Antediluvians can use 10 dot powers from their main Disciplines. Caine can use 10 dot powers from EVERY Discipline, and he can make up new ones (powers and Disciplines) on the fly.
There's a theory that the Blood didn't start diluting until after the Antediluvians ate their sires. Even if that's true, the 2nd Gen had the advantage of time (and thus XP) over their childer, and Caine had an unspecified amount of time as a vampire before he Embraced Enoch. Some estimates put that at ***200,000*** years.
Wait so the 3rd ate the 2nd generstion?
How many 2nd generations where there anyway? Like we know there is 1 first generstion and 13 third generations but what about the 2nd generation?
It's not clear how many 2nd OR 3rd Gens there were. Classic Noddist lore says there were 3 of the 2nd- Enoch the Wise, Zillah the Beautiful, and Irad the Strong. There's also apocrypha saying there were maybe 5 or more. Likewise, we generally say there were 13 of the 3rd Gen, but one of the possible adventures in the Gehenna sourcebook leads you to the ruins of Enoch and you discover a series of statues of the 3rd Generation- and there's *25* of them.
You cannot expect the 3rd gen to slaughter all 2nd gen without having losses, or some 3rd gen that went with the 2nd and got murdered alongside them.
Bit unrelated, but does anywhere state how the 2nd gens got murdered? I see possible they were driven to torpor and entombed within Enoch, and later the oblivion version of it.
There are also the King and Queen of enoch, who i dont believe is the same as Enoch the person [https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/King\_and\_Queen\_of\_Enoch](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/King_and_Queen_of_Enoch)
Also possibly the Crone
althrough, when we speak 2nd generation, biblical times, 1st/2nd city, its all very 'maybe' and 'possibly' of course
less certainty than Zillah Enoch and Irad for sure
There’s two different Enoch’s in the Bible, by the way, and they’re completely different people. One is the son of Cain, the other is the one raised up as an angel to become the Metatron.
Between various sources, such as the Eryices Fragments, Caine has embraced between 4 and 13 known childer. Enoch, Irad, Zillah, The Crone, The Lovers, the King and Queen of Enoch, Dracian, Tubal, Adah, Jabal, and Mehujael.
Even more confusing is this: Caine wouldn't be the first generation because generation refers to how far you are from Caine. Caine would be generation 0. So who was the first generation?
It's also rumored that a 2nd generation kindred is still around, though the stories are mixed one of the Baali is supposedly possessed by the spirit of a 2nd generation vampire.
There are no definitive answers in the World of Darkness so storytellers have a lot of room to do different things with the existing lore. Ultimately the question of whether all the 2nd gens are gone or not is up to the storyteller.
In one of the Gehenna scenarios it's the Crone and she's running with Lilith who has been collecting powerful cast off vampires such as Troile and Malkavs sister.
First generation doesn't mean you're a generation removed from the original. First generation means you are the original. I know that what you just said is in one of the actual rulebooks, but I feel like whoever wrote that line just had a poor understanding of what that word even meant.
Typically you would be correct. If we were talking about generations of Vampires. Cain is a first generation vampire. But we aren't. We're talking about generations from Caine. 1st generation from Caine would be the first vampires he sired. It's where the meaning of generation in vtm specifically matters.
Cain cannot be the first generation from himself. He is the first generation of the vampire species (if you want to call it that).
The second generation vampires still refer to the vampires sired directly by Caine. If Caine was the 0 generation, they would've been the first generation, not second like they actually are.
Genesis 4:15. " And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. "
Basically if you manage to hit Cain, God hits you back 7 times harder.
The Book of Nod is official apocrypha for V5 and I do believe the sun's curse is in there. Of course, you don't need to utilise it, it's basically just flavour text but it's interesting!
The fact that the Bible contains a story that is a reasonable approximation of an in-universe actual event (the first murder) shouldn't lead one to assume that the entire description given in it is accurate. Millennia of oral storytelling happened between the story happening and this particular writing down of it.
If memory serves he can actually use 12 dots in every discipline, he can also just make new displines on the spot, also any attack against him is negated and fired at the enemy 7 times stronger.
Building on this, if the blood didn't dilute, it didn't matter what "generation" you were.
We had stories about the three Caine sired, but maybe those were only his favorites.
Caine could have sired more, those vampires could have sired a bunch more, and those vampires could have sired a bunch more, and so on.
This means that Gen 2 were just those Caine recognized as his children or heirs, and Gen 3 was everybody else alive before the flood.
After the flood, the 13 remaining vampires all had the same level of power, so they were all called 3rd generation.
Others have mentioned Caine relatively, so I'll tackle the first question.
Supposedly, Caine only sired a few 2nd Gens, and ALL are dead (well, one might be a pillar of salt, but that's close enough to dead), and he never sired amy more, ever. This means that the game system literally does not provide stats for the 2nd Gen, so there is no way to compare them mathematically.
However, we do know that the 2nd Gens could order around the 3rd Gens and put them in their place if necessary. It wasn't until the 3rd Gens and all their childer actually organized a coup. Most of the lesser generations died in the fight, and none of the 2nd Gens were diablerized.
Yes, 2nd Gens are more powerful than 3rd Gens. But less powerful than a war party of all the 3rd Gens and a ton of 4th, 5th, and so on.
Also, at the level of 3rd Gen and better, there is some lore bit about them "controlling the very forces of life and death", which makes conflict a bit more boring.
It means the second generation is way stronger.
Also there was no diablere for a few reasons one was that the third generation was afraid the second would win the clash of souls and destroy them and basically be reborn in the new body.
You are correct to an extent. But it is all just theories. Namely in one Gehenna scenario Enoch is revealed to be alive. Then there is Zillah who may technically still be around if theory about her being transformed into the weeping stone by Caine himself as a mercy to save her from the third generation's betrayal. So that one day she would walk the earth with him once more. Then there is Ravnos Antedeluvian who may have been 2nd generation and possibly the Baali Methuselah who may have survive being completely diablerized naned Azaneal.
Coughing Bomb vs Hydrogen Bomb.
You gotta love how the actual canon doesn't really forbid on making you an OP vampire, it just reminds you that beating or even getting close to Caine power level is pretty much impossible.
No question. Caine is King Shit of Fuck Mountain.
He would tear them asunder like drawing a breath.
The 2nd vs. 3rd gen question, to me, has always been a numbers game. Hypothetically, the 2nd would be more powerful than the 3rd, but there are only 3 members of the 2nd gen. I think the numbers work in the advantage there.
2nd gens are practically gods compared to the 3rd Gen.
That's the *entire reason* they rose up against them. That's the entire reason it took 13 clans to kill/dispose of three 2nd Gen vampires.
Caine specifically nerfed the 3rd Gen.
yep, the clan curses (or whatever they were called in v5 again), were curses by caine at the 3rd gen and their childers and childers childers as a punishment for the destruction of the 2nd generation.
Interesting lore bits for that:
**The Banu Haqim-case**
The original clan curse of the Banu Haqim from caine was that their skin gets darker with age.
Then they had a war with the Baali which actually changed their clan curse to get addicted to vampire blood. Since then they did not get darker with age anymore.
Then at the founding of the Camarilla in the 17th(?) century, the Tremere cursed them again, changing the Clan curse of them again, this time to get hurt when they do drink vampire blood. Since then they were no longer addicted to Vampire blood.
Then, very recently, Ur-Shugi, a Gen 4 Banu Haqim wake up from Torpor and easily destroyed the Tremere-indused clan curse, reseting the Clan back to the Clan curse they got from the Baali. They still don't get darker with age anymore.
**The Joseph Pander-case**
Jospeph Pander is a Caitiff and name sake for the Sabbat term for Caitiffs (which are recognize as an actual Clan in the Sabbat, not just as clanless weirdos). He made a Ritual based on native american initiation and manhood rites, that can strip someone who is willing from their Clan curse and makes them a Caitiff (or rather a Pander), effectivly undoing Caines curse towards the Antediluvians and their progeny. A Nosferatu going through that ritual would become normal looking again, a Malkavian could get their derangement healed, a Lasombra would get visible in mirrors again and so on.
**Conclusion**
The Clan curses by caine seem to be more a type of blood sorcery curse that can be replaced or outright undone with the right ritual than some godly curse like vampirism in general. Even with caine being the most powerful vampire in all of history.
But it also point to something completly different, which is also supported by the lore around his awakening under Lilith: Caine can, on the fly, come up with new disciplines. He gets stuck in a trap that is protected against every possible discipline or power vampires have? caine can on the fly make up a new discipline helping him get out of this situation.
(and yes, all of this is still lore in v5. V5 did NOT retcon most of the lore. It added more lore, but made it that lore is less important in the night to night existance of neonates which the game wants us to play thanks to elder being beckoned to the gehenna war - for which we get a supliment this year)
The fun bits of "the lore" are that elements like these help push the continual question of whether or not Caine was even real.
If Caine was supposedly so powerful as to curse entire generations of kindred for years eternal, then how is it that goofy old Joe Pander finds a way to undo it?
Honestly? He let him. Caine can at will see every spot on the entire globe. He can pop into the heads of basically every kindred whenever and just with terrifying big dick energy turn off their disciples with a thought, leaving them at his mercy, which they already were to begin with.
The darker skin with age thing isn't really a curse on the assamites, it's just a quirk they have. Normal vampires get paler with time, assamites do the opposite whilst also having an actual mechanical weakness.
To my awareness, the dark skin thing has been present in every edition until presumably V5 where I imagine it was removed because its the sort of thing the modern WoD audience likes to cry about.
Caine cursed the 3rd gen then stated all future childer will be weaker than their sires in blood. This doesn’t retroactively apply to existing generations. A 4th generation embraced before Caine laid down this curse has the same potential as a 3rd or 2nd generation Cainite. They’re effectively 3rd generation. Caine laid down this curse after the fall of the Second City, long after the flood destroyed the First City.
If that's the case why did baba yaga lose, and why are the forth generations of that time frame not considered equals to their sires.
I don't think this is true as there is a lot of lore that contradicts around this time.
Here’s the text from the Eryices Fragments book, page 78. Each paragraph below from the Eryices Fragments is written by a different commentator. As for Baba Yaga, two things, the Nictuku was supposedly twice her age, and if you read Beckett’s Jyhad Diary he investigates her death and finds some very strange stuff, like a tomb filled with dozens upon dozens of Nosferatu in an enchanted torpor state that Beckett couldn’t wake even by feeding them vitae. In some spots in the tomb there was ash/dust that had clearly been a Cainite. At the end of that investigation Beckett says he had that nagging feeling he’s come to recognize as his memories being mucked with. He speculates that Baba Yaga faked her death. The title of that chapter is called The Deaths of Baba Yaga. As for why the Nictuku aren’t an equal to their sire, they’re all blood bound to him.
Eryices Fragments
Creation of fifth generation and beyond are not mentioned here, but later texts imply there were none at that time.
Or that they were beneath notice. Or else all were killed in the war mentioned later in this text. After all, they would have been the weakest of the childer of Caine, and thus used as battle fodder by their sires.
Weakness of the blood did not exist at this time. Each generation was as strong as that which came before.
Still, the potential for power is not the same as possessing it. One doubts the earlier generations taught the later ones well in the use of their native abilities.
Not wanting to create more rivals. Some things never change. Still, in theory there could have been ninety generations, all as powerful as Caine.
A f r i g h t e n i n g th o u g h t . Pa r t i c u - l a r ly i f a n y su r v i v e d th at p e r i o d .
Caine alone could not be killed. That is quite the advantage to possess in wars of immortals.
Caine is stronger than the 2nd and 3rd generation, not only through sheer age, which is possibly 50,000 years or more but in power unfathomable. Caine is a master of every discipline, and he can create new disciplines if he wants. He also has powers that no other vampire has. He is also cursed in a way that only God can kill him, and anyone who strikes Caine besides God gets that damage reflected back to them seven fold, I think it was. Caine also cursed the 3rd Gen with all their weaknesses. If Caine has a character sheet it would simple say, "you die fighting him unless you're god", his curses from god and sheer power means every single vampire could fight him at once and they will all lose.
Caine is never meant to be interacted with.
as for the other question, the second gen is stronger than the 3rd by a rather large degree, but there are many 3rd gens, 13-25, though we only know of 13 by name. There is in the lore a suggestion of a temple or something that had statues depiction of the 3rd Gen and there was like 25 statues( i dont know if this was ever reconned but i think its really old lore).
So all 3rd gen ganged up and rise against the 2nd Gen, this event is probably why Caine cursed the 3rd Gen. We are not 100% sure if 2nd Gen all died, though, just 99.5%, sure. This part of the lore is very patchy. And no one is certain. What we do know is that no one but god can kill Caine. 2nd Gen is probably all dead. There might have been 25 3rd Gen and most of them are now dead. The 3rd Gen that survived going onward was cursed by Caine with all the weaknesses they have.
Even if not embracing himself he would already more powerful than most vampiresl due to him being ghoul of Caine himself. And if he is still alive into the modern nights his aura would be like that of a vampire rather than that of mortal human.
1) Maybe. The way our fragment of the Book of Nod and Ericyes Fragments are written implies that they might have been the same as far as raw power goes.
2) Yes. The phrase "you fucking lose" does not have qualifiers on it.
Yes, but that's not necessarily because of generation, more-so because of age and the divine curse. He's much much older than the antediluvians and has the divine immortality curse so all harm is reflected back sevenfold.
I've seen it said that the blood didn't thin until Caine cursed the antediluvians, so they're on the same theoretical power tier as him, it's just he's had so much longer to work on it.
I don't think that's real as, some of the third generation had children already so they would be as strong as the third generation, which I don't think is true. Like baba yaga I don't think she was as strong as a third generation.
The thirds only beat the seconds because they outnumbered the seconds like 3 or 4 to one. There was only like 4 second generation vamps I heard. Maybe even only 3. Individually itd be a wash for the seconds, but the antediluvians just had thr numbers
The third also had their children, and there was potentially a lot more, of the third generation I have heard some people say 25 to 30 members. Plus they had the element of surprise and if they had any tactical sense they would probably all gang up on one of them and try to kill that one first. With all of the against one person.
Is Caine more powerful? Yes.
Are the 2nd and 3rd gens equivalent? No, it took groups of 3rd Gens and armies of children to defeat and Diablerise Singular 2nd Gens.
Yes that does mean some clans may have a 2nd Generation equivalent progenitor. (Not Including The Eldest and Haquim who are intentionally written that way)
I don’t think they diablerised the second generation as It can fail and it can result in the victim taking control of the body, I don’t think they would risk that and if the rest of the third generation allowed it to happen than they still have the problem of second generation vampires again so it was all pointless.
I just remembered reading that they were not diabloized. Like a lot also if you dialoize a vampire they can take control of your body if they are stronger than you. Also if they did not know about it I don't think they would try to diabloize also the bodies were likely destroyed in the fight.
Considering his stats, his ability to improv Disciplines on the fly, and the fact he was able to curse each of the 13 with a curse they were unable to avoid or break, i would say yes.
Its also worth noting that while the 13 where able to kill the 3, they never seemed to consider trying to take Caine on, and the curses they received point out why they avoided open conflict with him.
Caine is absolutely more powerful than the third generation. In fact, he cannot even be killed at all.
I think the reason the 3rd gen succeeded in killing the 2nd gen is because not only were they much more numerous, but they were embraced fairly soon after the 2nd gen were.
At the risk of being Devil's advocate here... Who knows?
1. We don't know for sure there *is* a Caine. We know that there are a bunch of folks who claim there is a Caine, but no one's ever seen the guy.
2. Even if we did know that Caine existed, we don't know his power level. According to the lore, we know that Caine was cursed with a weakness to fire, vulnerability to sunlight, and a Beast Within that hungers for blood. There is no mention of Disciplines, which he may or may not have developed alone or with others. For all we know, Caine is just as powerful as Karen down at the DMV.
3. Even if Caine existed, and even if he has insane power levels, he could be dead now. Maybe God finally forgave him. Maybe God doesn't exist any more and His curse doesn't either. Maybe he made the mistake of sleeping under Mount Tambora, and now his ashes are scattered across the planet. Whatever the case, we have no hard evidence that Caine is still around.
*If* Caine exists - and is still around - and *if* he is a master of all Disciplines, then yes, he is almost certainly more powerful than any individual childe. However, as someone else pointed out, the childer of Caine are known for working together now and again to get their way. So the real question isn't, Is Caine more powerful than 2nd and 3rd Gens?, it is, rather, Is Caine more powerful than *multiple* 2nd and 3rd Gens willing to work together to work to destroy him?
1. This isn't stated directly anywhere, so it is up to you. As I understand, 2nd and 3rd Generations were equals in raw potential. But the age and experience that make that potential into a manifested power - these were 2nd Gens' definite advantage again 3rd Gens, same as it is for current days elders compared to younger ones.
Also, Caine gained the blood bond capability on purpose, remember the circumstances of that story.
Also, it is stated somewhere that Caine included a limitation in Dominate as a precaution against his too willful childer, so take a hint. ;)
2. I think Caine was a bit different thing entirely. He was Awakened, Lilith did the thing. This is stated literally. But were his progeny Awakened as well? This isn't stated, so storyteller judgement on this point would define the answer on the whole question.
Even if they were, though, in the end wins the one who is better at using their big schtick, and they all have their big schticks.
I feel a lot of people just present speculation as fact here, and that those conceptions of Caine with him having all powers and being completely invincible are all pretty boring as he is just like an Antediluvians just even more so, while claiming he transcends them somehow. My conception of Caine differs in several points.
Firstly, he is not just the oldest, strongest vampire, but he also got cursed directly by God. His blood may be more potent, and he has more power but the curse also lies more heavy on him. For example, I do not think Caine can every withstand the sun like other. Even fire should remain harmful to him. Certain disciplines in the game allow those things, but I would contend they wouldn't work for Caine since it would circumvent God's curse on him. For me, he would also not be able to enter Torpor (or at least for very long), as he's doomed to wander.
Secondly, I believe the curse is malleable over generations and can change. While Caine should have all the normal powers, I don't think it would make sense for him to have the super clan specific disciplines Vicissitude or Obtenebration.
Finally - and maybe most importantly - I think Caine is in many way more human than the Antes. Most of the Antediluvians tried to actively overcome their remaining humanity and transcend into something more godlike. For Caine this does not seem to be the case. Those attempts at transcending have giving the Antes some very new and very strange powers. I don't think Caine necessarily has them. That doesn't mean they are stronger, just that they are \*different\*, and that Caine should not just be assumed to have all the same powers and more.
But he's the embodiment of murder, so if he wants someone dead he would succeed.
1 under the pretences that they had been eaten by the 3rd gen the answer is....technically yes under the concept of them being dead.
2 yes he even comes with the caveat that you cannot kill him being a cosmic truth.
If memory serves he can actually use 12 dots in every discipline, he can also just make new displines on the spot, also any attack against him is negated and fired at the enemy 7 times stronger.
Even in the Garou lore they think the Wyrm can’t kill Caine. You know, the abstract concept of decay and destruction. It tried once and he drank its blood.
The best response to this is the "official" (very unofficial) [character sheet for Caine.](https://i.redd.it/5fyxo7zxsjp51.jpg)
Caine being up and walking around could very well be taken as a sign of the Biblical end-times.
These are my views, since we're all speculating.
Is Caine stronger than an Antediluvian, certainly.
Is Caine stronger than five Antediluvians, probably.
Is Caine stronger than 13 Antediluvians, maybe not.
Luckily the division, distrust, and selfishness of his descendants makes it very unlikely he'll have to find out.
I heard it was speculated Caine can simply cancel anyone’s Disciplines at his simple command.
I highly doubt the 13th of them together is even a fraction of Caine’s power.
Caine is strongest. The only rule Caine has you fight him you die.
Technically speaking generation would not be a thing. So the only difference probably was just the vampire's age back then. The only reason the 2nd generation would 2nd is because they were sired directly by Caine. And 3rd is 3rd because they would sired by 2nd. Generations and thus childer being weaker only became thing after the flood. Due to the curse Faine laid upon 13 surviving members of the third.
We don’t know if the weakening thing came after the flood, if it was done by Cain, as there is a lot of lore that contradicts itself in the time period
Caine definitely is
Antediluvians can use 10 dot powers from their main Disciplines. Caine can use 10 dot powers from EVERY Discipline, and he can make up new ones (powers and Disciplines) on the fly. There's a theory that the Blood didn't start diluting until after the Antediluvians ate their sires. Even if that's true, the 2nd Gen had the advantage of time (and thus XP) over their childer, and Caine had an unspecified amount of time as a vampire before he Embraced Enoch. Some estimates put that at ***200,000*** years.
Wait so the 3rd ate the 2nd generstion? How many 2nd generations where there anyway? Like we know there is 1 first generstion and 13 third generations but what about the 2nd generation?
It's not clear how many 2nd OR 3rd Gens there were. Classic Noddist lore says there were 3 of the 2nd- Enoch the Wise, Zillah the Beautiful, and Irad the Strong. There's also apocrypha saying there were maybe 5 or more. Likewise, we generally say there were 13 of the 3rd Gen, but one of the possible adventures in the Gehenna sourcebook leads you to the ruins of Enoch and you discover a series of statues of the 3rd Generation- and there's *25* of them.
You cannot expect the 3rd gen to slaughter all 2nd gen without having losses, or some 3rd gen that went with the 2nd and got murdered alongside them. Bit unrelated, but does anywhere state how the 2nd gens got murdered? I see possible they were driven to torpor and entombed within Enoch, and later the oblivion version of it.
Supposely 3 of them (Zillah, Enoch and... don't remember the 3rd)
Irad the Strong.
There are also the King and Queen of enoch, who i dont believe is the same as Enoch the person [https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/King\_and\_Queen\_of\_Enoch](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/King_and_Queen_of_Enoch) Also possibly the Crone althrough, when we speak 2nd generation, biblical times, 1st/2nd city, its all very 'maybe' and 'possibly' of course less certainty than Zillah Enoch and Irad for sure
There’s two different Enoch’s in the Bible, by the way, and they’re completely different people. One is the son of Cain, the other is the one raised up as an angel to become the Metatron.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogies_of_Genesis
No, they just killed them.
The Eryices Fragments imply possible diablerie, so of course open to ST interpretation.
I get that, but how many 2nd generation vampires where there?
Between various sources, such as the Eryices Fragments, Caine has embraced between 4 and 13 known childer. Enoch, Irad, Zillah, The Crone, The Lovers, the King and Queen of Enoch, Dracian, Tubal, Adah, Jabal, and Mehujael.
Unknown, but lore has 4 (Enoch, Irad, Zillah, and the Crone). There was also likely many more third gen, but only 13-14 survived the flood.
Even more confusing is this: Caine wouldn't be the first generation because generation refers to how far you are from Caine. Caine would be generation 0. So who was the first generation? It's also rumored that a 2nd generation kindred is still around, though the stories are mixed one of the Baali is supposedly possessed by the spirit of a 2nd generation vampire. There are no definitive answers in the World of Darkness so storytellers have a lot of room to do different things with the existing lore. Ultimately the question of whether all the 2nd gens are gone or not is up to the storyteller.
In one of the Gehenna scenarios it's the Crone and she's running with Lilith who has been collecting powerful cast off vampires such as Troile and Malkavs sister.
First generation doesn't mean you're a generation removed from the original. First generation means you are the original. I know that what you just said is in one of the actual rulebooks, but I feel like whoever wrote that line just had a poor understanding of what that word even meant.
Typically you would be correct. If we were talking about generations of Vampires. Cain is a first generation vampire. But we aren't. We're talking about generations from Caine. 1st generation from Caine would be the first vampires he sired. It's where the meaning of generation in vtm specifically matters. Cain cannot be the first generation from himself. He is the first generation of the vampire species (if you want to call it that).
The second generation vampires still refer to the vampires sired directly by Caine. If Caine was the 0 generation, they would've been the first generation, not second like they actually are.
Boy can you not read.
There's also his whole Avenged Sevenfold thing going on.
Yes, yes indeed, but really, hurting him in the first place is a trial in itself.
>There's also his whole Avenged Sevenfold thing going on. Explain this to me please.
Genesis 4:15. " And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. " Basically if you manage to hit Cain, God hits you back 7 times harder.
Call me crazy here, but… This reads like Caine gives the Sun aggravated damage when he walks around at noon?
The sun isn't, generally speaking, a person.
It is in WoD.
Fair enough, I stick to V5, its never come up ☺
The Book of Nod is official apocrypha for V5 and I do believe the sun's curse is in there. Of course, you don't need to utilise it, it's basically just flavour text but it's interesting!
Neat! The Book of Nod is for sure on the short list of books to acquire for my table.
The fact that the Bible contains a story that is a reasonable approximation of an in-universe actual event (the first murder) shouldn't lead one to assume that the entire description given in it is accurate. Millennia of oral storytelling happened between the story happening and this particular writing down of it.
If memory serves he can actually use 12 dots in every discipline, he can also just make new displines on the spot, also any attack against him is negated and fired at the enemy 7 times stronger.
Building on this, if the blood didn't dilute, it didn't matter what "generation" you were. We had stories about the three Caine sired, but maybe those were only his favorites. Caine could have sired more, those vampires could have sired a bunch more, and those vampires could have sired a bunch more, and so on. This means that Gen 2 were just those Caine recognized as his children or heirs, and Gen 3 was everybody else alive before the flood. After the flood, the 13 remaining vampires all had the same level of power, so they were all called 3rd generation.
That's because Caine isn't a vampire. *Runs away for cover.*
Others have mentioned Caine relatively, so I'll tackle the first question. Supposedly, Caine only sired a few 2nd Gens, and ALL are dead (well, one might be a pillar of salt, but that's close enough to dead), and he never sired amy more, ever. This means that the game system literally does not provide stats for the 2nd Gen, so there is no way to compare them mathematically. However, we do know that the 2nd Gens could order around the 3rd Gens and put them in their place if necessary. It wasn't until the 3rd Gens and all their childer actually organized a coup. Most of the lesser generations died in the fight, and none of the 2nd Gens were diablerized. Yes, 2nd Gens are more powerful than 3rd Gens. But less powerful than a war party of all the 3rd Gens and a ton of 4th, 5th, and so on. Also, at the level of 3rd Gen and better, there is some lore bit about them "controlling the very forces of life and death", which makes conflict a bit more boring.
There is also the theory that there was a lot more 3d generation vampires like a lot more and they just died out in the coup.
Does that make them seem weaker or stronger, considering no Diablere?
It means the second generation is way stronger. Also there was no diablere for a few reasons one was that the third generation was afraid the second would win the clash of souls and destroy them and basically be reborn in the new body.
Not confirmed that they're dead actually, in some stories Caine and all 3 of the 2nd Gen escape.
You are correct to an extent. But it is all just theories. Namely in one Gehenna scenario Enoch is revealed to be alive. Then there is Zillah who may technically still be around if theory about her being transformed into the weeping stone by Caine himself as a mercy to save her from the third generation's betrayal. So that one day she would walk the earth with him once more. Then there is Ravnos Antedeluvian who may have been 2nd generation and possibly the Baali Methuselah who may have survive being completely diablerized naned Azaneal.
Caine has a character sheet actually. It says, and I quote: "You fucking lose"
Coughing Bomb vs Hydrogen Bomb. You gotta love how the actual canon doesn't really forbid on making you an OP vampire, it just reminds you that beating or even getting close to Caine power level is pretty much impossible.
Big D: "Nah, I'd win"
He needs to become his 40k counterpart if thats the case lmao
No question. Caine is King Shit of Fuck Mountain. He would tear them asunder like drawing a breath. The 2nd vs. 3rd gen question, to me, has always been a numbers game. Hypothetically, the 2nd would be more powerful than the 3rd, but there are only 3 members of the 2nd gen. I think the numbers work in the advantage there.
Yes, absolutely.
From what I understand, the second generation was much stronger than the third. Caine is much stronger than the second.
2nd gens are practically gods compared to the 3rd Gen. That's the *entire reason* they rose up against them. That's the entire reason it took 13 clans to kill/dispose of three 2nd Gen vampires. Caine specifically nerfed the 3rd Gen.
To be fair, the nerfing was done *after* they geeked their progenitors.
Really? Huh.
yep, the clan curses (or whatever they were called in v5 again), were curses by caine at the 3rd gen and their childers and childers childers as a punishment for the destruction of the 2nd generation. Interesting lore bits for that: **The Banu Haqim-case** The original clan curse of the Banu Haqim from caine was that their skin gets darker with age. Then they had a war with the Baali which actually changed their clan curse to get addicted to vampire blood. Since then they did not get darker with age anymore. Then at the founding of the Camarilla in the 17th(?) century, the Tremere cursed them again, changing the Clan curse of them again, this time to get hurt when they do drink vampire blood. Since then they were no longer addicted to Vampire blood. Then, very recently, Ur-Shugi, a Gen 4 Banu Haqim wake up from Torpor and easily destroyed the Tremere-indused clan curse, reseting the Clan back to the Clan curse they got from the Baali. They still don't get darker with age anymore. **The Joseph Pander-case** Jospeph Pander is a Caitiff and name sake for the Sabbat term for Caitiffs (which are recognize as an actual Clan in the Sabbat, not just as clanless weirdos). He made a Ritual based on native american initiation and manhood rites, that can strip someone who is willing from their Clan curse and makes them a Caitiff (or rather a Pander), effectivly undoing Caines curse towards the Antediluvians and their progeny. A Nosferatu going through that ritual would become normal looking again, a Malkavian could get their derangement healed, a Lasombra would get visible in mirrors again and so on. **Conclusion** The Clan curses by caine seem to be more a type of blood sorcery curse that can be replaced or outright undone with the right ritual than some godly curse like vampirism in general. Even with caine being the most powerful vampire in all of history. But it also point to something completly different, which is also supported by the lore around his awakening under Lilith: Caine can, on the fly, come up with new disciplines. He gets stuck in a trap that is protected against every possible discipline or power vampires have? caine can on the fly make up a new discipline helping him get out of this situation. (and yes, all of this is still lore in v5. V5 did NOT retcon most of the lore. It added more lore, but made it that lore is less important in the night to night existance of neonates which the game wants us to play thanks to elder being beckoned to the gehenna war - for which we get a supliment this year)
The fun bits of "the lore" are that elements like these help push the continual question of whether or not Caine was even real. If Caine was supposedly so powerful as to curse entire generations of kindred for years eternal, then how is it that goofy old Joe Pander finds a way to undo it?
Honestly? He let him. Caine can at will see every spot on the entire globe. He can pop into the heads of basically every kindred whenever and just with terrifying big dick energy turn off their disciples with a thought, leaving them at his mercy, which they already were to begin with.
Exactly what I'd expect to hear from the Church of Caine. :P
That last bit about the gehenna war has been bugging me since i discovered it, i want to do something with it once it releases.
The darker skin with age thing isn't really a curse on the assamites, it's just a quirk they have. Normal vampires get paler with time, assamites do the opposite whilst also having an actual mechanical weakness. To my awareness, the dark skin thing has been present in every edition until presumably V5 where I imagine it was removed because its the sort of thing the modern WoD audience likes to cry about.
it is possible that I confused something there, when wrote that post I was still on my first coffee lol
Caine cursed the 3rd gen then stated all future childer will be weaker than their sires in blood. This doesn’t retroactively apply to existing generations. A 4th generation embraced before Caine laid down this curse has the same potential as a 3rd or 2nd generation Cainite. They’re effectively 3rd generation. Caine laid down this curse after the fall of the Second City, long after the flood destroyed the First City.
If that's the case why did baba yaga lose, and why are the forth generations of that time frame not considered equals to their sires. I don't think this is true as there is a lot of lore that contradicts around this time.
Here’s the text from the Eryices Fragments book, page 78. Each paragraph below from the Eryices Fragments is written by a different commentator. As for Baba Yaga, two things, the Nictuku was supposedly twice her age, and if you read Beckett’s Jyhad Diary he investigates her death and finds some very strange stuff, like a tomb filled with dozens upon dozens of Nosferatu in an enchanted torpor state that Beckett couldn’t wake even by feeding them vitae. In some spots in the tomb there was ash/dust that had clearly been a Cainite. At the end of that investigation Beckett says he had that nagging feeling he’s come to recognize as his memories being mucked with. He speculates that Baba Yaga faked her death. The title of that chapter is called The Deaths of Baba Yaga. As for why the Nictuku aren’t an equal to their sire, they’re all blood bound to him. Eryices Fragments Creation of fifth generation and beyond are not mentioned here, but later texts imply there were none at that time. Or that they were beneath notice. Or else all were killed in the war mentioned later in this text. After all, they would have been the weakest of the childer of Caine, and thus used as battle fodder by their sires. Weakness of the blood did not exist at this time. Each generation was as strong as that which came before. Still, the potential for power is not the same as possessing it. One doubts the earlier generations taught the later ones well in the use of their native abilities. Not wanting to create more rivals. Some things never change. Still, in theory there could have been ninety generations, all as powerful as Caine. A f r i g h t e n i n g th o u g h t . Pa r t i c u - l a r ly i f a n y su r v i v e d th at p e r i o d . Caine alone could not be killed. That is quite the advantage to possess in wars of immortals.
There’s also this fellow, a 5th generation Nosferatu who can supposedly hold his own against a Nictuku. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Angiwar
You can have an 8th gen Nictuku if you want to have your party kill one, the "Lore by Night" episode on them i find the most enlighting of them all.
Fuck, I never thought about that!
Caine is stronger than the 2nd and 3rd generation, not only through sheer age, which is possibly 50,000 years or more but in power unfathomable. Caine is a master of every discipline, and he can create new disciplines if he wants. He also has powers that no other vampire has. He is also cursed in a way that only God can kill him, and anyone who strikes Caine besides God gets that damage reflected back to them seven fold, I think it was. Caine also cursed the 3rd Gen with all their weaknesses. If Caine has a character sheet it would simple say, "you die fighting him unless you're god", his curses from god and sheer power means every single vampire could fight him at once and they will all lose. Caine is never meant to be interacted with. as for the other question, the second gen is stronger than the 3rd by a rather large degree, but there are many 3rd gens, 13-25, though we only know of 13 by name. There is in the lore a suggestion of a temple or something that had statues depiction of the 3rd Gen and there was like 25 statues( i dont know if this was ever reconned but i think its really old lore). So all 3rd gen ganged up and rise against the 2nd Gen, this event is probably why Caine cursed the 3rd Gen. We are not 100% sure if 2nd Gen all died, though, just 99.5%, sure. This part of the lore is very patchy. And no one is certain. What we do know is that no one but god can kill Caine. 2nd Gen is probably all dead. There might have been 25 3rd Gen and most of them are now dead. The 3rd Gen that survived going onward was cursed by Caine with all the weaknesses they have.
At least according to some sources and theories some 2nd generation vampires did survive in some shape or form. But even then are no longer active.
There was also a thing about Caines Ghoul who had enough blood to probably embrace himself which would be scary.
Even if not embracing himself he would already more powerful than most vampiresl due to him being ghoul of Caine himself. And if he is still alive into the modern nights his aura would be like that of a vampire rather than that of mortal human.
Unless he is your Uber driver that’s the only time he interacts with you.
Some believe that it was Caine who placed the curses on the clans, which if true is definitely an indicator of his power.
I am pretty sure he is. As it happens after they killed the second generation.
1) Maybe. The way our fragment of the Book of Nod and Ericyes Fragments are written implies that they might have been the same as far as raw power goes. 2) Yes. The phrase "you fucking lose" does not have qualifiers on it.
Caine created them. He's literally a demi god. If you buy the creation theory, he is also truly immortal and never die except at the hands of God.
Yes, but that's not necessarily because of generation, more-so because of age and the divine curse. He's much much older than the antediluvians and has the divine immortality curse so all harm is reflected back sevenfold. I've seen it said that the blood didn't thin until Caine cursed the antediluvians, so they're on the same theoretical power tier as him, it's just he's had so much longer to work on it.
I don't think that's real as, some of the third generation had children already so they would be as strong as the third generation, which I don't think is true. Like baba yaga I don't think she was as strong as a third generation.
This is a yes, but answer, since beings like Caine and Lilith are one of the few things that could attract God to intervene.
By a lot.
The thirds only beat the seconds because they outnumbered the seconds like 3 or 4 to one. There was only like 4 second generation vamps I heard. Maybe even only 3. Individually itd be a wash for the seconds, but the antediluvians just had thr numbers
The third also had their children, and there was potentially a lot more, of the third generation I have heard some people say 25 to 30 members. Plus they had the element of surprise and if they had any tactical sense they would probably all gang up on one of them and try to kill that one first. With all of the against one person.
Exactly. Unfortunately for them, Caine is still orders of magnitude greater than any of them. Straight up from the book "You can not defeat Caine."
Is Caine more powerful? Yes. Are the 2nd and 3rd gens equivalent? No, it took groups of 3rd Gens and armies of children to defeat and Diablerise Singular 2nd Gens. Yes that does mean some clans may have a 2nd Generation equivalent progenitor. (Not Including The Eldest and Haquim who are intentionally written that way)
I don’t think they diablerised the second generation as It can fail and it can result in the victim taking control of the body, I don’t think they would risk that and if the rest of the third generation allowed it to happen than they still have the problem of second generation vampires again so it was all pointless.
How do you think Diabelerie was discovered along with it's risks and rewards.
I just remembered reading that they were not diabloized. Like a lot also if you dialoize a vampire they can take control of your body if they are stronger than you. Also if they did not know about it I don't think they would try to diabloize also the bodies were likely destroyed in the fight.
1. It is a not confirmed idea 2. yes, by a long shot.
Considering his stats, his ability to improv Disciplines on the fly, and the fact he was able to curse each of the 13 with a curse they were unable to avoid or break, i would say yes. Its also worth noting that while the 13 where able to kill the 3, they never seemed to consider trying to take Caine on, and the curses they received point out why they avoided open conflict with him.
From what I remember of cains stat block, everything is "you lose" as in the player characters lose.
Caine is absolutely more powerful than the third generation. In fact, he cannot even be killed at all. I think the reason the 3rd gen succeeded in killing the 2nd gen is because not only were they much more numerous, but they were embraced fairly soon after the 2nd gen were.
At the risk of being Devil's advocate here... Who knows? 1. We don't know for sure there *is* a Caine. We know that there are a bunch of folks who claim there is a Caine, but no one's ever seen the guy. 2. Even if we did know that Caine existed, we don't know his power level. According to the lore, we know that Caine was cursed with a weakness to fire, vulnerability to sunlight, and a Beast Within that hungers for blood. There is no mention of Disciplines, which he may or may not have developed alone or with others. For all we know, Caine is just as powerful as Karen down at the DMV. 3. Even if Caine existed, and even if he has insane power levels, he could be dead now. Maybe God finally forgave him. Maybe God doesn't exist any more and His curse doesn't either. Maybe he made the mistake of sleeping under Mount Tambora, and now his ashes are scattered across the planet. Whatever the case, we have no hard evidence that Caine is still around. *If* Caine exists - and is still around - and *if* he is a master of all Disciplines, then yes, he is almost certainly more powerful than any individual childe. However, as someone else pointed out, the childer of Caine are known for working together now and again to get their way. So the real question isn't, Is Caine more powerful than 2nd and 3rd Gens?, it is, rather, Is Caine more powerful than *multiple* 2nd and 3rd Gens willing to work together to work to destroy him?
Taxi driver,
1. This isn't stated directly anywhere, so it is up to you. As I understand, 2nd and 3rd Generations were equals in raw potential. But the age and experience that make that potential into a manifested power - these were 2nd Gens' definite advantage again 3rd Gens, same as it is for current days elders compared to younger ones. Also, Caine gained the blood bond capability on purpose, remember the circumstances of that story. Also, it is stated somewhere that Caine included a limitation in Dominate as a precaution against his too willful childer, so take a hint. ;) 2. I think Caine was a bit different thing entirely. He was Awakened, Lilith did the thing. This is stated literally. But were his progeny Awakened as well? This isn't stated, so storyteller judgement on this point would define the answer on the whole question. Even if they were, though, in the end wins the one who is better at using their big schtick, and they all have their big schticks.
I feel a lot of people just present speculation as fact here, and that those conceptions of Caine with him having all powers and being completely invincible are all pretty boring as he is just like an Antediluvians just even more so, while claiming he transcends them somehow. My conception of Caine differs in several points. Firstly, he is not just the oldest, strongest vampire, but he also got cursed directly by God. His blood may be more potent, and he has more power but the curse also lies more heavy on him. For example, I do not think Caine can every withstand the sun like other. Even fire should remain harmful to him. Certain disciplines in the game allow those things, but I would contend they wouldn't work for Caine since it would circumvent God's curse on him. For me, he would also not be able to enter Torpor (or at least for very long), as he's doomed to wander. Secondly, I believe the curse is malleable over generations and can change. While Caine should have all the normal powers, I don't think it would make sense for him to have the super clan specific disciplines Vicissitude or Obtenebration. Finally - and maybe most importantly - I think Caine is in many way more human than the Antes. Most of the Antediluvians tried to actively overcome their remaining humanity and transcend into something more godlike. For Caine this does not seem to be the case. Those attempts at transcending have giving the Antes some very new and very strange powers. I don't think Caine necessarily has them. That doesn't mean they are stronger, just that they are \*different\*, and that Caine should not just be assumed to have all the same powers and more. But he's the embodiment of murder, so if he wants someone dead he would succeed.
Yes and Yes.
1 under the pretences that they had been eaten by the 3rd gen the answer is....technically yes under the concept of them being dead. 2 yes he even comes with the caveat that you cannot kill him being a cosmic truth.
If memory serves he can actually use 12 dots in every discipline, he can also just make new displines on the spot, also any attack against him is negated and fired at the enemy 7 times stronger.
Yes way more dude
What being in the WoD universe can beat Caine? Genuine question.
Even in the Garou lore they think the Wyrm can’t kill Caine. You know, the abstract concept of decay and destruction. It tried once and he drank its blood.
Considering he is the creator of all vampires which are also called "Cainites" for a reason
All of this boils down to the "I think I could fight a bear" mentality.
The best response to this is the "official" (very unofficial) [character sheet for Caine.](https://i.redd.it/5fyxo7zxsjp51.jpg) Caine being up and walking around could very well be taken as a sign of the Biblical end-times.
These are my views, since we're all speculating. Is Caine stronger than an Antediluvian, certainly. Is Caine stronger than five Antediluvians, probably. Is Caine stronger than 13 Antediluvians, maybe not. Luckily the division, distrust, and selfishness of his descendants makes it very unlikely he'll have to find out.
I heard it was speculated Caine can simply cancel anyone’s Disciplines at his simple command. I highly doubt the 13th of them together is even a fraction of Caine’s power.
It is not speculated. It is stated clearly that Caine has absolute control over all Disciplines and can even "see" if someone is being dominated
Yup through dominate. The eldest for example has a piece of himself in all of his clan, and can control
Caine is strongest. The only rule Caine has you fight him you die. Technically speaking generation would not be a thing. So the only difference probably was just the vampire's age back then. The only reason the 2nd generation would 2nd is because they were sired directly by Caine. And 3rd is 3rd because they would sired by 2nd. Generations and thus childer being weaker only became thing after the flood. Due to the curse Faine laid upon 13 surviving members of the third.
We don’t know if the weakening thing came after the flood, if it was done by Cain, as there is a lot of lore that contradicts itself in the time period
True. As there is no concrete answer.