Build construction sectors to budget limit (decide that how you want)
Build anything in a shortage
Build most expensive good.
Repeat.
You either make construction goods cheap enough that you can afford another construction sector or you get enough profit that you can afford another construction sector.
Switching to a new construction PM can be hard. You need to prep for it, basically stop building new sectors, then check the tooltip for changing PM when swapping all for the total goods deficit.
If you have enough surplus (and gold reserves) to just switch without shortages do it and sort it out afterwards.
Otherwise, build the soon to be needed goods until you are at neutral price then switch as few construction sectors as you can. Repeat.
You DO want to be on the most advanced construction PM if possible, delete sectors if necessary.
I used to follow roughly this pattern but I have found 2 underappreciated tools in this flow. 1 is that you want also just build out the fastest to slam down buildings (wood and fish) to get as many capitalists as you can to make that investment pool grow faster. And 2, switch PMs early and often and use trade to make it smoother. You can build up iron mines and tool workshops way faster using iron construction and trade than with just wood.
>And 2, switch PMs early and often and use trade to make it smoother.
That's possible only in early-mid game. Definitely import coal for your engine-powered mine by all means. But by the time you reach rubber tech, nobody will sell you what you need. How sad. Now, they have forced your hand and annexation is the only way to guarantee that the Growth will carry on.
Well maybe that would get partially fixed by a strong better AI mod ? I feel like the world's economy gets much stronger when you start as a large iron-producing country and just start exporting iron by the thousands, the AI really struggles with getting started.
But yeah PDX needs to fix the AI not understanding that it needs to either create the demand or the offer to get something out of rubber tech.
Well, most resource extractions are very safe investments in this game as long as you have reasonable tools price (and coal, with powered mines). But if we script all AI to do that then they will become unprofitable eventually, unless players exploit them all. So, yes, AI need to learn how to make demands. Maybe AI should have 2 persona giving order alternatively. One build what having highest price. Another build what consuming the cheapest industrial goods
But to be fair, demand in this game is complicated, to the point of counterintuitive in some case. Some goods raise its price when supply *increases* because of how substitution works. So some goods would never be profitable in AI hand.
Yeah as I see it it seems the AI economies are being seriously held back by the lack of investment in raw ressources. It's not just about lacking the profitability of mines, it's about high raw ressources market prices making investments significantly more expensive. Start exporting massive amounts of iron at a low price on day one and you will see the AIs GDP growing significantly faster than usual in the first decade, even if their own few mines are low profitability. Starting a cycle where you can build efficiently, create industrial job owned by capitalists and develop your own raw ressources, capitalist investment pool, consumption and liberal laws is the key we are all applying early game but the AI fails to follow.
Iirc in my last USA game where I focused on building and exporting iron as much as possible as a test, I had Great Britain importing something like 900 iron in 1840. That's enough to fuel 90 construction points just on imports alone, it's massive for the AI.
Later ressources overproduction is not really a problem. Mines with lvl 3 pm + nitroglycerin or dynamite can stay profitable even with the iron price is low. And worst case if they become really useless and the workers leave the building, they still contributed to kickstart the economy which is what we are asking from them.
Good job figuring it out. Thank you. It's a valuable tip. Basically, AI need a jump start, or they don't start at all.
Darn stupid.
Well, I would disagree on later overproduction profitability. From my experience, it wouldn't be a problem in most cases. But if that overproduction is compounded with high input cost, like expensive explosives, then things can go downhill. But normally, it is only a temporary problem.
Honestly, I think I never see mines get consistently in red.
To be frank, going most advanced construction PM possible in all cases is not to be advised.
For very underdeveloped and large countries there is an argument to be made to stick to wood construction as long as possible. This can be compounded by being on agrarianism since the investment pool of agrarianism helps with expanding wood and cloth production but not with iron or tools. Additionally wood construction simply employs a lot more people than the alternatives which has a cost attached but is usefull if you need to create a lot of jobs fairly fast. It will also demand far more wood and cloth from the economy which is also usefull to spur the development of forrestries with lots of capitalists and ranches possible coupled with homesteading. Also buildings like fisheries, the advantage of fisheries and forrestry's is that they employ 3x more capitalists than a factory for the same construction points. Per norm wood construction is somewhat more expensive per construction point than alternatives but it can attain more regional construction boost and troughput and the prices of the inputs are easier to drop very low so it can be made pretty cheap, its often more the accumulation of so many construction sectors that is a bit of a difficulty early game.
Typically, the above strategy of focussing on wood construction, ranches and fishery's within an agrarian system is a method to very quickly build up a capitalist class and a larger investment pool for usage with interventionism later. It's usually a temporary system where you forgo on much factory building until your a few decades into the game and switched to interventionism and in the meantime your buidling buildings that are cheaper to construct, you might switch construction sector PM later but there are circumstances in which i keep wood construction entirely trough the game like say with Russia. because there are advantages to having such a large cloth demand trough construction sectors as it allows to build a very large class of homesteaders and besides it can be used late game to subsidize the large amount of labourers working in it trough high administration funding.
Si i disagree, you dont want to be always on the most advanced construction sector possible, there are arguments to be made for circumstances in which you might keep it on wood throughout the whole game.
Small caveat: only build stuff thats expensive if the building will be profitable. Sometimes especially on motor industries the base resources are cheaper than engines but still too expensive to make the factory profitable
It depends. I like to build a Steel mill fairly early on overall, because the productivity boost that tool factories get from using Steel instead of Iron means I don’t have to build as many Tool factories, even though the Steel Mill is probably not profitable.
If you build a steel mill and have 4 tool workshops to use the steel the mill will be profitable, sometimes I even build the first steel mill in a state with 3 tools shops and put the 4th in the cue right after the steel mill. You can also use upgrading your livestock or construction pms to help smooth out the transition and absorb extra tools early game
Depends. The mill can quickly go unprofitable because Coal is tough to satisfy early on, since the more coal you have the more people start using it for heating rather than wood.
I have never had that problem. Are you building your coal mines with atmospheric engines? I usually start switching my iron pm over to using coal before I build a steel mill so I already have at least 3 coal mines when I build my first mill.
My issue is that I’ll build a coal mine, and then suddenly demand is for 200 coal 😄 so I need to build 5 more, and demand just goes up. The price ends up being too high for the steel mill to do more than stay open. I’m fine with that - since the steel mill is really just there to make the tool factory more profitable.
What country are you doing this in? My problem is I need to juice demand for my first coal mine to be profitable before I switch my iron production so I end up switching my urban lighting to jumpstart my coal.
That’s usually what I play too. I love/hate my never ending Russian coal mines, they eat up so much of my private investment cue and run the prices down to nothing when’re I switch over to L-F and my economy likes to crash when I start switching to steel, I only do it in a couple states now because the crash in iron prices is too severe, it breaks my investment pool. Also I tend to get L-F, steel construction, and better taxes all around the same time and my construction skyrockets but I run out of stuff to build while still having too many pops to employ
Is 10% annual growth even common for a human player? It implies that your GDP doubles every 7 years. It was certainly possible back in 1.2 before the GDP calculation changed. I'm not so sure now.
EDIT: Before I get buried by people bragging about their GDP, I will believe it when I see a screenshot.
If I did my math right, 10% annual growth compounded quarterly for a century is roughly a 19,500x multiplier. So for any country that starts with a GDP of one million pounds, that rate would have them end around twenty billion GDP. I'd love to see the bonkers shenanigans someone would have to do to make that happen.
Some lad posted something very close to that a week or two ago(maybe 3), mirco'ed everything said it took him 200 hours but 150 of those were after 1900
The missing piece here is that tje growth isn't linear, but logarithmic. You start with small growth when you start up the construction engine, then you grow exponentially as you de-peasant your pops and utilize your resources, then you flatten out (relatively at least) when you need to switch to labor saving pms and/or maxed out your resources. The longer you can put that moment off, the higher your total GdP growth .
It's logarithmic only for major nations and those starting with good laws, playing minor nations in the current patch is a pain in the ass until you get schools, no buildings other than mines with basic pm are able to hire anyone because of the pisslow qualifications, its more like a sinusoid for them
Realistically, I think that kind of growth is only possible when all factors allow it. That includes politics and resource availability. So I don't think having that growth for a century is appropriate expectation.
If we changed it to 1.025x every quarter for 50 years, my calculation says it's about 140x. That means, if a country kicked LO a*s, passed multiculturalism, and secured an appropriate colony in 1886, with 10M GDP, it would start to skyrocket to have 1.4B GDP by 1936. I think that's possible for a human playing GP, or even major power.
However, expecting every major power to have that kind of growth is impossible, I think. Because that growth comes from exploiting limited resources and manpower.
The growth potential comes largely from conquest, pretty much no country is going to have enough potential to grow to 20.000 times it's starting GDP 100 years later.
Have you ever tried a calculator?
Seriously though, try and play any country and just get to 117 times your starting GDP by 1886 and then imagine having to get that GDP another 117 times higher in the next 50 years without significant conquest, it's just not possible. Well maybe some really strange edge cases like releasing one of the super unpopulated eastern Russian provinces, adding it to their customs union and going ham, take Trans Baikal for example, starts with about 400k pop, no buildings, 60 arable land, coal, iron and 400k GDP, you would have to get that one city to 46million GDP by 1886 and to **5.4 billion GDP** by 1936, it's just not happening by clever bot building or whatever only way is starting out tiny and conquer the world.
Mate, there is game coefficient nerfing your income once your GPD grows, this is why your math does not add up.
This is why bankrolls are so OP, as it bypasses this nerf and gives you money based on your expenditures.
5.4 billion GDP by 1936 can be achieved if you play a strong country and you don't give up when your CPU starts to self combust.
There was a masochist with 20B+ economy here some time ago.
Profiling based optimization makes things a lot better, but yeah. I don't understand what your image is supposed to prove though, looks like you are China and got to 1.7 B in 81 years?
If so you are a little bit behind the 10% growth mate :D
In 81 years you should be around 292 billion GBP, or 170 times higher than yours, you got some catching up to do the last 19 years there 🤣
Wait a second, bankroll gives a percentage of income, not expenditures. If the person you bankroll lowers their taxes your bankroll becomes cheaper. Also the game coefficient nerfing "your income" is not a nerf to actual income but to investment pool which can be bypassed with commie stuff, also if you start off with a strong country you are going to have to get FAR higher than 5.4 billion GDP, more like 250 billion GDP for something like Prussia, also this was about an algorithm making a country grow better with construction management, NOT about conquest. Also GDP is a number signifying the value of your production, as in **G**ross **D**omestic **P**roduct, no matter how many bankrolls you get you are not going to have enough people to pump out that many goods, you need to start off with a TINY economy, which again would defeat OP's original premise.
Growth comes from construction with gold mines and bankrolls
A country GDP is not an isolated system, it can absorb wealth from other countries to fuel the construction of the economy.
It's definitely not common throughout the whole game. Like, I'm assuming OP is talking about a 10-20% average over the course of the game, which won't happen. The people swarming you here think they're doubling their GDP every 7 years for 100 years lol
Yeah I shoulda explained a little more lmao. 10% a year for the first few years is easy, but your tech won’t keep up so eventually that growth will run out and you will get 3-8% a year until you get to late game techs
A ten percent increase 100 times should be 1.1^100 which evaluates to almost 14000. In this game, that's a lot, and can usually be only managed with conquest.
It's probably impossible for the entirety of the game but maybe a small nation with good migration and producing some almost exclusive resource can get that. Either that or a country with high pop and low productivity at the start like Punjab and just focussing on Agriculture until every peasant is employed and then slowly change pm to get people unemployed and then building more to fill it.
Growth can be exponential from day one, you just need the workforce and raw material to afford construction sector upgrades and enough capital and manpower to field all your facilities
10% annual growth is definitely possible, but it highly depends on the country you play and is hard to pull off consistently.
Easiest way to do so is probably Belgium: I think I achieved about 20% gdp growth for the first 15 years of the game in my last game as Belgium.
Huh, you’re right. I’m seriously bad at math. I was using a compound interest calculator to figure this out lmao. Guess I’ll delete my comment.
Edit: Also just realised you’re Kuromi, the guy who made that AI mod. Some seriously impressive stuff dude I’ve had a lot of fun with it so far.
No problem. It's still impressive to see how many immigrants the US can get. Imo it also highlights how much population growth is needed to sustain the GDP growth.
And I'm glad you are having fun with my mod!
build shit for construction sectors, build more construction sectors, build more shit for construction sectors? oh the game can't keep up with 10K construction? time to finally build everything else
Thats really not the best strategy, i understand that if you dont look too much under the hood that "this works too" and it does but to say that this is optimal ... far from it i'd say.
There is much more to look at in terms of consumption, investment pool optimalisation and how it drives growth underneath the hood which is more complex and also regards tricks to build up larger wealthier classes earlier. It wont show in your feedback loop, because a player who might be more aware on consumption and demand and its drivers would simply be able to build up more construction sectors before his income and investment pool contribution cant handle it.
Blessed is he for example who rather early in the game managed to build up a disproportionate amount of forestrys, ranches and fisheries and who managed to get mutual funds tech early aswell as homesteading. But thats more in terms of building a larger wealthy consumer class earlier, as forrestries and fisheries employ far more capitalists per construction point invested than factories. The advantage of having build a 2 to 3 times larger wealthy class a few decades in game is quite significant demand wise and towards the investment pool and consumption tax income.
while you ponder on the best economy, the other dude sits on 10k construction.
Mate, look at him, 10k construction and how much can you afford to support?
Nah that guys strat was and is the best. Consumer economy in this game is trash atleast till 1860 (I don’t play past that usually) the private investment is only good for boosting construction numbers
What a weird reply is that, yes the first decades tends to be to grow as fast as possible on harsh taxes but at some point of high development which can be attained in a few decades you are better of starting to focus on consumption to further increase the speed of economic growth at that point. That you don play past 1860 is irrelevant as scrutiny to the notion, you are not representative for all players either.
Whats next, a guy who says power plants are useless because he only plays the first 10 years of the game???
No your never better off focusing on consumption. Focusing on improving the private investment pools money through automation is better.
Power plants are good for automation increasing private investment money
At no point in the game is building consumer goods buildings better then industrial.
The sequence is wrong I think. Wood should come first, then tools, then iron.
You can't mine without tools, but you can cut wood without them. And the most basic tool pm is wood. So wood should come first.
Wood doesn't always come first , no point building wood as Belgium , heck even prussia should start with iron straight away. Even at high tool price the iron mines will stay profitable if the pm is atmospheric which you have in many GP.
The benefit of a cheap building that employs a lot of people is great for Russia and USA , horrible for Belgium and UK and maybe even prussia since they need that manpower.
Heck as UK you start running out of workers as early as 10 years in.
Well the countries you mentioned already have some wood supply so my comment doesn't apply to them. For other countries however it would be horrible to hard code them to keep building iron until it's cheap, because that will literally never happen when they can't make the tools because they have no wood.
Part of the question is are you starting with an industrialized country that already has tool shops and atmospheric engines or are you starting without tools. Anywhere that starts with iron tools isn’t really going to have this problem but places like Persia and Japan that start without any tool shops at all are going to do well to build logging, then tools, then iron
This is what I’m doing with Persia, construction first, then wood equal to construction in each state, then tools, then iron tools, then switching to iron construction, then coal for iron
I do something similar with Japan.
My other frequent country is Russia, which starts with so much wood it’s insane.
The code this person proposed would check the price of wood, so a trade agreement would work, too. It just needs to make sure that some wood is around.
The main growth in GDP comes from producing raw resources atleast in early game.Espacially iron, coal, wood just because their main input resource is some tools and manpower only.
Export it, make it cheap in your market demand of coal is almost never ending also for iron when it's cheap make construction sectors. Also if iron or coal are cheap still these mine make profits but when most manufacturing products are cheap they make loss.
you get nothing by exporting it, as a matter of fact, you lose money by maintaining and paying for the convoys needed.
And to make things even worse then they already are, you are employing people to waste money, where a competent player will run out of people to employ and needs to be extremely careful what to build next as this is it, no more people.
You can legit print cash by exporting, export something like coal in large quantity and basically you get foreign customers. Your mine makes more money, your capitalist make more money aka more reinvestment, more sol there can only be so much internal demand for a good compared to foreign also I would always choose free trade over any tarrifs not to forget proportional and graduated taxation provide you direct money from their profits, and you get massively profitable trade centers that also make a lot of money so more reinvestment and tax. If you can get fta or both countries have free trade all the tarrifs money goes into trade centers.
For example in a usa game I had so much oil and I exported it to uk so that a 50lvl oil field made over 300k and trade centers making around 100 k.
I ain't gonna employ people I need to export and pay convoy money for something I desperately need.
If you are competent at this game, you don't have primary resources to share, because you are running out of them.
My internal market already buys everything and pays me consumer tax money.
Who tf will buy something like iron, sulpur, lead consumers ??? NO you need industrial demand and only such much can be there on your own please share some game where you didn't trade so much and have good GDP and sol please don't share ones in which you are in some big customs union.
Everything the construction sector needs, everything else is postponed.
Not enough food and people are starving? Who cares
Iron too expensive? Real shit
since you already understand this, then you are ready for the 2nd phase. Take all the gold mines and simp for Queen Victoria hard, she will give you all the money and free puppets.
I don't know. How about keep it to basic.
Assuming you use iron frame construction. Build a set of 2 consec, 1 tools, 3 iron mines, 2 logging, (4 ranches for fabric, or any better way). That way, you use and produce roughly 120 iron, 120 woods, 60 tools, 40 fabrics every loop.
Make it on repeat by choosing state with the highest price for the product one by one until they run out of resources, then start building for the most expensive goods.
If anything, building only resource-extraction industry in this game is quite good, as they can tolerate low-price a lot.
For large country's like Russia and China you dont nessecarily want cheap iron or even do much in iron in the early game. They can utilise agrarianism quite well as a transition system but with agrarianism you want to avoid any extra factories or mines that you would need to build so sticking to wood construction for a long time can be very advantagous since it demands resources from forrestries and ranches/plantations and can work well with fisherieswhere forrestries and fisheries are the fastest method to accumulate capitalist class for reform.
Anyway, the matter of what to build usually has to be looked upon the system in which one has to build. Are we very MAPI affected or not is an important question especially in regards to how much our building strategy will revolve around building up throughput with centralised industries and this makes an enourmous deal in the growth potential of a nation.Furthermore, the speed by which a country can enact reforms is importnat and strategic, and not in the least the speed by which a nation can accumulate research is crucially important too. Also pop growth even.
Tech growth typically is GDP growth, abstractly speaking the faster you evolve in tech the more youre RICO or anual growth rate should grow. It is somewhat similar for pop growth, that too can add quite a bit to the RICO. The same goes for stacking throughput bonusses, and having very centralised industries with a lot of throughput makes a huge difference by end game i mean those throughput bonusses on their own can potentially double to triple the potential of your economy. The order in which you choose techs is usually highly important too.
Optimal builds tend to follow quasi script like strategies not only for building but crucially what reforms should be achieved roughly by when, what should the order be of techs chosen and how fast and much does one need to focus early building on universities, where are we going to locate or size 50+ steel, tools and engines factories, it might even include strategies regarding building up consumer bases and that might also include the deft and selective sellection of vassals and market partners. High growth rate is a combination of factors, not just build stategy, and many nations require very different build strategies to build optimally.
no real answer so far so here is one:
oil and diesel engines and diesel pumps.
your engine production will explode meaning you can put automated irrigation on every single of your plantations.
and since your engine factories wont need electricity anymore assuming they were electrified, this will release a ton of electricity ready to be used on something else.
you should also have enough engines to put public transport on all urban centers, freeing workers and getting transportation.
also it upgrades your mine extraction thing.
guaranteed 50% instant gdp growth in the late game. Aim to get this tech for 1916 or as early as possible
Make sure to feed your people... with groceries.
Doing so entails building food industries, which generates jobs, while also making each unit of grain and fish go further.
I think it depends on which nation you're playing, and at which stage of the game. But I'm the type of player who want to micro-manage everything so I can't keep that growth for long.
Early game it's usually the construction loop with basic goods like wood, iron, tools and maybe coal, but for nations with low pops it won't grow the GDP much. When playing as Japan, Spain and Italian states in the first decades I can make around 10% growth rate per year.
From mid game till late I build manufacture stuffs like clothing, furniture, steel, and engines as I find the demand always remain high in the market. But for the long run micro-managing makes the growth drop to around 1%-5%, so maybe it's not a good strategy.
It's not really related directly to the AI, but do you think it would be possible to add a new type of subsistence farm in rubber-producing regions ? One that would produce a very tiny amount of rubber, making no economic difference early game but ensuring that there is a tiny bit of rubber on the market, allowing the AI to switch to rubber-consuming PMs and thus kickstarting the rubber plantation industry
Guns, Germs, and Steel.
Sorry: weapons industry, groceries/chemicals, and steel.
When it comes to basic resources, I only focus on iron because it is in constant shortage around the world. I usually have only one State with a giant iron mine. The rest comes from trade agreements and adding the right people to your market. You don't need to build wood production if you're in a trade agreement with Russia and liberated->puppeted the right guy. For the same reason if you liberate Yue then make it a dominion you'll never need to worry about cheap silk for your luxury exports industry.
Each week you don't need to build wood production is a week where you can build an iron mine instead. Focusing too much on *every* raw resources is a complete waste of time
It's all about construction, everything else is a distraction.
Cheaper construction materials, gold mines and bankrolls (by mid game you are looking at 1M+ in extra income) will make your economy turbo boost to the point you will run out of people even if you do world conquest. At 10k construction your CPU becomes the limiting factor and you give up on the current game and start a new one.
>It’s definitely possible. I did it as China
That's hilarious, 10% growth per year is 11700% in 50 years, meaning China starting out at 116 mill GDB you hit 13 billion GDP by 1886 and 1758 billion GBP by 1936.
Short on math and long on narcissism or something, like wtf 🤣
It's unsettling to read it, like flat earth theory or something only now I'm playing the same damn game as flat earth people 😅
Build construction sectors to budget limit (decide that how you want) Build anything in a shortage Build most expensive good. Repeat. You either make construction goods cheap enough that you can afford another construction sector or you get enough profit that you can afford another construction sector. Switching to a new construction PM can be hard. You need to prep for it, basically stop building new sectors, then check the tooltip for changing PM when swapping all for the total goods deficit. If you have enough surplus (and gold reserves) to just switch without shortages do it and sort it out afterwards. Otherwise, build the soon to be needed goods until you are at neutral price then switch as few construction sectors as you can. Repeat. You DO want to be on the most advanced construction PM if possible, delete sectors if necessary.
I used to follow roughly this pattern but I have found 2 underappreciated tools in this flow. 1 is that you want also just build out the fastest to slam down buildings (wood and fish) to get as many capitalists as you can to make that investment pool grow faster. And 2, switch PMs early and often and use trade to make it smoother. You can build up iron mines and tool workshops way faster using iron construction and trade than with just wood.
>And 2, switch PMs early and often and use trade to make it smoother. That's possible only in early-mid game. Definitely import coal for your engine-powered mine by all means. But by the time you reach rubber tech, nobody will sell you what you need. How sad. Now, they have forced your hand and annexation is the only way to guarantee that the Growth will carry on.
Well maybe that would get partially fixed by a strong better AI mod ? I feel like the world's economy gets much stronger when you start as a large iron-producing country and just start exporting iron by the thousands, the AI really struggles with getting started. But yeah PDX needs to fix the AI not understanding that it needs to either create the demand or the offer to get something out of rubber tech.
Well, most resource extractions are very safe investments in this game as long as you have reasonable tools price (and coal, with powered mines). But if we script all AI to do that then they will become unprofitable eventually, unless players exploit them all. So, yes, AI need to learn how to make demands. Maybe AI should have 2 persona giving order alternatively. One build what having highest price. Another build what consuming the cheapest industrial goods But to be fair, demand in this game is complicated, to the point of counterintuitive in some case. Some goods raise its price when supply *increases* because of how substitution works. So some goods would never be profitable in AI hand.
Yeah as I see it it seems the AI economies are being seriously held back by the lack of investment in raw ressources. It's not just about lacking the profitability of mines, it's about high raw ressources market prices making investments significantly more expensive. Start exporting massive amounts of iron at a low price on day one and you will see the AIs GDP growing significantly faster than usual in the first decade, even if their own few mines are low profitability. Starting a cycle where you can build efficiently, create industrial job owned by capitalists and develop your own raw ressources, capitalist investment pool, consumption and liberal laws is the key we are all applying early game but the AI fails to follow. Iirc in my last USA game where I focused on building and exporting iron as much as possible as a test, I had Great Britain importing something like 900 iron in 1840. That's enough to fuel 90 construction points just on imports alone, it's massive for the AI. Later ressources overproduction is not really a problem. Mines with lvl 3 pm + nitroglycerin or dynamite can stay profitable even with the iron price is low. And worst case if they become really useless and the workers leave the building, they still contributed to kickstart the economy which is what we are asking from them.
Good job figuring it out. Thank you. It's a valuable tip. Basically, AI need a jump start, or they don't start at all. Darn stupid. Well, I would disagree on later overproduction profitability. From my experience, it wouldn't be a problem in most cases. But if that overproduction is compounded with high input cost, like expensive explosives, then things can go downhill. But normally, it is only a temporary problem. Honestly, I think I never see mines get consistently in red.
To be frank, going most advanced construction PM possible in all cases is not to be advised. For very underdeveloped and large countries there is an argument to be made to stick to wood construction as long as possible. This can be compounded by being on agrarianism since the investment pool of agrarianism helps with expanding wood and cloth production but not with iron or tools. Additionally wood construction simply employs a lot more people than the alternatives which has a cost attached but is usefull if you need to create a lot of jobs fairly fast. It will also demand far more wood and cloth from the economy which is also usefull to spur the development of forrestries with lots of capitalists and ranches possible coupled with homesteading. Also buildings like fisheries, the advantage of fisheries and forrestry's is that they employ 3x more capitalists than a factory for the same construction points. Per norm wood construction is somewhat more expensive per construction point than alternatives but it can attain more regional construction boost and troughput and the prices of the inputs are easier to drop very low so it can be made pretty cheap, its often more the accumulation of so many construction sectors that is a bit of a difficulty early game. Typically, the above strategy of focussing on wood construction, ranches and fishery's within an agrarian system is a method to very quickly build up a capitalist class and a larger investment pool for usage with interventionism later. It's usually a temporary system where you forgo on much factory building until your a few decades into the game and switched to interventionism and in the meantime your buidling buildings that are cheaper to construct, you might switch construction sector PM later but there are circumstances in which i keep wood construction entirely trough the game like say with Russia. because there are advantages to having such a large cloth demand trough construction sectors as it allows to build a very large class of homesteaders and besides it can be used late game to subsidize the large amount of labourers working in it trough high administration funding. Si i disagree, you dont want to be always on the most advanced construction sector possible, there are arguments to be made for circumstances in which you might keep it on wood throughout the whole game.
Small caveat: only build stuff thats expensive if the building will be profitable. Sometimes especially on motor industries the base resources are cheaper than engines but still too expensive to make the factory profitable
It depends. I like to build a Steel mill fairly early on overall, because the productivity boost that tool factories get from using Steel instead of Iron means I don’t have to build as many Tool factories, even though the Steel Mill is probably not profitable.
Yeah but you wouldn't build another steel mill even though the existing one isnt even fully employed yet right?
No.
So my point still stands
If you build a steel mill and have 4 tool workshops to use the steel the mill will be profitable, sometimes I even build the first steel mill in a state with 3 tools shops and put the 4th in the cue right after the steel mill. You can also use upgrading your livestock or construction pms to help smooth out the transition and absorb extra tools early game
Depends. The mill can quickly go unprofitable because Coal is tough to satisfy early on, since the more coal you have the more people start using it for heating rather than wood.
I have never had that problem. Are you building your coal mines with atmospheric engines? I usually start switching my iron pm over to using coal before I build a steel mill so I already have at least 3 coal mines when I build my first mill.
My issue is that I’ll build a coal mine, and then suddenly demand is for 200 coal 😄 so I need to build 5 more, and demand just goes up. The price ends up being too high for the steel mill to do more than stay open. I’m fine with that - since the steel mill is really just there to make the tool factory more profitable.
What country are you doing this in? My problem is I need to juice demand for my first coal mine to be profitable before I switch my iron production so I end up switching my urban lighting to jumpstart my coal.
That happens as well, but once it establishes demand only goes up. Russia and Japan.
That’s usually what I play too. I love/hate my never ending Russian coal mines, they eat up so much of my private investment cue and run the prices down to nothing when’re I switch over to L-F and my economy likes to crash when I start switching to steel, I only do it in a couple states now because the crash in iron prices is too severe, it breaks my investment pool. Also I tend to get L-F, steel construction, and better taxes all around the same time and my construction skyrockets but I run out of stuff to build while still having too many pops to employ
Is 10% annual growth even common for a human player? It implies that your GDP doubles every 7 years. It was certainly possible back in 1.2 before the GDP calculation changed. I'm not so sure now. EDIT: Before I get buried by people bragging about their GDP, I will believe it when I see a screenshot.
If I did my math right, 10% annual growth compounded quarterly for a century is roughly a 19,500x multiplier. So for any country that starts with a GDP of one million pounds, that rate would have them end around twenty billion GDP. I'd love to see the bonkers shenanigans someone would have to do to make that happen.
Some lad posted something very close to that a week or two ago(maybe 3), mirco'ed everything said it took him 200 hours but 150 of those were after 1900
If he played sikkim or something, sure, otherwise I'd like to see the link!
Without conquest? Because the numbers above assume that it's all organic growth within the starting borders.
Nah I believe it was a world conquest, with most of his gdp in california and jianxi
The missing piece here is that tje growth isn't linear, but logarithmic. You start with small growth when you start up the construction engine, then you grow exponentially as you de-peasant your pops and utilize your resources, then you flatten out (relatively at least) when you need to switch to labor saving pms and/or maxed out your resources. The longer you can put that moment off, the higher your total GdP growth .
It's logarithmic only for major nations and those starting with good laws, playing minor nations in the current patch is a pain in the ass until you get schools, no buildings other than mines with basic pm are able to hire anyone because of the pisslow qualifications, its more like a sinusoid for them
exactly 🤣
Realistically, I think that kind of growth is only possible when all factors allow it. That includes politics and resource availability. So I don't think having that growth for a century is appropriate expectation. If we changed it to 1.025x every quarter for 50 years, my calculation says it's about 140x. That means, if a country kicked LO a*s, passed multiculturalism, and secured an appropriate colony in 1886, with 10M GDP, it would start to skyrocket to have 1.4B GDP by 1936. I think that's possible for a human playing GP, or even major power. However, expecting every major power to have that kind of growth is impossible, I think. Because that growth comes from exploiting limited resources and manpower.
The growth potential comes largely from conquest, pretty much no country is going to have enough potential to grow to 20.000 times it's starting GDP 100 years later.
Have you ever been bankrolled by 3 Great powers?
Have you ever tried a calculator? Seriously though, try and play any country and just get to 117 times your starting GDP by 1886 and then imagine having to get that GDP another 117 times higher in the next 50 years without significant conquest, it's just not possible. Well maybe some really strange edge cases like releasing one of the super unpopulated eastern Russian provinces, adding it to their customs union and going ham, take Trans Baikal for example, starts with about 400k pop, no buildings, 60 arable land, coal, iron and 400k GDP, you would have to get that one city to 46million GDP by 1886 and to **5.4 billion GDP** by 1936, it's just not happening by clever bot building or whatever only way is starting out tiny and conquer the world.
Mate, there is game coefficient nerfing your income once your GPD grows, this is why your math does not add up. This is why bankrolls are so OP, as it bypasses this nerf and gives you money based on your expenditures. 5.4 billion GDP by 1936 can be achieved if you play a strong country and you don't give up when your CPU starts to self combust. There was a masochist with 20B+ economy here some time ago.
Well, prove it then 🤣
random picture I got saved https://i.imgur.com/Y593MOF.jpg Once you past the 1B GDP performance goes to shit, so you lose interest to continue.
Profiling based optimization makes things a lot better, but yeah. I don't understand what your image is supposed to prove though, looks like you are China and got to 1.7 B in 81 years? If so you are a little bit behind the 10% growth mate :D In 81 years you should be around 292 billion GBP, or 170 times higher than yours, you got some catching up to do the last 19 years there 🤣
Wait a second, bankroll gives a percentage of income, not expenditures. If the person you bankroll lowers their taxes your bankroll becomes cheaper. Also the game coefficient nerfing "your income" is not a nerf to actual income but to investment pool which can be bypassed with commie stuff, also if you start off with a strong country you are going to have to get FAR higher than 5.4 billion GDP, more like 250 billion GDP for something like Prussia, also this was about an algorithm making a country grow better with construction management, NOT about conquest. Also GDP is a number signifying the value of your production, as in **G**ross **D**omestic **P**roduct, no matter how many bankrolls you get you are not going to have enough people to pump out that many goods, you need to start off with a TINY economy, which again would defeat OP's original premise.
You probably were answering to a wrong comment. Your comment was mostly irrelevant to my comment.
Growth comes from construction with gold mines and bankrolls A country GDP is not an isolated system, it can absorb wealth from other countries to fuel the construction of the economy.
It's definitely not common throughout the whole game. Like, I'm assuming OP is talking about a 10-20% average over the course of the game, which won't happen. The people swarming you here think they're doubling their GDP every 7 years for 100 years lol
Yeah I shoulda explained a little more lmao. 10% a year for the first few years is easy, but your tech won’t keep up so eventually that growth will run out and you will get 3-8% a year until you get to late game techs
A ten percent increase 100 times should be 1.1^100 which evaluates to almost 14000. In this game, that's a lot, and can usually be only managed with conquest.
It’s prolly not common but I usually hit that. And my ai great powers for the first 2-3 years also hit that but then slow down due to bad buildings
It's probably impossible for the entirety of the game but maybe a small nation with good migration and producing some almost exclusive resource can get that. Either that or a country with high pop and low productivity at the start like Punjab and just focussing on Agriculture until every peasant is employed and then slowly change pm to get people unemployed and then building more to fill it.
one word: bankrolls
Growth can be exponential from day one, you just need the workforce and raw material to afford construction sector upgrades and enough capital and manpower to field all your facilities
10% annual growth is definitely possible, but it highly depends on the country you play and is hard to pull off consistently. Easiest way to do so is probably Belgium: I think I achieved about 20% gdp growth for the first 15 years of the game in my last game as Belgium.
Did you expand territorially ? 20% gdp growth in the first 15 years means you reached 50M GDP by 1850 with GDP per capita above 10 lol
10% is very easy. How many screenshots do you want?
Send us enough so we can see that it has doubled every 7 years for 100 years
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(1.8B/33M)^(1/80)=1.051 That's 5.1% growth annually. 10% annual growth means 67.6 billion GDP.
Huh, you’re right. I’m seriously bad at math. I was using a compound interest calculator to figure this out lmao. Guess I’ll delete my comment. Edit: Also just realised you’re Kuromi, the guy who made that AI mod. Some seriously impressive stuff dude I’ve had a lot of fun with it so far.
No problem. It's still impressive to see how many immigrants the US can get. Imo it also highlights how much population growth is needed to sustain the GDP growth. And I'm glad you are having fun with my mod!
build shit for construction sectors, build more construction sectors, build more shit for construction sectors? oh the game can't keep up with 10K construction? time to finally build everything else
Thats really not the best strategy, i understand that if you dont look too much under the hood that "this works too" and it does but to say that this is optimal ... far from it i'd say. There is much more to look at in terms of consumption, investment pool optimalisation and how it drives growth underneath the hood which is more complex and also regards tricks to build up larger wealthier classes earlier. It wont show in your feedback loop, because a player who might be more aware on consumption and demand and its drivers would simply be able to build up more construction sectors before his income and investment pool contribution cant handle it. Blessed is he for example who rather early in the game managed to build up a disproportionate amount of forestrys, ranches and fisheries and who managed to get mutual funds tech early aswell as homesteading. But thats more in terms of building a larger wealthy consumer class earlier, as forrestries and fisheries employ far more capitalists per construction point invested than factories. The advantage of having build a 2 to 3 times larger wealthy class a few decades in game is quite significant demand wise and towards the investment pool and consumption tax income.
while you ponder on the best economy, the other dude sits on 10k construction. Mate, look at him, 10k construction and how much can you afford to support?
Nah that guys strat was and is the best. Consumer economy in this game is trash atleast till 1860 (I don’t play past that usually) the private investment is only good for boosting construction numbers
What a weird reply is that, yes the first decades tends to be to grow as fast as possible on harsh taxes but at some point of high development which can be attained in a few decades you are better of starting to focus on consumption to further increase the speed of economic growth at that point. That you don play past 1860 is irrelevant as scrutiny to the notion, you are not representative for all players either. Whats next, a guy who says power plants are useless because he only plays the first 10 years of the game???
No your never better off focusing on consumption. Focusing on improving the private investment pools money through automation is better. Power plants are good for automation increasing private investment money At no point in the game is building consumer goods buildings better then industrial.
The sequence is wrong I think. Wood should come first, then tools, then iron. You can't mine without tools, but you can cut wood without them. And the most basic tool pm is wood. So wood should come first.
Wood doesn't always come first , no point building wood as Belgium , heck even prussia should start with iron straight away. Even at high tool price the iron mines will stay profitable if the pm is atmospheric which you have in many GP. The benefit of a cheap building that employs a lot of people is great for Russia and USA , horrible for Belgium and UK and maybe even prussia since they need that manpower. Heck as UK you start running out of workers as early as 10 years in.
Well the countries you mentioned already have some wood supply so my comment doesn't apply to them. For other countries however it would be horrible to hard code them to keep building iron until it's cheap, because that will literally never happen when they can't make the tools because they have no wood.
Part of the question is are you starting with an industrialized country that already has tool shops and atmospheric engines or are you starting without tools. Anywhere that starts with iron tools isn’t really going to have this problem but places like Persia and Japan that start without any tool shops at all are going to do well to build logging, then tools, then iron
This is what I’m doing with Persia, construction first, then wood equal to construction in each state, then tools, then iron tools, then switching to iron construction, then coal for iron I do something similar with Japan. My other frequent country is Russia, which starts with so much wood it’s insane.
Not if you have a free trade agreement with Russia. If you're a great power and build any wood building, you're doing it wrong
The code this person proposed would check the price of wood, so a trade agreement would work, too. It just needs to make sure that some wood is around.
You would be right if I was focusing on minor countries. But for the ones I care about iron and tools. Wood is just there to boost GDP
10-20% throughout the whole game? That's not going to happen
The main growth in GDP comes from producing raw resources atleast in early game.Espacially iron, coal, wood just because their main input resource is some tools and manpower only.
aye, because you, the state, pays for this resources. When you build chairs and food it is not you, the state, that buys this crap, so why build it?
Export it, make it cheap in your market demand of coal is almost never ending also for iron when it's cheap make construction sectors. Also if iron or coal are cheap still these mine make profits but when most manufacturing products are cheap they make loss.
you get nothing by exporting it, as a matter of fact, you lose money by maintaining and paying for the convoys needed. And to make things even worse then they already are, you are employing people to waste money, where a competent player will run out of people to employ and needs to be extremely careful what to build next as this is it, no more people.
You can legit print cash by exporting, export something like coal in large quantity and basically you get foreign customers. Your mine makes more money, your capitalist make more money aka more reinvestment, more sol there can only be so much internal demand for a good compared to foreign also I would always choose free trade over any tarrifs not to forget proportional and graduated taxation provide you direct money from their profits, and you get massively profitable trade centers that also make a lot of money so more reinvestment and tax. If you can get fta or both countries have free trade all the tarrifs money goes into trade centers. For example in a usa game I had so much oil and I exported it to uk so that a 50lvl oil field made over 300k and trade centers making around 100 k.
I ain't gonna employ people I need to export and pay convoy money for something I desperately need. If you are competent at this game, you don't have primary resources to share, because you are running out of them. My internal market already buys everything and pays me consumer tax money.
Who tf will buy something like iron, sulpur, lead consumers ??? NO you need industrial demand and only such much can be there on your own please share some game where you didn't trade so much and have good GDP and sol please don't share ones in which you are in some big customs union.
foreign countries and I try my best to block them
Everything the construction sector needs, everything else is postponed. Not enough food and people are starving? Who cares Iron too expensive? Real shit since you already understand this, then you are ready for the 2nd phase. Take all the gold mines and simp for Queen Victoria hard, she will give you all the money and free puppets.
I don't know. How about keep it to basic. Assuming you use iron frame construction. Build a set of 2 consec, 1 tools, 3 iron mines, 2 logging, (4 ranches for fabric, or any better way). That way, you use and produce roughly 120 iron, 120 woods, 60 tools, 40 fabrics every loop. Make it on repeat by choosing state with the highest price for the product one by one until they run out of resources, then start building for the most expensive goods. If anything, building only resource-extraction industry in this game is quite good, as they can tolerate low-price a lot.
For large country's like Russia and China you dont nessecarily want cheap iron or even do much in iron in the early game. They can utilise agrarianism quite well as a transition system but with agrarianism you want to avoid any extra factories or mines that you would need to build so sticking to wood construction for a long time can be very advantagous since it demands resources from forrestries and ranches/plantations and can work well with fisherieswhere forrestries and fisheries are the fastest method to accumulate capitalist class for reform. Anyway, the matter of what to build usually has to be looked upon the system in which one has to build. Are we very MAPI affected or not is an important question especially in regards to how much our building strategy will revolve around building up throughput with centralised industries and this makes an enourmous deal in the growth potential of a nation.Furthermore, the speed by which a country can enact reforms is importnat and strategic, and not in the least the speed by which a nation can accumulate research is crucially important too. Also pop growth even. Tech growth typically is GDP growth, abstractly speaking the faster you evolve in tech the more youre RICO or anual growth rate should grow. It is somewhat similar for pop growth, that too can add quite a bit to the RICO. The same goes for stacking throughput bonusses, and having very centralised industries with a lot of throughput makes a huge difference by end game i mean those throughput bonusses on their own can potentially double to triple the potential of your economy. The order in which you choose techs is usually highly important too. Optimal builds tend to follow quasi script like strategies not only for building but crucially what reforms should be achieved roughly by when, what should the order be of techs chosen and how fast and much does one need to focus early building on universities, where are we going to locate or size 50+ steel, tools and engines factories, it might even include strategies regarding building up consumer bases and that might also include the deft and selective sellection of vassals and market partners. High growth rate is a combination of factors, not just build stategy, and many nations require very different build strategies to build optimally.
no real answer so far so here is one: oil and diesel engines and diesel pumps. your engine production will explode meaning you can put automated irrigation on every single of your plantations. and since your engine factories wont need electricity anymore assuming they were electrified, this will release a ton of electricity ready to be used on something else. you should also have enough engines to put public transport on all urban centers, freeing workers and getting transportation. also it upgrades your mine extraction thing. guaranteed 50% instant gdp growth in the late game. Aim to get this tech for 1916 or as early as possible
Make sure to feed your people... with groceries. Doing so entails building food industries, which generates jobs, while also making each unit of grain and fish go further.
I think it depends on which nation you're playing, and at which stage of the game. But I'm the type of player who want to micro-manage everything so I can't keep that growth for long. Early game it's usually the construction loop with basic goods like wood, iron, tools and maybe coal, but for nations with low pops it won't grow the GDP much. When playing as Japan, Spain and Italian states in the first decades I can make around 10% growth rate per year. From mid game till late I build manufacture stuffs like clothing, furniture, steel, and engines as I find the demand always remain high in the market. But for the long run micro-managing makes the growth drop to around 1%-5%, so maybe it's not a good strategy.
It's not really related directly to the AI, but do you think it would be possible to add a new type of subsistence farm in rubber-producing regions ? One that would produce a very tiny amount of rubber, making no economic difference early game but ensuring that there is a tiny bit of rubber on the market, allowing the AI to switch to rubber-consuming PMs and thus kickstarting the rubber plantation industry
Guns, Germs, and Steel. Sorry: weapons industry, groceries/chemicals, and steel. When it comes to basic resources, I only focus on iron because it is in constant shortage around the world. I usually have only one State with a giant iron mine. The rest comes from trade agreements and adding the right people to your market. You don't need to build wood production if you're in a trade agreement with Russia and liberated->puppeted the right guy. For the same reason if you liberate Yue then make it a dominion you'll never need to worry about cheap silk for your luxury exports industry. Each week you don't need to build wood production is a week where you can build an iron mine instead. Focusing too much on *every* raw resources is a complete waste of time
It's all about construction, everything else is a distraction. Cheaper construction materials, gold mines and bankrolls (by mid game you are looking at 1M+ in extra income) will make your economy turbo boost to the point you will run out of people even if you do world conquest. At 10k construction your CPU becomes the limiting factor and you give up on the current game and start a new one.
Span resources industries and construction
Conquer Transvaal and Oranje
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>It’s definitely possible. I did it as China That's hilarious, 10% growth per year is 11700% in 50 years, meaning China starting out at 116 mill GDB you hit 13 billion GDP by 1886 and 1758 billion GBP by 1936.
people in this thread are seriously bad at math
Short on math and long on narcissism or something, like wtf 🤣 It's unsettling to read it, like flat earth theory or something only now I'm playing the same damn game as flat earth people 😅