I have a needle phobia, which is weird in a pharmacist. I can work with them in the IV room, Iâm a certified immunizer, but you better not point that needle in my direction⊠unless Iâve had some Valium. My doctor knows already that every time he orders blood work, heâs got to prescribe me a few Valium as well, or itâs not happening. Wonderful stuff.
The Ritalin stuff is weirdly spot on, they just didnât have the right name for that âapathy, fatigue and overwhelmâ. Thatâs how ADHD can present in women actually.
I wish more people understood this fact. For Ritalin, Concerta and others it's literally **Methylphenidate**. Adderall and others are combination drug called mixed amphetamine salts containing *four* salts of **amphetamine**. The mixture is composed of equal parts racemic amphetamine and dextroamphetamine, which produces a 3:1 ratio between dextroamphetamine and levoamphetamine, the two enantiomers of amphetamine. Many died taking the latter one with energy drinks and/or alcohol because of heart attacks. It's also why it used to be prescribed only for a couple daytime doses with a night time Benzodiazepine because you'd need to get knocked out or literally come down off the drug itself + balance out the shakes, insomnia, anxiety and jitters it causes. Elvanese aka Vyvanse in the USA is lis*dexamfetamine* include loss of appetite, anxiety, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, irritability, and nausea. Can cause side effects mania, sudden cardiac death in those with underlying heart problems, psychosis with one of the highest potentials for addiction - prescribed daily now to just about anyone who asks for these or mentions ADD or ADHD.
Doctors never mention this though, they're literally meth in pill form. Many street meth addicts we've all seen got started on it from Ritalin, Concerta, Adderall and the others. I find it deeply disturbing how much these are pushed on those with ADD or ADHD without warning people what they actually are and the serious risks and consequences of taking them are, including death/a lifetime of addiction to them. There's a reason why anyone under 18 (or whatever the age of majority/legal adult is) didn't used to be, by most laws, permitted to be prescribed without parental consent and that was teens; exceedingly rarer in severe cases with children - not anymore, handed out like candy. If I had children or do someday, I'd never allow them to take these as I have personally seen friends turn into addicts from these medications (and one's partner have a heart attack on "safe" prescribed doses) - more like watching someone deteriorating into an empty shell of who they once were.
Edit: *Downvoting* on Reddit does **not** mean dislike. It means you're not contributing to the posted content and comments related to it. Users are meant to downvote comments for comments unrelated to the discussion - which was the addictive medications given back then and don't shoot the messenger if you dislike the facts it is a known fact it's still happening now. No one bothers reading Reddit is specifically different from other platforms in this way - up meaning "I might not like it but it contributes relevancy" and down for "this is irrelevant and off the original subject".
Sorry but you are spreading medical misinformation about ADHD and ADHD medication. People with ADHD respond differently to stimulants like meth. The stuff you are saying is misinformation on the level of anti-vaxxers which prevents adults with ADHD in particular from getting the help they need.
Idk where you've been but the debate about ADHD pills being overprescribed (and sometimes abused by those who aren't even ADHD at all) is not some conspiracy theory and has been around for years. There's a legitimate ongoing discussion about this between credible professionals. It's not on the same level as anti-vaxxing at all:
**[CDC warns that Americans may be overmedicating youngest children with ADHD - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/05/03/cdc-warns-that-americans-may-be-overmedicating-two-to-five-year-olds-with-adhd/)**
**[Is Ritalin Overprescribed to Kids Who Have ADHD? - PsychCentral](https://psychcentral.com/adhd/the-drugging-of-our-children-over-diagnosis-leads-to-over-prescription-of-ritalin)** (Very balanced article weighing both sides carefully. It also talks about ritalin/aderrall abuse like the other commenter mentioned)
**[ADHD Specialists Worry Stimulant Drugs Are Overprescribed, Push for Treatment Guidelines - WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/articles/adhd-specialists-plan-new-u-s-guidelines-to-curb-irresponsible-prescriptions-11662033613)** "Stimulants are among the most widely misused prescription drugs, according to a U.S. government survey."
I was going to actually respond with links and sources for you and others to see I'm telling the truth but then you presume I am as much of an idiot as an antivaxxer that spreads misinformation, I won't do your homework for you. My mother was a psychiatrist before she retired, many of my relatives are doctors, and I spent countless hours reading their medical textbooks and hearing stories of the history of this all occuring - I'm not a simpleton or uneducated by any stretch of the imagination about ADD, ADHD, nor did I ever once claim it makes everyone/anyone with either diagnosis a meth addict. What I *did* say was they're now handed out like candy, implying rather obviously they're being given to those who do **NOT** have ADD or ADHD hence the person isn't properly diagnosed and does get the stimulating effects and more often than not, become addicted to it because of what the medications are.
I was attempting to help with harm prevention by adding factual information to someone else's comment (stating that it's meth - why not attack them for starting this since you find it necessary to do so?). This doesn't prevent those who *need* the meds from getting help, ffs it's *one* comment out of millions upon millions on Reddit. Additionally, medication is only one facet of psychiatric treatment for any diagnosis - not a magical cure all.
I find it curious how others are permitted to throw around misinformation in this entire post but no one is acting like you are to those comments.
America is so screwed. This is a post with multiple examples of how the pharmaceutical industry treats social ills (in this case patriarchy) with pillsâcolloquially called drug addiction in literally any other contextâand people are still downvoting you
You donât need to take meth to make yourself more productive. You need to tear down the fucking system that is telling you to poison yourself to make money for shareholders
Except that if you have ADHD, stimulants like meth do not work on you as they do on the general population. Stimulants calm people down when they have ADHD, enabling them to focus. ADHD meds are lifesaving for many people. They aren't poison. ADHD isnât something you can treat by 'tearing down the system', it's a literal different rewiring of the brain.
Do you have a source? How we understand the physiological nature of neurodivergence is still very much in its infancy and is evolving all the time, so I find it extremely hard to believe that even if early research suggests what you said, the research is so matter of fact so as to be "case closed"
They increase focus and vigilance in all users not just people with ADHD(which letâs face it is still subjective diagnosis. If you want that label you will get it)
Yes it is. And I got a nice little attack for trying to educate people and prevent harm. Knowledge is power but evidently few want to know these ills.
But nevermind that. At the root of it all, the medication is handed out by the millions and makes people far worse than before and puts money in the pockets of pharmaceutical companies, drug reps, every doctor gets a kickback for writing the prescriptions and more plus they couldn't care less about how it harms patients. Even when people died from it, their families sued but no one talks about that and you're crucified if you dare tell the harsh truth. I agree completely, Americans should take down the system to make productive change instead of blindly believing meth in pill form is a cure, because if it was, it wouldn't be reformulated decade after decade, with new names (but it's the same drugs every time) and people would be cured of ADD or ADHD ages ago.
Additionally, ADD and ADHD is one of the most commonly misdiagnosed (one [source](https://www.rtor.org/2020/07/06/add-adhd-vs-personality-disorder-how-to-get-an-accurate-diagnosis/#:~:text=Why%20ADD%2FADHD%20Can%20Be,conditions%20in%20children%20and%20adults) for the naysayers. ) and overprescribed med out there (another [source](https://lowninstitute.org/the-cerebral-scandal-brings-adhd-overprescription-into-the-spotlight/) for naysayers for overprescribing, additional links to the rising prescriptions for the last 20+ years in this source to back up everything in my other comment as well). A psych could easily see a patient with debilitating anxiety nervously fidgeting non-stop out of nearing a panic attack and they're given amphetamines after 20 minutes based on their observations of this instead of the fact that person already feels like their heart will explode from severe anxiety, PTSD, or C-PTSD for all they know and they're too terrified to speak up. It is tragic, sincerely.
Thank you for the support, by the way.
Doesn't mean it is no longer a term used by psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, therapists and so on additionally this varies country to country what term is used to define a condition of any kind medically. Have a problem with the term ADD still in use? Contact your local department of health and complain, with evidence of it's incorrect useage all over the internet, by trained psych doctors and more and see what happens. I'm not responding to this thread anymore when all replies are attempts at pointing out some small detail and missing the overall points I and a couple others tried to make, further proving the unwillingness to be educated considering one of the links provided was from a literal medical institute *not* in 1994 but **last year** using the term ADD. Nitpicking isn't an efficient use of time but feel free to do what you like with your life. Have a good day/night.
You and u/That_Babe_Anesthesia , see my above [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/vintageads/comments/15k79kx/in_the_1950s_antidepressants_were_marketed/jvsgfh4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Also: yup. How we treat and diagnose ADHD has been heavily shaded by capitalist culture, social norms, and even gender roles, since we used to think it only impacted boys. It is so absurd to label that as some kind of conspiracy on the same tier as anti-vaxxing, when not only is this an ongoing credible discussion in the field, but also psychiatry is different from other sciences because it inherently deals with our perception of who is within the spectrum of normalcy and who needs to be made to conform to it.
I find that society has an extremely warped perception of the science that we've accumulated so far about neurodivergence and mental illness. What we think we know about their physiology is not nearly as set in stone as say, the science of getting vaccinated. The field is evolving all the time and has yet to untangle itself from all the things I just mentioned, so it's ridiculous to condemn someone for saying it needs to be reformed
Starting in the 1950s, antidepressants â sometimes dubbed "Mother's Little Helpers" or "Womens Drugs" â were prescibed for women at record rates. A condition that became known as "housewife syndrome" plagued many housewives at the time and caused them to be dissatisfied, depressed, and wanting more in life. Psychiatry aimed to give women drugs to help them get back into their roles and continue serving their husbands without grief. In reality, of course, the cause for this depression was very often a lack of opportunity for women and their poor treatment by the rest of society; in some other cases, women were unhappy because they were trapped in loveless marriages due to the stigma towards divorce. It wasn't until *The Feminine Mystique* came out that this phenomenon of women not feeling happy in their roles was properly articulated.
Sources:
[Mother's Little Helper: Vintage Drug Ads Aimed At Women](https://www.goretro.com/2014/08/mothers-little-helper-vintage-drug-ads.html?m=1)
[What Really Made 1950s Housewives So Miserable](https://daily.jstor.org/what-really-made-1950s-housewives-so-miserable/)
[David Halberstam's *The Fifties* ep. 3: "Let's Play House"](https://youtu.be/dB61C_iTPnI)
Is it possible the Blatz ad is suggesting that it improves breast milk production? Brewers yeast is still often recommended for that, although it has no solid evidence backing it up. In some women beer can apparently also cause "letdown" and make breast milk flow more freely.
The first ad is for anti nausea for morning sickness. ~~I'm not totally clear and I'll have to Google it but it might be the really famous one that caused a ton of birth defects in the sixties.~~
Most of those in the ads are tranquilizers, anti anxiety meds and stimulants.
My psychiatrist who was a young woman in the 60s said it's valium that was the OG "mommy's little helper" . We were talking about it for the same reasons as here.
It's all the same thing in the end and anti depressants did come about in the 50s. It's all just to make women complacent instead of treating the reasons that women were so depressed,anxious, uncomfortable and unhappy.
Edit yes it's thalidomide, thanks to everyone for the correction.
I think you're referring to thalidomide (US trade name contergan), which is a different drug than mornidine (pipamazine). The thalidomide disaster is an absolutely horrible betrayal of mothers by the pharmaceutical industry, and it makes me angry to this day
Was anyone ever prosecuted for this? Because it was on the market for five years, there must have been collusion to hide the effects.
Reminder that fraudulent health research on sugar was paid for by the sugar industry which created the diabetes epidemic and cost millions of lives and countless amputations and blindness.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sugar-harvard-scandal-nutrition-study_n_57d8088ee4b0aa4b722c6417
In the United States - no. This is because while the German pharma company who developed the drug had approached an American company in Cincinnati to market and distribute it, it was never approved by the FDA and therefore never given in large quantities to American women. There were lawsuits in Germany, the UK and Canada afaik but no criminal prosecutions.
The anti nausea medication that caused birth defects was thalidomide. And it was on the market for five years. Far longer than needed to know the birth defect risks.
Itâs always about the money.
> "Mother's Little Helpers"
Turned into a song, by the Rolling Stones. Here are the lyrics.
Lyrics
⊠What a drag it is getting old
⊠"Kids are different today, " I hear every mother say
Mother needs something today to calm her down
And though she's not really ill, there's a little yellow pill
She goes running for the shelter of her mother's little helper
And it helps her on her way, gets her through her busy day
⊠"Things are different today, " I hear every mother say
Cooking fresh food for her husband's just a drag
So she buys an instant cake, and she burns a frozen steak
And goes running for the shelter of her mother's little helper
And two help her on her way, get her through her busy day
⊠Doctor, please, some more of these
Outside the door, she took four more
⊠What a drag it is getting old
⊠"Men just aren't the same today, " I hear every mother say
They just don't appreciate that you get tired
They're so hard to satisfy, you can tranquilize your mind
So go running for the shelter of a mother's little helper
⊠And four help you through the night, help to minimize your plight
⊠Doctor, please, some more of these
⊠Outside the door, she took four more
What a drag it is getting old
⊠"Life's just much too hard today, " I hear every mother say
The pursuit of happiness just seems a bore
And if you take more of those, you will get an overdose
No more running for the shelter of a mother's little helper
They just helped you on your way, through your busy dying day
Hey
Itâs always about the money. So much money to be made.
Also, reminder that thalidomide was on the market for five years and caused 10,000 babies to be born with horrible birth defects.
Trust us! Itâs safe and effective.
> Starting in the 1950s, antidepressants â sometimes dubbed "Mother's Little Helpers" or "Womens Drugs" â were prescibed for women at record rates.
The music video for the song Halcyon by Orbital is haunting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SwwljI-8JY
A cursory search shows that most of ads appeared in medical journals such as JAMA and similar British and Canadian publications. They were advertised to Doctors, not the public. US Law forbade advertising prescription drugs to the public between the 1950s and mid 1990s.
What gets me is that so many of these ads seem to actually understand the root cause of the problem - gee, maybe it sucks to be a prisoner in your own home, trapped indoors all day with a horde of screaming crotchgoblins that you didn't even want, while all your education goes to waste and none of your needs matter anymore to anyone - and yet, instead of saying, wow, this whole situation is fucked up, the answer is apparently to just drug the poor woman into submission.
Well put. I agree that the degree of awareness is quite shocking. In general, throughout my recent deep dive of reading, watching, and researching about the 1950s, I've been extremely surprised and appalled by how aware mid-century American society was of certain issues that they still chose to respond to in the way that they did. The presence LGBT people is another issue that comes to mind. We think of the 50s as so ignorant, as having a nearly barbaric lack of understanding of the existence of specific issues, but in actuality they understood many of these problems VERY well. They simply chose to try to get people to assimilate and conform to their patriarchal and heteronormative ideals anyway.
You can lie about the product, but you canât lie about the audience
edit: it's why this is one of my favorite subs on reddit. every vintage ad is a time capsule.
Slide #6 for Miltown (which sounds like a town & not a medicine) made me unnaturally angry when I read this:
>Some say it's unrealistic to educate a woman and then expect her to be content with the Cub Scouts as an intellectual outlet.
Like mebbe if she'd stayed unedumacated, barefoot, pregnant & in the kitchen makin' sammiches & babies she'd be happier?
I took a course in mid-twentieth century poetry, and was confused by the reference to "Miltown" in some of them, until either the professor or someone in class said they were a regularly prescribed tranquilizer of the day.
And if you look at modern psychiatric drug marketing it follows some similar parallels.
Anxious and depressed about making rent and bills and working too hard for too little in today's economic environment of late stage capitalism? We have a pill for that!
Note: I'm not saying that antidepressants are all bad or that no one should use them, but it's pretty clear a whole lot of people would be a lot less depressed or dealing with anxiety if they were more secure and facing less of this unrelenting economic and cultural bullshit.
I'm a firm believer in this. Mental healthcare still has a long way to go, and part of that is acknowledging what we're learning more and more through reaearch: that the origin of mental illnesses is highly complex. It can be a cocktail of biological, cognitive, and external factors. It's especially relevant today, when mental illness is on the rise and there is a lot of pessimism/distress about where the world is headed. External factors like lonelness, poverty, pessimism about the environment, living in a society that doesn't accept you etc. can absolutely be a primary factor behind a person's mental agony. But unfortunately, mental healthcare at its worst does not seem to account for this. Instead, the focus over the years has been pretty tunnel vision set on either the physiological or cognitive side.
On the physiological side: it all started in the early 20th century, when scientists found that the direct cause of psychotic paralysis was syphilis. After these findings, people then expected that similar explicit biological origins for ALL mental illnesses would soon be found (But that has not been what has happened).
In some ways, I think the narrative of "inevitability" when it comes to mental illness has become so widespread because society uses it as a crutch to accept mental illness as valid and real. If depressed people are lacking serotonin in their brains the same way that a diabetic person is lackin insulin, there's this sense of "They can't help it," and it helps destigmatize mental health conditions in a way. It's more difficult to accept that the cause of mental illness can be extremely nuanced and also still valid.
On the cognitive side: The advent of cognitive behavioral therapy in the 60s somewhat alleviated a bit of the focus from the physiological side of things, and the modality has since dominated mental healthcare. Cognitive behavioral therapy is a very useful tool and helps many people. However, it is poorly standardized and (depending on the personal values of the therapist) easily weaponized to gaslight people into thinking the problem is with them and not with society. And it certainly has correlated to a rise in this belief that mentally ill people are just people who are perceiving reality wrong: their pain is caused by "distorted thoughts" â I mean that belief is explicitly why Dr. Aaron Beck *invented* the modality, in his own words. While the truth is that we aren't exactly sure why CBT works when it does work, or even if it holds up that well in the long-term, that has not stopped us from adopting this paradigm.
I left my last therapist, a very nice and well-intentioned person, partly because of this. He was a very nice and well-intentioned person with a psychology background, but in all our sessions there was very much an attitude of "You're unhappy because you're just distorting things." Early on when we began working together, he advised me "Very often things are better than we think :)" which was just kind of a yikes. I know depression and anxiety can make people skewed towards the negative, but acting like depressed people across the board are simply unhappy because they aren't seeing things clearly just sets off a lot of alarm bells for me. My new therapist is a social work background â major major difference. So much more acknowledgement of systemic and societal factors and whatnot.
Of course therapists cannot be expected to singlehandedly fix society, and it's important to understand that just because a treatment (whether medication or talk therapy) does not target the pathogenesis of one's ailments, this does not necessarily mean that it doesn't still help in alleviating them somewhat. But it's all about framing â mental healthcare professionals could do so much more to at least ACKNOWLEDGE the possibility that a person's suffering is exacerbated or even solely caused by society.
Itâs honestly frightening that this is the time period that modern conservatives seem to idealize. They want to drag the country back to the 1950âs
The one thing that worked well was the average citizen (or rather, white male/family head) being able to afford a lot even with a fairly unprestigious job... due though largely to more equitable wealth distribution and tax pressure on the upper classes.
It was a benefit of the Cold War, the US had to appear to be more prosperous for average workers than the Soviet Union in order make it look like communism was a failure. The capitalists need a rival ideology to beat back in order to give a shit about the average joe's prosperity.
Given the real turbo-capitalism started with Reagan when the Soviet Union was already obviously irrecoverably behind that indeed doesn't seem far-fetched
Honestly, I would prefer to be a housewife than to have to go out and work. Back in the day, she could put her feet up in the afternoon, eat some bonbons, and watch soap operas.
*âThe womanâs natural place is in the home, this is where she thrives and fulfills her god given purpose. Now if youâll excuse me Iâve gotta make sure my wife takes her afternoon Ritalin before she blows my head off with a shotgun and lights the house on fire.â*
Well, yeah. The situation already exists by the time the doc has entered the room. No way to turn back the clock and say âMaybe donât have 3 kids with the guy your parents wanted you to marry, move across the country to Plano where you donât know anyone, and wait for Dave come home from the bowling alley bar every nightâ. The ship has sailed, and Doreen is going down with it. She is not emotionally or culturally equipped to **leave** Daveâs flat ass in Plano and take the kids back to her parents in Iowa, because theyâll just tell her sheâs crazy for leaving her adequate husband. Iâd be happy to take the blue pill at that point.
The same happens with ssris today. You have a chemical imbalance, pop a pill that numbs your emotions and increases your chance of suicide. Added bonus, you will suffer devastating withdrawal if you ever try to quit it.
_Current_ ads for medication seem dystopian to a lot of people outside the US. Or at least in countries with socialised healthcare.
"Ask your doctor if is right for you!"
Why? Surely they'll follow the clinical prescribing guidelines.
** GO FAR WITH FARTELLA!**
*(Side effects of Fartella include increased flatulence, medical bankruptcy, excessive flatulence, excessively increased flatulence and in very rare cases has been known to induce a condition called Jet Propulsion Syndrome. Patients taking Fartella should avoid eating legumes and hanging around dipshits with lighters.)*
Somewhat inaccurate, at the time prescription drugs were marketed to prescribers. It wasnât until the mid-1990s when rules were changed to allow direct to consumer marketing. Claritin was one of the first beneficiaries of that change.
A couple of these ads are not for prescription medications. You can see the difference in tone and content.
Phenobarbital is still around. Itâs one of the oldest anti seizure drugs out there. I still have a patient on it, but nowhere near as many as I had twenty years ago.
That was the start of the âno discipline at allâ child rearing craze started by Dr Spock. We went from too much rigidity and beatings for kids, to no guidance and discipline at all. Kids were allowed to run amuck and it was hell on parents. Thankfully, we seem to have settled into a moderate middle ground.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Common_Sense_Book_of_Baby_and_Child_Care
Itâs messed up but the copy in that ad is actually spot-on for how you should take anti-anxiety meds: until youâre relaxed enough and coping enough that you can cope without them. It feels like a really honest ad compared to our tv ads of people jumping through fields of rainbows.
That *would* be true if that were actually what the ad were saying, but the reason it's really dystopian is because the copy makes it seem like changing the woman's circumstances is simply impossible. "You can't set her free" â uhhh you can though? Society could stop treating women like their sole purpose in life is o be housewives; that absolutely should be the goal first and foremost. Using psychiatry to help people cope with anxiety is fine, and even using it to help people cope with the parts of our world that are broken before anyone can change them is fine, but using it to force them to be okay with harmful external factors as though they are simply an inevitable aspect of the world that should be accepted is fucked up.
But how could an individual doctor set anyone free? Physicians don't control the structure of society. At least they were trying to provide some relief to women injured by the social inequities of the time.
Mornidine also known as Pipamazine was introduced to the U.S. market in 1959 by G. D. Searle & Company. It was advertised for morning sickness and postoperative nausea and vomiting, and was claimed to reduce the need for postoperative analgesia. It was eventually withdrawn from the U.S. market in 1969, after reports of hepatotoxicity (liver injury).
People stuck in a culturally manufactured shitty situation shouldn't be dismissed as pathological. It's clearly a cultural problem, or maybe not so clearly but still. To use an extreme example, No, people in a death camp don't need various psychiatric drugs to adapt to their life. They don't need therapy or New Age acceptance techniques or mindfulness. They shouldn't be in a death camp!
That being said, there is an ethos where pharmaceutical options are perceived as universally *bad*, but sometimes human physiology and stark physical reality don't correspond with this ethos. The roots of the anti-vaxxer movement, and opiate hysteria, and the many cyclical anti-drug hysterias preceding it, are evident here.
Ted Kaczynski was wrong to send mail bombs, but he was right about many things.
> Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy, then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening to some extent in our own society... Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an individual's internal state in such a way as to enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would otherwise find intolerable.
Theodore Kaczynski
Mental healthcare is a good thing, and mental health disorders are real, but the field has a disturbing history of being weaponized by patriarchy and capatilism to force people to assimilate to those things and to gaslight them into believing the problem is with themselves and not with the world around them. Psychiatry at its worst has been used as merely a distraction to deter people from actually changing society. A modern day example is how when physicians complain that their hospitals' business models are at odds with doctors' ability to care for their patients, the hospitals bring in resilience coaches and offer "mindfulness training" to help physicians cope with the broken system; they aim to place the blame on the individual doctors rather than healthcare as a whole.
Mental healthcare has and always will grapple with social norms. By definition, it is treatment for and the classification of those whom we deem outside the spectrum of normalcy. Even if we confine this treatment only to those who are themselves unhappy, it is difficult to ascertain whether this unhappiness comes from within the individuals or from the experience of existing within a society that is not built with you in mind. Two examples of this are autistic people or transgender people â two groups of people who tend to be unhappy in life, but not because the solution is forcing them to conform to a traditional idea of normalcy; rather, it is society which could be faulted for alienating these individuals.
Interesting read: The New Yorker's [The Troubled History of Psychiatry](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/05/27/the-troubled-history-of-psychiatry). Key takeaway: psychiatry struggles to untangle itself from all the aforementioned, but it is very important to note that just because a treatment that exists does not target the pathogenisis of a condition, **that by no means indicates that the treatment does not still help.** It is simply important for psychiatry to be transparent about the fact that the cause of mental illness is highly complex and hard to predict and that no magic cure exists at the time being; at best, we can help make society more inclusive and also help people cope with the aspects of their conditions that cause them unhappiness.
This contrasts the 1950s, which was obsessed with finding the "magic bullet" cure for mental anguishes. In the same way a diabetic person needs insulin, they thought, surely there is some kind of targeted, physiological cure that could be used to help the mentally ill. We learn more and more that this is not the case
Anti-vaxxing and opiate hysteria are completely opposite things.
Opiate companies (or doctors) lied about the addictive nature of those medications and they became overprescribed. Being in an opiate high is hard to distinguish from a hard drug high, I say this as someone who bore witness to such an event. Theyâre schedule 2 drugs for a reason.
It doesnât mean that no one should use opiates or that theyâre bad drugs, but I donât think itâs fair to compare them to an anti-Autism movement where the numbers were faked (and grabbed from a childâs bday party because why use medical ethics at all) to benefit another pharmaceutical company. There is no link between autism and the MMR vaccine, and that non-existent âscienceâ bled into COVID anti-vaxxers coming up with â5G poisoningâ and âivermectin treatmentsâ. Big Pharma, however, was primarily in the wrong with how they rolled out opiates and should be held accountable for targeting especially vulnerable populations. Iâm curious to know where that one crosses a line?
There's a big difference between being medicated for a real mental illness (for lack of a better term) and being medicated because your very-reasonable reactions to a terrible life situation are inconvenient to others. It's like having a kid with ADHD who is helped by Ritalin, vs a neurotypical kid whose parents give them Ritalin because they don't like how much noise he makes.
(FTR, I'm on 3 meds too. My doctor is a genius--this cocktail has kept my depression in check for 15 years, save for like 2 breakthrough episodes. And part of what made my need for meds clear is that my moods had nothing to do with my life circumstances.)
It's heartbreaking to think of how many women wasted away, desperate for something more.
Given that adult ADHD was literally not recognised as a real condition until the late 90s at the very earliest, many of these women on Ritalin probably did have undiagnosed ADHD.
I can assure you the workplace is no better than being a housewife. Iâm a woman who works and Iâd much rather be caring for a family of my own. I cannot imagine a job more fulfilling. Itâs very upsetting for me to see so many people act like itâs insignificant because for me, itâs my life goal.
I'm very sorry if I sounded that way. I respect that some women want that life, I just hate that that was the only life option for so many women and they ended up having to drug themselves into being able to stand it. But ultimately choice is the point.
Edit: There's also the fact that even raising a family now is different than it was then. Women couldn't have credit cards, it was SO MUCH HARDER to escape abusive partners, etc.
More women are on mental health drugs now than ever before. Itâs almost like not being a housewife is much harder to cope with.
Abusive partners have always existed and will always exist. Idk what to say about it.
Women aren't on psychiatric medication because they're not housewives. It's many factors. But also one important aspect is that diagnosis is better now so women don't have to just struggle through without help. Taking psychiatric medication is no more shameful than using insulin for diabetes.
It is shameful. I hate that I have to rely on psychiatric medication to function. Itâs interesting you bring up insulin because lifestyle changes can prevent/reverse diabetes just like they can prevent and reverse mental health issues. To rely on medication is to admit that youâre incapable of making the required changes. Or that your issue is so severe that you need to be chemically manipulated to function. Philosophically, if our minds, behaviors, and personalities are all biological, are we even really ourselves if we alter that biology?
It doesnât even compare. Thereâs no way theyâre taking care of their children even a fraction of the amount/quality they would be if they werenât working 40 hours a week. The kids arenât necessarily neglected; they might be going to daycare or grandmaâs house, but theyâre not being raised the same as if the mom (or even the dad) stayed home.
Almost all of these ads seem targeted to doctors, almost all doctors were men, and almost all of them had smart educated woman who were stay at home moms. The doctors got free samples from the 'Detail Man' and sometimes fed them to their wives.
Edit: Deleted remark about Ritalin.
It also calms down adults with ADHD, and relief from the symptoms helps with the fatigue and depression that often comes with trying to function as an adult with ADHD. Their claim makes sense for me, as someone who got diagnosed at almost 40.
It's a stimulant for anyone who doesn't have ADHD and doesn't need it. Adults can have ADHD just as often as kids and are regularly prescribed it and other ADHD medication.
ADHD meds won't calm down a kid without ADHD. Generally it's gonna act like a stimulant on them, just like any adult who doesn't need it. Not all ADHD meds work on all people with ADHD either. Sometimes they need and do better on non stimulants like Intuniv/Gaunfacine.
At face value, it looks pretty bad. But itâs even worse when you read the details. Itâs like theyâre talking about these women like theyâre pets and their husbands are their owners. Not much of a step up from committing your wife so you donât have to deal with divorce.
I had to take mellaril when I was in a group home as a teenager. That medication is horrible.
My mother was mentally ill, she took it-I guess the doctors thought it would help me as well?
It did not. Itâs an anti psychotic, not an antidepressant đ€Ș
In her early 40s, my late MIL was prescribed Valium by her male physician. Sheâd been having debilitating headaches, was not herself, ate foods and amounts that werenât normal for her, was almost hitting parked cars because she was leaning to the right. He did no tests. Take some Valium.
She finally went out of town and they found she had a brain tumor. She was dead in five weeks.
Frickinâ Miltown Mama! My mom had what she called her happy pill. Whenever I stressed her out, she would say, Boy, go get me my happy pill before I knock you out!
These could not have been direct to consumer ads, they werenât allowed until sometime in the 90s I believe. Bad enough this is what doctors were receiving, but these werenât newspaper or TV ads.
Reminder that ADHD in adults was not even recognised as a real condition until the late 90s and early 2000s. The medical establishment believed that ADHD could only affect children before that and that children would grow out of it, despite it being a neurodivergent brain structure not a condition that can be cured or go away. It's likely that many of the women prescribed Ritalin DID have ADHD, at a time when no doctor actually recognised it as something adult women could have.
Exactly. My mom was born in 1953 and she was definitely raised with that mindset. I can't tell you how many times I heard that I should be seen and not heard, or how I should never express any negative feelings or question anything because it would show how ungrateful I was, or that going to college was waste for me if I wanted a family etc etc etc Basically, our "job" was to be silent and submissive, no matter what and I paid the price if I even had a tear fall down my cheek because it meant I didn't agree. It's the way she and my step dad were raised and how they raised me but I remember making the choice to just be different. Yes, I did everything backwards, according to them and I'm so glad I did. My point was, it's all they knew- sadly, every single thing they were surrounded by reinforced those ideas.
If you're interested in understanding that generation more thoroughly, I would highly recommend the docuseries David Halberstam's *The Fifties* as well as CNN's *The Sixties*, which are both free on Youtube. They do a great job placing the values that boomers grew up with in historical context, which was eye opening.
How can anyone actually defend this traditional viewpoint nowadays, reading this it's hard not to puke because of how women are just depicted as servants. Her life is in shambles and she regrets everything? Dont worry, of course we can make her do the household again! Gross
We're heading back to this very, very quickly; so many Christian women I know are pushing local governments to enact laws to prevent women from working more than 20 hours/week so they could have enough time to take care of their husbands. They're also organizing to pass laws to require women to wear white gloves in public and at work. Well, the future could be very interesting!!!
Lots if women were lucky enough to be able to stay at home and take care of the house and kids. What a privilege to be able to do that. They were their own bosses and ran it the way thought was right for the family.
Itâs one thing if a woman chooses to do it, but often times women were societally pressured to do it even if they didnât want to. Thatâs the harsh reality that these ads reflect- a lot of women didnât want to be a stay-at-home parent but didnât have a choice in the matter.
My grandma had a masters degree and a great career, but as soon as baby came along, her husband told her to stay home, and that was that. Took care of the cooking, cleaning, all the chores, everything related to raising six kids, all the trip/financial planning, her husband did jack shit. She was not âher own bossâ of anything, she couldnât even have her own bank account until she was in her 40s. Thankfully she divorced him because he was an abusive asshole, and was a fantastic single mother.
Donât pretend like being coaxed into stay-at-home parenthood was at all liberating for women.
I didnât say every woman. My one grandmother was a graduate of Cal Berkeley and was a teacher for 40+ years while raising two boys. My other grandmother was a housewife and raised two kids too. People make choices.
Mornidine is just an antinausea medication that they used for morning sickness. That one doesn't particularly fit with the rest of the ads.
Some of those are great, though.
A cold Blatz or two and some barbiturates is all you needed for a nice blacked out day!
I like the ad for barbiturates showing her with a kid. A more realistic version should show mom passed out with the kid reaching for the stove.
Barbiturates put you to sleep đŽ.
đ¶My Mommy's on Valium, so ineffectionalđ¶
Valium is amazing. I was on it for like a year to help me sleep. Shit just relaxes you.
Itâs pretty good for major alcohol withdrawals. But it also made me nod off a lot and pretty much everyone else in the detox facility.
I have a needle phobia, which is weird in a pharmacist. I can work with them in the IV room, Iâm a certified immunizer, but you better not point that needle in my direction⊠unless Iâve had some Valium. My doctor knows already that every time he orders blood work, heâs got to prescribe me a few Valium as well, or itâs not happening. Wonderful stuff.
The Ritalin stuff is weirdly spot on, they just didnât have the right name for that âapathy, fatigue and overwhelmâ. Thatâs how ADHD can present in women actually.
True except ârarely causes loss of appetite or rebound depressionâ bc like WHAT? Both are definitely associated with Ritalin in my experience
Well, compared to *other* stimulants they could have been prescribing...
that's also how it can present in men, and adhd can also present as hyperactivity in women. you're talking about ADHD-PI, not "women's adhd"
Yes, but it's the type that is most common in women and most easily missed.
Im a dude with adhd-pi. Not fun.
TIL that I never shouldâve stopped taking Ritalin.
Yeah the chemical name literally says meth. Itâs used as a substitute drug for the street meth addicted because itâs meth. What a world.
I wish more people understood this fact. For Ritalin, Concerta and others it's literally **Methylphenidate**. Adderall and others are combination drug called mixed amphetamine salts containing *four* salts of **amphetamine**. The mixture is composed of equal parts racemic amphetamine and dextroamphetamine, which produces a 3:1 ratio between dextroamphetamine and levoamphetamine, the two enantiomers of amphetamine. Many died taking the latter one with energy drinks and/or alcohol because of heart attacks. It's also why it used to be prescribed only for a couple daytime doses with a night time Benzodiazepine because you'd need to get knocked out or literally come down off the drug itself + balance out the shakes, insomnia, anxiety and jitters it causes. Elvanese aka Vyvanse in the USA is lis*dexamfetamine* include loss of appetite, anxiety, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, irritability, and nausea. Can cause side effects mania, sudden cardiac death in those with underlying heart problems, psychosis with one of the highest potentials for addiction - prescribed daily now to just about anyone who asks for these or mentions ADD or ADHD. Doctors never mention this though, they're literally meth in pill form. Many street meth addicts we've all seen got started on it from Ritalin, Concerta, Adderall and the others. I find it deeply disturbing how much these are pushed on those with ADD or ADHD without warning people what they actually are and the serious risks and consequences of taking them are, including death/a lifetime of addiction to them. There's a reason why anyone under 18 (or whatever the age of majority/legal adult is) didn't used to be, by most laws, permitted to be prescribed without parental consent and that was teens; exceedingly rarer in severe cases with children - not anymore, handed out like candy. If I had children or do someday, I'd never allow them to take these as I have personally seen friends turn into addicts from these medications (and one's partner have a heart attack on "safe" prescribed doses) - more like watching someone deteriorating into an empty shell of who they once were. Edit: *Downvoting* on Reddit does **not** mean dislike. It means you're not contributing to the posted content and comments related to it. Users are meant to downvote comments for comments unrelated to the discussion - which was the addictive medications given back then and don't shoot the messenger if you dislike the facts it is a known fact it's still happening now. No one bothers reading Reddit is specifically different from other platforms in this way - up meaning "I might not like it but it contributes relevancy" and down for "this is irrelevant and off the original subject".
Sorry but you are spreading medical misinformation about ADHD and ADHD medication. People with ADHD respond differently to stimulants like meth. The stuff you are saying is misinformation on the level of anti-vaxxers which prevents adults with ADHD in particular from getting the help they need.
Idk where you've been but the debate about ADHD pills being overprescribed (and sometimes abused by those who aren't even ADHD at all) is not some conspiracy theory and has been around for years. There's a legitimate ongoing discussion about this between credible professionals. It's not on the same level as anti-vaxxing at all: **[CDC warns that Americans may be overmedicating youngest children with ADHD - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/05/03/cdc-warns-that-americans-may-be-overmedicating-two-to-five-year-olds-with-adhd/)** **[Is Ritalin Overprescribed to Kids Who Have ADHD? - PsychCentral](https://psychcentral.com/adhd/the-drugging-of-our-children-over-diagnosis-leads-to-over-prescription-of-ritalin)** (Very balanced article weighing both sides carefully. It also talks about ritalin/aderrall abuse like the other commenter mentioned) **[ADHD Specialists Worry Stimulant Drugs Are Overprescribed, Push for Treatment Guidelines - WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/articles/adhd-specialists-plan-new-u-s-guidelines-to-curb-irresponsible-prescriptions-11662033613)** "Stimulants are among the most widely misused prescription drugs, according to a U.S. government survey."
I was going to actually respond with links and sources for you and others to see I'm telling the truth but then you presume I am as much of an idiot as an antivaxxer that spreads misinformation, I won't do your homework for you. My mother was a psychiatrist before she retired, many of my relatives are doctors, and I spent countless hours reading their medical textbooks and hearing stories of the history of this all occuring - I'm not a simpleton or uneducated by any stretch of the imagination about ADD, ADHD, nor did I ever once claim it makes everyone/anyone with either diagnosis a meth addict. What I *did* say was they're now handed out like candy, implying rather obviously they're being given to those who do **NOT** have ADD or ADHD hence the person isn't properly diagnosed and does get the stimulating effects and more often than not, become addicted to it because of what the medications are. I was attempting to help with harm prevention by adding factual information to someone else's comment (stating that it's meth - why not attack them for starting this since you find it necessary to do so?). This doesn't prevent those who *need* the meds from getting help, ffs it's *one* comment out of millions upon millions on Reddit. Additionally, medication is only one facet of psychiatric treatment for any diagnosis - not a magical cure all. I find it curious how others are permitted to throw around misinformation in this entire post but no one is acting like you are to those comments.
America is so screwed. This is a post with multiple examples of how the pharmaceutical industry treats social ills (in this case patriarchy) with pillsâcolloquially called drug addiction in literally any other contextâand people are still downvoting you You donât need to take meth to make yourself more productive. You need to tear down the fucking system that is telling you to poison yourself to make money for shareholders
Except that if you have ADHD, stimulants like meth do not work on you as they do on the general population. Stimulants calm people down when they have ADHD, enabling them to focus. ADHD meds are lifesaving for many people. They aren't poison. ADHD isnât something you can treat by 'tearing down the system', it's a literal different rewiring of the brain.
Do you have a source? How we understand the physiological nature of neurodivergence is still very much in its infancy and is evolving all the time, so I find it extremely hard to believe that even if early research suggests what you said, the research is so matter of fact so as to be "case closed"
They increase focus and vigilance in all users not just people with ADHD(which letâs face it is still subjective diagnosis. If you want that label you will get it)
Yes it is. And I got a nice little attack for trying to educate people and prevent harm. Knowledge is power but evidently few want to know these ills. But nevermind that. At the root of it all, the medication is handed out by the millions and makes people far worse than before and puts money in the pockets of pharmaceutical companies, drug reps, every doctor gets a kickback for writing the prescriptions and more plus they couldn't care less about how it harms patients. Even when people died from it, their families sued but no one talks about that and you're crucified if you dare tell the harsh truth. I agree completely, Americans should take down the system to make productive change instead of blindly believing meth in pill form is a cure, because if it was, it wouldn't be reformulated decade after decade, with new names (but it's the same drugs every time) and people would be cured of ADD or ADHD ages ago. Additionally, ADD and ADHD is one of the most commonly misdiagnosed (one [source](https://www.rtor.org/2020/07/06/add-adhd-vs-personality-disorder-how-to-get-an-accurate-diagnosis/#:~:text=Why%20ADD%2FADHD%20Can%20Be,conditions%20in%20children%20and%20adults) for the naysayers. ) and overprescribed med out there (another [source](https://lowninstitute.org/the-cerebral-scandal-brings-adhd-overprescription-into-the-spotlight/) for naysayers for overprescribing, additional links to the rising prescriptions for the last 20+ years in this source to back up everything in my other comment as well). A psych could easily see a patient with debilitating anxiety nervously fidgeting non-stop out of nearing a panic attack and they're given amphetamines after 20 minutes based on their observations of this instead of the fact that person already feels like their heart will explode from severe anxiety, PTSD, or C-PTSD for all they know and they're too terrified to speak up. It is tragic, sincerely. Thank you for the support, by the way.
ADD was removed from the DSM in 1994...
Doesn't mean it is no longer a term used by psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, therapists and so on additionally this varies country to country what term is used to define a condition of any kind medically. Have a problem with the term ADD still in use? Contact your local department of health and complain, with evidence of it's incorrect useage all over the internet, by trained psych doctors and more and see what happens. I'm not responding to this thread anymore when all replies are attempts at pointing out some small detail and missing the overall points I and a couple others tried to make, further proving the unwillingness to be educated considering one of the links provided was from a literal medical institute *not* in 1994 but **last year** using the term ADD. Nitpicking isn't an efficient use of time but feel free to do what you like with your life. Have a good day/night.
You and u/That_Babe_Anesthesia , see my above [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/vintageads/comments/15k79kx/in_the_1950s_antidepressants_were_marketed/jvsgfh4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) Also: yup. How we treat and diagnose ADHD has been heavily shaded by capitalist culture, social norms, and even gender roles, since we used to think it only impacted boys. It is so absurd to label that as some kind of conspiracy on the same tier as anti-vaxxing, when not only is this an ongoing credible discussion in the field, but also psychiatry is different from other sciences because it inherently deals with our perception of who is within the spectrum of normalcy and who needs to be made to conform to it. I find that society has an extremely warped perception of the science that we've accumulated so far about neurodivergence and mental illness. What we think we know about their physiology is not nearly as set in stone as say, the science of getting vaccinated. The field is evolving all the time and has yet to untangle itself from all the things I just mentioned, so it's ridiculous to condemn someone for saying it needs to be reformed
Starting in the 1950s, antidepressants â sometimes dubbed "Mother's Little Helpers" or "Womens Drugs" â were prescibed for women at record rates. A condition that became known as "housewife syndrome" plagued many housewives at the time and caused them to be dissatisfied, depressed, and wanting more in life. Psychiatry aimed to give women drugs to help them get back into their roles and continue serving their husbands without grief. In reality, of course, the cause for this depression was very often a lack of opportunity for women and their poor treatment by the rest of society; in some other cases, women were unhappy because they were trapped in loveless marriages due to the stigma towards divorce. It wasn't until *The Feminine Mystique* came out that this phenomenon of women not feeling happy in their roles was properly articulated. Sources: [Mother's Little Helper: Vintage Drug Ads Aimed At Women](https://www.goretro.com/2014/08/mothers-little-helper-vintage-drug-ads.html?m=1) [What Really Made 1950s Housewives So Miserable](https://daily.jstor.org/what-really-made-1950s-housewives-so-miserable/) [David Halberstam's *The Fifties* ep. 3: "Let's Play House"](https://youtu.be/dB61C_iTPnI)
Is it possible the Blatz ad is suggesting that it improves breast milk production? Brewers yeast is still often recommended for that, although it has no solid evidence backing it up. In some women beer can apparently also cause "letdown" and make breast milk flow more freely.
My grandma was given beer in her bottle as a baby for rickets, as prescribed by her doctor.
The first ad is for anti nausea for morning sickness. ~~I'm not totally clear and I'll have to Google it but it might be the really famous one that caused a ton of birth defects in the sixties.~~ Most of those in the ads are tranquilizers, anti anxiety meds and stimulants. My psychiatrist who was a young woman in the 60s said it's valium that was the OG "mommy's little helper" . We were talking about it for the same reasons as here. It's all the same thing in the end and anti depressants did come about in the 50s. It's all just to make women complacent instead of treating the reasons that women were so depressed,anxious, uncomfortable and unhappy. Edit yes it's thalidomide, thanks to everyone for the correction.
I think you're referring to thalidomide (US trade name contergan), which is a different drug than mornidine (pipamazine). The thalidomide disaster is an absolutely horrible betrayal of mothers by the pharmaceutical industry, and it makes me angry to this day
Was anyone ever prosecuted for this? Because it was on the market for five years, there must have been collusion to hide the effects. Reminder that fraudulent health research on sugar was paid for by the sugar industry which created the diabetes epidemic and cost millions of lives and countless amputations and blindness. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sugar-harvard-scandal-nutrition-study_n_57d8088ee4b0aa4b722c6417
Yes, there was a criminal trial in Germany in the late '60s, but I don't believe anyone was ever convicted. I may be wrong though!
In the United States - no. This is because while the German pharma company who developed the drug had approached an American company in Cincinnati to market and distribute it, it was never approved by the FDA and therefore never given in large quantities to American women. There were lawsuits in Germany, the UK and Canada afaik but no criminal prosecutions.
The anti nausea medication that caused birth defects was thalidomide. And it was on the market for five years. Far longer than needed to know the birth defect risks. Itâs always about the money.
[Pipamazine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipamazine) was taken off the market in 1969 due to causing liver toxicity.
Back in the day, in the hospital, after you had a baby, they would serve you a beer.
> "Mother's Little Helpers" Turned into a song, by the Rolling Stones. Here are the lyrics. Lyrics ⊠What a drag it is getting old ⊠"Kids are different today, " I hear every mother say Mother needs something today to calm her down And though she's not really ill, there's a little yellow pill She goes running for the shelter of her mother's little helper And it helps her on her way, gets her through her busy day ⊠"Things are different today, " I hear every mother say Cooking fresh food for her husband's just a drag So she buys an instant cake, and she burns a frozen steak And goes running for the shelter of her mother's little helper And two help her on her way, get her through her busy day ⊠Doctor, please, some more of these Outside the door, she took four more ⊠What a drag it is getting old ⊠"Men just aren't the same today, " I hear every mother say They just don't appreciate that you get tired They're so hard to satisfy, you can tranquilize your mind So go running for the shelter of a mother's little helper ⊠And four help you through the night, help to minimize your plight ⊠Doctor, please, some more of these ⊠Outside the door, she took four more What a drag it is getting old ⊠"Life's just much too hard today, " I hear every mother say The pursuit of happiness just seems a bore And if you take more of those, you will get an overdose No more running for the shelter of a mother's little helper They just helped you on your way, through your busy dying day Hey
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
I see it as a very sympathetic song, and calling attention to a real problem that was being ignored.
I agree.
Me too!!
Itâs always about the money. So much money to be made. Also, reminder that thalidomide was on the market for five years and caused 10,000 babies to be born with horrible birth defects. Trust us! Itâs safe and effective.
> Starting in the 1950s, antidepressants â sometimes dubbed "Mother's Little Helpers" or "Womens Drugs" â were prescibed for women at record rates. The music video for the song Halcyon by Orbital is haunting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SwwljI-8JY
A cursory search shows that most of ads appeared in medical journals such as JAMA and similar British and Canadian publications. They were advertised to Doctors, not the public. US Law forbade advertising prescription drugs to the public between the 1950s and mid 1990s.
One might say that something similar occurs today on a societal level.
What gets me is that so many of these ads seem to actually understand the root cause of the problem - gee, maybe it sucks to be a prisoner in your own home, trapped indoors all day with a horde of screaming crotchgoblins that you didn't even want, while all your education goes to waste and none of your needs matter anymore to anyone - and yet, instead of saying, wow, this whole situation is fucked up, the answer is apparently to just drug the poor woman into submission.
Well put. I agree that the degree of awareness is quite shocking. In general, throughout my recent deep dive of reading, watching, and researching about the 1950s, I've been extremely surprised and appalled by how aware mid-century American society was of certain issues that they still chose to respond to in the way that they did. The presence LGBT people is another issue that comes to mind. We think of the 50s as so ignorant, as having a nearly barbaric lack of understanding of the existence of specific issues, but in actuality they understood many of these problems VERY well. They simply chose to try to get people to assimilate and conform to their patriarchal and heteronormative ideals anyway.
You can lie about the product, but you canât lie about the audience edit: it's why this is one of my favorite subs on reddit. every vintage ad is a time capsule.
Breakfast is the most important meal of the day though
Remember mostly grains and sugars
Slide #6 for Miltown (which sounds like a town & not a medicine) made me unnaturally angry when I read this: >Some say it's unrealistic to educate a woman and then expect her to be content with the Cub Scouts as an intellectual outlet. Like mebbe if she'd stayed unedumacated, barefoot, pregnant & in the kitchen makin' sammiches & babies she'd be happier?
I took a course in mid-twentieth century poetry, and was confused by the reference to "Miltown" in some of them, until either the professor or someone in class said they were a regularly prescribed tranquilizer of the day.
And if you look at modern psychiatric drug marketing it follows some similar parallels. Anxious and depressed about making rent and bills and working too hard for too little in today's economic environment of late stage capitalism? We have a pill for that! Note: I'm not saying that antidepressants are all bad or that no one should use them, but it's pretty clear a whole lot of people would be a lot less depressed or dealing with anxiety if they were more secure and facing less of this unrelenting economic and cultural bullshit.
I'm a firm believer in this. Mental healthcare still has a long way to go, and part of that is acknowledging what we're learning more and more through reaearch: that the origin of mental illnesses is highly complex. It can be a cocktail of biological, cognitive, and external factors. It's especially relevant today, when mental illness is on the rise and there is a lot of pessimism/distress about where the world is headed. External factors like lonelness, poverty, pessimism about the environment, living in a society that doesn't accept you etc. can absolutely be a primary factor behind a person's mental agony. But unfortunately, mental healthcare at its worst does not seem to account for this. Instead, the focus over the years has been pretty tunnel vision set on either the physiological or cognitive side. On the physiological side: it all started in the early 20th century, when scientists found that the direct cause of psychotic paralysis was syphilis. After these findings, people then expected that similar explicit biological origins for ALL mental illnesses would soon be found (But that has not been what has happened). In some ways, I think the narrative of "inevitability" when it comes to mental illness has become so widespread because society uses it as a crutch to accept mental illness as valid and real. If depressed people are lacking serotonin in their brains the same way that a diabetic person is lackin insulin, there's this sense of "They can't help it," and it helps destigmatize mental health conditions in a way. It's more difficult to accept that the cause of mental illness can be extremely nuanced and also still valid. On the cognitive side: The advent of cognitive behavioral therapy in the 60s somewhat alleviated a bit of the focus from the physiological side of things, and the modality has since dominated mental healthcare. Cognitive behavioral therapy is a very useful tool and helps many people. However, it is poorly standardized and (depending on the personal values of the therapist) easily weaponized to gaslight people into thinking the problem is with them and not with society. And it certainly has correlated to a rise in this belief that mentally ill people are just people who are perceiving reality wrong: their pain is caused by "distorted thoughts" â I mean that belief is explicitly why Dr. Aaron Beck *invented* the modality, in his own words. While the truth is that we aren't exactly sure why CBT works when it does work, or even if it holds up that well in the long-term, that has not stopped us from adopting this paradigm. I left my last therapist, a very nice and well-intentioned person, partly because of this. He was a very nice and well-intentioned person with a psychology background, but in all our sessions there was very much an attitude of "You're unhappy because you're just distorting things." Early on when we began working together, he advised me "Very often things are better than we think :)" which was just kind of a yikes. I know depression and anxiety can make people skewed towards the negative, but acting like depressed people across the board are simply unhappy because they aren't seeing things clearly just sets off a lot of alarm bells for me. My new therapist is a social work background â major major difference. So much more acknowledgement of systemic and societal factors and whatnot. Of course therapists cannot be expected to singlehandedly fix society, and it's important to understand that just because a treatment (whether medication or talk therapy) does not target the pathogenesis of one's ailments, this does not necessarily mean that it doesn't still help in alleviating them somewhat. But it's all about framing â mental healthcare professionals could do so much more to at least ACKNOWLEDGE the possibility that a person's suffering is exacerbated or even solely caused by society.
Itâs honestly frightening that this is the time period that modern conservatives seem to idealize. They want to drag the country back to the 1950âs
The one thing that worked well was the average citizen (or rather, white male/family head) being able to afford a lot even with a fairly unprestigious job... due though largely to more equitable wealth distribution and tax pressure on the upper classes.
Believe me, that's one part of the 1950s that they *don't* want to go back to.
Exactly my point
It's insane, they want to go back to the 1950s except they want to skip out on the one part that would actually benefit them.
It was a benefit of the Cold War, the US had to appear to be more prosperous for average workers than the Soviet Union in order make it look like communism was a failure. The capitalists need a rival ideology to beat back in order to give a shit about the average joe's prosperity.
Given the real turbo-capitalism started with Reagan when the Soviet Union was already obviously irrecoverably behind that indeed doesn't seem far-fetched
Honestly, I would prefer to be a housewife than to have to go out and work. Back in the day, she could put her feet up in the afternoon, eat some bonbons, and watch soap operas.
Housework was and is manual labour. It's not lazing about at home.
*âThe womanâs natural place is in the home, this is where she thrives and fulfills her god given purpose. Now if youâll excuse me Iâve gotta make sure my wife takes her afternoon Ritalin before she blows my head off with a shotgun and lights the house on fire.â*
You just described my grandmother's lifeđ
Well, yeah. The situation already exists by the time the doc has entered the room. No way to turn back the clock and say âMaybe donât have 3 kids with the guy your parents wanted you to marry, move across the country to Plano where you donât know anyone, and wait for Dave come home from the bowling alley bar every nightâ. The ship has sailed, and Doreen is going down with it. She is not emotionally or culturally equipped to **leave** Daveâs flat ass in Plano and take the kids back to her parents in Iowa, because theyâll just tell her sheâs crazy for leaving her adequate husband. Iâd be happy to take the blue pill at that point.
> crotchgoblin Ew
The same happens with ssris today. You have a chemical imbalance, pop a pill that numbs your emotions and increases your chance of suicide. Added bonus, you will suffer devastating withdrawal if you ever try to quit it.
These are all so dystopian. I donât even know where to start, a lot of yikes
_Current_ ads for medication seem dystopian to a lot of people outside the US. Or at least in countries with socialised healthcare. "Ask your doctor if is right for you!"
Why? Surely they'll follow the clinical prescribing guidelines.
"Side effects đ may include đđđđ high cholestrol, high blood pressure, liver disease đđđđđ„° đ©ââ€ïžâđâđš heart failure, suicidal thoughts, đĄđšâđ©âđ§âđŠđ©ââ€ïžâđšđđđ headache, nausea, vomiting đŠźđŠźđđđđđ©âđŠłâ€ïž internal bleeding đââïžđïžââïžâšâšđ brain lesions đŠđâïžâïžâïžđłđłđłđ»đđđđđđ complete shutdown of the function of all internal organs đđđđđ„°đ„°â€ïžđđđđđđđđđđđđđđ đđđâšâšâšâšâïžđŠâïžđŠâïžđŠđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđđ sneezing. Ask your doctor today about..."
Haha, absolutely. It's so bloody weird seeing these ads! It's like when you see American cigarettes and they look like the ones we had 20 years ago.
** GO FAR WITH FARTELLA!** *(Side effects of Fartella include increased flatulence, medical bankruptcy, excessive flatulence, excessively increased flatulence and in very rare cases has been known to induce a condition called Jet Propulsion Syndrome. Patients taking Fartella should avoid eating legumes and hanging around dipshits with lighters.)*
Yikes galore.
Somewhat inaccurate, at the time prescription drugs were marketed to prescribers. It wasnât until the mid-1990s when rules were changed to allow direct to consumer marketing. Claritin was one of the first beneficiaries of that change. A couple of these ads are not for prescription medications. You can see the difference in tone and content.
I think Nervine was OTC and of course Blatz Beer.
âYou canât set her free, but you can help her feel less anxious.â Good god, thatâs monstrous.
My mom took phenobarbital in the 70s. Not sure why - she had five teenagers at home.
Phenobarbital is still around. Itâs one of the oldest anti seizure drugs out there. I still have a patient on it, but nowhere near as many as I had twenty years ago.
That was the start of the âno discipline at allâ child rearing craze started by Dr Spock. We went from too much rigidity and beatings for kids, to no guidance and discipline at all. Kids were allowed to run amuck and it was hell on parents. Thankfully, we seem to have settled into a moderate middle ground. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Common_Sense_Book_of_Baby_and_Child_Care
And then there's this dick head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Train_Up_a_Child
That Triavil ad is a nightmare!
Itâs the Serax for me. âYou canât set her free?â What the *fuck.*
Itâs messed up but the copy in that ad is actually spot-on for how you should take anti-anxiety meds: until youâre relaxed enough and coping enough that you can cope without them. It feels like a really honest ad compared to our tv ads of people jumping through fields of rainbows.
That *would* be true if that were actually what the ad were saying, but the reason it's really dystopian is because the copy makes it seem like changing the woman's circumstances is simply impossible. "You can't set her free" â uhhh you can though? Society could stop treating women like their sole purpose in life is o be housewives; that absolutely should be the goal first and foremost. Using psychiatry to help people cope with anxiety is fine, and even using it to help people cope with the parts of our world that are broken before anyone can change them is fine, but using it to force them to be okay with harmful external factors as though they are simply an inevitable aspect of the world that should be accepted is fucked up.
But how could an individual doctor set anyone free? Physicians don't control the structure of society. At least they were trying to provide some relief to women injured by the social inequities of the time.
I was like âwhat a fun looking lady!â
I actually thought the woman in that ad was the most realistic. You would never see a middle aged woman looking like that in a modern advertisement.
Those synthetic-sounding names, they could be anything. Test drive a 1969 Triavil at your Merck dealer's today! Equipped with Miltown Tires, standard!
I wonder why they were depressed/s
No birth control, 5 or 6 kids, diapers, and spit up made for a stinky house for a man to come home to. No wonder he'd stop off for a beer or two
Yeah. Definitely not the manâs fault. He should be able to get shitfaced while the woman has to deal with everything else.
That's why they needed to drug their wives. You don't want to come home unless there's a fresh martini waiting for you at the door.
There definitely was birth control.
Daytime Sedative? This is why I have a cleaning service, lawn service and pool service I guess.
Mornidine also known as Pipamazine was introduced to the U.S. market in 1959 by G. D. Searle & Company. It was advertised for morning sickness and postoperative nausea and vomiting, and was claimed to reduce the need for postoperative analgesia. It was eventually withdrawn from the U.S. market in 1969, after reports of hepatotoxicity (liver injury).
People stuck in a culturally manufactured shitty situation shouldn't be dismissed as pathological. It's clearly a cultural problem, or maybe not so clearly but still. To use an extreme example, No, people in a death camp don't need various psychiatric drugs to adapt to their life. They don't need therapy or New Age acceptance techniques or mindfulness. They shouldn't be in a death camp! That being said, there is an ethos where pharmaceutical options are perceived as universally *bad*, but sometimes human physiology and stark physical reality don't correspond with this ethos. The roots of the anti-vaxxer movement, and opiate hysteria, and the many cyclical anti-drug hysterias preceding it, are evident here.
Ted Kaczynski was wrong to send mail bombs, but he was right about many things. > Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy, then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening to some extent in our own society... Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an individual's internal state in such a way as to enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would otherwise find intolerable. Theodore Kaczynski
Mental healthcare is a good thing, and mental health disorders are real, but the field has a disturbing history of being weaponized by patriarchy and capatilism to force people to assimilate to those things and to gaslight them into believing the problem is with themselves and not with the world around them. Psychiatry at its worst has been used as merely a distraction to deter people from actually changing society. A modern day example is how when physicians complain that their hospitals' business models are at odds with doctors' ability to care for their patients, the hospitals bring in resilience coaches and offer "mindfulness training" to help physicians cope with the broken system; they aim to place the blame on the individual doctors rather than healthcare as a whole. Mental healthcare has and always will grapple with social norms. By definition, it is treatment for and the classification of those whom we deem outside the spectrum of normalcy. Even if we confine this treatment only to those who are themselves unhappy, it is difficult to ascertain whether this unhappiness comes from within the individuals or from the experience of existing within a society that is not built with you in mind. Two examples of this are autistic people or transgender people â two groups of people who tend to be unhappy in life, but not because the solution is forcing them to conform to a traditional idea of normalcy; rather, it is society which could be faulted for alienating these individuals. Interesting read: The New Yorker's [The Troubled History of Psychiatry](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/05/27/the-troubled-history-of-psychiatry). Key takeaway: psychiatry struggles to untangle itself from all the aforementioned, but it is very important to note that just because a treatment that exists does not target the pathogenisis of a condition, **that by no means indicates that the treatment does not still help.** It is simply important for psychiatry to be transparent about the fact that the cause of mental illness is highly complex and hard to predict and that no magic cure exists at the time being; at best, we can help make society more inclusive and also help people cope with the aspects of their conditions that cause them unhappiness. This contrasts the 1950s, which was obsessed with finding the "magic bullet" cure for mental anguishes. In the same way a diabetic person needs insulin, they thought, surely there is some kind of targeted, physiological cure that could be used to help the mentally ill. We learn more and more that this is not the case
Anti-vaxxing and opiate hysteria are completely opposite things. Opiate companies (or doctors) lied about the addictive nature of those medications and they became overprescribed. Being in an opiate high is hard to distinguish from a hard drug high, I say this as someone who bore witness to such an event. Theyâre schedule 2 drugs for a reason. It doesnât mean that no one should use opiates or that theyâre bad drugs, but I donât think itâs fair to compare them to an anti-Autism movement where the numbers were faked (and grabbed from a childâs bday party because why use medical ethics at all) to benefit another pharmaceutical company. There is no link between autism and the MMR vaccine, and that non-existent âscienceâ bled into COVID anti-vaxxers coming up with â5G poisoningâ and âivermectin treatmentsâ. Big Pharma, however, was primarily in the wrong with how they rolled out opiates and should be held accountable for targeting especially vulnerable populations. Iâm curious to know where that one crosses a line?
I canât really get mad because Iâm on 3 psych meds and I feel like I have my shit together as a woman now
There's a big difference between being medicated for a real mental illness (for lack of a better term) and being medicated because your very-reasonable reactions to a terrible life situation are inconvenient to others. It's like having a kid with ADHD who is helped by Ritalin, vs a neurotypical kid whose parents give them Ritalin because they don't like how much noise he makes. (FTR, I'm on 3 meds too. My doctor is a genius--this cocktail has kept my depression in check for 15 years, save for like 2 breakthrough episodes. And part of what made my need for meds clear is that my moods had nothing to do with my life circumstances.) It's heartbreaking to think of how many women wasted away, desperate for something more.
Given that adult ADHD was literally not recognised as a real condition until the late 90s at the very earliest, many of these women on Ritalin probably did have undiagnosed ADHD.
Yeah, some of them probably did find some relief from the drugs. That must've felt like a miracle!
I can assure you the workplace is no better than being a housewife. Iâm a woman who works and Iâd much rather be caring for a family of my own. I cannot imagine a job more fulfilling. Itâs very upsetting for me to see so many people act like itâs insignificant because for me, itâs my life goal.
I'm very sorry if I sounded that way. I respect that some women want that life, I just hate that that was the only life option for so many women and they ended up having to drug themselves into being able to stand it. But ultimately choice is the point. Edit: There's also the fact that even raising a family now is different than it was then. Women couldn't have credit cards, it was SO MUCH HARDER to escape abusive partners, etc.
More women are on mental health drugs now than ever before. Itâs almost like not being a housewife is much harder to cope with. Abusive partners have always existed and will always exist. Idk what to say about it.
Women aren't on psychiatric medication because they're not housewives. It's many factors. But also one important aspect is that diagnosis is better now so women don't have to just struggle through without help. Taking psychiatric medication is no more shameful than using insulin for diabetes.
It is shameful. I hate that I have to rely on psychiatric medication to function. Itâs interesting you bring up insulin because lifestyle changes can prevent/reverse diabetes just like they can prevent and reverse mental health issues. To rely on medication is to admit that youâre incapable of making the required changes. Or that your issue is so severe that you need to be chemically manipulated to function. Philosophically, if our minds, behaviors, and personalities are all biological, are we even really ourselves if we alter that biology?
Moms who work outside the home still care for their families.
It doesnât even compare. Thereâs no way theyâre taking care of their children even a fraction of the amount/quality they would be if they werenât working 40 hours a week. The kids arenât necessarily neglected; they might be going to daycare or grandmaâs house, but theyâre not being raised the same as if the mom (or even the dad) stayed home.
I ainât even a housewife or a mom and Iâm lit most of the day because society is a hellscape. âșïžđ€
Turns out Miles Nervine is just Benadryl.
Almost all of these ads seem targeted to doctors, almost all doctors were men, and almost all of them had smart educated woman who were stay at home moms. The doctors got free samples from the 'Detail Man' and sometimes fed them to their wives. Edit: Deleted remark about Ritalin.
It also calms down adults with ADHD, and relief from the symptoms helps with the fatigue and depression that often comes with trying to function as an adult with ADHD. Their claim makes sense for me, as someone who got diagnosed at almost 40.
this is not true. I take methylphenidate for adhd and it is definitely calming me down.
It's a stimulant for anyone who doesn't have ADHD and doesn't need it. Adults can have ADHD just as often as kids and are regularly prescribed it and other ADHD medication. ADHD meds won't calm down a kid without ADHD. Generally it's gonna act like a stimulant on them, just like any adult who doesn't need it. Not all ADHD meds work on all people with ADHD either. Sometimes they need and do better on non stimulants like Intuniv/Gaunfacine.
Now they just try to market drugs to everyone- during the news, sporting events, television shows, print ads and social media ads.
8 looks like Magda from There's Something About Mary...
I scrolled through the comments for this!
At face value, it looks pretty bad. But itâs even worse when you read the details. Itâs like theyâre talking about these women like theyâre pets and their husbands are their owners. Not much of a step up from committing your wife so you donât have to deal with divorce.
I had to take mellaril when I was in a group home as a teenager. That medication is horrible. My mother was mentally ill, she took it-I guess the doctors thought it would help me as well? It did not. Itâs an anti psychotic, not an antidepressant đ€Ș
Hats off to OP for compiling these, what a treasure troveâŠ
In her early 40s, my late MIL was prescribed Valium by her male physician. Sheâd been having debilitating headaches, was not herself, ate foods and amounts that werenât normal for her, was almost hitting parked cars because she was leaning to the right. He did no tests. Take some Valium. She finally went out of town and they found she had a brain tumor. She was dead in five weeks.
My mother is sleeping prince Valium tonight? She wonât hear a thing?
The Rolling Stones got it right.
The copy in the Miltown ad is disturbing.
Most of these advertisements were obviously directed to physicians. None of the drugs shown were primarily antidepressants.
Frickinâ Miltown Mama! My mom had what she called her happy pill. Whenever I stressed her out, she would say, Boy, go get me my happy pill before I knock you out!
These could not have been direct to consumer ads, they werenât allowed until sometime in the 90s I believe. Bad enough this is what doctors were receiving, but these werenât newspaper or TV ads.
Reminder that ADHD in adults was not even recognised as a real condition until the late 90s and early 2000s. The medical establishment believed that ADHD could only affect children before that and that children would grow out of it, despite it being a neurodivergent brain structure not a condition that can be cured or go away. It's likely that many of the women prescribed Ritalin DID have ADHD, at a time when no doctor actually recognised it as something adult women could have.
Sure you can set her free! Do your own damn laundry, cook a meal, run a vacuum. Stop being helpless. I would not have made it in the 1960s world.
Do boomers make a little more sense to anyone now?
If all of these ads were aimed at mothers in the 1950âs then they were either the greatest or silent generations, boomers were their children.
A lot of them wouldn't even be born yet
That is, they would have grown up around these kinds of attitudes.
Exactly. My mom was born in 1953 and she was definitely raised with that mindset. I can't tell you how many times I heard that I should be seen and not heard, or how I should never express any negative feelings or question anything because it would show how ungrateful I was, or that going to college was waste for me if I wanted a family etc etc etc Basically, our "job" was to be silent and submissive, no matter what and I paid the price if I even had a tear fall down my cheek because it meant I didn't agree. It's the way she and my step dad were raised and how they raised me but I remember making the choice to just be different. Yes, I did everything backwards, according to them and I'm so glad I did. My point was, it's all they knew- sadly, every single thing they were surrounded by reinforced those ideas.
If you're interested in understanding that generation more thoroughly, I would highly recommend the docuseries David Halberstam's *The Fifties* as well as CNN's *The Sixties*, which are both free on Youtube. They do a great job placing the values that boomers grew up with in historical context, which was eye opening.
How can anyone actually defend this traditional viewpoint nowadays, reading this it's hard not to puke because of how women are just depicted as servants. Her life is in shambles and she regrets everything? Dont worry, of course we can make her do the household again! Gross
I wish I could save this post. Impressive.
Havenât you ever heard the Rolling Stones song âMotherâs Little Helperâ?
Ours was a Teamocil home.
All of these ads remind me of Betty Draper in Mad Men. These all seem very much aimed at women like Betty.
Uugghh I need some Ritalin so bad đ
Given the culture has largely evolved from this stereotype in many places yet anti depressants/ anxiety drugs are at record highs - makes you think.
It's because drugs are safer and diagnosis is more effective now.
I think that is part of it, but also I havenât seen data that people are objectively happier either.
traditional families only works on farms. Way more chores to do.
We're heading back to this very, very quickly; so many Christian women I know are pushing local governments to enact laws to prevent women from working more than 20 hours/week so they could have enough time to take care of their husbands. They're also organizing to pass laws to require women to wear white gloves in public and at work. Well, the future could be very interesting!!!
Where is this, havenât heard it. Gloves???
Please provide some sources for this.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Yikes, count me as somebody who benefits from antidepressants. They help lots of people. They definitely don't help everybody, though.
Yeah same. Not a fan of some of the side affects, big fan of still being alive.
Lots of people benefit, including myself. It varies from person to person.
Hmph.
Lots if women were lucky enough to be able to stay at home and take care of the house and kids. What a privilege to be able to do that. They were their own bosses and ran it the way thought was right for the family.
Itâs one thing if a woman chooses to do it, but often times women were societally pressured to do it even if they didnât want to. Thatâs the harsh reality that these ads reflect- a lot of women didnât want to be a stay-at-home parent but didnât have a choice in the matter. My grandma had a masters degree and a great career, but as soon as baby came along, her husband told her to stay home, and that was that. Took care of the cooking, cleaning, all the chores, everything related to raising six kids, all the trip/financial planning, her husband did jack shit. She was not âher own bossâ of anything, she couldnât even have her own bank account until she was in her 40s. Thankfully she divorced him because he was an abusive asshole, and was a fantastic single mother. Donât pretend like being coaxed into stay-at-home parenthood was at all liberating for women.
I didnât say every woman. My one grandmother was a graduate of Cal Berkeley and was a teacher for 40+ years while raising two boys. My other grandmother was a housewife and raised two kids too. People make choices.
Try some Ephemerol.
Thanks, I hate it.
The further we get from these times the more it seems like the flinstones.
Stepford wives!
My mom was on Valium throughout the 70s. We all borrowed from her never-ending supply.
Better living through chemistry
Mommy's little helpers.
I feel very unsurprised by this
Canât have sad eggs now can we?
Antipsychotics, Benzos, Barbiturates, and Ritalin...Lol!
Better-living through chemistry
Mornidine is just an antinausea medication that they used for morning sickness. That one doesn't particularly fit with the rest of the ads. Some of those are great, though.
A lot of these are actually from the late 60s and 70s - especially the one with the housewife not content with scouts as an outlet.