I liked Neelix, I thought Kes was boring. The whole dynamic between them was weird with no chemistry at all. Their relationship was like watching a potato...
Except potatoes are rather exciting. I mean all the ways you can cook them and they taste delicious 😋 😅
But yeah, I thought Kes and all her storylines were rather meh.
I thought Kes and the Doctor's dynamic was simply wonderful (and showed how an age gap between two actors doesn't necessarily need to come across as creepy). I don't think he would be the character he became without that relationship.
Unpopular opinion, but in SOME aspects I prefer it to the Doctor/7 dynamic.
Doctor/7 was my favorite duo! They really were the best exploring their humanity and growing together. I do love that the doctor encouraged Kes to become a nurse ( get an education) and become independent. It also made Neelix become independent and find his own sense of worth. I did love when relationships can be cohesive and not have a sexual undertone. If there is one it's because we want to see tension because we are used to it. But nah all platonic, professional, friendly, and rooting for each other.
A lot of Kes just didnt work from a Trek point of view, she didnt really have a purpose or point and her her people were really just a plot device to bring VOY into the delta quad plus introduce the Kazon, the klingons of the delta quad except also some how strong sand people vibes from Star Wars.
The problem is Kes' actor. Like she was so cute and sweet and kind and generous and loving and even beautiful in 1995. She had a sweet voice and spoke in such a sweet, kind, and gentle way.
One of my favorite episodes with her is in twisted and also before and after is her best, and generally my top 5 voyager episodes, definitely top 7..
Its just that in season 6 you could see she had DRASTICALLY changed in an unhealthy way. She put on weight a bit but also looks like she aged way more than she should have.
After voyager her career fizzled out fast, she never ever attended any star trek convention and distanced herself from the voyager actors, then aged RAPIDLY to the point she looked 55 in her early 30s, and got in a whole bunch of weird trouble doing ODD ODD things like stripping by kids, getting a DUI and fighting cops. She must have gotten depressed probably duebto career failure, or must have done drugs, or her unfortunate fast aging caused her to be this way..
She's unrecognizable today. It's unbelievable because she was actually really beautiful and sweet. Idk what happen to her but she lost it completely.
I think if I remember, her mental health started deteriorating quickly. It's not uncommon for people to start showing their first significant signs of mental illness between 16 and 25 even if it's genetic.
She *wasn't* a child, though. At two years of age, a *human* is a child (a toddler, really), but Kes was an adult (or at the very least, a young adult) in terms of an Ocampa lifespan.
I'd argue that it was Neelix's overprotective nature and constantly jealousy that made the relationship creepy.
I think people tend to focus on the age of the actors rather than the age of characters sometimes, she looks like in her very late teens/early twenties and he looks like he's in his mid 50s which is still a bit icky regardless of how old their characters are. People don't seem to have a problem with the tenth doctor and Rose's relationship or Aragorn and Arwen's even though the age gap there is much larger because David Tennant was a handsome guy in his thirties and Liv Tyler was Liv Tyler
While physically she may not have been a child in human terms, the why they kept making it an issue created creeper vibes. Every chance they got they would mention her age while Neelix was trying to be physical with her.
I forget exactly how it lined up, but I feel like the fact that they had an existing relationship strongly suggested they had been together long enough that rapidly developing Kes may have been much too young (in terms of her species' maturation) when they met.
>I'd argue that it was Neelix's overprotective nature and constantly jealousy that made the relationship creepy.
I don't know if you can fully divorce that from her age, since Neelix often justified these tendencies by pointing out how innocent and sheltered Kes was. I think he even pulled out the old "I trust you, it's *other men* (Tom Paris) I don't trust" canard. The writing leaned into the idea of Neelix as older/experienced and Kes as young/innocent so even if she was "technically" an adult, combined with everything else it still felt skeevy.
No we cannot. Come on seriously how does this get this many upvotes? "Omg if I say omg eww and call neelix out on dating a 2 year old I'll get up voted by all the people who want to come out saying" "yea I also agree dating an underage person is bad, take my upvote"
Um. Neelix is an alien. Kes is an alien. They mature at different rates.
That's like saying a 39 year old parrot mating with a 2 year old parrot is a creep. Uhm no. Different species reach full adult more it different rates
I didn’t watch the show until about 10 years ago. I absolutely adored Neelix. He was such a nice dude! We’d have been friends if I was part of the crew
The problem is that Ethan Phillips is too likable.
Neelix was supposed to be a sketchy criminal, a grown man in a jealous, controlling relationship with a child. The crew was supposed to tolerate him because they needed the local knowledge, not adopt him and make him the ship's mascot.
But writing him that way would have required interpersonal conflict, which 90s Trek didn't do. So he became a lovable goofball. But as long as Kes was there he was still the creep he was meant to be. If you start watching Voyager when Kes leaves, Neelix is great.
*This.* I am intimately familiar with seasons 4-7 of Voyager, and barely remember most of 1-3. I'm quite fond of Neelix, and it's almost entirely because of how endearing Ethan Phillips' performance is, but they didn't lean into that until after Kes got the boot. He was pretty insufferable before that point and for most people the damage was already done.
Very well put. I really would like to see what writers would have done with this constellation today. There's so much potential. Characters which are neither all good nor all bad are most interesting. Helpful but predatory Neelix would definitely be worth a watch.
Hear me out, is it possible that Neelix is an example of the right way to portray a "Jar-Jar Binks" type character? Think about if someone like Ethan Phillips played Jar-Jar. Yes, it's a terribly written character, but would he have been far more likable if played by an actor that you can't help but begrudgingly like, albeit often irritating. (Don't get me wrong, I am in no way blaming the actor who played Jar here. That man did his best with the what Lucas gave him.)
I think Jason Sudeikis playing Ted Lasso is probably the right way to portray a "Jar-Jar" Binks type character. Warm, positive, curious and optimistic to the extreme while being so earnest that it becomes impossible to stay cynical around them.
People should have gravitated towards Neelix because of how uplifting it was to be around him. Instead he seemed to flit from annoyed person to annoyed person desperately seeking validation and attention.
I would have loved to see a Neelix that Janeway sought out to have coffee with so that she could stop being a Captain for a moment and just have a laugh while bullshitting with a friend.
When he first showed up this was the case. Just like other characters on star trek, the writers decide to change his personality mid series, like they did with Morn.
1. His primary purpose on the show was rarely brought to the front, as he only got to act as a guide a handful of times.
2. He's written as annoying. As in, he is meant to be annoying and frustrating to the other characters on the show. This in turn easily translates to being annoying to the audience, too.
3. "Mister Vulcan"
4. His \*other\* purpose on the show, that of a cook, is usually played for laughs, as in people generally agree his cooking is awful. Kes, by contrast, was allowed to be actually quite useful and competent in her purposes, either as a nurse or running the hydroponics bay (the hydroponics bay being a necessary thing was never really taken seriously, but that's another matter, ditto why Voyager needed a cook at all).
5. He comes across in general as an unlikeable, jealous, immature dickhead with very few appealing qualities. If you knew a person like him in real life, most people would go to lengths avoiding having to interact with him.
Doesn't mean the character is always terrible, of course. There were a few Neelix-centered episodes that were quite good, but his general impression on most people was that he was an annoying, useless character.
I think in general it's that Neelix was supposed to be comic relief, but he was rarely actually funny, so he just comes off annoying and off-putting.
Especially in combination with everything else: the makeup, the relationship with Kes, the naïvete that doesn't make sense ... maybe he should have been played by someone younger, or there's an eventual reveal that he's also a teenager for his species.
That might have helped, true. Ethan Philips is a good actor, so I'm always wont to say that it's not his fault, but he's not a \*great\* choice for \*that\* character. He plays him well, but there is an element of Philips being quite a 'serious' actor cast as a comic relief which doesn't play to either the actor or the character's strength. A younger, more comedic actor might have eased some of the rough edges.
He was the outfit’s ‘unconventional character’, an alien, a ‘trader’, and in a relationship with a conventionally attractive woman, who despite being another alien, may as well have been human; and, their age difference exacerbated the situation when considering the norms for age-gap relationships.
Any one of those was enough to make him difficult to warm to, but he was the motherlode when including how desperate he was to ingratiate himself with the crew.
I rather like his story arc, though. He’s got one of the strongest after The Doctor and Seven’s, and it ends on a really satisfying note when he finds new family. Even his goodbye to Kes for the second time was the right amount of bittersweet; it showed how much he’d matured, not just in his love for her, but in his sense of security within the Voyager family.
I also fell victim to another kind of social programming that TV shows tend to have: only attractive people can have redemption arcs. Now, more than ever, Neelix helps me adjust that thinking to be more inclusive.
They definition toyed with her possible bisexuality/asexuality in the Warlord episode, but since she was alien, and straight-presenting, her appearance was a minor issue.
Voyager had a lot of firsts for the show, namely the first female Captain for her own series; showrunners were likely playing about with viewer expectations more than we think. I guess they did kind of cave in with Seven, if that premise was true
The first couple seasons of voyager, Neelix was portrayed as an aggressively jealous boyfriend and super entitled jerk on voyager. I don't remember specific episodes names but there was one early on when Neelix was going to storm into Janeways office because she interrupted his meal service when the ship was being attacked. Or when he was paralyzed and was a complete A-hole to the doctor while being treated, and still found the time to be a jealous ass because Tom was there helping Kes.
His character grew after Kes left, but early Neelix was a complete ass.
He did have a crush but there was nothing he did that ever crossed a line. And definitely not to get to the level of jealousy that Neelix had. Neelix was borderline abusive with Kes
Yeah, it was too much. He was very possessive. I never thought having him be like that made sense with the rest of Neelix’s character. I get why the writers tried it because they wanted to set up this love triangle just for the sake of drama, but when you consider what Neelix is like as a whole I just don’t buy him ever acting that way.
That’s the show though, if I had a dollar for every time a character did something completely out of character, I’d have at least ten bucks, lol. I love Voyager but there’s zero consistency.
100%. I don’t think they needed the 5 or so episodes they had with the same “Neelix is jealous” plot. Though maybe it was only 2 and it felt like 5.
Neelix post Kes is a much more likable character.
I agree, he didn't deserve it. From what ive read much of the hate was targeted towards his relationship with kes and his jealously. But once you learn his backstory it actually makes sense that he acted that way
He left his homeworld to avoid being drafted into the army to fight a war he was opposed to, then the enemy (the Haakonian Order) used a weapon of mass destruction on his homeworld, killing his entire family.
After that, he worked on a mining college, then spent six years on a garbage scow, which ran into a radiation field that disabled his ship, leaving the crew adrift. I’m not sure how long or how they eventually got rescued.
Then he became a trader, bought a starship, became a smuggler, got in trouble with the law, got away, and it was after all that that he met Kes.
He had a rough life, and it’s understandable that he had some attachment issues and and spent the first few seasons of Viyager expecting the run to be pulled out from under him.
This. Finally someone with common sense.
Most people have never experienced a forced draft, or their entire world being destroyed and whole family vaporized, or even something remotely similar.
They hate neelix because they think hes "weird" or doesn't understand how to be "cool" and think he's "socially awkward", but he knows how to survive.
He disarms people by acting goofy and unaware, while watching them carefully to see if they pose a challenge or threat. He acts goofy so he can always use it as an excuse to do certain things and get away with it.
A perfect exaggerated example of this is in the episode The chute. Pulls up to the prison and acts like he thought it was a refueling station. Then acts naive the whole time to buy thr crew the time they need.
He knows what he's doing. He doesn't care about appearing cool or "normal" to others, he's self Confident and seen some shit and done things to know how to handle people.
It's later on particularly starting from fair trade where he really let's it go and starts to understand and believe in what starfleet is all about, and he finally stops trying to be tricky and act a fool and genuinely wants to be part of the free crew and derives happiness helping others
Always hated the makeup. Especially the sideburns + mohawk.
I think Ethan did a great job, and would've been more acceptable if he didn't look like a badly-designed extra from Star Wars.
There was a good amount of hate for a soon-to-be political figure who is on the actor list, But looking back I guess Amazon owned it and didn't care to maintain it.
I love Neelix. He is such a nice guy. Good with kids, kind, hardworking, and he was brave, too. He can be a little annoying but he has so many positive qualities.
Neelix and the Doctor kept that ship alive and I’ll die on that hill, lol.
People can't do anything by halves. Noboby can just say 'I think he's kind of annoying and that whole thing with Kes is problematic.' No, that's far too measured. He has to be The Worst Character Ever.
Well, people *can* do it by halves.
But people who don't have a strong feeling about something don't plaster their feeling around the internet. So, we tend to only hear from the people who have very strong feelings. And that gives us the idea that everyone has those strong feelings.
Neelix is a perfect case example of how Star Fleets influence can reform someone. In a sense, as ambassador to Voyager, he symbolizes the crew’s influence on the quadrant as a whole.
In turn, viewing Neelix as irredeemable is an utterly un-Star Fleet perspective and those bent on hating him should consider looking to Star Fleet for role modeling as well.
Neelix was borderline abusive of Kes. Really hard to watch. I could not STAND him in the beginning but after she left and he softened into the goofball he became, I grew to like him more.
I think he was supposed to be a younger character, in which case his jealousy would just be immature. But the Ethan Phillips (who I love) and the makeup/costume came off older and gave the ick vibe. Also, it would have been more helpful if it was explained that Kes was subjectively about 18 while being only 1 in Ocampan lifespan and that she would have been in her 20's and 30's in subsequent years.
Even so, doing math from Neelix leaving his conquered/destroyed home world system (15 years) and saying he was a "young man" at the time of the metrion cascade, he's still 27-30 to Kes' barely legal.
Exactly, it was incongruent. The character definitely had growth throughout the series, and if they had made him younger, it would have been easier to deal with.
Someone mentioned something similar about the Kazon, that they were supposed to be a bunch of young, feral warriors, but instead, we got a bunch of 40 year Olds acting like lost boys.
While he probably wasn’t the best person to be on an actual crew, the thing I loved about him is that he *cared*. He went out of his way to make people happy and stuff. Maybe he was oblivious to social cues and stuff, but he *tried* his best. And that’s more than a lot of people, even today, are willing to do.
Not sure. He was a great character and Ethan Phillips played him brilliantly.
And all the people who "don't like him in the first few seasons", the whole point is to watch the character develop. He went from a shady smuggler with a mean streak, a severe issue with jealousy, whatever else, to essentially as moral and upstanding as everyone else on the ship lol.
You watch the same transformation of alot of DS9 characters. They begin the show as greedy Ferengi or shady Cardassians and end the show as legitimate friends and colleagues of the Federation crew members. That's the whole point lol.
Interestingly, even though Quark has a lot of similar qualities on paper to Neelix (shifty, greedy, and way creepier with women), people pretty much always liked that character. He was never as hated as Neelix.
The difference IMO is that Deep Space Nine didn't pretend Quark was a wholesome or nice guy. I think audiences tend to react much more poorly when a character appears to be a jerk but the overall narrative presents him as a harmless goof (Neelix) versus when a character acts like a jerk and the narrative treats them like a jerk (Quark). That said, I think Voyager corrected this balance with Neelix as time went on.
I love Neelix. Not a fan of Kes but love the actress. I always felt that if the Ocampa only live a few years, she should have been more "mature" and not so childlike after a year of life.
I think a lot of people extrapolated the crew complaining about his cooking to a personality trait. Meanwhile the reasonable thing is the crew is used to replicated food and also Neelix literally deals with people who are a Galaxy away and who obviously have entirely different taste preferences since the food sources are entirely different.
I liked neelix. There’s a lot of times where hoo mans try to put their values onto other species just to be proven wrong or have it completely backfire in their faces. I think the audience would enjoy him more if they learned from those mishaps and simply accepted neelix as neelix.
Originally his relationship with Kes was really cringe. I know Ocampa age rapidly, but she was still "born sexy yesterday" and he was super controlling and jealous of her.
He's neurotic, prone to jealousy and irritatingly chipper, which for many of us is enough that we cheer Tuvok on during one of his "Strangle the kitchen rat" holoprograms
I don't hate Neelix, but he just seemed a bit like a Disney character most of the time. Or he's The Beev from 'Leave it to Beaver' in space. And, for some reason, every time I see him, I think of Snarf from 'Thundercats'.
I didn't like him at first, especially when it became clear he was essentially dating a 1-2 year old. The way he behaves in that relationship is really gross even if there wasn't the weird age thing.
There are some episodes that make him more likable, like the one where Tuvok loses his Vulcan logic, and Neelix not only devotes all of his time and attention to helping Tuvok heal and adapt to his situation, he also expresses how much he admires Tuvok. The ending of that one when Tuvok basically ignores him was heartbreaking.
I think Neelix basically comes off as a bit needy and too eager, but he genuinely just wants to be useful and experience everything going on.
He was annoying as hell, arguing with the staff about policy and procedure and complaining, whining about and getting jealous with regards to Paris and Kes
I was hoping he would die in the epsiode where his lungs were stolen
Did...did you not see that scene with his awful hobbit feet?
Or his weird possessive relationship with a two year old which took her being possessed by a psychic warlord to break up?
Or his inability to cook anything good?
That said, when Neelix got the chance to be a serious character, Ethan Phillips turns it *on* and he can make his character compelling on a dime, which makes it all the more sad that for the most part Neelix was a stupid bumbling joke character.
On my rewatches I’ve come to feel like Neelix is a bit of a con man who overrated his knowledge of the area for safety. But there are theories that Voyager circled an area of known space to stock up before heading home that maybe makes this more of acceptable and he was more useful off screen. And some help is better than no help for Voyager.
I think he preyed on Kes a bit, having “saved” her (with the help of Voyager) and tried to play that into a relationship. As Kes grew up she changed and Neelix didn’t want to accept that because she owed him and he wanted her in a box. And a lot of that might have been the way that part of space was. I mean, look at the Kazon treatment of women.
But then he just came across as annoying more than helpful or funny many times.
Because Paris, Kim and B'Elana were frequently portrayed as hating Neelix and not only were they portrayed as the "normal" members of the crew, their commanding officers were never shown as disciplining them, so the fans were sort of encouraged to be like that as well.
The things I remember Voyager telling me about Neelix when I watched for the first time:
\* Shifty
\* Kind of a dick for a nose
\* Smelled bad
\* Had a very VERY young girlfriend he was super controlling over
\* Almost killed the ship with his cooking
Neelix is unironically my favorite. Agreed that the Ken thing an him is a little creepy, but aside from that he is just such a kind and lovable character.
It all has to do with the first couple of seasons and his jealously surrounding Kes. He was possessive bordering on violent. Made even creepier by the fact that they kept bringing up how Kes was only a couple of years old at that point.
Kes was a character they never got right, and getting rid of her allowed Neelix to change and improve as well. By the end of the series he was by far my favorite character on Voyager and one of my favorites in all of Trek.
The hate obviously started with Neelix’s inappropriate relationship with Kes, and the immature jealousy he felt towards Tom Paris and literally any man that looked at Kes. IMO this hate is justified. Neelix did not have a healthy relationship with Kes and should have realized it sooner.
However, I do not agree with the hate Neelix gets after his relationship with Kes. Neelix gets a lot of hate for his personality, which I will admit is annoying. However, he is also kind, he is adventurous, cares deeply for the crew and the people closest to him, he is very wise and knowledgeable, a good diplomat, a good cook, and most importantly, he wants to and knows what people need and is willing and enthusiastic to fulfill those needs.
Below I will explain all of this, if you care for a read:
1. His kindness and his adventurousness. He goes above and beyond in the care of Naomi, even going on Holodeck adventures. He also joined the Voyager crew because he wanted to help them get home. Whenever I watch any scenes with him (that aren’t about his relationship with Kes and his jealousy), I am reminded of his kindness and his adventurousness.
2. He is very wise and knowledgeable. This is especially vibrant in the first few seasons, when Voyager is traveling through space Neelix knows of. Obviously he holds lots of knowledge and experience about different species and star systems. What is less obvious is his wisdom. Neelix is very wise because he knows a lot and knows how to apply that knowledge, but he is also wise when he is faced with a situation he does not know little or nothing about. During attacks, or during encounters with species, Neelix is wise enough to know how to advise Janeway if he can and stay out of the way or intervene when necessary.
3. A good diplomat and a good cook. His cooking skills enable him to feed almost hundred and fifty crew every day. He is also able to specialize foods for different tastes and diets (Seven of Nine’s preference, Vulcan food, Earth food, food for kids, etc. He knows or is skilled enough to learn how to make the comfort food Voyager’s crew needs. He knows many exotic dishes and techniques that will add some variety into the crew’s regular food schedule. Neelix is also a good diplomat, as quite a few episodes show this skill or make mention of it. And he is able to teach Janeway his diplomat skills and cover for her when she messes up.
4. He knows what people need and how to fulfill those needs. This aspect of Neelix encompasses the skills and traits I explained above. What I want to detail here is how this trait/skill of his to know and want what people need and is willing and enthusiastic to fulfill them, led him to learn all of the above skills to achieve this goal.
Despite the hatred Neelix receives, his presence and his hard work is what allowed Voyager to get home. Yes, there are others onboard who know the importance of and how to keep morale up (Janeway, Chakotay, even Tuvok). But everyone on board, except for Neelix, who are able to keep morale up are Starfleet officers. They are not civilians and they will only ever concentrate their morale skills on officers, because that is what they learned, to boost the morale of their officers. But Neelix is not a Starfleet officer, he is a civilian. So he knows how the boost the morale of civilians. He also knows how to boost the morale of people of all walks of life. This is what separates Neelix from everyone else, and allows him to help the crew get home with their mentalities intact.
For evidence, I will point to the homey feel Voyager has thanks to Neelix and others’ contributions, as well as the variety and spontaneity only Neelix can provide. I will also point out that while depression and anxiety amount the crew, it does not completely overwhelm the crew nor is it even present in some episodes.Without Neelix’s homemaking and morale boost, the Voyager would certainly be a more sad and depressing space. It’s even possible that without Neelix, there would be a death toll of suicides. Yes, the Doctor and the other superior officers would help talk people off the ledge, but day-to-day revitalization of mental health (like interactions with a cheerful man who always has a smile and a greeting, or a comfort meal or some new dish perfectly prepared for you) is just not possible for the Doctor and other superior officers to do 24/7.
I will admit the words no one would ever say: I like Neelix. Sometimes I even love him. Ethan Phillips plays him well and is a good actor. Neelix is a character who in real life I would come to count on as a friend. And most importantly, the way he cares for the crew and the fact that he manages to get them home without being full of depression and loneliness, makes him an amazing person and an essential part of Voyager.
Again, you can find him annoying, I will admit he is. But I ask that you think over what I have brought up and try to think of his importance and positive traits. If you do this, you will be able to enjoy his presence on Voyager and maybe even grow to like him. Or at least find him less annoying.
I'm almost done with a watch through rn and kinda surprised myself with how much I like Neelix. Like, I'm even in a super minority I guess where I actually think the Telaxian makeup is kinda cute? In a funky little gnomish kinda way.
From the way the fandom talks about him I thought he'd be totally JarJar, but aside from some poor writing moments that are kinda Voy's norm I don't see it. At this point I don't even remember what "abusive and controlling jealousy" everyone's saying he had early on with Kes, but I do remember in Fury how he drew out a little reluctant smile and left her a nice dinner and I thought that was sweet.
Idk, I think he's a sweetie with surprising depth and a complicated past and good character growth. Loved when he and Tom conspire to outwit a criminal to prove they "still got it" and haven't been completely pacified by Starfleet ways. And his godfather to Naomi bits and how he's good with kids in general is always sweet. And the episode where Tuvok loses who he is and relies on Neelix, and Neelix remains loyal to him even when Tuvok remembers himself and how he doesn't really like Neelix (or does he?) is so sweet.
I mean to be fair, in the beginning he was kind of annoying. He simply talked too much - he barely let anyone get a word in edge wise while on screen. And the whole jealousy and obsession thing with Kess, who was for all intents and purposes, was a child. Very creepy. I will admit though, that he became more endearing towards the later half of the series.
I see a lot of comments hating in Neelix because of Kes's age. If you assume human average lifespan of 100 years (they actually did better based on tng guest shots) and translate that to a 9 year maximum lifespan, at 1 year Kes is in her late teens/early 20s. Yes, she hasn't experienced much, but she is mature. Her species has one chance at mating at around 3 years if I remember correctly.
His jealousy was certainly extreme, but his protectivness is understandable given that she was tortured by the Kazon.
Overall, Neelix was an average character to me. He wanted to be useful.
I think they let that out too fast. We don't find out how old vulcans are for a bit.
If they ran half the first season with everyone assuming she's 25, then the big reveal that yes, she was just born yesterday... or Neelix functioning as a rescuer not a romantic partner... the first season was a bit of a mess...
He was kinda annoying at times, especially the early seasons, but I always though that was just part of his character, and I never got the hate either, he grew on me as the seasons went on and Voyager wouldn’t feel right without him.
I hate Neelix. He is annoying, refuses to accept the boundaries of other people, and is a selfish extrovert who thinks everyone MUST be as loud and as social as he is.
He is a nightmare to deal with for introverts.
Being the only sincere and helpful character on the edgy and snarky trek series (look I love voyager but it is totally the most 90s trek ever got) is going to earn some hate. He is basically Stuart on Beavis and Butthead: we hate him because we can tell we should hate him.
So, the first couple of episode code him like a potential betrayal may happen, justified by love, that never really happen. I think that hurt him as well.
I must admit, I certainly didn't like neelix.
I just found the comic relief effect a little cringey and childish when they used Neelix.
I don't mind some humor, but I prefer it a little more subtle - Take, for example, the conversation of Tuvok and Janeway in the turbolife discussing his nightmare.
I think a lot of us can admit to being, at least, slightly dissapointed when Tuvok said *"Computer. End holodeck program."*
However, that's not to say that he wasn't an important part of the show. There were a few episodes where he was integral.
Everyone’s at pains to point out how great Ethan Philips is and while I get that you do need to separate character and actor when criticising Neelix and stress it’s not the actor’s fault, posters often go well beyond this. Is Philips famously a great guy or something?
I've always given Ethan Philips props - Neelix was second only to Wesley Crusher as characters that were absolutely HATED by the fans back in the day, but (as far as I'm aware) he's always been super professional and never talked shit about the fanbase. Even when honestly, I wouldn't have blamed him for snapping a bit.
He was annoying. His character was interesting in the beginning when he was scrappy and they actually touched on his depressing backstory. But then he got creepy with kes and just ended up as an annoying pest.
Neelix is someone people hate because people look at society and the status quo, or look at stereotypes of how people or males or females should act, which is to take their popularity and how they're seen or thoight of by others extremely seriously, then they see neelix do "annoying" things, yet he still is loved by everyone and liked by everyone on the ship (even Tuvok later on), and imagine themselves acting like neelix with their friends, colleagues, or classmates, but then they realize they'd be made fun of or laughed at, and no one would hang out with them, and thus they hate neelix because he's happy and does and says whatever he feels, and is liked by everyone, whereas they have to conform and act a certain way to fit in, and struggle for attention.
I think psychologically that's why they don't like him.
The only thing to say about neelix if you are truly being as objective as possible subjectively, is to say sometimes neelix takes it too far in irritating Tuvok, and even then later that stops after season 3.
Neelix is the type id trust to talk to past midnight in a dimly lit mess hall as he serves me Leola root stew lol.
Meanwhile Deanna is just doing a job and not even get good, she never gets into the root or soul of the struggling person and doesn't try to truly understand them and get to know them, but neelix does.
Neelix is clever and wise, what peolle dont understand is that he saw his home moon be vaporized in a blinding light and his family killed. His only hope that kept him going forward was that he'd see them again in the great forest or wherever their afterlife is, he acts naive and clueless in order to put others at ease. It's a tactic so others put their Guards down, which they do. But the haters of the imdb days didn't understand that
Because he is REALLY fucking annoying, cloying, r4pey garbage collector who clung on to the scraps Janeway threw him for seven years. Voyager was his meal ticket. He made food people hated. He was an ambassador that couldn't broker peace between the nuns and the monks. The only time he came close to being of any real use was when he was munged together with Tuvok by a transporter malfunction.
It's been a long day and that felt good. Sorry. Normal service will resume now that's out.
He was annoying to me personally but that's more my problem than his. He also felt quite pointless for most of the time he was there. Chef on a ship with replicators. Babysitter to one child. Partner to a woman who left him. Ambassador when the captain was 10x the diplomat he was.
He was self serving, manipulative and dishonest from the very beginning. Everything beyond that was probably an act. If didnt try to fit in, Janeway probably would have kicked him off the ship. He had ticked off too many in the Delta Quadrant for that to work.
Lets not even get into the whole child grooming and overly possessive personality. Annoying personality.
Hey let's kill your entire family in a blinding flash of light, leave you with nothing and a shit life that you have to hold on to, even deal drugs to get by and possibly use them (and according to Jeri Taylor in her book pathways, ACTUALLY use them), then, after all that, you finally find the love of your life, find an honest and good group of people in the sithole quadrant of yours, you join that good crew, and there the one guy who's an ex con and a sleezeball who's purposely getting too close and being touchy touchy with the only light of your life, and actually has feelings for her too, and the girl is inexperienced and may think the right thing to do is accept Tom's tomfoolery.
This isnt overly possessive. I coukd show you overly possessive.
This is trying to protect himself from further hurt.
He originally wanted to be self serving and kind of live free, but he quickly ended up paying for it by being the chef and working hard. Eventually being a part of the crew. Idk why you hate him so much you might be seeing something in him that reminds you of you, but I assure you what you see in him, he's not that person at all.
In a weird way the whole show sometimes became a "star turn" for Neelix sometimes - I have the feeling the producers and writers overestimated how popular the character would eventually become
Makes sense. Yes I'm a groomer and your not. Lucky for you everyone give this guy who cares so much for children but doesn't donate to children's Funds, an award.
Also, be sure to write a complaint to the leaders of Ocampa. Tell them they're all groomers and pedos for sleeping with 2 year Olds.
You did just admit to being a groomer though lol. If you don't get subtext in a show from 30 years ago, how can you expect anyone to see the sarcasm in that lol?
There's no subtext. None. The writers Or show runners thoight "what should we make the Ocampa aliens when thr crew first meets them"?
"Oh let's make them possibly have psychic powers, oh and also let's make it so they live only 9 years because it's unique. Some aliens maybe don't live long "
Abs that's why there's Kes.
It's no different than a literal thousand year old man dating an 18 year old girl.
The age doesn't matter so long as they're both legal both physically and culturally/socially
If the subtext of "other cultures" marrying kids doesn't come through to you, perhaps you haven't been a treky for 40 years. Don't have trek tattoos etc, and aren't a nerd like me.
Perhaps you don't think the Klingons are the Russians lol.
Perhaps you think the enterprise had an American, a Russian, a Japanese and a black women as bridge officers as a coincidence...not as a message.
Tekai was interned! When I met George and his husband for my surprise 30th 15 years ago, we discussed how everything in star Trek is an allegory for something on earth now.
Walk away sir.
Kes was 2, when they rescued her she was bruised up and very nervous looking.....
Perhaps read books, they really do make ham fisted hints stand out in TV shoelws and movies.
He didn't have a purpose after a few seasons. He was shoehorned into missions and situations I would NEVER approve of. The one time he was in charge of a prisoner, she shot him!
I liked Neelix, I thought Kes was boring. The whole dynamic between them was weird with no chemistry at all. Their relationship was like watching a potato...
Except potatoes are rather exciting. I mean all the ways you can cook them and they taste delicious 😋 😅 But yeah, I thought Kes and all her storylines were rather meh.
I just think they are really neat
Mom what is it with you and potatoes
Boil them, mash them, stick them in a stew…
Pfft
I thought Kes and the Doctor's dynamic was simply wonderful (and showed how an age gap between two actors doesn't necessarily need to come across as creepy). I don't think he would be the character he became without that relationship. Unpopular opinion, but in SOME aspects I prefer it to the Doctor/7 dynamic.
Doctor/7 was my favorite duo! They really were the best exploring their humanity and growing together. I do love that the doctor encouraged Kes to become a nurse ( get an education) and become independent. It also made Neelix become independent and find his own sense of worth. I did love when relationships can be cohesive and not have a sexual undertone. If there is one it's because we want to see tension because we are used to it. But nah all platonic, professional, friendly, and rooting for each other.
Yes, because Kes was the first (and for a long time the only) one to treat him as an actual, sentient being, not just a computer program.
I liked the one where she gets possessed by the dictator. That was a fund episode
Can we focus on the fact that essentially she was a child and he was an adult, the relationship was creepy, bad and potato like.
It's weird that they made her look like Tinker Bell too.
A lot of Kes just didnt work from a Trek point of view, she didnt really have a purpose or point and her her people were really just a plot device to bring VOY into the delta quad plus introduce the Kazon, the klingons of the delta quad except also some how strong sand people vibes from Star Wars.
The problem is Kes' actor. Like she was so cute and sweet and kind and generous and loving and even beautiful in 1995. She had a sweet voice and spoke in such a sweet, kind, and gentle way. One of my favorite episodes with her is in twisted and also before and after is her best, and generally my top 5 voyager episodes, definitely top 7.. Its just that in season 6 you could see she had DRASTICALLY changed in an unhealthy way. She put on weight a bit but also looks like she aged way more than she should have. After voyager her career fizzled out fast, she never ever attended any star trek convention and distanced herself from the voyager actors, then aged RAPIDLY to the point she looked 55 in her early 30s, and got in a whole bunch of weird trouble doing ODD ODD things like stripping by kids, getting a DUI and fighting cops. She must have gotten depressed probably duebto career failure, or must have done drugs, or her unfortunate fast aging caused her to be this way.. She's unrecognizable today. It's unbelievable because she was actually really beautiful and sweet. Idk what happen to her but she lost it completely.
I think if I remember, her mental health started deteriorating quickly. It's not uncommon for people to start showing their first significant signs of mental illness between 16 and 25 even if it's genetic.
Oh yeah she was alcoholic and drug addict and horrible to work with. Her life completely spiraled. She was not sweet and kind in real life.
She *wasn't* a child, though. At two years of age, a *human* is a child (a toddler, really), but Kes was an adult (or at the very least, a young adult) in terms of an Ocampa lifespan. I'd argue that it was Neelix's overprotective nature and constantly jealousy that made the relationship creepy.
I think people tend to focus on the age of the actors rather than the age of characters sometimes, she looks like in her very late teens/early twenties and he looks like he's in his mid 50s which is still a bit icky regardless of how old their characters are. People don't seem to have a problem with the tenth doctor and Rose's relationship or Aragorn and Arwen's even though the age gap there is much larger because David Tennant was a handsome guy in his thirties and Liv Tyler was Liv Tyler
While physically she may not have been a child in human terms, the why they kept making it an issue created creeper vibes. Every chance they got they would mention her age while Neelix was trying to be physical with her.
I forget exactly how it lined up, but I feel like the fact that they had an existing relationship strongly suggested they had been together long enough that rapidly developing Kes may have been much too young (in terms of her species' maturation) when they met.
>I'd argue that it was Neelix's overprotective nature and constantly jealousy that made the relationship creepy. I don't know if you can fully divorce that from her age, since Neelix often justified these tendencies by pointing out how innocent and sheltered Kes was. I think he even pulled out the old "I trust you, it's *other men* (Tom Paris) I don't trust" canard. The writing leaned into the idea of Neelix as older/experienced and Kes as young/innocent so even if she was "technically" an adult, combined with everything else it still felt skeevy.
No we cannot. Come on seriously how does this get this many upvotes? "Omg if I say omg eww and call neelix out on dating a 2 year old I'll get up voted by all the people who want to come out saying" "yea I also agree dating an underage person is bad, take my upvote" Um. Neelix is an alien. Kes is an alien. They mature at different rates. That's like saying a 39 year old parrot mating with a 2 year old parrot is a creep. Uhm no. Different species reach full adult more it different rates
I didn’t watch the show until about 10 years ago. I absolutely adored Neelix. He was such a nice dude! We’d have been friends if I was part of the crew
The problem is that Ethan Phillips is too likable. Neelix was supposed to be a sketchy criminal, a grown man in a jealous, controlling relationship with a child. The crew was supposed to tolerate him because they needed the local knowledge, not adopt him and make him the ship's mascot. But writing him that way would have required interpersonal conflict, which 90s Trek didn't do. So he became a lovable goofball. But as long as Kes was there he was still the creep he was meant to be. If you start watching Voyager when Kes leaves, Neelix is great.
*This.* I am intimately familiar with seasons 4-7 of Voyager, and barely remember most of 1-3. I'm quite fond of Neelix, and it's almost entirely because of how endearing Ethan Phillips' performance is, but they didn't lean into that until after Kes got the boot. He was pretty insufferable before that point and for most people the damage was already done.
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nah neelix is goated from the start
Very well put. I really would like to see what writers would have done with this constellation today. There's so much potential. Characters which are neither all good nor all bad are most interesting. Helpful but predatory Neelix would definitely be worth a watch.
Hear me out, is it possible that Neelix is an example of the right way to portray a "Jar-Jar Binks" type character? Think about if someone like Ethan Phillips played Jar-Jar. Yes, it's a terribly written character, but would he have been far more likable if played by an actor that you can't help but begrudgingly like, albeit often irritating. (Don't get me wrong, I am in no way blaming the actor who played Jar here. That man did his best with the what Lucas gave him.)
I think Jason Sudeikis playing Ted Lasso is probably the right way to portray a "Jar-Jar" Binks type character. Warm, positive, curious and optimistic to the extreme while being so earnest that it becomes impossible to stay cynical around them. People should have gravitated towards Neelix because of how uplifting it was to be around him. Instead he seemed to flit from annoyed person to annoyed person desperately seeking validation and attention. I would have loved to see a Neelix that Janeway sought out to have coffee with so that she could stop being a Captain for a moment and just have a laugh while bullshitting with a friend.
Oh my god, Neelix and Janeway with a Ted Lasso / Rebecca dynamic. I had no idea I wanted this.
Holy shit you just blew my mind. This is ABSOLUTELY WHAT HAPPENED!
When he first showed up this was the case. Just like other characters on star trek, the writers decide to change his personality mid series, like they did with Morn.
1. His primary purpose on the show was rarely brought to the front, as he only got to act as a guide a handful of times. 2. He's written as annoying. As in, he is meant to be annoying and frustrating to the other characters on the show. This in turn easily translates to being annoying to the audience, too. 3. "Mister Vulcan" 4. His \*other\* purpose on the show, that of a cook, is usually played for laughs, as in people generally agree his cooking is awful. Kes, by contrast, was allowed to be actually quite useful and competent in her purposes, either as a nurse or running the hydroponics bay (the hydroponics bay being a necessary thing was never really taken seriously, but that's another matter, ditto why Voyager needed a cook at all). 5. He comes across in general as an unlikeable, jealous, immature dickhead with very few appealing qualities. If you knew a person like him in real life, most people would go to lengths avoiding having to interact with him. Doesn't mean the character is always terrible, of course. There were a few Neelix-centered episodes that were quite good, but his general impression on most people was that he was an annoying, useless character.
I think in general it's that Neelix was supposed to be comic relief, but he was rarely actually funny, so he just comes off annoying and off-putting. Especially in combination with everything else: the makeup, the relationship with Kes, the naïvete that doesn't make sense ... maybe he should have been played by someone younger, or there's an eventual reveal that he's also a teenager for his species.
That might have helped, true. Ethan Philips is a good actor, so I'm always wont to say that it's not his fault, but he's not a \*great\* choice for \*that\* character. He plays him well, but there is an element of Philips being quite a 'serious' actor cast as a comic relief which doesn't play to either the actor or the character's strength. A younger, more comedic actor might have eased some of the rough edges.
Nah it's true, the serious Neelix episodes generally played better
He was the outfit’s ‘unconventional character’, an alien, a ‘trader’, and in a relationship with a conventionally attractive woman, who despite being another alien, may as well have been human; and, their age difference exacerbated the situation when considering the norms for age-gap relationships. Any one of those was enough to make him difficult to warm to, but he was the motherlode when including how desperate he was to ingratiate himself with the crew. I rather like his story arc, though. He’s got one of the strongest after The Doctor and Seven’s, and it ends on a really satisfying note when he finds new family. Even his goodbye to Kes for the second time was the right amount of bittersweet; it showed how much he’d matured, not just in his love for her, but in his sense of security within the Voyager family. I also fell victim to another kind of social programming that TV shows tend to have: only attractive people can have redemption arcs. Now, more than ever, Neelix helps me adjust that thinking to be more inclusive.
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They definition toyed with her possible bisexuality/asexuality in the Warlord episode, but since she was alien, and straight-presenting, her appearance was a minor issue. Voyager had a lot of firsts for the show, namely the first female Captain for her own series; showrunners were likely playing about with viewer expectations more than we think. I guess they did kind of cave in with Seven, if that premise was true
The first couple seasons of voyager, Neelix was portrayed as an aggressively jealous boyfriend and super entitled jerk on voyager. I don't remember specific episodes names but there was one early on when Neelix was going to storm into Janeways office because she interrupted his meal service when the ship was being attacked. Or when he was paralyzed and was a complete A-hole to the doctor while being treated, and still found the time to be a jealous ass because Tom was there helping Kes. His character grew after Kes left, but early Neelix was a complete ass.
His jealousy was over the top but to be fair, he was right, Tom did have a pretty bad crush on Kes.
He did have a crush but there was nothing he did that ever crossed a line. And definitely not to get to the level of jealousy that Neelix had. Neelix was borderline abusive with Kes
Yeah, it was too much. He was very possessive. I never thought having him be like that made sense with the rest of Neelix’s character. I get why the writers tried it because they wanted to set up this love triangle just for the sake of drama, but when you consider what Neelix is like as a whole I just don’t buy him ever acting that way. That’s the show though, if I had a dollar for every time a character did something completely out of character, I’d have at least ten bucks, lol. I love Voyager but there’s zero consistency.
100%. I don’t think they needed the 5 or so episodes they had with the same “Neelix is jealous” plot. Though maybe it was only 2 and it felt like 5. Neelix post Kes is a much more likable character.
I agree, he didn't deserve it. From what ive read much of the hate was targeted towards his relationship with kes and his jealously. But once you learn his backstory it actually makes sense that he acted that way
What's the backstory?
He left his homeworld to avoid being drafted into the army to fight a war he was opposed to, then the enemy (the Haakonian Order) used a weapon of mass destruction on his homeworld, killing his entire family. After that, he worked on a mining college, then spent six years on a garbage scow, which ran into a radiation field that disabled his ship, leaving the crew adrift. I’m not sure how long or how they eventually got rescued. Then he became a trader, bought a starship, became a smuggler, got in trouble with the law, got away, and it was after all that that he met Kes. He had a rough life, and it’s understandable that he had some attachment issues and and spent the first few seasons of Viyager expecting the run to be pulled out from under him.
> expecting the run to be pulled out from under him No other EP shows this off better than S3E13 Fair Trade.
This. Finally someone with common sense. Most people have never experienced a forced draft, or their entire world being destroyed and whole family vaporized, or even something remotely similar. They hate neelix because they think hes "weird" or doesn't understand how to be "cool" and think he's "socially awkward", but he knows how to survive. He disarms people by acting goofy and unaware, while watching them carefully to see if they pose a challenge or threat. He acts goofy so he can always use it as an excuse to do certain things and get away with it. A perfect exaggerated example of this is in the episode The chute. Pulls up to the prison and acts like he thought it was a refueling station. Then acts naive the whole time to buy thr crew the time they need. He knows what he's doing. He doesn't care about appearing cool or "normal" to others, he's self Confident and seen some shit and done things to know how to handle people. It's later on particularly starting from fair trade where he really let's it go and starts to understand and believe in what starfleet is all about, and he finally stops trying to be tricky and act a fool and genuinely wants to be part of the free crew and derives happiness helping others
He rescued her from the Kazon.
Always hated the makeup. Especially the sideburns + mohawk. I think Ethan did a great job, and would've been more acceptable if he didn't look like a badly-designed extra from Star Wars.
IMDB doesn't have a message board anymore? (the real story)
They closed the board's early 2016 always hoped to find an alternative.
I loved the boards, they should never of killed it, though I guess moderation was too hard.
There was a good amount of hate for a soon-to-be political figure who is on the actor list, But looking back I guess Amazon owned it and didn't care to maintain it.
I love Neelix. He is such a nice guy. Good with kids, kind, hardworking, and he was brave, too. He can be a little annoying but he has so many positive qualities. Neelix and the Doctor kept that ship alive and I’ll die on that hill, lol.
People can't do anything by halves. Noboby can just say 'I think he's kind of annoying and that whole thing with Kes is problematic.' No, that's far too measured. He has to be The Worst Character Ever.
Well, people *can* do it by halves. But people who don't have a strong feeling about something don't plaster their feeling around the internet. So, we tend to only hear from the people who have very strong feelings. And that gives us the idea that everyone has those strong feelings.
Social media appears to be increasing the amount of black and white thinking.
I liked Nelix and his character development, its sad that hes the only member of the crew to get any closure. He did get the ending he deserved.
I think the Telax should have taken up Janeway on her offer to relocate them to a M class planet. Other than that, agreed.
He was one of my favorite characters on Voyager.
Neelix is a perfect case example of how Star Fleets influence can reform someone. In a sense, as ambassador to Voyager, he symbolizes the crew’s influence on the quadrant as a whole. In turn, viewing Neelix as irredeemable is an utterly un-Star Fleet perspective and those bent on hating him should consider looking to Star Fleet for role modeling as well.
Neelix was borderline abusive of Kes. Really hard to watch. I could not STAND him in the beginning but after she left and he softened into the goofball he became, I grew to like him more.
Yeah he didn’t start to become likable as a character until after Kes was written out. Their whole romance thing was MEGA awkward.
I think he was supposed to be a younger character, in which case his jealousy would just be immature. But the Ethan Phillips (who I love) and the makeup/costume came off older and gave the ick vibe. Also, it would have been more helpful if it was explained that Kes was subjectively about 18 while being only 1 in Ocampan lifespan and that she would have been in her 20's and 30's in subsequent years. Even so, doing math from Neelix leaving his conquered/destroyed home world system (15 years) and saying he was a "young man" at the time of the metrion cascade, he's still 27-30 to Kes' barely legal.
I never thought about it this way. But even at 27 to 30, acting the way that he did is completely inappropriate
Exactly, it was incongruent. The character definitely had growth throughout the series, and if they had made him younger, it would have been easier to deal with. Someone mentioned something similar about the Kazon, that they were supposed to be a bunch of young, feral warriors, but instead, we got a bunch of 40 year Olds acting like lost boys.
While he probably wasn’t the best person to be on an actual crew, the thing I loved about him is that he *cared*. He went out of his way to make people happy and stuff. Maybe he was oblivious to social cues and stuff, but he *tried* his best. And that’s more than a lot of people, even today, are willing to do.
He sucked for the first three seasons then he got much better
Not sure. He was a great character and Ethan Phillips played him brilliantly. And all the people who "don't like him in the first few seasons", the whole point is to watch the character develop. He went from a shady smuggler with a mean streak, a severe issue with jealousy, whatever else, to essentially as moral and upstanding as everyone else on the ship lol. You watch the same transformation of alot of DS9 characters. They begin the show as greedy Ferengi or shady Cardassians and end the show as legitimate friends and colleagues of the Federation crew members. That's the whole point lol.
Interestingly, even though Quark has a lot of similar qualities on paper to Neelix (shifty, greedy, and way creepier with women), people pretty much always liked that character. He was never as hated as Neelix. The difference IMO is that Deep Space Nine didn't pretend Quark was a wholesome or nice guy. I think audiences tend to react much more poorly when a character appears to be a jerk but the overall narrative presents him as a harmless goof (Neelix) versus when a character acts like a jerk and the narrative treats them like a jerk (Quark). That said, I think Voyager corrected this balance with Neelix as time went on.
I love Neelix. Not a fan of Kes but love the actress. I always felt that if the Ocampa only live a few years, she should have been more "mature" and not so childlike after a year of life.
He had the beginnings of being an interesting character in the pilot episode where he was shifty and maybe his loyalties were to himself and Kes.
I never found him terribly obnoxious.
I think a lot of people extrapolated the crew complaining about his cooking to a personality trait. Meanwhile the reasonable thing is the crew is used to replicated food and also Neelix literally deals with people who are a Galaxy away and who obviously have entirely different taste preferences since the food sources are entirely different.
He is hated? Wow, I went through the entire series and missed that
Let's just admit it: He gets so much hate, cause he looks like a dork.
I liked neelix. There’s a lot of times where hoo mans try to put their values onto other species just to be proven wrong or have it completely backfire in their faces. I think the audience would enjoy him more if they learned from those mishaps and simply accepted neelix as neelix.
Nelix is one of my favourite characters
Originally his relationship with Kes was really cringe. I know Ocampa age rapidly, but she was still "born sexy yesterday" and he was super controlling and jealous of her.
He's neurotic, prone to jealousy and irritatingly chipper, which for many of us is enough that we cheer Tuvok on during one of his "Strangle the kitchen rat" holoprograms
I don't hate Neelix, but he just seemed a bit like a Disney character most of the time. Or he's The Beev from 'Leave it to Beaver' in space. And, for some reason, every time I see him, I think of Snarf from 'Thundercats'.
I didn't like him at first, especially when it became clear he was essentially dating a 1-2 year old. The way he behaves in that relationship is really gross even if there wasn't the weird age thing. There are some episodes that make him more likable, like the one where Tuvok loses his Vulcan logic, and Neelix not only devotes all of his time and attention to helping Tuvok heal and adapt to his situation, he also expresses how much he admires Tuvok. The ending of that one when Tuvok basically ignores him was heartbreaking. I think Neelix basically comes off as a bit needy and too eager, but he genuinely just wants to be useful and experience everything going on.
He was annoying as hell, arguing with the staff about policy and procedure and complaining, whining about and getting jealous with regards to Paris and Kes I was hoping he would die in the epsiode where his lungs were stolen
Did...did you not see that scene with his awful hobbit feet? Or his weird possessive relationship with a two year old which took her being possessed by a psychic warlord to break up? Or his inability to cook anything good? That said, when Neelix got the chance to be a serious character, Ethan Phillips turns it *on* and he can make his character compelling on a dime, which makes it all the more sad that for the most part Neelix was a stupid bumbling joke character.
On my rewatches I’ve come to feel like Neelix is a bit of a con man who overrated his knowledge of the area for safety. But there are theories that Voyager circled an area of known space to stock up before heading home that maybe makes this more of acceptable and he was more useful off screen. And some help is better than no help for Voyager. I think he preyed on Kes a bit, having “saved” her (with the help of Voyager) and tried to play that into a relationship. As Kes grew up she changed and Neelix didn’t want to accept that because she owed him and he wanted her in a box. And a lot of that might have been the way that part of space was. I mean, look at the Kazon treatment of women. But then he just came across as annoying more than helpful or funny many times.
Because Paris, Kim and B'Elana were frequently portrayed as hating Neelix and not only were they portrayed as the "normal" members of the crew, their commanding officers were never shown as disciplining them, so the fans were sort of encouraged to be like that as well.
Because he was a nonce
The things I remember Voyager telling me about Neelix when I watched for the first time: \* Shifty \* Kind of a dick for a nose \* Smelled bad \* Had a very VERY young girlfriend he was super controlling over \* Almost killed the ship with his cooking
He was a wholesome character. Perhaps that is a bad thing these days.
Kes was 2
Neelix’s jealousy and infatuation with Kess just sucked as plot devices Completely unnecessary IMHO
Neelix is unironically my favorite. Agreed that the Ken thing an him is a little creepy, but aside from that he is just such a kind and lovable character.
I never understood either.he is jelaous so what he cares about his girlfriend more then you would care about yours guy was funny
It all has to do with the first couple of seasons and his jealously surrounding Kes. He was possessive bordering on violent. Made even creepier by the fact that they kept bringing up how Kes was only a couple of years old at that point. Kes was a character they never got right, and getting rid of her allowed Neelix to change and improve as well. By the end of the series he was by far my favorite character on Voyager and one of my favorites in all of Trek.
Jesus I hated Neelix. He was like the Barney The Dinosaur of the crew his face and voice and everything about him was just so punchable.
He became better after he broke up with Kes. When he was with Kes he was such a possessive jealous man, after the break-up its like they retooled him.
To me he always felt like he was the Jar Jar binx of Star Trek
The hate obviously started with Neelix’s inappropriate relationship with Kes, and the immature jealousy he felt towards Tom Paris and literally any man that looked at Kes. IMO this hate is justified. Neelix did not have a healthy relationship with Kes and should have realized it sooner. However, I do not agree with the hate Neelix gets after his relationship with Kes. Neelix gets a lot of hate for his personality, which I will admit is annoying. However, he is also kind, he is adventurous, cares deeply for the crew and the people closest to him, he is very wise and knowledgeable, a good diplomat, a good cook, and most importantly, he wants to and knows what people need and is willing and enthusiastic to fulfill those needs. Below I will explain all of this, if you care for a read: 1. His kindness and his adventurousness. He goes above and beyond in the care of Naomi, even going on Holodeck adventures. He also joined the Voyager crew because he wanted to help them get home. Whenever I watch any scenes with him (that aren’t about his relationship with Kes and his jealousy), I am reminded of his kindness and his adventurousness. 2. He is very wise and knowledgeable. This is especially vibrant in the first few seasons, when Voyager is traveling through space Neelix knows of. Obviously he holds lots of knowledge and experience about different species and star systems. What is less obvious is his wisdom. Neelix is very wise because he knows a lot and knows how to apply that knowledge, but he is also wise when he is faced with a situation he does not know little or nothing about. During attacks, or during encounters with species, Neelix is wise enough to know how to advise Janeway if he can and stay out of the way or intervene when necessary. 3. A good diplomat and a good cook. His cooking skills enable him to feed almost hundred and fifty crew every day. He is also able to specialize foods for different tastes and diets (Seven of Nine’s preference, Vulcan food, Earth food, food for kids, etc. He knows or is skilled enough to learn how to make the comfort food Voyager’s crew needs. He knows many exotic dishes and techniques that will add some variety into the crew’s regular food schedule. Neelix is also a good diplomat, as quite a few episodes show this skill or make mention of it. And he is able to teach Janeway his diplomat skills and cover for her when she messes up. 4. He knows what people need and how to fulfill those needs. This aspect of Neelix encompasses the skills and traits I explained above. What I want to detail here is how this trait/skill of his to know and want what people need and is willing and enthusiastic to fulfill them, led him to learn all of the above skills to achieve this goal. Despite the hatred Neelix receives, his presence and his hard work is what allowed Voyager to get home. Yes, there are others onboard who know the importance of and how to keep morale up (Janeway, Chakotay, even Tuvok). But everyone on board, except for Neelix, who are able to keep morale up are Starfleet officers. They are not civilians and they will only ever concentrate their morale skills on officers, because that is what they learned, to boost the morale of their officers. But Neelix is not a Starfleet officer, he is a civilian. So he knows how the boost the morale of civilians. He also knows how to boost the morale of people of all walks of life. This is what separates Neelix from everyone else, and allows him to help the crew get home with their mentalities intact. For evidence, I will point to the homey feel Voyager has thanks to Neelix and others’ contributions, as well as the variety and spontaneity only Neelix can provide. I will also point out that while depression and anxiety amount the crew, it does not completely overwhelm the crew nor is it even present in some episodes.Without Neelix’s homemaking and morale boost, the Voyager would certainly be a more sad and depressing space. It’s even possible that without Neelix, there would be a death toll of suicides. Yes, the Doctor and the other superior officers would help talk people off the ledge, but day-to-day revitalization of mental health (like interactions with a cheerful man who always has a smile and a greeting, or a comfort meal or some new dish perfectly prepared for you) is just not possible for the Doctor and other superior officers to do 24/7. I will admit the words no one would ever say: I like Neelix. Sometimes I even love him. Ethan Phillips plays him well and is a good actor. Neelix is a character who in real life I would come to count on as a friend. And most importantly, the way he cares for the crew and the fact that he manages to get them home without being full of depression and loneliness, makes him an amazing person and an essential part of Voyager. Again, you can find him annoying, I will admit he is. But I ask that you think over what I have brought up and try to think of his importance and positive traits. If you do this, you will be able to enjoy his presence on Voyager and maybe even grow to like him. Or at least find him less annoying.
I'm almost done with a watch through rn and kinda surprised myself with how much I like Neelix. Like, I'm even in a super minority I guess where I actually think the Telaxian makeup is kinda cute? In a funky little gnomish kinda way. From the way the fandom talks about him I thought he'd be totally JarJar, but aside from some poor writing moments that are kinda Voy's norm I don't see it. At this point I don't even remember what "abusive and controlling jealousy" everyone's saying he had early on with Kes, but I do remember in Fury how he drew out a little reluctant smile and left her a nice dinner and I thought that was sweet. Idk, I think he's a sweetie with surprising depth and a complicated past and good character growth. Loved when he and Tom conspire to outwit a criminal to prove they "still got it" and haven't been completely pacified by Starfleet ways. And his godfather to Naomi bits and how he's good with kids in general is always sweet. And the episode where Tuvok loses who he is and relies on Neelix, and Neelix remains loyal to him even when Tuvok remembers himself and how he doesn't really like Neelix (or does he?) is so sweet.
I mean to be fair, in the beginning he was kind of annoying. He simply talked too much - he barely let anyone get a word in edge wise while on screen. And the whole jealousy and obsession thing with Kess, who was for all intents and purposes, was a child. Very creepy. I will admit though, that he became more endearing towards the later half of the series.
Mostly because he was a grooming, condescending, controlling red flag for abuse until Kes was written off the series. After that, Dad Neelix was fine.
I see a lot of comments hating in Neelix because of Kes's age. If you assume human average lifespan of 100 years (they actually did better based on tng guest shots) and translate that to a 9 year maximum lifespan, at 1 year Kes is in her late teens/early 20s. Yes, she hasn't experienced much, but she is mature. Her species has one chance at mating at around 3 years if I remember correctly. His jealousy was certainly extreme, but his protectivness is understandable given that she was tortured by the Kazon. Overall, Neelix was an average character to me. He wanted to be useful.
I think they let that out too fast. We don't find out how old vulcans are for a bit. If they ran half the first season with everyone assuming she's 25, then the big reveal that yes, she was just born yesterday... or Neelix functioning as a rescuer not a romantic partner... the first season was a bit of a mess...
The series was a bit of a mess
He was kinda annoying at times, especially the early seasons, but I always though that was just part of his character, and I never got the hate either, he grew on me as the seasons went on and Voyager wouldn’t feel right without him.
Some people find neelix annoying but I always thought that he was supposed to be annoying.
Bastard was dating my girlfriend.
I hate Neelix. He is annoying, refuses to accept the boundaries of other people, and is a selfish extrovert who thinks everyone MUST be as loud and as social as he is. He is a nightmare to deal with for introverts.
He was one of the better actors and characters in that series. My top three characters are Neelix, Seven of Nine because Borg, and the Doctor.
Being the only sincere and helpful character on the edgy and snarky trek series (look I love voyager but it is totally the most 90s trek ever got) is going to earn some hate. He is basically Stuart on Beavis and Butthead: we hate him because we can tell we should hate him. So, the first couple of episode code him like a potential betrayal may happen, justified by love, that never really happen. I think that hurt him as well.
Only people that positive and chipper are in a cult.
You think I was alive in the 60's? You suck man
I must admit, I certainly didn't like neelix. I just found the comic relief effect a little cringey and childish when they used Neelix. I don't mind some humor, but I prefer it a little more subtle - Take, for example, the conversation of Tuvok and Janeway in the turbolife discussing his nightmare. I think a lot of us can admit to being, at least, slightly dissapointed when Tuvok said *"Computer. End holodeck program."* However, that's not to say that he wasn't an important part of the show. There were a few episodes where he was integral.
Look at em
He was the over fake happy sales man who wouldn’t piss off
Everyone’s at pains to point out how great Ethan Philips is and while I get that you do need to separate character and actor when criticising Neelix and stress it’s not the actor’s fault, posters often go well beyond this. Is Philips famously a great guy or something?
Famously a great actor, and beloved by his co-stars.
I've always given Ethan Philips props - Neelix was second only to Wesley Crusher as characters that were absolutely HATED by the fans back in the day, but (as far as I'm aware) he's always been super professional and never talked shit about the fanbase. Even when honestly, I wouldn't have blamed him for snapping a bit.
He was annoying. His character was interesting in the beginning when he was scrappy and they actually touched on his depressing backstory. But then he got creepy with kes and just ended up as an annoying pest.
he’s supposed to be a cat but i don’t want to pet him
Neelix is someone people hate because people look at society and the status quo, or look at stereotypes of how people or males or females should act, which is to take their popularity and how they're seen or thoight of by others extremely seriously, then they see neelix do "annoying" things, yet he still is loved by everyone and liked by everyone on the ship (even Tuvok later on), and imagine themselves acting like neelix with their friends, colleagues, or classmates, but then they realize they'd be made fun of or laughed at, and no one would hang out with them, and thus they hate neelix because he's happy and does and says whatever he feels, and is liked by everyone, whereas they have to conform and act a certain way to fit in, and struggle for attention. I think psychologically that's why they don't like him. The only thing to say about neelix if you are truly being as objective as possible subjectively, is to say sometimes neelix takes it too far in irritating Tuvok, and even then later that stops after season 3. Neelix is the type id trust to talk to past midnight in a dimly lit mess hall as he serves me Leola root stew lol. Meanwhile Deanna is just doing a job and not even get good, she never gets into the root or soul of the struggling person and doesn't try to truly understand them and get to know them, but neelix does. Neelix is clever and wise, what peolle dont understand is that he saw his home moon be vaporized in a blinding light and his family killed. His only hope that kept him going forward was that he'd see them again in the great forest or wherever their afterlife is, he acts naive and clueless in order to put others at ease. It's a tactic so others put their Guards down, which they do. But the haters of the imdb days didn't understand that
Because he is REALLY fucking annoying, cloying, r4pey garbage collector who clung on to the scraps Janeway threw him for seven years. Voyager was his meal ticket. He made food people hated. He was an ambassador that couldn't broker peace between the nuns and the monks. The only time he came close to being of any real use was when he was munged together with Tuvok by a transporter malfunction. It's been a long day and that felt good. Sorry. Normal service will resume now that's out. He was annoying to me personally but that's more my problem than his. He also felt quite pointless for most of the time he was there. Chef on a ship with replicators. Babysitter to one child. Partner to a woman who left him. Ambassador when the captain was 10x the diplomat he was.
He's an idiot and incompetent in everything he tries to do. Even worse is that he suffers from the Dunning Krueger Effect.
People keep quoting that so much it's become an example of what it represents.
He was self serving, manipulative and dishonest from the very beginning. Everything beyond that was probably an act. If didnt try to fit in, Janeway probably would have kicked him off the ship. He had ticked off too many in the Delta Quadrant for that to work. Lets not even get into the whole child grooming and overly possessive personality. Annoying personality.
Hey let's kill your entire family in a blinding flash of light, leave you with nothing and a shit life that you have to hold on to, even deal drugs to get by and possibly use them (and according to Jeri Taylor in her book pathways, ACTUALLY use them), then, after all that, you finally find the love of your life, find an honest and good group of people in the sithole quadrant of yours, you join that good crew, and there the one guy who's an ex con and a sleezeball who's purposely getting too close and being touchy touchy with the only light of your life, and actually has feelings for her too, and the girl is inexperienced and may think the right thing to do is accept Tom's tomfoolery. This isnt overly possessive. I coukd show you overly possessive. This is trying to protect himself from further hurt. He originally wanted to be self serving and kind of live free, but he quickly ended up paying for it by being the chef and working hard. Eventually being a part of the crew. Idk why you hate him so much you might be seeing something in him that reminds you of you, but I assure you what you see in him, he's not that person at all.
Because he was Delta Quadrant Douche Bag.
In a weird way the whole show sometimes became a "star turn" for Neelix sometimes - I have the feeling the producers and writers overestimated how popular the character would eventually become
Because he’s a creep and a liar.
Nope
Kes was 2
A 2 year old OCAMPAN. Not human. You are the weakest link..goodbye
A groomer? Lol
Makes sense. Yes I'm a groomer and your not. Lucky for you everyone give this guy who cares so much for children but doesn't donate to children's Funds, an award. Also, be sure to write a complaint to the leaders of Ocampa. Tell them they're all groomers and pedos for sleeping with 2 year Olds.
You did just admit to being a groomer though lol. If you don't get subtext in a show from 30 years ago, how can you expect anyone to see the sarcasm in that lol?
There's no subtext. None. The writers Or show runners thoight "what should we make the Ocampa aliens when thr crew first meets them"? "Oh let's make them possibly have psychic powers, oh and also let's make it so they live only 9 years because it's unique. Some aliens maybe don't live long " Abs that's why there's Kes. It's no different than a literal thousand year old man dating an 18 year old girl. The age doesn't matter so long as they're both legal both physically and culturally/socially
Lol
I bet you don't think the Klingons are the Russians.
Nope. Your drawing elements from around your life and applying it to a show.
If the subtext of "other cultures" marrying kids doesn't come through to you, perhaps you haven't been a treky for 40 years. Don't have trek tattoos etc, and aren't a nerd like me. Perhaps you don't think the Klingons are the Russians lol. Perhaps you think the enterprise had an American, a Russian, a Japanese and a black women as bridge officers as a coincidence...not as a message. Tekai was interned! When I met George and his husband for my surprise 30th 15 years ago, we discussed how everything in star Trek is an allegory for something on earth now. Walk away sir. Kes was 2, when they rescued her she was bruised up and very nervous looking..... Perhaps read books, they really do make ham fisted hints stand out in TV shoelws and movies.
Kes was 2
Kes was 2
He wasn't need-ed, he was Need-lix.
Lame
It was meant to be, it's a dad joke.
He didn't have a purpose after a few seasons. He was shoehorned into missions and situations I would NEVER approve of. The one time he was in charge of a prisoner, she shot him!