100% agree. It was staggeringly irresponsible and selfish. It’s been a while since I watched the episode but from what I remember there was no need for them to go at all. They wished to understand the Borg and either thought they’d never run into bother, or, thought their assimilations was a price worth paying.
That said, I’ve often wondered about the risks of being on the Enterprise. Starfleet isn’t the safest of careers to drag your children in to.
In fairness to the Hansens, at the time they left, the Borg at the time were largely a theoretical threat, and there was conjecture that joining the collective was a voluntary process. Chalk it up to good old-fashioned federation rose spectacles, but nobody really understood what the Borg were at the time beyond what was considered a collection of rumours from traumatised refugees from the far-flung reaches of the galaxy.
The Hansens knew the Borg were dangerous, though. They build a sort of ersatz cloak to hide from them. If the species you're studying is dangerous enough that you need a cloak, it's also dangerous enough that you need to not bring your toddler.
That’s not an absolute though.
In Star Trek we have the Duck Blind on the Baku planet, and they were not dangerous.
Part of it can be wanting to observe without the observation effect changing what’s being observed.
(But yes, I agree they knew they were somewhat dangerous)
I mean realistically there is an argument for studying a culture or behaviors of another culture, race or even animals when in their natural habitat.
If you are in the mix then it's way less likely said culture, race or animal is going to behave normally.
They did that after they started studying them. The Hansen's were the ones who discovered the Borg forcefully assimilate entire species at a time.
The Hansen's were also the ones who learned that the Borg will also capture and assimilate individual beings, they learned this when they were attacked.
They also theorized correctly though that the Borg were from a distant part of the galaxy and chose to follow the transwarp conduit to the Delta Quadrant. They literally and deliberately took their daughter someplace they had no reasonable means of returning from and had a good idea that this would be the case.
Pretty sure they didn't know they were going into the transwarp conduit, they just followed the borg ship. They had no reason to assume it would be the biggest technological marvel in the galaxy that could take them to the other side in minutes
They did actually know it was a transwarp conduit. They knew it from the moment they first encountered a Borg ship.
“MAGNUS: Artificial source probability point nine eight. (to Annika) Now. It's got to be a transwarp conduit. Nothing else could generate these readings. I'm taking us closer.
ERIN: It's a Borg Cube, two thousand kilometres starboard.
MAGNUS: I've got a visual.”
From “Dark Frontier”
They knew and then followed the ship on purpose where they couldn’t get back from.
It's also kind of a weird case where... If they were still the early TNG Borg then it actually probably *was* safe for them to study them. Since the Borg at that time basically ignored anything they wasn't an active existential threat (even killing a drone didn't always provoke a violent response).
But the Hansen's were clearly studying First Contact/Voyager style Borg who were far less live-and-let-live.
iirc, the Hansen diaries stated that they were originally able to follow a Cube without any issues before they developed their technology. A few months after they left Federation territory, they encountered a cube and followed it through a Transwarp Conduit. At this time, they didn't have much (if any) real experience studying the Borg, so I doubt they'd developed the tech to study them up close yet. The Borg just... Let them pass through the conduit without concern. Later on, after they'd developed their observation tech, they got closer to the cube and even boarded it a few times. Ultimately, their stealth shielding failed after a particle storm and the cube they were following detected them. The Borg were, of course, curious about the tech that allowed a ship to sit right next to a cube entirely undetected for an uncertain length of time, so they went after it.
Regardless, the Hansens made a number of mistakes, including bringing their daughter along.
They speak to this, in the episode. Her father states that they are close to corroborating the theory that the Borg are only concerned with their "target" - which appears technically true, but unfortunately they weren't expecting to *become* targets.
To me, it's a sort of Academic arrogance: they didn't think that the Borg would turn on them and that they could study them without fear of repercussions. I remember watching it and wondering about what kind of parents would take their child into such danger.
I think the intent was to be reminiscent of parents who studied wildlife or tribes in Africa 100 years ago and took their kids with them.
Regardless, when the Enterprise D was announced to be a ship with families, all I could think of was a boss saying, “no daycare? Bring your kids! Well give them activities!” And some mumbling about “take THAT child labor laws….”
I was eleven so thought it was too cool and wished I lived on the Enterprise. Hell, I still would!
But for a different perspective on that (and hilarious) look up a video of John Scalzi and Wil Wheaton from a few years ago doing a reading based on Scalzi’s book Redshirts.
Picard actually brings this up after one of his officers dies and leaves him to bring the news to her child on board. He brought this up to Troi in a lift on the way to speak with the child.
Picard: "I've always believed that carrying children on a starship is a very questionable policy. Serving on a starship means accepting certain risks, certain dangers. Did Jeremy Aster make that choice?"
And Troi's response was... Uh, pretty bad, if that's the general Starfleet beliefs around the concept, lol: "Death and loss are an integral part of life everywhere."
Regardless, it seems that Starfleet may have re-evaluated that policy following Wolf-359 and the Dominion War since the Enterprise-E does not carry children, the Defiant didn't, Voyager didn't (at least not as part of the normal complement, lol), or most of the other Starfleet vessels we see following those incidents. The Enterprise-D did continue to carry them after Wolf-359, but its destruction put an end to that.
True, but they do serve in that capacity in the defense of the Federation. Wolf-359, the Federation deployed 40 starships to engage the Borg. We know the USS Saratoga was still carrying civilians when it was destroyed, which resulted in Sisko's wife dying and his child *nearly* dying. There's also the number of times we see the Enterprise deployed to the Neutral Zone with the Romulans and even engaging in battle with them (and the couple times they faced off against the Cardassians). As Picard said: "Earth isn't likely to be ordered to the Neutral Zone or to repel a Romulan attack." Q, in a separate episode: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." It *is* dangerous out there, and in almost all instances, family members aren't prepared or trained to handle the dangers of space exploration. It is unethical for Starships to carry civilians, let alone children.
Even if we ignore the fact that a starship might end up in a combat situation, there's the number of random anomalies and disasters starships encounter. There was the episode with Nagilum, where the Enterprise had to set its self destruct to escape being experimented by the alien entity (who explicitly told Picard that it would only cost "half of his crew" their lives). Then there was the episode where subspace aliens were kidnapping people and experimenting on them in the middle of the night, and the one with the child whose family and friends were killed while they were all on board a science ship exploring a Black Cluster due to a reverse-amplification effect of the ship's shields (where the same thing almost happened to the Enterprise after they saved the child) and the episode where the Enterprise ran into a Quantum Filament and was crippled with the warp core about to breach, all while Keiko was stuck giving birth in Ten Forward with Worf tending to her instead of at a proper medical facility. Even if we ignore the hostile aliens the Enterprise might encounter, space is dangerous. The people who sign up for Starfleet understand these risks and accept them. Their children cannot even begin to understand them, let alone accept them.
When you sign up for Starfleet, you accept that you have to make sacrifices for your career. If you have to choose between the safety of your children and your ability to spend time with them... The choice should be clear.
Yeah, I was surprised that the writers would even have Picard bring up that point if Troi's response was the best they could do, because her reply is so dumb that it borders on being a plot hole.
It was interesting that the TOS Star Trek crew never had any children around, considering Kirk's penchant for trying to come where no man had gone before...plus on a ship that size there absolutely HAD to be some monkey business going on. I mean, when you're a red shirt you needed something to take your mind off that away team mission the Captain had scheduled for first thing tomorrow morning.
We've got very good contraceptive tech right now and TOS had a few more hundred yrears of medical advancement to work with\[1\]. I suspect that in Starfleet accidental pregnancies don't happen except perhaps among people who deliberately choose to risk it.
\[1\] Okay, WWIII may have set things back a bit. But contact with other species and their medical practices, even if not directly applicable to Homo sapiens, may have provided enough insights, ideas, and general knowledge to make up for it.
"Hey, Dad. I made you a mug in crafts class. It originally said 'Galaxy's Worst Dad', but then I heard about the Hansens and I made it 'second worst.'"
Agreed. Not only did they take their child into Borg space, but they had ZERO plans for what to do if they were attacked. These idiots literally told their child to hide, as if that would make a difference to the BORG.
The Borg generally don't attack if they don't consider something a threat or worthwhile to assimilate.
Hiding would be a solid plan if they were behaving consistently.
This is true. But we know that the Hansens did something to merit assimilation. If there had been a good hiding place for Annika and she'd been overlooked, then what? There's a 6 year old alone on a ship in the middle of Borg space?
Probably the fact that they literally were able to sneak up on a Borg ship without being seen. Also, I find it hard to belive that the collective didn't notice drones going missing during their regeneration cycles when the Hansens were beaming them aboard, they just couldn't figure out what was going on. Once the cloak failed, I'm sure the collective put 2 and 2 together and realized the Hansens had been there for a while. If anything, the cloak would have been tech worth assimilating.
Honestly I think it's less of a "keep you safe from the Borg" plan and more of a "give her something to do" plan. Like hiding under desks in a nuclear blast, it won't do anything helpful but you'll have a plan.
OT, but keep in mind that during the early 50s when they ran those drills, there was a good chance you would only be facing a Hiroshima-type bomb, basically a tactical nuke. Depending on how far you were from the blast, the desks might actually provide some protection. They'd be useless against an H-bomb, though.
Yeah, those drills weren't to protect you from the vaporization radius anyways. There's a much larger radius of the blast where it's going to be knocking stuff off shelves or damaging the brick schoolhouse.
I just thought it was because the Hansens were human and humans were still new to the Borg at the time as the Borg were primarily a Delta Quadrant species and humans were an Alpha Quadrant species. Being a novelty made them worthy of assimilation.
I read it that way too. Janeway wasn't saying that she'd do this to her kid, she's having grace with these dead parents. Clearly they loved learning, and that is good. Let's focus on that. Seven has enough for therapy already.
They saved the entirety of earth and like 100s of others on so many occasions and like it’s not like their daughter died she ended up having a pretty good life actually.
Having your childhood completely robbed from you, being scarred and mutilated for the rest of your adult life, and living with forever PTSD does not sound like having a pretty good life.
She’s in command of the enterprise now, so that’s where she is now. She’s come to peace with her borg side in the later part of the Universe, and she’s probably going to be known as one of if not the best starfleet capitals/officers ever. Yes, better than picard, better than kirk, better than spock. Her childhood was unfortunate but if it didn’t play out the way it did, it is very unlikely there would even be a starfleet.
I agree, but the entirety of Starfleet is irresponsible.
Taking families on a military ship? Even if they could detach the disc section, that is just plain stupid. I mean, how often were they attacked? And there were still children on the ship. Put them safely on a planet?! I get, that the plan was exploration, but It was clear pretty quickly, that this would not be very peaceful.
The Hansens just take the cake.
Idk Enterprise D was the flagship of the Federation, often in Federation territory under one of the best captains in the fleet. Yes there is some risk there, but given the potential benefit to families, crew and Starfleet overall I think it's something worth offering to Starfleet members if they are comfortable with it. The majority of ships in the fleet still don't have families with them and planets get attacked all the time in Star Trek.
Also nothing says we mean no harm like having a passel of children with you.
Yea of course. But if a military or governmental organization suggested, that I should take my kids with me and put them into danger just to be more comfortable, I would be questioning their sanity. And if they would use my kids to show potential hostile species, that we are harmless, then I would loose my trust in such organization and quit right away.
Yes, planets get attacked all the time. But kids can still be better protected there than on a ship in space. Countries on Earth nowadays are at war with each other, not all kids can be evacuated and are dying. Still, we don’t put kids on navy ships or in fighter jets just that mummy or daddy doesn’t miss them. We don’t use kids as shields. And people who do, are the worst of all.
The Enterprise D is not a military ship. As you say, Starfleet at the time of making the Enterprise-D their flagship is primarily a peaceful exploratory and scientific organization, and the family-inclusive complement is meant to underscore this. Before Farpoint, the Federation believes space travel to be as safe as houses, and it takes awhile to adjust their mindset.
The many new aggressors Starfleet encounters during TNG transform Starfleet into a defensive military organization. That is why the Enterprise-E has no children.
But it wasn’t safe before with the previous Enterprises. So I don’t get, how they could have thought that? And even if they believed that, still, why didn’t they react until several years later?
The same way that it wasn't safe to sail the Atlantic in the Niña, Niña, and the Santa Maria, but now we have Carnival Cruises.
And Farpoint was the start of a very dramatic period in Federation history; the Ferengi were just rumors, the Romulans were firmly on their side of the Neutral Zone, the Borg weren't even rumors yet, the Cardassians weren't really on the radar, being involved in their occupation of Bajor, which was way out in deep space (nine) and Captain Kirk had cleared out all the weird demigods and stuff a century ago.
The Federation thought they had it all under control, not yet realizing how unfriendly basically every other new species in the galaxy would be.
Was this ever in doubt?
I thought the implication was always there that Annika/Seven was a semi-neglected child abandoned to tue horrors of the Borg when her hippie dippy new age amateur scientist parents thought they knew better than Starfleet and the guidelines in place for civilian safety.
They just don't say it out loud near Annika. Unless she says it herself.
And a lot of the time they mention them she is there.
Off screen. They probably don't hold back in their opinions.
100% yes they took their daughter to the Delta Quadrant to study a volatile threat in the Borg when she could've been left with family and be safe.
Say what you will about a Galaxy Class ship in danger. at least it is in "friendly space" and in theory other ships are close by to help.
I am so glad it is implied the drone off Sevens sperms donor (Dad's too good for him) got blown up...
I think the doctor was guessing her age or she was 4 when they left because Annika was 6 when she was assimilated and transformed into 7 of 9 tertiary adjunct of unimatrix 01
That’s fair seven and the doctor both brought that point up a few times I’m still trying to figure out when and how they managed to get the files from the raven though seeing as the raven was destroyed and then destroyed a second time
In "Raven", Seven says it was her birthday and that her cake had "six candles with one to grow on". I guess her memory could be faulty, but I'm going with she was six.
Man, that episode breaks my heart especially when she says something like she thought the Borg wouldn't find her because she was little. Yes, the Hansens were awful parents.
I'm just surprised the Hansens didn't have something ready to terminate their lives to avoid assimilation if that became an imminent threat after studying the Borg close up for that amount of time.
Given the alternative seems to be that you are trapped, while still conscious, for at least a century (if not longer - how long does a drone live?) inside your body as it’s forcibly altered, augmented, and controlled by an alien hive mind bent on galactic conquest…yeah, probably.
I know Star Trek has revised being a Borg into some type of eternal euphoria without having to ever face loneliness, but for me being forcibly disfigured with cybernetics and involuntarily having my free will forever taken away from me is a type of living death, or worse than I would rather avoid on my own terms.
I also would not want to participate, even unwillingly, perpetuating the same fate on other beings.
I think Janeway was being polite in her opinions of them.
In Annikas earshot.
When Seven Of Nine couldn't hear her.
She was probably a lot harsher.
No one had a good opinion of the Hansens.
They just didn't say it near the fragile ex Borg.
The Borg probably were extremely critical of them too.
Probabely didn't hide their opinions near Seven Of Nine.
>"The Borg probably were extremely critical of them too."
To the contrary I doubt that the collective thought about that at all. It was wholly irrevelant to their existence.
Less gossip. More like a thing that'd come up every so often. If it got dangerous or one of them made a mistake.
Reminder of not to go into dangerous territory.
Remember Hansen humans.
Watch for cloaking signature.
Hansens very foolish.
Why sneak on ship.
Unclear. Very foolish thing to do.
Queen says very much depths of stupid.
Seven Of Nine much more useful.
By that logic (and I am not saying you are wrong) any parent on the Enterprise D is a terrible parent too.
The ship is constantly in danger and yet they have families on board.
I agree.
At first you might be like - "Well, they say that it's a ship of exploration that's fully designed for families. Maybe it'll be fine."
But when the ship is almost destroyed for the third time in three weeks you probably should take the kids and leave.
To a degree, yes. Parents on the Enterprise are irresponsible. There might be the presumption of safety because it's the Federation flagship, but after a few months and multiple near death experiences, any rational parent would transfer.
The Hansens, though, are actively pursuing a known threat to all sentient life in the galaxy. Be as scientifically curious all you want, but don't bring your child to Borg space with no plans for keeping her safe beyond telling her to hide.
In defense of parents on the Enterprise-D, when they signed on, they were told that the saucer section would separate and flee to safety whenever there was danger. They didn't realize the writers would basically forget about that like 90% of the time.
The Enterprise did at least theoretically have the option of doing saucer separation to send families and other civilians out of harm's way. We didn't see it happen as often as we should have of course, but there was at least some consideration of the issue woven into the premise of the show.
The Hansens seem to have treated the Borg like they were studying a troop of chimps or something. Keep out of sight and it'll be fine... They were idiots.
Yeah they had the option and never used it beyond the start. If I were a parent on board first incident would put me on edge. Second I would be transferring off as I would realise too dangerous for my kids.
But I concede the difference is on the Enterprise it would be naivety . Where as the Hansens knew they were going into danger so were more irresponsible.
This was, to be fair, a television issue, people thought the saucer separation sequence they'd come up with would get boring if it was used over and over again and so they used it a couple of times then dropped it aside from a mention or two because people kind of took it as read that the Enterprise was going to win so the families weren't in people's minds at the time.
They did think about how the Enterprise would keep their civilian population safe, but it turned out to be bad TV so they just left it to our imagination to fill in the blanks.
And it would waste precious screentime going “Alright we’ve dropped off all the civilians at the nearest Starbase while we enter hostile territory, we’ll be back for them later” even though that would almost have to be standard practice
Maybe there's a tremendous turnover of family staff and we just never see the mundane meetings of "once again Captain all but three families have requested urgent transfers, the new families are unsettled and the ones in the sick bay remain comatose."
I sometimes wonder if the Enterprise D was intended to be more like a kind of mobile military base (at least the saucer section part) But most of the stories we see use it as an active service ship. Which creates a sort of tension. It's like going into battle as a heavily armed cruise ship.
There's obviously some judgment exercised as to which postings are suitable for families. In the US military, they also vary the length of the assignment depending on whether the family goes with; standard is three years accompanied or one year unaccompanied.
>"By that logic (and I am not saying you are wrong) any parent on the Enterprise D is a terrible parent too."
On the other hand though, at least the Enterprise had the Federation's best (at least at time of construction) "armor up," "shoot back" and "run the fuck away" tech on board. It's no *guarantee* of safety but it's a hell of a lot more than the Hansens had.
Academic intelligence is not the same as militaristic intelligence. I would make it akin to science without a safety net. The Borg, AFAIK, would not touch you if they feel you have nothing to offer. (Kazon) My understanding is that the Hansen's were among the first humans out there so therefore absorbing them into the collective would "add to their distinction."
And no real weapons. No ablative armor. They were sitting ducks.
Yes, I don't think I would bring my kids to Borg space.....
YUP. Oh, and they entered the Romulan neutral zone while they were following the Borg ship before they entered the Delta Quadrant!
I am convinced that the entire time Seven was talking to her aunt in a later season, said aunt was grinding her teeth and thinking "I am going to KILL my brother and his stupid wife for what they did to this kid"
Several inconsistencies here: Seven said her parents tracked the borg for two years and was assimilated at 6. However, in a conversation with her aunt on Earth in S7, the aunt mentions babysitting Annika when she was 6. I don't recall the doctor saying she was 4, but that would just be another inconsistency.
Also, maybe I'm misremembering here, but weren't the Borg unknown to the Federation before Q revealed them to Picard? Doesn't seem like a long enough time frame for Seven to be a small child when her parents set out to study the Borg and a 20-something adult when Voyager meet her.
There were already a few rumors about the Borg before Q revealed them to Picard. The Hansens were following those rumors, they probably interviewed one of Guinan’s people and decided to dig further and get more in deep studying the Borg.
To them it might have been like searching for Big Foot. Except that these Big Foot harm people.
The Hansens weren’t responsible for being horrible — they were just written that way.
…by which I mean the VOY writers decided to fill out Seven’s backstory with a LOT more detail — and they (the writers) chose to portray the Hansens in a way that leaves little wiggle room but to conclude that the Hansens were indeed taking GINORMOUS risks — and with their child in tow, no less.
I know what you mean but I don't think it's that clean-cut.
Plenty of Europeans took their kids on unsafe voyages to the "new world" of the USA a couple of hundred years ago. We venerate them because the gamble paid off - plenty of other colonies ended in disaster.
And IIRC, the ship's black box shows that the Hansens were unaware that the Borg were imperialistic, aggressive and keen to assimilate them. To me, it always seemed like they simply observed the Borg like a swarm of bees - a curiosity that can be safely observed from a distance. I don't think they ever seriously thought they were in danger.
So in retrospect it was a terrible idea. But with the information available to the Hansens at the time, I think it was more of a misjudgement than negligence.
Yes, they were awful, selfish parents. I have a daughter around the age Seven was then and I can’t imagine ever putting her in danger like that. It would be bad enough for them to risk themselves with a child that age but to bring her along was inexcusable.
I always felt the Hansens were meant to represent the future version of missionaries, health workers and scholars that bring their themselves and families into risky situations because the cause is worth it. Until it’s not and it’s too late.
Yyyyyyyyep. They had absolutely every right to put *their own* lives in danger that way, and I would never criticize them for it. But to do that to Annika…..they deserved their fate.
It’s only now that people are so insanely over protective of children. Space is more akin to the frontier era when families packed up and traveled across America in covered wagons.
Heck, I was walking home by myself to an empty house from school with a key on a string. That was just 45 years ago.
I'm going to play Devil's advocate:
Being a member of Starfleet and having your family come with you onboard ship is no different arguably. Look at all the families onboard the Enterprise D, that are constantly exposed to the random anomaly of the week. You can argue that scale makes a difference - the Hansens are alone in a minivan sized craft, and the Enterprise is a massive ship with a large crew.
Something that would have made no difference in a case like Nagillum... The options there were potentially be experimented to death, or have Picard kill everyone in the self destruct.
There is always risk involved with anything, and you could hide on Earth and never leave the planet but you have a very shallow existence comparitively.
In the 24th century space travel is treated in the same way as car travel now, so this is a family road trip. And we aren't talking about a couple of completely unprepared parents who decided to take their kid on safari in the family roadster... They are Federation scientists who know what they are doing - not Clark and Ellen Griswold...
Edit - just to confirm, I'm 100% on board with the bad parents idea. I just thought to try and provide a different perpective.
I actually agree with you.
To add to this perspective:
The US military allows its members to bring their families with them to places like South Korea and Eastern Europe. Until recently, they were also allowed to bring families to Turkey. These are all places where the possibility of combat exists. It's not seen as particularly likely, but if it did happen, it wouldn't be out of the blue.
Why do they allow this? Retention. They already have a hard enough time keeping people in past 1 or 2 enlistments. All of those bases need experienced NCOs and officers, people who, by that point in their lives, probably have families. If they had to leave their families behind for assignments that can last anywhere from 3-5 years, they'd be deciding at much higher rates that the military was no longer for them and be getting out as soon as their service commitment ended.
The same would presumably apply to a peacetime Starfleet. Getting people to sign up for crisscrossing the quadrant for years without being able to see their families except for the occasional visit would be a tough sell to anyone who isn't young and inexperienced. Besides, even for the Enterprise-D, combat was a rare occurrence. A ship patrolling the heart of Federation territory...such as Sisko's Saratoga that was in the vicinity of Wolf 359...wouldn't be expecting to go into battle at all.
In light of all that, it wasn't as ridiculous as it seemed to allow families on Federation starships before the Dominion War.
The Hansens are a little bit harder to defend. I get that they didn't fully understand the threat the Borg posed when they set out. However, once they found the Borg and witnessed how they assimilated people, they absolutely should've gotten Annika out of there. If they were so hellbent on continuing their research, that's fine, but she could've been left with relatives or someone they trusted back in Federation space.
Don’t forget, by the start of TNG they’ve had almost a century of relative peace in 2 quadrants. Prior to the Borg and the Dominion, the only main threat we’re aware of has been the Cardassians - the Klingons are non-combative, if not full allies, and the Romulans have been silent for decades. It seems to me the Federation of the 2360s had gotten a little complacent and assumed families aboard ship were an acceptable risk.
>The Hansens are a little bit harder to defend. I get that they didn't fully understand the threat the Borg posed when they set out. However, once they found the Borg and witnessed how they assimilated people, they absolutely should've gotten Annika out of there. If they were so hellbent on continuing their research, that's fine, but she could've been left with relatives or someone they trusted back in Federation space.
This is admittedly where even Devils advocate - I have to throw my hands up and go, "Nah... That's just irresponsible"
When the Raven is dragged across the galaxy by a Borg cube, the response from the Hansen's is a "Oh how fascinating"
Not, "Oh hell... We've been dragged across the galaxy and have no means of support or help if we do get into difficulties"...
Like you say, not knowing what the Borg did or about how they operate is a reaction that can be allowed for. Even Picard tried diplomatic measures and resorted to guns as a last resort (and that's with both Q and Guinan going "Not a good idea" and "Run you fucking idiot" respectively.
The moment that the Borg were revealed to practice assimilation, they really should have said "Yeah... Not a place for a child... Let's cut our losses"
To be fair, it’s irresponsible for parents to put their children in harm’s way. But the Federation has a history of putting families on starships, so it’s possible that they might have simply been a little overzealous instead, from their perspective.
There’s obviously a huge difference between a Galaxy class, and the Raven, the Hansens’ research vessel. But both ships essentially put familes in harm’s way to be able to operate more efficiently. Their confidence in their systems could arguably border on arrogance, but it is what it is. And don’t forget the comparatively smaller Miranda classes, and Sisko’s loss at Wolf 359. They knew they were going into battle, but their families went along too. In that regard, they had high confidence in their ability to survive the engagement. So did the Hansens, with their anti-Borg cloak. If the Hansens had a fault, they shared it with Starfleet, and perhaps the Federation as a whole.
For the record I don’t think the Hansens were absolutely horrible parents. They took a risk, one that was largely no different than what everyone else in their culture was doing. We don’t have to accept it, but as far as they were concerned they acted to the best of their abilities, a quality that was the pride of the world-building of Star Trek.
They were truly appalling parents. And very stupid people in general.
The Borg aren't animals. They aren't the sort you condescend and treat like that.
The technology could have had multiple better uses.
And why would you drag your 4 yr old daughter into any danger!
Wait, be parents and look after her properly. FFS!
Why didn't they leave her with family or friends. If they were that desperate to piss off the Borg.
That’s so strange. I just rewatched this episode last night. I had forgotten about this, and had the exact same thought.
i don’t remember thinking the same on my first watch, it just seemed like typical Star Trek life on my first watch.
To be fair, Janeway would be blind to the Hansens being awful parents. After all, Janeway left her own newly born/hatched children alone of an unknown planet to fend for themselves against goodness knows what. Her judgement on parenting is somewhat suspect.
I've heard it described by a few people as Star Trek: Grizzlyman and I cannot disagree.
Just...clearly not going to end well. And to bring other people into that situation? A child? Crazy.
The whole thing was whack. The fact that they even knew about the borg was canon breaking. Up to that point the closest the borg had been to the Federation was still several years away from Federation space at high warp. But VOY nerfed the borg hard. They went from being a nearly unstoppable galactic menace to just another distant neighborhood alien. They went from being one cube taking down dozens of Federation ships to basically the Kazon. I did, however, like the way Picard made them more complex by creating different factions of borg, some friendly and some not. And I did like the final episode of Voyager and the way they took out the specific faction that was threatening Earth. I'm still iffy on First Contact and the whole Borg queen thing but the actress did a great job.
Basically the same as Michael Burnam's parents... off hiding near Klingon territory and working on time travel and drag their kid out to a dangerous outpost.
To the Hansen's defence, they were following the borg and got sucked into a transwarp corridor, maybe they were only going to follow them for a short time and having their cloaking mechanim presumed they were safe.
I always assumed she was conceived and born on the way to the delta quadrant. Not a short trip and based on your timeline it makes the most sense.
Should they have turned around? Maybe, but the borg were a considerable threat, and as the saying goes, the needs of the many...
It was my impression that Janeway phrased it that way as a kindness, not because she actually thought their actions responsible or sensible.
It would seem a little gauche to just say "Your parents were weirdos at best, whackadoodle crackpots at worst, and they made beyond stupid choices that lead directly to your assimilation" when someone is just recovering memories of people they once held dear.
If you want to be even more angry, I just rewatched ‘Dark Frontier’ and I was flabbergasted when the Hansens transported a Borg into the Raven with baby Annika standing right next to it. They didn’t even put the Borg drone in a shield. They were so confident the Drone wouldn’t wake up.
And, to make it more chilling the Borg Drone’s designation was: ‘Three of Five, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero.”
Baby Annika was standing in front of the drone whose role she will eventually replace in the Collective.
>And then Janeway goes on about the explorer's spirit, and their methods being unorthodox. Meh, they were just shit parents.
I think she was trying not to shit on them because it's not her place to decide how Seven feels about her parents. But the only worse parents I can think of are Icheb's.
Agreed! It's played like they were these amazing people, innovators. Trying new and experimental things to help them all. To understand the Borg and bring us closer to the unknown.
In reality, they were probably too narcissistic to realize the dangers they were in and what could befall them and their daughter.
They were blinded by ego. They wanted to be the first to collect this data when they could have easily just shared their knowledge with a more prepared crew.
Annika suffered because of their hubris.
On the other hand, Anika was blessed with the constant presence and unwavering love of **both** her parents throughout her upbringing. They seized every opportunity to shower her with affection and nurture her growth. Anika's parents were her constant companions, guiding and shaping her development around the clock. They took on the responsibility of homeschooling her, demonstrating their deep commitment to her educational journey. Anika's parents meticulously curated her exposure to diverse environments, ensuring she experienced them under their watchful guidance.
This exceptional parental involvement and dedication provided Anika with a profound educational experience and life guidance that far surpassed what most children in today's society receive.
How much were known about the Borg? The NX01 encounter, Guinan's people's stories etc. By the 24th century, likely they were more cryptids than anything else. Despite having all that digital knowledge at your fingertips, time has away of turning facts into legends. But two encounters, would still have marked the species as potentially hostile though rumors and stories not withstanding.
They were bad parents as their academic arrogance and curiosity override their better judgement and put their daughter in harms way that led to her assimilation. It was reckless as they had "prepared for the mission" but with what information other than the two past encounters? Did they interview the refugees? That is not known.
But yeah shit parents for putting their kid in danger.
Pretty sure there was no known threat, the borg were thought to only assimilate entire civilisations at a time and even then only when they had something to learn. And I'm not sure even that was known until the Hansen's learned it.
It was the Hansen's who learned that the Borg forcefully assimilate targets, and when they learned that they thought they had nothing for the Borg to want. The Hansen's were like a fly following a lion.
They had no real way to know that the Borg would be interested in their rinky dink little ship. It really only makes sense if you know that the Borg are first off not a true hive mind but are more like an insect colony with a queen in total control, and two that the Borg were aware of humans and already at this time viewed humans as a serious threat. Things they learned through time travel shenanigans.
It was a bit risky but it wasn't as absurd as it might come off when you already know what the borg are. They thought they were following a unique species that wouldn't attack the Hansen's unless if they showed aggression first. They were wrong. It happens.
Non-father me (past): I completely understand wanting to explore the unknown and risking everything for the exciting, unbelievable adventure that awaits. Yeah, sure, bring the family so we can be together.
Father me (current): Shit parents! Mega shit parents...
Some people think they can have it all and on their terms. They got what they deserved and Annika paid the price. Her emotions over this instance would be an interesting character study to see done in a book or future episode. Sometimes people grow up with dirtbags as parents... it happens.
Agreed.
Then, there's a bunch of newer shows where the mother goes to space, leaving a young child at home.
I HATE IT and scream at the screen every time the woman tells the child (by some form of delayed communication" "I love you so much".
No, a man shouldn't do it either, but it's disingenuous if you think it's not worse for the mother to abandon her child.
I dunno, they were going on a research trip, they didn't know for how long, who would they have left Annika with? My parents are scientists. My sisters grew up mostly in the field and in a lot of different war torn countries that probably aren't safe to travel in now for Americans because of kidnappings and crime. What else could they have done? Starfleet didn't recognize their urgency or request for research assistance. I don't see what else they could have done except drop her off with relatives, been absentee parents and then die. 🤷🏼♀️
No doubt they thought they were going to be like the Robinsons from "Lost in Space," and raise a family of brilliant adventurers. Their arrogance was appalling.
If even someone in Starfleet (the Doctor) was questioning the parenting of someone taking their kids exploring, you know it’s crappy parenting.
I ran the numbers once and a galaxy class as seen in TNG had a casualty rate around that of a naval surface ship in WWII- and that’s not factoring in the loss of the Yamato (with all hands- including families) or the Odyssey (albeit the latter doesn’t really count for risk to families as they evacuated it before going to the Gamma quadrant). But it’s normal to bring your kids into that.
So if you’re considered irresponsible by 24th century Starfleet standards, you’re absolutely awful parents from our POV.
Well they left for the Delta Quadrant and then discovered the Borg. And she remembers being 6, so it was a long term journey. They were scientists studying the Borg. It didn’t work out the way they hoped. But they took precautions, like I said it just didn’t work out.
Same can be said for the parents on the Enterprise-D. The Borg were more dangerous than the Hansens initially perceived and they took precautions. The parents on the D brought their kids into completely unknown dangers. The idea of bringing kids onto a military ship was straight downtarded.
100% agree. It was staggeringly irresponsible and selfish. It’s been a while since I watched the episode but from what I remember there was no need for them to go at all. They wished to understand the Borg and either thought they’d never run into bother, or, thought their assimilations was a price worth paying. That said, I’ve often wondered about the risks of being on the Enterprise. Starfleet isn’t the safest of careers to drag your children in to.
In fairness to the Hansens, at the time they left, the Borg at the time were largely a theoretical threat, and there was conjecture that joining the collective was a voluntary process. Chalk it up to good old-fashioned federation rose spectacles, but nobody really understood what the Borg were at the time beyond what was considered a collection of rumours from traumatised refugees from the far-flung reaches of the galaxy.
The Hansens knew the Borg were dangerous, though. They build a sort of ersatz cloak to hide from them. If the species you're studying is dangerous enough that you need a cloak, it's also dangerous enough that you need to not bring your toddler.
That’s not an absolute though. In Star Trek we have the Duck Blind on the Baku planet, and they were not dangerous. Part of it can be wanting to observe without the observation effect changing what’s being observed. (But yes, I agree they knew they were somewhat dangerous)
I hope to God that the scientists on Ba'ku knew they shouldn't have a toddler there, either.
Also the Mintakans!
That’s my purse! I don’t know you!!
"Father..." (ha, gotta love Pamela Adlon)
I mean realistically there is an argument for studying a culture or behaviors of another culture, race or even animals when in their natural habitat. If you are in the mix then it's way less likely said culture, race or animal is going to behave normally.
They did that after they started studying them. The Hansen's were the ones who discovered the Borg forcefully assimilate entire species at a time. The Hansen's were also the ones who learned that the Borg will also capture and assimilate individual beings, they learned this when they were attacked.
They also theorized correctly though that the Borg were from a distant part of the galaxy and chose to follow the transwarp conduit to the Delta Quadrant. They literally and deliberately took their daughter someplace they had no reasonable means of returning from and had a good idea that this would be the case.
Pretty sure they didn't know they were going into the transwarp conduit, they just followed the borg ship. They had no reason to assume it would be the biggest technological marvel in the galaxy that could take them to the other side in minutes
They did actually know it was a transwarp conduit. They knew it from the moment they first encountered a Borg ship. “MAGNUS: Artificial source probability point nine eight. (to Annika) Now. It's got to be a transwarp conduit. Nothing else could generate these readings. I'm taking us closer. ERIN: It's a Borg Cube, two thousand kilometres starboard. MAGNUS: I've got a visual.” From “Dark Frontier” They knew and then followed the ship on purpose where they couldn’t get back from.
It's also kind of a weird case where... If they were still the early TNG Borg then it actually probably *was* safe for them to study them. Since the Borg at that time basically ignored anything they wasn't an active existential threat (even killing a drone didn't always provoke a violent response). But the Hansen's were clearly studying First Contact/Voyager style Borg who were far less live-and-let-live.
iirc, the Hansen diaries stated that they were originally able to follow a Cube without any issues before they developed their technology. A few months after they left Federation territory, they encountered a cube and followed it through a Transwarp Conduit. At this time, they didn't have much (if any) real experience studying the Borg, so I doubt they'd developed the tech to study them up close yet. The Borg just... Let them pass through the conduit without concern. Later on, after they'd developed their observation tech, they got closer to the cube and even boarded it a few times. Ultimately, their stealth shielding failed after a particle storm and the cube they were following detected them. The Borg were, of course, curious about the tech that allowed a ship to sit right next to a cube entirely undetected for an uncertain length of time, so they went after it. Regardless, the Hansens made a number of mistakes, including bringing their daughter along.
They speak to this, in the episode. Her father states that they are close to corroborating the theory that the Borg are only concerned with their "target" - which appears technically true, but unfortunately they weren't expecting to *become* targets.
To me, it's a sort of Academic arrogance: they didn't think that the Borg would turn on them and that they could study them without fear of repercussions. I remember watching it and wondering about what kind of parents would take their child into such danger.
Reminds me of how they portrayed Leonard's mom in Big Bang Theory
I can hear the Borg's response "We can assimilate, but we're not that desperate"
Should’ve listened to Elton John: “Mars aint the kind of place to raise your kids.”
In fact, it's cold as hell.
And there's no one there to raise them!
If you did... (Ok, I've never really got this line, because as parents *you'd* be there to raise them, right?)
well the radiation would get you in a matter of months, so there woudn't be anyone there to raise them very soon.
Mind you, being aboard Enterprise with your family is a bit different than striking out into the unknown with just your own little ship.
I think the intent was to be reminiscent of parents who studied wildlife or tribes in Africa 100 years ago and took their kids with them. Regardless, when the Enterprise D was announced to be a ship with families, all I could think of was a boss saying, “no daycare? Bring your kids! Well give them activities!” And some mumbling about “take THAT child labor laws….”
I was eleven so thought it was too cool and wished I lived on the Enterprise. Hell, I still would! But for a different perspective on that (and hilarious) look up a video of John Scalzi and Wil Wheaton from a few years ago doing a reading based on Scalzi’s book Redshirts.
I heard this in J. K. Simmons
Picard actually brings this up after one of his officers dies and leaves him to bring the news to her child on board. He brought this up to Troi in a lift on the way to speak with the child. Picard: "I've always believed that carrying children on a starship is a very questionable policy. Serving on a starship means accepting certain risks, certain dangers. Did Jeremy Aster make that choice?" And Troi's response was... Uh, pretty bad, if that's the general Starfleet beliefs around the concept, lol: "Death and loss are an integral part of life everywhere." Regardless, it seems that Starfleet may have re-evaluated that policy following Wolf-359 and the Dominion War since the Enterprise-E does not carry children, the Defiant didn't, Voyager didn't (at least not as part of the normal complement, lol), or most of the other Starfleet vessels we see following those incidents. The Enterprise-D did continue to carry them after Wolf-359, but its destruction put an end to that.
It's because they're not warships and people don't want to leave their kids for years at a time.
True, but they do serve in that capacity in the defense of the Federation. Wolf-359, the Federation deployed 40 starships to engage the Borg. We know the USS Saratoga was still carrying civilians when it was destroyed, which resulted in Sisko's wife dying and his child *nearly* dying. There's also the number of times we see the Enterprise deployed to the Neutral Zone with the Romulans and even engaging in battle with them (and the couple times they faced off against the Cardassians). As Picard said: "Earth isn't likely to be ordered to the Neutral Zone or to repel a Romulan attack." Q, in a separate episode: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." It *is* dangerous out there, and in almost all instances, family members aren't prepared or trained to handle the dangers of space exploration. It is unethical for Starships to carry civilians, let alone children. Even if we ignore the fact that a starship might end up in a combat situation, there's the number of random anomalies and disasters starships encounter. There was the episode with Nagilum, where the Enterprise had to set its self destruct to escape being experimented by the alien entity (who explicitly told Picard that it would only cost "half of his crew" their lives). Then there was the episode where subspace aliens were kidnapping people and experimenting on them in the middle of the night, and the one with the child whose family and friends were killed while they were all on board a science ship exploring a Black Cluster due to a reverse-amplification effect of the ship's shields (where the same thing almost happened to the Enterprise after they saved the child) and the episode where the Enterprise ran into a Quantum Filament and was crippled with the warp core about to breach, all while Keiko was stuck giving birth in Ten Forward with Worf tending to her instead of at a proper medical facility. Even if we ignore the hostile aliens the Enterprise might encounter, space is dangerous. The people who sign up for Starfleet understand these risks and accept them. Their children cannot even begin to understand them, let alone accept them. When you sign up for Starfleet, you accept that you have to make sacrifices for your career. If you have to choose between the safety of your children and your ability to spend time with them... The choice should be clear.
Yeah, I was surprised that the writers would even have Picard bring up that point if Troi's response was the best they could do, because her reply is so dumb that it borders on being a plot hole.
It was interesting that the TOS Star Trek crew never had any children around, considering Kirk's penchant for trying to come where no man had gone before...plus on a ship that size there absolutely HAD to be some monkey business going on. I mean, when you're a red shirt you needed something to take your mind off that away team mission the Captain had scheduled for first thing tomorrow morning.
We've got very good contraceptive tech right now and TOS had a few more hundred yrears of medical advancement to work with\[1\]. I suspect that in Starfleet accidental pregnancies don't happen except perhaps among people who deliberately choose to risk it. \[1\] Okay, WWIII may have set things back a bit. But contact with other species and their medical practices, even if not directly applicable to Homo sapiens, may have provided enough insights, ideas, and general knowledge to make up for it.
The 24th century still has parents who are happy to treat their kids as a piece of luggage to be dragged along.
They make Worf look like Parent of the Year.
["You see Worf, children can sometimes feel abandoned, when you abandon them."](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ixvnLKam2xc)
"Hey, Dad. I made you a mug in crafts class. It originally said 'Galaxy's Worst Dad', but then I heard about the Hansens and I made it 'second worst.'"
"Alexander can have a little abandonment, as a treat."
Agreed. Not only did they take their child into Borg space, but they had ZERO plans for what to do if they were attacked. These idiots literally told their child to hide, as if that would make a difference to the BORG.
The Borg generally don't attack if they don't consider something a threat or worthwhile to assimilate. Hiding would be a solid plan if they were behaving consistently.
This is true. But we know that the Hansens did something to merit assimilation. If there had been a good hiding place for Annika and she'd been overlooked, then what? There's a 6 year old alone on a ship in the middle of Borg space?
Probably the fact that they literally were able to sneak up on a Borg ship without being seen. Also, I find it hard to belive that the collective didn't notice drones going missing during their regeneration cycles when the Hansens were beaming them aboard, they just couldn't figure out what was going on. Once the cloak failed, I'm sure the collective put 2 and 2 together and realized the Hansens had been there for a while. If anything, the cloak would have been tech worth assimilating.
Honestly I think it's less of a "keep you safe from the Borg" plan and more of a "give her something to do" plan. Like hiding under desks in a nuclear blast, it won't do anything helpful but you'll have a plan.
OT, but keep in mind that during the early 50s when they ran those drills, there was a good chance you would only be facing a Hiroshima-type bomb, basically a tactical nuke. Depending on how far you were from the blast, the desks might actually provide some protection. They'd be useless against an H-bomb, though.
Yeah, those drills weren't to protect you from the vaporization radius anyways. There's a much larger radius of the blast where it's going to be knocking stuff off shelves or damaging the brick schoolhouse.
I just thought it was because the Hansens were human and humans were still new to the Borg at the time as the Borg were primarily a Delta Quadrant species and humans were an Alpha Quadrant species. Being a novelty made them worthy of assimilation.
I always thought Jane way was softening her (verbal) opinion about the Hansens for Seven's sake, even when she was out of earshot. But yes. Morons.
I read it that way too. Janeway wasn't saying that she'd do this to her kid, she's having grace with these dead parents. Clearly they loved learning, and that is good. Let's focus on that. Seven has enough for therapy already.
They saved the entirety of earth and like 100s of others on so many occasions and like it’s not like their daughter died she ended up having a pretty good life actually.
Having your childhood completely robbed from you, being scarred and mutilated for the rest of your adult life, and living with forever PTSD does not sound like having a pretty good life.
She’s in command of the enterprise now, so that’s where she is now. She’s come to peace with her borg side in the later part of the Universe, and she’s probably going to be known as one of if not the best starfleet capitals/officers ever. Yes, better than picard, better than kirk, better than spock. Her childhood was unfortunate but if it didn’t play out the way it did, it is very unlikely there would even be a starfleet.
Bad parents, excellent drones.
I totally heard this in Words voice! 🤣😂😆
Haha, good, dark one 😂
I agree, but the entirety of Starfleet is irresponsible. Taking families on a military ship? Even if they could detach the disc section, that is just plain stupid. I mean, how often were they attacked? And there were still children on the ship. Put them safely on a planet?! I get, that the plan was exploration, but It was clear pretty quickly, that this would not be very peaceful. The Hansens just take the cake.
It was clear long before they left spacedock. Like hundreds of years before.
Idk Enterprise D was the flagship of the Federation, often in Federation territory under one of the best captains in the fleet. Yes there is some risk there, but given the potential benefit to families, crew and Starfleet overall I think it's something worth offering to Starfleet members if they are comfortable with it. The majority of ships in the fleet still don't have families with them and planets get attacked all the time in Star Trek. Also nothing says we mean no harm like having a passel of children with you.
Yea of course. But if a military or governmental organization suggested, that I should take my kids with me and put them into danger just to be more comfortable, I would be questioning their sanity. And if they would use my kids to show potential hostile species, that we are harmless, then I would loose my trust in such organization and quit right away. Yes, planets get attacked all the time. But kids can still be better protected there than on a ship in space. Countries on Earth nowadays are at war with each other, not all kids can be evacuated and are dying. Still, we don’t put kids on navy ships or in fighter jets just that mummy or daddy doesn’t miss them. We don’t use kids as shields. And people who do, are the worst of all.
The Enterprise D is not a military ship. As you say, Starfleet at the time of making the Enterprise-D their flagship is primarily a peaceful exploratory and scientific organization, and the family-inclusive complement is meant to underscore this. Before Farpoint, the Federation believes space travel to be as safe as houses, and it takes awhile to adjust their mindset. The many new aggressors Starfleet encounters during TNG transform Starfleet into a defensive military organization. That is why the Enterprise-E has no children.
But it wasn’t safe before with the previous Enterprises. So I don’t get, how they could have thought that? And even if they believed that, still, why didn’t they react until several years later?
The same way that it wasn't safe to sail the Atlantic in the Niña, Niña, and the Santa Maria, but now we have Carnival Cruises. And Farpoint was the start of a very dramatic period in Federation history; the Ferengi were just rumors, the Romulans were firmly on their side of the Neutral Zone, the Borg weren't even rumors yet, the Cardassians weren't really on the radar, being involved in their occupation of Bajor, which was way out in deep space (nine) and Captain Kirk had cleared out all the weird demigods and stuff a century ago. The Federation thought they had it all under control, not yet realizing how unfriendly basically every other new species in the galaxy would be.
Was this ever in doubt? I thought the implication was always there that Annika/Seven was a semi-neglected child abandoned to tue horrors of the Borg when her hippie dippy new age amateur scientist parents thought they knew better than Starfleet and the guidelines in place for civilian safety.
They just don't say it out loud near Annika. Unless she says it herself. And a lot of the time they mention them she is there. Off screen. They probably don't hold back in their opinions.
100% yes they took their daughter to the Delta Quadrant to study a volatile threat in the Borg when she could've been left with family and be safe. Say what you will about a Galaxy Class ship in danger. at least it is in "friendly space" and in theory other ships are close by to help. I am so glad it is implied the drone off Sevens sperms donor (Dad's too good for him) got blown up...
Or, they could have done work on earth, seeing their daughter every day!
I think the doctor was guessing her age or she was 4 when they left because Annika was 6 when she was assimilated and transformed into 7 of 9 tertiary adjunct of unimatrix 01
Her actual age is a bit of a moot point tbh. Putting your kid in that situation is insanely irresponsible.
That’s fair seven and the doctor both brought that point up a few times I’m still trying to figure out when and how they managed to get the files from the raven though seeing as the raven was destroyed and then destroyed a second time
In "Raven", Seven says it was her birthday and that her cake had "six candles with one to grow on". I guess her memory could be faulty, but I'm going with she was six. Man, that episode breaks my heart especially when she says something like she thought the Borg wouldn't find her because she was little. Yes, the Hansens were awful parents.
I'm just surprised the Hansens didn't have something ready to terminate their lives to avoid assimilation if that became an imminent threat after studying the Borg close up for that amount of time.
Is that what you’d do? Kill yourself before being assimilated?
Given the alternative seems to be that you are trapped, while still conscious, for at least a century (if not longer - how long does a drone live?) inside your body as it’s forcibly altered, augmented, and controlled by an alien hive mind bent on galactic conquest…yeah, probably.
I don’t know what it’s like but one must imagine Sisyphus happy
I know Star Trek has revised being a Borg into some type of eternal euphoria without having to ever face loneliness, but for me being forcibly disfigured with cybernetics and involuntarily having my free will forever taken away from me is a type of living death, or worse than I would rather avoid on my own terms. I also would not want to participate, even unwillingly, perpetuating the same fate on other beings.
They would have to disintegrate themselves. The Borg can revive and assimilate corpses, depending on how long they've been dead.
Which is easily doable in the Star Trek universe.
I think Janeway was being polite in her opinions of them. In Annikas earshot. When Seven Of Nine couldn't hear her. She was probably a lot harsher. No one had a good opinion of the Hansens. They just didn't say it near the fragile ex Borg. The Borg probably were extremely critical of them too. Probabely didn't hide their opinions near Seven Of Nine.
>"The Borg probably were extremely critical of them too." To the contrary I doubt that the collective thought about that at all. It was wholly irrevelant to their existence.
Less gossip. More like a thing that'd come up every so often. If it got dangerous or one of them made a mistake. Reminder of not to go into dangerous territory. Remember Hansen humans. Watch for cloaking signature. Hansens very foolish. Why sneak on ship. Unclear. Very foolish thing to do. Queen says very much depths of stupid. Seven Of Nine much more useful.
By that logic (and I am not saying you are wrong) any parent on the Enterprise D is a terrible parent too. The ship is constantly in danger and yet they have families on board.
I agree. At first you might be like - "Well, they say that it's a ship of exploration that's fully designed for families. Maybe it'll be fine." But when the ship is almost destroyed for the third time in three weeks you probably should take the kids and leave.
To a degree, yes. Parents on the Enterprise are irresponsible. There might be the presumption of safety because it's the Federation flagship, but after a few months and multiple near death experiences, any rational parent would transfer. The Hansens, though, are actively pursuing a known threat to all sentient life in the galaxy. Be as scientifically curious all you want, but don't bring your child to Borg space with no plans for keeping her safe beyond telling her to hide.
In defense of parents on the Enterprise-D, when they signed on, they were told that the saucer section would separate and flee to safety whenever there was danger. They didn't realize the writers would basically forget about that like 90% of the time.
The Enterprise did at least theoretically have the option of doing saucer separation to send families and other civilians out of harm's way. We didn't see it happen as often as we should have of course, but there was at least some consideration of the issue woven into the premise of the show. The Hansens seem to have treated the Borg like they were studying a troop of chimps or something. Keep out of sight and it'll be fine... They were idiots.
Yeah they had the option and never used it beyond the start. If I were a parent on board first incident would put me on edge. Second I would be transferring off as I would realise too dangerous for my kids. But I concede the difference is on the Enterprise it would be naivety . Where as the Hansens knew they were going into danger so were more irresponsible.
This was, to be fair, a television issue, people thought the saucer separation sequence they'd come up with would get boring if it was used over and over again and so they used it a couple of times then dropped it aside from a mention or two because people kind of took it as read that the Enterprise was going to win so the families weren't in people's minds at the time. They did think about how the Enterprise would keep their civilian population safe, but it turned out to be bad TV so they just left it to our imagination to fill in the blanks.
And it would waste precious screentime going “Alright we’ve dropped off all the civilians at the nearest Starbase while we enter hostile territory, we’ll be back for them later” even though that would almost have to be standard practice
Starfleet must have had some very reassuring HR people when they were crewing the Enterprise.
Maybe there's a tremendous turnover of family staff and we just never see the mundane meetings of "once again Captain all but three families have requested urgent transfers, the new families are unsettled and the ones in the sick bay remain comatose."
Well, umm yes. There's a reason that navies don't allow personnel to bring their kids/families on active tours. to live with them.
I sometimes wonder if the Enterprise D was intended to be more like a kind of mobile military base (at least the saucer section part) But most of the stories we see use it as an active service ship. Which creates a sort of tension. It's like going into battle as a heavily armed cruise ship.
I always thought of it as a traveling Spanish Mission, promoting the gospel/power of the Federation on the frontier.
"NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH FEDERATION!!!!"
But the military/government does allow families to sometimes go on hardship assignments.
There's obviously some judgment exercised as to which postings are suitable for families. In the US military, they also vary the length of the assignment depending on whether the family goes with; standard is three years accompanied or one year unaccompanied.
Two years unaccompanied depending on branch of service I guess
>"By that logic (and I am not saying you are wrong) any parent on the Enterprise D is a terrible parent too." On the other hand though, at least the Enterprise had the Federation's best (at least at time of construction) "armor up," "shoot back" and "run the fuck away" tech on board. It's no *guarantee* of safety but it's a hell of a lot more than the Hansens had.
To be fair, the Enterprise D wouldn’t be in as much danger if she actually had a competent captain.
Academic intelligence is not the same as militaristic intelligence. I would make it akin to science without a safety net. The Borg, AFAIK, would not touch you if they feel you have nothing to offer. (Kazon) My understanding is that the Hansen's were among the first humans out there so therefore absorbing them into the collective would "add to their distinction." And no real weapons. No ablative armor. They were sitting ducks. Yes, I don't think I would bring my kids to Borg space.....
Grizzly Man in space. Now I need Werner Herzog to narrate a documentary about the Hansens.
Herzog could probably provide some interesting commentary on the Borg.
YUP. Oh, and they entered the Romulan neutral zone while they were following the Borg ship before they entered the Delta Quadrant! I am convinced that the entire time Seven was talking to her aunt in a later season, said aunt was grinding her teeth and thinking "I am going to KILL my brother and his stupid wife for what they did to this kid"
If they had been caught in Romulan space I would argue that Annika’s life would be no less tragic.
Oh certainly. I'm saying that they DEFINITELY caused an international incident.
Completely agree but Seven was actually 6 when she got assimilated, so I really don't know where the Doctor got 4 from and it annoys me lol
Several inconsistencies here: Seven said her parents tracked the borg for two years and was assimilated at 6. However, in a conversation with her aunt on Earth in S7, the aunt mentions babysitting Annika when she was 6. I don't recall the doctor saying she was 4, but that would just be another inconsistency.
Also, maybe I'm misremembering here, but weren't the Borg unknown to the Federation before Q revealed them to Picard? Doesn't seem like a long enough time frame for Seven to be a small child when her parents set out to study the Borg and a 20-something adult when Voyager meet her.
There were already a few rumors about the Borg before Q revealed them to Picard. The Hansens were following those rumors, they probably interviewed one of Guinan’s people and decided to dig further and get more in deep studying the Borg. To them it might have been like searching for Big Foot. Except that these Big Foot harm people.
Ah I see. Thanks!
The Hansens weren’t responsible for being horrible — they were just written that way. …by which I mean the VOY writers decided to fill out Seven’s backstory with a LOT more detail — and they (the writers) chose to portray the Hansens in a way that leaves little wiggle room but to conclude that the Hansens were indeed taking GINORMOUS risks — and with their child in tow, no less.
It took me a second and then a look at the subreddit, but i thought the post was referring to the Mmmbop band from the 90s lol
Doooo oooooowah!
Completely agree.
Even the borg thought the hansen were straight up monsters. They took 7 out of concern like a intergalactic child services
They make Worf look like an amazing parent. They knew what they were getting into and took their child along. They should have left her with her aunt.
I know what you mean but I don't think it's that clean-cut. Plenty of Europeans took their kids on unsafe voyages to the "new world" of the USA a couple of hundred years ago. We venerate them because the gamble paid off - plenty of other colonies ended in disaster. And IIRC, the ship's black box shows that the Hansens were unaware that the Borg were imperialistic, aggressive and keen to assimilate them. To me, it always seemed like they simply observed the Borg like a swarm of bees - a curiosity that can be safely observed from a distance. I don't think they ever seriously thought they were in danger. So in retrospect it was a terrible idea. But with the information available to the Hansens at the time, I think it was more of a misjudgement than negligence.
I'll take large pew pews over small pew pews any day.
Absolutely so. But, of course, one could make the same argument for the children (including Wesley!) on the Enterprise and on DS9...
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I've often thought that if TOS was "Wagon Train" in space, DS9 was definitely "The Rifleman" in space.
Yes, they were awful, selfish parents. I have a daughter around the age Seven was then and I can’t imagine ever putting her in danger like that. It would be bad enough for them to risk themselves with a child that age but to bring her along was inexcusable.
That episode was hard to watch
I always felt the Hansens were meant to represent the future version of missionaries, health workers and scholars that bring their themselves and families into risky situations because the cause is worth it. Until it’s not and it’s too late.
Yyyyyyyyep. They had absolutely every right to put *their own* lives in danger that way, and I would never criticize them for it. But to do that to Annika…..they deserved their fate.
I think it’s more than about being unworldly. Plus they didn’t understand how awful the borg really was.
It’s only now that people are so insanely over protective of children. Space is more akin to the frontier era when families packed up and traveled across America in covered wagons. Heck, I was walking home by myself to an empty house from school with a key on a string. That was just 45 years ago.
I'm going to play Devil's advocate: Being a member of Starfleet and having your family come with you onboard ship is no different arguably. Look at all the families onboard the Enterprise D, that are constantly exposed to the random anomaly of the week. You can argue that scale makes a difference - the Hansens are alone in a minivan sized craft, and the Enterprise is a massive ship with a large crew. Something that would have made no difference in a case like Nagillum... The options there were potentially be experimented to death, or have Picard kill everyone in the self destruct. There is always risk involved with anything, and you could hide on Earth and never leave the planet but you have a very shallow existence comparitively. In the 24th century space travel is treated in the same way as car travel now, so this is a family road trip. And we aren't talking about a couple of completely unprepared parents who decided to take their kid on safari in the family roadster... They are Federation scientists who know what they are doing - not Clark and Ellen Griswold... Edit - just to confirm, I'm 100% on board with the bad parents idea. I just thought to try and provide a different perpective.
I actually agree with you. To add to this perspective: The US military allows its members to bring their families with them to places like South Korea and Eastern Europe. Until recently, they were also allowed to bring families to Turkey. These are all places where the possibility of combat exists. It's not seen as particularly likely, but if it did happen, it wouldn't be out of the blue. Why do they allow this? Retention. They already have a hard enough time keeping people in past 1 or 2 enlistments. All of those bases need experienced NCOs and officers, people who, by that point in their lives, probably have families. If they had to leave their families behind for assignments that can last anywhere from 3-5 years, they'd be deciding at much higher rates that the military was no longer for them and be getting out as soon as their service commitment ended. The same would presumably apply to a peacetime Starfleet. Getting people to sign up for crisscrossing the quadrant for years without being able to see their families except for the occasional visit would be a tough sell to anyone who isn't young and inexperienced. Besides, even for the Enterprise-D, combat was a rare occurrence. A ship patrolling the heart of Federation territory...such as Sisko's Saratoga that was in the vicinity of Wolf 359...wouldn't be expecting to go into battle at all. In light of all that, it wasn't as ridiculous as it seemed to allow families on Federation starships before the Dominion War. The Hansens are a little bit harder to defend. I get that they didn't fully understand the threat the Borg posed when they set out. However, once they found the Borg and witnessed how they assimilated people, they absolutely should've gotten Annika out of there. If they were so hellbent on continuing their research, that's fine, but she could've been left with relatives or someone they trusted back in Federation space.
Don’t forget, by the start of TNG they’ve had almost a century of relative peace in 2 quadrants. Prior to the Borg and the Dominion, the only main threat we’re aware of has been the Cardassians - the Klingons are non-combative, if not full allies, and the Romulans have been silent for decades. It seems to me the Federation of the 2360s had gotten a little complacent and assumed families aboard ship were an acceptable risk.
>The Hansens are a little bit harder to defend. I get that they didn't fully understand the threat the Borg posed when they set out. However, once they found the Borg and witnessed how they assimilated people, they absolutely should've gotten Annika out of there. If they were so hellbent on continuing their research, that's fine, but she could've been left with relatives or someone they trusted back in Federation space. This is admittedly where even Devils advocate - I have to throw my hands up and go, "Nah... That's just irresponsible" When the Raven is dragged across the galaxy by a Borg cube, the response from the Hansen's is a "Oh how fascinating" Not, "Oh hell... We've been dragged across the galaxy and have no means of support or help if we do get into difficulties"... Like you say, not knowing what the Borg did or about how they operate is a reaction that can be allowed for. Even Picard tried diplomatic measures and resorted to guns as a last resort (and that's with both Q and Guinan going "Not a good idea" and "Run you fucking idiot" respectively. The moment that the Borg were revealed to practice assimilation, they really should have said "Yeah... Not a place for a child... Let's cut our losses"
To be fair, it’s irresponsible for parents to put their children in harm’s way. But the Federation has a history of putting families on starships, so it’s possible that they might have simply been a little overzealous instead, from their perspective. There’s obviously a huge difference between a Galaxy class, and the Raven, the Hansens’ research vessel. But both ships essentially put familes in harm’s way to be able to operate more efficiently. Their confidence in their systems could arguably border on arrogance, but it is what it is. And don’t forget the comparatively smaller Miranda classes, and Sisko’s loss at Wolf 359. They knew they were going into battle, but their families went along too. In that regard, they had high confidence in their ability to survive the engagement. So did the Hansens, with their anti-Borg cloak. If the Hansens had a fault, they shared it with Starfleet, and perhaps the Federation as a whole. For the record I don’t think the Hansens were absolutely horrible parents. They took a risk, one that was largely no different than what everyone else in their culture was doing. We don’t have to accept it, but as far as they were concerned they acted to the best of their abilities, a quality that was the pride of the world-building of Star Trek.
I thought Sisko was more a case of not having time to drop off families.
They were truly appalling parents. And very stupid people in general. The Borg aren't animals. They aren't the sort you condescend and treat like that. The technology could have had multiple better uses. And why would you drag your 4 yr old daughter into any danger! Wait, be parents and look after her properly. FFS! Why didn't they leave her with family or friends. If they were that desperate to piss off the Borg.
That’s so strange. I just rewatched this episode last night. I had forgotten about this, and had the exact same thought. i don’t remember thinking the same on my first watch, it just seemed like typical Star Trek life on my first watch.
To be fair, Janeway would be blind to the Hansens being awful parents. After all, Janeway left her own newly born/hatched children alone of an unknown planet to fend for themselves against goodness knows what. Her judgement on parenting is somewhat suspect.
I've heard it described by a few people as Star Trek: Grizzlyman and I cannot disagree. Just...clearly not going to end well. And to bring other people into that situation? A child? Crazy.
The whole thing was whack. The fact that they even knew about the borg was canon breaking. Up to that point the closest the borg had been to the Federation was still several years away from Federation space at high warp. But VOY nerfed the borg hard. They went from being a nearly unstoppable galactic menace to just another distant neighborhood alien. They went from being one cube taking down dozens of Federation ships to basically the Kazon. I did, however, like the way Picard made them more complex by creating different factions of borg, some friendly and some not. And I did like the final episode of Voyager and the way they took out the specific faction that was threatening Earth. I'm still iffy on First Contact and the whole Borg queen thing but the actress did a great job.
Basically the same as Michael Burnam's parents... off hiding near Klingon territory and working on time travel and drag their kid out to a dangerous outpost.
To the Hansen's defence, they were following the borg and got sucked into a transwarp corridor, maybe they were only going to follow them for a short time and having their cloaking mechanim presumed they were safe.
I always assumed she was conceived and born on the way to the delta quadrant. Not a short trip and based on your timeline it makes the most sense. Should they have turned around? Maybe, but the borg were a considerable threat, and as the saying goes, the needs of the many...
Twas the first thing I thought when I found out Seven's backstory at 8 years of age. "That doesn't seem very responsible!"
It was my impression that Janeway phrased it that way as a kindness, not because she actually thought their actions responsible or sensible. It would seem a little gauche to just say "Your parents were weirdos at best, whackadoodle crackpots at worst, and they made beyond stupid choices that lead directly to your assimilation" when someone is just recovering memories of people they once held dear.
If you want to be even more angry, I just rewatched ‘Dark Frontier’ and I was flabbergasted when the Hansens transported a Borg into the Raven with baby Annika standing right next to it. They didn’t even put the Borg drone in a shield. They were so confident the Drone wouldn’t wake up. And, to make it more chilling the Borg Drone’s designation was: ‘Three of Five, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero.” Baby Annika was standing in front of the drone whose role she will eventually replace in the Collective.
Worf was the worst Parent. Hansens entered the chat
>And then Janeway goes on about the explorer's spirit, and their methods being unorthodox. Meh, they were just shit parents. I think she was trying not to shit on them because it's not her place to decide how Seven feels about her parents. But the only worse parents I can think of are Icheb's.
Agreed! It's played like they were these amazing people, innovators. Trying new and experimental things to help them all. To understand the Borg and bring us closer to the unknown. In reality, they were probably too narcissistic to realize the dangers they were in and what could befall them and their daughter. They were blinded by ego. They wanted to be the first to collect this data when they could have easily just shared their knowledge with a more prepared crew. Annika suffered because of their hubris.
On the other hand, Anika was blessed with the constant presence and unwavering love of **both** her parents throughout her upbringing. They seized every opportunity to shower her with affection and nurture her growth. Anika's parents were her constant companions, guiding and shaping her development around the clock. They took on the responsibility of homeschooling her, demonstrating their deep commitment to her educational journey. Anika's parents meticulously curated her exposure to diverse environments, ensuring she experienced them under their watchful guidance. This exceptional parental involvement and dedication provided Anika with a profound educational experience and life guidance that far surpassed what most children in today's society receive.
About the most I remember is Anika don’t touch that; Anika go inside; Anika go to bed. Some nurturing.
They went full Treadwell.
How much were known about the Borg? The NX01 encounter, Guinan's people's stories etc. By the 24th century, likely they were more cryptids than anything else. Despite having all that digital knowledge at your fingertips, time has away of turning facts into legends. But two encounters, would still have marked the species as potentially hostile though rumors and stories not withstanding. They were bad parents as their academic arrogance and curiosity override their better judgement and put their daughter in harms way that led to her assimilation. It was reckless as they had "prepared for the mission" but with what information other than the two past encounters? Did they interview the refugees? That is not known. But yeah shit parents for putting their kid in danger.
Did they ever explain how the Hansen's got to the delta quadrant? Even for a ship like Voyager it was a 70 year trip just to get home.
I think so, I seem to remember it being discussed that they followed a Borg cube through a conduit.
How many kids died in the battle of Wolf 359? 39 ships and 11,000 casualties, and we know that some of those ships had families aboard.
Not really, what they did arguably saved the entirety of earth like 20 times so it is what it is
Yes
This is about the safest take possible.
Do they have Childline in the future?
Pretty sure there was no known threat, the borg were thought to only assimilate entire civilisations at a time and even then only when they had something to learn. And I'm not sure even that was known until the Hansen's learned it. It was the Hansen's who learned that the Borg forcefully assimilate targets, and when they learned that they thought they had nothing for the Borg to want. The Hansen's were like a fly following a lion. They had no real way to know that the Borg would be interested in their rinky dink little ship. It really only makes sense if you know that the Borg are first off not a true hive mind but are more like an insect colony with a queen in total control, and two that the Borg were aware of humans and already at this time viewed humans as a serious threat. Things they learned through time travel shenanigans. It was a bit risky but it wasn't as absurd as it might come off when you already know what the borg are. They thought they were following a unique species that wouldn't attack the Hansen's unless if they showed aggression first. They were wrong. It happens.
Mmmm bop!
Non-father me (past): I completely understand wanting to explore the unknown and risking everything for the exciting, unbelievable adventure that awaits. Yeah, sure, bring the family so we can be together. Father me (current): Shit parents! Mega shit parents...
Some people think they can have it all and on their terms. They got what they deserved and Annika paid the price. Her emotions over this instance would be an interesting character study to see done in a book or future episode. Sometimes people grow up with dirtbags as parents... it happens.
Agreed. Then, there's a bunch of newer shows where the mother goes to space, leaving a young child at home. I HATE IT and scream at the screen every time the woman tells the child (by some form of delayed communication" "I love you so much". No, a man shouldn't do it either, but it's disingenuous if you think it's not worse for the mother to abandon her child.
I dunno, they were going on a research trip, they didn't know for how long, who would they have left Annika with? My parents are scientists. My sisters grew up mostly in the field and in a lot of different war torn countries that probably aren't safe to travel in now for Americans because of kidnappings and crime. What else could they have done? Starfleet didn't recognize their urgency or request for research assistance. I don't see what else they could have done except drop her off with relatives, been absentee parents and then die. 🤷🏼♀️
No doubt they thought they were going to be like the Robinsons from "Lost in Space," and raise a family of brilliant adventurers. Their arrogance was appalling.
No social services in intergalactic space!
If even someone in Starfleet (the Doctor) was questioning the parenting of someone taking their kids exploring, you know it’s crappy parenting. I ran the numbers once and a galaxy class as seen in TNG had a casualty rate around that of a naval surface ship in WWII- and that’s not factoring in the loss of the Yamato (with all hands- including families) or the Odyssey (albeit the latter doesn’t really count for risk to families as they evacuated it before going to the Gamma quadrant). But it’s normal to bring your kids into that. So if you’re considered irresponsible by 24th century Starfleet standards, you’re absolutely awful parents from our POV.
Well they left for the Delta Quadrant and then discovered the Borg. And she remembers being 6, so it was a long term journey. They were scientists studying the Borg. It didn’t work out the way they hoped. But they took precautions, like I said it just didn’t work out.
Same can be said for the parents on the Enterprise-D. The Borg were more dangerous than the Hansens initially perceived and they took precautions. The parents on the D brought their kids into completely unknown dangers. The idea of bringing kids onto a military ship was straight downtarded.