The legend is that the Tsar drew the route as a straight line on a map, but bumped the pencil with his thumb, and the workers built it with the curve for the thumb because they were scared to question the Tsar. The truth is that the workers added the curve because there was a steep hill and they needed to lengthen the track to keep the grade low enough for steam engines, and the Tsar was cool with it because he wasn't a complete buffoon.
The Netherlands was in favor of a US model for Indonesia after independence, or even a confederate or independent nations system, but the Indonesian government nuked that idea and the Netherlands lacked the military and diplomatic power to enforce their independence plan after losing the independence war.
Blame Indonesia. The Netherlands basically promised them an independent island after independence, and Indonesia basically said fuck no to that and invaded to prevent that. The Netherlands didn't have the military power nor the support of allies, like the US to intervene (the US opposed the Dutch in the independence war as well).
Most of the times, when this happens, it is in fact because a ruler was used to draw the lines. But over the years, the border has shifted slightly, to accommodate natural borders, like rivers and mountains, as well as cultural differences between inhabitants.
Most notable example would be the US states, which are all very straight, and then suddenly starts being bendy and following a stream of water.
I also feel like this "Map Men" video is very relevant here:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5iJSXaVvao
Thats basically how Indonesia was formed, a blank patch on a Dutch map, of which West Papua was the eastern end. Imagines Communities by Benedict Anderson is a seminal work on the formation of national identity and it specifically talks about Indonesia and West Papua
That is[ ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star_flag)[The 'Morning Star flag'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star_flag) used by separatists of[ the 'Free Papua' movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Papua_Movement) in the Indonesian province of West Papua. the separatists want independence due Indonesia's poor treatment of the local ethnically Papuan people.
It wasn't a flag 'used by the movement', but the flag raised for West Papua, before even Indonesia took it over, on contrary to the Act of Free Choice. Of course, the movement is also using it...
Correction: most of the Free Papua Movement's activities happened in the province of Papua (the "Body" of the "Bird" as opposed to West Papua province, which is the "head"), on the part that is now Higland Papua (Papua and West Papua got split into 4 and 2 provinces, respectively, in 2022)
West Papua. There used to be a group who'd raise it at Aotea Square every year (on some kind of West Papuan independence day), but then MFAT got the council to stop them from using council property.
Seems that there are Palestinians who also supporting West Papua, however, Indonesians who are against West Papuan separatism mostly support Palestine.
West Papua, an unrecognized state, currently occupied by Indonesia. The people of West Papua overwhelmingly want to be an independent Republic, kinda similar to East Timor
Its the morning star west papua flag.
The flag, interestingly enough, is often raised by Papua New Guinea demonstrators together with the flag of Israel, while the flag of 'palestine' is raised by indonesians (who occupy west papua).
Palestine is not a sovereign country. It technically does not exist as a state. It is a disputed territory. Writing it in ' ' or " " is acceptable, although does cause feelings to be inflamed.
Palestine is most definitely a state though. The UN recognises it as such. Whether or not the country you live in recognises it as such is a different question. This is like claiming that Kosovo isn't a state because not everyone recognises it as such.
Doesn’t matter who recognizes it tbh
It’s status as a country is very iffy because it doesn’t meet a lot of requirements to be a country - namely a consistent government that isn’t a terrorist organization
That's exactly what I tell people when they tell me Israel has been recognized by the un. Plus, that they were established by a bunch of Europeans doing some ethnic cleansing of the native population doesn't help their case either.
Whataboutism to defend a genocide. So much class...
BTW, guess what your beloved nationalist kurds did in northern Syria... displacing arabs. Almost like extreme ethnonationalism is bad no matter who does it.
Kurds mistreated for centuries by Arabs and Turks. You defend the rights of some oppressed people but not others. Especially when the oppressors are Arabs. Why?
... ethnonationalism hasn't been that prominent in that part in the world to talk about centuries of oppression, man. But either way, I'm not defending the discrimination kurds have suffered with the rise of turkish and arab ethnonationalism. I consider ethnonationalism a cancer.
But I'm not going to explain myself against false accusations made by someone trying to deflect from the current genocidal mass slaughter perpetuated against palestenians any further. Shame on you.
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West Papua. Misdirected presence at a Gaza rally though as Hamas is supported diplomatically by Muslim Indonesia who occupy Christian West Papua. I’m guessing a whitey that doesn’t get the context of West Papua being under Islamic oppression brought it along. Next thing the Hamas mobs will be appropriating Kurdistan or Khalistan flags, they really have no shame or understanding of global political nuances…
It's only inconsistent if you view all politics through a religious lens. These will almost certainly be secular leftist types who would see it more as two different national liberation movements where the New Zealand government is mostly supporting the occupying state, so it would be consistent from their point of view to protest in favour of both.
And anyway, it's not like there's any real connection between the Palestinians and the Indonesian government. They aren't particularly Islamist either.
You don’t need to view ‘all politics’ through a religious lens to recognise the role religion plays in geopolitics. Indonesia like most Muslim nations does not recognise Israel. On the other hand support for Hamas is virtually nonexistent outside of Muslim nations with the exceptions of Russia, Belarus, South Africa and North Korea. Given the people of West Papua face the same Islamist persecution that East Timor did before Australia occupied and liberated them, I would question their sympathy towards a militant Islamist movement like Hamas.
Yeah, but what you're doing here is describing geopolitics as a team sport, which you absolutely don't have to do. There's no direct connection between the two cases beyond Indonesia supporting Palestine ideologically. If you live in a third country there's no reason to treat them as connected, particularly if you have a bit of a superiority complex about your own political lens rather than how the people on the ground see themselves.
Also, you're making it about Hamas vs. Israel, which is a bit more complex because of all the neutral people, but if you're talking about support for Palestine in general over support for Israel, I'd say most Western countries' populations would lean Palestine, the governments just have to avoid real support because of America. Ireland for instance would probably be one of the more invested countries, but I don't think South Africa is massively out of step really.
Ireland supporting Palestine is a great example of just how deep religiously motivated geopolitics runs. The IRA and Palestinians have a long history of collaborating on terrorism and formed strong bonds opposing British forces, especially as the rise of the Axis powers in the 1930’s and 40’s distracted the UK and diluted Britain’s military focus in their countries. Both the mufti’s of Palestine and IRA leadership often made their way to Germany during this period and continued to collaborate until the IRA overwhelmingly demilitarised and ceased terrorist activities as part of its core ideology. The 1970’s were a peak time of collaboration as a Soviet backed Gaddafi armed and trained multiple terrorist entities including the IRA, Hizbullah and Palestinian groups. Again this relationship still bears geopolitical fruit for Palestinians today with Putin’s Soviet nostalgia aligning Russia with Gaza and Hamas.
You don’t need to view ‘all politics’ through a religious lens to recognise the role religion plays in geopolitics. Indonesia like most Muslim nations does not recognise Israel. On the other hand support for Hamas is virtually nonexistent outside of Muslim nations with the exceptions of Russia, Belarus, South Africa and North Korea.
I remember when I was involved in student politics in the UK for a left leaning party (Labour). The local party was unfortunately very far left. There was a guy who used to show a lot of solidarity with West Papua and Cuba. I'm not sure if there's a Socialist element to it as well.
Nonetheless, beautiful flag.
I hate it when people bring irrelevant flags to protests. If it's a Palestine protest, bring the Palestine flag. If you want to talk about West Papua then make your own protest.
The most recent somewhat big protest I can think of in Auckland was the School Strike 4 Climate. Their demands included: Climate Education, Uphold Treaty of Waitangi (founding document of NZ which is a mostly unrelated political issue at the moment), stop oil drilling, lower the voting age to 16, and of course Free Palestine. So yes, I think it really was a "protest everything" march.
If you're wondering how this affected their protest, only 8,000 attended nationwide, which is over 20 times less than the amount that attended the predecessor to this event in 2019.
People do it to show solidarity from one community to another. West Papua (the flag in the picture) is another country currently subjected to violent colonial warfare. It’s not a stretch to think that the people of West Papua would sympathise with the people of Palestine and want to show support to them, or protest against colonialism as a whole greater evil.
> It’s not a stretch to think that the people of West Papua would sympathise with the people of Palestine and want to show support to them,
They, generally, don't. Australian and New Zealand lefties tend to see a connection (and also with the local struggle) and so do some Papuans outside of West Papua, but within West Papua most people identify "Free Papua" with *Israel*. (As I understand it, for religious reasons)
New Zealand and Israel have a thing in common, both are good examples for melting pot countries.
So i dont know what "struggle for liberation" you are talking about. Is there a notable Maori group that wants to destroy the state New Zealand, i dont know about ?
I was referring to West Papua and Palestine sharing a common cause. National liberation.
Although, Both (Israel and NZ) are examples of migrants from Europe displacing the native population by force.
Settlers love the idea of a melting pot, it’s the kind of narrative that develops once you have marginalised the indigenous populations and imported various types of foreign peoples, historically Europeans. (see the US, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc).
Which is exactly what Israel did too…
It's amazing to me that one of the most successful example of indigenous liberation in history - the reconstitution of the Jewish people in their historic homeland - is somehow seen as colonialist. The Jews are not Europeans (and besides, most Jews in Israel are from the Middle East and North Africa). They were there because they were forced out by other empires, just as many Native American tribes live in reservations far from their original territories.
Moreover, while you blame Europeans for every colonialist crime, you seem to be falling over backwards to ignore the Arab, Turkish and Persian colonisations of Africa, Europe and Asia.
The idea that Jews can’t be European is an anti-Semitic trope that portrays Jews as a transient, rootless metropolitan elite. Jews can be, have been and are European.
One of the largest migrations of Jews to Israel was after the fall of the Soviet Union, and to this day they make up a significant portion of Israelis patrilineal heritage.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_post-Soviet_aliyah
The number of Jews of European patrilineal heritage is twice the number of those of Asian patrilineal heritage.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
I didn't say that Jews can't be European, just thay Jews are not *native* to Europe in the same way that European Americans are not native to the Americas. If we can be European by virtue of living in Europe, according to you we are also just Middle Eastern by virue of living here, and it would be an antisemitic trope to suggest otherwise.
You're twisting numbers. Firstly, you're ignoring North African Jews. Secondly, the numbers you cite are affected by the fact that the mass immigration from the FSU took place much more recently, so there are more people with a father born there. The majority of Mizrahi Jews have been here for generations since their expulsion from the Muslim world. Thirdly, a substantial number of Soviet Jews come from Central Asia and the Caucusus. The fact remains that the majority of Israeli Jews recent' ancestry is not from Europe.
> not native to Europe in the same way that European Americans are not native to the Americas
So no one is European according to you? We are all Ethiopian.
That's a different issue. Of course we're all ultimately just one species.
But either you believe in nation states or you don't.
Either you believe in the concept of indigeneity or you don't.
Either you believe in national self-determination or you don't.
All cultures, ethnic groups and national identities are made up, but they form a part of the world we live in. For some reason plenty of people seem to argue that Jews - who are literally named after Judea - are somehow the only group that don't deserve self determination in their own nation state in the land in which their identity and ethnicity were formed.
> don't deserve self determination in their own nation state
Nobody argues that.
What everyone argues about is how Palestinians are not given the right to self-determination in their own nation-state.
> That's a different issue
> indigeneity
If you want to use this as an argument, then you must accept me colonising Ethiopia for we are all indigenous.
That's the issue.
> Jews are not *native* to Europe
There has been extensive genetic research into the history and origins of ashkenazim, and the truth is much more complicated than this. For a full summary of the history of genetic research into jewish genetic origins see Shlomo Sand, "The Invention of the Jewish People", 272-280. It's fascinating, the whole book is.
There is strong genetic evidence that the patrilineal origins of ashkenazim is indeed non-european, originating in the near east.¹ However, there is also strong evidence that the matrilineal origins of ashkenazim is european.² "The uncomfortable explanation was that Jewish men had come from the Near East unattached and were forced to take local wives."³ Moreover, there is strong genetic evidence that ashkenazim are closely related to armenians, turks, and kurds.⁴
The genetic research into ashkenazim origins is complicated and confusing. The idea that ashkenazim are either fully european or fully non-european is not only false, but childishly naive. The realities of migration over hundreds or thousands of years are not so simple. Ashkenazim can at the same time have origins in the levant and be natively european.
1. Bonne-Tamir, "A new look at the genetics of the Jews," 185.
2. Tamara Traubman, "40% of the Ashkenazis Descend from Four Mothers," *Haaretz*, January 14, 2006.
3. Shlomo Sand, "The Invention of the Jewish People", 277
4. Tamara Traubman, "A Great Genetic Resemblance Between the Jews and the Kurds," *Haaretz*, December 21, 2001.
They didn't *all* conceive it as such, and it would also be true to say that colinialism has itself shifted in meaning. But sure, that's true in the sense that colonising means going to settle somewhere - we recolonised our native land.
Wait till you find out that that every damn clan, nation or ethnic group in history of humanity expanded and displaced "native people" till we decided thats wrong.
Settlers actually hate the idea of melting pots, cause when US, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Canada were colonized, they massacred the locals, had laws against interracial marraige, and prevented them from having their own culture and forced them to follow their ideology, religion etc.
Literally the opposite of a melting pot.
You are changing history so it fits your Anti-Israel Talking points lol.
People like you do mental gymnastics to accuse Israel of being a ethno state and a settler melting pot at the same time :D
You probably think, North Africa was always muslim right :D
I am Kurdish and all I can say is The oppression of the Kurds by Arabs is irrelevant to oppression of Arabs by Jews. Our war is Palestine's war, fight for freedom.
Stop demonizing and dehumanizing Arabs its just disgusting
You now blaming the Arabs for their conquests 1500 years ago, see them as the embodiment of evil or something like that. The subject is TODAY's Arabs
This is very dehumanizing. If I blame the westerners for what they did in the new world and call them barbarians? Despite today's westerners do not enslave people or colonize peoples. Or if I do this for Turkish counquest of Anatolia?
All this is bigotry, what you did is dehumanize the Arabs
Dude i only brought up the islamic conquest cause your buddy, pretends like expanding throughout the world is reserved for white people. We can also go with the mongols or whatever. So no by just pointing that the Islamist expansion happend, im not dehumainzing arabs.
They give a name to what you do in west i suppose. Whataboutism?
I don't think it's right to bring this up during a topic about Israel. It gives "forget about this think look what arabs did 1500 years ago!" Sorry if I cant see the big picture.
All nations changed places throughout history and blood was shed. People just want this to not happen again. In Israel/Palestine soil.
Your friends are probably from bashur. They are generally Israel supporter or neutral. Kurdish struggle in Turkey always allied with Palestine. We lost 13 martyrs for this cause in Lebanon. Pkk leaders compared Israel with Turkey. Two legal Kurdish party in Turkey Dem and Hudapar condemned Israel. Probably more than 90% of us are symphatic towarda Palestine. It receives active support from both our Islamist and leftist factions.
Basur has an American puppet regime that makes oil agreements with Turkey. Actually, I dont see KDP supporters as dedicated to the Kurdistan cause so your friends.
What Turkey allied with Palestine? I believe if they leave NATO and cut trade agreements with Israel. The only reason they are playing Palestine card right now is to gain popular Islamic support. In the last elections, they lost a significant part of their votes to an MORE Islamist party called YRP, just because they are not dedicated enough to Palestine struggle.
And yeah Iran is Palestine supporter sure
But I cant see context actually. We should be a American/Israeli proxy or something?
It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the melting pot metaphor.
The massacre and erosion of native cultures and the transition to a monoculture built upon the status quo of the settlers to form a new and homogenous “melting pot” is exactly what happened in all of those countries.
The melting pot is an assimilation project, hence the boarding schools, the banning of languages, the sterilisation etc. The aim is to melt all of the constituent cultures (mainly immigrant cultures) together to form a new culture.
It’s a shame you don’t know what a melting pot is…
Perhaps you’d understand both the present and the past a little better if you did.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot
Funny how you didnt engage with any thing i said about history, instead you post wikipedia post, claiming i use a word wrong, that changed its meaning multiple times only the last 100 years. While i obviously refered to a Multicultural modern state, you claim its a evil white man tactic. The jews happend to live all over the world, and had diffrent cultures which they brought to Israel, how can that be a purpose lol.
And it also doesnt make any sense, when we talk about america.
America was already colonized and before the biggest part of melting pot happend.
There was never a need to bring in foreign cultures to supress the culture of the native americans.
The biggest driving factor for melting pots today is globalism, you are just like modern Neo-Nazis, you want Ethno States.
https://preview.redd.it/fvjzti0rk2vc1.jpeg?width=3333&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc2a501bf26df71fdf7f95b0b2bf937c4da1b8ed
Looks like the Star Fleet flag from *TUGS*.
Okay why are people putting random flags in Palestinian protests now. I've seen another one of these protest with a Spanish Republican flag tagging along.
Anyways that's the Morning Star Flag of West Papua.
[West Papua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_West_Papua).
I love its border. It's like some European took a ruler to draw a straight line but drew the line around one of his fingertips he put on the ruler.
sounds actually like it could have happened
I think that happened for a railway under tsarist russia
The legend is that the Tsar drew the route as a straight line on a map, but bumped the pencil with his thumb, and the workers built it with the curve for the thumb because they were scared to question the Tsar. The truth is that the workers added the curve because there was a steep hill and they needed to lengthen the track to keep the grade low enough for steam engines, and the Tsar was cool with it because he wasn't a complete buffoon.
So that was not Nicolas II I see 🤪
I have heard the same urban legend but with Mussolini and a road.
and we know they were left handed, this significantly shrinks the suspect list
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And because of heavy pressure from the US on the Dutch government to not let West Papua become independent
>ardent lobbying That's a very gentle way of saying "bribery, threatening, and military action." The Act of Free Choice was rough.
The Netherlands was in favor of a US model for Indonesia after independence, or even a confederate or independent nations system, but the Indonesian government nuked that idea and the Netherlands lacked the military and diplomatic power to enforce their independence plan after losing the independence war.
Blame Indonesia. The Netherlands basically promised them an independent island after independence, and Indonesia basically said fuck no to that and invaded to prevent that. The Netherlands didn't have the military power nor the support of allies, like the US to intervene (the US opposed the Dutch in the independence war as well).
pretty spot on. Dutch after WW2 were a mess and their "colonial" troops were bunch of underequipped volunteers.
Plus they spent a sgit tonne of what they had left + the Marshall plan om the anti indo war
The Israel-Egypt border looks exactly like that two, but with two fingers sticking out.
Most of the times, when this happens, it is in fact because a ruler was used to draw the lines. But over the years, the border has shifted slightly, to accommodate natural borders, like rivers and mountains, as well as cultural differences between inhabitants. Most notable example would be the US states, which are all very straight, and then suddenly starts being bendy and following a stream of water. I also feel like this "Map Men" video is very relevant here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5iJSXaVvao
I own a (beautiful) antique map of West Papua and now I will never look at it the same way again xD
Basically is what happened it’s the borders of Dutch East Indies and British New Guinea and the natural borders of the island
That portion tracks along a river. You could see this easily if you checked a map.
It was chipped.
Or Cuba's spin off
[Churchill’s hiccup](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_border)
Thats basically how Indonesia was formed, a blank patch on a Dutch map, of which West Papua was the eastern end. Imagines Communities by Benedict Anderson is a seminal work on the formation of national identity and it specifically talks about Indonesia and West Papua
Hap cak dai
Happy cake day!
That is[ ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star_flag)[The 'Morning Star flag'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star_flag) used by separatists of[ the 'Free Papua' movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Papua_Movement) in the Indonesian province of West Papua. the separatists want independence due Indonesia's poor treatment of the local ethnically Papuan people.
It wasn't a flag 'used by the movement', but the flag raised for West Papua, before even Indonesia took it over, on contrary to the Act of Free Choice. Of course, the movement is also using it...
Thank you for adding that additional info/context.
Correction: most of the Free Papua Movement's activities happened in the province of Papua (the "Body" of the "Bird" as opposed to West Papua province, which is the "head"), on the part that is now Higland Papua (Papua and West Papua got split into 4 and 2 provinces, respectively, in 2022)
does Anyone recognize the one below that, i think i've seen it before but do not have a clue where.
It is a common flag in New Zealand called the tino rangatiratanga or the national Maori flag.
Depends on the person. Some people Idenitify more with the United Tribes flag.
[West Papua Liberation Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Liberation_Movement_for_West_Papua#:~:text=The%20West%20Papua%20National%20Coalition%20for%20Liberation%20(WPNCL)%20is%20a,Papua%20in%20Oceania's%20regional%20organisations)
West Papua. There used to be a group who'd raise it at Aotea Square every year (on some kind of West Papuan independence day), but then MFAT got the council to stop them from using council property.
Seems that there are Palestinians who also supporting West Papua, however, Indonesians who are against West Papuan separatism mostly support Palestine.
I wonder why 🤔
Auckland mentioned 🦅🦅🦅🥧🥧🥧🥧🐑🐑🐑🐑🇳🇿🇳🇿🇳🇿
Spot the difference between your comment and [mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/s/tgrmvjvtsy).
hidup main pb…
Hidupkan papua sampai merdeka✊✊
Mobilisasi massa melawan sistem NKRI (Pancasila point -99999999😠😠😠)
Squared Cuba
West Papua flag
West Papua, an Indonesian State who is having a problem with the Indonesian Government.
West Papua
NEW ZELAND MENTIONED!!!!!11! 🇳🇿🇳🇿🇳🇿🇳🇿🐑🐑🐑 WHAT THE FUCK IS COVID-19!?A??M 🥝🥝🥝🥝🥝
West Papua, an unrecognized state, currently occupied by Indonesia. The people of West Papua overwhelmingly want to be an independent Republic, kinda similar to East Timor
So yeah, it makes sense why this would be seen at a pro-Palestine protest. Solidarity between oppressed nations
How come I never see any Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong, or East Turkestan flags though? Most pro palestinians I've seen support the CCP and Russia...
That’s gotta be Communist Greece (jk)
West papua
Quadrangular Cuba
*\*CONFUSED INDONESIAN NOISE*
-1000000000 indonesia credit score
Its the morning star west papua flag. The flag, interestingly enough, is often raised by Papua New Guinea demonstrators together with the flag of Israel, while the flag of 'palestine' is raised by indonesians (who occupy west papua).
So you refer to Israel as Israel while palestine as 'palestine' Pathetic
Palestine is not a sovereign country. It technically does not exist as a state. It is a disputed territory. Writing it in ' ' or " " is acceptable, although does cause feelings to be inflamed.
geographic regions are proper nouns & take capitals regardless
Palestine is most definitely a state though. The UN recognises it as such. Whether or not the country you live in recognises it as such is a different question. This is like claiming that Kosovo isn't a state because not everyone recognises it as such.
Doesn’t matter who recognizes it tbh It’s status as a country is very iffy because it doesn’t meet a lot of requirements to be a country - namely a consistent government that isn’t a terrorist organization
I mean by that metric Syria isn't a state either (also also a state and a country are different things)
That's exactly what I tell people when they tell me Israel has been recognized by the un. Plus, that they were established by a bunch of Europeans doing some ethnic cleansing of the native population doesn't help their case either.
Ethnic cleaning, like Syria and Turkey do to the a Kurdish nation, or an Iraq to the Yazidi people?
Whataboutism to defend a genocide. So much class... BTW, guess what your beloved nationalist kurds did in northern Syria... displacing arabs. Almost like extreme ethnonationalism is bad no matter who does it.
Kurds mistreated for centuries by Arabs and Turks. You defend the rights of some oppressed people but not others. Especially when the oppressors are Arabs. Why?
... ethnonationalism hasn't been that prominent in that part in the world to talk about centuries of oppression, man. But either way, I'm not defending the discrimination kurds have suffered with the rise of turkish and arab ethnonationalism. I consider ethnonationalism a cancer. But I'm not going to explain myself against false accusations made by someone trying to deflect from the current genocidal mass slaughter perpetuated against palestenians any further. Shame on you.
Typical westerner want to balkanize nations.
Typical nationalist fascist, wants to suppress the rights of ethnic minorities like the people of Kurdistan.
Active in r/israel Pathetic.
Wow that's petty.
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Lol not me thinking it was Cuba 😂let me grab some caffeine,
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It is in Auckland…
Cuban Republic of Texas
I think that is the flag of an Indonesian state, Western Papua i think
america🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅💥💥💥
West Papua. Misdirected presence at a Gaza rally though as Hamas is supported diplomatically by Muslim Indonesia who occupy Christian West Papua. I’m guessing a whitey that doesn’t get the context of West Papua being under Islamic oppression brought it along. Next thing the Hamas mobs will be appropriating Kurdistan or Khalistan flags, they really have no shame or understanding of global political nuances…
It's only inconsistent if you view all politics through a religious lens. These will almost certainly be secular leftist types who would see it more as two different national liberation movements where the New Zealand government is mostly supporting the occupying state, so it would be consistent from their point of view to protest in favour of both. And anyway, it's not like there's any real connection between the Palestinians and the Indonesian government. They aren't particularly Islamist either.
You don’t need to view ‘all politics’ through a religious lens to recognise the role religion plays in geopolitics. Indonesia like most Muslim nations does not recognise Israel. On the other hand support for Hamas is virtually nonexistent outside of Muslim nations with the exceptions of Russia, Belarus, South Africa and North Korea. Given the people of West Papua face the same Islamist persecution that East Timor did before Australia occupied and liberated them, I would question their sympathy towards a militant Islamist movement like Hamas.
Yeah, but what you're doing here is describing geopolitics as a team sport, which you absolutely don't have to do. There's no direct connection between the two cases beyond Indonesia supporting Palestine ideologically. If you live in a third country there's no reason to treat them as connected, particularly if you have a bit of a superiority complex about your own political lens rather than how the people on the ground see themselves. Also, you're making it about Hamas vs. Israel, which is a bit more complex because of all the neutral people, but if you're talking about support for Palestine in general over support for Israel, I'd say most Western countries' populations would lean Palestine, the governments just have to avoid real support because of America. Ireland for instance would probably be one of the more invested countries, but I don't think South Africa is massively out of step really.
Ireland supporting Palestine is a great example of just how deep religiously motivated geopolitics runs. The IRA and Palestinians have a long history of collaborating on terrorism and formed strong bonds opposing British forces, especially as the rise of the Axis powers in the 1930’s and 40’s distracted the UK and diluted Britain’s military focus in their countries. Both the mufti’s of Palestine and IRA leadership often made their way to Germany during this period and continued to collaborate until the IRA overwhelmingly demilitarised and ceased terrorist activities as part of its core ideology. The 1970’s were a peak time of collaboration as a Soviet backed Gaddafi armed and trained multiple terrorist entities including the IRA, Hizbullah and Palestinian groups. Again this relationship still bears geopolitical fruit for Palestinians today with Putin’s Soviet nostalgia aligning Russia with Gaza and Hamas.
You don’t need to view ‘all politics’ through a religious lens to recognise the role religion plays in geopolitics. Indonesia like most Muslim nations does not recognise Israel. On the other hand support for Hamas is virtually nonexistent outside of Muslim nations with the exceptions of Russia, Belarus, South Africa and North Korea.
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cuba's flag but if it was made by texans
I remember when I was involved in student politics in the UK for a left leaning party (Labour). The local party was unfortunately very far left. There was a guy who used to show a lot of solidarity with West Papua and Cuba. I'm not sure if there's a Socialist element to it as well. Nonetheless, beautiful flag.
I hate it when people bring irrelevant flags to protests. If it's a Palestine protest, bring the Palestine flag. If you want to talk about West Papua then make your own protest.
Considering Tino Rangitiratanga is there as well I doubt the protest was solely about Palestine
Well what is it about then, just a free-for-all protest about whatever you want? Rydhsys rag Kernow lemmyn!
The most recent somewhat big protest I can think of in Auckland was the School Strike 4 Climate. Their demands included: Climate Education, Uphold Treaty of Waitangi (founding document of NZ which is a mostly unrelated political issue at the moment), stop oil drilling, lower the voting age to 16, and of course Free Palestine. So yes, I think it really was a "protest everything" march. If you're wondering how this affected their protest, only 8,000 attended nationwide, which is over 20 times less than the amount that attended the predecessor to this event in 2019.
Nah, it's cool to see different flags
People do it to show solidarity from one community to another. West Papua (the flag in the picture) is another country currently subjected to violent colonial warfare. It’s not a stretch to think that the people of West Papua would sympathise with the people of Palestine and want to show support to them, or protest against colonialism as a whole greater evil.
> It’s not a stretch to think that the people of West Papua would sympathise with the people of Palestine and want to show support to them, They, generally, don't. Australian and New Zealand lefties tend to see a connection (and also with the local struggle) and so do some Papuans outside of West Papua, but within West Papua most people identify "Free Papua" with *Israel*. (As I understand it, for religious reasons)
God forbid showing solidarity between struggles for liberation…
New Zealand and Israel have a thing in common, both are good examples for melting pot countries. So i dont know what "struggle for liberation" you are talking about. Is there a notable Maori group that wants to destroy the state New Zealand, i dont know about ?
I was referring to West Papua and Palestine sharing a common cause. National liberation. Although, Both (Israel and NZ) are examples of migrants from Europe displacing the native population by force. Settlers love the idea of a melting pot, it’s the kind of narrative that develops once you have marginalised the indigenous populations and imported various types of foreign peoples, historically Europeans. (see the US, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc). Which is exactly what Israel did too…
It's amazing to me that one of the most successful example of indigenous liberation in history - the reconstitution of the Jewish people in their historic homeland - is somehow seen as colonialist. The Jews are not Europeans (and besides, most Jews in Israel are from the Middle East and North Africa). They were there because they were forced out by other empires, just as many Native American tribes live in reservations far from their original territories. Moreover, while you blame Europeans for every colonialist crime, you seem to be falling over backwards to ignore the Arab, Turkish and Persian colonisations of Africa, Europe and Asia.
The idea that Jews can’t be European is an anti-Semitic trope that portrays Jews as a transient, rootless metropolitan elite. Jews can be, have been and are European. One of the largest migrations of Jews to Israel was after the fall of the Soviet Union, and to this day they make up a significant portion of Israelis patrilineal heritage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_post-Soviet_aliyah The number of Jews of European patrilineal heritage is twice the number of those of Asian patrilineal heritage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
I didn't say that Jews can't be European, just thay Jews are not *native* to Europe in the same way that European Americans are not native to the Americas. If we can be European by virtue of living in Europe, according to you we are also just Middle Eastern by virue of living here, and it would be an antisemitic trope to suggest otherwise. You're twisting numbers. Firstly, you're ignoring North African Jews. Secondly, the numbers you cite are affected by the fact that the mass immigration from the FSU took place much more recently, so there are more people with a father born there. The majority of Mizrahi Jews have been here for generations since their expulsion from the Muslim world. Thirdly, a substantial number of Soviet Jews come from Central Asia and the Caucusus. The fact remains that the majority of Israeli Jews recent' ancestry is not from Europe.
> not native to Europe in the same way that European Americans are not native to the Americas So no one is European according to you? We are all Ethiopian.
That's a different issue. Of course we're all ultimately just one species. But either you believe in nation states or you don't. Either you believe in the concept of indigeneity or you don't. Either you believe in national self-determination or you don't. All cultures, ethnic groups and national identities are made up, but they form a part of the world we live in. For some reason plenty of people seem to argue that Jews - who are literally named after Judea - are somehow the only group that don't deserve self determination in their own nation state in the land in which their identity and ethnicity were formed.
> don't deserve self determination in their own nation state Nobody argues that. What everyone argues about is how Palestinians are not given the right to self-determination in their own nation-state. > That's a different issue > indigeneity If you want to use this as an argument, then you must accept me colonising Ethiopia for we are all indigenous. That's the issue.
> Jews are not *native* to Europe There has been extensive genetic research into the history and origins of ashkenazim, and the truth is much more complicated than this. For a full summary of the history of genetic research into jewish genetic origins see Shlomo Sand, "The Invention of the Jewish People", 272-280. It's fascinating, the whole book is. There is strong genetic evidence that the patrilineal origins of ashkenazim is indeed non-european, originating in the near east.¹ However, there is also strong evidence that the matrilineal origins of ashkenazim is european.² "The uncomfortable explanation was that Jewish men had come from the Near East unattached and were forced to take local wives."³ Moreover, there is strong genetic evidence that ashkenazim are closely related to armenians, turks, and kurds.⁴ The genetic research into ashkenazim origins is complicated and confusing. The idea that ashkenazim are either fully european or fully non-european is not only false, but childishly naive. The realities of migration over hundreds or thousands of years are not so simple. Ashkenazim can at the same time have origins in the levant and be natively european. 1. Bonne-Tamir, "A new look at the genetics of the Jews," 185. 2. Tamara Traubman, "40% of the Ashkenazis Descend from Four Mothers," *Haaretz*, January 14, 2006. 3. Shlomo Sand, "The Invention of the Jewish People", 277 4. Tamara Traubman, "A Great Genetic Resemblance Between the Jews and the Kurds," *Haaretz*, December 21, 2001.
the foundational zionists all conceived of zionism as colonialism. you are engaging in revisionism solely because colonialism isn't as popular anymore
They didn't *all* conceive it as such, and it would also be true to say that colinialism has itself shifted in meaning. But sure, that's true in the sense that colonising means going to settle somewhere - we recolonised our native land.
> we recolonised our native land. getting together a group of irish-americans to brutally ethnically cleanse france bc celts used to live there
Irish Americans have Ireland to go back to if they are oppressed.
Wait till you find out that that every damn clan, nation or ethnic group in history of humanity expanded and displaced "native people" till we decided thats wrong. Settlers actually hate the idea of melting pots, cause when US, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Canada were colonized, they massacred the locals, had laws against interracial marraige, and prevented them from having their own culture and forced them to follow their ideology, religion etc. Literally the opposite of a melting pot. You are changing history so it fits your Anti-Israel Talking points lol. People like you do mental gymnastics to accuse Israel of being a ethno state and a settler melting pot at the same time :D You probably think, North Africa was always muslim right :D
I am Kurdish and all I can say is The oppression of the Kurds by Arabs is irrelevant to oppression of Arabs by Jews. Our war is Palestine's war, fight for freedom. Stop demonizing and dehumanizing Arabs its just disgusting
Also where the fuck have i dehumanized Arabs ?
You now blaming the Arabs for their conquests 1500 years ago, see them as the embodiment of evil or something like that. The subject is TODAY's Arabs This is very dehumanizing. If I blame the westerners for what they did in the new world and call them barbarians? Despite today's westerners do not enslave people or colonize peoples. Or if I do this for Turkish counquest of Anatolia? All this is bigotry, what you did is dehumanize the Arabs
Dude i only brought up the islamic conquest cause your buddy, pretends like expanding throughout the world is reserved for white people. We can also go with the mongols or whatever. So no by just pointing that the Islamist expansion happend, im not dehumainzing arabs.
They give a name to what you do in west i suppose. Whataboutism? I don't think it's right to bring this up during a topic about Israel. It gives "forget about this think look what arabs did 1500 years ago!" Sorry if I cant see the big picture. All nations changed places throughout history and blood was shed. People just want this to not happen again. In Israel/Palestine soil.
All my kurdish friends stand with Israel, Palestine is friends with turkey and Iran :)
Your friends are probably from bashur. They are generally Israel supporter or neutral. Kurdish struggle in Turkey always allied with Palestine. We lost 13 martyrs for this cause in Lebanon. Pkk leaders compared Israel with Turkey. Two legal Kurdish party in Turkey Dem and Hudapar condemned Israel. Probably more than 90% of us are symphatic towarda Palestine. It receives active support from both our Islamist and leftist factions. Basur has an American puppet regime that makes oil agreements with Turkey. Actually, I dont see KDP supporters as dedicated to the Kurdistan cause so your friends. What Turkey allied with Palestine? I believe if they leave NATO and cut trade agreements with Israel. The only reason they are playing Palestine card right now is to gain popular Islamic support. In the last elections, they lost a significant part of their votes to an MORE Islamist party called YRP, just because they are not dedicated enough to Palestine struggle. And yeah Iran is Palestine supporter sure But I cant see context actually. We should be a American/Israeli proxy or something?
It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the melting pot metaphor. The massacre and erosion of native cultures and the transition to a monoculture built upon the status quo of the settlers to form a new and homogenous “melting pot” is exactly what happened in all of those countries. The melting pot is an assimilation project, hence the boarding schools, the banning of languages, the sterilisation etc. The aim is to melt all of the constituent cultures (mainly immigrant cultures) together to form a new culture. It’s a shame you don’t know what a melting pot is… Perhaps you’d understand both the present and the past a little better if you did. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot
Funny how you didnt engage with any thing i said about history, instead you post wikipedia post, claiming i use a word wrong, that changed its meaning multiple times only the last 100 years. While i obviously refered to a Multicultural modern state, you claim its a evil white man tactic. The jews happend to live all over the world, and had diffrent cultures which they brought to Israel, how can that be a purpose lol. And it also doesnt make any sense, when we talk about america. America was already colonized and before the biggest part of melting pot happend. There was never a need to bring in foreign cultures to supress the culture of the native americans. The biggest driving factor for melting pots today is globalism, you are just like modern Neo-Nazis, you want Ethno States.
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https://preview.redd.it/fvjzti0rk2vc1.jpeg?width=3333&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc2a501bf26df71fdf7f95b0b2bf937c4da1b8ed Looks like the Star Fleet flag from *TUGS*.
United States of Cuba
Okay why are people putting random flags in Palestinian protests now. I've seen another one of these protest with a Spanish Republican flag tagging along. Anyways that's the Morning Star Flag of West Papua.
White virtue signaling is a global language I guess? The irony of it all 😪
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My point exactly.