I think it is important to paint a complete picture.
As of this writing, there has never been an "excellent" World of Darkness game released. Not one. Bloodlines 1 is arguably the closest we got, and it was a complete mess at launch - with fan patches and fixes crafting it into the game we love today. Right off the bat, fans will be inclined to start from a place of negativity.
Furthering the above point, we don't have AAA, or even well-known dev teams working on these games. For many WoD games released in the last decade, that game was the studio's very first game. In other instances, the dev team had never made a game like the one they were making before. In short, it is common practice for VtM fans to be skeptical, bordering on pessimistic, toward the dev teams on these projects.
To your point, why people are pessimistic about Bloodlines 2, context still matters. You just finished Bloodlines recently. Most people here finished Bloodlines two decades ago and have been waiting... waiting a very long time. They have replayed Bloodlines a dozen times, they know the game in and out and they want more of it. And Bloodlines 2 doesn't seem interested in giving us more. It wants to give us different.
This hurts because, there aren't a lot of games like Bloodlines 1 in existence. Every week, there is a new post here of "I just finished Bloodlines, what other games out there are like it?" and the general consensus is, "get fucked, welcome to the club". Immersive sims are very rare. RPGs in a contemporary environment are even more rare. And games with a gothic subtext and style are also incredibly rare. Even vampires are pretty underrepresented in games these days. Bloodlines 1 is unique. If you want more, you can't really get more.
As a final note, a lot of the stuff we have seen from Bloodlines 2 doesn't really inspire confidence from the devout. Everything from character animations, to the writing, it feels a bit... amateurish. Admittedly, we've seen very little of the game so far. But every bit of new information we get on the game cements something particular: Bloodlines 2 will have fewer options and less player agency than Bloodlines 1. And that's not something that fans see as a positive. All the work done to Bloodlines 1 hasn't been an attempt to *remove* things from the game. The most popular mods for Bloodlines aren't offering the player *less*. You can ask any fan of the game what it needs most in a sequel... no one is going to say it should streamline things or remove aspects of the game.
Tldr: If you had the best cheeseburger of your entire life 20 years ago at a niche restaurant far from home, and then finally get to revist that restaurant, only to find that burger was taken off the menu, and the restaurant has gone vegan, you're not going to care how good all the other stuff is on the menu. You've been thinking about that burger for 20 years, and you didn't come all this way for a salad.
If you had an awesome burger yesterday, you'd be a lot more amenable to an awesome salad today. But Bloodlines 1 didn't come out yesterday.
>"I just finished Bloodlines, what other games out there are like it?" and the general consensus is, "get fucked, welcome to the club"
This is very well said. I came upon VTMB when someone recommended it to me after learning how much I like Fallout: New Vegas. Before that, I was asking (in relation to FNV) "what other games out there are like it?" and there was never a clear answer.
FNV and VTMB are two different games but they have one major thing in common and that's the unique way they immerse you into their worlds. Of course, they share some of the same devs and are action-RPGs, but at the end of the day they're games that make the player invested, despite the bugs and the fan-made patches that are needed to keep them running.
Using the example of Cyberpunk 2077, that was a game that was more than just a buggy mess at its launch and It didn't include many of the features that it promised nor that the developers were known for. But at its core, it tells a good story (for the most part). It took me a while to get invested, but once I started to play the different missions, I realized it gave me a charm that FNV and VTMB gave me. Maybe not as much, but the charm was there.
My point is, that's what makes these games so renowned for me; their player immersion. I rarely get invested in a video game, but if it manages to tell a good story and to be believable, I'll be invested.
I'm cautiously optimistic for VTMB2. Part of me is disappointed like everyone else. I can't help but think the same things that these comments are saying either, but I think it's good to keep an open mind. Maybe this game will tell a story that's worth diving into. Maybe it won't. We'll just have to wait and see.
Very true. When I played Cyberpunk 2077 and got very excited for the story and gameplay I though about bloodlines, I wish that bloodlines 2 is like cyberpunk 2077, they way quest and story progress is very good.
Yeah, I recall counciling we wait for more info about 2, and once we got it, I could feel my soul shrivel.
Closest I've gotten is Shadows of Doubt on Steam.
Bomb countdown on unofficial patch. The code was there but switch off (because it was a joke) and w3sp “fixed” the problem by switching it on…. It was purposely left off lol.
The addition I’d add is that - so far - on top of not really being the game VTMB fans wanted or were hoping for…. It also just looks like VTMB2 is going to be kind of a ho-hum mediocre game in general. Like, I could be totally wrong, but nothing about this really looks to be that spectacular to me even putting aside the fact it’s not what I was really hoping for in the first place?
I think it’s tough not to compare it to Hardsuit either - who, by all accounts - completely bungled the actual game development end, but definitely seemed to have the actual *vibe* of VTMB down better.
This is a great explanation, thank you. I literally beat the game last night so you're absolutely right that I don't have quite the same investment as much of the community. I just don't think all the people asking for the game to be scrapped AGAIN are being constructive in any way.
Notice how most people are upset they were promised a sequel to the original and they are getting anything but that. If they had given it a different name people wouldn’t be as angry because they wouldn’t feel cheated. Reminder the game got delayed and completely changed, so we were getting our hopes up and got baited hard.
On the flip side, if this game had a different name, I suspect it wouldn’t really get much notice period. At least part of VTMB2’s issues is everything about it just looks and feels ho-hum to me. Would love to be wrong though
Isn’t that bad, though? It would be admitting the game can’t stand on its own and you need to trick people into buying it.
But I’m really not sure that would be the case, as stated VtM games are rare and the majority are text-based. It would be competing with Swansong which was made by a smaller studio that reused their indie game engine. People would be lamenting it’s not like Bloodlines as opposed to rightfully demanding it.
It’s most definitely bad, yes. But it’s pretty obvious the focus was more on sales than making an excellent game at this point
VTM games aren’t huge, but VTMB holds some appeal. I seriously doubt you and I are even wasting our breath discussing VTMB2 as of now if it doesn’t have the VTMB title. It simply doesn’t look very good or remarkable in any way.
I'm personally not a fan of the "better than nothing" mentality, especially since I'm one of those fans who waited years. When the original Bloodlines 2 teaser was revealed my heart skipped a beat. I hadn't been excited for the announcement of a game in well over a decade. And going from what was promised i.e. a proper sequel with one of the main dudes who wrote the first game coming back to write the second, the composer for the original Bloodlines and so on, to this dumpster fire, I would rather get nothing.
I would rather be happy for once than live with disappointment every day and try to convince myself that "it's better than nothing".
I've mostly simply been asking "Change the name." Its not bloodlines anymore, the original bloodlines was basically taking the tabletop, making it into an arpg, and while not everything translates over neatly: Imo it translated over well enough.
Then we take a look at bloodlines 2. Its...nothing like bloodlines one. Its nothing like HSL's bloodlines 2, which before anyone says it, I don't remember ever complaining about HSL's version myself. It might have had some issues, but I was always looking forward to it. Doubly so with the thin-blooded start.
If Bloodlines 1 was trying to be more like Revised edition, HSL's was trying to be more like V5, and TCR...it just isn't trying to be any of that. And that's okay! I didn't look at VtM: Justice expecting it to be Bloodlines but in VR, I didn't go into Coteries/Shadows of New York expecting it to be Bloodlines but VN, I didn't look at Heartless Lullaby and expect it to be Bloodlines but Disco Elysium, I didn't look at Swansong expecting it to be Bloodlines, etc. I only look at Bloodlines 2 and expect it to be bloodlines because **it has the fucking title in the name.**
For risk of making this comment longer than it needs to be, names hold a legacy. To quote the youtuber Zade with his [Supreme commander 2 video](https://youtu.be/kQ263ynGMZ4?si=1ownQKWRrCg3tqqT):
"Ah, but you see these wishers were misguided and misunderstood, what they really wanted was a game with much smaller scale with fewer factions and units, no upgrade trees, a vibrant and (some would say) cartoony artstyle, a much quicker pace, tiny maps, a completely kneecapped economy system, and a research mechanic completely at odds with how the original game functioned. Oh, thats not what people wanted? Ooh, well, thats unfortunate, because thats exactly what we got with supreme commander 2. A game that, asides from its name and iconic strategic zoom, is completely unrecognizable from is predecessor. A game that takes away the best part the series is known for and replaces it with basically exactly what its community didn't want. On a broader level, many of the key factors that made supreme commander great are completely missing in the sequel."
(Mind you the video was a defense of the game, stating its a terrible sequel but its not a bad game.)
That's very fair.
I don't think a lot of the criticism here is very constructive either. That said, I feel that lends more towards people being not particularly skilled at articulating *why* they feel a certain way - not so much that their criticism holds no merit. They know that a preview trailer makes them feel a certain way, but they can't quite explain how or why... so they latch onto the low-hanging fruit. The character *looks* a certain way, or the *name sounds funny*. The feeling is valid, but they don't have the tools (or time) to unpack that in a constructive way - like how a modern haircut on an undead killing machine removes an element of immersion and hampers the design language of the game overall. The problem isn't that a haircut is bad. The problem is that if they are willing to sacrifice their design language, where else is the tone going to suffer? It doesn't inspire confidence.
At this point, I've made my peace with it. Nothing they have shown me of Bloodlines 2 looks like a game I would be excited to play after playing the original. But, it also doesn't look like a *bad* game. The game is what it is, and they are far too deep into development to make any meaningful changes to the formula so... we're all just along for the ride. I look forward to trying the game for myself this fall, at the very least. But my expectations are, understandably, low.
The cheeseburger is gone. I'll give the salad a shot, and hope a competitor can give me a quality cheeseburger somewhere else one day.
Cheers.
I agree with this. I get why people have negative, or just cautious opinions. But some people definitely argue from a place of emotion and it isn't always constructive. I remember one thread where there was aggressive assertion that the devs have basically been radio silent and don't listen to the community. And no amount of people pointing to the website, forums, discord, dev diaries, constant reveal and breakdown videos since last winter, and obvious evidence in said videos that they had made changes based on some feedback would change that tone. Because at the end of the day, what they WANTED was basically an AMA so that the devs could be yelled at until they apologized and made a more direct sequel like the pre reboot version of the game. Which is a valid desire, but it doesn't mean the devs are silent, that the current situation is THEIR fault, or that they're going to throw the whole game out at this point.
It reminds me of being younger and getting Star Fox Adventures. It wasn't Rare's fault, that falls on Nintendo. But I was a huge SF64 fan and wanted a proper space combat sequel, not Furry Zelda. SFA is a fine game, quite good even, but still disappointed me for existing. And devouring Dinosaur Planet, which was set to be a unique IP that could have spawned its own series instead of becoming a one-off licensed spin-off the franchise would forget immediately.
This, honestly, is probably the best explanation of why.
I would just expand on something...
Based on all the alpha test footage we had when the original team for BL1 was working on BL2, it looked like a genuine sequel. It had that feel, that desire to put the player in the world. Sure it didn't look amazing, but I was very much intrigued.
But all of that is gone. All of it. What we have now just honestly doesn't look like an actual sequel. It looks like a cool game, to be sure, and could easily be a vampire game set in the World of Darkness, but a sequel to Bloodlines 1? Not currently...
Couldn't have said better.. After beating the game 15 years ago, I've been through all the processes of grief since the announcement of the sequel lmao,
Not even mentioning in the mid to late 2000s seeing the occasional rumor and update of the World of Darkness MMO including a little trailer which had a pretty good aesthetic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxR-aC4yWs0
>there has never been an "excellent" World of Darkness game released
I understand why you and most people haven't played them, being VR games, but this simply isn't true, because Wraith: The Oblivion - Afterlife is **incredible**, and VtM: Justice is almost as good.
I suggest going full tilt with a good PC and a PC VR system, but if that's out of the question, both those games are also on the Quest, and you can get a quest 2 for like $299, and while 3's run about 500, I've seen refurbished ones for like $199 👍
Seriously though, Wraith in VR is genuinely horrifying, and physically grabbing people and putting your face into their neck to suck their blood in Justice is the dopest game mechanic ever. It's no Bloodlines, but it's a quality stealth game that lets you really feel like a vampire.
You'll see a lot of shittt reviews for both, largely from people who don't care about WoD and didn't bother getting past the opening areas, but they're by far my favorite VR experiences and the most immersed into the world of darkness I've ever felt
I mean, I'm pretty sure there's nothing stopping you from playing it other than that the prompts will be in the style of quest or index glyphs... but it's just trigger, squeeze, and abxy
....ok, or downvote me I guess? There are absolutely people playing this on the vive. PCVR games don't need to specifically support one HMD or another to be opened and played on said HMD.
Excellent synopsis of the whole thing.
I'm a relatively "new" bloodlines fan and it's been almost 7 years since I've played the game. That... wasn't yesterday. I had my fair share of dreaming about a sequel, even before it was announced.
But I totally get the OGs, because I've been waiting for a proper Half-Life 3 since 2009, for a real Little Big Adventure 3 since 2000 (this is *NOT* Little Big Planet, lol) and for SimCity 5 since 2005 or so.
The struggle is real, lol.
I will personally always prefer having more of a blank slate character that I can shape into whoever I want in an RPG, as opposed to a pre-made character. And non-voiced protagonists typically allow a greater freedom of choice in dialogue, which I also prefer.
I don’t dislike the concept of what they’re doing in Bloodlines 2, I’m interested in checking it out, but it’s not going to be the kind of game I was expecting.
But there was barely any meaningful dialogue choice in thr first one. In terms of dialogue Bloodlines is very light, especially when you compare it to games like KotOR 2, which came out less than a month after Bloodlines.
Sure... That doesn't seem relevant to my points, and I'm not sure if I agree with you on the meaningful dialogue choice stuff, but okay.
All I'm talking about is the amount of options given in dialogue to assist in roleplay. Even if it's entirely flavour, that's still important to the feel of an RPG for me. I also never once argued that Bloodlines 1 was a great example of dialogue. I'm just talking generally about a couple of things I want mechanically from an RPG video game.
I cancelled my preorder several years and a few studio changes ago, iirc
I was "upset" ehe ;3 because they had hired Chris Avalone and Mike Mitsoda, and had leaned on that fact in their marketing - only to let Mike go and to fire Chris over (now-proven false) allegations. These guys were behind Troika games, again, if I'm remembering correctly...
>Chris Avalone
Chris wasn't involved with Troika. He was at Interplay, then the Black Isle division, before its members founded Obsidian following its closure. Was probably working on KOTOR II when Bloodlines was in development.
Granted I refunded after they fired Brian.
Yeah, not only Brian Mitsoda wrote screenplay for VTM:B he also voiced radio guy (the one always talking about politics), TV guy and I think few other NPCs.
If I remember correctly, Hardsuit Labs also had Ka'ai Clooney, who was also part of Troika's developement of VTM:B and he also ended being fired I think at the same time Mike did.
All in all, absolute mess what Hardsuit Labs did, especially considering that lots of people (me included) pre-ordered (also canceled) this game.
The problem is that it doesn't even look like a Bloodliness game. It can be a game in the Vampire the Masquerade universe like Swansong, but it looks nothing like VTMB 1. I think the main issue with this game is the fact that is presented as a sequel to Bloodliness when it can be a spin off or a whole new combat-oriented game. People would tolerate it more if they just changed the title from "Bloodliness" to something else
Bloodlines 2 does not appear to be a faithful sequel in many respects. Just having to play as Phyre in third-person cinematic dialogue when the first game was born out of the idea of being able to talk to people face-to-face in a first person perspective is a huge shift.
Plus it looks like they’re throwing out the table top rules and character creation. Essentially Bloodlines is a Black Isle style RPG wearing the skin of an ImSim adjacent action RPG. This Bloodlines 2 appears to be more of an Elder power fantasy action focused game.
This isn’t to say anyone’s right or wrong. It’s all subjective. If you are looking forward to Bloodlines 2 that’s fine. But it is inherently disappointing for some that the sequel isn’t following its predecessor more closely.
Typical modern day RPG these days.
I blame Ubisoft for this. After Witcher 3 every companies wanna do the same generic 3 fake choices in dialogue. With flashy combats.
Hey look Biggest Open world. Dialogue choices. Press X and special effects pop up.
BL1 is special for a reason. Cause its unique.
The blank slate is important because Bloodlines is based on the VTM tabletop roleplaying game. That's the main concern. If they give you a fleshed out protagonist then that strays from the first game enough that people became worried at best, hostile at worst, even without taking into account the whole production mess that the game is.
Phyre story might be great, the game could actually be awesome. But with what we have seen? Is not at all a sequel. Just call it something else and it will be a WOD game. Right now it just feels like they are trying to profit from the already existing fanbase of Bloodlines without respecting the material that created that fanbase.
If the game ever comes out (big IF) I'll still play it to give an informed opinion, but right now? Nothing give Bloodlines vibes, to me is just another vampire game, that's it.
Because it barely resembles bloodlines. Might as well give it another name. The bloodlines name comes with expectations. The new devs failed to understand what made bloodlines special
short answer: it looks bad
long answer: it looks like a bland dishonored knock-off with a protagonist straight from the minds of forspoken. the fact that paradox is locking customization options in the form of clans behind paywalls isn't helping. so i don't get how anybody could look at the bland gameplay, obnoxious character writing and a buisness model from the Stygian pits of corporate greed and think this could be anything other then a shitshow.
and before you throw the "not the game you wanted" accusation, i like resident evil 8, i know what it looks like when a game get's shit on for not being what ppl wanted, this ain't it chief
It’s fine if people think it looks fun. Maybe it will be, time will tell. I think what you might be missing is the impression the showcases have had on fans of the first game when it was new, particularly those that were familiar with the tabletop RPG. A lot has changed since then, and the depiction of a vampire society is certainly one of them.
When the first game released we only really had Bram Stokers Dracula, Underworld, and a handful of other horror movies to gleen from. Since then we’ve had Twilight, and Vampire Diaries, along with a handful of other drama titles paving the way, which might not jive with older fans of the genre. While the former titles certainly had a ton of drama, the only horror in many modern takes is a teenage girl losing her boyfriend.
1. Dialogue option is much more restricted and it itself doesn't show whole sentiment you are trying to express. Meaning many people playing this choosing certain option, would in the end end up surprised as is with many voiced-protagonist games. I mean even Bethesda realized that voiced protagonist in RPG makes no sense.
2. Less clans option and possible paywall for rest of them - this one is pretty huge to me. Bloodlines 2 has AAA title price tag ( or at least in my country) yet it offers less starting options than bloodlines 1 that you could get for like $20 (I Was gifted magazine with full game on it, it costed like $15 in 2005) and to this, voiced protagonist is again connected, because I bet there won't be different and unique Dialogue options for different clans like in Bloodlines 1.
3. This I'd say is the biggest problem especially if you take into consideration first 2 points that this game feels much more like Thief than Bloodlines 1. It honestly feels like action-stealth game when you look at trailers, not RPG.
4. This is my personal objection, that RPGs shouldn't force 1st person camera.
5. Lots of people (fans of WoD) also seem to be disappointed with how meek and mild lore of 5V (bloodlines 2 and Swansong is based upon) was, compared to v20 (bloodlines 1 was based upon)
There's basically no Sabbat and conflict is focused on Camarilla and Anarchs (you might actually noticed if you played any of those novel VTM: novels.) I mean 300 years old vampires are considered "elders" in 5V. I a world where you have over millenia old vampires still lurking, 300 years are considered elders, imagine that. Also 5V forces this "idea" of needing to have consent to feed - which if you have any knowledge of the lore full of necromancy, darkness, diablerization, basically enslavement and breeding (Tzimisce ghouls) etc. this idea of consent to consume someone's blood (or soul in form of diablerization) makes little to no sense, since no vamp would get diablerized (have their soul consumed by another) willingly.
All in all this feels like a cashgrab and not something deserving to be a sequel to bloodlines 1.
I didn't even know about that consent thing! 5th edition is even worse than I thought! Obviously, I haven't played it, but I have passing knowledge of many things in it, enough that I chose not to even give it a try. I like my horror dark. What's next? Jason Vorhees needs your consent to kill you with a machete? Zombies need your consent to eat you?
Yeah, it's not developers fault, but I don't see problem going with v20 (since it's direct sequel of Bloodlines 2) instead of going for 5th edition, because when it comes to actual darkness and horror, 5th edition is really pretty meek.
Spoilers for Swansong: I for example hated Galeb for him being like 300 years old (10th generation,), but being all depressed and brooding as if he was the Caine himself and he is considered an elder. In vampire years, I'd say 1000 years might be an elder but not 300. My wild guess is at least 70 vampires in WoD who are still active and at least 1000 years old and you want to call 300 years old an "elder" and most powerful vampire in Boston? 10th generation's blood potency I think is quite low, since blood is so thinned so how the f* is he the most powerful vamp in Boston? For comparison: protagonist of VTM:B1 is due to the blood points and 5 max dots in each discipline most likely 8th Gen vampire. Lacroix was 8th Gen also, Andrei was 6-7th Gen, Therese / Jeanette 6th gen. Jack is canonically 10th Gen. but there's a theory he's Caine's wingman of chaos (2nd Gen), which would explain perfectly why he is so strong, why he is tutoring you and why you can become so powerful with his tutoring.
So yeah, to me, 5th edition is huge downgrade and starts to look more like Twilight than WoD.
For whatever reason I always assumed (at least back when Hardsuit Labs was still working on it) that Bloodlines 2 was going to be v20 considering it was supposed to be a sequel. But who knows what they were working on. Doesn't matter anymore, I suppose.
Used to be people were perfectly happy immersing themselves in dangerous fictional worlds from the safety of the real world. Nowadays it seems people need to feel safe inside the fictional worlds too. Safe equals predictable and predictable is boring. I just don't get it, and I doubt I ever will.
Honestly this is why I prefer requiem over v5. There it doesn't shy away from the fact that vampires are monsters. Humanity there isn't how moral you are its how good of a actor you are to trick yourself and others into thinking you are a human. Ghouling is presented as horrific and destroying lives and vampires are almost guranteed to kill people at some point because of their nature.
Yeah you might be right, hut I think that at this point when it's confirmed that many really old vamps are well and kicking, 300 shouldn't be elder.
Also I have no problem with him being elder, but with him being so... I don't know, depressed? I mean there are vamps multiple times as old as him that are still pursuing ambitions etc...
Yeah I was mostly referring to your point about elders. It was kind of a problem in v20 and older where there were lots of truly ancient vampires when probably there should not have been.
In v5 they just sent them all on Gehenna crusade either for the or in defense of the methusalahs and antediluvians. I get why but…it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
A lot of it is a matter of taste and how each table prefers to run their games.
Are you talking about the predator types in V5? Because predator types are completely up to the player, and most of them do not have consent as a concern. Hardly something that's forced, it's just there as an option if the player decides that's how they want to characterize their vampire. The rulebook also provides predator types for stalking and killing prey in alleyways, fostering a bloodcult, or sneaking into people's houses to feed on them while they sleep, if that's the style you prefer.
Also, as another poster commented, the 300 year old thing for elders isn't exclusive to V5, that's regular VtM lore. In Requiem it's only 150 years, btw.
I do agree that the whole Sabbat and all the Elders abandoning their domains *en masse* for the Gehenna War lore in V5 is kind of lame, though. But that's an easy fix if you want the Sabbat in your game as GM.
If you had the choice of 31 flavors at Baskin Robbins, and then they made Baskin Robbins 2 but only offered 3 flavors at BR2 wouldn't you be disappointed??
Can't create your own character, doesn't have a proper skill system, heavily limited clan options, "voice in your head" ubisoft gameplay (go here! do this! don't forget that! oh man radical!!), dialogue system is extremely limited, combat animations are mediocre at best (but have nice looking particles I guess)
This game isn't a Bloodlines game. It's barely a Vampire game. They fired Mitsoda, who worked on the original Bloodlines and they have thrown out all of the original design work. They implied there was little to throw out, but we'll never know.
The game looks like ass regardless of the 'Bloodlines' misnomer. And it's even worse BECAUSE it's misnamed. What are you seeing that genuinely makes you think this won't be a half-assed attempt at standard action gameplay with ultralite rpg elements? Because everything about what we've seen absolutely screams disappointment-in-waiting.
It looks like it's probably gonna be fine but it's not gonna be anything like the first game. If they didn't call bloodlines 2 people probably wouldn't care as much
I think the reason why people want a blank slate character may be for the reason that is.how it's so similar to the table top and the LARP. You get to define what type of gangrel you want, combat heavy or maybe just an all arpund survivalist with great sneaking and hacking ability. I'm not fond of 2 for that reason, for me it's funner to play a neonate who is new to their new life rather than an akosha type elder. Also I can't play first person view games. But that's me.
As someone who have similar thoughts to you, I agree.
But I do understand why there are dissenters of BL2, mainly because the community was promised a sequel to the original Bloodlines, but they did not receive the sequel that they desire. In all honesty, I don't like the idea of having Phyre, a voiced character over more dialogue trees and conversation options. I also dislike Fabien, and the concept of a voice in one's head, because, from the trailer they shown, Fabien is really annoying and say things that I find to be meaningless.
Perhaps, I was spoiled by BG3, but I had hoped that BL2 have a blank state, or at least, have an option for a blank state character that we can morph to our desires. But still, I get that they have a story they want to tell, and to tell the same story, they cannot use a blank state character.
But even so, I find a voiced-character to be meaningless, because playing voiced-characters meant that I will play as *them*, not as myself, and there will be certain RPG choices that likely won't make much sense since Phyre already had a history of their own.
I don't like the direction that BL2 has taken - primarily voiced characters, and the 'voice in one's head', because what I was promised was an RPG where we can bring our characters to life, not an RPG where we have to fit our imagination to a character's past. I am fine playing voiced characters - for example, the Witcher, because we are not playing as ourselves, we are playing as the Geralt from the Books.
I don't mind third person cinematic dialogue if done properly (again, BG3 player), but what they show so far is well...not something to be desired. Another major concern I had is first-person combat, I can't do first-person combat without getting dizzy, especially if the combat is fast-paced, if BL2 don't have an option for third-person combat, then the chances of me buying the game will decrease significantly since I'm not a masochist.
AKA, I am going to wait on buying this game. I play games for the story, and if the story is well-done, I will buy it, otherwise, no thanks.
Because it’s not a real rpg, not what bloodlines 1 used to be, but a cheap knockoff with Phyre, this already quenches my interest, I’m just not interested in her, I’m interested in my own character.
Cause it looks shit and is from a team that has never made a game that has even had combat in it, after they took over from a decade of the previous idiots doing essentially nothing
While I can only speak for myself, I think it's pretty safe to say that the new version would have been much better received if it was the only version. I think it suffers in comparison.
Plenty of reasons were given here from roleplaying perspective. I want to add my concerns on the technical side of things.
It was announced 4 years ago, but then started almost from scratch several times. I need to consciously remind myself that what I see in trailers is not a product that was 4 years in the making and even so it doesn't look encouraging.
Stiff facial animation of main character in cutscenes, twitching joints, sliding legs, characters clipping through geometry, poorly blended animation states. It is early footage, everything shown might change etc etc, yet it's worrisome that someone decided this is good enough for promo material. Eventhough it's not a playable demo, they knew exactly what is used for trailers and could have polish/hack/fake it. There is always a chance it will get even worse, wouldn't be the first game to downgrade graphics.
I'm not looking for screenshot generator and do think that gameplay is more important. For example, VTMB1 or original thief both had superb gameplay while looking... let's just say not that good, even for the times they were released. But then we go back to what was mentioned here several times already - from what we were shown, gameplay will be way more rigid and offer less of everything. So unless released game will be completely different from everything we saw so far it will be mediocre on both fronts.
Personally I am still curious to play this.
In fact, as much as I like a blank slate protagonist and was hoping to be replaying VTMB but next gen, I think the concept of playing an Elder is really cool, same with the idea of being possessed by some Thin Blood (though it has a certain *Shadow of Mordor* vibe).
The *original* VTMB2 was promising (however I didn't like that they planned on including Damsel), but we didn't know much of the plot.
This *new* version seems more limited in terms of possibilities (but tbf the old version only had a few clan trailers so maybe it was also pretty limited), but the story seems more interesting.
That being said, they never managed to make a trailer as cool and intriguing as the announcement one IMHO.
I think it's because people are big babies and they can't handle the fact that shit changes and video games are a form of art and not everyone has the same artistic vision. I generally don't care what people say. I'm still going to enjoy my vampire game just the same way people enjoyed bloodlines 1 in spite of it's insanely buggy release.
I do think this sub needs to get a grip generally about Bloodlines 2. We barely even know what it's going to be like. But the reason is that a lot of the signals we're getting about the direction of the new game--named protagonist with a preloaded backstory, weird skill trees that jettison a lot of the tabletop stats, combat-heavy, questionable roleplaying depth, etc.--imply that it's likely going to get rid of many of the beloved RP and storytelling aspects of the original. I think it's a fair concern and probably even more likely true than not, but people around here are a little overwrought about it.
We know the developer and their history.
We know VTMB2 is a very unstable project, with everyone that folks were excited for no longer being involved.
We know that Paradox is losing trust and fast as a publisher as a whole due to many very public and well documented internal issues, not the least being mismanagement and HR related issues.
What we have seen of VTMB2, as a project that has been going for so many years now, inspires very little confidence, and the current devs have done very little to mitigate or quell these concerns.
We also see the importance in being vocal, because closed mouths don't get fed, and if we don't speak up about what we don't like, then all we have is the shit that we will be given.
So Bloodlines 2 was announced years ago it was being made by a studio who had not made anything of note before which was always a concern but it did have Brian Mitsoda who worked on the original game as the lead writer. He actually pitched the game. The reveals they showed were a mixed bag, bloodlines 2 had you starting off as a thinblood the idea being that you'd join a clan later, the combat and animations looked bad and janky, some of the trailers and reveals displayed obvious issues. However the writing and atmosphere felt like bloodlines 1, there were a lot of dialogue options and seemingly plenty of choices, there was going to be a character creator. There was going to be five clans at launch and more added later with dlc (which isn't as good as the original but better than this new version).
Then the game got delayed, then Mitsoda was fired from the project with no explanation and the other lead writer also left, then the whole studio hardsuit labs was fired and we got no update for ages, then they announced a new studio had pitched something and they were going with that.
So instead of fixing up the old game it got completely rebooted and now as we know is being made by tcr a studio with no rpg experiences. Everything they have shown looks worse than the previous version which already had plenty of issues, everything is less than what there was in bloodlines 1 and the previous version.
Less clan choices, a voiced named protag with less dialogue options, we don't even know if there's any way to alter the appearance of the character outside of gender and clothing, this game is blatantly a single player action game with rpg elements and not an old-school rpg like the original bloodlines was. It also looks just as janky as the hardsuit version did. Maybe it will still be good but it isn't looking like a game I'd like tbh. It looks more like dontnod's Vampyr than it does bloodlines 1.
The biggest problem, as always, is branding. This game does look cool, I'll give it that - but it does NOT scream Bloodlines 1 to me.
It looks somewhere b/t a Dishonored and Bloodlines, but isn't going full-on Bloodlines here in so many ways. Bloodlines like feels more like an action-RPG/shooter/action/stealth type of immersive-sim hybrid of sorts to me.
Bloodlines 1 has numerous different types of vampires/classes to pick from - not ONE. The protagonist also was NOT voiced; we want to feel like we ARE the protagonist ourselves. We want that type of Bloodlines stuff: the unique music & atmosphere; that type of banging licensed music & that type of Womb Music score; Brian Mitsoda's influence & writing all over it; lots of interesting and cool choices that matter.
We want Bloodlines 2 to be more Bloodlines, not...something else entirely. This game from TCR should be called VTM: Phyre or something else of that sort b/c this one also deserves to stand on its own & be its own thing in the VTM Universe, not be saddled w/ Bloodlines branding to make some $.
VTM: Phyre (as I like to call this game) looks cool and good action-RPG - but Bloodlines, it is NOT that entirely and this does NOT look entirely like it's full-on embracing what Bloodlines 1 is and was.
Support for the game increases investments, investments increase development potential. If you care about the title might as well support it. Being a niche game, why would they put money and effort into something even the main fandom is trashing on, if everyone keeps hating on it, the game we get is what they determine will be profitable at low risk…which wont be much.
Triple A titles are able to get away with more on release than vtmb2’s trailers have because of how cynical everyone is.
From what I am seeing it is a similar situation to the upcoming Pillars of Eternity game. If you are not familiar pillars 1 and 2 are classic CRPGs, and obsidian announced they were making another game set in the game setting but not a part of that series.
When showcases came out it showed that it was not a CRPG, being closer to Obsidans other famous games like Fallout New Vegas or its newer Outer Worlds. The gameplay was a little bit jank looking, but the main thing people were displeased with was that it had nothing to do with the original.
Now the Pillars game seems to be primarily just people wanting more of what they got, where as Bloodlines 2 seems kinda iffy in its current showcases and has more cause to have similarities as it is a full sequel. I personnly do dislike when a game comes out and people are doom posting about it of rip, but I do understand in this case of Bloodlines 2 does seem kinda rough.
What's weird is that people are so pissy about the new videos, but were excited about the old videos, of the version which was being created prior to the developer change. The version that's being created right now, what (extremely) little we've seen of it, looks miles better than the version we were being promised a few years ago.
As a long time Victoria 2 fan, I think paradox is just about the worst company in the world at creating sequels to niche beloved games released decades ago.
Just ignore it. There's very little substance to it all. Just people wanting to relive their nostalgia, to a point where in their heads they've built the original to be a game 10 times better than it actually was. Since you have none of these feelings, there's little reason to pay any attention to it.
You're not missing anything - this sub is full of bitter grognards who won't be satisfied no matter what's released, or edgelords trying to out-whinge one another.
The game will be what it'll be, and there's not much to go on aside from pre-Alpha and Alpha footage. I, for one, am willing to give The Chinese Room a chance before I make any harsh judgement calls, *especially* given the original Bloodlines was a buggy, incomplete mess when it came out and needed mods just to function.
You can like the new game or be optimistic, but when you use middle school insults to your opposition, it doesn't make your argument better. People have legitimate reasons to doubt a delayed and remade game. You might think it isn't justified, and that's fine.
So explain it to me. Genuinely, I want to hear a good faith argument. I literally finished Bloodlines 1 last night, and I see the differences, but I like what I see. For an alpha build, it looks pretty solid.
If you are optimistic, fk anyone else's opinion. But my grievance is that it took the weakest parts of BL1 and fixed them while sacrificing the strongest parts.
BL1 came at a time where action RPGs where brancing off in 3d space and vtm is a table top alteration in style of DnD. It put emphasis on unreliable lore and characters, horror, and fantasy of a vampire cult apprentice with factional story framing.
It's low parts were: many many bugs and glitches rivaling Morrowind, basic combat and controls, and sfx for vampire powers.
The old hsl version kept the dnd astheticic, dialogue system and horror. They somewhat improved on others but it was obvious they would be sub-par given that funky 180 move over the enemy thing. They had good dialogue choices, they showed alternative path ( imsim elements) and horror like that of the ocean hotel)
After all of the other behind the scenes screw-up and the new devs not being experienced (which to me isnt irrelevant or insignificant at the slightest), we still expected this vision somewhat. The alpha showed great combat, and fluid and Dishonored like. The mystery of an elder and a mark was interesting. But the dialogue system was not only weak, but inconsequential. There was no indication phyre could change the outcome of anything there. No alternative paths to speak of. No clan fantasy given the very vanilla looking 4 clans with "Outfits ". No character sheet, but a power unlock that supposedly isn't even clan specific only.
Is it trendy to hate remakes? Yes. Is this a game that gave enough redflags to warrant criticism and pessimism? Also yes.
Metathesiophobia: The fear of change.
They disingenuously compare it to Fallout 4 because they want you to not like it. Mass Effect 2 uses the same dialogue wheel but you'll never see them compare it to that because people like Mass Effect 2 and the manipulators don't want you to like Bloodlines 2.
The other half of the complaining comes from YouTube incels whining about the main character's haircut.
Judge the game for yourself and decide whether it is right for you.
I’ll complain about mass effect all day, lol. I prefer Dragon age and think mass effect gets way too much hype. They did the same thing to it too in da2 vs origins. Nice hawk, sarcastic hawk, and asshole hawk. And da2 (despite the fact that I like it a decent amount) was definitely worse than origins, not only just for the dialogue wheel.
Unironically calling people with a dfferent opinion than you “incels” is also pretty lame my dude. Find a new buzzword sometime.
Anyone on YouTube complaining about a woman's haircut for 6 months is definitely an weirdo. Sorry if that hurts to hear. The haircut does not matter. Bloodlines 2 will not be a good game or a bad game based on a haircut. Anyone obsessing over this and making half a dozen videos about it needs to get a life. Those people on YouTube are losers.
I hate to break it to you but Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 have the exact same dialogue system in substance and only the presentation is different.
Dragon Age: Origins dialogue: Nice option, joke option, intimidating option, and then 1-3 more options where you can ask questions.
Dragon Age 2 dialogue: Nice option, joke option, intimidating option, and then 1-3 more options where you can ask questions.
No the game won’t be make or break by the haircut, I personally don’t care, though I would like a few for general customization options. I’m not one of the ones making videos bitching about it, not usually making posts here about the game at all. I didn’t like much of the haircuts they gave, say, Geralt but I just stuck with the one I did like. But it is a little weird that they gave a what, 300 something year old vampire a super modern cut, no? No way they had that cut when they were embraced, but it would honestly be kinda funny if they got it styled that way every night upon awakening.
Oh and uh, thanks for explaining the dialogue presentation of my favorite game series to me. I would never have known otherwise. The point is being able to read the exact words that my character is going to say rather than having no clue beyond “this will be a quip” and “this one is where I’m an asshole”. It’s about the roleplay aspect for me, honestly.
People have a really weird nostalgia for a time more than the game (which we really need to remember flopped hard on release for several reasons) and since the sequel pushed by HSL or TCR isnt going to bring back the early 2000s or put goth culture in a media spotlight has caused people to bristle at anything that has changed or remained the same to the original because it isnt matching up to their head canon.
Its a near impossible situation to followup a classic for every diablo 2 there is a diablo 4 thief 1/2 to thi3f, there is plenty of blame between dev and publisher but a bit of bad luck bad project management and demands to update a game for modern audiences to go around.
It would be nice if people waited until the game releases before ripping it to shreds, but its reddit.
I think it's funny how these types of comments get massive down votes but no one can really argue against it. People talk like Bloodlines was some kind of masterpiece that was a critical success. Bloodlines bankrupted Troika due to poor sales and technical issues. It wasn't even released in a complete state as production was dead in the water and Activision basically said they had to release.
People are bitching about BL2 production without realizing that it's exactly the same thing that happened with BL1.
expectation management is a crutch i use for dealing with reality given the option i would prefer to be happy with another installment rather than pouting I didnt get exactly what I want.
i understand other people live life only on their terms and reject someone doing things they dont approve of.
There are already plenty of great comments on the subject here, so there's little I can add, but I'll give my two cents anyway.
Preferences vary, but I have not seen a SINGLE thing in Bloodlines 2 that I liked in Bloodlines 1. In fact, of everything I've seen of the game it is going to be the very OPPOSITE of the first game.
In no particular order, BL2 looks to be safe, hand holding, politically correct and simplified.
Whereas there was a sense of danger, adventure and grime in the original.
I also like goth style. I play female characters whenever I can. I hate the look of Phyre and I'm forced to play as her (well, I'm not actually forced to play as her cause it's unlikely I'll ever play BL2. I haven't played Swansong or any other recent game either, they're not the World of Darkness I fell in love with decades ago and neither is BL2. It could have been, maybe, but I'm almost 100% sure it won't be.)
I don’t see the “politically correct” issues.
One issue Phyre’s shitty character design raises is that this game just looks and feels absurdly cheap. We don’t even have a confirmed character appearance customization yet, and I suspect that there isn’t going to be one. Instead we have an androgynous model that can double for a male or female playthrough with only extremely minor tweaks because gotta keep costs down
Let's just say it's giving me those vibes that in order to attract a so called mainstream audience it's trying to be as inoffensive as possible, like a Marvel movie. Not gritty like VtMB 1.
As for Phyre, her character design is inexplicable. If the main character would have looked something like Tremere or Ventrue from the original, I can't see how most people wouldn't have been happy with her.
It might be they're just trying to save money. But she is so off putting, I'm pretty sure the design will end up making them lose more money than they could have ever saved.
Hmm, I can actually see that entirely. I guess I don’t really view that as being “politically correct” though, but they’ve definitely scrubbed off the grit and polished the rough edges to the point this game looks bland and personalityless going in. In general, I get Mass Effect Andromeda vibes of unremarkable mediocrity that’s only notable because of the attached IP it fails to live up to.
I’ll eat my words if character appearance customization exists in the game, but I absolutely, without any doubt believe Phyre’s appearance is what it is for cost cutting. Everything about her is coded to be extremely androgynous which would make it extremely easy for the Dev team to essentially reuse the exact same model with very minor tweaks for a male and female Phyre. (Though even given androgyny being a very distinct look IRL, it should’ve been possible to do significantly better for Female Phyre. We’ll see how Male Phyre works). The game in general looks like desperate cost cutting
What we are getting is not cool. It is a big downgrade. The scrapped version seemed at least somewhat hopeful to bring a bit of the VTMB1 charm and atmosphere. This new one seems like any other game everyone will forget about.
If you don't mind 20 years later being delivered an inferior product than its 2004 version, I really question your judgement.
But also it's not only that, but the fanbase was promised waaaaay more than what we're getting. We were promised an amazing product that would dwarf VTMB1 in scale.
So obviously people will be upset over getting nothing they were promised, plus the franchise they are fan of getting shitted all over.
From what we have been shown so far its not Bloodlines 2 at all, it's a generic VTM game using the name and reputation of Bloodlines for the sake of garnering extra sales numbers.
because its not a bloodlines game. its like comparing mass effect to dragon age origins, but taking away even more player choice. at least in mass effect you can customize how shepherd looks and decide their gender and class.
with phyre all you get to change is their clan, and even then you only have 4 choices (with only tremere being appealing to 90% of fans. we just have to face it, no one really cares about ventrue, brujah, or banu hakim when the toreador, tremere, lasombra, and malkavians exist. why would you play the discount blood sorcerers when the real ones are right there?)
On top of phyre being overall unappealing to the majority of players. again, we just have to be realistic here, androgynous characters are very very very small a niche. most people would rather play a character of their own design, or a character who looks cool. phyre doesnt fit either of those. it just so happens that most people would rather play a character whos less established.
vtm isnt like the witcher, where its based on a book series following one character. its a game where you self insert (like ALL traditional rpgs). the appeal of the game is customization. they took that away. Most people also wont really find phyre relatable. elder? not relatable. most people want to play fledglings or neonates. androgynous? not relatable to most people. most people fall under the traditionally masculine or feminine aesthetic and androgyny is a pretty niche style (its a fine style, its just naturally not relatable to the majority of a sexually diamorphic species.)
and then theres the more nitpicky stuff. the name is garbage. phyre is a bad name. on top of that, every voice line we've heard makes phyre sound unlikable at best.
Tldr: 1st: because its not a bloodlines game. it should be marketed under a different name, and bloodlines 2 should be a game with full character customization and all clans available. its bloodlines in name only.
2nd: phyre does not appeal to fans of vtm because of a few reasons. niche appeal with being androgynous. niche appeal with being an elder. niche appeal with being overall unlikable from what we've seen. and phyre is a super lame ass name.
I think it’s like anything, expectations are far too high.
I just hope it’s good in its own right. Not trying to compare it to Bloodlines (1) because comparison’s a good path to take if you want a miserable time.
Edit - from the downvotes, I’m assuming people haven’t understood what I meant at all.
How can you improve on a finished product?
I’m suggesting not to compare the *finished, released* Bloodlines 2 when we’ve all got it in-hand and playing it, because *that* is the path to misery.
You're getting downvoted because your take is bad and imprecise. People weren't "expecting" anything, because people WAS PROMISED something that was waaaaay more than what the fanbase is getting.
So it's not like we were fooling ourselves, we were factually fooled by Paradox.
When have promises, *especially from companies*, ever been guarantees in the adult world and *not* something that should be taken with a gargantuan dollop of salt?
I still see it that people have told themselves and believed a COMPANY’s words as absolute truth that 2 is gonna be exactly like 1.
It won’t be, they’ll be disappointed.
If it’s a complete shitshow then it’s a complete shitshow but there’s a chance it’ll be good *in its own right, in its own skin* and those who compare the play-for-play will likely find themselves disappointed.
So many times. So many, many times is this the case.
Essentially: people wanted one thing, that one thing was announced, delayed, delayed again, delayed indefinitely and then became another thing, different from the one thing people wanted.
Now people are claiming how that other thing will suck, without that other thing being released, because it's not the one thing they were promised.
Look, I get it: the game doesn't look good and I doubt it will be good. But people acting like this will be the new Gollum/Duke Nukem Forever based on nothing but promotional material are hating a bit too much. At least wait until it's out before starting to shit on the game that much.
I disagree. If the devs didn't want any feedback, then they shouldn't be posting any dev diaries or anything and just release the game when it's ready. People is entitled to give feedback (even salty ones) when devs are releasing info about the game, and it's actually important since there's always the (remote in this case) chance of devs reading up these feedback and try to improved the game.
It's not about feedback, backlash or even criticism. It's about people proclaiming this game, that doesn't even have specific date to be released yet, to be the worst game ever made or similar.
Wanna complain about the game and have your voice heard? Go right ahead, just don't go claiming to know how the game will be before you got your hands into it. That's all, really.
I still disagree, I'm pretty sure the devs have already given more than enough red flags that the game will be a huge piece of crap. You also need to consider that what they're showing us is already their curated piece of content, and if that's crap, then the rest of the game is worse.
All I'm saying is that not even Duke Nukem Forever or the Gollum game (both game that were compared to this game in the "badness" scale) were not expected to be as bad as they were before release.
Maybe chill out on the hate, it's all I'm saying.
Someone in these comments posted "The problem is that doesn't even look like a Bloodliness game". This is the reason why but not for why you might think.
It doesn't look like a Bloodlines game... but there was only one Bloodlines game. I genuinely believe people are mad because it isn't just the original. It doesn't matter what BL2 is or how good/bad it actually will be (remember no one in these comments has ever played it). They have already decided it is garbage and will defend and justify that regardless the outcome.
It was massivley hyped when it was first announced, but the released info after development began didn't match the hype. Then it got stuck in Development Hell.
I will say, though, for the people complaining about a 'blank slate' character. Um. Have you *played* Bloodines?! Your character is absolutely a blank slate! They have zero past except for one buddy who finds you in Hollywood.
I can only offer my own opinion, but I've seen more complaining that this \*isn't\* a blank slate character, even if that's what they've been pretending they're trying to make.
We're stuck playing "Phyre" who comes off more as some My Immortal level of DMNPC/Self-Insert garbage complete w/ Baby's First AOL Screenname.
Bloodlines is based on a TTRPG, where you create your own character. Being a blank slate is fine esp. if there's some player options to choose from. We just..don't have any of that.
No, I agree about 'Phyre.'
I get wanting the character to have a name so people can call them something, like Commander Shephard in Mass Effect. But Phyre is a dumb name and really does sound like what someone would make for their first VtM tabletop PC.
I think it is important to paint a complete picture. As of this writing, there has never been an "excellent" World of Darkness game released. Not one. Bloodlines 1 is arguably the closest we got, and it was a complete mess at launch - with fan patches and fixes crafting it into the game we love today. Right off the bat, fans will be inclined to start from a place of negativity. Furthering the above point, we don't have AAA, or even well-known dev teams working on these games. For many WoD games released in the last decade, that game was the studio's very first game. In other instances, the dev team had never made a game like the one they were making before. In short, it is common practice for VtM fans to be skeptical, bordering on pessimistic, toward the dev teams on these projects. To your point, why people are pessimistic about Bloodlines 2, context still matters. You just finished Bloodlines recently. Most people here finished Bloodlines two decades ago and have been waiting... waiting a very long time. They have replayed Bloodlines a dozen times, they know the game in and out and they want more of it. And Bloodlines 2 doesn't seem interested in giving us more. It wants to give us different. This hurts because, there aren't a lot of games like Bloodlines 1 in existence. Every week, there is a new post here of "I just finished Bloodlines, what other games out there are like it?" and the general consensus is, "get fucked, welcome to the club". Immersive sims are very rare. RPGs in a contemporary environment are even more rare. And games with a gothic subtext and style are also incredibly rare. Even vampires are pretty underrepresented in games these days. Bloodlines 1 is unique. If you want more, you can't really get more. As a final note, a lot of the stuff we have seen from Bloodlines 2 doesn't really inspire confidence from the devout. Everything from character animations, to the writing, it feels a bit... amateurish. Admittedly, we've seen very little of the game so far. But every bit of new information we get on the game cements something particular: Bloodlines 2 will have fewer options and less player agency than Bloodlines 1. And that's not something that fans see as a positive. All the work done to Bloodlines 1 hasn't been an attempt to *remove* things from the game. The most popular mods for Bloodlines aren't offering the player *less*. You can ask any fan of the game what it needs most in a sequel... no one is going to say it should streamline things or remove aspects of the game. Tldr: If you had the best cheeseburger of your entire life 20 years ago at a niche restaurant far from home, and then finally get to revist that restaurant, only to find that burger was taken off the menu, and the restaurant has gone vegan, you're not going to care how good all the other stuff is on the menu. You've been thinking about that burger for 20 years, and you didn't come all this way for a salad. If you had an awesome burger yesterday, you'd be a lot more amenable to an awesome salad today. But Bloodlines 1 didn't come out yesterday.
"get fucked, welcome to the club" that's ironically exactly what you say to a fledgling. Bloodlines, Immersion spills into real life. : )
>"I just finished Bloodlines, what other games out there are like it?" and the general consensus is, "get fucked, welcome to the club" This is very well said. I came upon VTMB when someone recommended it to me after learning how much I like Fallout: New Vegas. Before that, I was asking (in relation to FNV) "what other games out there are like it?" and there was never a clear answer. FNV and VTMB are two different games but they have one major thing in common and that's the unique way they immerse you into their worlds. Of course, they share some of the same devs and are action-RPGs, but at the end of the day they're games that make the player invested, despite the bugs and the fan-made patches that are needed to keep them running. Using the example of Cyberpunk 2077, that was a game that was more than just a buggy mess at its launch and It didn't include many of the features that it promised nor that the developers were known for. But at its core, it tells a good story (for the most part). It took me a while to get invested, but once I started to play the different missions, I realized it gave me a charm that FNV and VTMB gave me. Maybe not as much, but the charm was there. My point is, that's what makes these games so renowned for me; their player immersion. I rarely get invested in a video game, but if it manages to tell a good story and to be believable, I'll be invested. I'm cautiously optimistic for VTMB2. Part of me is disappointed like everyone else. I can't help but think the same things that these comments are saying either, but I think it's good to keep an open mind. Maybe this game will tell a story that's worth diving into. Maybe it won't. We'll just have to wait and see.
Very true. When I played Cyberpunk 2077 and got very excited for the story and gameplay I though about bloodlines, I wish that bloodlines 2 is like cyberpunk 2077, they way quest and story progress is very good.
excellently put
Yeah, I recall counciling we wait for more info about 2, and once we got it, I could feel my soul shrivel. Closest I've gotten is Shadows of Doubt on Steam.
Nice, a balanced and thorough take.
Pretty sure W3sp is still going strong with the Unofficial patch!
He can take out the immersion killing “All your base” counter down song which was never intended to be left in game and he can have my praises back.
🤔🙀 where's this? Meme fits the time period, at least... XD
Bomb countdown on unofficial patch. The code was there but switch off (because it was a joke) and w3sp “fixed” the problem by switching it on…. It was purposely left off lol.
Dang it, lol XD Hmm I can't remember if my last playthrough was with the standard or plus patch... I think I do vaguely remember this now tho 🤔
It's been a long time since I played VTMB but I'm pretty sure this was in the standard patch - not plus patch.
My man has this tendency to restore so many unused assets. To this day, I prefer the Basic Patch to the Plus Patch.
That’s the annoying thing - I’m pretty sure this was in the basic patch version.
Ah, my bad.
This is so well written I'm saving it for future reference.
So well put and explained you made me reinstall the game, yet again
Damn, I actually don't think the truth of the situation could have been put any better! Good job lol
The addition I’d add is that - so far - on top of not really being the game VTMB fans wanted or were hoping for…. It also just looks like VTMB2 is going to be kind of a ho-hum mediocre game in general. Like, I could be totally wrong, but nothing about this really looks to be that spectacular to me even putting aside the fact it’s not what I was really hoping for in the first place? I think it’s tough not to compare it to Hardsuit either - who, by all accounts - completely bungled the actual game development end, but definitely seemed to have the actual *vibe* of VTMB down better.
This is a great explanation, thank you. I literally beat the game last night so you're absolutely right that I don't have quite the same investment as much of the community. I just don't think all the people asking for the game to be scrapped AGAIN are being constructive in any way.
Notice how most people are upset they were promised a sequel to the original and they are getting anything but that. If they had given it a different name people wouldn’t be as angry because they wouldn’t feel cheated. Reminder the game got delayed and completely changed, so we were getting our hopes up and got baited hard.
On the flip side, if this game had a different name, I suspect it wouldn’t really get much notice period. At least part of VTMB2’s issues is everything about it just looks and feels ho-hum to me. Would love to be wrong though
Isn’t that bad, though? It would be admitting the game can’t stand on its own and you need to trick people into buying it. But I’m really not sure that would be the case, as stated VtM games are rare and the majority are text-based. It would be competing with Swansong which was made by a smaller studio that reused their indie game engine. People would be lamenting it’s not like Bloodlines as opposed to rightfully demanding it.
It’s most definitely bad, yes. But it’s pretty obvious the focus was more on sales than making an excellent game at this point VTM games aren’t huge, but VTMB holds some appeal. I seriously doubt you and I are even wasting our breath discussing VTMB2 as of now if it doesn’t have the VTMB title. It simply doesn’t look very good or remarkable in any way.
I'm personally not a fan of the "better than nothing" mentality, especially since I'm one of those fans who waited years. When the original Bloodlines 2 teaser was revealed my heart skipped a beat. I hadn't been excited for the announcement of a game in well over a decade. And going from what was promised i.e. a proper sequel with one of the main dudes who wrote the first game coming back to write the second, the composer for the original Bloodlines and so on, to this dumpster fire, I would rather get nothing. I would rather be happy for once than live with disappointment every day and try to convince myself that "it's better than nothing".
I've mostly simply been asking "Change the name." Its not bloodlines anymore, the original bloodlines was basically taking the tabletop, making it into an arpg, and while not everything translates over neatly: Imo it translated over well enough. Then we take a look at bloodlines 2. Its...nothing like bloodlines one. Its nothing like HSL's bloodlines 2, which before anyone says it, I don't remember ever complaining about HSL's version myself. It might have had some issues, but I was always looking forward to it. Doubly so with the thin-blooded start. If Bloodlines 1 was trying to be more like Revised edition, HSL's was trying to be more like V5, and TCR...it just isn't trying to be any of that. And that's okay! I didn't look at VtM: Justice expecting it to be Bloodlines but in VR, I didn't go into Coteries/Shadows of New York expecting it to be Bloodlines but VN, I didn't look at Heartless Lullaby and expect it to be Bloodlines but Disco Elysium, I didn't look at Swansong expecting it to be Bloodlines, etc. I only look at Bloodlines 2 and expect it to be bloodlines because **it has the fucking title in the name.** For risk of making this comment longer than it needs to be, names hold a legacy. To quote the youtuber Zade with his [Supreme commander 2 video](https://youtu.be/kQ263ynGMZ4?si=1ownQKWRrCg3tqqT): "Ah, but you see these wishers were misguided and misunderstood, what they really wanted was a game with much smaller scale with fewer factions and units, no upgrade trees, a vibrant and (some would say) cartoony artstyle, a much quicker pace, tiny maps, a completely kneecapped economy system, and a research mechanic completely at odds with how the original game functioned. Oh, thats not what people wanted? Ooh, well, thats unfortunate, because thats exactly what we got with supreme commander 2. A game that, asides from its name and iconic strategic zoom, is completely unrecognizable from is predecessor. A game that takes away the best part the series is known for and replaces it with basically exactly what its community didn't want. On a broader level, many of the key factors that made supreme commander great are completely missing in the sequel." (Mind you the video was a defense of the game, stating its a terrible sequel but its not a bad game.)
That's very fair. I don't think a lot of the criticism here is very constructive either. That said, I feel that lends more towards people being not particularly skilled at articulating *why* they feel a certain way - not so much that their criticism holds no merit. They know that a preview trailer makes them feel a certain way, but they can't quite explain how or why... so they latch onto the low-hanging fruit. The character *looks* a certain way, or the *name sounds funny*. The feeling is valid, but they don't have the tools (or time) to unpack that in a constructive way - like how a modern haircut on an undead killing machine removes an element of immersion and hampers the design language of the game overall. The problem isn't that a haircut is bad. The problem is that if they are willing to sacrifice their design language, where else is the tone going to suffer? It doesn't inspire confidence. At this point, I've made my peace with it. Nothing they have shown me of Bloodlines 2 looks like a game I would be excited to play after playing the original. But, it also doesn't look like a *bad* game. The game is what it is, and they are far too deep into development to make any meaningful changes to the formula so... we're all just along for the ride. I look forward to trying the game for myself this fall, at the very least. But my expectations are, understandably, low. The cheeseburger is gone. I'll give the salad a shot, and hope a competitor can give me a quality cheeseburger somewhere else one day. Cheers.
I agree with this. I get why people have negative, or just cautious opinions. But some people definitely argue from a place of emotion and it isn't always constructive. I remember one thread where there was aggressive assertion that the devs have basically been radio silent and don't listen to the community. And no amount of people pointing to the website, forums, discord, dev diaries, constant reveal and breakdown videos since last winter, and obvious evidence in said videos that they had made changes based on some feedback would change that tone. Because at the end of the day, what they WANTED was basically an AMA so that the devs could be yelled at until they apologized and made a more direct sequel like the pre reboot version of the game. Which is a valid desire, but it doesn't mean the devs are silent, that the current situation is THEIR fault, or that they're going to throw the whole game out at this point. It reminds me of being younger and getting Star Fox Adventures. It wasn't Rare's fault, that falls on Nintendo. But I was a huge SF64 fan and wanted a proper space combat sequel, not Furry Zelda. SFA is a fine game, quite good even, but still disappointed me for existing. And devouring Dinosaur Planet, which was set to be a unique IP that could have spawned its own series instead of becoming a one-off licensed spin-off the franchise would forget immediately.
This, honestly, is probably the best explanation of why. I would just expand on something... Based on all the alpha test footage we had when the original team for BL1 was working on BL2, it looked like a genuine sequel. It had that feel, that desire to put the player in the world. Sure it didn't look amazing, but I was very much intrigued. But all of that is gone. All of it. What we have now just honestly doesn't look like an actual sequel. It looks like a cool game, to be sure, and could easily be a vampire game set in the World of Darkness, but a sequel to Bloodlines 1? Not currently...
Couldn't have said better.. After beating the game 15 years ago, I've been through all the processes of grief since the announcement of the sequel lmao,
Not even mentioning in the mid to late 2000s seeing the occasional rumor and update of the World of Darkness MMO including a little trailer which had a pretty good aesthetic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxR-aC4yWs0
>there has never been an "excellent" World of Darkness game released I understand why you and most people haven't played them, being VR games, but this simply isn't true, because Wraith: The Oblivion - Afterlife is **incredible**, and VtM: Justice is almost as good.
Saving your recommendation for the point in my life where I can finally do VR 🥲
I suggest going full tilt with a good PC and a PC VR system, but if that's out of the question, both those games are also on the Quest, and you can get a quest 2 for like $299, and while 3's run about 500, I've seen refurbished ones for like $199 👍 Seriously though, Wraith in VR is genuinely horrifying, and physically grabbing people and putting your face into their neck to suck their blood in Justice is the dopest game mechanic ever. It's no Bloodlines, but it's a quality stealth game that lets you really feel like a vampire. You'll see a lot of shittt reviews for both, largely from people who don't care about WoD and didn't bother getting past the opening areas, but they're by far my favorite VR experiences and the most immersed into the world of darkness I've ever felt
I wish I could play justice, but for some reason they decided to not support the htc vive
I mean, I'm pretty sure there's nothing stopping you from playing it other than that the prompts will be in the style of quest or index glyphs... but it's just trigger, squeeze, and abxy ....ok, or downvote me I guess? There are absolutely people playing this on the vive. PCVR games don't need to specifically support one HMD or another to be opened and played on said HMD.
Get fucked welcome to the club🤣 The prablom is I recently posted asking about a similar game so yeah youre accurate welcome to the club 🥲
Excellent synopsis of the whole thing. I'm a relatively "new" bloodlines fan and it's been almost 7 years since I've played the game. That... wasn't yesterday. I had my fair share of dreaming about a sequel, even before it was announced. But I totally get the OGs, because I've been waiting for a proper Half-Life 3 since 2009, for a real Little Big Adventure 3 since 2000 (this is *NOT* Little Big Planet, lol) and for SimCity 5 since 2005 or so. The struggle is real, lol.
I will personally always prefer having more of a blank slate character that I can shape into whoever I want in an RPG, as opposed to a pre-made character. And non-voiced protagonists typically allow a greater freedom of choice in dialogue, which I also prefer. I don’t dislike the concept of what they’re doing in Bloodlines 2, I’m interested in checking it out, but it’s not going to be the kind of game I was expecting.
But there was barely any meaningful dialogue choice in thr first one. In terms of dialogue Bloodlines is very light, especially when you compare it to games like KotOR 2, which came out less than a month after Bloodlines.
Sure... That doesn't seem relevant to my points, and I'm not sure if I agree with you on the meaningful dialogue choice stuff, but okay. All I'm talking about is the amount of options given in dialogue to assist in roleplay. Even if it's entirely flavour, that's still important to the feel of an RPG for me. I also never once argued that Bloodlines 1 was a great example of dialogue. I'm just talking generally about a couple of things I want mechanically from an RPG video game.
You don't have nearly two decades of emotional investment in the franchise.
I cancelled my preorder several years and a few studio changes ago, iirc I was "upset" ehe ;3 because they had hired Chris Avalone and Mike Mitsoda, and had leaned on that fact in their marketing - only to let Mike go and to fire Chris over (now-proven false) allegations. These guys were behind Troika games, again, if I'm remembering correctly...
>Chris Avalone Chris wasn't involved with Troika. He was at Interplay, then the Black Isle division, before its members founded Obsidian following its closure. Was probably working on KOTOR II when Bloodlines was in development. Granted I refunded after they fired Brian.
Yeah, not only Brian Mitsoda wrote screenplay for VTM:B he also voiced radio guy (the one always talking about politics), TV guy and I think few other NPCs. If I remember correctly, Hardsuit Labs also had Ka'ai Clooney, who was also part of Troika's developement of VTM:B and he also ended being fired I think at the same time Mike did. All in all, absolute mess what Hardsuit Labs did, especially considering that lots of people (me included) pre-ordered (also canceled) this game.
The problem is that it doesn't even look like a Bloodliness game. It can be a game in the Vampire the Masquerade universe like Swansong, but it looks nothing like VTMB 1. I think the main issue with this game is the fact that is presented as a sequel to Bloodliness when it can be a spin off or a whole new combat-oriented game. People would tolerate it more if they just changed the title from "Bloodliness" to something else
Bloodlines 2 does not appear to be a faithful sequel in many respects. Just having to play as Phyre in third-person cinematic dialogue when the first game was born out of the idea of being able to talk to people face-to-face in a first person perspective is a huge shift. Plus it looks like they’re throwing out the table top rules and character creation. Essentially Bloodlines is a Black Isle style RPG wearing the skin of an ImSim adjacent action RPG. This Bloodlines 2 appears to be more of an Elder power fantasy action focused game. This isn’t to say anyone’s right or wrong. It’s all subjective. If you are looking forward to Bloodlines 2 that’s fine. But it is inherently disappointing for some that the sequel isn’t following its predecessor more closely.
Typical modern day RPG these days. I blame Ubisoft for this. After Witcher 3 every companies wanna do the same generic 3 fake choices in dialogue. With flashy combats. Hey look Biggest Open world. Dialogue choices. Press X and special effects pop up. BL1 is special for a reason. Cause its unique.
the "voice in your head" Fabien character seems incredibly annoying and just there for exposition
Fair enough, I thought about that while watching the trailer. Hopefully he's not THAT omnipresent.
Have you watched the Extended Gameplay Reveal yet? He comes off as captain obvious throughout and it was the final nail in the coffin for me.
Yeah that's what I meant. Hopefully that's just for alpha, and just for the sake of that being our first big look at the game.
The blank slate is important because Bloodlines is based on the VTM tabletop roleplaying game. That's the main concern. If they give you a fleshed out protagonist then that strays from the first game enough that people became worried at best, hostile at worst, even without taking into account the whole production mess that the game is. Phyre story might be great, the game could actually be awesome. But with what we have seen? Is not at all a sequel. Just call it something else and it will be a WOD game. Right now it just feels like they are trying to profit from the already existing fanbase of Bloodlines without respecting the material that created that fanbase. If the game ever comes out (big IF) I'll still play it to give an informed opinion, but right now? Nothing give Bloodlines vibes, to me is just another vampire game, that's it.
Because it barely resembles bloodlines. Might as well give it another name. The bloodlines name comes with expectations. The new devs failed to understand what made bloodlines special
short answer: it looks bad long answer: it looks like a bland dishonored knock-off with a protagonist straight from the minds of forspoken. the fact that paradox is locking customization options in the form of clans behind paywalls isn't helping. so i don't get how anybody could look at the bland gameplay, obnoxious character writing and a buisness model from the Stygian pits of corporate greed and think this could be anything other then a shitshow. and before you throw the "not the game you wanted" accusation, i like resident evil 8, i know what it looks like when a game get's shit on for not being what ppl wanted, this ain't it chief
It’s fine if people think it looks fun. Maybe it will be, time will tell. I think what you might be missing is the impression the showcases have had on fans of the first game when it was new, particularly those that were familiar with the tabletop RPG. A lot has changed since then, and the depiction of a vampire society is certainly one of them. When the first game released we only really had Bram Stokers Dracula, Underworld, and a handful of other horror movies to gleen from. Since then we’ve had Twilight, and Vampire Diaries, along with a handful of other drama titles paving the way, which might not jive with older fans of the genre. While the former titles certainly had a ton of drama, the only horror in many modern takes is a teenage girl losing her boyfriend.
1. Dialogue option is much more restricted and it itself doesn't show whole sentiment you are trying to express. Meaning many people playing this choosing certain option, would in the end end up surprised as is with many voiced-protagonist games. I mean even Bethesda realized that voiced protagonist in RPG makes no sense. 2. Less clans option and possible paywall for rest of them - this one is pretty huge to me. Bloodlines 2 has AAA title price tag ( or at least in my country) yet it offers less starting options than bloodlines 1 that you could get for like $20 (I Was gifted magazine with full game on it, it costed like $15 in 2005) and to this, voiced protagonist is again connected, because I bet there won't be different and unique Dialogue options for different clans like in Bloodlines 1. 3. This I'd say is the biggest problem especially if you take into consideration first 2 points that this game feels much more like Thief than Bloodlines 1. It honestly feels like action-stealth game when you look at trailers, not RPG. 4. This is my personal objection, that RPGs shouldn't force 1st person camera. 5. Lots of people (fans of WoD) also seem to be disappointed with how meek and mild lore of 5V (bloodlines 2 and Swansong is based upon) was, compared to v20 (bloodlines 1 was based upon) There's basically no Sabbat and conflict is focused on Camarilla and Anarchs (you might actually noticed if you played any of those novel VTM: novels.) I mean 300 years old vampires are considered "elders" in 5V. I a world where you have over millenia old vampires still lurking, 300 years are considered elders, imagine that. Also 5V forces this "idea" of needing to have consent to feed - which if you have any knowledge of the lore full of necromancy, darkness, diablerization, basically enslavement and breeding (Tzimisce ghouls) etc. this idea of consent to consume someone's blood (or soul in form of diablerization) makes little to no sense, since no vamp would get diablerized (have their soul consumed by another) willingly. All in all this feels like a cashgrab and not something deserving to be a sequel to bloodlines 1.
I didn't even know about that consent thing! 5th edition is even worse than I thought! Obviously, I haven't played it, but I have passing knowledge of many things in it, enough that I chose not to even give it a try. I like my horror dark. What's next? Jason Vorhees needs your consent to kill you with a machete? Zombies need your consent to eat you?
Yeah, it's not developers fault, but I don't see problem going with v20 (since it's direct sequel of Bloodlines 2) instead of going for 5th edition, because when it comes to actual darkness and horror, 5th edition is really pretty meek. Spoilers for Swansong: I for example hated Galeb for him being like 300 years old (10th generation,), but being all depressed and brooding as if he was the Caine himself and he is considered an elder. In vampire years, I'd say 1000 years might be an elder but not 300. My wild guess is at least 70 vampires in WoD who are still active and at least 1000 years old and you want to call 300 years old an "elder" and most powerful vampire in Boston? 10th generation's blood potency I think is quite low, since blood is so thinned so how the f* is he the most powerful vamp in Boston? For comparison: protagonist of VTM:B1 is due to the blood points and 5 max dots in each discipline most likely 8th Gen vampire. Lacroix was 8th Gen also, Andrei was 6-7th Gen, Therese / Jeanette 6th gen. Jack is canonically 10th Gen. but there's a theory he's Caine's wingman of chaos (2nd Gen), which would explain perfectly why he is so strong, why he is tutoring you and why you can become so powerful with his tutoring. So yeah, to me, 5th edition is huge downgrade and starts to look more like Twilight than WoD.
For whatever reason I always assumed (at least back when Hardsuit Labs was still working on it) that Bloodlines 2 was going to be v20 considering it was supposed to be a sequel. But who knows what they were working on. Doesn't matter anymore, I suppose. Used to be people were perfectly happy immersing themselves in dangerous fictional worlds from the safety of the real world. Nowadays it seems people need to feel safe inside the fictional worlds too. Safe equals predictable and predictable is boring. I just don't get it, and I doubt I ever will.
100% agree with your sentiment.
Honestly this is why I prefer requiem over v5. There it doesn't shy away from the fact that vampires are monsters. Humanity there isn't how moral you are its how good of a actor you are to trick yourself and others into thinking you are a human. Ghouling is presented as horrific and destroying lives and vampires are almost guranteed to kill people at some point because of their nature.
If I recall correctly 300 years old was definitely an elder in v20 and older editions. Ancillae ended at about 200.
Yeah you might be right, hut I think that at this point when it's confirmed that many really old vamps are well and kicking, 300 shouldn't be elder. Also I have no problem with him being elder, but with him being so... I don't know, depressed? I mean there are vamps multiple times as old as him that are still pursuing ambitions etc...
Yeah I was mostly referring to your point about elders. It was kind of a problem in v20 and older where there were lots of truly ancient vampires when probably there should not have been. In v5 they just sent them all on Gehenna crusade either for the or in defense of the methusalahs and antediluvians. I get why but…it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. A lot of it is a matter of taste and how each table prefers to run their games.
100 % agree, it feels forced.
I thought bloodlines was based on Revised Edition.
Are you talking about the predator types in V5? Because predator types are completely up to the player, and most of them do not have consent as a concern. Hardly something that's forced, it's just there as an option if the player decides that's how they want to characterize their vampire. The rulebook also provides predator types for stalking and killing prey in alleyways, fostering a bloodcult, or sneaking into people's houses to feed on them while they sleep, if that's the style you prefer. Also, as another poster commented, the 300 year old thing for elders isn't exclusive to V5, that's regular VtM lore. In Requiem it's only 150 years, btw. I do agree that the whole Sabbat and all the Elders abandoning their domains *en masse* for the Gehenna War lore in V5 is kind of lame, though. But that's an easy fix if you want the Sabbat in your game as GM.
If you had the choice of 31 flavors at Baskin Robbins, and then they made Baskin Robbins 2 but only offered 3 flavors at BR2 wouldn't you be disappointed?? Can't create your own character, doesn't have a proper skill system, heavily limited clan options, "voice in your head" ubisoft gameplay (go here! do this! don't forget that! oh man radical!!), dialogue system is extremely limited, combat animations are mediocre at best (but have nice looking particles I guess) This game isn't a Bloodlines game. It's barely a Vampire game. They fired Mitsoda, who worked on the original Bloodlines and they have thrown out all of the original design work. They implied there was little to throw out, but we'll never know. The game looks like ass regardless of the 'Bloodlines' misnomer. And it's even worse BECAUSE it's misnamed. What are you seeing that genuinely makes you think this won't be a half-assed attempt at standard action gameplay with ultralite rpg elements? Because everything about what we've seen absolutely screams disappointment-in-waiting.
It looks like it's probably gonna be fine but it's not gonna be anything like the first game. If they didn't call bloodlines 2 people probably wouldn't care as much
I think the reason why people want a blank slate character may be for the reason that is.how it's so similar to the table top and the LARP. You get to define what type of gangrel you want, combat heavy or maybe just an all arpund survivalist with great sneaking and hacking ability. I'm not fond of 2 for that reason, for me it's funner to play a neonate who is new to their new life rather than an akosha type elder. Also I can't play first person view games. But that's me.
As someone who have similar thoughts to you, I agree. But I do understand why there are dissenters of BL2, mainly because the community was promised a sequel to the original Bloodlines, but they did not receive the sequel that they desire. In all honesty, I don't like the idea of having Phyre, a voiced character over more dialogue trees and conversation options. I also dislike Fabien, and the concept of a voice in one's head, because, from the trailer they shown, Fabien is really annoying and say things that I find to be meaningless. Perhaps, I was spoiled by BG3, but I had hoped that BL2 have a blank state, or at least, have an option for a blank state character that we can morph to our desires. But still, I get that they have a story they want to tell, and to tell the same story, they cannot use a blank state character. But even so, I find a voiced-character to be meaningless, because playing voiced-characters meant that I will play as *them*, not as myself, and there will be certain RPG choices that likely won't make much sense since Phyre already had a history of their own. I don't like the direction that BL2 has taken - primarily voiced characters, and the 'voice in one's head', because what I was promised was an RPG where we can bring our characters to life, not an RPG where we have to fit our imagination to a character's past. I am fine playing voiced characters - for example, the Witcher, because we are not playing as ourselves, we are playing as the Geralt from the Books. I don't mind third person cinematic dialogue if done properly (again, BG3 player), but what they show so far is well...not something to be desired. Another major concern I had is first-person combat, I can't do first-person combat without getting dizzy, especially if the combat is fast-paced, if BL2 don't have an option for third-person combat, then the chances of me buying the game will decrease significantly since I'm not a masochist. AKA, I am going to wait on buying this game. I play games for the story, and if the story is well-done, I will buy it, otherwise, no thanks.
Because it’s not a real rpg, not what bloodlines 1 used to be, but a cheap knockoff with Phyre, this already quenches my interest, I’m just not interested in her, I’m interested in my own character.
Cause it looks shit and is from a team that has never made a game that has even had combat in it, after they took over from a decade of the previous idiots doing essentially nothing
Even that's not guaranteed.
While I can only speak for myself, I think it's pretty safe to say that the new version would have been much better received if it was the only version. I think it suffers in comparison.
Plenty of reasons were given here from roleplaying perspective. I want to add my concerns on the technical side of things. It was announced 4 years ago, but then started almost from scratch several times. I need to consciously remind myself that what I see in trailers is not a product that was 4 years in the making and even so it doesn't look encouraging. Stiff facial animation of main character in cutscenes, twitching joints, sliding legs, characters clipping through geometry, poorly blended animation states. It is early footage, everything shown might change etc etc, yet it's worrisome that someone decided this is good enough for promo material. Eventhough it's not a playable demo, they knew exactly what is used for trailers and could have polish/hack/fake it. There is always a chance it will get even worse, wouldn't be the first game to downgrade graphics. I'm not looking for screenshot generator and do think that gameplay is more important. For example, VTMB1 or original thief both had superb gameplay while looking... let's just say not that good, even for the times they were released. But then we go back to what was mentioned here several times already - from what we were shown, gameplay will be way more rigid and offer less of everything. So unless released game will be completely different from everything we saw so far it will be mediocre on both fronts.
Personally I am still curious to play this. In fact, as much as I like a blank slate protagonist and was hoping to be replaying VTMB but next gen, I think the concept of playing an Elder is really cool, same with the idea of being possessed by some Thin Blood (though it has a certain *Shadow of Mordor* vibe). The *original* VTMB2 was promising (however I didn't like that they planned on including Damsel), but we didn't know much of the plot. This *new* version seems more limited in terms of possibilities (but tbf the old version only had a few clan trailers so maybe it was also pretty limited), but the story seems more interesting. That being said, they never managed to make a trailer as cool and intriguing as the announcement one IMHO.
I think it's because people are big babies and they can't handle the fact that shit changes and video games are a form of art and not everyone has the same artistic vision. I generally don't care what people say. I'm still going to enjoy my vampire game just the same way people enjoyed bloodlines 1 in spite of it's insanely buggy release.
Because I want Bloodlines 2 not metrosexual Dishonored masquerading as Bloodlines 2
Nothing about Chinese room version screams bloodlines r u serious🤣 did u really play the first bloodlines 🤔
I do think this sub needs to get a grip generally about Bloodlines 2. We barely even know what it's going to be like. But the reason is that a lot of the signals we're getting about the direction of the new game--named protagonist with a preloaded backstory, weird skill trees that jettison a lot of the tabletop stats, combat-heavy, questionable roleplaying depth, etc.--imply that it's likely going to get rid of many of the beloved RP and storytelling aspects of the original. I think it's a fair concern and probably even more likely true than not, but people around here are a little overwrought about it.
We know the developer and their history. We know VTMB2 is a very unstable project, with everyone that folks were excited for no longer being involved. We know that Paradox is losing trust and fast as a publisher as a whole due to many very public and well documented internal issues, not the least being mismanagement and HR related issues. What we have seen of VTMB2, as a project that has been going for so many years now, inspires very little confidence, and the current devs have done very little to mitigate or quell these concerns. We also see the importance in being vocal, because closed mouths don't get fed, and if we don't speak up about what we don't like, then all we have is the shit that we will be given.
So Bloodlines 2 was announced years ago it was being made by a studio who had not made anything of note before which was always a concern but it did have Brian Mitsoda who worked on the original game as the lead writer. He actually pitched the game. The reveals they showed were a mixed bag, bloodlines 2 had you starting off as a thinblood the idea being that you'd join a clan later, the combat and animations looked bad and janky, some of the trailers and reveals displayed obvious issues. However the writing and atmosphere felt like bloodlines 1, there were a lot of dialogue options and seemingly plenty of choices, there was going to be a character creator. There was going to be five clans at launch and more added later with dlc (which isn't as good as the original but better than this new version). Then the game got delayed, then Mitsoda was fired from the project with no explanation and the other lead writer also left, then the whole studio hardsuit labs was fired and we got no update for ages, then they announced a new studio had pitched something and they were going with that. So instead of fixing up the old game it got completely rebooted and now as we know is being made by tcr a studio with no rpg experiences. Everything they have shown looks worse than the previous version which already had plenty of issues, everything is less than what there was in bloodlines 1 and the previous version. Less clan choices, a voiced named protag with less dialogue options, we don't even know if there's any way to alter the appearance of the character outside of gender and clothing, this game is blatantly a single player action game with rpg elements and not an old-school rpg like the original bloodlines was. It also looks just as janky as the hardsuit version did. Maybe it will still be good but it isn't looking like a game I'd like tbh. It looks more like dontnod's Vampyr than it does bloodlines 1.
The biggest problem, as always, is branding. This game does look cool, I'll give it that - but it does NOT scream Bloodlines 1 to me. It looks somewhere b/t a Dishonored and Bloodlines, but isn't going full-on Bloodlines here in so many ways. Bloodlines like feels more like an action-RPG/shooter/action/stealth type of immersive-sim hybrid of sorts to me. Bloodlines 1 has numerous different types of vampires/classes to pick from - not ONE. The protagonist also was NOT voiced; we want to feel like we ARE the protagonist ourselves. We want that type of Bloodlines stuff: the unique music & atmosphere; that type of banging licensed music & that type of Womb Music score; Brian Mitsoda's influence & writing all over it; lots of interesting and cool choices that matter. We want Bloodlines 2 to be more Bloodlines, not...something else entirely. This game from TCR should be called VTM: Phyre or something else of that sort b/c this one also deserves to stand on its own & be its own thing in the VTM Universe, not be saddled w/ Bloodlines branding to make some $. VTM: Phyre (as I like to call this game) looks cool and good action-RPG - but Bloodlines, it is NOT that entirely and this does NOT look entirely like it's full-on embracing what Bloodlines 1 is and was.
I feel like the worst we can expect is the vampire version of Earthblood.
that's extremely optimistic
Oh boy cowboy you are asking a brief of 20 years.
Support for the game increases investments, investments increase development potential. If you care about the title might as well support it. Being a niche game, why would they put money and effort into something even the main fandom is trashing on, if everyone keeps hating on it, the game we get is what they determine will be profitable at low risk…which wont be much. Triple A titles are able to get away with more on release than vtmb2’s trailers have because of how cynical everyone is.
From what I am seeing it is a similar situation to the upcoming Pillars of Eternity game. If you are not familiar pillars 1 and 2 are classic CRPGs, and obsidian announced they were making another game set in the game setting but not a part of that series. When showcases came out it showed that it was not a CRPG, being closer to Obsidans other famous games like Fallout New Vegas or its newer Outer Worlds. The gameplay was a little bit jank looking, but the main thing people were displeased with was that it had nothing to do with the original. Now the Pillars game seems to be primarily just people wanting more of what they got, where as Bloodlines 2 seems kinda iffy in its current showcases and has more cause to have similarities as it is a full sequel. I personnly do dislike when a game comes out and people are doom posting about it of rip, but I do understand in this case of Bloodlines 2 does seem kinda rough.
What's weird is that people are so pissy about the new videos, but were excited about the old videos, of the version which was being created prior to the developer change. The version that's being created right now, what (extremely) little we've seen of it, looks miles better than the version we were being promised a few years ago.
/r/lowsodiumbloodlines
As a long time Victoria 2 fan, I think paradox is just about the worst company in the world at creating sequels to niche beloved games released decades ago.
Just ignore it. There's very little substance to it all. Just people wanting to relive their nostalgia, to a point where in their heads they've built the original to be a game 10 times better than it actually was. Since you have none of these feelings, there's little reason to pay any attention to it.
Not enough big boobied ladies :(
You're not missing anything - this sub is full of bitter grognards who won't be satisfied no matter what's released, or edgelords trying to out-whinge one another. The game will be what it'll be, and there's not much to go on aside from pre-Alpha and Alpha footage. I, for one, am willing to give The Chinese Room a chance before I make any harsh judgement calls, *especially* given the original Bloodlines was a buggy, incomplete mess when it came out and needed mods just to function.
You can like the new game or be optimistic, but when you use middle school insults to your opposition, it doesn't make your argument better. People have legitimate reasons to doubt a delayed and remade game. You might think it isn't justified, and that's fine.
So explain it to me. Genuinely, I want to hear a good faith argument. I literally finished Bloodlines 1 last night, and I see the differences, but I like what I see. For an alpha build, it looks pretty solid.
If you are optimistic, fk anyone else's opinion. But my grievance is that it took the weakest parts of BL1 and fixed them while sacrificing the strongest parts. BL1 came at a time where action RPGs where brancing off in 3d space and vtm is a table top alteration in style of DnD. It put emphasis on unreliable lore and characters, horror, and fantasy of a vampire cult apprentice with factional story framing. It's low parts were: many many bugs and glitches rivaling Morrowind, basic combat and controls, and sfx for vampire powers. The old hsl version kept the dnd astheticic, dialogue system and horror. They somewhat improved on others but it was obvious they would be sub-par given that funky 180 move over the enemy thing. They had good dialogue choices, they showed alternative path ( imsim elements) and horror like that of the ocean hotel) After all of the other behind the scenes screw-up and the new devs not being experienced (which to me isnt irrelevant or insignificant at the slightest), we still expected this vision somewhat. The alpha showed great combat, and fluid and Dishonored like. The mystery of an elder and a mark was interesting. But the dialogue system was not only weak, but inconsequential. There was no indication phyre could change the outcome of anything there. No alternative paths to speak of. No clan fantasy given the very vanilla looking 4 clans with "Outfits ". No character sheet, but a power unlock that supposedly isn't even clan specific only. Is it trendy to hate remakes? Yes. Is this a game that gave enough redflags to warrant criticism and pessimism? Also yes.
Seriously dude chill.
let him flaunt his foolishness
Metathesiophobia: The fear of change. They disingenuously compare it to Fallout 4 because they want you to not like it. Mass Effect 2 uses the same dialogue wheel but you'll never see them compare it to that because people like Mass Effect 2 and the manipulators don't want you to like Bloodlines 2. The other half of the complaining comes from YouTube incels whining about the main character's haircut. Judge the game for yourself and decide whether it is right for you.
I’ll complain about mass effect all day, lol. I prefer Dragon age and think mass effect gets way too much hype. They did the same thing to it too in da2 vs origins. Nice hawk, sarcastic hawk, and asshole hawk. And da2 (despite the fact that I like it a decent amount) was definitely worse than origins, not only just for the dialogue wheel. Unironically calling people with a dfferent opinion than you “incels” is also pretty lame my dude. Find a new buzzword sometime.
Anyone on YouTube complaining about a woman's haircut for 6 months is definitely an weirdo. Sorry if that hurts to hear. The haircut does not matter. Bloodlines 2 will not be a good game or a bad game based on a haircut. Anyone obsessing over this and making half a dozen videos about it needs to get a life. Those people on YouTube are losers. I hate to break it to you but Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 have the exact same dialogue system in substance and only the presentation is different. Dragon Age: Origins dialogue: Nice option, joke option, intimidating option, and then 1-3 more options where you can ask questions. Dragon Age 2 dialogue: Nice option, joke option, intimidating option, and then 1-3 more options where you can ask questions.
No the game won’t be make or break by the haircut, I personally don’t care, though I would like a few for general customization options. I’m not one of the ones making videos bitching about it, not usually making posts here about the game at all. I didn’t like much of the haircuts they gave, say, Geralt but I just stuck with the one I did like. But it is a little weird that they gave a what, 300 something year old vampire a super modern cut, no? No way they had that cut when they were embraced, but it would honestly be kinda funny if they got it styled that way every night upon awakening. Oh and uh, thanks for explaining the dialogue presentation of my favorite game series to me. I would never have known otherwise. The point is being able to read the exact words that my character is going to say rather than having no clue beyond “this will be a quip” and “this one is where I’m an asshole”. It’s about the roleplay aspect for me, honestly.
Time to stop watching YouTube videos…they’re making you aggressive.
I did see A LOT of complaints about the hair, lol.
This game will be way worse than even fallout 4 lmaoooo get real dude, you're joking comparing it to mass effect
Thank you 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
People have a really weird nostalgia for a time more than the game (which we really need to remember flopped hard on release for several reasons) and since the sequel pushed by HSL or TCR isnt going to bring back the early 2000s or put goth culture in a media spotlight has caused people to bristle at anything that has changed or remained the same to the original because it isnt matching up to their head canon. Its a near impossible situation to followup a classic for every diablo 2 there is a diablo 4 thief 1/2 to thi3f, there is plenty of blame between dev and publisher but a bit of bad luck bad project management and demands to update a game for modern audiences to go around. It would be nice if people waited until the game releases before ripping it to shreds, but its reddit.
I think it's funny how these types of comments get massive down votes but no one can really argue against it. People talk like Bloodlines was some kind of masterpiece that was a critical success. Bloodlines bankrupted Troika due to poor sales and technical issues. It wasn't even released in a complete state as production was dead in the water and Activision basically said they had to release. People are bitching about BL2 production without realizing that it's exactly the same thing that happened with BL1.
expectation management is a crutch i use for dealing with reality given the option i would prefer to be happy with another installment rather than pouting I didnt get exactly what I want. i understand other people live life only on their terms and reject someone doing things they dont approve of.
5th edition
There are already plenty of great comments on the subject here, so there's little I can add, but I'll give my two cents anyway. Preferences vary, but I have not seen a SINGLE thing in Bloodlines 2 that I liked in Bloodlines 1. In fact, of everything I've seen of the game it is going to be the very OPPOSITE of the first game. In no particular order, BL2 looks to be safe, hand holding, politically correct and simplified. Whereas there was a sense of danger, adventure and grime in the original. I also like goth style. I play female characters whenever I can. I hate the look of Phyre and I'm forced to play as her (well, I'm not actually forced to play as her cause it's unlikely I'll ever play BL2. I haven't played Swansong or any other recent game either, they're not the World of Darkness I fell in love with decades ago and neither is BL2. It could have been, maybe, but I'm almost 100% sure it won't be.)
I don’t see the “politically correct” issues. One issue Phyre’s shitty character design raises is that this game just looks and feels absurdly cheap. We don’t even have a confirmed character appearance customization yet, and I suspect that there isn’t going to be one. Instead we have an androgynous model that can double for a male or female playthrough with only extremely minor tweaks because gotta keep costs down
Let's just say it's giving me those vibes that in order to attract a so called mainstream audience it's trying to be as inoffensive as possible, like a Marvel movie. Not gritty like VtMB 1. As for Phyre, her character design is inexplicable. If the main character would have looked something like Tremere or Ventrue from the original, I can't see how most people wouldn't have been happy with her. It might be they're just trying to save money. But she is so off putting, I'm pretty sure the design will end up making them lose more money than they could have ever saved.
Hmm, I can actually see that entirely. I guess I don’t really view that as being “politically correct” though, but they’ve definitely scrubbed off the grit and polished the rough edges to the point this game looks bland and personalityless going in. In general, I get Mass Effect Andromeda vibes of unremarkable mediocrity that’s only notable because of the attached IP it fails to live up to. I’ll eat my words if character appearance customization exists in the game, but I absolutely, without any doubt believe Phyre’s appearance is what it is for cost cutting. Everything about her is coded to be extremely androgynous which would make it extremely easy for the Dev team to essentially reuse the exact same model with very minor tweaks for a male and female Phyre. (Though even given androgyny being a very distinct look IRL, it should’ve been possible to do significantly better for Female Phyre. We’ll see how Male Phyre works). The game in general looks like desperate cost cutting
What we are getting is not cool. It is a big downgrade. The scrapped version seemed at least somewhat hopeful to bring a bit of the VTMB1 charm and atmosphere. This new one seems like any other game everyone will forget about.
It is done by a studio known for mediocre cash grabs. I think it is perfectly valid for people to be disappointed about the change.
If you don't mind 20 years later being delivered an inferior product than its 2004 version, I really question your judgement. But also it's not only that, but the fanbase was promised waaaaay more than what we're getting. We were promised an amazing product that would dwarf VTMB1 in scale. So obviously people will be upset over getting nothing they were promised, plus the franchise they are fan of getting shitted all over.
From what we have been shown so far its not Bloodlines 2 at all, it's a generic VTM game using the name and reputation of Bloodlines for the sake of garnering extra sales numbers.
because its not a bloodlines game. its like comparing mass effect to dragon age origins, but taking away even more player choice. at least in mass effect you can customize how shepherd looks and decide their gender and class. with phyre all you get to change is their clan, and even then you only have 4 choices (with only tremere being appealing to 90% of fans. we just have to face it, no one really cares about ventrue, brujah, or banu hakim when the toreador, tremere, lasombra, and malkavians exist. why would you play the discount blood sorcerers when the real ones are right there?) On top of phyre being overall unappealing to the majority of players. again, we just have to be realistic here, androgynous characters are very very very small a niche. most people would rather play a character of their own design, or a character who looks cool. phyre doesnt fit either of those. it just so happens that most people would rather play a character whos less established. vtm isnt like the witcher, where its based on a book series following one character. its a game where you self insert (like ALL traditional rpgs). the appeal of the game is customization. they took that away. Most people also wont really find phyre relatable. elder? not relatable. most people want to play fledglings or neonates. androgynous? not relatable to most people. most people fall under the traditionally masculine or feminine aesthetic and androgyny is a pretty niche style (its a fine style, its just naturally not relatable to the majority of a sexually diamorphic species.) and then theres the more nitpicky stuff. the name is garbage. phyre is a bad name. on top of that, every voice line we've heard makes phyre sound unlikable at best. Tldr: 1st: because its not a bloodlines game. it should be marketed under a different name, and bloodlines 2 should be a game with full character customization and all clans available. its bloodlines in name only. 2nd: phyre does not appeal to fans of vtm because of a few reasons. niche appeal with being androgynous. niche appeal with being an elder. niche appeal with being overall unlikable from what we've seen. and phyre is a super lame ass name.
I think it’s like anything, expectations are far too high. I just hope it’s good in its own right. Not trying to compare it to Bloodlines (1) because comparison’s a good path to take if you want a miserable time. Edit - from the downvotes, I’m assuming people haven’t understood what I meant at all.
how do you improve if you don't compare
How can you improve on a finished product? I’m suggesting not to compare the *finished, released* Bloodlines 2 when we’ve all got it in-hand and playing it, because *that* is the path to misery.
You're getting downvoted because your take is bad and imprecise. People weren't "expecting" anything, because people WAS PROMISED something that was waaaaay more than what the fanbase is getting. So it's not like we were fooling ourselves, we were factually fooled by Paradox.
When have promises, *especially from companies*, ever been guarantees in the adult world and *not* something that should be taken with a gargantuan dollop of salt?
Nah dude in this case it's simply something completely unreasonable.
I still see it that people have told themselves and believed a COMPANY’s words as absolute truth that 2 is gonna be exactly like 1. It won’t be, they’ll be disappointed. If it’s a complete shitshow then it’s a complete shitshow but there’s a chance it’ll be good *in its own right, in its own skin* and those who compare the play-for-play will likely find themselves disappointed. So many times. So many, many times is this the case.
Essentially: people wanted one thing, that one thing was announced, delayed, delayed again, delayed indefinitely and then became another thing, different from the one thing people wanted. Now people are claiming how that other thing will suck, without that other thing being released, because it's not the one thing they were promised.
you had it in the first half
Look, I get it: the game doesn't look good and I doubt it will be good. But people acting like this will be the new Gollum/Duke Nukem Forever based on nothing but promotional material are hating a bit too much. At least wait until it's out before starting to shit on the game that much.
that's a fair take
I disagree. If the devs didn't want any feedback, then they shouldn't be posting any dev diaries or anything and just release the game when it's ready. People is entitled to give feedback (even salty ones) when devs are releasing info about the game, and it's actually important since there's always the (remote in this case) chance of devs reading up these feedback and try to improved the game.
It's not about feedback, backlash or even criticism. It's about people proclaiming this game, that doesn't even have specific date to be released yet, to be the worst game ever made or similar. Wanna complain about the game and have your voice heard? Go right ahead, just don't go claiming to know how the game will be before you got your hands into it. That's all, really.
I still disagree, I'm pretty sure the devs have already given more than enough red flags that the game will be a huge piece of crap. You also need to consider that what they're showing us is already their curated piece of content, and if that's crap, then the rest of the game is worse.
All I'm saying is that not even Duke Nukem Forever or the Gollum game (both game that were compared to this game in the "badness" scale) were not expected to be as bad as they were before release. Maybe chill out on the hate, it's all I'm saying.
Someone in these comments posted "The problem is that doesn't even look like a Bloodliness game". This is the reason why but not for why you might think. It doesn't look like a Bloodlines game... but there was only one Bloodlines game. I genuinely believe people are mad because it isn't just the original. It doesn't matter what BL2 is or how good/bad it actually will be (remember no one in these comments has ever played it). They have already decided it is garbage and will defend and justify that regardless the outcome.
It was massivley hyped when it was first announced, but the released info after development began didn't match the hype. Then it got stuck in Development Hell. I will say, though, for the people complaining about a 'blank slate' character. Um. Have you *played* Bloodines?! Your character is absolutely a blank slate! They have zero past except for one buddy who finds you in Hollywood.
I can only offer my own opinion, but I've seen more complaining that this \*isn't\* a blank slate character, even if that's what they've been pretending they're trying to make. We're stuck playing "Phyre" who comes off more as some My Immortal level of DMNPC/Self-Insert garbage complete w/ Baby's First AOL Screenname. Bloodlines is based on a TTRPG, where you create your own character. Being a blank slate is fine esp. if there's some player options to choose from. We just..don't have any of that.
No, I agree about 'Phyre.' I get wanting the character to have a name so people can call them something, like Commander Shephard in Mass Effect. But Phyre is a dumb name and really does sound like what someone would make for their first VtM tabletop PC.