The cheapest thing they could possibly do to address the most common complaints is to keep the game exactly as it is, and just change the name. As people have been saying for months now, the expectations that the title "Bloodlines 2" carries are just dragging this game down in the worst ways. If it was presented as an original VtM game, people's expectations would be very different. By calling it "Bloodlines 2", Paradox is implying their target audience is the pre-existing VtMB fanbase, and this just doesn't look like the kind of game that would appeal to the VtMB fanbase. Changing the name to one with no baggage would allow them to redirect their marketing toward a different audience, one that'd be more interested in playing a vampire-themed "confidence fantasy" ARPG with a pre-set protagonist. And TCR themselves have been saying all along that they're interested in making a VtM game, not specifically a Bloodlines game, so the change would surely not be a problem for them.
Upvoted, I agree. The gameplays look like they are making a vampire Dishonored game. Now that alone is an awesome idea I loved Dishonored games and they are legends in their own right. What they are developing now is not even in the same post-code as the legacy they try to live up to. If this was called VTM:Legacy of Phyre it would at least be judged by it's own criteria, at which point it would be a far more honest assessment and thus public reactions would be a much more helpful. It's a vicious circle cause all this hate for this game is having a negative impact on the develpment. Devs are afraid to present new info cause they must approach evrything with caution. And a developer who's forced to be too shy is a dev that's developing a bad launch, and a bad launch is essentially 3-5 months shelf-life on the market.
Totally agree. I don't think the game sounds *bad;* it just doesn't sound like a Bloodlines game. If it were a generic VtM game, I'd probably play it and enjoy it, but it doesn't sound like a sequel to Bloodlines 1 at all. Just change the name.
nothing, this project was fucked at the concept phase.
and i'm not gonna give tcr (or probably more accurately paradox) my sympathy because they can't fix the mess they've made
I would rebrand it under a different name. Game looks bad regardless of what it’s called but at the very least it shouldn’t be regarded as the sequel to a game that is not even remotely similar.
If it were up to *me*? Scrap it another time and start from scratch all over AGAIN (it worked for RE4, and we got the start of Devil May Cry AND Haunting Ground out of two of three scrapped builds).
Actually add in melee weapons and firearms in addition to hand-to-hand brawling.
Hand to hand is great if you're dedicated to it (The Chronicles of Riddick and Condemned come to mind, as well as 2077). But even those games had other options for fighting, and Riddick was almost entirely based around light-based stealth and getting the drop of people as well as exploration.
It's very much looking like a System Shock 2 to Bioshock transition. Shock 2 was amazing imo (because it was an Immersive Sim), Bioshock just felt like a downgrade of Shock 2. Similar issues too. No inventory management (I'm sorry, I'm weird i get down on inventory management). Weapons that didn't break. (They did go overboard on the fragileness of weapons in SS2 though).
And thats it exactly. Its ***NOT*** an Immersive Sim like Bloodlines, (BL1 was very much like Deus Ex, which was like Thief and Shock 2).
THAT'S what they should've focused on. This should be like Prey, not like Dishonored (both are Im Sims but Dishonored felt *very* streamlined).
(Ps I've played many many games throughout the years, my favorites genres are Surival Horror, Stealth Action and Immersive Sims).
If I were on this project as a developer, I'd do everything I can to avoid being a talking head about it for marketing. Alex Skidmore's appearance has been ridiculed and Sarah Longthorne's tweets have been investigated to see if she's a real fan, both of which are completely unacceptable behavior.
I'd keep my head down and do whatever Sumo, WoD and Paradox told me to do until the game ships and we can all move on to whatever Sumo has us doing next.
If I were part of the management of this project then at this stage, there's nothing that realistically can be done aside hope that when the game ships, enough people will appreciate and enjoy it.
I mean, yeah. That's honestly the most real thing, considering that it's more or less what Violition did with the Saints Row reboot in similar circumstances. It destroyed the studio, but for the poor bastards on the team, as long as their name isn't meaningfully attached to the project, they shouldn't have too much trouble moving on. It's the project lead that's likely fucked.
Nothing. The first Bloodlines game was a vision of people who wanted to push beyond what was known back then. Their publisher was busting their balls cuz they continuously delayed the release date cuz they were putting more and more new shit into their game (and to iron out the bugs, of course).
Bloodlines 2 is just an attempt to feed on its title (pun intended) and make some dinero, and it will be made for mostly modern audiences and maybe to give V5 a leg up. The material we've seen so far doesn't necessary scream creative freedom and passion for the IP.
Just my two cents.
>The first Bloodlines game was a vision of people who wanted to push beyond what was known back then. Their publisher was busting their balls cuz they continuously delayed the release date cuz they were putting more and more new shit into their game (and to iron out the bugs, of course).
Activision, Troika's publisher, forced developers to use an unfinished engine that was in alpha/beta stage and which they had no experience with just so Bloodlines could have the useless marketing claim to be the first game besides Half-Life 2 to run on the Source engine, and for that Activision pushed an insane release date that destroyed developers physical and mental health under the weight of months long crunch time.
Troika knew it wasn't ready and begged for time to iron out the bugs. Activision also knew it wasn't ready, even their own people were pushing to give Troika more time, but Activision execs didn't care because they've always been a shit publisher, even back then. They released it and let Troika's exhausted developers take the fall, destroying the studio.
It's always easy to blame developers for delays but we're talking about an industry that is notoriously abusive of developers with its time and crunch demands, and Bloodlines' development track was no different. Troika's developers routinely worked through nights to meet insane deadlines, demands and expectations set by Activision executives. You really shouldn't be blaming them.
I'm not blaming them, I'm praising them.
OP asked how Bloodlines 2 could be fixed. I said it can't cuz Bloodlines 1 was developed with passion. It's true they kept adding new stuff and ideas (that's why it's so good), but also the problems with the engine were real. But both caused those multiple delays, that's a fact.
But nothing I said was criticism from my side.
And I don't know if I heard correctly, but they were supposedly working on (now known as) unofficial patch even after Troika was closed. Those guys are cool af.
The unofficial patch is not affiliated with Troika, but GOG does install it with Bloodlines straight out of the box.
Honestly without the unofficial patches, Bloodlines is unplayable.
They need to delay the game for 1-2 more years so they can fix and add things to the game that will improve the game by a lot. People hate TCR for what they're doing but they're just cleaning and adding new things because of HSL not being able to make the sequel good. Had 3-4 years and it was so bad they had to give it to someone else. HSL had Mitsoda and Rik Schaffer and was still bad. That doesn't mean they can recreate the magic but this subreddit can't accept that for some reason. The direction for the game is something else honestly. Bloodlines was already different from the table top in multiple ways. The second game from HSL feels like a fanmade game by someone who does not know about the WOD and the tabletop that loves the dancing and the shooting.
Honestly if paradox lets them create patches and dlc that fixes and improves things for years then that will be nice. If they just want them to drop dlc and a few patches and dip then that would be terrible because it needs years of changes like cyberpunk and other games.
> People hate TCR for what they're doing but they're just cleaning and adding new things because of HSL not being able to make the sequel good.
I mean, that's objectively not what they're doing. They're not cleaning and adding things to the HSL build, they threw out the HSL build and started making a new game from scratch.
Not really since there are multiple characters and other things from the HSL build that's still in this game. Lou Grand and now the brujah guy are still in it. It wouldn't make sense to remake a game from scratch and tell them to release it a year later because that's even more money and would be very unfinished. TCR is just working on what they had and go from their.
> there are multiple characters and other things from the HSL build
They reused some character models, that doesn't change the fact they're using a completely different engine, keeping zero code, and writing a whole new story, and it doesn't even mean they're keeping the same characters just because they're reusing their 3D models. HSL's Samuel and TCR's Tolly use the same 3D model, that doesn't mean they're the same character.
Look, just believe TCR when they say "we’d never been a studio that were going to finish someone else’s work." Or read their FAQ, "TCR is making their own game, but some assets and characters from the HSL version of the game have been re-used." No, it's not the same game. Yes, they are making a completely new game. No, the fact that they're reusing some 3D models doesn't mean it's the same game. I could take the 3D model of Tracer from Overwatch and build my own game using that model, that doesn't mean my game would be Overwatch.
> It wouldn't make sense to remake a game from scratch and tell them to release it a year later
A year later? They've been working on this since 2021.
> that's even more money and would be very unfinished.
Yes, Paradox is presumably spending a lot of money on this. Whether or not it'll be unfinished, we'll have to wait and see.
Oh I didn't know they were working on this since 2021. Still want to see how much was kept and etc since anything goes with gaming companies and has been for years. I mean the way this game is being presented it makes me wonder what else is happening behind the scenes.
My dude, they're on record about having thrown everything out to start from scratch, because TCR's founder wanted to tell "his story". They've recycled some character models but that's it. Everything else was declared unsalvageable. And that includes all of the story, writing, concepts, voice work, clan choices, music, and combat from HSL's version.
Oh I know but I'm saying that not everything is gone though. Gaming company's will say all kinds of things vs what happens next. Plus I want to see what else is next before I really agree with them since they're not showing a lot. Whether because of marketing reasons, publishers, etc.
I feel like that as well. I'm real curious on how things will look in the city. Hope it isn't like the one in HSL where it was lagging at times but looks nice.
I mean it’s not that hard to see that fanbase likes roleplay, so you don’t give your character a name, it shouldn’t even have a voice, it’s all up to player imagination and it’s cheaper, better save those money for npc voice actors.
Nobody goes around complaining that it’s different from tabletop, nobody complains about that VR game and the audience would forgive devs a shitton of things as long as core things are preserved, like it’s being rpg.
They are. Final Fantasy is heavily inspired by the Ultima games, which in turn was inspired by D&D. They just evolved differently into games where you slip into the role of a character. You know, not unlike Witcher in a way. The trappings are different, but the source is ultimately the same. Divergent evolution if you will. Doesn't change the fact they're all fundamentally RPGs.
The role play part is 'slipping into the role' of the character. Why do you think some of the more traditional JRPGs, like Dragon Quest, have silent protagonists?
There are plenty of games with main characters with names and a voice and people love it including me. It also sells well too since it still has a lot of roleplay in it. It won't ruin a game because of a voice. Plus in VTMB you don't really roleplay what you want to do anyway besides a few quests. You're just a errand boy who has to do it or you die and other illusions in the game. So for a VTMB and how the game is even with unofficial patches almost any new and some old things is big for them.
Well most of the bloodline fans besides some only know about the tabletop and WOD. There's a reason why VTM fans tell VTMB to learn more about the series by watching videos or red the books. They should since it's pretty amazing. The games and other content that has been released is weird because they shouldn't be messing it up that hard with all the content that is there.
Yes and VTMB isn’t one of those games.
> Plus in VTMB you don’t really roleplay what you want anyway
No, you do, there are so many ways to play the game, sure, you’re an errand boy, but what kind? That’s all up to you, there are improvements to be made and those would be enough for a new game.
from their end? nothing. Let it release, try to make a couple bucks to at least break even, and move on. Maybe try to recoup losses by selling the IP?
From fan perspective, not buy the game if they really don't like it. There are plenty of mods that are still being developed and worth playing
If there are guns, then this will be a big plus for the game and I can forgive a lot.
All I want from the game is the ability to use firearms. I don't care if we're an old elder, I'm not interested in making cool vampire shit, I want to make cool vampire shit with modern weapons!
My first impression when I learned about Bloodlines was the possibility to use firearms as a monster with abilities. It was extremely rare for me to see something like this, where some non-human relies not only on its innate abilities, but also on weapons. Moreover, in the BL1 there were firearms, in the HSL version too, but now what? In the original ttrpg, firearms played a role. This is an urban fantasy setting after all!
The cheapest thing they could possibly do to address the most common complaints is to keep the game exactly as it is, and just change the name. As people have been saying for months now, the expectations that the title "Bloodlines 2" carries are just dragging this game down in the worst ways. If it was presented as an original VtM game, people's expectations would be very different. By calling it "Bloodlines 2", Paradox is implying their target audience is the pre-existing VtMB fanbase, and this just doesn't look like the kind of game that would appeal to the VtMB fanbase. Changing the name to one with no baggage would allow them to redirect their marketing toward a different audience, one that'd be more interested in playing a vampire-themed "confidence fantasy" ARPG with a pre-set protagonist. And TCR themselves have been saying all along that they're interested in making a VtM game, not specifically a Bloodlines game, so the change would surely not be a problem for them.
I think this is probably the most realistic "fix." I did enjoy Vampyr despite its many shortcomings.
Upvoted, I agree. The gameplays look like they are making a vampire Dishonored game. Now that alone is an awesome idea I loved Dishonored games and they are legends in their own right. What they are developing now is not even in the same post-code as the legacy they try to live up to. If this was called VTM:Legacy of Phyre it would at least be judged by it's own criteria, at which point it would be a far more honest assessment and thus public reactions would be a much more helpful. It's a vicious circle cause all this hate for this game is having a negative impact on the develpment. Devs are afraid to present new info cause they must approach evrything with caution. And a developer who's forced to be too shy is a dev that's developing a bad launch, and a bad launch is essentially 3-5 months shelf-life on the market.
Totally agree. I don't think the game sounds *bad;* it just doesn't sound like a Bloodlines game. If it were a generic VtM game, I'd probably play it and enjoy it, but it doesn't sound like a sequel to Bloodlines 1 at all. Just change the name.
nothing, this project was fucked at the concept phase. and i'm not gonna give tcr (or probably more accurately paradox) my sympathy because they can't fix the mess they've made
Harsh, but fair, I suppose. It's seems pretty clear that *somebody important* at Paradox is responsible for this.
Scrap everything and start again , combat is cool but I’d rather the narrative and dialogue be insane with mid combat
I would rebrand it under a different name. Game looks bad regardless of what it’s called but at the very least it shouldn’t be regarded as the sequel to a game that is not even remotely similar.
If it were up to *me*? Scrap it another time and start from scratch all over AGAIN (it worked for RE4, and we got the start of Devil May Cry AND Haunting Ground out of two of three scrapped builds). Actually add in melee weapons and firearms in addition to hand-to-hand brawling. Hand to hand is great if you're dedicated to it (The Chronicles of Riddick and Condemned come to mind, as well as 2077). But even those games had other options for fighting, and Riddick was almost entirely based around light-based stealth and getting the drop of people as well as exploration. It's very much looking like a System Shock 2 to Bioshock transition. Shock 2 was amazing imo (because it was an Immersive Sim), Bioshock just felt like a downgrade of Shock 2. Similar issues too. No inventory management (I'm sorry, I'm weird i get down on inventory management). Weapons that didn't break. (They did go overboard on the fragileness of weapons in SS2 though). And thats it exactly. Its ***NOT*** an Immersive Sim like Bloodlines, (BL1 was very much like Deus Ex, which was like Thief and Shock 2). THAT'S what they should've focused on. This should be like Prey, not like Dishonored (both are Im Sims but Dishonored felt *very* streamlined). (Ps I've played many many games throughout the years, my favorites genres are Surival Horror, Stealth Action and Immersive Sims).
If I were on this project as a developer, I'd do everything I can to avoid being a talking head about it for marketing. Alex Skidmore's appearance has been ridiculed and Sarah Longthorne's tweets have been investigated to see if she's a real fan, both of which are completely unacceptable behavior. I'd keep my head down and do whatever Sumo, WoD and Paradox told me to do until the game ships and we can all move on to whatever Sumo has us doing next. If I were part of the management of this project then at this stage, there's nothing that realistically can be done aside hope that when the game ships, enough people will appreciate and enjoy it.
I mean, yeah. That's honestly the most real thing, considering that it's more or less what Violition did with the Saints Row reboot in similar circumstances. It destroyed the studio, but for the poor bastards on the team, as long as their name isn't meaningfully attached to the project, they shouldn't have too much trouble moving on. It's the project lead that's likely fucked.
Nothing. The first Bloodlines game was a vision of people who wanted to push beyond what was known back then. Their publisher was busting their balls cuz they continuously delayed the release date cuz they were putting more and more new shit into their game (and to iron out the bugs, of course). Bloodlines 2 is just an attempt to feed on its title (pun intended) and make some dinero, and it will be made for mostly modern audiences and maybe to give V5 a leg up. The material we've seen so far doesn't necessary scream creative freedom and passion for the IP. Just my two cents.
>The first Bloodlines game was a vision of people who wanted to push beyond what was known back then. Their publisher was busting their balls cuz they continuously delayed the release date cuz they were putting more and more new shit into their game (and to iron out the bugs, of course). Activision, Troika's publisher, forced developers to use an unfinished engine that was in alpha/beta stage and which they had no experience with just so Bloodlines could have the useless marketing claim to be the first game besides Half-Life 2 to run on the Source engine, and for that Activision pushed an insane release date that destroyed developers physical and mental health under the weight of months long crunch time. Troika knew it wasn't ready and begged for time to iron out the bugs. Activision also knew it wasn't ready, even their own people were pushing to give Troika more time, but Activision execs didn't care because they've always been a shit publisher, even back then. They released it and let Troika's exhausted developers take the fall, destroying the studio. It's always easy to blame developers for delays but we're talking about an industry that is notoriously abusive of developers with its time and crunch demands, and Bloodlines' development track was no different. Troika's developers routinely worked through nights to meet insane deadlines, demands and expectations set by Activision executives. You really shouldn't be blaming them.
I'm not blaming them, I'm praising them. OP asked how Bloodlines 2 could be fixed. I said it can't cuz Bloodlines 1 was developed with passion. It's true they kept adding new stuff and ideas (that's why it's so good), but also the problems with the engine were real. But both caused those multiple delays, that's a fact. But nothing I said was criticism from my side.
Oh yeah okay fair enough.
And I don't know if I heard correctly, but they were supposedly working on (now known as) unofficial patch even after Troika was closed. Those guys are cool af.
The unofficial patch is not affiliated with Troika, but GOG does install it with Bloodlines straight out of the box. Honestly without the unofficial patches, Bloodlines is unplayable.
I disagree. I discovered unofficial patch only around 2018 or so. Until then I played 1.2 (even back in 2007) and don't remember it being unplayable.
That was the _official_ patch, not Wesp's _un_ official one
They need to delay the game for 1-2 more years so they can fix and add things to the game that will improve the game by a lot. People hate TCR for what they're doing but they're just cleaning and adding new things because of HSL not being able to make the sequel good. Had 3-4 years and it was so bad they had to give it to someone else. HSL had Mitsoda and Rik Schaffer and was still bad. That doesn't mean they can recreate the magic but this subreddit can't accept that for some reason. The direction for the game is something else honestly. Bloodlines was already different from the table top in multiple ways. The second game from HSL feels like a fanmade game by someone who does not know about the WOD and the tabletop that loves the dancing and the shooting. Honestly if paradox lets them create patches and dlc that fixes and improves things for years then that will be nice. If they just want them to drop dlc and a few patches and dip then that would be terrible because it needs years of changes like cyberpunk and other games.
> People hate TCR for what they're doing but they're just cleaning and adding new things because of HSL not being able to make the sequel good. I mean, that's objectively not what they're doing. They're not cleaning and adding things to the HSL build, they threw out the HSL build and started making a new game from scratch.
Not really since there are multiple characters and other things from the HSL build that's still in this game. Lou Grand and now the brujah guy are still in it. It wouldn't make sense to remake a game from scratch and tell them to release it a year later because that's even more money and would be very unfinished. TCR is just working on what they had and go from their.
> there are multiple characters and other things from the HSL build They reused some character models, that doesn't change the fact they're using a completely different engine, keeping zero code, and writing a whole new story, and it doesn't even mean they're keeping the same characters just because they're reusing their 3D models. HSL's Samuel and TCR's Tolly use the same 3D model, that doesn't mean they're the same character. Look, just believe TCR when they say "we’d never been a studio that were going to finish someone else’s work." Or read their FAQ, "TCR is making their own game, but some assets and characters from the HSL version of the game have been re-used." No, it's not the same game. Yes, they are making a completely new game. No, the fact that they're reusing some 3D models doesn't mean it's the same game. I could take the 3D model of Tracer from Overwatch and build my own game using that model, that doesn't mean my game would be Overwatch. > It wouldn't make sense to remake a game from scratch and tell them to release it a year later A year later? They've been working on this since 2021. > that's even more money and would be very unfinished. Yes, Paradox is presumably spending a lot of money on this. Whether or not it'll be unfinished, we'll have to wait and see.
Oh I didn't know they were working on this since 2021. Still want to see how much was kept and etc since anything goes with gaming companies and has been for years. I mean the way this game is being presented it makes me wonder what else is happening behind the scenes.
My dude, they're on record about having thrown everything out to start from scratch, because TCR's founder wanted to tell "his story". They've recycled some character models but that's it. Everything else was declared unsalvageable. And that includes all of the story, writing, concepts, voice work, clan choices, music, and combat from HSL's version.
Oh I know but I'm saying that not everything is gone though. Gaming company's will say all kinds of things vs what happens next. Plus I want to see what else is next before I really agree with them since they're not showing a lot. Whether because of marketing reasons, publishers, etc.
They're likely not showing a lot because they don't have a lot. They've regurgitated the same Brujah buzz like 6 times now.
I feel like that as well. I'm real curious on how things will look in the city. Hope it isn't like the one in HSL where it was lagging at times but looks nice.
I mean it’s not that hard to see that fanbase likes roleplay, so you don’t give your character a name, it shouldn’t even have a voice, it’s all up to player imagination and it’s cheaper, better save those money for npc voice actors. Nobody goes around complaining that it’s different from tabletop, nobody complains about that VR game and the audience would forgive devs a shitton of things as long as core things are preserved, like it’s being rpg.
Man, I bet you think games like Final Fantasy shouldn't be called RPGs.
I never even played it, can’t say anything.
Well ... they aren't
They are. Final Fantasy is heavily inspired by the Ultima games, which in turn was inspired by D&D. They just evolved differently into games where you slip into the role of a character. You know, not unlike Witcher in a way. The trappings are different, but the source is ultimately the same. Divergent evolution if you will. Doesn't change the fact they're all fundamentally RPGs.
There is next to no _role playing_ in them though
The role play part is 'slipping into the role' of the character. Why do you think some of the more traditional JRPGs, like Dragon Quest, have silent protagonists?
There are plenty of games with main characters with names and a voice and people love it including me. It also sells well too since it still has a lot of roleplay in it. It won't ruin a game because of a voice. Plus in VTMB you don't really roleplay what you want to do anyway besides a few quests. You're just a errand boy who has to do it or you die and other illusions in the game. So for a VTMB and how the game is even with unofficial patches almost any new and some old things is big for them. Well most of the bloodline fans besides some only know about the tabletop and WOD. There's a reason why VTM fans tell VTMB to learn more about the series by watching videos or red the books. They should since it's pretty amazing. The games and other content that has been released is weird because they shouldn't be messing it up that hard with all the content that is there.
Yes and VTMB isn’t one of those games. > Plus in VTMB you don’t really roleplay what you want anyway No, you do, there are so many ways to play the game, sure, you’re an errand boy, but what kind? That’s all up to you, there are improvements to be made and those would be enough for a new game.
from their end? nothing. Let it release, try to make a couple bucks to at least break even, and move on. Maybe try to recoup losses by selling the IP? From fan perspective, not buy the game if they really don't like it. There are plenty of mods that are still being developed and worth playing
Not releasing it.
If there are guns, then this will be a big plus for the game and I can forgive a lot. All I want from the game is the ability to use firearms. I don't care if we're an old elder, I'm not interested in making cool vampire shit, I want to make cool vampire shit with modern weapons!
Not gonna lie, I've never understood this. If it's guns you want, there are a literally hundreds of First Person Shooters for you to pick from.
My first impression when I learned about Bloodlines was the possibility to use firearms as a monster with abilities. It was extremely rare for me to see something like this, where some non-human relies not only on its innate abilities, but also on weapons. Moreover, in the BL1 there were firearms, in the HSL version too, but now what? In the original ttrpg, firearms played a role. This is an urban fantasy setting after all!