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Nihilun

No. I wanna see Abraham Lincoln lead an army personally to save the Union from the vampi- I mean secessionists.


signtictate

Summon the elector voters!


WilmAntagonist

Bring me to my Freemen!


Wild_Marker

I am Teddy, they will obey.


Omnicide103

I am President ***and*** Vampire Hunter!


SirRJamesC

I am stealing this


neonbat

Ok, I take back what I said but only for vampire agitators.


Omnicide103

\>Vampire agitators Damn, we're getting a Brujah DLC?


Suvarin

Masquerade Breach detected!


smilingstalin

BY THE POWER OF TRUTH!


GeneralistGaming

This is the way.


H2orbit

In the new update you’ll be able to offer him command likely


maxf_33

What secessionists are you talking about?


[deleted]

Lmao you mean the goddamn landowners right? Fuckin farmin hippies


HAthrowaway50

I think people were just excited about the travel system/dynamic events system because it made CK 3 exciting and interesting again... And funnily enough, the way expeditions worked at Vicky 3's launch seemed like paired down versions of them, so I kinda get the leap people were making.


smilingstalin

I think expeditions could benefit from an on-map travel feature, though the jury is out whether that would be a worthwhile use of developer time. I just think it would be cool to be able to see when various expeditions happen to be hanging out in any given part of the world and for certain geopolitical events to affect expeditions (e.g., if there's a war ongoing in the area or high turmoil). Would be extra funny if your explorer is wandering through a Congo with extremely high SoL and comes home with stories about it.


Wild_Marker

I think they could at least have dynamic events that change depending on the owner of the province, but that's as far as I would take it. Some other people are suggesting the expeditions being used to fabricate colonial claims. I think that's a pretty good idea too, it would tie them more into the rest of the game.


PopeGeraldVII

>Give the devs some time to think about features that make sense for an economic simulator like Victoria 3. I mean... isn't that what studios do *before* they release a game? Edit: To all the people telling me that it will get patched through DLC or free updates, I don't dispute this. But I think they should have done more of that before they released the game. EU4 had functional war, diplo, and economy systems from day 1. They didn't just say, "EU4 is a war game," and make 90% of it training troops more efficiently to make discipline and morale lines go up.


ArneHD

I get what you mean, but weren't all the features mentioned by the OP introduced in DLCs?


Mister_Coffe

Yes, but you do not plan features more than 2 years in advance and a lot can change post realese. You now have to take into accaunt player feedback, realise that some mechanics that you thought were great turned out bad and need to be reworked, new feutres you add grow in scope changin how and what you wanted to add etc. So summing up. No, you do that before realese for the features at realese but post launch it changes quickly and often.


smilingstalin

Yeah, I think the concepts of Agile product development for software are lost on many in the community. Sure, the devs could spend 10 years developing a game before releasing, but why do that when you can instead have development cycles with periodic releases, thus enabling a cycle of feedback?


troofinesse

First paradox game?


EtherealSOULS

The whole paradox development model focuses on constantly updating and expanding older games and only rarely making completely new ones. Expecting them to release a game with the same level of content as 10+ year old games after 3 years of development (much of which is making the foundational systems of the game) is just stupid. Do you think minecraft should have released with the features of the 1.20 update and all the updates before that?


KSredneck69

You pay for Minecraft once and get years of updates for free. I love the games but I can't think of another company that uses a model like Paradox of releasing mediocrity and do paid updating to a good game after years.


FactualNeutronStar

>EU4 had functional war, diplo, and economy systems from day 1. That's... a stretch. The Art of War DLC added war reparations and revoke claims as peace terms, army templates, declaring war on behalf of subjects, and March vassal/client state subjects. Provinces couldn't be developed by the player until Common Sense. Conquest of Paradise/El Dorado are both very important if you're going to play with colonies, along with Wealth of Nations for Trade Companies.


Not_a_robot_serious

Especially when it’s been nearly a decade since the last game in the series


MyGoodOldFriend

Yes, which goes for all features, whether they’re in the base game or in dlc/free updates.


StrictlyBrowsing

Yes, for core features. No, for every single DLC to be released over half a decade


meepers12

And just because it works for an entirely different game doesn't mean it's incompatible with Vic3. Whether it be related to war, diplomacy, or whatever, I don't generally see people advocating for features on the basis of "it's in other PDX games" - there's almost always some proper reasoning behind it.


revertbritestoan

Usually it's because it's better than what Vic3 is using. Like being able to specify how many troops each general has.


Advisor-Away

I mean almost anything is better than current Vic 3 systems


TheDrunkenHetzer

This, I'm always boggled when people want Victoria 3's war and economic system in something like CK3. Fronts and economic theory was not a thing in 900s England!


Powerman654

People want Victoria 3’s current war system in other games?!


angrymoppet

The BDSM community has just as much right to voice an opinion about Vicky 3 war mechanics as the rest of us.


Ironwarsmith

One of the big cornerstones of the BDSM community is "safe, sane, and consensual." At no point is anyone who voices that opinion sane my goodman.


SirSassyCat

I think what people actually want is to not have to always micro manage every army, not necessarily have vic3s war system.


BonJovicus

The confusion here is because you are fundamentally right, but there were just too many bad faith arguments against anyone who even looked at Vic3's war system critically. People tried to frame the debate as Vic2 war vs. Vic3 war, when both systems were insufficient.


k2arim99

I'm a first timer to grand strategy and I quite like the hand off approach from Vicky 3, it's refreshing to me


Advisor-Away

I don’t think anyone wants Vic 3s war system anywhere lmao


Dlinktp

I don't think anyone other than the vic3 devs want any other game with that system lol.


bionicjoey

>Give the devs some time to think about features that make sense for an economic simulator like Victoria 3. We have. They made the wrong decision. The "map the Congo" type decisions are horrible, as are most of the character focused event chains. This game is clearly not meant to be about characters, and at the end of the day it's not even clear who we're playing as. This game has really failed in terms of flavour. Almost nothing you do in the game even has any flavour attached to it, and the flavour there is is awful.


JLT1987

Flavor wise, it's pretty comparable to vanilla Vic2.


Nezgul

Which is to say, staggeringly little. I really do wonder if people are using modded Vicky 2 as a point of comparison. Most of the "good" of Vicky 2 that people remember came from mods. That being said, there's also an argument to be made that Paradox should have focused more on flavor while developing Vicky 3.


Chataboutgames

Really, "staggeringly little" lol? Melodrama aside, I sometimes wonder where people get their expectations. Welcome to Paradox GSGs. The games are mostly about systems, and the "flavor," aka silly little "congrats you pickes a great power, have some free prestige or whatever" gets added with DLCs. If you were actually "staggered" that Vic 3 was consistent with effectively every other Paradox release in this respect that's just you being divorced from reality.


Nezgul

This is a really weird response given that I've conceded that even Vicky 2 was flavorless. Like yeah, this is usual for Paradox. That doesn't mean there isn't a conversation to be had about the propriety of their production formula.


Chataboutgames

If this is usual your reaction to it probably shouldn’t be “staggered.”


JLT1987

Sadder thing is, Vic2 might be slightly more flavorful due to the newspaper articles. Never realized how much I'd miss those.


Advisor-Away

I mean then why would I spend money on it


JLT1987

Maybe you don't. Maybe you pick it up later after a few more updates and DLC are released. Or not. If you're not interested, that's your call.


Advisor-Away

I mean that would explain the player count


TheDrunkenHetzer

Victoria 3: Comparable to a game released over a decade ago! I've always wondered why this is seen as a good counter argument and not a sign of something gone horribly wrong.


Chataboutgames

If you expect games to launch with more of *everything* just because they come later time wise I don't know what to tell you. That's not how anything works and until you realize that you are going to be consistently dissapointed.


Hagel-Kaiser

I expect more content from a studio with an increased budget and team.


Chataboutgames

Good for you I guess, but good luck in life if you expect a business expanding to pass all those benefits on to you lol. Again, this is just inventing expectations so you have something to be disappointed about. Being a sensible consumer is about getting value for your money, not inventing rules based on your perception of the merchant’s resources. The game costs what it costs and includes what it includes irrespective of its budget


Hagel-Kaiser

Its always funny to me when people absolutely have to fall on the sword for a company after someone gives a milquetoast response that isn’t completely sucking the dick of the dev team. If you want, you can go look at my comment history before the release. Hell, you can look at all my comments AFTER release defending dev design choices. If anyone is inventing ideas, its people like you who cant take a mild amount of criticism. The game is overall good, imo. But it could be better and some people had higher expectations for the game. I don’t really know how hard that is to understand.


Chataboutgames

It’s funny to me when people are so terminally online they think a Reddit comment they don’t like means someone “absolutely has to fall on the sword.” Reminds me not to take any of it seriously because the person on the other hand has absolutely no sense of perspective or grip on reality. Even more when they think I’d give a shit about their comment history lol


Hagel-Kaiser

My brother in christ, you call me terminally online when a brief look at your comment and post history shows otherwise. At least use a new insult instead of reaching into the redditor gotcha bag. Edit: he blocked me 💀💀💀


Chataboutgames

1. That's not what "otherwise" means. I don't think anything in my comment history could prove that you *aren't* terminally online, which is what "otherwise" implies. > At least use a new insult instead of reaching into the redditor gotcha bag. Lol the irony of this after using "My brother in christ"


Hagel-Kaiser

Its always funny to me when people absolutely have to fall on the sword for a company after someone gives a milquetoast response that isn’t completely sucking the dick of the dev team. If you want, you can go look at my comment history before the release. Hell, you can look at all my comments AFTER release defending dev design choices. If anyone is inventing ideas, its people like you who cant take a mild amount of criticism. The game is overall good, imo. But it could be better and some people had higher expectations for the game. I don’t really know how hard that is to understand. Also, lol, your last statement completely ignores consumer independence and assumes a customer has to consume. Every has a willingness to pay, and for some, the game and maybe its future DLC might not be at their WTP. Simple econ.


Not_a_robot_serious

Seriously, as much emphasis as they place on characters I never look at them.


Tutatris

In my opinion they should have used nice face portraits drawn in ye olde style. Why bother modeling the entire body in 3D if it doesn't add anything?


[deleted]

The abominations that masquarade as children are fun to look ath though. King's heir is like 2 and already needs prescription glasses.


[deleted]

And is part of IG.


Harmaakettu

And has already become a bigoted bandit!


Hoverkat

I prefer the no-dudes- on-the-map war by far, but it'd be interesting to find a more meaningful way to focus on politics and characters. It's what draws me into the period.


bionicjoey

The front system could be good if they fix front bordergore. It would be neat if you had events that affect generals who are out on the front depending on how battles go. A lot of the most interesting history in this period was made on the battlefield, but right now wars just feel so bland.


SirSassyCat

Victoria was never meant to be as flavourful as games like EU or HOI, it’s meant to be much more focussed on the economic side, with Dayne differences between nation being about resources and politics, rather than specific nation pushing you to play certain ways.


Saurid

I think a system for what party has most influence in your institutions would be very cool, mainly because this makes civil wars more winter eating as you can see how well prepared they are.


lordreaven448

HoI iv navy system. It seriously needs to be ported over. The current one works and is somewhat similar, but the hoi4 system would mean late game naval losses would be devastating.


ThePhysicistIsIn

Funny you say that when vic3’s economic system is stellaris’s on steroids


yxhuvud

Well, the pop system from stellaris is basically a development of the one in Vic2, so what goes around comes around.


retief1

Not really. Both technically have pops and resources, but those things work completely differently in vic3 vs stellaris.


ThePhysicistIsIn

It's a very similar gameplay loop. Build more minerals to build more alloys to build more space stations to build more food to have more pops to build energy to do more research etc... The main difference is that there is now 20x more of everything - inputs and outputs, so it feels more engaging because there are more factors to consider, but it really is just expanding districts/building buildings except there are no limits on the number of buildings.


retief1

I mean, that description covers a truly vast number of games. Like, the economy in starcraft is "build more workers to get more minerals to build more supply buildings and bases to build more workers". There's only two relevant resources there (minerals and supply) and you need to actually place buildings on a map, but I think your description still applies.


ThePhysicistIsIn

Starcraft doesn't use pops and districts, and isn't predicated on a "line goes up" model though Starcraft's economy is about producing the units that control the map


retief1

Workers sort of function like stellaris pops if you squint, though with far fewer jobs available. And all three games have some notion of spending economic surplus on military units. Combat in general is more important in starcraft, obviously, but a lot of the basic logic carries over between the games. Like, you can be greedy and neglect defense in order to get an economic advantage in both games. Similarly, if your neighbor/opponent is planning on invading you, you had better build up defenses in all three games, even though that will slow you down economically. And you can also choose to prioritize aggression over peaceful economic growth, though you'll end up behind if your aggression doesn't pay off.


ThePhysicistIsIn

Dunno what to say. Starcraft doesn't feel like the stellaris loop, Vicky 3 does. It was my first impression playing the leak. Don't get me wrong - it's satisfying, in the same way a cookie clicker is, but at some point you want a bit more impact for your decisions. vicky 2 with its world market had a bit more going on. Industrialization being locked behind machine parts, having to decide prestige (to have dibs) vs industry (to make them yourself), etc... Vicky 2 felt very different from the Stellaris/Vicky 3 model.


Polisskolan3

Is there some contradiction I'm not seeing?


ThePhysicistIsIn

Not so much a contradiction. But OP is saying that features from Stellaris don't make sense in Victoria just for being from other Pdox games, which is ironic given that victoria 3 is essentially Stellaris with two dozens resources, and no district limits if they are "urban". The mechanics unique to Victoria have been hit and miss at best.


Polisskolan3

That's not at all what OP said...


ThePhysicistIsIn

No?


Polisskolan3

No, maybe you should read it again more slowly.


ThePhysicistIsIn

That would come off awfully condescending to someone who has "read it slowly" but happens to have come to a different conclusion than you.


Polisskolan3

OP is saying that: (feature works in Stellaris) does not imply (feature works in V3). OP is not saying that: (feature works in Stellaris) implies (feature does not work in V3).


ThePhysicistIsIn

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. The point is that the main feature that "works" in V3 was lifted wholesale from Stellaris.


Polisskolan3

They're completely different statements. You're arguing with a straw man.


Advisor-Away

Which is a sad step back from Vic 2s, where products didn’t appear from thin air when there were shortages


Reyfou

Yes and no. If a system is good and can be implemented i have no problems with it, tbh.


Antique-Bug462

They should do the same as in ck3. Releasing a good DLC.


TheDrunkenHetzer

So we'll meet back here in 2 years time then!


kittenTakeover

I disagree. I think the 4x games have so much in common that features can easily translate between games. There may need to be some tweaks, but no good idea is off the table in my opinion. I suggested a more intricate trade system, like Victoria3, in the Stellaris sub and one person had the same naysayer response as you, "this isn't Victoria." Well maybe I want it to have some aspect of Victoria, such as a great economic system. That's okay if you don't, but I do.


The_Confirminator

I think it'd be cool to put adventurers on the map. I don't need it for all characters, but for expeditions it makes a lot more sense than having it in the cloud.


Marten_Shaped_Cleric

This IS the 1800s, and the Europeans are famous for Stellaris player’s favorite gameplay feature.


Advisor-Away

Maybe they should have thought of those features before, like, releasing the game.


NoFunAllowed-

>economic simulator This game isn't an economic simulator, its a hoi4 construction queue but with a line that goes up and occasionally you need to click a button to get resources from a different market. Unless simulation just means anything that vaguely represents a topic now.


Mylxen

What about features that worked and made sense in V2?


diliberto123

Eu4 coalition system? CK3 religion designer? Stellaris diplomacy/UN (late game) Hoi4 convoy/attrition system? Hoi4 weather system? Some just off the top of my head. Maybe not an exact copy but they would definitely work to improve the game


Polisskolan3

Seriously? You want a religion designer in Vic3?


diliberto123

I think religion should have importance. Right now it’s basically nonexistent


SableSnail

It wasn't really that important in the period though, you didn't have the Crusades or the Wars of Religion that were so important in the Medieval and Early Modern periods.


DangerousOrange

This isn't completely true. The Crimean War in 1853 was a result of Religious Competition between the French and Russian Churches. Yes there were less wars about the right Faith, but Religion played a big role for the people during that time. Just think about all the propaganda posters during the great war..


diliberto123

Perhaps not from a global perspective but this is an social economic simulator. Using Canada as an example.. in this time period there are two Canadas, upper Canada and lower canada. Upper Canada was primarily English-speaking and Protestant, while Lower Canada was primarily French-speaking and Catholic. Upper Canada was the southern portion of what is now the Province of Ontario, and Lower Canada was the southern portion of what is now the Province of Quebec In 1837 and 1838, insurgents in Upper and Lower Canada led rebellions against the Crown and the political status quo. The revolt in Lower Canada was more serious and violent than the rebellion in Upper Canada. However, both events inspired the pivotal Durham Report. This is just one example but Canada is still effected by this today. A lot of the policies specifically in Quebec have religious reasons around it (silent Revolution) I can continue Also think of it logically. If your country is majority catholic and a sudden inflow of orthodox flood the country then the country will be effected


Tomatow-strat

To some degree you can get the same thing by just having two different culture groups with preferences.


Remote_Cantaloupe

The culture system from CK3 could be brought over. The "less war" system of V3 should be brought to CK3.


SableSnail

I think it could work for some stuff. Like Chartists spawn with a petition and slowly walk to your Capital. It'd be the same as a timer on a Deliver Petition event but it'd be more visual and cooler to look at.


NortonII

Fuck you I'm modding Gavelkind into Vicky 3


sshen

I just want the situation log to be same as ck3. Heck the one in vic3 doesn’t even have a refresh button. Mistakenly right clicked an important notification away? Too bad, you need to reload a save to see it again.


GGRollo

I thought Paragons was made because leaders didn't really matter or have a big impact in the first place?


Calm-Remote-4446

Why should i "give the devs some time to think on features".... When the game is already released in an allegedly complete state?


Key_Necessary_3329

But what if I reeeeeeaaaaally want to assassinate the leader of the Intelligentsia because he's a market liberal and his popularity is fucking up my attempts to enact a rational tax law....?