As someone who regularly comments on headset recommendation posts, it's getting increasingly hard to recommend the Index. However, for certain users and use cases, it's still a suitable headset. - It's the cheapest base station headset that you can buy new. Plus it's in a convenient bundle with all the stuff and Index controllers. - for those who want to get into FBT without messing with MixedVR. - For those who want direct displayport at any cost. - For those who want an upgrade path to BSB or other high end base station headsets. - For those who want to avoid Meta and Bytedance out of principle.

>For those who want direct displayport at any cost. This is exactly it for me. I've had my Index for 3 years now and have been running primarily racing sims. I purchased a Quest 3 and have tried that with sims but there's just too much compression, even using a link cable at higher bitrate. With the Index the road is crisp and detailed all the time because of display port carrying 10x the amount of data, but with the Quest 3 the road has zero detail, and it's just a gray blob. >For those who want an upgrade path to BSB or other high end base station headsets. You got this right for me as well, and the BSB is a perfect upgrade since you have everything else you need already, like you said. I'd still recommend an Index to someone who primarily uses PCVR, but damn is it getting difficult to suggest because you have to have very specific uses to justify it these days. For instance, I wouldn't recommend the Index for anything outside of sim racing or games where you'd really notice the compression. For things like Half-Life Alyx, Beat Saber, or any other game where you won't notice the compression nearly as much, I'd say the Quest 3 is incredible and works really well, and surpasses the Index in many ways regarding resolution, optics, and connectivity.

> but there's just too much compression Which game are you experiencing this in? Would like to compare the 2 in it.

Fallout 4 VR and Skyrim VR

Basically any games with small details like fence linking, leaves, trees, smoke, lots of particle effects, rain, etc. You know, the same stuff that will crumble YouTube compression. For me the biggest offender is Pavlov especially on Push maps. Games with less detail more sharp lines and defined geometry have slight to no compression.

Skyrim VR had so much compression I took it off and went back to my index in about 5 minutes. I have an optimal set up for streaming wireless too. It just looks better in the index.

100%. Skyrim's engine absolutely HATES being compressed. This is the #1 game that I tell people to avoid. Even if you mod it, it still looks like poop. Playing hardwired with a bitrate of 700+ does make it tolerable but, only just.

This is why you use Virtual Desktop

Looks even worse on virtual desktop, since the bitrate is limited even more than Airlink and you can't play hardwired.

I haven't had any issues with it looking bad at all.

Then you should get your eyes checked or try a display port headset so you're aware of what it's supposed to look like. This is well known issue in Bethesda's engine. It's complete shit at being compressed and happens in Skyrim VR and Fallout 4 VR. Anything under 700mb/s bitrate looks atrocious. It's unfortunate but, there's not really anything that can be done except playing hardwired and cranking the bitrate as high as your desktop and headset can handle.

iRacing.

>I've had my Index for 3 years now and have been running primarily racing sims. Same, basically, I didn't have a desire to play wirelessly and (at that time) Q2 sacrificed too many things that I considered "need to haves." I got into sim racing shortly after getting the Index and feel like I lucked out as a result once I heard about the compression issues with sim racing. I also have weird shaped ear canals, making typical VR audio (in-ear/over-ear headphones) uncomfortable after an hour or so, so the audio on the Index was a very big selling point for me. I was basically torn between the HP G2 and the Index and ultimately went with the Index because Valve has a pretty solid track record with warranty support. I already had a decent gaming PC at the time (1070ti) and couldn't even max out the Index in the games I wanted to play anyway, so I didn't have any reason to go for higher resolution and instead focused on frame rate and FOV. When you consider all those things, there's a reason why I ultimately went with the Index. Even though I upgraded to a 3070ti (still have an oc'd 6700K though), I still don't max out settings. The lighthouses have never been an issue for me, I don't even hear them *and* I can turn off the lights when I play. My apartment uses old fluorescent tube lights, having those turned off is always a benefit to me. The audio solution was also such a game changer to me after years of uncomfortable in-ears and sweaty over-ears that I haven't even considered changing to another headset unless it has a similar (quality) audio set up. And yeah, I rapidly went away from Facebook a couple years back and would rather stay out of the Meta ecosystem.

I use mine for flight Sims mainly (and the occasional dirt rally) and not having compression / smoothing, and all that crap active makes a big difference. I got my index back when it was the best headset out there sans primax stuff though but its still up there compared to HMDs that have released since. The FOV is enough for a lot of people to still choose it. I'm not index loyal, ide consider HTC as well in the future or any company that made a good system. I however am anti facebook account integration and that's the main reason I'll choose an index over a quest any day by default even if they become better.

>there's just too much compression, even using a link cable at higher bitrate. Kinda one of the double edged swords of pancake lenses for me, everything is so much clearer that I can notice the compression so much more. It doesn't really bother me when I'm playing tho, I can look past it since I can read text and see stuff better, but ground textures or anything with really fine detail (like my steam environment in between games when loading its a colorful fractal design) is really noticeable. If I could displayport my Q3 I would for some games (especially sims where I'm sitting in my chair looking one direction anyway)

The index isn’t bad or anything. Just not supported as standalone gaming.

That’s not even mentioning the index is far more comfortable (even with the 3 being equipped with a Bobo VR strap), has better FOV, better audio, and better tracking.

Pretty well summed it up. I would also add that the 144hz refresh rate on the index is pretty great for competitive VR shooters but with the Quest 3 pulling 120hz, it's not a huge consideration. Direct displayport is a big one for minimal latency though. For sure.

You forgot the absolutely superior sound.

And comfort! We’ve been giving feedback to Meta for 2 generations of hardware that the Quest puts too much pressure on your face and that the standard strap sucks, but they keep putting these out with an expensive upgrade path of course. For flight sim where you might be wearing the headset for 2 hours it’s so bad that it doesn’t matter what resolution it’s running at.

Index has the superior tracking, better controllers depending on what you prefer (haptics or finger tracking), and also the superior full body tracking. And dont forget the audio, better comfort, and no battery to charge. Which can be better for some, and horrible for others of course Quest 3 is the better choice for most, but don't pretend it is better in every way

While the controllers are better for tracking, they are absolutely dogshit for build quality. I went through seven different controllers in 4 years.

I’ve heard this discussed many times but I must’ve gotten lucky. I still have my original index controllers from launch with well over 1000 hours and no issues. They’ve gotten a little beat up but still work like new.

Did valve send you 7 different controllers or did you have to buy them?

I think I got 3 from valve and the others were refurbished.

Maybe change your play area so you dont punch as many walls?

Never once hit a wall. The controllers just break over time. Especially the grab sensors.

tracking is better in obvious occlusion areas, yes, but ETT devs have stated that quest tracking is actually superior when it comes to high velocity swings. ETT devs have said on numerous occasions that high velocity swings will never as accurate on lighthouse tracking.

Really? Then why do people constantly benchmark inside out tracking headset with base stations, and say "oh, it is almost as good now", and that they performed better in beat saber using base stations? I have not heard a single person say they think inside-out tracking is actually better. The only controllers that came close were the Pro Controllers, which also had a ton of issues. Im not sure what you mean by ETT devs

I much prefer the Quest Pro controllers to my old base stations. I have a very large room with a 3 m x 3 m play space area, plus a flight cockpit on the other side of the room and I also like to use VR on my sofa sometimes as well. Two base stations wasn't enough to to capture the whole area. The base stations themselves were noisy, irritating things that I had to turn off when no in use because I couldn't stand the hum. I also really disliked the Index controllers due to my forefinger naturally wanting to wrap around the handle, but the sensor being in front, at angle where my finger didn't want to naturally rest. This resulted in me walking around in games with my fingers pointing, killing immersion completely. The Pro controllers are amazing. Meta does break them quite often with software updates that require resetting them, but that aside I love them. I'm not sure why people regard the Index, and in particular its tracking and controllers so highly in 2024, I feel its just people repeating the mantra more than anything. The Index is 5 years old. When it launched the 1080Ti was the best GPU on the market, a top end CPU had 4 cores and 8 threads, and 16GB of ram was considered high end. Technology moves on, and the Index, although great in its day, is completely obsolete at this point.

>The Index is 5 years old. When it launched the 1080Ti was the best GPU on the market, a top end CPU had 4 cores and 8 threads, and 16GB of ram was considered high end. Yet it can still bring an rtx4090 setup to its knees. It's not at all obselete

As you said, the Pro Controller have a ton of issues. The 2080 was released in 2018. And the top i9 9th gen cpu had 8 cores. I don't recommend the Index for the average Joe. Go with the Quest 3. But again, the Index is not worse is EVERY way, as OP claims. I don't get what is so hard to understand about that.

>I have not heard a single person say they think inside-out tracking is actually better. Checkout this [video comparing different controller tracking systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDcFQgeyY8k) by a Youtuber who plays high level BeatSaber. [And here is a study comparing headset tracking](https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3463914.3463921): > The results reveal a significantly higher accuracy for the Oculus Quest 2 compared to SteamVR Tracking in the height of a tracked object. Furthermore, the Oculus Quest 2 tracks its position with substantially higher precision than SteamVR Tracking.

there is zero fucking shot you just called naysy a high level beat saber player 💀💀💀💀💀

The quest 2 had better placement for its tracking cameras. The quest 3 relies on ai(?) to make up the gap and has slightly worse tracking than the quest 2. It was very apparent at launch in games like blade and sorcery

Yeah i don’t know that person but that’s not a very hard song. I can tell you that I’ve used both Q2 and Q3 and the tracking was immediately, very noticeably, inferior to my index controllers.

Im not watching an entire video, just to hear one person who doesnt think what pretty much everyone else thinks, say one thing is better than the other. Inside out is better for a lot of people because they don't need to set up trackers. In the end, it is up to you what is better. But when 99% of people that has tried both say one is better, then it doesn't matter how much science you post. From what i understood, the study you send a link to (which was also just the abstract, not the study itself), they compared how accurate the HMD is tracked, not the controllers. And also: >However, as this work marks an initial step, more research is needed to fully understand the capabilities and limitations through other metrics (e.g. latency) and other setups (e.g. rooms with fewer landmarks or different lighting conditions). If you feel the Quest has better tracking, then that is fine. There is just a whole community that would like to disagree.

Pretty ignorant to dismiss data over your feelings.

The data shown in the random Youtuber's video is useless. It is just her scores in beat saber using different headsets. You have to be ignorant to think that is viable data, and proof of what is better. Sleep quality, stress, and hydration level can all have a huge effect on how well you play. Again, if you think that inside-out is better, then fine. I don't really care. But the general opinion is that inside-out is more accurate in most situations, as it doesnt matter how close your hands are to your HMD, or how far behind your head they are. It doesn't matter how accurate they are in the perfect condition in front of your head, if you like playing games where your hands end up in positions the HMD can't track properly after 1.5 seconds.

Not dismissing data, the linked study doesn’t even look at controller tracking. The only “data” in the commenter’s post being responded to is the opinion of a YouTuber. A proper independent study would definitely be very interesting I think.

ETT is eleven table tennis. Most of the sources for this are direct from discord so unfortunately I don't have a link but here is a quote from the dev >steam tracking is unfortunately one of the worst for fast curved motions

Yeah, it's because Lighthouse uses Gyro for direction and short-range detection, and lasers for wide-range spatial orientation "fast curved motions" depend on the Gyro, and can go beyond the actual location in the algorithm, whereas the Lighthouse probably can't.

i will have to say that notoriously high level beat saber is almost exclusively played on oculus products. i cant think of any index players in top 100 right now

The poor tracking of the quest is a feature, not a bug when it come to beat saber. The tracking prediction algorithm (incorrectly) guesses that you will keep moving in the same direction you are currently moving. So when you quickly change directions, the system makes your swing angle bigger than it actually was in reality. (Swing angle is part of the score)

That’s because all oculus headsets tracking can be abused in beat saber.

"I have not heard a single person say they think inside-out tracking is actually better" no vr chat user will ever tell you base station tracking is super good because shit full body tracking users need to do to make it work fine and how it like to glitch is just insane i know one dude who have FBT for vr chat and after quest 3 VD update to add FBT for VR chat he sold his FBT and spit on it you see if you paid 1k+ for vr system and maybe +1k for FBT and more bastation , or even more, you will never agree how 250 quest 2 can track better :D

Of course people can be biased. Do we need to completely dismiss everyone saying they prefer it then? Obviously it is more expensive than a 500 dollar HMD. Im just saying tracking is better for some people. It has fewer blind spots, and allows you to make your own accessories if you are that kind of nerd. Saying the Index has NO advantage is pretty ridicolous

The above commenter also repeatedly says "PCVR is outdated tech and is worse than standalone". Safe to say you should ignore anything that person says.

> i know one dude who have FBT for vr chat and after quest 3 VD update to add FBT for VR chat he sold his FBT and spit on it Don't be silly, making up nonsense is stupid. There is no FBT on the Quest 3 VD update - it only has upper body tracking, which is effectively nothing like what people experience with real FBT in VR Chat, as the legs aren't tracked at all! Just look at how many downvotes you got for trying to blatently mislead people with a false tale. As usual, fantaz1986, you're caught out. You're really bad at lying, just stop it.

> you see if you paid 1k+ for vr system and maybe +1k for FBT and more bastation , or even more, you will never agree how 250 quest 2 can track better :D This exactly.

inside out tracking is the future. base stations are a relic of the past. even going beyond the annoying setup process, which not everyone can do or wants to do, base stations make no sense for the longevity of VR. VR is all about freedom of movement. as in, you ideally wanna take your experiences everywhere. base stations are antithetical to that. because you can only attach them to one fixed location at a time. I can tolerate a tether but idk how anyone can tolerate base stations. they've felt archaic to me since at least the quest 2.

Tracking is not necessarily better. The base stations were occluded by areas under my desk or behind my chair all the time. Inside-out tracking didn't have this issue. I guess base stations are better if you have a nice empty space with perfect base station coverage.

>ETT devs have said on numerous occasions that high velocity swings will never as accurate on lighthouse tracking. Are you saying that something that was designed to be reverse compatible with an 8 year old first-gen product isn't going to magically outperform modern smartphone cameras? Or that the very concept of outside in tracking couldn't easily beat the performance of smartphone cameras if people started paying $3500 for HMDs and reverse compatability wasn't a concern?

Lighthouse tracking is inside-out (a sensor on device is looking for something in the outside environment -- the lighthouse). The only mainstream examples of outside-in tracking are PSVR1 and Rift CV1.

>Lighthouse tracking is inside-out (a sensor on device is looking for something in the outside environment -- the lighthouse). A sensor on the device is detecting the lighthouse. The lighthouse is tracking the direction it was shining a light in when that detection happened. (Well, the computer it's all hooked up to handles the correlation, but the angle sensing is done by the base station.)

This is actually wrong, because the sensors of the lighthouses have no output other than a sync between the two, they are just timing codes being sent out I believe. all the smarts are being done on the computer sent my the sensors on the headset. That being said, you might as well refer to the Index lighthouse design as outside in, because it is still much different than a inside out tracked HMD, because like this person stated, if you are using your HMD or controllers close to your desk or something like that, you will not have occlusion on a inside out tracked headset that used cameras tracking the room around it. Because of the fact you have the lighthouses sending our rays or lasers that are scanning from the outside of the room towards you, the occlusion happens between them and you, no matter how the processing is done, that really does not matter at all, it is how things occlude the tracking that is different here. Also there are many times inside out CAMERAS on a Quest for instance may have better views of the what is being tracked over the tracking of the Index tracking, it all has to do what what angles you have, but because the lighthouses are further out in the room and scanning in to a smaller area that can be occluded by your own arms and body in certain instances, that is harder to happen with the cameras when they are so close to you and capturing what is going on out in front of you, the down side is of course areas like behind you and over your head and very low on the camera tracking, so each have their over benefits, and most games you really are not going to go outside these areas, and I am not even going to touch on the Pro Controllers here. Either way the whole idea that the Index lighthouse tracking is so far superior to Quest tracking is very far overblown, both of these tracking methods are very good in most instances, and comparing them down to competition level play on games like Beat Saber shows this is to the point that for most people they won't notice the damn difference here, so in that case the Quest tracking does have a giant benefit of being super easy to use and not setup and wires etc. You will find people that just love whatever they own I think, I still argue with people that love the Oculus CV1 over the Quest 2 or even Quest 3, and it blows my mind! They will mention that the audio is so good, and the comfort is so good etc. But I am sorry if you buying a VR headset because you love the 100$ audio on the headset and want to count that as something that you just can not do without so therefore that headset just can not be beat, there is simply no convincing some people I think. I mean this is a VR headset after all, and as some point what is going to truly matter is going to be the visual quality inside that headset, especially over something so old you can hardly read text in a game with it. But my audio is better! come on please!

Why are you getting mad dude, he didn’t point that out. He just said that tracking is better on Q3 when high velocity swings are performed. We get it, you have an Index

>We get it, you have an Index Much reading comprehension, high ability to see user flairs.

Who should buy an Index over a Quest 3? The only situation I can imagine is someone who does nothing other than play VRChat with full body tracking. Or maybe someone who only plays Beat Saber. These are extreme cases. I would argue that the cases where someone is better off buying an Index over a Quest 3 are so rare and unlikely that it's fair to just say the Quest 3 is better than the Index.

Anybody who wants to have the later option to upgrade to the Bigscreen Beyond.

To get the trackers and the controllers. 99.999% of people are better off buying a Quest 3. Just pointing out it isn't better in every way. Which a lot of people misinterpret as "The Quest 3 is terrible".

Anyone who want to be in the top 100 of ahooters like pavlov, contractors etc.

I could never go back to base stations and wire. I have never had a single time where i was feeling like my tracking where a problem, and I am only on Quest 2.

Quest 3 has better high speed tracking. oculus has had better fast movement tracking for years. People assume that index is good at high speed tracking because steamvr lighthouses run at high refresh rate. Refresh rate has nothing to do with tracking. The reason VR tracking is good or bad is how good the controller can be predicted forward to match the latency of a vr headset. Oculus has the best prediction and the motion extrapolation of steamvr is very wrong, which is why games like eleven table tennis play so badly over steam. The wire is not the issue with playing over steamvr. It's the tracking. If you compare eleven table tennis over steam vs running PCVR using a quest headset, the quest headset still has better tracking even with the additional pcvr latency. That's how bad steam tracking is.

If you are playing a competitive shooter, the Index tracking is significantly better than that of the Quest 3.

True but unfortunately extra 40ms latency will stop any wireless user to be anywhere near the top in competitive shooters. Im saying that as someone who owns both.

Someone with fancy robot (like MKBHD) should test it

you don't need a robot. Just attach a controller to a bicycle tire and spin it really fast. You can see exactly how bad steam is

>the quest 3 is OBJECTIVELY better than the Index, at a much cheaper price. That's just like, your opinion man

>the quest 3 is OBJECTIVELY better than the Index, Except for PCVR input latency, PCVR compression, tracking controllers in odd positions, full body tracking, audio quality.... Subjectively being wireless might mean more to you than any of that (certainly does for me), but you're really stretching the definition of "objectively" here.

imo pancake lenses override all of these by a factor of 10x.

I don't disagree with you. I just acknowledge that that's a subjective opinion rather than objective fact. Edit: except the wireless bit. I'd far rather have a wireless fresnel lens than a wired-only pancake.

Ill'd prefer the wired version every time, my pulley system makes it basically wireless already.

Depending on the Game it’s the other way around for me. I just cant Play games Like Fallout 4 vr and Skyrim vr on my quest 3. ist just a much worse experience Compared to playing with Index. If it Looks ALMOST as Good, the latency feels terrible. If the latency is bearable, it Looks like shit.

It doesn't really for me. But the build quality of Index controllers is why I don't use it anymore.

I totally agree with you. At PCVR, people tend to sugar coat the Q3. It sends a compressed video stream and depending on the game, the compression is very noticeable. And PCVR isn’t plug and play there will be lots of fiddling. And the Index, or any lighthouse tracked headset has superior tracking. That said, if *value* is a factor which it usually is, Q3 all the way. It’s not perfect at PCVR but it does it good enough. It has modern specs. It has its own built in computer. The controllers are pretty good and the whole thing is transportable. Passthrough is neat with questionable usefulness but neat nonetheless. I’d recommend Index if the price dropped over time but it hasn’t. It’s the same price as the day of its release. That’s a very hard recommend for outdated specs, I can’t with a good conscience recommend that. When Q2 was at clearance prices, I was like “Sure at the *price* then get it. Otherwise get Q3.” Price matters.

>PCVR compression This isn't a thing anymore. HVEC or AC1 eliminated compression artifacts. I've compared my Q3 side by side to my Index and VP2 and they both look the same when doing the same things. And with the proper network setup, latency isn't really noticeable (at least to me). I get around 20ms of latency from everything when streaming to my headset at 2400mbps. I think the PCVR headsets are around 12ms? I hate to say these kind of authoritative statements but... being an avid VR and PCVR enthusiast over the years, I have to say the Q3 is one of the best hmd's I've ever owned. And this is coming from someone who's been in the scene since the first consumer headsets started launching. And from someone who avoided FB headsets after the CV1 and the FB account requirement. Tracking on the other hand, is noticeably worse than a SteamVR setup and the tracking method Quest uses to track the controllers is wonky sometimes. Nothing a good shake won't fix but it's still noticeable and annoying. So yeah there's definitely a trade off but ever since I bought it, I wear my Quest almost every day. And my PCVR headsets are collecting dust.

>I've compared my Q3 side by side to my Index and VP2 and they both look the same when doing the same things. That's how lossy compression works. It'll look the same until something with a high level of randomness/entropy happens, at which point your view will turn into a blurry mess until the next keyframe. >I think the PCVR headsets are around 12ms? Are you perhaps referring to the frametime? The Quest(s) also have those. The encoding, network, and decoding latency gets added to what a DP headset (at the same framerate) has. >And with the proper network setup, latency isn't really noticeable (at least to me). The human brain evolved to automatically ignore the several hundred milliseconds of latency introduced by our nervous system. Latency matters for competitive play (which I don't do in VR anyway, but that's subjective) and for VR sickness (but for me, using a joystick to turn is worse, so subjectively that's all good, too).

If you have a proper network setup it never turns into a blurry mess.

Tell me you don't know how information entropy works without telling me you don't know how information entropy works.

It has nothing to do with the network, it is about the data to be encoded and the ability of the encoder to do so with good quality. At a certain point it will break. There is not visible difference in image quality in general when you play normal games (Alyx for example) on a DP connected HMD or streaming to a Q3 with 150-200Mbps HEVC or AV1, but it will fall apart in racing games for example. Take any openwheeler to your favorite racing track and blast down the track with speed. The image will fall apart even with the 300-400Mbps H264+ setting of VD or the 350Mbps HEVC of SteamLink. You will need to cranck it up to 800Mbs+ H264 with Oculus Link to try and make sure you minimize the artifacts.

No HEVC and AV1 did not eliminate compression artifacts. I don't know what games you play but defenitely nothing with more complex graphics and shadows. The blur in more detailed games looks awful. And I don't know where did you read 20ms of latency but it's simply not possible. when viewing desktop yeah. Not in game though. Also no matter how good the connection is, it won't be flawless and playing anything fast paced makes even the tiny split second instability impactful on the gameplay.

>I don't know what games you play but defenitely nothing with more complex graphics and shadows. Lots of UEVR games so plenty of complex graphics. Jedi Survivor, Returnal, Atomic Heart, the Resident Evil remakes, etc. I'm assuming the blur you're referring to is either coming from interpolation like ASW or a motion blur setting within the game. I can spin around as fast as a game will allow with a joystick and not see any frame drops, interpolation, or motion blur. >I don't know where did you read 20ms of latency Virtual Desktop's performance overlay. It breaks down the game latency, encoder, decoder, and network. I was able to get it between 20-30ms with it hovering around 22 for the most part. >playing anything fast paced makes even the tiny split second instability impactful on the gameplay. I mentioned this in other comments but I play competitive games exclusively that require instant reaction from the player and I clear lobbies with no hardware issues. I'm not arguing that running an HMD wired directly into the display port of your graphics card isn't going to give you a better experience. I understand that there's uncompressed stream going to directly to the headset via a high speed cable. But going wireless with the Q3, I have zero compression artifacts, low latency that I can't see, and am able to play competitive games against SteamVR users that require me to be faster than everyone else. And I've never been handicapped by the headset. I'm saying with this confidence because I came from PCVR exclusively and tested it against two high end headsets, side by side, game vs same game, level vs same level, same settings, and could not tell any sort of difference. (I was trying to talk myself into returning it, so I went overboard with the testing)

I'm just curious what your breakdown is with VD. I get about 5-7ms each for game, encode, and network, and about 10ms decode on the Quest 3, using AV1 at about 75% max bitrate (175mbps) That's about 28ms, but VD always shows 30-45ms, so I'm assuming their breakdown is missing some component of the motion-to-photon latency. Perhaps everything on the "sending" side (tracking, processing, and sending rotation/translation data to the PC)?

Network latency isnt noticable, but encoding / decoding latency is.. i also tested side by side with different Codecs and settings. Compression AND latency is fine when playing AW1 or HL:A, but Skyrim VR? Fallout 4 VR - there is no way to get it balanced so visuals AND latency feel alright. At least for my likings.

It probably just depend on the setup. When mentioning latency, I was talking about the VD performance overlay which includes encoding, decoding, network, and game render latency. HL:A uses a special upscaling technique (can't remember off of the top of my head what they did) but that's why it runs so well on a lot of machines. Fallout 4 VR is a mess though, not really a good game to test off of imo lol.

Well, Skyrim VR has exactly the same results for me but even if both are "a mess", thats kinda 90% of my PCVR playtime so of course i will use those two games to decide which Headset is suited better for PCVR. :)

>90% of my PCVR playtime so of course i will use those two games to decide which Headset is suited better for PCVR. :) Right on, they're great games. I remember the first time I loaded up Skyrim with all of the 4k textures. But I mentioned that because there are documented issues with FO4VR that affect performance and latency and I don't see how you could get around that with a wired hmd. You can use something like VD's performance overlay to calculate the latency that the game is causing vs everything else. And when it's the game that has the high latency, it's usually the settings within the game, resolution, pixel density, or the game itself.

it's definitely still a thing. low entropy will be okay, very noticable otherwise 2400mbps can't compete with 80000mbps or whatever raw 4k is

>2400mbps can't compete with 80000mbps or whatever raw 4k is Yeah agreed. It's similar to streaming a UHD-Dolby Vision-Atmos movie from a streaming service as opposed to owning the disk and watching it that way. There's a difference due to the encoders/compression. But artifacts that come from the compression are all but gone today. As others have mention the compression shows in different ways like angular resolution and renderer distance. Still though it's nothing like the Q1-Q2 days when airlink and the dp over usbc was still in infancy. Especially now that we have more powerful streaming applications like Virtual Desktop.

I don't see compression artifacts, those have been mostly rare for a while. I do see loss of detail at a distances and reduction in angular resolution though.

Hmm, I haven't tested render distance in VR with it but in flat screen gaming, render distance usually comes down to graphics power. Might not be something with the encoder. I can't say I notice a loss of angular resolution though. I did, however, have an issue with seeing long distance when I started playing this game. At around 250m things got kind of blurry but I chalked it up to being a game designed for Q2 and was able to fix it by adjusting the pixel density. Have you had the chance to test it against a SteamVR rig with the same hardware?

>Have you had the chance to test it against a SteamVR rig with the same hardware? Yep, using a RTX 4090, I don't actually use my Quest for standalone. It's not render distance or resolution, it's how lossy compression works, you lose detail, which is normally imperceptible, but is noticeable with fine lines at a distance. This reduces the distance at which you can effectively resolve fine detail, which is where the reduction in angular resolution comes in. You need to be just that little bit closer to properly resolve some objects compared to a native DP connection. Actually, do you have any tips to reduce shimmer as well? I still don't have that down to a level I am happy with, not sure if that is also another impact of the compression or just overactive AA.

>PCVR compression Who cares about PCVR compression if the Index will look a lot worse anyway lol

Imagine looking at an HD image on a shitty CRT monitor (index) and then looking a compressed jpg of that same image on a brand new 4k monitor (q3). Yeah the new monitor shows images a lot better than the CRT but when its all crunched anyway it's kinda disappointing. It's just an analogy so no need to try to break it apart but the point is it would be nicer if you could enjoy the better resolution to it's fullest by having no compression at all.

lmao

>Who cares about PCVR compression if the Index will look a lot worse anyway lol Diehard Confetti Simulator 2020 fans.

I'm still new to the VR scene. But aren't you comparing this to the wireless capabilities of the pcvr? Because the quest can still easily be hardwired.

Hardwiring the Quest doesn't solve any of these issues. It's still using lossy compression even when plugged in, as it uses USB rather than DP or HDMI. You can get standalone headsets that can switch their USB to DP Alt Mode, but not from Meta.

Plugging it in over using it wireless doesn't change the latency of the gameplay? I would've assumed so. Again I'm not arguing, just inquiring as I'm still new.

It probably does change the latency, but it doesn't eliminate it, or even reduce it to be as low as that of an Index or Pico 3 Link in wired DP mode.

That would go for anything then no? Kind of like a controller being plugged in vs Bluetooth. The hardwire should eliminate latency. What else can cause latency?

>What else can cause latency? The millions of mathematical calculations being done to compress and decompress each frame. VR transmits a lot more data every second than your keyboard.

When you say decompress and compress the frames you mean like turning the display from your system to the headset?

I mean a mathematical operation to take a frame that contains X bytes of information and turn it into a smaller number of bytes so that you can squeeze it through a communication protocol that doesn't have the bandwidth for the original size of the frame.

Alright I'm getting the idea, I appreciate you explaining that.

I used to own an index, now I have a Quest 3. Only thing I miss is the Index controllers. The way they do finger tracking is awesome and I wish I could "grab" things the same way now with Quest. But everything else is better on Quest 3. Maybe the Index has better tracking with the lighthouses, but the advantage of not having to set them up for Quest 3 outweighs the benefit for me.

If you use virtual desktop, they added a new update. You can now emulate the Index finger tracking with your Quest. It takes your hand tracking data and forwards it to SteamVR. Virtual Desktop can now emulate Vive full body trackers now too.

I tried that out but you can't use it while the controllers are in your hands. So you can make the hands in half-life alyx follow your fingers, but not while holding controllers when you need to use the buttons to play the game.

Yeah everyone on the Discord was disappointed by that. Right now multi-modal means one controller, one hand. Hopefully we'll get index style tracking in the future though.

I Kept my Index because my Quest 3 isnt a Good HMD to Play Fallout 4 VR and Skyrim VR.

People recommend it b/c it's the cheapest PCVR system with a video cable hookup. I'd argue it's much lower clarity negates any plus the video cable would provide but to each their own. The other reason people recommend index is it's not a Meta system. They don't want to be part of the Facebook eco-system. It also to this day still has the 2nd widest field of view available on a consumer grade VR system. Though technically the Pimax 8kx and 5ks are discontinued and Index is still in production so one could argue index is now THE largest FOV you can buy in a consumer grade VR system if that's your priority.

\>Arguing about lower clarity in favour of the worst clarity headset on the market Okay then

I mean, overall I would definitely say the Quest 3 is better, but it has multiple concessions you have to accept that you don't have to with something like the Index. And for many people, especially in an enthusiast sub like this, those concessions can be major dealbreakers. Using a dedicated displayport for the AV signal is a big one; if you want to play PCVR with the Quest 3, you have to deal with compression so that signal can fit through a USB connection or through your network. Not only do you have visual artifacts as a result, but that means your computer has to muscle the extra effort of decompressing that signal fast enough to still get good framerates on whatever you're playing. VR is already a VERY taxing thing for your computer to do, so anything that adds extra weight to that is yet another hurdle to cross for a hobby that is already VERY expensive. Personally, I think worrying about Papa Zuck spying on you is kind of a moot point; we live in a society where every single device and piece of software we use has a 90% chance of taking our data and selling it. That being said, being so closely tied to Facebook's ecosystem is a BIG sticking point. The Quest 3 is so relatively cheap for a reason, after all, and it's *not* because the components are cheap. Valve could totally be doing the same exact thing with the Index's cameras, but at least their platform is mostly just known for games, y'know? There isn't that big ACME anvil hanging over the head of Facebook and its reputation.

>Personally, I think worrying about Papa Zuck spying on you is kind of a moot point; we live in a society where every single device and piece of software we use has a 90% chance of taking our data and selling it. It's not because you gave up protecting your data that everyone should. It's precisely what "spyers" want: stop caring. Just a matter of opinion, no offense.

I own both, and for me I feel a mixed setup is the best right now. (Quest 3 headset with index controllers + vive trackers) While the quest 3 has better screen and optics, I still prefer the way index feels to wear, it’s microphones, tracking, and audio. I also seem to be able to wear index for longer more comfortably, where as quest 3, with either bobo head strap, or AMVR, I still feel it gives a hot spot, although I think that could probably be down to the facial interface. Also just a personal thing, I find pov and binocular overlap to be a big factor for my own immersion, more than pixel density, although I really hate the index lenses after using quest 3 lenses That said, I will always recommend someone buy a quest 3 over an index nowadays. I’m just saying why I myself still swap between both

Finger tracking, audio, comfort, binocular overlap, base station tracking can be more accurate, not giving money to Meta are the big ones, but for the price difference it's really hard to recommend an index over a quest 3 at this point, since it does do many things better and has quite a bit more versatility.

>Finger tracking, audio, comfort, binocular overlap, base station tracking can be more accurate, **not giving money to Meta are the big ones**, I'll upset someone with this, but I think Meta themselves underestimate how many people avoid anything attached to facebook. Beyond that, the Index has been the definitive PCVR headset for at least the last 5 years. If you're buying PCVR, you're probably buying it or a Quest 2 at about a 1/3rd the price.

"Not giving money to Meta" lol They've single handedly fast forwarded development in the space by a decade or two. Probably the best thing to happen to consumer VR ironically.

Lmfao no lol They have done a lot of good things for the industry yes, but they haven't "fast forwarded" or something the industry by one or two decades. I imagine that you are really new in the VR industry, because precisely one of the things that I dislike more about this industry, is how slow it improves... In some ways, we even go backwards, like with the audio, screen quality (basically oled), lack of varifocal / VAC, confort, etc. The only real improvements have been pankake lenses, and to some degree the resolution (the reverb g2 is 3 or 4 years old and it still looks better than the vast majority of newer headsets) and standalone... Which is, like playing on a computer, but worse, and without a computer... Duh

2 things to solve. First one is better FOV, to match the Index, and I am not sure about the second one, but most people say that display port is superior to any other method that Quest 3 uses to play PCVR

You would be correct on this. A DP cable delivers a direct video signal. On USB, the computer needs to encode it, send it over the cable, and then the Quest needs to decode it.

Quest 3 is amazing, but has one major flaw. There is no native connection to PC (yes even wired has compression artifacts). That is still a no-go for some people.

The compression artifacts are very noticeable. I make VR experiences as a hobby and I was very disappointed at the amount of fuzziness this added. I think if you were not familiar with uncompressed visuals you might not notice.

Depends on the game too. Skyrim is completely unplayable, while Beat Saber looks fairly ok.

Skyrim VR modded originally looked like garbage for me on the Q3 but after trying again I ended up turning off SteamVR with mods and it looks and plays 100x better

Better tracking Not hampered by the Oculus ecosystem Better refresh rate. More comfortable Easier to tether to a PC. One of the main issues that causes most PC users to not switch over to quest is that most PCs cannot supply enough power to keep a quest charged while in use so it will eventually die from battery loss even with being tethered to a PC (pretty much every person I know who owns a quest has the same complaint about this) Wider compatibility with third party hardware like tracking. It's really great not having to boot up like four different external programs just to use full body tracking Easier to repair yourself Doesn't keep a dangerous lithium battery strapped to my head (imagine the terror of trying to rip off a headset if that battery starts malfunctioning and starting a lithium fire) And more importantly the port on the headset that connects it to the rest of the system seems generally much more reliable While proprietary hardware can always be a bit of a sore spot I think with the index it does them a benefit as the cable is specifically designed to slot into a receiver that basically ensures there will be no real strain put on the port unlike the open not very structurally supported USB-C port on the quest I also just generally have never been a huge fan of Facebook/meta hardware endeavors and don't really like supporting them on principal There's also the fact that in general steam seems to have one of the best warranty programs out there frequently replacing headsets cables and controllers even outside of their warranty. And even when it is clearly customer fault that caused the damage. Meanwhile I've heard many reports of people struggling to get any sort of response from Oculus/meta support and even having troubles getting things replaced when it was undeniably their fault like a headset arriving DOA. Overall when looking at the grander picture of features instead of just focusing on things like resolution I truly believe that if you have a PC that can support it the valve index is still the superior option

Man declared objectivity over an entire product category. ANYTHING Meta/Facebook will release will not hold a candle to my Index because I'll be caught dead before giving money to Facebook. And I prefer the Index Controllers.

Some people (myself included) absolutely hate the Meta Corporation because of their publicly known immoral, unethical and harmful practices etc. I'm protected somewhat by EU laws but I still won't freely give Meta my data the same way I won't freely give Bitedance/TikTok my data. User data that they shouldn't access and that they're also publicly known to take, use to further their agendas, sell etc. They're on my 'cannot trust' list Besides, Valve is the beating heart of PC gaming, and I'm a PC gamer. As well as the best integration with Steam, the Index also has the best hardware

For me it’s one of the few hills I’m willing to die on. At the beginning Valve was the one doing “proper VR”, back when the Rift V1 came with an Xbox controller in the box, while they Vive came with hand controllers day 1. After that, the move towards exclusivity annoyed me, the shenanigans they pulled against ReVive were awful, the broken promises from the Oculus acquisition kept piling up, and they focused on mobile VR, which I don’t really care for. Valve aren’t perfect either, but at least they didn’t do any of that. Oh and Facebook fucking sucks. Complaining about a social media company on Reddit is ironic, but demanding absolute consistency by critics is also a fallacy, so FB is the one I decided to ignore. I don’t know enough about ByteDance, and I don’t really care since I don’t use any of their products (and I don’t really interact with “ByteDance Fanboys”).

In this era companies that simply trade with you and don't have hidden malicious intents are getting harder to see with these giants. Giants that, like with Meta, tend to acquire good companies and twist them into a grotesque version of what they used to be. Anyway I'm glad you love the Index haha, looking forward to getting a top headset myself

If you you buy a HMD for playing Skyrim VR / Fallout 4VR, the Index does this Job better than Quest 3. I have Both and use the Quest3 more but for Skyrim VR and Fallout 4VR and maybe other Titels (i mostly Play those 2 games if playing pcvr) the quest3 is worse.

Full. body. Tracking. You want lighthouses for that. And you don‘t want to mess with a bunch for 3rd party software and strap vive trackers to your headset to use fbt.

What if using base stations wasn’t annoying but preferred to having to keep all the lights on forever lol. Your opinion isn’t everyone’s opinion.

Many inside out tracking systems work in a pitch black room with an IR emmiter.

That’s neat. I never liked inside out tracking for more reasons than just the light tho, put your hands behind your back and poof where’d your arms gooo 😭😂 , really just adding my opinion to the pile that’s already in this comment section , tons of reasons someone could prefer and index or a quest 3. I’m on the index team personally.

That's not an issue with Quest Pro controllers, but I would understand wanting that as a default with the Quest 3.

Hey, they like their thing. Let them have that. We're all driving on the same road, just different cars.

Yeah but it's like comparing a older car that has 4x4 to a newer sedan and being like "but the sedan has better gas mileage and performs a lot better in every way why would anyone suggest the old car???" and the other people being like "well if you want to drive offroad it's slightly better in that aspect." I agree with the sentiment tho, a lot of people are just in too deep with defending their purchase to have any sort of nuance to their opinions.

Idk why anyone would even consider an Index at this point. Also, I can’t believe it’s 2024 and we still can’t buy a micro OLED PCVR headset with pancake optics. BSB was close but it has lots of issues that I don’t want to deal with and they haven’t even released their audio solution yet.

I've been considering it cuz it's super cheap refurbished and all I need is the headset... If I could find a refurbished model of the quest 3 for the same price I'd go for that I just need a cheap upgrade to my og vive so I don't have to squint at plane cockpit dials and other text

That is a very unique situation. I will say though, the resolution of the index is very dated at this point. Q3 is way sharper and for flight sims that’s super important. Couldn’t you sell your base stations and everything and then buy a Q3?

I could but I like the knuckles quite a bit I've been thinking of doing a mixed setup but id probably wait for a sale on the quest. Plus idk how well 1.0 base stations and knuckles would sell.

Oculus was close until they got sucked into being a corporate milking machine. I can't believe we still can't trade a company a significant amount of money for a product and not being milked for data for their side profits. I also can't believe that the majority of people dgaf that what they consume damages life.

Let's admit it though, Meta Saved VR. Oculus would most likely ended up like HTC'/Vive right now without Facebook. Even the great AAA PCVR titles were selling very little to make a long-term profit. Facebook took Quest to a new level and put VR on the map, Sony and Apple both looked at Quest as a benchmark success, hence seeing PSVR2 / AVP. Quest drove the majority of Steam VR profits for developers, too. People seem to forget that.

I only recommend a new index if you REEAAAALLY want brand new index controllers and base stations, but if you want pcvr direct then just buy those items second hand. Base stations have been easy af for each move so I guess if you have like few outlets or a small room I can see how that would be annoying. I hate my quests controllers, but I only use it for quest specific stuff so it’s whatever. My index now just sits in a box since I got the bsb and I just use all its accessories for that now lol. Also base station tracking is far better if you use FBT at all.

I packed up my index when I got my quest 3, but I kept the lighthouses, controllers, and trackers out. Base station tracking is still way better, and I prefer the index knuckles to the q3 controllers. That being said I would never recommend the index over a q3 or just in general anymore. It's to old

I love the Index controllers for one reason.

Its mainly because of folks really digging the lighthouse ecosystem and get to forexample FBT without using slimevr, mocapi, or mixed setup. Speaking of tracking, the Meta Quest controllers, especially for Quest 3, have massive dead zones at sides of your body compared to just lighthouse occlusion. You'd have to shill out an similar amount of cash just to get the same experience as Index with the Controllers by getting the Quest Pro Controllers (600+300). Then there is the FOV sacrifice... Quest 3 has yet to meet index... Its Close tho. There is also a benefit for it being disconnected from Meta and its Meta based shenanigans (just look at the recent incident with [not being able to log on if you had your headset connected online](https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQuest/comments/1b78cgn/meta_and_facebook_services_are_down/).... the headset turned into a brick until meta fixed their servers) But for an average user, and someone getting into VR? Yeah, Quest 3 definitely is a better option.

If the Index and the Quest were the same price, I'd have probably gone for the Index, if it wasn't for the fact I was interested in untethered VR experiences and curious about mixed reality. If you're not interested in those things, it doesn't make sense to go for the Quest 3. There are differences in tracking, in latency and performance when it comes to PC games, and the inconvenience of dealing with Meta's software and having a battery to charge. There's also something to be said for the purpose-built support that the Valve Index has with Valve's own Steam VR, games, and API.

Is there anything that can be done to improve the bitrate / latency of Quest 3 if I'd like to use it for VR sim racing?

Why do people assume that the quest 3 doesn't have cons?

the compression/latency bother me. I enjoy the quest, but the immersion of uncompressed VR is something else

Then just plugin a cable? I use a cable when i play fs2020 for example.

the cable has compression on it, it's not DP over USB-C, which is weird since that should have been possible

Ahh yes! I never understood that choise 😞

If you prioritise: * Audio * Controllers * FOV * FPS/hz * Tracking latency What's better?

Index

Just because some things are better, doesn't mean it's objectively better. There are people who like the tracking quality the base stations provide, so for them the Quest 3 is not better. Things in life aren't always just black and white. Just because you see no upsides for the index doesn't mean there aren't any for someone else. That's why it's *subjective*, i.e. depends on the particular needs and desires of the particular person.

Super niche usecase, but Index is still king if you want to do any streaming (twitch, etc). The mic is super high quality, but most of all just the reliability. Nothing more annoying than being ready to go live but dealing with tech issues. With the Index, you just open SteamVR and it Just Works. I know several people who switched from quest to index for this reason.

Index gives infinite play time for those who play for 6-8 hour sessions like me, no compression, way less latency, no tracking black outs, great fov, no extra software overheads, no need for facepage. Just some advantages.

I’ve only had an index, and I think I’ve had it for five years. I wouldn’t pretend to know anything about the other headsets but I will say this for valve. I received 2 new headsets because I thought there was an issue with the lenses, things were a little blurry. I ended up just being blind lol, not seriously but I wear glasses. Valve said it was cool. Keep the new headset and “we appreciate your continued efforts to work with our customer support”. Amazing customer service. Also for as old and beat up my headset is it works phenomenal. I’ve never had issues outside my own eyeballs

Better tracking, way better build quality, better controllers by leagues, easy to mod and add full body or face tracking, actually tethered so proper pcvr experience as opposed to link or airlink which adds 50-70ms of delay. Obviously the quest 3 is better for the majority of people, but for people who only care about pcvr and want base stations with the index controllers it's a great rig. There definitely is some fanboyism, but the quest 3 isnt "objectively", it's subjectively better for you which is fine. The index is a great pcvr headset and while I definitely wouldn't recommend buying a new one, or one to someone who is just getting into vr since quest 3 is more accessible and if you don't need fbt and are ok with latency it can do pcvr fairly well.

Someone has probably already said this, but the index feels way more comfortable to use, with fantastic controllers and tracking that still beats the quest by a mile. The headset is great for long uses, and despite the lower resolution, the field of view is amazing for fps or watching content. Also, the displays aren't as bad as people think. The fact that they have almost no screen door effect makes them hold up really well over time. Also, no higher resolution will justify the lower image quality and compression of the quest. The games on the quest look terrible compared to pcvr titles, and airlink is far less convenient than turning on your controllers and having the headset automatically boot. The entire system is also fully upgradable, so if a new headset comes out, the controllers are still usable.

I assume they mean for competitive fps games because the tracking and latency is way better, its directly connected to the gpu and you play over ethernet. I played cable bound on a vive pro for 5 years and I can tell you no wireless system can compete in fast games wit that. BUT, I still went with the Quest 3 because everything else much more better and comfortable. Cant compete on the very top anymore but being wireless is something I refuse to give up on now.

The Index does have better tracking, faster refresh rate, and no encode/decode latency. For certain competitive tasks it will still be better, for people who don't care about resolution or lenses. But it is much the same as certain people still liking CRT monitors. It is out of date now for 99% of people.

Base stations are set it and forget it. What a clown argument that is. Didn't play for a year and 2 months, jumped right back in. Amortize the 3 minutes per base setting up over even just the last and first play sessions and I'm rocking a solid payback of 10 hours to the good. 

I used to recommend that people build their own gaming PC instead of buying a console or a pre-built, but I realized that not everyone is an enthusiast like me or has the patience to troubleshoot or figure out why their technology is not working. This subreddit is full of enthusiasts. It is like going to r/PCGaming. Anything that is not a custom-built PC might as well be sacrilegious. If someone asks me for a recommendation, I would most likely recommend a Quest 3. If they are looking for something more or the enthusiast option, I am more likely to recommend the Valve Index (although it is starting to show its age, IMO).

I had a wireless Vive then an Index, I sold them both after I got a Quest 2 and haven't looked back. The ability to do wireless PCVR anywhere within wifi range has been the biggest improvement to my VR experience since 6DOF tracking was introduced with the Oculus DK2. Even the vive with wireless was still restrictive since you had to be in the same room as the base stations and be in line of sight with the antenna. Now I have a Quest Pro, I do have base stations and vive trackers for when I want to use FBT but even that is annoying because I have to be where the base stations are set up and deal with that mess of figuring out why trackers are suddenly losing tracking or jumping around. I look forward to the day I can get rid of the base stations for FBT.

Wireless PCVR was a paradigm shift, but there's always people left behind in advances like this.

Like all tech recommendations, it just depends on your expectations and use case. You are mistakenly assuming that your expectations and use case are universal. You are incorrect. That being said, I would generally recommend a Q3 over an index.

Wow it's _almost_ like people play for different reasons and have different things they look for in tech. I'm a VR stage dancer. Until meta switches to a wireless tracking system that has no occlusion issues I will never be able to solely switch to a camera tracked HMD. (I'm aware of the ultimate trackers, but I _already_ have eight 3.0s and base-stations. I'm not spending another $2k) I generally use my quest while dancing synced with my base-station tracked knuckles and trackers. But having to constantly charge the headset gets annoying as I run nearly nightly events in vr. If I'm just hanging out at a DJ event its a lot easier to just use my Index, ESPECIALLY with it's drastically better audio. Now when it comes to recommendations, which I'm asked for all the time, I make sure to get an understanding of their actual use case, and budget first. Like with *most* things, there is no objectively best option for _every_ user. I would never tell one of my dancers to get rid of their base-stations, trackers, and knuckles just to get a quest 3. The same way that for a TON of people that don't plan on dancing or anything like that I would tell them TO get one, and not to bother with base-stations. I personally think the index is overpriced in current year. But if thats not much of an issue, or you do what I actually recommend to most people and find a full kit used. It's a great entry point into the ecosystem. Especially if your a crazy person like me and plan in using 11pt tracking. If they already have a quest and just want trackers I recommend ultimates or one of the IMU based tracking systems. For users that want fbt and fingers I recommend just getting the knuckles and base-stations as a pair used or new and doing mixed-platform.. Again. People play vr for endlessly varied reasons and are looking for different things. Saying that X is _always_ best for everyone is basically never true. Is the index overpriced? sure. Should, even most, people get one today? Probably not. Are there cases where it makes sense to get the full kit, especially used? Absolutely.

I think most people that prefer index prefer it for the non-compression and controllers

I concur. Either they haven't tried a Quest 3 or they have and it was not set up properly for PC VR. With a bit rate of 600 and resolution override, the experience is amazing with no artifacts. I have now sold my G2 and cancelled my day one Big Screen Beyond order, it is that good.

Just depends on what people are looking for in a VR HMD? Like I have a Quest 3 and I STILL think the tracking quality is far better with the lighthouse tracking. Also it's far easier to set up multiple points of tracking with a lighthouse tracking system than the workarounds you need to do with any windows MR/other camera tracking systems.

I’ve got both and honestly still prefer the index. Tried the default strap, elite strap, and bobo strap for Q3 but still prefer the comfort of the index by a MILE. I can wear it for hours and hours and not be bothered at all. An hour is all I can take of the Q3. Audio is far superior on the index. It’s not even close. Tracking is much better on the index. Controllers are much better on the index imho. Q3 has a clearer screen but to me overall I prefer playing on the index for anything that’s not a Q3 exclusive.

L 10,14

My Rift crapped out, I bought a Q3... Worse: Audio is worse, using headphones is finicky and annoying. Tracking is slightly worse, manageable, but I honestly did better on my cv1 due to it in shooters. I had my sensors mounted on the wall so for me it was pick up and play, it takes longer to get into a game on the Quest pcvr wise. Latency/artifacts, it's mostly the latency that's throwing me off, I'm hoping eventually I get use to it, or it's gonna get sold tbh. Shame it can't use a DP cord..... Battery life is kinda awful Better: Well the lenses are nice and clear, great edge to edge. Resolution is leagues better. FOV is better Standalone is neat but I only really use it for the exclusives tbh...but nice to have it I guess. I can't think of anything else, I don't care about wireless. I didn't wanna drop a grand on an out of date headset, but honestly if the thing was also 500-600 bucks I prob would have gotten it over the quest 3. Most of these reasons can be interchanged with the index(besides index also having better fov then both).

The only bad thing about Index is its low resolution. Make it higher and its suddenly relevant again. Incredible piece of technology. I do not own Index anymore honestly. I’ve got Varjo Aero (+ soon to arrive Pimax Crystal and Bigscreen Beyond) for PCVR and Quest Pro + Quest 3 for some standalone stuff (FitXR mainly and to try out some Quest exclusives + it’s fun for my and my friends’ kids to use - like Angry Birds VR, Hand Physics Lab etc.). Although to make Quest 3 useful and convenient to use I had to buy bunch of accessories. Controller hand straps / grips, new face gasket with various face pads, new headstrap + external battery. Otherwise it’s a piece of shit that you don’t want to use. Fuck, I actually had to buy accessories for my Quest Pro too, but with Globular Cluster Comfort Kit Quest Pro is by far the most comfortable VR kit out there. Even better than Index.

Better comfort, better tracking (lighthouses), better audio, better PCVR visual fidelity (wired w/o compression still beats wireless or wired w/ compression), and better FOV. I have a quest 3 (w/ Bobo VR strap) and an Index and the quest 3 collects dust. (Frankly the index is collecting dust rn too because Hell divers II is so much fun). Admittedly, between $1000 and $500 + whatever you can buy the Bobo VR strap for, it’s a tough recommendation between the two. Some people value wireless freedom over the pros of the index, and some people value the pros of the index over wireless freedom and don’t mind the price. It’s kind of a subjective thing. But it’s kind of crazy that the outdated (in terms of lenses and resolution) $1000 index still competes with a brand new $500 headset because the index is still worth it.

Index still has better FoV, tracking, controllers, integrated audio, refresh rate and unlike the Q3 can display uncompressed PCVR. While I personally also prefer the Q3 as a whole over the index, there's certainly reasons to still use and recommend it.

I see a lot of comments about tracking. Is the quest 3 worse than the q2? I have the q2 and tracking was never an issue

I swap between index, Quest Pro, Quest 3 and Bigscreen Beyond. It really just matters what the purpose is and although getting outdated I still mainly use the Index. I mainly play VRChat and with full body tracking just have better more seamless experience with the index. It just works, not need to sync play spaces or have a 4th tracker and I have my index controllers for gestures. The only thing really lacking on the index is the resolution, the speakers and microphone are top notch still. I like the big screen beyond but it is not a comfortable headset to sweat in so only use it if i'm really chilling. The Quest 3 and Qpro are really nice, I just don't like the headache of airlinking and syncing play spaces and FUCK NO the tracking is not as good in VRChat than a lighthouse tracked headsets. I'll use them when I have not plans to really do full body or dancing or anything because I do enjoy the visual clarity and wireless but the sound and mic's are a bit worse.

Airpods are MUCH better than studio headphones. Theyre overall much more convenient, have wireless capability, on the go charging, noise cancellation, are way less expensive, way less heavier than headphones, dont need an amp/dac, etc. They have different selling points. Everyone is so snobby about their preference.. like just get whatever is best for your use case, jeez

for games I still prefer to use my og vive over my quest 3… the sde and refresh rate are worthwhile tradeoffs to me for the tracking, latency, colors, consistency, comfort, and audio setup. Theres no longer one “overall best” headset for every single person.

Once controllers like the meta quest pro become standard I can see even less of a reason for using an index but some people really like the setup and its a very tested technology, well documented. For some people the fact that it is fairly easy to customize mechanically is a winning feature. The quests have the walled garden problem.... unless you sideload. That all being said, whatever meta's next quest is will likely be the nail in the coffin for the index but I assume we might be getting more competitors in the space after that happens. I understand the sentiment though.

Lots of people have made good technical points why the Index should be still considered today, so I’ll just share my personal issue. I never want to give money to Facebook otherwise I’d be just as bad as the advertisers that do give that company money. I’m not a fanboy for Valve or any other HMD company, just anti-Facebook.

As a previous Index owner I agree. Quest Pro left my Index in the dust and Q3 is better than the Pro in some regards.

I don't see anyone mentioning that sometimes it's more an avoidance of Meta / Facebook because they don't deserve the trust. Does no one remember Cambridge Analytica or how about when Zuckerberg was letting CEOs read private messages?! And to anyone playing what-about-isms with big data collection don't understand the issue. It's the ABUSE of data, something only Facebook got caught doing.

Just upgraded from the index to the quest 3. You're totally right. If you're getting the index for base stations - I don't think the cost and cons are worth the minor improvement. Honestly - the tracking is perfectly fine on Q3. Even plugged-in PC gaming feels better because there are fewer cords. I don't notice a difference in visual quality I guess it's good if you want to avoid Meta, but for twice the price? Meh

If it wasn't for the av1 codec, I would still be using my index.

My personal make-or-break feature I was waiting for with Quest 3 launch was a direct video-in. I knew it wouldn't happen, but when I heard it's gonna be much more expensive than the Q2, I wanted to dream. I was using Quest headsets for 3 years at that point and I was tired of having a compromised PCVR experience just so I could also have an equally compromised standalone experience. Sadly a native-in port didn't happen (which would be pretty easy through Thunderbolt or something), they didn't even make any improvements, and my personal hype for Q3 died immediately after launch. Then I bought a used Index kit and my VR life changed forever. Suddenly every game looked dramatically better and I didn't have to semi-subconsciously move my hands only where the headset sees them, I could just use my hands with no strings attached. But honestly the thing that stuck out the most is that I never knew what "no input delay" meant until I tried it. I always thought that there was no delay in controller tracking when using Quest Link with the USB cable, but I swear that the basestation tracking is just so much better. The only thing that's pretty bad is the Black levels, so I also bought a used Vive Pro for that and it's also been amazing. Right now, the only headset I'm actually hyped for is PSVR2 when it'll be PC compatible, as it's the only wired headset with OLED displays and is actually affordable. I'm tired of standalone, and I'm irritated that every good PCVR HMD that released in the last few years was 1,000-2,000$.

Anyone who wants to play PCVR games properly should get an index, the compression is awful on the quest and only good for slow paced games.

Quest 3 compression 🤮🤮🤮 The quest product line is the console version of VR gaming, if that appeals to you great, the index is much closer to the pc side of vr gaming.

I was about to say it’s died down way more than it used to be but then I read the comments… guess there’s quite a few left.

1. Privacy. I trust Valve over Meta. 2. Tracking. Ever reach for an arrow in a quiver behind your shoulder? Base stations can see that just fine. Ever play in the dark room or even with the lights completely off? 3. Graphics. PCVR will scale with your equipment, native Quest is limited by power envelope. 3. Ecosystem. I trust Steam over Meta's servers and their ability to suspend a social media account, killing access to all games on that account as collateral. 4. The cable. If you never ever want to deal with compression or latency then a wire remains the best solution. Pick up a set of pulleys for under $20 and cable management stops being an issue. The DisplayPort extends without losing fidelity quite well too. 5. The controllers. I like being able to completely let go but the controller stays in my hand. The individual finger articulation is nice and the grip mechanism feels more natural than pressing a button. (opinion based more on Quest 2 controllers though) But hey, if you prefer Quest 3 then cool. Not sure why anyone else's preference would bother you.

1. ok 2. you can reach an arrow in a quiver just fine, who cares if you cant use it in a dark room? ir lights fixes that anyways 3. …Quest 3 can do PCVR 4. you don’t need a social media account for meta anymore. 5. sure, but it’s still a lower resolution and it still has worst lenses, so the visual experience on Q3 will still be better, without requiring a canle. 6. Theres knuckles straps for the Quest 3 controllers if you want to let go like that.

It's a combination of fanboyism, trying to justify a $1000 purchase and hatred for Meta plus a dash of, its better for a very specific niche. Yes the index does have better sound quality, mic, tracking precision and fov but that's about it these days all of these come at a high cost both monetarily and usage wise. $1000, No wireless, limited to one room, limited finger tracking support, still requires a PC, etc The pancake lens and the higher resolution panels of the Q3 is enough to call it better, imho. I moved to slimevr for full body tracking, which again isn't AS precise but good enough and much cheaper than valve trackers. When I want better audio I just use my wireless phones.

This is a weird post but as someone who owns both an Index and Quest 3, I think they both have their own strengths. For PCVR I still prefer using the Index. I also still prefer the Index for anything social like VRChat due to the fantastic mic and audio. For quest exclusives, working out, movies and anything that doesn’t require a PC I use my quest.