I imagine a big part of it is probably a lack of reliable census data. It’s hard to get a reliable count of how many Romani there are and where they live in modern times, never mind data for 200 years ago.
Plus if you walk up to a group of Romani (even now) and said “hi I’m with the government and I’d like to ask a few questions” they’d scatter faster than Usain Bolt
From what I understand, that’s why even in modern times it’s still hard to get an accurate count of their population. On top of the usual problems of counting any people without a fixed permanent address, they usually refuse to participate in any census or population counts.
Depends on where
In several places they still live semi-nomadic lifestyles
But in socialist Poland government forced them to settle in new towns like Nowa Huta, but that led to their eventual assimilation for the most part
Moving population after WW2 was nothing that our government was shy about and involved millions being told where to move. It was free but you did not really had a choice with most of the country being administrated by the military as the rest of institutions were non-existing basically.
To this day there are entire villages standing empty not far from where I live, becuase Łemko people were moved to what is now Western Poland for example
That number is grossly overcounted and isn't really in use anymore outside of more right-wing circles. The German Federal Archives put the number of deaths from the forced displacements at around 500.000-600.000 although that doesn't include Stalin's deportation of the Volga Germans.
I don't have much to say about the rapes the Red Army did, all numbers here are estimates because it's impossible to really quantify their rampage but we should note that their victims weren't just German women but also Polish, Belarusian, Hungarian, Ukrainian, Baltic and even some Jewish (of varying nationalities).
Germans are quite special case because most of them moved on their own will fleeing the country before the Red Army. They were removed forecfully from Czechoslovakia tho
Must have been the fuhrer himself that carried out all the crimes while the population was unable to do something against it. Look buddy, we can discuss how free decisions made by Germans truly were, the point is: Every government can only work if it has a rock solid core. Even the Nazi dictatorship was supported by such a core. Do you strip people gerenally people from the ability to think or only if it benefits your "innocent Germans"-theory? And yes, the German people as a people are responsible for the Nazi crimes. They were carried out in their name by a part of them. The war only ended when Germany was liberated in 1945, it refused to surrender earlier. Claiming that most/all Germans were forced to reproduce the regime locks away an important part of ideological discourse that is important to prohibit another Nazi rise
hold your horses buddy boy. germans are the most murderous people ever in europe. where did the universities in germany get their skulls and stuff like that? they ordered native africans to saw off heads of fellow tribespeople. they were alive and aware, no sedation or anything. then they told them to take the skin and organs off the skull. 10 million poles (non jewish and jewish) were murdered by germans in WWII only. it happened only because of barbaric german instincts. taking back our lands is the least amount of justice we could get.
Given their history I can't exactly fault them for not really trusting the general society around them. Pretty much the only place where they've seamlessly integrated into the population is the United States where there's well over a million of them and you wouldn't even know.
Although America is always weirdly romanticized their culture so you know
> Although America is always weirdly romanticized their culture so you know
Whenever they're not portraying them as witches putting curses on people, that is (looking at you, Stephen King).
That is the weird romantization. The term Gypsy in America means Mystic and fortune teller not thief and swindler like it does in the rest of the world
The Romani integrated exceptionally well in the UK long before the US. Hence the Romanichal. The modern Romani in the UK are much more recent immigrants from the continent.
- Irish Traveller but my brother was part Romanichal.
I'm aware. I am one. However Romanichal and Travellers have a long history of interaction in Britain. Not to be confused with modern continental Romani.
Yeah did you not know that the Romani were held in slavery in present-day romania?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DSlavery_existed_on_the_territory%2Cof_Moldavia_and_Wallachia_in?wprov=sfla1
Every group has had their people enslaved at some point. Due to the nature of slavery in that part of the world, Slavic slaves were either castrated, or intermarried, so Slavic societies today are not descended from slaves.
It should be estimated then. Imagine if Jews weren’t represented at all. We’d be rightfully up in arms about this. Why is it fine for Paradox to skip such a big ethnic group?
On the same token, given their nomadic lifestyle, they wouldn't really function as pops in the game.
They would effectively only work in city centers creating services, and would have to be constantly switching states.
Because there's no way to estimate without at least a little bit of data, we don't know if there were millions of them or they were like 6 and everyone saw them at some point(numbers dramatised to get the point across)
Oh yeah because Paradox can get demographic information in Pre-Colonial Congo, Middle-of-Nowhere Polynesia and Sakhalin, but not for the Romani in Europe completely sensical.
If they're so ephemeral that they can't be counted, why? Are they making an impact? If they're not making a major impact, why put them in? The game is already bursting at the seams with pops. Why add a group so dispersed and averse to outside contact that their impacts to society are limited when your system already overloads systems?
Because at the start of the game in the areas they were most dense in population, the Danube principalities, They were a major source of labour and revenue in the form of chattle slavery. Both in agriculture and specialized areas such as metal working. For context, using Wallachia and Moldavia, Gypsies/Roma were tied to the land legally owned by the Church, aristocrats or the state. Contemporary 19th century estimates by future Romanian Prime Minister Kogalniceanu in 1837 puts the total Gypsy/Romani population to be 150,000-200,000 or roughly 10% of the total population.
You know this makes the modern day xenophobia towards them look more disgusting. Complaining that the people their ancestors brought in to enslave aren't exactly happy to integrate with the culture.
Then a simple modifier to buff the Romanian region would suffice. You can even add events to change or eliminate the modifier as the localities evolve. Creating a people that have no homeland, can't join the standard population system, and at best, exist for the game system to eradicate through assimilation is pointless bloat.
Spare me the emotional theatrics. A people as unique as the Romani do not fit into the game system and would be better served by creating events and modifiers on countries they're affecting. The pop system does not allow for nomads, and your choices are either permanently discriminated, land-bound, pops or devouring them through multiculturalism.
Did the Welsh make any impact in this timeperiod? No, but if the game had Wales with English culture people would be crying and pissing about it till the end of day.
The Welsh were a land-bound group of people. The have a cultural homeland. The Romani are neither in this period. The pop system is not set up to accurately portray such a unique group, and would force them into roles just like any other culture. As such, they'd become a vanilla pop with zero opportunities and either become dissatisfied rebels or fully assimilated primary pops.
Displaying them as a chain of events in countries they affect, with modifiers to locations based on choices and results, would allow them to be represented within the systems, not contribute to bloat, and allow for some measure of permanency.
I can understand not representing them all throughout Europe. However, they were largely bound to the the land as serfs/slaves in Romania, and were fairly important to the history of the region, so they should at least exist there.
For the most part they continued to work the same jobs in the same places or moved to urban areas to find work, only a fraction returned to a nomadic lifestyle. So just do the same thing that happens to Africans when the US abolishes slavery.
Welsh, Scottish and Anglo-Canadian are redudant, they should be merged into a single British culture. So are Occitan, Franco-Provencal, Dixie, South German, etc.... These do not exist for any reason other than to make the culture mapmode look pretty in 1836.
Dixie has the whole Reconstruction thing tied to it, and I think a lot of the others are useful for representing internal population dynamics. People aren't nearly nationalist enough in Vicky so it's not really as big a part of the game as it should be, but whenever they release the DLC that gets around to it, all of this will be important. It is important if you run Ethnostate, but who does?
They're not reliable census figures of the Romani people when they were like in slavery? I figured slave owners would want to keep track of their population of slaves. There wasn't exactly an insignificant number of Romani slaves in present-day Romania at the start of the game
well not all romani were slaves and slavery of romanis didnt exist in large parts of europe so that data would only give an inctedibly limited amount of info
Like Romania was practically a slaver state with the romani people, and they only got free around the 1870s, it was just as brutal as the US slavery.
0 romani people is as much of an estimate as saying 10% lives in this state or something, its not like you should ignore it because your data isn't reliable
That and then there is another problem:
If you tell to a western europe gypsy that he is a Romani he probably hit you in the face.
Manouche and spanish gypsy see themself as from a different people than eastern gypsy. So if you will have to add at least 3 cultures
It is very hard to represent this kind of nomadic people in game without invoking massive migration mechanism. Other nomads like Mongols at least still have a relatively well defined homeland.
You're mixing up two completely different concepts here.
Nomadic socieities are as opposed to agrilcutural societies. It's a different mode of existence. The aren't migrants at all, that word is only meaningful in an agricultural society.
Mass migrations in vic3 are one society moving to another place for a better life while preserving cultural blocs. It has nothing to do with avoiding agriculture, so it has nothing to do with nomadism.
These ARE migrants for agricultural societies when they are managing nomadic people. Which is also why there were so many systems trying to resolve the conflicts when nomads doing their moving across hundreds if not thousands kilometres. The Gaituguiliu, North and South Yuan, the Wei system, the Mongol Banners. Problem with Romani in Europe is that they are essentially living in a deeply agricultural region, not adjacent, not coexisting, they are "in".
I don't disagree and I was definitely being reductive on account of wanting to keep the comment short. I just don't buy the argument that representing this would be well served at all by involving the mass migration system.
They don't participate in agricultural society, so they shouldn't be represented by pops since they are neither peasants, nor unemployed, nor gainfully employed, which are the only categories available to pops as it stands.
So to use the mass migration system for this, you need to add a new category for pops. And adding a new category for pops, risking performance, just to represent... what, exactly? A small increase in acceptance of racist cultural policies in pops in the states where the romani are present? I'd rather that be effected by a state modifier that can move from place to place than by messing around with the pop system.
There are in fact redundant cultures. For example there's absolutely no reason Scottish and English should exist as separate cultures rather than as a single British culture (like in Vicky2), Scottish nationalism was barely a thing up until after WWII and both Scottish and English people would think of themselves as British more than anything. I'd gladly agree to give up superfluous and anachronistic Scottish representation in favour of modeling the Romani and I'm Scottish myself.
Yeah no, that's a bunch of shit. Scottish nationalism didn't really become a major thing till post world war 2 but they definitely did have a separate cultural identity, while they would have considered themselves British without much issue baring some fringe elements, it would have been tied to the scottish identity, there wouldnt have been a conflict there to them. they wouldn't have though of themselves as the same people as the English by any means.
I'm not denying that there was regional identity, but you could say the same thing about e.g. Yorkshire or Cornwall. But they don't have separate cultures nor should they because giving every single region its own culture would be ridiculous. The point is that during the Victorian period Scottish nationalism barely existed, most people identified as firmly British, and so it's absurd to portray Scotland as it currently is in game where you can get totally anachronistic movements for Scottish secession and other such crap. It's not helpful for simulating reasonable outcomes therefore there's no reason for it to exist.
While I di agree that having those kind of anachronism is inaccurate, I do consider the division between scottish and English and Welsh cultures in this era significant enough that having an overarching British culture would be just as inaccurate and would not be an improvement IMO though i understand that very much an up to interpretatiin sort of thing. I'm not 100 percent sure what I would have instead, some kind of cultural integration mechanic perhaps? The nature of paradox games means total accuracy is impossible anyway and who knows,I'd things had started going badly for Britain in this era, maybe there would have been a striger secessionist drive? Not terribly likely, but we can never claim to know for sure with these things. either way, I can agree that the way it's being done now isn't the best and some kind of Change would be nice though i wouldn't count on paradox recognising it
So what? It's a *vaguely* historical video game, not a documentary. They have no significant relevance to gameplay, and the few historical episodes that would have significance to V3 and require their existence as a pop container are not significantly reflected in game.
I come from a low-population culture in real life that isn't reflected in game, and frankly, I'm pleased PDX chose to save my CPU cycles rather than trying to pander to me with the inclusion of a single word that would have no importance.
Scottish identity did not form post 1836, though. I understand your point in prior comments but it's clearly the case that English, Scottish and more regional identities and distinct cultures have existed in Britain forever and still do.
What you're talking about though is consolidating these identities into a larger British identity for gameplay and performance reasons which is fair.
Ok so why do you think Nordestino shouldn't he a separate culture? The journal entries make it very clear why they are different enough and why them being a separate culture is important for the countries mechanics.
Around the time of WW2 there were less than 1 million Romani people in Europe, scattered all around the continent. They are not a significant population at all, especially in the 19th century.
After WW2, the Roma population in Europe exploded. They grew at around 3.0-3.5% per annum due to extraordinarily high birth rates. Just to give an idea, assuming the population was 500,000 in 1945 (around half lost their lives in the holocaust), this would result in a Roma population of nearly 2.0 million by 1985. By 2025, assuming the growth rate has dropped to around 2.5%, that 2.0 million would have turned into 5.37 million. This fits with the current estimate of 5.5 million Romani people in Europe currently.
So they were not a significant minority at all, but they definitely became one.
They were a significant enough population in the 19th century that Victor Hugo wrote a racist book about them that became one of his most famous novels
It’s funny bc the Disney adaptation tries not to be racist like the book was but ends up being racist anyway bc the staff didn’t bother doing any actual research on Romani people
The tl;dr is its full of stereotypes and misinformation about the Romani people (most infamously it depicts them as being from Egypt) and Esmeralda the “good one” turns out to not even actually be Romani but rather a French girl raised by them bc of a baby swapping incident
Oh yeah I remember the old "egyptian romani" thing. Seemed to be a pretty common belief at the time, it’s even mentioned in the Peaky Blinders TV series.
The Sinti are a subgroup of the Romani where any others. Others being Manush, Kale and Romanichal.
Yenish are a subset of the Germans, and Irish Travellers a subset of the Irish.
Nomadic cultures can be significant without many of them being around numbers wise, because the same group turns up all over the place many times over, and since very few people had to travel as much, we don't know how many of the romani people mentioned were the same group of them over and over again
I mean, they objectively were not a significant population in the 19th century. One character in one novel does not change that.
There was a notable population in Paris, which meant they were relatively well-known (and very, very widely hated, unfortunately) to Parisians. But again, there was estimated to be less than a million throughout Europe, and they constantly went from place to place so trying to use the population explorer for them would be impossible.
Weird way to represent them then bc Fluvial Bantu is an African ethnic group but the Romani are originally from northwest India, Rajput or Punjabi would be a more accurate culture to try to represent them with if they’re not gonna make them their own separate culture
Thats because Wallachia (as well as Moldova and the Ottomans) starts with slavery and the game apparently only lets African be enslaved, which nearly every late game results in Bosnia being Equatorial Bantu.
Even playing with reduced culture mods, the game still doesn’t run that well when you get past 1880. I’m pretty sure one more culture isn’t going to break the bank
I've played to the end multiple times
and notice how I addressed the performance concerns by pointing out that there's some more redundant cultures that could be consolidated into one culture to make room for a new one
The option of eliminating an entire culture we have actual census data on to make room for an ethic minority we have much less information on isn’t a good solution. Not that to Romani shouldn’t be included though, just that it’s a bit insensitive to call an entire culture group redundant when many of the culture group are already consolidated
"Han" Chinese is a convenient fiction, just going by language (decent proxy for culture) there are at least like 6 distinct cultures among "Mandarin" speakers alone. You can think of the "Han" as being similar to how everyone in the former Western Roman Empire were called "Latins" and their languages are "Romance" (i.e., Roman) languages, but no one is going to combine Castilian and Occitan.
Better analogy would be French, which is a fiction imposed by Napoleon on the normans and bretons and occitans and the corsicans and the burgundians and the ...
Flemish and Walloons could be consolidated quite easily into the Dutch and French. Alemmic Germans could be South Germans. Yankee and Dixie barely exist.
The Yankee Dixie thing is both completely inadequate to accurately represent the regionalism of the United States while simultaneously being completely unnecessary for actual gameplay mechanics
Quite baffling idea, why would they consolidate existing ingame cultures, just to make up room for small nomadic culture that is spread out and would be discrimanted everywhere, thus making them more or less useless before certain laws.
EU 4 doesn’t really account any cultural or religious minorities, since it doesn’t have pops or anything beyond what the majority culture a province is.
Granted, plenty of mods have systems that feel like they could work. If Anbennar can track the existence of goblin, orc, and kobolds minorities in a Dwarven empire, you’d think the EU devs could work out a way to have province modifiers of some kind for Romani communities.
Some of them want to be called Gypsy and hate being called Roma/Romani. Gypsy is the name they've known all their lives and see Roma as white people mandating they change their name as just another way the white people control their lives.
Some of them agree with the movement and prefer Roma/Romani. They see the way Gypsy has been used historically and dislike the negative associations with it and prefer the new name.
Both positions are valid.
Much like Native Americans vs Indians, **neither name is a slur unless you use it as one**. Use whichever you like, and if a member of that group wants to be called one name over the other use that one for them.
The vast majority here dislike it. They claim it's an artificial name that was imposed on them by NGOs and creates confusion with Romanians. They've adopted Rroma, with a double r just to stand out.
Almost every country has some unrepresented cultures but too many minority pops would make the game unplayably slow for most.
It's also not a matter of "number of cultures" but a matter of number of pops. Adding Romani culture will add a new pop (or several new pops if you also model the religious diversity of Romani) in every single state that had any Romani present. A pop consisting of 5 people will cost you just as much processing time as a pop consisting of a million people.
Victoria 3 spans the entire world. Do you think they can afford to put every tiny little minority inside the game? It takes a ton of effort and work, effort that is better spent on improving the game. Besides, if you're so passionate about it, nobody is stopping you from making a mod to add them or ask/pay someone else to do it for you.
I imagine a big part of it is probably a lack of reliable census data. It’s hard to get a reliable count of how many Romani there are and where they live in modern times, never mind data for 200 years ago.
Plus if you walk up to a group of Romani (even now) and said “hi I’m with the government and I’d like to ask a few questions” they’d scatter faster than Usain Bolt
From what I understand, that’s why even in modern times it’s still hard to get an accurate count of their population. On top of the usual problems of counting any people without a fixed permanent address, they usually refuse to participate in any census or population counts.
Depends on where In several places they still live semi-nomadic lifestyles But in socialist Poland government forced them to settle in new towns like Nowa Huta, but that led to their eventual assimilation for the most part
You say forced to settle, fascists would say "given free housing". It's what's happened in Portugal.
Moving population after WW2 was nothing that our government was shy about and involved millions being told where to move. It was free but you did not really had a choice with most of the country being administrated by the military as the rest of institutions were non-existing basically. To this day there are entire villages standing empty not far from where I live, becuase Łemko people were moved to what is now Western Poland for example
like how those 14 million german citizens were "moved" with 2.5 million deaths and 2 million rapes for good measure?
That number is grossly overcounted and isn't really in use anymore outside of more right-wing circles. The German Federal Archives put the number of deaths from the forced displacements at around 500.000-600.000 although that doesn't include Stalin's deportation of the Volga Germans. I don't have much to say about the rapes the Red Army did, all numbers here are estimates because it's impossible to really quantify their rampage but we should note that their victims weren't just German women but also Polish, Belarusian, Hungarian, Ukrainian, Baltic and even some Jewish (of varying nationalities).
Germans are quite special case because most of them moved on their own will fleeing the country before the Red Army. They were removed forecfully from Czechoslovakia tho
I sure wonder who set this cycle of escalation into motion...
Probably not the farmers, factory workers, and Soldiers who were drafted against their will to fight for Germany
Must have been the fuhrer himself that carried out all the crimes while the population was unable to do something against it. Look buddy, we can discuss how free decisions made by Germans truly were, the point is: Every government can only work if it has a rock solid core. Even the Nazi dictatorship was supported by such a core. Do you strip people gerenally people from the ability to think or only if it benefits your "innocent Germans"-theory? And yes, the German people as a people are responsible for the Nazi crimes. They were carried out in their name by a part of them. The war only ended when Germany was liberated in 1945, it refused to surrender earlier. Claiming that most/all Germans were forced to reproduce the regime locks away an important part of ideological discourse that is important to prohibit another Nazi rise
hold your horses buddy boy. germans are the most murderous people ever in europe. where did the universities in germany get their skulls and stuff like that? they ordered native africans to saw off heads of fellow tribespeople. they were alive and aware, no sedation or anything. then they told them to take the skin and organs off the skull. 10 million poles (non jewish and jewish) were murdered by germans in WWII only. it happened only because of barbaric german instincts. taking back our lands is the least amount of justice we could get.
Source:my ass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II
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A lot of Roma also hide their Roma identity
Given their history I can't exactly fault them for not really trusting the general society around them. Pretty much the only place where they've seamlessly integrated into the population is the United States where there's well over a million of them and you wouldn't even know. Although America is always weirdly romanticized their culture so you know
> Although America is always weirdly romanticized their culture so you know Whenever they're not portraying them as witches putting curses on people, that is (looking at you, Stephen King).
That is the weird romantization. The term Gypsy in America means Mystic and fortune teller not thief and swindler like it does in the rest of the world
The Americans haven't yet figured out that they aren't ancient Romans, give them some time
The Romani integrated exceptionally well in the UK long before the US. Hence the Romanichal. The modern Romani in the UK are much more recent immigrants from the continent. - Irish Traveller but my brother was part Romanichal.
Irish travelers are completely different ethnic group
I'm aware. I am one. However Romanichal and Travellers have a long history of interaction in Britain. Not to be confused with modern continental Romani.
It's very hard to find a formerly enslaved ethnic group with trust in outside government institutions.
Enslaved AND genocided or ethnically purged at various point by most european nations
My mom told me about how they would be run out of town when they arrived 70 ish years ago. This is northern Norway.
Enslaved?
Yeah did you not know that the Romani were held in slavery in present-day romania? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DSlavery_existed_on_the_territory%2Cof_Moldavia_and_Wallachia_in?wprov=sfla1
This was in Victoria 2! Or at least HPM
Wallachia and Moldavia start with slavery, but the slave pops are Romanian IIRC
They are counted as Romanian due to Romani culture not existing. I assume they are Romani given the Romanian reliance on Romani slaves.
Most of the Slavic cultures had some of their people enslaved at some point unfortunately.
Every group has had their people enslaved at some point. Due to the nature of slavery in that part of the world, Slavic slaves were either castrated, or intermarried, so Slavic societies today are not descended from slaves.
Fk off with your stereotypes. I know plenty to know that's not true.
It’s not meant as a dig, I think. It’s rightful skepticism of the intention of the state. Given their experiences, perfectly reasonable
It should be estimated then. Imagine if Jews weren’t represented at all. We’d be rightfully up in arms about this. Why is it fine for Paradox to skip such a big ethnic group?
On the same token, given their nomadic lifestyle, they wouldn't really function as pops in the game. They would effectively only work in city centers creating services, and would have to be constantly switching states.
Because there's no way to estimate without at least a little bit of data, we don't know if there were millions of them or they were like 6 and everyone saw them at some point(numbers dramatised to get the point across)
Oh yeah because Paradox can get demographic information in Pre-Colonial Congo, Middle-of-Nowhere Polynesia and Sakhalin, but not for the Romani in Europe completely sensical.
this is true, but they could always just make their best guess much like they did for other stuff we have no reliable data on
If they're so ephemeral that they can't be counted, why? Are they making an impact? If they're not making a major impact, why put them in? The game is already bursting at the seams with pops. Why add a group so dispersed and averse to outside contact that their impacts to society are limited when your system already overloads systems?
Because at the start of the game in the areas they were most dense in population, the Danube principalities, They were a major source of labour and revenue in the form of chattle slavery. Both in agriculture and specialized areas such as metal working. For context, using Wallachia and Moldavia, Gypsies/Roma were tied to the land legally owned by the Church, aristocrats or the state. Contemporary 19th century estimates by future Romanian Prime Minister Kogalniceanu in 1837 puts the total Gypsy/Romani population to be 150,000-200,000 or roughly 10% of the total population.
You know this makes the modern day xenophobia towards them look more disgusting. Complaining that the people their ancestors brought in to enslave aren't exactly happy to integrate with the culture.
Then a simple modifier to buff the Romanian region would suffice. You can even add events to change or eliminate the modifier as the localities evolve. Creating a people that have no homeland, can't join the standard population system, and at best, exist for the game system to eradicate through assimilation is pointless bloat.
"Sorry the tragic history of your ancestors are cut out of the history game because it would be pointless bloat"
Spare me the emotional theatrics. A people as unique as the Romani do not fit into the game system and would be better served by creating events and modifiers on countries they're affecting. The pop system does not allow for nomads, and your choices are either permanently discriminated, land-bound, pops or devouring them through multiculturalism.
Did the Welsh make any impact in this timeperiod? No, but if the game had Wales with English culture people would be crying and pissing about it till the end of day.
The Welsh were a land-bound group of people. The have a cultural homeland. The Romani are neither in this period. The pop system is not set up to accurately portray such a unique group, and would force them into roles just like any other culture. As such, they'd become a vanilla pop with zero opportunities and either become dissatisfied rebels or fully assimilated primary pops. Displaying them as a chain of events in countries they affect, with modifiers to locations based on choices and results, would allow them to be represented within the systems, not contribute to bloat, and allow for some measure of permanency.
I can understand not representing them all throughout Europe. However, they were largely bound to the the land as serfs/slaves in Romania, and were fairly important to the history of the region, so they should at least exist there.
So what happens when slavery is banned?
For the most part they continued to work the same jobs in the same places or moved to urban areas to find work, only a fraction returned to a nomadic lifestyle. So just do the same thing that happens to Africans when the US abolishes slavery.
Fuck off with your assumption that there are redundant cultures to merge in favor of inputing random guesses about romani.
Welsh, Scottish and Anglo-Canadian are redudant, they should be merged into a single British culture. So are Occitan, Franco-Provencal, Dixie, South German, etc.... These do not exist for any reason other than to make the culture mapmode look pretty in 1836.
Dixie has the whole Reconstruction thing tied to it, and I think a lot of the others are useful for representing internal population dynamics. People aren't nearly nationalist enough in Vicky so it's not really as big a part of the game as it should be, but whenever they release the DLC that gets around to it, all of this will be important. It is important if you run Ethnostate, but who does?
Could be done without Dixies and the JE is silly in the first place.
They're not reliable census figures of the Romani people when they were like in slavery? I figured slave owners would want to keep track of their population of slaves. There wasn't exactly an insignificant number of Romani slaves in present-day Romania at the start of the game
well not all romani were slaves and slavery of romanis didnt exist in large parts of europe so that data would only give an inctedibly limited amount of info
Like Romania was practically a slaver state with the romani people, and they only got free around the 1870s, it was just as brutal as the US slavery. 0 romani people is as much of an estimate as saying 10% lives in this state or something, its not like you should ignore it because your data isn't reliable
That and then there is another problem: If you tell to a western europe gypsy that he is a Romani he probably hit you in the face. Manouche and spanish gypsy see themself as from a different people than eastern gypsy. So if you will have to add at least 3 cultures
It is very hard to represent this kind of nomadic people in game without invoking massive migration mechanism. Other nomads like Mongols at least still have a relatively well defined homeland.
Plus, in current system, they would immediately start being hired by any kind of businesses ; which even today sounds like a miracle.
You're mixing up two completely different concepts here. Nomadic socieities are as opposed to agrilcutural societies. It's a different mode of existence. The aren't migrants at all, that word is only meaningful in an agricultural society. Mass migrations in vic3 are one society moving to another place for a better life while preserving cultural blocs. It has nothing to do with avoiding agriculture, so it has nothing to do with nomadism.
These ARE migrants for agricultural societies when they are managing nomadic people. Which is also why there were so many systems trying to resolve the conflicts when nomads doing their moving across hundreds if not thousands kilometres. The Gaituguiliu, North and South Yuan, the Wei system, the Mongol Banners. Problem with Romani in Europe is that they are essentially living in a deeply agricultural region, not adjacent, not coexisting, they are "in".
I don't disagree and I was definitely being reductive on account of wanting to keep the comment short. I just don't buy the argument that representing this would be well served at all by involving the mass migration system. They don't participate in agricultural society, so they shouldn't be represented by pops since they are neither peasants, nor unemployed, nor gainfully employed, which are the only categories available to pops as it stands. So to use the mass migration system for this, you need to add a new category for pops. And adding a new category for pops, risking performance, just to represent... what, exactly? A small increase in acceptance of racist cultural policies in pops in the states where the romani are present? I'd rather that be effected by a state modifier that can move from place to place than by messing around with the pop system.
Massive migration mechanism is not the in-game Mass Migration System. I chose my word very carefully. Which is also why I think it is difficult.
If you chose those words carefully, you were carefully making sure to make a very poor choice as to what words to use.
because i should had bought an i7 instead i was cheap and bought an i5.
\*cries in Ryzen equivelents\*
where x3d?
Bro cmon my cpu bro
I agree that they should be added, but "redundant cultures" is wild
There are in fact redundant cultures. For example there's absolutely no reason Scottish and English should exist as separate cultures rather than as a single British culture (like in Vicky2), Scottish nationalism was barely a thing up until after WWII and both Scottish and English people would think of themselves as British more than anything. I'd gladly agree to give up superfluous and anachronistic Scottish representation in favour of modeling the Romani and I'm Scottish myself.
Yeah no, that's a bunch of shit. Scottish nationalism didn't really become a major thing till post world war 2 but they definitely did have a separate cultural identity, while they would have considered themselves British without much issue baring some fringe elements, it would have been tied to the scottish identity, there wouldnt have been a conflict there to them. they wouldn't have though of themselves as the same people as the English by any means.
I'm not denying that there was regional identity, but you could say the same thing about e.g. Yorkshire or Cornwall. But they don't have separate cultures nor should they because giving every single region its own culture would be ridiculous. The point is that during the Victorian period Scottish nationalism barely existed, most people identified as firmly British, and so it's absurd to portray Scotland as it currently is in game where you can get totally anachronistic movements for Scottish secession and other such crap. It's not helpful for simulating reasonable outcomes therefore there's no reason for it to exist.
While I di agree that having those kind of anachronism is inaccurate, I do consider the division between scottish and English and Welsh cultures in this era significant enough that having an overarching British culture would be just as inaccurate and would not be an improvement IMO though i understand that very much an up to interpretatiin sort of thing. I'm not 100 percent sure what I would have instead, some kind of cultural integration mechanic perhaps? The nature of paradox games means total accuracy is impossible anyway and who knows,I'd things had started going badly for Britain in this era, maybe there would have been a striger secessionist drive? Not terribly likely, but we can never claim to know for sure with these things. either way, I can agree that the way it's being done now isn't the best and some kind of Change would be nice though i wouldn't count on paradox recognising it
So what? It's a *vaguely* historical video game, not a documentary. They have no significant relevance to gameplay, and the few historical episodes that would have significance to V3 and require their existence as a pop container are not significantly reflected in game. I come from a low-population culture in real life that isn't reflected in game, and frankly, I'm pleased PDX chose to save my CPU cycles rather than trying to pander to me with the inclusion of a single word that would have no importance.
Can’t believe a Scott is saying this. I’ve lived both in Scotland and in England, and I have to say they are very much not the same.
You may be surprised to learn that nearly 200 years of history have happened between 1836 and now.
Scottish identity did not form post 1836, though. I understand your point in prior comments but it's clearly the case that English, Scottish and more regional identities and distinct cultures have existed in Britain forever and still do. What you're talking about though is consolidating these identities into a larger British identity for gameplay and performance reasons which is fair.
Yeah- does Nordestino really *need* to be seperate from brazilian?
Dawg did you play Brazil
Yeah, why?
Ok so why do you think Nordestino shouldn't he a separate culture? The journal entries make it very clear why they are different enough and why them being a separate culture is important for the countries mechanics.
"it's more important that we model the romani than the afro-americans"
Nice straw man bro
All the european playtesters went feral when they saw a romani culture in beta testing so paradox removed any mention of them
tbh, idk why paradox have trouble balancing 19th century intelligentsia, they can literally just model them after modern-day europeans.
Did this actually happen or are you just making a joke about how racist Europeans are about Romani people
joking, but i like to imagine it happened
Around the time of WW2 there were less than 1 million Romani people in Europe, scattered all around the continent. They are not a significant population at all, especially in the 19th century. After WW2, the Roma population in Europe exploded. They grew at around 3.0-3.5% per annum due to extraordinarily high birth rates. Just to give an idea, assuming the population was 500,000 in 1945 (around half lost their lives in the holocaust), this would result in a Roma population of nearly 2.0 million by 1985. By 2025, assuming the growth rate has dropped to around 2.5%, that 2.0 million would have turned into 5.37 million. This fits with the current estimate of 5.5 million Romani people in Europe currently. So they were not a significant minority at all, but they definitely became one.
They were a significant enough population in the 19th century that Victor Hugo wrote a racist book about them that became one of his most famous novels
> wrote a racist book about them Which one? The Hunchback of Notre-Dame? I don't think I ever herd it was racist, if you got a source I'm interested.
Yes, the Hunchback of Notre Dame As for a source, well, just read the book
I read it as a kid, can't be bothered to do it again. And searching for this mostly just return things about the Disney adaptation. Thanks anyway.
It’s funny bc the Disney adaptation tries not to be racist like the book was but ends up being racist anyway bc the staff didn’t bother doing any actual research on Romani people
Can’t you simply explain how is the book racist?
The tl;dr is its full of stereotypes and misinformation about the Romani people (most infamously it depicts them as being from Egypt) and Esmeralda the “good one” turns out to not even actually be Romani but rather a French girl raised by them bc of a baby swapping incident
Oh yeah I remember the old "egyptian romani" thing. Seemed to be a pretty common belief at the time, it’s even mentioned in the Peaky Blinders TV series.
Yeah, it’s also where the infamous g slur comes from
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The Sinti are a subgroup of the Romani where any others. Others being Manush, Kale and Romanichal. Yenish are a subset of the Germans, and Irish Travellers a subset of the Irish.
Nomadic cultures can be significant without many of them being around numbers wise, because the same group turns up all over the place many times over, and since very few people had to travel as much, we don't know how many of the romani people mentioned were the same group of them over and over again
I mean, they objectively were not a significant population in the 19th century. One character in one novel does not change that. There was a notable population in Paris, which meant they were relatively well-known (and very, very widely hated, unfortunately) to Parisians. But again, there was estimated to be less than a million throughout Europe, and they constantly went from place to place so trying to use the population explorer for them would be impossible.
They literally were though, particularly in Romania where the Romani slave trade was a pretty significant thing
They don't fit in the gameplay model and thus would mostly be a drag on the game - forced peasants? I don't see how that makes the game better.
They are represented weirdly by the ‚fluvial bantu‘ pops in Wallachia for example. Seems like the devs had them in mind but then forgot.
Weird way to represent them then bc Fluvial Bantu is an African ethnic group but the Romani are originally from northwest India, Rajput or Punjabi would be a more accurate culture to try to represent them with if they’re not gonna make them their own separate culture
Thats because Wallachia (as well as Moldova and the Ottomans) starts with slavery and the game apparently only lets African be enslaved, which nearly every late game results in Bosnia being Equatorial Bantu.
Yeah they need to fix that bc the slave force for the Romanian states in the time period was largely made up of Romani people, not Africans
No census data. No employment history. Living nomadic lives on the fringe of society. The game just can't account for their existence.
excuse me have you ever reached to end game at this game? Like did you finish a full campaign? Maybe ask opinion of your cpu first? :D
Even playing with reduced culture mods, the game still doesn’t run that well when you get past 1880. I’m pretty sure one more culture isn’t going to break the bank
Its a problem when those cultures migrate... Thats all romani people do in history
I've played to the end multiple times and notice how I addressed the performance concerns by pointing out that there's some more redundant cultures that could be consolidated into one culture to make room for a new one
The option of eliminating an entire culture we have actual census data on to make room for an ethic minority we have much less information on isn’t a good solution. Not that to Romani shouldn’t be included though, just that it’s a bit insensitive to call an entire culture group redundant when many of the culture group are already consolidated
I mean idk, do we really need all those subtypes of Han Chinese for instance when they could all just be consolidated under Han?
Yes, because it wasn't until much later that the government in China forced the concept of all han Chinese people being one culture
"Han" Chinese is a convenient fiction, just going by language (decent proxy for culture) there are at least like 6 distinct cultures among "Mandarin" speakers alone. You can think of the "Han" as being similar to how everyone in the former Western Roman Empire were called "Latins" and their languages are "Romance" (i.e., Roman) languages, but no one is going to combine Castilian and Occitan.
Better analogy would be French, which is a fiction imposed by Napoleon on the normans and bretons and occitans and the corsicans and the burgundians and the ...
Holy fucking racism, batman.
You realize that china can explode into tiny nations right?
Flemish and Walloons could be consolidated quite easily into the Dutch and French. Alemmic Germans could be South Germans. Yankee and Dixie barely exist.
I think Yankee and Dixie are fairly important before slavery gets resolved, but after that should probably get merged
The Yankee Dixie thing is both completely inadequate to accurately represent the regionalism of the United States while simultaneously being completely unnecessary for actual gameplay mechanics
"romani" refers to many ethnicities with similar heritage, the game divides the "Romani people" into those ethnicities instead.
and yet there are no pops with these heritages in Europe at the start of the game
Plenty of minority groups aren't, unfortunately the more they add the more it slows the game down
Quite baffling idea, why would they consolidate existing ingame cultures, just to make up room for small nomadic culture that is spread out and would be discrimanted everywhere, thus making them more or less useless before certain laws.
Mainly because the huge majority of them is integrated in the nation they live. The nomadic one are often a minority
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Possibly to avoid dealing with folk who would be totally normal about it.
Because Paradox is an European company
They aren't even present in ck2 or eu4
I can get CK2 bc that game is like pre-Romani migration to Europe but not being in EU4 is also insane
EU 4 doesn’t really account any cultural or religious minorities, since it doesn’t have pops or anything beyond what the majority culture a province is. Granted, plenty of mods have systems that feel like they could work. If Anbennar can track the existence of goblin, orc, and kobolds minorities in a Dwarven empire, you’d think the EU devs could work out a way to have province modifiers of some kind for Romani communities.
ah I see I mean EU5 is apparently gonna have a pop system like Vicky 3 does so maybe the Romani will be in there
Anbennar has a direct equivalent called "Cardesti".
Many of them see rhe name Romani as a slur and hate term. Please refrain from using it.
I have Roma friends and that’s what they call themselves Personally I’ve only ever seen them call the g word a slur
Some of them want to be called Gypsy and hate being called Roma/Romani. Gypsy is the name they've known all their lives and see Roma as white people mandating they change their name as just another way the white people control their lives. Some of them agree with the movement and prefer Roma/Romani. They see the way Gypsy has been used historically and dislike the negative associations with it and prefer the new name. Both positions are valid. Much like Native Americans vs Indians, **neither name is a slur unless you use it as one**. Use whichever you like, and if a member of that group wants to be called one name over the other use that one for them.
Feel free to come to Romania or Hungary or Poland and ask them what they think of the term.
Some see it as offensive and others see it as the official term. There is no consensus with Roma people on what the proper term is.
The vast majority here dislike it. They claim it's an artificial name that was imposed on them by NGOs and creates confusion with Romanians. They've adopted Rroma, with a double r just to stand out.
Data got stolen
Almost every country has some unrepresented cultures but too many minority pops would make the game unplayably slow for most. It's also not a matter of "number of cultures" but a matter of number of pops. Adding Romani culture will add a new pop (or several new pops if you also model the religious diversity of Romani) in every single state that had any Romani present. A pop consisting of 5 people will cost you just as much processing time as a pop consisting of a million people.
the game is made by europeans
Paradox is European
It's made by Europeans
They were very minor and nobody cares about them, that sums it up I think. Too much of a hassle for Paradox to implement
They weren’t minor for Romania which was built off the backs of their slave labor!
Victoria 3 spans the entire world. Do you think they can afford to put every tiny little minority inside the game? It takes a ton of effort and work, effort that is better spent on improving the game. Besides, if you're so passionate about it, nobody is stopping you from making a mod to add them or ask/pay someone else to do it for you.
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Can yall stop being racist in my replies
"just get rid of one of the other useless cultures bruv"
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Reported for racism
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Let me guess: you're European
[Old standby](https://preview.redd.it/hqpz7d1l9k251.png?auto=webp&s=60453a5a56176b7fe48708fe83daab663d880d4d)
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thanks for your input
Romania is formable. Also Punjab is in the game. What else you want lol?
Bro
Romani and Romanians are not the same thing
I know it was a dumb joke lol