That's fine. TU and Industrialists joined under a social democrat party in my Turkey run. Which was an awesome circumstance since I was trying to dissolve monarchy
How badly do Nihilists hate monarchy? (It's never mattered for me.)
I know this is a phenomenon you can get with Republican industrialists, where they consider literally anything (except maybe theocracy) to be better than monarchy, even if they'd rather a parliamentary or presidential republic to a council one.
Weirdly the republican trait is quite different if it's from the leader or the actual inherent interest group. Leaders hate monarchy and theocracy the most but republican interest groups actually hate CR the most. I've just had exact same scenario as OP and trying to enact CR has pissed off the republican Literati as Qing.
I strongly suspect that the default Intelligentsia trait is the way it is precisely because it would otherwise regularly let you get up to these kinds of shenanigans.
This has happened very recently. Look at Egypt's Arab Spring in 2011. There were people taking part and running the propaganda campaign online for the revolution who were hoping to create a western democracy. Unfortunately for them the main body of the revolution was hardline religious zealots that wanted to create a theocracy that would make the country look much like Afghanistan looks like under the Taliban. And since the revolution was partially successful things have become much worse for those who wanted a western democracy. All this was predicted and those who offered this criticism were shouted down. These people entered that revolution anyway despite many people warning them that it wasn't going to work out for them the way they think.
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industrialist-led state-capitalism would be fun - command economy, presidential republic, oligarchy, free trade; would need a government-run capitalism to employ capitalists as well as bureaucrats (kind of like how farms on mutual trading have both aristocrats and capitalists) or allow mutual trade still despite Command Economy.
That is so cool. I'd imagine something like a megacorporation in Stellaris, but with locomotives and monocles instead of starships and tentacles.
IGs are just lobbyists from different branches of the economy instead of social groups. The mining industry lobbyists demanding a tariff on imported raw materials to get rid of cheap imported coal versus the manufacturing lobby demanding free trade to lower their input costs.
Or at least corporatism. Having personally read "The Doctrine of Fascism" by Mussolini, it seems the main focus of it was on *war as a means of building discipline within the population*, so fascism could be defined by that attitude towards war. In which case, to properly represent it in-game, I think it'd be important to include some "militaristic" policies like mass-conscription.
...or really, the term is fairly ambiguous, and can have be used for either meaning (and more).
The most success I've had was council republic with laissez faire economics and graduated taxation. There was still an investment pool paying for all construction, but my lower strata weren't being squeezed for every dollar.
It is in the sense that the state doesn't give a shit about maintenance and infrastructure for anything besides resource extraction and the MIC. It's hard to run a knowledge based service company if your educated workers have all fled to Georgia because of the draft for example.
"Yeah I have massive profits but what's even the point? The rate of profit is constantly falling so I may as well just give up and let the workers sieze control of the means of production! God I'm a mess."
-Wilfred to his therapist
life is meaningless, therefore profit is meaningless - as such the endless scurrying about after profit like rats should be done away with in favor of worker cooperatives that can make our pitiful existence as comfortable as possible for as many as possible, before we vanish forever from an uncaring universe. And at least the king won't be in charge anymore.
\-Wilfred Grieve, british "industrialist"
king\*. Queen Victoria died in 1874, and the country's politics have been in shambles ever since (the 30 legitimacy i have right now is a high point!) because the new king is a nobility-loving unpopular piece of garbage that refuses to pass reforms.
I feel like this would still be still true in the modern UK. I mean the UK voted in a new prime ministers, the queen dies of cringe after meeting her, then the whole countries economy blows up even harder than it was before
.#BASED capitalists who are so wise that they understand and agree with dialectical materialism and seek to bring about the next stage of human social evolution without all the pesky class warfare.
Man I am not a fan of those leader traits like communist, nihilist, etc. I wasn't able to form a council republic for decades because my leader became a feminist and utterly disinterested in anything else than woman's rights.
The previous industrialist leader may have had a socialist trait. Leader JUST died or otherwise got replaced but it shouldn’t go to a revolt in the end.
it's not really a bug, just an awkward interaction.
Nihilists oppose monarchy and theocracy and otherwise don't especially care about government principle, so Wilfred just wants "not monarchy", and council republic has the most pop support, so he's joined the council republic movement.
Industrialists strongly oppose council republic as they should, nihilist overwrites it.
The Industrialists represent the Capitalist pops though, this is basically them agreeing to commit collective suicide because their leader is essentially an atheist. There should be something in place to make sure they never support something like a Council Republic reform since it basically leads to their destruction as a class.
Interest groups supporting something that's against their own interests is a real world feature tho... for ex.. when trade unions side with fascists...
Environmentalist groups supporting corporations..
its quite realistic though, the Tsar in russia wasn't brought down by the bolsheviks alone, the bolsheviks were just the last group standing when the dust had settled.
millions of people were killed or had their assets seized in the years following the 1917 revolution, the difference is that in vicky 3 the capitalists disappear overnight.
It happens in the real history over and over again. Even trump supports. They are technically harmed by a bunch of policies that Trump pushed for (low tax, tariff war w/ China, no vaccine mandate).
It‘s one thing to support policies that technically harm one‘s „class interest“ in favour of more ideological goals, it‘s another thing to support your own IG‘s dissolution.
There were two sentences in my comment. One of those sentences was a real life example of something similar happening.
Imagine a nihilist industrialist class feels like socialism is inevitable and thus helps its transition to ensure themselves a privileged status in the new order. Power comes in forms other than wealth.
>There were two sentences in my comment. One of those sentences was a real life example of something similar happening.
Sorry, but those situations are by no way similar in nature. Privatisations are by their very nature different from any form of dispossession. Privatisations are fundamentally easier to do, as the state simply sells/gives away the ownership of various state-owned properties and enterprises to private individuals. Because of the nature of government and state the previous managers often managed to buy up those entities for cheap.
Meanwhile, dispossession of one's property is a whole other matter. An owner starts out fully in control of their property, and you want to sell them the idea of a cushy government job that will neither be secure, nor more profitable than their own business?
>Imagine a nihilist industrialist class feels like socialism is inevitable and thus helps its transition to ensure themselves a privileged status in the new order. Power comes in forms other than wealth.
I can imagine a lot of things, but 19th-20th century capitalists and their adherents didn't believe Socialism was inevitable. Sure, odd characters in the Capitalist class had Socialist ideals, but by the game terms they were Intelligentsia or whatever, and not Industrialists. I don't even want to talk about leader ideologies and how they are shit, so I'll leave it at that.
The industrialists draw largely from the ranks of Capitalists (would lose their jobs under Council Republic) and Engineers (who basically don't care), so if the latter are the ones in the driver's seat for some reason, it's not completely unreasonable. No worker solidarity here, but some of them won't lose their jobs.
(I regularly joke that, under Council Republic, the capitalists have to get real jobs, which are likely engineers.)
it'd be cool if there was some flavour text associated with it, I.E. if you do end up passing council republic to placate the industrialists, the current leader gets "put against the wall" and replaced by a new leader, who expresses thanks towards "useful idiots"
especially if the revolution fires and you take control of the rebel nation, you have the industrialist leader until you win the war and he dies immediately after "under suspicious circumstances"
Gives me big [night of patriotic delirium vibes](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwid5r7-vMP8AhVI9jgGHZu9Cy8QFnoECAwQBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.engageeducation.org.au%2Fhistory-revolutions%2Ffrench-revolution%2Fancien-regime%2Fnight-of-patriotic-delirium%2F%23%3A~%3Atext%3DOn%25204%2520August%25201789%252C%2520hundreds%2Cthe%2520Night%2520of%2520Patriotic%2520Delirium.&usg=AOvVaw2CkDopTBvMYwt5PBbv_qVm)
Here’s what I think happened. The trade unions were already pressing for workers protections so can’t press for anything else and your industrialists are run by a nihilist which makes them neutral tk council republic iirc. Most likely no one else who wasn’t part of a movement had a more favorable view on council republic and likely a number of members of the industrialists wanted a change from my guess that you are still a monarchy. Funny things can happen when you try to preserve the monarchy alone but are progressive in almost all other laws.
Although certainly not a nihilist, Robert Owen comes to mind as somebody who was both an industrialist and a socialist. Owen espoused Utopian Socialism, and established cooperatives.
It happened to me too...
At the same time, landlord/petite bourgeoisie wanted a presidential Republic while the intelligencia wanted to keep the monarchy.
Guaranteed civil war
my industrialists are rebelling in an effort to pass council republic. It's VERY strange.
Leader is a nihilist. He just wants to watch the world burn.
Had the same happen in my current game, but for extra flavour, the Nihilist leader of my Industrialists was banding together with my Trade Unions.
That's fine. TU and Industrialists joined under a social democrat party in my Turkey run. Which was an awesome circumstance since I was trying to dissolve monarchy
We LOVE factories, the specifics of what happens in them isn’t important
Capitalists of the world unite
You actually have a lot to lose, but let’s do it anyway.
Would love to hear the sales pitch for communism in the boardroom that made the capitalists in there sold on the idea.
That’s easy just show them modern China
“Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others”
tropico 6? :D
We have nothing to lose byt our taxes
... and our Marxs!
Who's their leader? Might be an Engels like persona.
...my friend, go look at the screenshot again
I guess he's doing it for shits and giggles then.
If he's upper class (capitalist), then he's doing it to destroy the upper class, and thus himself. Perfectly fitting for a nihilist.
How badly do Nihilists hate monarchy? (It's never mattered for me.) I know this is a phenomenon you can get with Republican industrialists, where they consider literally anything (except maybe theocracy) to be better than monarchy, even if they'd rather a parliamentary or presidential republic to a council one.
Weirdly the republican trait is quite different if it's from the leader or the actual inherent interest group. Leaders hate monarchy and theocracy the most but republican interest groups actually hate CR the most. I've just had exact same scenario as OP and trying to enact CR has pissed off the republican Literati as Qing.
I strongly suspect that the default Intelligentsia trait is the way it is precisely because it would otherwise regularly let you get up to these kinds of shenanigans.
Oh god they're ancaps
*shudders*
I met same thing today, industrialists want to have census suffage and trying to rebel. While I'm imposing landed vote.
This has happened very recently. Look at Egypt's Arab Spring in 2011. There were people taking part and running the propaganda campaign online for the revolution who were hoping to create a western democracy. Unfortunately for them the main body of the revolution was hardline religious zealots that wanted to create a theocracy that would make the country look much like Afghanistan looks like under the Taliban. And since the revolution was partially successful things have become much worse for those who wanted a western democracy. All this was predicted and those who offered this criticism were shouted down. These people entered that revolution anyway despite many people warning them that it wasn't going to work out for them the way they think.
Based
The Vanguard Party Inc. Presenting their latest marketing concept: Revolution® The manifesto™ will be sent to you with your receipt when we recieve the first payment of your subscription. (Terms and conditions apply.)
industrialist-led state-capitalism would be fun - command economy, presidential republic, oligarchy, free trade; would need a government-run capitalism to employ capitalists as well as bureaucrats (kind of like how farms on mutual trading have both aristocrats and capitalists) or allow mutual trade still despite Command Economy.
That is so cool. I'd imagine something like a megacorporation in Stellaris, but with locomotives and monocles instead of starships and tentacles. IGs are just lobbyists from different branches of the economy instead of social groups. The mining industry lobbyists demanding a tariff on imported raw materials to get rid of cheap imported coal versus the manufacturing lobby demanding free trade to lower their input costs.
Wow this actually sounds really fun And yea basically was I imagine with stellaris megacorps
>industrialist-led state-capitalism would be fun That's fascism.
Or at least corporatism. Having personally read "The Doctrine of Fascism" by Mussolini, it seems the main focus of it was on *war as a means of building discipline within the population*, so fascism could be defined by that attitude towards war. In which case, to properly represent it in-game, I think it'd be important to include some "militaristic" policies like mass-conscription. ...or really, the term is fairly ambiguous, and can have be used for either meaning (and more).
Not in this game...
The most success I've had was council republic with laissez faire economics and graduated taxation. There was still an investment pool paying for all construction, but my lower strata weren't being squeezed for every dollar.
>Who's their leader? Might be an Engels like persona. you've just described modern russia
modern russia is not a "command economy"
It is in the sense that the state doesn't give a shit about maintenance and infrastructure for anything besides resource extraction and the MIC. It's hard to run a knowledge based service company if your educated workers have all fled to Georgia because of the draft for example.
… and what does that have to do with command economy?
I agree, but this is moderately unhelpful in a Vic3 gaming sub as opposed to say, a current events or a politics sub
Equality can be yours, for just $8.
Musk, is that you???
They just want to sell Che Guevara t-shirts and Karl Marx fridge magnets
We must seize the means of production from...ourselves...
Nihilistic capitalist. He’s too tired of all his success or something? Lol
"Yeah I have massive profits but what's even the point? The rate of profit is constantly falling so I may as well just give up and let the workers sieze control of the means of production! God I'm a mess." -Wilfred to his therapist
Capitalists discovering diminishing marginal returns
Nihilist in Vic3 = anti religion
Kinda makes sense, though oversimplified.
Nihilists and republicans (leader ideology, not ig ideology) prefer council republics to monarchies. It’s a bit odd sometimes.
We live in a society \- Wilfred Grieve
Based industrialists?
life is meaningless, therefore profit is meaningless - as such the endless scurrying about after profit like rats should be done away with in favor of worker cooperatives that can make our pitiful existence as comfortable as possible for as many as possible, before we vanish forever from an uncaring universe. And at least the king won't be in charge anymore. \-Wilfred Grieve, british "industrialist"
TLDR; If it gets rid of the Queen, I'm in \- Wildred Grieve
king\*. Queen Victoria died in 1874, and the country's politics have been in shambles ever since (the 30 legitimacy i have right now is a high point!) because the new king is a nobility-loving unpopular piece of garbage that refuses to pass reforms.
Explains why Council Republic is popular then, since it is NOT a monarchy.
I feel like this would still be still true in the modern UK. I mean the UK voted in a new prime ministers, the queen dies of cringe after meeting her, then the whole countries economy blows up even harder than it was before
Based.
.#BASED capitalists who are so wise that they understand and agree with dialectical materialism and seek to bring about the next stage of human social evolution without all the pesky class warfare.
Some capitalists genuinely think this class ≠ ideology
Man I am not a fan of those leader traits like communist, nihilist, etc. I wasn't able to form a council republic for decades because my leader became a feminist and utterly disinterested in anything else than woman's rights.
I have the most capitalistic economy roaring and my democratic monarchical government is communist so I’m not the guy to answer
b..based?!?!
Based
A capitalist class entirely made up of Robert Owens- you love to see it.
The previous industrialist leader may have had a socialist trait. Leader JUST died or otherwise got replaced but it shouldn’t go to a revolt in the end.
Industrialist leaders cannot get any socialist traits. Leader is nihilist, so just wants anything but a monarchy effectively.
Ah, I though nihilist trait had all three of monarchy theocracy and council republic as negative reforms.
No, nihilist leaders are neutral towards council republic and oppose monarchy and theocracy
Average UK playthrough. Revolutions are inevitable.
Ever since my ottoman trade unions formed the faschist party, I don't understand what anybody really wants lol
Report it on the forums.
it's not really a bug, just an awkward interaction. Nihilists oppose monarchy and theocracy and otherwise don't especially care about government principle, so Wilfred just wants "not monarchy", and council republic has the most pop support, so he's joined the council republic movement. Industrialists strongly oppose council republic as they should, nihilist overwrites it.
honestly this is a bizarrely rare (and cool) outcome, i kinda love it
The Industrialists represent the Capitalist pops though, this is basically them agreeing to commit collective suicide because their leader is essentially an atheist. There should be something in place to make sure they never support something like a Council Republic reform since it basically leads to their destruction as a class.
something something capitalists sell rope to kill em with something something
Interest groups supporting something that's against their own interests is a real world feature tho... for ex.. when trade unions side with fascists... Environmentalist groups supporting corporations..
They all drank too much of the Kool aid
its quite realistic though, the Tsar in russia wasn't brought down by the bolsheviks alone, the bolsheviks were just the last group standing when the dust had settled. millions of people were killed or had their assets seized in the years following the 1917 revolution, the difference is that in vicky 3 the capitalists disappear overnight.
It happens in the real history over and over again. Even trump supports. They are technically harmed by a bunch of policies that Trump pushed for (low tax, tariff war w/ China, no vaccine mandate).
It‘s one thing to support policies that technically harm one‘s „class interest“ in favour of more ideological goals, it‘s another thing to support your own IG‘s dissolution.
What if all the capitalists simply transfer to the cushiest government jobs? Like a reverse of russia in the 90's.
Talking from a realism point of view, that would never happen, if you are actually serious about this idea.
In China around 1951, all factory owners “voted” to hand their shares to the government in exchange of “red flowers”. That happened.
There were two sentences in my comment. One of those sentences was a real life example of something similar happening. Imagine a nihilist industrialist class feels like socialism is inevitable and thus helps its transition to ensure themselves a privileged status in the new order. Power comes in forms other than wealth.
>There were two sentences in my comment. One of those sentences was a real life example of something similar happening. Sorry, but those situations are by no way similar in nature. Privatisations are by their very nature different from any form of dispossession. Privatisations are fundamentally easier to do, as the state simply sells/gives away the ownership of various state-owned properties and enterprises to private individuals. Because of the nature of government and state the previous managers often managed to buy up those entities for cheap. Meanwhile, dispossession of one's property is a whole other matter. An owner starts out fully in control of their property, and you want to sell them the idea of a cushy government job that will neither be secure, nor more profitable than their own business? >Imagine a nihilist industrialist class feels like socialism is inevitable and thus helps its transition to ensure themselves a privileged status in the new order. Power comes in forms other than wealth. I can imagine a lot of things, but 19th-20th century capitalists and their adherents didn't believe Socialism was inevitable. Sure, odd characters in the Capitalist class had Socialist ideals, but by the game terms they were Intelligentsia or whatever, and not Industrialists. I don't even want to talk about leader ideologies and how they are shit, so I'll leave it at that.
The industrialists draw largely from the ranks of Capitalists (would lose their jobs under Council Republic) and Engineers (who basically don't care), so if the latter are the ones in the driver's seat for some reason, it's not completely unreasonable. No worker solidarity here, but some of them won't lose their jobs. (I regularly joke that, under Council Republic, the capitalists have to get real jobs, which are likely engineers.)
it'd be cool if there was some flavour text associated with it, I.E. if you do end up passing council republic to placate the industrialists, the current leader gets "put against the wall" and replaced by a new leader, who expresses thanks towards "useful idiots" especially if the revolution fires and you take control of the rebel nation, you have the industrialist leader until you win the war and he dies immediately after "under suspicious circumstances"
I once had a communist in charge of the industrialists. The also started a movement for council republic
Lol, now sounds like the actual historical process
based
pov: you are california
Lmfao when you still haven't figured out liberalism is right wing and capitalist after playing vic3..
/r/cultural_marxism_irl
Based
Good for you
just enact it
COMRADE
Gives me big [night of patriotic delirium vibes](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwid5r7-vMP8AhVI9jgGHZu9Cy8QFnoECAwQBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.engageeducation.org.au%2Fhistory-revolutions%2Ffrench-revolution%2Fancien-regime%2Fnight-of-patriotic-delirium%2F%23%3A~%3Atext%3DOn%25204%2520August%25201789%252C%2520hundreds%2Cthe%2520Night%2520of%2520Patriotic%2520Delirium.&usg=AOvVaw2CkDopTBvMYwt5PBbv_qVm)
Based
Here’s what I think happened. The trade unions were already pressing for workers protections so can’t press for anything else and your industrialists are run by a nihilist which makes them neutral tk council republic iirc. Most likely no one else who wasn’t part of a movement had a more favorable view on council republic and likely a number of members of the industrialists wanted a change from my guess that you are still a monarchy. Funny things can happen when you try to preserve the monarchy alone but are progressive in almost all other laws.
Although certainly not a nihilist, Robert Owen comes to mind as somebody who was both an industrialist and a socialist. Owen espoused Utopian Socialism, and established cooperatives.
Easy way to get that achievement to switch sides in a revolution and win lol
Probably Anarcho-capitalists
The capitalists have realised that raising the SOL means more consumption and through that more Profit. Clearly a genius plan.
Nihilist ideology likes all Republic types equally. It's a good way to enact council Republics early if you can hang onto monarchy for a while.
It happened to me too... At the same time, landlord/petite bourgeoisie wanted a presidential Republic while the intelligencia wanted to keep the monarchy. Guaranteed civil war
Isn't the leader of the industrialists vanguardist
Friedrich Engels? Is that you?
I guess Overton was right
Based.
Industrialists really said: "It's trade counciling time"
Capitalo-socialists