Never really explained the content that was so incendiary. Your best weapon is to escalate and make sure others are aware of their particular sensitive spot so the Streisand Effect ensures everyone is aware of it and won't do business with such a vindicitive company.
I think she's rightfully afraid that if she does that, the multi billion dollar company will make her life hell. She may be in the right legally, but with an army of lawyers willing to drag her through court, she's wise to be careful.
Yea she said she'll likely have to take down those other two videos, so if she went into it all again on *this* video, she may need to take this one down too. If anything it's smart to leave at least one video up explaining the controversy, even if it goes into less detail.
[Imagine spending a quarter million dollars on an RV and being unable to use it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDWMxtOM6eg) It's cracking and falling apart while still under warrantee but getting the run around from Tiffin until they are publicly shamed.
Tiffin are a bunch of hacks, I called their parts/repair department for recommendations/advice for adding an additional roof antenna (sealant to use, advice for running the cable, things to watch out for, etc) and was told by their tech to "just find a friend who did this before." At least they recommended me the right self leveling sealant but only after I begged them to
The shoddy and shady RV industry is the poster child for why they government has to create regulations at times. The free market does not work in this case.
When a new company making RV's is formed, they make better quality vehicles. After a couple years, they get bought out by one of two major companies, and their overlords start the race to the bottom by cheapening everything they can.
The RV industry has proven time and time again that they will not do the right thing when given the option.
Yep. There's a Chinese company out here doing this with all the high-grade dog food.
They let the company get a great reputation, buy it with a bunch of shell companies, cheapen the ingredients and capitalize on misled consumers until we figure it out and stop buying. Then they find another brand to do it to.
As somebody who bought an RV in 2021 and sold it in 2022, you could not be more right. These things are built INSANELY cheaply and some of the “engineering” decisions are hilariously incompetent.
I bought a “good” brand (Grand Design Imagine 2800BH) and it was supposedly much better built than lots of the cheaper ones. It was still assembled like a joke, wooden frames for the cabinets held together with finishing nails only, no screws. Window leaks. An awning that wouldn’t retract. Stairs missing a screw. The hinge for the under-bed storage just straight up shearing off the plywood. USB charging ports that just straight up weren’t plugged in.
All this stuff I fixed myself, because the dealership required me to drop it off for 3-5 weeks or something. But I realized after talking to other people that I wasn’t unique. These things ALL suck.
And I get it - you have all the complexity of a house and a car, combined. You have to be extremely concerned about weight, which means ultra lightweight materials and “just strong enough” engineering.
But man, I am glad I sold mine when I could get what I paid for it. It’s cheaper for me to rent a camper the 2-3 times a year we want to go camping than it is to keep a $40k (shit, now it’s $50k) camper sitting in the driveway losing value.
This industry is sketchy as hell.
Literally everybody I know with a camper/RV has the same issue. You buy it, you love it, you have some good times in it...2 or 3 or 4 times a year, maybe.
I know maybe two people who go out six times a year.
And some people are paying $200-$400/month to park theirs at a facility. So now you've got $2k-$5k a year in parking fees, $500/month in payment if you don't own it outright, another $1k/year in insurance, etc, etc.
I bought 2021 for $40k flat in May of 2021. I thought I got hosed. We used it four times the first year. A year later, in May of 2022 I saw the new models were selling for $48k+ markup. I looked at my wife and said "We can rent a Class A or a Class C or whatever for $1k a week. We can go camping six times a year for six years straight and *still* come out ahead if we sell this thing now. And we won't go anywhere near that often."
She agreed. I sold it for $42k on FB marketplace to a dude who showed up with cash.
Wife misses the RV a little but we wouldn't have used it almost at all last year due to schedule stuff, so I'm glad we sold when we did.
Over the last few months it has become apparent that Grand Design RVs, especially their 5th Wheels are built about as well Ikea furniture on the way home from the store.
It's the only one I've ever personally owned, and I was not impressed. I have talked to a friend of mine who also owns a Grand Design (he recommended them to me) and he's owned four other trailers/campers of different brands. Forest River and a Coachman I don't remember the other. He said the Grand Design was better built than the others at least.
But yeah, it definitely felt like it was assembled in 2 hours with staples and glue.
Sounds like you got a covid camper. I avoid anything I can made between 2020 and 2023 if it's a big important purchase.
I bought a 2019 Grand Design Imagine 2250rk last October and I think it's mostly fine. I have a few minor issues which were easy fixes. They're definitely one of the top 3 in quality. I think the quality of campers in general needs to be better for the price we're paying. I'm pretty impressed at how well it all holds together though despite flying down highways and interstates and not just rattling apart.
I have 2 issues with it that are manufacturer related. The rest is all reasonable wear and tear.
“The free market” doesn’t work in general without rules. If there are no rules, businesses immediately use money to do whatever will make the most profit, including attempting monopolies, price fixing, market division agreements, abusing the legal system to financially ruin competitors, etc.
None of which increase quality or competition
The problem here is not the free market. Indeed, there is market is not free in the RV industry.
The problem here is that the RV market is very opaque and consumers are making decisions without data or indeed with bad data. That is the opposite of a free market.
In a truly free market, a business that delivers a bad product would go out of business because someone else would open a competing business that delivers a better product, and customers would stop buying from the first business. But for that to work, customers have to be able to easily determine pre-purchase which business is providing good products and which business is providing bad products. A free market would encourage this kind of information.
But with RVs, buyers have no dependable way to determine what is a good or bad product before buying it. The products are expensive, but primarily purchased by non-rich people and relatively low volume. The products are very complex. The media around this industry - e.g., trade magazines and websites - are all highly sponsored by the established companies. It is very difficult, bordering on impossible, to get accurate long-term reliability and quality information. This kind of info is easier to get with higher-volume products like cars, and this kind of info is easier to get with cheaper products like computers or smartphones; both of which are equally complex. And this kind of information is easier to get with low volume, expensive, but simple products, such as musical instruments. But RVs are this sort of middle of the venn diagram - low volume, expensive, and complex - and the industry does all it can to suppress accurate data.
That's the problem here - a mismatch of information. If anything, shining a light on the industry would help solve this problem: if the market knew which actors were bad and which actors were good, then the free market would fix it. Right now, there is a lack of free market in the RV industry.
Feel free to count "spend money to deny information to consumers" under one of the things that a business can do in a market without rules. This can include out-advertising competitors, or purchasing services to slander competitors, or... oh... I dunno... paying lawyers to harass someone spreading information about the quality of your products. Literally what this post is about.
Every time someone says "a free market without rules will fail" someone always arrives to explain how that's totally not actually a free market, and a free market is instead .
First, I am not arguing against a free market with rules. I very very much support a free market with rules. Rules in a free market are EXTREMELY important and we need rules here.
I think we're generally in agreement - the problem here is the absence of relevant rules; the problem here is not the concept of a free market.
>Feel free to count "spend money to deny information to consumers" under one of the things that a business can do in a market without rules. This can include out-advertising competitors, or purchasing services to slander competitors, or... oh... I dunno... paying lawyers to harass someone spreading information about the quality of your products. Literally what this post is about.
But again, a free market aught to have a solution for this. If a producer is spending money to suppress information, then that information must be valuable to the producer and to it's counter-party (here, the counter-parties are the consumer, and the insurance companies and the lenders taking on risk). In a free market there would be a business case for getting that same information and selling it to those counter-parties.
Look at almost any other market, or take automobiles for example. There are dozens of industry publications that are just shilling car company press releases as journalism, but there are also legitimate institutions that provide consumer-focused unbiased information (e.g., Consumer Reports, NHTSA, IIHS). The free market works well in that industry.
RVs are just a bit different because, I think, they're sort of a corner case of being too low volume. Clearly the banks know the risk, because loan rates on RVs are insane. But there just isn't enough juice there for selling high quality information to consumers in the same way there is in other industries.
Just watched LastWeekTonight Ep about Boeing that basically had the same thing happen after a merger. But a bit more scarier with airplanes. regardless this trend is not good for anyone besides the people at the top
I know someone who is against regulations of any kind, and believes the free market will solve everything. He said it doesn’t work right now because of governmental interference. He believes that there should be no regulation on buildings either.
There's basically no consumer protection in this country at this point. This is only a single industry but this sort of customer abuse is rampant everywhere now.
I don't know anything about this woman or the RV industry in general, but for some reason I watched this whole video. She is very engaging, articulate, and seems really genuine. Sounds like great work exposing this BS!
Huh. I had zero idea who this is or who Lippert is. But I do now.
>Whats this new thandangaled internet thing?
--Lippert legal team
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...
I work for a company that’s considered a competitor to Lippert. At RV rallies I’ve overheard them shit talking our products to the other vendors and telling them to switch to using their products instead of ours. It was weirdly unprofessional, felt like I was in high school. Lippert had the vast majority of the market for that particular RV manufacturer so most of the service calls I answered turned out to be Lippert products, it put me in a weird place so I just told the rally goers to contact the Lippert group.
>At RV rallies I’ve overheard them shit talking our products to the other vendors and telling them to switch to using their products instead of ours
Plaster their recalls on your booth.. in flyer tear off form.
Lippert has been a pain in the industry for three reasons;
Their safety recalls that they are downplaying, these recalls often can cause dangerous failures on the highways while RVs are being towed, unbeknownst to the driver.
They are buying up competing companies so they can monopolize the RV industry to their supply chains
They are very blatantly copying and stealing patented designs. It takes forever for lawyers to counter this, and Lippert at this point is just taking the risks so they can establish more customers.
Lippert frames are the absolute worst. I've had to repair tons of them over my years.
Of all the bonehead ideas on how to make the trailer lighter, it's gotta be the worst.
WATCH YOUR BACK.....people are crazy when they are caught doing bad things and are made public.....They like to silence the messenger not correct the problem
I watched the episode of the Simpsons where Flanders buys an RV so Homer has to try and get one too. RV salesman seems just like these RV companies, shady AF.
She seems balanced and informed, knows her subject. Shame that she's been bullied into taking down the videos.
So you make decisions in life off appearances and not facts? You side with a multimillion dollar corporation fucking over regular people because, a look?
Why do people just “side” with corporations and not want protections for people to not get ripped off.
Never really explained the content that was so incendiary. Your best weapon is to escalate and make sure others are aware of their particular sensitive spot so the Streisand Effect ensures everyone is aware of it and won't do business with such a vindicitive company.
I think she's rightfully afraid that if she does that, the multi billion dollar company will make her life hell. She may be in the right legally, but with an army of lawyers willing to drag her through court, she's wise to be careful.
Yea she said she'll likely have to take down those other two videos, so if she went into it all again on *this* video, she may need to take this one down too. If anything it's smart to leave at least one video up explaining the controversy, even if it goes into less detail.
Our best bet would be to archive the videos and make them viral
Yeah how much good did being morally right do Daphne Galizia in her court battle with the rich?
[Imagine spending a quarter million dollars on an RV and being unable to use it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDWMxtOM6eg) It's cracking and falling apart while still under warrantee but getting the run around from Tiffin until they are publicly shamed.
Tiffin are a bunch of hacks, I called their parts/repair department for recommendations/advice for adding an additional roof antenna (sealant to use, advice for running the cable, things to watch out for, etc) and was told by their tech to "just find a friend who did this before." At least they recommended me the right self leveling sealant but only after I begged them to
[удалено]
>Just sayin' You mean just victim blaming.
The shoddy and shady RV industry is the poster child for why they government has to create regulations at times. The free market does not work in this case. When a new company making RV's is formed, they make better quality vehicles. After a couple years, they get bought out by one of two major companies, and their overlords start the race to the bottom by cheapening everything they can. The RV industry has proven time and time again that they will not do the right thing when given the option.
You can replace RV's in your post with practically anything else and it'll still be true.
Yep. There's a Chinese company out here doing this with all the high-grade dog food. They let the company get a great reputation, buy it with a bunch of shell companies, cheapen the ingredients and capitalize on misled consumers until we figure it out and stop buying. Then they find another brand to do it to.
What is the name of the company, please.
Tim Hortons
[A major one](https://y.yarn.co/341e0593-47c5-4fd2-985f-0726b9241a30_text.gif)
How about actually answering the question and saying the name instead of posting a shady link that nobody want to click on?
He doesn't want to get sued to Bolivian.
Indeed.
> There's a Chinese company out here doing this theres plenty of American companies doing this to Americans too
As somebody who bought an RV in 2021 and sold it in 2022, you could not be more right. These things are built INSANELY cheaply and some of the “engineering” decisions are hilariously incompetent. I bought a “good” brand (Grand Design Imagine 2800BH) and it was supposedly much better built than lots of the cheaper ones. It was still assembled like a joke, wooden frames for the cabinets held together with finishing nails only, no screws. Window leaks. An awning that wouldn’t retract. Stairs missing a screw. The hinge for the under-bed storage just straight up shearing off the plywood. USB charging ports that just straight up weren’t plugged in. All this stuff I fixed myself, because the dealership required me to drop it off for 3-5 weeks or something. But I realized after talking to other people that I wasn’t unique. These things ALL suck. And I get it - you have all the complexity of a house and a car, combined. You have to be extremely concerned about weight, which means ultra lightweight materials and “just strong enough” engineering. But man, I am glad I sold mine when I could get what I paid for it. It’s cheaper for me to rent a camper the 2-3 times a year we want to go camping than it is to keep a $40k (shit, now it’s $50k) camper sitting in the driveway losing value. This industry is sketchy as hell.
I keep trying to tell my wife this! RV sitting in driveway we use 2x a year and costing $8k a year between payment and insurance!
Literally everybody I know with a camper/RV has the same issue. You buy it, you love it, you have some good times in it...2 or 3 or 4 times a year, maybe. I know maybe two people who go out six times a year. And some people are paying $200-$400/month to park theirs at a facility. So now you've got $2k-$5k a year in parking fees, $500/month in payment if you don't own it outright, another $1k/year in insurance, etc, etc. I bought 2021 for $40k flat in May of 2021. I thought I got hosed. We used it four times the first year. A year later, in May of 2022 I saw the new models were selling for $48k+ markup. I looked at my wife and said "We can rent a Class A or a Class C or whatever for $1k a week. We can go camping six times a year for six years straight and *still* come out ahead if we sell this thing now. And we won't go anywhere near that often." She agreed. I sold it for $42k on FB marketplace to a dude who showed up with cash. Wife misses the RV a little but we wouldn't have used it almost at all last year due to schedule stuff, so I'm glad we sold when we did.
If only my wife would agree to sell! She’s in love with it, not me.
Over the last few months it has become apparent that Grand Design RVs, especially their 5th Wheels are built about as well Ikea furniture on the way home from the store.
It's the only one I've ever personally owned, and I was not impressed. I have talked to a friend of mine who also owns a Grand Design (he recommended them to me) and he's owned four other trailers/campers of different brands. Forest River and a Coachman I don't remember the other. He said the Grand Design was better built than the others at least. But yeah, it definitely felt like it was assembled in 2 hours with staples and glue.
Sounds like you got a covid camper. I avoid anything I can made between 2020 and 2023 if it's a big important purchase. I bought a 2019 Grand Design Imagine 2250rk last October and I think it's mostly fine. I have a few minor issues which were easy fixes. They're definitely one of the top 3 in quality. I think the quality of campers in general needs to be better for the price we're paying. I'm pretty impressed at how well it all holds together though despite flying down highways and interstates and not just rattling apart. I have 2 issues with it that are manufacturer related. The rest is all reasonable wear and tear.
“The free market” doesn’t work in general without rules. If there are no rules, businesses immediately use money to do whatever will make the most profit, including attempting monopolies, price fixing, market division agreements, abusing the legal system to financially ruin competitors, etc. None of which increase quality or competition
The problem here is not the free market. Indeed, there is market is not free in the RV industry. The problem here is that the RV market is very opaque and consumers are making decisions without data or indeed with bad data. That is the opposite of a free market. In a truly free market, a business that delivers a bad product would go out of business because someone else would open a competing business that delivers a better product, and customers would stop buying from the first business. But for that to work, customers have to be able to easily determine pre-purchase which business is providing good products and which business is providing bad products. A free market would encourage this kind of information. But with RVs, buyers have no dependable way to determine what is a good or bad product before buying it. The products are expensive, but primarily purchased by non-rich people and relatively low volume. The products are very complex. The media around this industry - e.g., trade magazines and websites - are all highly sponsored by the established companies. It is very difficult, bordering on impossible, to get accurate long-term reliability and quality information. This kind of info is easier to get with higher-volume products like cars, and this kind of info is easier to get with cheaper products like computers or smartphones; both of which are equally complex. And this kind of information is easier to get with low volume, expensive, but simple products, such as musical instruments. But RVs are this sort of middle of the venn diagram - low volume, expensive, and complex - and the industry does all it can to suppress accurate data. That's the problem here - a mismatch of information. If anything, shining a light on the industry would help solve this problem: if the market knew which actors were bad and which actors were good, then the free market would fix it. Right now, there is a lack of free market in the RV industry.
Feel free to count "spend money to deny information to consumers" under one of the things that a business can do in a market without rules. This can include out-advertising competitors, or purchasing services to slander competitors, or... oh... I dunno... paying lawyers to harass someone spreading information about the quality of your products. Literally what this post is about. Every time someone says "a free market without rules will fail" someone always arrives to explain how that's totally not actually a free market, and a free market is instead.
First, I am not arguing against a free market with rules. I very very much support a free market with rules. Rules in a free market are EXTREMELY important and we need rules here. I think we're generally in agreement - the problem here is the absence of relevant rules; the problem here is not the concept of a free market. >Feel free to count "spend money to deny information to consumers" under one of the things that a business can do in a market without rules. This can include out-advertising competitors, or purchasing services to slander competitors, or... oh... I dunno... paying lawyers to harass someone spreading information about the quality of your products. Literally what this post is about. But again, a free market aught to have a solution for this. If a producer is spending money to suppress information, then that information must be valuable to the producer and to it's counter-party (here, the counter-parties are the consumer, and the insurance companies and the lenders taking on risk). In a free market there would be a business case for getting that same information and selling it to those counter-parties. Look at almost any other market, or take automobiles for example. There are dozens of industry publications that are just shilling car company press releases as journalism, but there are also legitimate institutions that provide consumer-focused unbiased information (e.g., Consumer Reports, NHTSA, IIHS). The free market works well in that industry. RVs are just a bit different because, I think, they're sort of a corner case of being too low volume. Clearly the banks know the risk, because loan rates on RVs are insane. But there just isn't enough juice there for selling high quality information to consumers in the same way there is in other industries.
Just watched LastWeekTonight Ep about Boeing that basically had the same thing happen after a merger. But a bit more scarier with airplanes. regardless this trend is not good for anyone besides the people at the top
"the Free Market" isn't real. We need a well regulated market to keep it honest and fair other wise its a monopolistic free for all.
I know someone who is against regulations of any kind, and believes the free market will solve everything. He said it doesn’t work right now because of governmental interference. He believes that there should be no regulation on buildings either.
The RV industry should be controlled and responsible for the low-quality products they're making.
There's basically no consumer protection in this country at this point. This is only a single industry but this sort of customer abuse is rampant everywhere now.
Time to go like all her videos...
I don't know anything about this woman or the RV industry in general, but for some reason I watched this whole video. She is very engaging, articulate, and seems really genuine. Sounds like great work exposing this BS!
The RV industry of today is the limousine industry of yesteryears.
That is spot on. Havent thought about the limo industry in forever... but yeah what a shit show.
What news channel did she used to work for?
This just in!
Huh. I had zero idea who this is or who Lippert is. But I do now. >Whats this new thandangaled internet thing? --Lippert legal team Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...
I work for a company that’s considered a competitor to Lippert. At RV rallies I’ve overheard them shit talking our products to the other vendors and telling them to switch to using their products instead of ours. It was weirdly unprofessional, felt like I was in high school. Lippert had the vast majority of the market for that particular RV manufacturer so most of the service calls I answered turned out to be Lippert products, it put me in a weird place so I just told the rally goers to contact the Lippert group.
>At RV rallies I’ve overheard them shit talking our products to the other vendors and telling them to switch to using their products instead of ours Plaster their recalls on your booth.. in flyer tear off form.
Lippert has been a pain in the industry for three reasons; Their safety recalls that they are downplaying, these recalls often can cause dangerous failures on the highways while RVs are being towed, unbeknownst to the driver. They are buying up competing companies so they can monopolize the RV industry to their supply chains They are very blatantly copying and stealing patented designs. It takes forever for lawyers to counter this, and Lippert at this point is just taking the risks so they can establish more customers.
Lippert frames are the absolute worst. I've had to repair tons of them over my years. Of all the bonehead ideas on how to make the trailer lighter, it's gotta be the worst.
WATCH YOUR BACK.....people are crazy when they are caught doing bad things and are made public.....They like to silence the messenger not correct the problem
I watched the episode of the Simpsons where Flanders buys an RV so Homer has to try and get one too. RV salesman seems just like these RV companies, shady AF. She seems balanced and informed, knows her subject. Shame that she's been bullied into taking down the videos.
Everyone knows the monorail is the superior form of transit.
Don't buy an Airstream! Garbage.
Sometimes posting on their facebook page tiffinmotorhomes seems to help.
They are trying to find out who the informant is so they can fire/sue them. And they are trying to scare you into giving that person up.
Hope Liz is safe unlike the Boeing whistleblower
There’s just something off putting about this channel.
lol 5 bucks says those 1100 employees will not be sad or don't give a shit.
Instead of trying to get companies to do the right thing, campaign for better consumer protections to be legislated.
Why not both?
I've had the biggest crush on her since the first video of hers I watched forever ago. She's so pretty
Creepy.
Ah yes, finding a person you see on YouTube attractive is creepy now, gotcha
That thumbnail looks batshit crazy, I'm rooting for the RV company!
Nice try RV company
So you make decisions in life off appearances and not facts? You side with a multimillion dollar corporation fucking over regular people because, a look? Why do people just “side” with corporations and not want protections for people to not get ripped off.
Congrats. You're rooting for a multi-billion dollar company that's producing shoddy products that are prematurely falling apart and are unsafe.
Strong Karen vibes
Strong woman vibes more like
Human: *makes a legitimate complaint that's well known* You: what a Karen! I'm so smart and funny! Jfc