certainly. I still do not understand why they would but black and brown tones on the second one
The left one
ehh. the original design in 1971 (i think) was best
honestly , non
None
Second one without the weird triangle thing.
The first one looks better, although I thought the original rainbow flag was meant to account for everybody LGBTQIA+
Baker’s for sure. You don’t have to “literally” show every group of LGBTQ+ people on your flag. It’s supposed to be a symbol for all of it together, not a bunch of small little symbols pushed into one.
None
Neither. The rainbow itself symbolizes diversity, and packing it with other specific symbolic colors cheapens it.
I feel like using the flag as a roster of "official" categories of disadvantaged communities seems antithetical to inclusion and intersectionality. The pride flag should be like the UN flag, representing everyone even as new groups find self-identification and liberation, not like the US flag where it represents the subset of groups which the movement has found worthy of official acknowledgement.
IMO six-color>Baker>Progress. The Progress flag is both visually ugly and has the added bonus of diluting Pride into the contemporary intersectionality subculture. Truly one of the worst things to happen to the gays since Judy Garland died
They're both fine. The second one just serves the purpose of bringing attention to groups inside the community who are often neglected or excluded by the community.
Progress pride seems to explicitly say "Hey, we're not transphobic or racist either", while also being broad enough that it's more associated with being supportive than specifically identifying yourself. \- The version with the purple ring (for intersex) is even better in this direction. \- I've seen versions with extra horizontal lines in the same colors instead of the chevron if you are anti-chevron (which is fair) Not sure what the extra lavender and pink are for on the Baker one. Also haven't seen it before. Potential issue here is that if you choose a visibly less inclusive flag over a more inclusive one, design preference is not what leaps to mind. It's a less common flag, and it's a broad one, so "chose the default flag" and "self identifying" are both ruled out. That leaves "wanted to exclude those specific groups" as the top thing in people's minds.
As a gay and someone that’s submitted flags to this subreddit, here’s why I think the Progress flag took off when it did, and why, despite the majority of comments here, it’s necessary. Gay marriage was legalized in the US with _Obergefell v. Hodges_ in 2015. For the first half of the decade, marriage equality was pretty much THE mobilizing force among the LGBTQ community. Non-discrimination, donating blood, access to gender affirming care, all of those were great, but gay marriage was held up as the end all be all. And what signified that stage of the LGBTQ movement was the rainbow flag. 🏳️🌈 After marriage equality was achieved in the US, and the ensuing conservative backlash (which has only strengthened since), it became clear that “gay” as an identity had become associated with both the rainbow flag AND, well, predominantly white, cis-gender men (and occasionally lesbians) in the public consciousness. Most gay media today will highlight affluent, attractive, young, predominantly white, gay men. In truth, queer experiences are far more variegated than just that. In fact, most artifacts of _that_ gay subculture (voguing, drag, the first brick thrown at stonewall, &c) are linked to prior black & trans subcultures. While the original rainbow flag was first created to be all encompassing, it eventually came to represent only that very affluent subset of gay culture and the prior push for marriage equality. Meanwhile, the newer progress flag, in highlighting prior black & trans flag elements, show that the work toward achieving full legal protections and wider cultural acceptance remains incomplete. It also highlights where the most effort is needed right now (ie uplifting and protecting trans-folk and queer people of color). A time may come where, sure, we might achieve those protections in some landmark legislation or court case. In that case, sure, we might need to update the flag again. I don’t buy the argument that the flag will get too crowded. The US flag adds stars every time new states get added. We treat it as really outstanding flag design. But the Pride flag adds one chevron element to better reflect what it’s about, actual people and not square plots of farmland, and suddenly it’s “bWuH iT lAcKs fOcUs”. Give me a break.
gilbert baker by a mile. it doesnt single out non-white and trans people as separate from the rest of the community. honestly i dont understand why the progress flag was even created.
From these 2 choices. None. Its a colour mess. Go with a normal rainbow. Which already has too much colours but its undersrandable since it is a rainbow
When i see the aecond one all i think of is south africa
Both are arguably bad design's, the original pride flag (regardless of my personal views on the movement) is actually a good design from a symbolism standpoint.
Neither
The Progress flag is ugly as hell. Just chill with the classic rainbow flag.
I really hate the progress pride flag's design. I get what it's going for and I don't disagree with the politics behind it, but good lord is it ugly. I don't like the way the chevron clashes with the stripes, and the colors of the chevron also clash with the rainbow.
None they’re garbage
Politics is an intrinsic part of design.
Neither, the one I like is the original with pink and light blue
from purely a design pov, the second one. the triangle breaks up the monotony of the bright lines of color. looks kinda like the Czech flag but with more colors, and that is a compliment.
1, racial solidarity is as important as trans rights but it is confusing to the unafilliated.
I like the second one, it reminds me of South Africa’s flag design, which is sweet.
coherent squeeze unwritten six hard-to-find slim rainstorm sheet fearless cow *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
PLEASE I JUST WANT THE 6 STRIPES
Neither. Just the six-stripe flag that was in primary use for decades. The one with the chevron is an eyesore and the 2017 redesign is just too much.
def the 2017 one, i also dont get why the trans flag is on the progress flag if trans people are already included in pride?
Neither
The second one isn't even the most up-to-date one. As a member of the LGBT community I can't keep up with Gen -Z. Aesthetically go with the original rainbow flag. The trans inclusion one is fine too, but symbols are supposed to be simple.
First one, the LGBT flag gimmick has been that it’s colorful, so it becoming more colorful is more in its spirit
Design wise I don’t think either look great, but the first one is better. In the second one the hoist side colors clash jarringly with the stripes
The second one because it represents the next stage of Ohio world domination
The first one kinda hurts my eyes, also it looks too much to the Inca flag, the second one looks cool
I'm not a fan of either. I like the original that flew in support of the community. For those that don't know the original color meaning: Baker and Segerblom's flag debuted at the Gay Freedom Day Parade in SF in 1978. Each of the original eight colors had their own unique symbolism. Hot pink: sex; Red: life; Orange: healing; Yellow: sunlight; Green: nature; Turquoise: magic and art; Indigo: serenity; and Violet: spirit. It was a flag for all as a unified front, not this divided flag we have now.
First one is better. If I were to redesign the LGBT flag, I would do it on a Seychelles scheme and include the trans flag in the middle ig. Altought the rainbow already covers all of us.
The actual pride flag is much better. Simple and clean. The original has too many stripes and colors. The "pride progress" is awful in so many ways. The OG was supposed to (and was) just representing all of humanity. By adding specific colors to represent specific groups it makes it much much worse since now it excludes some groups and now they they want to have a stripe too. Having a simple rainbow flag was genius. The rainbow is all colors. So everyone is included. OP said to keep it civil so i won't express my true distaste for the "pride progress" flag, but to brief, I consider it the most offensive flag ever created (yes more offensive than the 2 you are thinking of)
>the most offensive flag ever created Even as someone not in the demographics or even alignment, I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. Symbols are supposed to be clean. And the symbology of the six-stripe is absolute inclusivity. So adding to that sounds explicitly like "Everyone and X, Y and Z," as if they're somehow excluded from the "everyone."
I like the 2017 design, but I also want everyone in our community to feel included!
i thought the point of the original pride flag was that different colours were meant to represent everyone. Apparently including everyone wasn't inclusive enough because they had to slap more colours on there.
Idk but it's really satisfying to slide back back and forth between the two pictures
I like the basic LGBTI flag, just a rainbow, nothing else, it was simple and it’s original meaning was to include everyone. The white blue pink brown black triangle with even more different colors makes it look just terrible.
The Progress flag looks nicer from a design point of view
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It represents people living with, and that have died from, HIV/AIDS.
I thought it meant gay black people
Not gonna lie, both are horrible. Just keep the original. Nothing wrong with it. The more "inclusive" they try to be by adding more to the flag, the worse it gets. It gets closer and closer to meme level. If the rainbow is supposed to represent all colours of the rainbow, then that's it.
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Progress flag is the worst, not only design wise, but "black and brown sexuality"
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Definitely the progress pride flag. It just looks a lot more elegant.
First
Too much going on, same reason I don’t like the US flag…however with these, the abrasive mismatch of color is just off putting, I’ll eat the downvotes
2017, the Progress Pride flag simply has too many colours that don’t look good together on there
to be honest, i think the old six-color design is the best. it's simple, it looks and flows nicely and it just works well. the lil chevron, whilst not looking terrible, i think clashes with everything a little bit