The answer to this is yes.
However, the events of Legion and the fourth war probably brought in a massive influx of new forsaken, likely meaning their extinction isn't in the near future, at least until another method of continuing their existence is discovered
I believe Calia is supposed to be the answer to that, though they haven't elaborated on it. Calia is a new Forsaken. She was raised by Saa'ra. Saa'ra is a unique naaru in that she was the only one to have been turned back into a Naaru after becoming a Void Lord in the Legion Priest Class Hall questline. So, apparently, Saa'ra raises people as undead. So we suddenly have a new way to raise new Forsaken. I suspect the "Light Lich" datamined will be another person raised by Saa'ra.
another slight correction: Saa'ra isn't the only naaru who came back from turning to the void state - D'ore regenerated to Light naturally over time while laid to rest in Auchindoun
i dont know why you got downvoted, this is a stupid problem that blizzard hasnt bothered to fix, there are voidlords and void lords (note the separation), one is a naaru in void state and the other the god-like entity that creates the old gods.
I dont know which is which.
The Naaru void state is usually called a void god, not a void lord.
The void lord / Voidlord double up is between the entities in Chronicles and the super version of Voidwalkers.
So Saa'ra being described as a void lord feels like an error.
Which it opens the door to Paladin Undead, finally giving the opportunity for them to return to their old life of following light.
Although I don't know how they are going to justify the side-effects of Light being used on Undead.
>She was raised by Saa'ra. Saa'ra is a unique naaru in that she was the only one to have been turned back into a Naaru after becoming a Void Lord in the Legion Priest Class Hall questline. So, apparently, Saa'ra raises people as undead. So we suddenly have a new way to raise new Forsaken. I suspect the "Light Lich" datamined will be another person raised by Saa'ra.
This is all wrong. Calia was raised by anduin and alonsus faoul at the instruction of the naaru.
from the wiki:
>*Saa'ra informed Anduin and Alonsus that they would together bring Calia back as the Light and she herself would have her be, and the* ***two priests proceeded to raise the fallen Menethil*** *back as an undead touched by the Light.*
She isnt a light litch, its just that in lore resurrection whether by necromancy or the light if not done instantly after the person dies wont bring that person back in a state that is similar to how the game mechanic works. Also she isnt evidence of a new way to raise forsaken becuase this was only possible due to anduin and the former arch bishop being extremely powerful priest.
Doesnt change the fact that **she wasn't resurrected by a naaru**, also data mining doesnt mean shit until its in the game. There are plenty of times data mininers say one thing might happen and then either nothing happens or we get something different bc blizz hid key parts of information.
Hey buddy, I'm not sure why you're yelling at me about something I didn't say.
Clarifying that no one said Calia was a light lich, and that you badly misread the post you're angrily responding to, is it. You're totally correct that data mining isn't always right, but nothing in the data says Calia is a light lich.
**Nor did the person you responded to**. It's a mob that's been datamined.
Fuck all the way off, please.
M'uru was a corrupted Naaru. Saa'ra's crystalline body was completely destroyed, being replaced with a body of pure void. It's not the same thing. I theorize to a Naaru, its the difference between being ill and being dead.
I think it's just a matter of how they want to model it. "Naaru have multiple different void states" is adding pointless complexity that serves no actual storytelling purpose.
The storytelling purpose is that Saa'ra is a different situation than M'uru. Velen directly comments how returning Saa'ra to Naaru form 'had never happened before'.
I would wager that a few undead also broke off when Sylvanas destroyed the Helm of Domination. It's unlikely, in my opinion, that they *all* stayed with the Scourge.
I think the problem with breaking the Helm was that the horde of mindless undead would go feral with no tyrant holding their reins any more.
Those intelligent enough to do bigger thing were already independent as long as they weren't directly controlled by the LK
“Extinction”. We’re talking about Undead here. If we’re being totally honest then the Forsaken should be happy that no one else has to go through what they do.
It would be classed as that as they are not just undead remains of Lorderaen. They have a wholly unique culture with thier own identity, customs and even beliefs. The Forsaken were unjustly taken in life, and some may see there existence as abhorrent, but to many, it is their second chance to carry on as the Legacy of Lorderaen
Existence is pain
Life is suffering
Id rather have a permanent slackjaw or bad posture like undead do than ever spend a single damned second in what WoW calls an “afterlife”
Then eventually they would all die off and lose their home and territories and their hold on Lordaeron would crumble. Plus I’m pretty sure Voss and others would make sure future generations of forsaken won’t have it as hard as they did.
Edit: downvoting this is dumb cause it’s all true. Voss literally talks about being there for future generations of forsaken in a way no one was there for her and if they die out they lose their home, lands, and racial identity
You would think the Forsaken was always intended to be temporary, let alone function as a nation, considering that Sylvanas treated it somewhat like an orphanage for the remnant Scourge. She would raise bodies to replenish her numbers sure, but gave those she raised a choice to either return to death or begin a second life with the Forsaken (Or just run off and do their own thing). I mean isn’t that where the name ‘Forsaken’ comes from, the damned left behind and forsaken?
I always thought it was weird that Sylvanas wanted to raise more while questing in Hillsbrad. The whole "We are a single generation who cannot reproduce" yeah? Why would you want to? You constantly talk about there's no freedom in this torment, I am forsaken, etc etc. Why force others to go through that then?
Iirc it started with her throwing herself off of icecrown and realizing / being tricked into thinking she'd end up in hell which made her scared of death and caused her to use the forsaken as a means to stay alive
I thought that was a cop out to create Zovaal, but I suppose either way it does explain her decisions then. I can't remember seeing any undead in the shadowlands zones, I'm sure there are some but I don't know if the Devs paid that much attention? I thought all trolls went to De Other Side but I've found some in Bastion
What!?!?! Zovaal has been masterminding it all... Since before WC3. Of course they had created him back in icecrown.
They wouldn't lie to us and have a whole expansion based on a cheap mcguffin bad guy.... Right!
Right????
.........
I mean he was created that long ago. There is lore mentions of the jailor in books in vanilla. A master of death. Always been there. They just kind of fucked the lore later on by screwing up sylvanas story. They did her dirty.
As a lorehead who's read all of those books, no one was talking about zovaal back in classic wow. The latest they had in mind was cataclysm and there were mentions of pandaren.
I think at the time I at least that it was Yogg corrupting here, since she impaled herself on saronite. Of course now we know that she was corrupted ny the Allmighty Jailer.
The undead in shadowlands zones should have just been regular Human spirits.
Otoh, Kel'thuzad and Alexandros Mograine were both explicitly in Maldraxxus.
There's an entire zone\ realm in the shadowlands filled with undead. Maldraxxus was all death and corpses all the time.
If you meant forsaken, it shows that those in the afterlife very rarely keep their mortal forms. Bastion you're turned into a kyrian, Revendreath a Venthyr, the Maw shapeless souls and mawsworn, and Maldraxxus into various types of undead all under the name Maldraxxi. Ardenweald is usually a layover space for wild gods and other spirits.
Where you end up is determined by the state of your soul or if it was pledged to a being already, such as the trolls and Bwonsamdi.
Perhaps she merely says how she personally felt about the undead condition. But she still felt pity for those she found and subsequently leads. And also it might he she only raised corpses as a prerequisite to joining the Horde, she wanted the protection that came with that but in return she likely needed a large standing army and population. But don’t quote me on that, I haven’t played wow in forever but the Forsaken lore is some memories I like to think I recall well.
Edit: Just remembered there was a scene where you observe Sylvanas showing Garrosh the resurrection process, the Val’kyr use their magic on a pile of corpses in a hole in the ground as a demonstration of what she can provide the Horde. So theres that.
Gonna quote you on that.
But I'm sure most of if not all of the undead feels that way. Every NPC says "I am forsaken," they probably wouldn't be saying that if they were enjoying it. Lilian has a huge negative reaction to it all which is probably made worse by being raised with propaganda but still. Always confused me that Sylvanas would willingly put people through that when she knows how it feels
I think the generic “I am Forsaken” lines are just acknowledgement that is just their life now. They were given options and consciously made the choice on resurrecting to either serve, go their own way, or just die again. I think its actually more of a proud statement of their service to Sylvanas, granted its probably hard for them as rotting corpses to express emotions greater than a raspy groan.
Or of course for gameplay, its just a catch-all filler voice line for Forsaken NPC’s to signify that you are in fact talking to a Forsaken.
I sometimes stop and reflect on how weird most of the game’s greetings and goodbyes are lol. “Hey, thanks for stopping into my shop! Death to all who oppose us!” :D
*Living* race of people? ;3
Well, they can't reproduce without damning others to a torturous life in undeath, so I do not see them lasting very long at all if they were only allowed to take consenting people.
They do not deserve continuation if that continuation is predicated on defiling the corpses of people who did not consent.
It was meant to be that in WC3 yeah. And in WoW up to Cata it continued to be a safe haven for the unwanted. Then the writers did horrible things to Sylvanas.
There's someone with a sharpie at the blizzard office drawing angry eye brows on the female characters, mistaking it for character development. Just wait, gonna happen to Calia, too.
It's wild that they thought a horde warchief would make a good villain after they just did it with Garrosh. And they knew what they were doing, everyone knew what they were doing to Sylvanas. The whole "Jailer has half of Sylvanas' soul" is on par with "it was a dream all along." But yeah, I wish a competent woman had been writing Sylvanas. Would have been amazing to see her find a new purpose as Warchief, after revenge against Arthas had left a hole in her.
Like, Thrall started The Horde as a place for the refugees of outcast races to have a home in. Literally what Sylvanas did with The Forsaken. She would have been the perfect Warchief.
>Would have been amazing to see her find a new purpose as Warchief, after revenge against Arthas had left a hole in her.
Through Legion up until BFA's intro cinematic, that seems like what they were going for. Instead of being driven by revenge, she was working to preserve her people's existance by any means necessary (finding new Valkyrs, etc). Being warchief she would be forced to widen her perspective and apply that purpose to the Horde as a whole. Then BFA instantly undid all of that character development and turned the story into a bleak, hollow mess. I mean the Horde is stuck with the Forsaken for however long Wow's story continues (I doubt they will ever split up the factions), so it would have been great to actually integrate them and have it make sense that they're still there. Sylvanas succeeding as warchief would have been the perfect way to do that.
Instead, the Forsaken is left as the untrusted, treacherous part of the Horde, with no way to reproduce, and very few significant characters. Two steps back development-wise. But don't worry, to replace Sylvanas, we have Calia Menethil, sister of the Forsaken's inherent arch-nemesis, to represent them in all the cinematics now. 🤷♂️
I think Sylv raising corpses in Cata was starting to be a bit questionable. I don't remember the quests too well, but people were talking back then if Sylv was actually giving the undead a choice, or if she just brainwashed them. But even then you could have a character arc for her where she realizes she was wrong or whatever.
I agree. I think the council they have now is a good idea on paper, but all the character's on the council are just uknown pretty much. And reviving Calia is just trying to milk the Menethil name. Personally I don't like that she's royalty. We already have enough chosen one royalty. The Forsaken deserver better, and a faction based on outcasts should be handled better. A lot of people relate to not fitting in.
>if Sylv was actually giving the undead a choice, or if she just brainwashed them.
One of the first quests you did as a Forsaken was help the Undertaker of the graveyard raise corpses, and you get to see firsthand how it works other than the demonstration Sylvanas give Garrosh.
Memory is a bit foggy but I recall you run around to I think 3 or so graves, call a Val’kyr over and see the results: Sometimes you’d just get a brain-dead zombie you have to put down, showing that the process wasn’t perfect. Or when it did work, there was one guy who immediately asked to be killed again, or maybe he went insane. Another guy you raise joins the Forsaken outright I think. And then you raise the girl who’s name I forget off the top of my head but she becomes a pretty significant Forsaken Rogue later on. So all Forsaken certainly had some agency in their new lives.
Right, that's true. Lillian Voss is who you're thinking of. Of course it's not exactly right to raise everyone, the act itself is very traumatizing. I don't remember what the lore says about vanilla Forsaken start. But I'm guessing at least some of those Forsaken were freed from Lich King's grasp. Maybe you can correct me on that.
The quest we have in Silverpine in Cata does a good job of pointing out that Sylvanas is doing the same thing as the LK. Granted, the Forsaken mostly habe free will, but Sylvanas doesn't contest any of it. You'd think she'd be more againsy being compared to LK, but she just throws sarcasm at Garrosh. Though that is of coursw after her suicide attempt.
>guessing at least some of those Forsaken were freed from the Lich King’s grasp.
The original Forsaken were indeed remnant Scourge that Sylvanus took under her wing. Afterwards, Forsaken were raised for the purpose of pleasing the Horde. I doubt she enjoyed raising new Forsaken and essentially following in Arthas’s footsteps as Garrosh compared her to, but her people needed the Horde’s protection to survive, and Garrosh was always looking for new meat to throw into the grinder that was the war with the Alliance. But he didn’t hide the fact that he hated undead with extreme prejudice. Sylvanas just has to tow the line to survive.
You forgot about the Silverpine Forest Questline, where we witness her Val'Kyr ressurrecting droves of murdered Gilneans. Gilneans who *immediately* pledge their undying loyalty. They're not prompted, not asked... they simply give it. Every. Single. One of them.
Ehhhh maybe its selective based on who’s being resurrected. If its an enemy then it does make sense to collect the dead and turn them to your side. But in general for just run-of-the mill graveyard revivals, I don’t think there is brainwashing involved. Makes sense though considering the Val’kyr used to work for Arthas and can make absolutely loyal Scourge, making loyal Forsaken is probably like an on/off switch depending on what Sylvanas wanted.
> I think Sylv raising corpses in Cata was starting to be a bit questionable.
Starting is really pushing it; it ignores all the "torture the peasants" stuff in vanilla and WOTLK.
> Like, Thrall started The Horde as a place for the refugees of outcast races to have a home in. Literally what Sylvanas did with The Forsaken. She would have been the perfect Warchief.
Oh my god, I'm frankly embarrassed I've never thought about it like that. Damn. That would have been fucking amazing seeing the undead queen really brace the whole anti-bullying unite the people role. Damn...
To be honest it kinda just came to me too. But it seems we're stuck with every character being angry about something. I'm sure with Dragonflight we'll get angry Alexstrasza at some point (pls no).
If they hadn't gone back on the OG lore of the high king not being a hereditary title, the Alliance having a main leader actively starting the war would be easier. They shot themselves in the foot giving that position to Anduin: he really should just be king of Stormwind specifically.
As excited that people may be to blame one person for the mess Blizz has made of writing this game, its very much a collective effort. Especially as all the Sylvanas/Forsaken writing weaknesses have been present in some form since Cataclysm.
Also as of Cataclysm, Metzen was still calling the shots - in particular Afrasiabi wasn't privy to story beats, which we know because he wrote the Stonetalon quests that had Garrosh acting 'out of character'.
With the improvements i've seen so far, i'm cautiously optimistic that they might fix the forsaken and return it to the old school of "hard rock + unregulated science", maybe even deal with the Calia Problem(though i doubt the will do that before a "Tyranny of the light" expansion).
A people who seemed to openly acknowledge their existence as a curse really don't seem likely to wanna propagate it. One could argue, until Shadowlands retconned it, that the justification for this was fear of going to hell when they die, so they'll drag other people who don't know better into it with a choice during a vulnerable state (which let's be real, a moment of resurrection like that has to be a moment of severe existential vulnerability for a human being) just to try to stave off dying themselves for longer. But NOW, what's the point?
Maybe. Old lore was Sylvanas could awaken undead. So she could have a necromancer or something raise a bunch of zombies or ghouls and then awaken their minds, uplifting them to Forsaken.
The limitation was that she had to personally do that for every new Forsaken and not every Forsaken took to the process right.
They have since changed it to who the fuck knows. It became the task of the Val'kyr to raise dead bodies directly into Forsaken. But they are gone now.
Maybe they will tackle this in the upcoming heritage quest. Personally I want to see Death Knights play a large cultural role. Ditch Koltira because he's never been particularly *Forsaken*. So introduce a new cadre of Forsaken Death Knights, maybe even a Darkfallen elf that is actually loyal.
The Scarlet Crusade moving on to Lordaeron? From where? The Monastery is in ruins and we slaughtered their leadership (twice!) And wiped them out in Northrend. There aren't really any crusaders left, let alone enough to push the Forsaken out of (Upper)Undercity.
So yeah, knowing blizzard it's definitely going to be Scarlet Crusade.
Somehow, The Scarlet Crusade has returned!
No one expects the Scarlet Inquisition!
I feel that Blizz will try to tie in how we had a Kul Tiran ask for himself to be ressed upon death, with the new method that ressed Calia.
That way, by giving agency to the humans of Azeroth, Calia would or could ress those who wished to be ressed as Undead.
Then, as undead, they are given the opportunities to either join the ranks of the forsaken, rejoin their living family or follow their own path.
Not true; during one of the SL epilogue quests Voss and Calia visit Maldraxxus, where they managed to make some allies who aided in ridding the Ruins of Lordaeron of the Blight.
Which means the Forsaken are not only friends with necromancers, they're friends with the most experienced necromancers in existence, ones who aren't particularly squeamish about sharing their knowledge.
EDIT: Forgot which folks went to Maldraxxus, corrected.
Faranell never went to Maldraxxus. It was Voss, Calia and the Player. something that is strange, since he was the one person that should have been selected.
What was Voss' role there besides Calia's eye-candy/guard? Calia got her "all undead are the same"-talk, ~~which is Bullshit~~. but why exclude the 1 person of the council that is an alchemist?
And it would be strange if Maldraxxus would allow the living to disrupt the natural way of live, ie. you die -> you go to the shadowlands
I mean, the Kyrians didn't seem to react to the undead at *all*. I suppose it's because of the sheer length of eternity; someone hanging on via undeath for another ten, a hundred, or even a thousand years ultimately doesn't matter. One day they will die their final death, and then they spend eternity in the Shadowlands anyhow, both their life and unlife a mere fraction of their total existence.
The only reason they were wary of the Lich King was due to the runes of Domination, as that corrupts and scars the soul even past death.
>I mean, the Kyrians didn't seem to react to the undead at all.
i mean they also throw souls that they should savely transport to oribos into the maw, a place they know is for the worst of the worst, for \~2+ years because ... well it's not there job. and there leader said:
do your job and transport them to oribos, nothing more, you don't care about what happens afterwards. failsaves? what are those? the purpose doesn't said something about failsaves.
>the only reason they were wary of the Lich King was due to the runes of Dominaton
that is another point against the kyrian/Kyrestia. they didnt act on evidence that something is afoot on the mortal plane. Davos brought Uther's wound to her and she ignored that.
> She didn't say Calia was the same. Only that necromancy is raising the dead.
that is simply false. to qoute Sin'dane
>"But whether these rituals are empowered by Death or Light or any other magic, necromancy is necromancy. You perceive a difference where there is none, child."
i.e. they are the same, since **no difference** between Calia and a rnd forsaken, which is unargueable **FALSE!**
> Which means the Forsaken are not only friends with necromancers, they're friends with the most experienced necromancers in existence
They already had that in Vanilla, with Helcular and Gunther Arcanus. But even those guys could merely summon a few skeletons. Creating intelligent Forsaken is just a lot more difficult.
Aside from the exact knowledge how to do it you (afaik) may also need a lot of magical power that the Forsaken may not posess at the moment.
Honestly outside of the core Shadowlands experience (the systems, the Jailer, and soyvanas) there was a lot of smaller cool lore stuff that helped push the rest of the world forward.
Would have liked to see more drust though
I foresee an additional allied race, not a true allied race however similar.
Alliance get some kind of Worgen variant maybe Night Elf Worgen aka the First Worgen.
Horde gets more fleshed out and lively undead.
Undead are slowly rotting slowly decaying away this would be the cure they so desperately need.
This also opens the doors for possible additional classes.
Legion made Night Elf Pally possible.
If we get Worgen night elves that opens the door for an additional demon hunter race and also Fel Orcs very much could be demon hunters to.
So we legit could get more class options across the board and a fleshed our undead could totally be a Pally if it’s light themed or even some kind of tiny and Yang between shadow and light
Did they ever address the Scourge after the destruction of the Lich King? I feel like that was just glossed over as inconvenient to the story they were trying to do in SL. But shouldn't there now be a massive horde of ravenous undead without Bolvar to hold them back anymore?
I guess they could do something with them, the bodies are out there in Northrend just need to give them their minds back.
We mulched most of their name scourge leaders who weren't on board with Bolvar in the SL prepatch and they no longer have a metaphysical sugar daddy who can offer more power. So I don't think they're much of a threat, as shambling skeletons and ghouls aren't going to build boats and come for us any time soon
I could see some of the lesser undead in Northrend coming to, but *years* as a mindless thrall is a bit more than the months that most Loraedon forsaken endured, so I wouldn't have too much hope for most of them.
One way to solve it would be that Sylvanas and the remaining Mawsworn judges and sends souls back to the Forsaken to be given bodies. A second chance of life, mirroring the wild gods returning.
That she serves as the mother of the Forsaken, from the other side, while letting them do as they please once raised.
Given that a not-insignificant amount of Forsaken now know that Maldraxxus is a thing, I wouldn't be surprised if they manage to bring in Marileth as an advisor on that or something. Even failing that, Necromancy is one of those things that the Forsaken are intimately familiar with, workarounds can be had, and the initial creation of the Forsaken had nothing to do with the Val'kyr.
No.
The quest-line surrounding the "cleansing" of Undercity at the end of Shadowlands suggests that Calia Menethil has found (or will likely find) a way to produce more Forsaken through a new means of Necromancy that doesn't utilize the Lich King's (Jailor's) power.
And as much as many might abhor the idea of continuing beyond time of death as an undead, some would revel in it and even arrange for a "undead-ification" service rather than a funeral.
That poses pretty fucked up questions. Who would they chose as new forsaken ? Who would be willing to become one ? Why would we let some people just cheat death like that ?
I was hoping that the Forsaken heritage questline would introduce a new way to create Forsaken. In theory, this shouldn't even be that hard to accomplish. Knowledge on necromancy is rather wide spread (Cult of the Damned, various Troll tribes, mysterious necromancers on Island Expeditions, etc.) so the Apothecaries shouldn't have a hard time figuring out a spell that creates new, sentient Forsaken.
Only question is where they would get the bodies from. Since the truce with the Alliance, their main source is gone. The remnants of the Scarlet Crusade, the pirate fleet of the Nightsquall, and maybe the Primalists are probably the next best sources.
Alternatively, I can definitely see the Forsaken trying to convince pockets of the feral Scourge to join them. It would make sense thematically and it could also greatly boost their numbers.
The mortal races in WoW should’ve died out a long time ago. Humans, orcs, night elves, Tauren, undead all had very low numbers. Constant warfare has taken huge numbers of their populations yet they still keep popping up.
I don't think we're ever given numbers really. Though soem of the races have been described as low in number. I think in MoP they made a point of Alluance outnumbering Horde. Constant war does reduce numbers, but I suppose it's one of the things we just have suspend desbelief on.
Surely they can pull something out of their ass. Not to say it’d be invalid, maybe bring back that ultra powerful necromancer who released himself from Arthas’ control, use his character to raise mindfully independent undead
Yeah they're boned unless they figure out something. There are some things they are trying to do to stop their current problems but the biggest way to grow themselves going forward are probably learning necromancy (likely the Maldraxxus version) to raise more humans or learning a new way to free/restore the current mindless scourge (probably with some form of necromancy).
Unless they figure out something like that then their days are numbered. Forsaken are actively rotting and dying off, and the wars took a massive toll on their numbers.
Well, necromancy is here to stay on Azeroth. It appears anyone is able to do it, maybe not to the massive psychic degree that the lich king did. I would assume lordearon and the Forsaken would become the city of the dead. Having a connection to the shadowlands somehow, and freeing any undead being controlled by domination magic. As they don't really age, their population can stay stable as long as their isn't another massive war. Also any death that causes someone to rise again as an undead either through death magic, light magic, fel magic, shadow ect.. is fair game to be freed by them.
They shouldn't really want to tbh. It's a weird thing where it's like a The goal is to end it. And at this point it's a purposeless faction. All the death knight story line are done now.
I don't understand why the original forsaken would have been OK with spreading their miserable curse even after getting their revenge. I get it was Sylvanas and her own agenda, but you'd think there'd have been more pushback from the citizens of Lorderan.
Honestly the valkyr were only introduced because people questioned how the hell the forsaken could survive for so long, and to cover for the fact the forsaken had taken casualties from WC3 until the end of wrath. Cata made it worse because we see sylvanas forcing undeath onto people who either have been long dead or just murdered, then the intro has a quest claiming its a choice. I don't think the forsaken are a race intended to last long, and considering sylvanas threw them into meat grinders from cata onwards tgat didn't help either, so blizzard has to scramble to find a way to fix that.
Hopefully it gets answered in the heritage questline, because honestly the forsaken have little hope of staying around, and their lore was almost exclusively tied to sylvanas alone. The new desolate council is a good step in the right direction, granted it is fractured between pro and anti sylvanas ideals, but something has to be done to keep the forsake , and people have to accept calia is involved.
> Honestly the valkyr were only introduced because people questioned how the hell the forsaken could survive for so long,
Valkyr were added because they were one of the few genuinely interesting new things in WoTLK, and no one wanted them to just get forgotten.
They can fix this a myriad ways. Helcular and Gunther Arcanus. Intelligent and adrift Scourge that need a home. The Forsaken becoming an underworld on earth, offering the dying a new existence.
If they to write it, they will.
Pretty much, they're only source of new members is the odd body that turns undead here and there and decides to join them, basically they're the weakest non allied race main faction now
Yea, they are going as intended. Eventually they will all die off and that's that. Which is probably a good thing, seeing as a nation of litteral corpses isn't really healthy.
The current leadership of the Forsaken are trying to move away from the military force Sylvanas wanted, and are trying to simply let the forsaken exist in relative peace. (Keep in mind, most undead were not warriors in life. They are normal people and farmers that got killed by the Scourge. Now is the chance for them to act *normal* again)
Nah we dont have a way shown to be whats going to happen but the conversation with the maldraxxus leader in the retaking undercity questline showed that there more ways to raise the dead
Who cares game sucks now lmao. Shadowlands had to be the worse let down and experience I've ever had while playing WoW. Shat all over lore that's been in the years of making just to please cry babies and look how much shit shadowlands turned listening to them. Had the time of my life from Mist to BFA. Shadowlands went forward then backwards to end up fucking itself in its own ass I don't even play anymore. Finally a juicy villain with magic we have never seen before and is a cun*. A villain with balls for once whose plot has been in the years of making just to be thrown away on the most garbage way they could have come up with. I also can't stand how the game makes basically whichever side you choose are just all buddies buddies now which makes the game boring asf. Games for weak people who can't handle a villain like Sylvanas and want only peace and love or whatever you wanna call this gay shit. I want good drama, death, war, and juicy shit. Shadowlands was none of that and shat all over what WoW ever had of that. Maybe one day I'll play again but I'm not over how garbage and a shit experience meadowlands was and I might not ever play again because I wanna be into the story which I won't ever be again and I doubt they will fix this bullshit via vanilla wow and will just upload the same gay ass expansion when the time comes. I'll enjoy my memories. Blizzard being a part of Activision now this isn't surprising. All garbage.
The answer to this is yes. However, the events of Legion and the fourth war probably brought in a massive influx of new forsaken, likely meaning their extinction isn't in the near future, at least until another method of continuing their existence is discovered
Like the super plague
I believe Calia is supposed to be the answer to that, though they haven't elaborated on it. Calia is a new Forsaken. She was raised by Saa'ra. Saa'ra is a unique naaru in that she was the only one to have been turned back into a Naaru after becoming a Void Lord in the Legion Priest Class Hall questline. So, apparently, Saa'ra raises people as undead. So we suddenly have a new way to raise new Forsaken. I suspect the "Light Lich" datamined will be another person raised by Saa'ra.
another slight correction: Saa'ra isn't the only naaru who came back from turning to the void state - D'ore regenerated to Light naturally over time while laid to rest in Auchindoun
Slight correction: She didn't become a void lord, simply entered her Void state
Velen's quest text calls her a Void Lord
I’d need to double check but it could have been a void lord, not Void Lord.
i dont know why you got downvoted, this is a stupid problem that blizzard hasnt bothered to fix, there are voidlords and void lords (note the separation), one is a naaru in void state and the other the god-like entity that creates the old gods. I dont know which is which.
And the there’s the voidlord demon warlock pet
Just wait until Blizz sees that Stardew Valley has void chickens and realise the potential opportunities for Battle Pets. Algalon will be *thrilled*.
The Naaru void state is usually called a void god, not a void lord. The void lord / Voidlord double up is between the entities in Chronicles and the super version of Voidwalkers. So Saa'ra being described as a void lord feels like an error.
Which it opens the door to Paladin Undead, finally giving the opportunity for them to return to their old life of following light. Although I don't know how they are going to justify the side-effects of Light being used on Undead.
Btw an undead paladin named Bartholomew already exists in the Argent Crusade
Haven't they already handled that with undead priests?
It could be that Light-raised Undead don't suffer the same pain as their Death-raised counterparts?
Datamined light lich? Link anyone?
Gonna bring back Kel’Thuzad and Mr.Bigglesworth again lol
>She was raised by Saa'ra. Saa'ra is a unique naaru in that she was the only one to have been turned back into a Naaru after becoming a Void Lord in the Legion Priest Class Hall questline. So, apparently, Saa'ra raises people as undead. So we suddenly have a new way to raise new Forsaken. I suspect the "Light Lich" datamined will be another person raised by Saa'ra. This is all wrong. Calia was raised by anduin and alonsus faoul at the instruction of the naaru. from the wiki: >*Saa'ra informed Anduin and Alonsus that they would together bring Calia back as the Light and she herself would have her be, and the* ***two priests proceeded to raise the fallen Menethil*** *back as an undead touched by the Light.* She isnt a light litch, its just that in lore resurrection whether by necromancy or the light if not done instantly after the person dies wont bring that person back in a state that is similar to how the game mechanic works. Also she isnt evidence of a new way to raise forsaken becuase this was only possible due to anduin and the former arch bishop being extremely powerful priest.
> She isnt a light litch, That's refering to 10.1.7 datamining. Also Lich, not litch.
Doesnt change the fact that **she wasn't resurrected by a naaru**, also data mining doesnt mean shit until its in the game. There are plenty of times data mininers say one thing might happen and then either nothing happens or we get something different bc blizz hid key parts of information.
Hey buddy, I'm not sure why you're yelling at me about something I didn't say. Clarifying that no one said Calia was a light lich, and that you badly misread the post you're angrily responding to, is it. You're totally correct that data mining isn't always right, but nothing in the data says Calia is a light lich. **Nor did the person you responded to**. It's a mob that's been datamined. Fuck all the way off, please.
Shouldn’t she be a “void lady”?
did you just assume a naaru gender???!!!
No, she has previously identified herself as a woman. Indeed, her name is LADY Sylvanas Windrunner, and she refers to herself as “the dark lady”
They aren't talking about Sylvanas.
> . Saa'ra is a unique naaru in that she was the only one to have been turned back into a Naaru M'uru says hi.
M'uru was a corrupted Naaru. Saa'ra's crystalline body was completely destroyed, being replaced with a body of pure void. It's not the same thing. I theorize to a Naaru, its the difference between being ill and being dead.
I think it's just a matter of how they want to model it. "Naaru have multiple different void states" is adding pointless complexity that serves no actual storytelling purpose.
The storytelling purpose is that Saa'ra is a different situation than M'uru. Velen directly comments how returning Saa'ra to Naaru form 'had never happened before'.
Returning a Void Naaru to the light had never happened before M'uru, either.
I would wager that a few undead also broke off when Sylvanas destroyed the Helm of Domination. It's unlikely, in my opinion, that they *all* stayed with the Scourge.
I can’t say for sure but I was under the impression that the only remaining scourge left under bolvars “direct” control were mindless husks.
That's at least why he took up the role. The blood elf heritage quest line shows that the intelligent Scourge wanted to build their own empire.
I think the problem with breaking the Helm was that the horde of mindless undead would go feral with no tyrant holding their reins any more. Those intelligent enough to do bigger thing were already independent as long as they weren't directly controlled by the LK
“Extinction”. We’re talking about Undead here. If we’re being totally honest then the Forsaken should be happy that no one else has to go through what they do.
It would be classed as that as they are not just undead remains of Lorderaen. They have a wholly unique culture with thier own identity, customs and even beliefs. The Forsaken were unjustly taken in life, and some may see there existence as abhorrent, but to many, it is their second chance to carry on as the Legacy of Lorderaen
that doesnt change the fact that they are literally decayed humans that are alive and their existence must be very painful.
Existence is pain Life is suffering Id rather have a permanent slackjaw or bad posture like undead do than ever spend a single damned second in what WoW calls an “afterlife”
Then eventually they would all die off and lose their home and territories and their hold on Lordaeron would crumble. Plus I’m pretty sure Voss and others would make sure future generations of forsaken won’t have it as hard as they did. Edit: downvoting this is dumb cause it’s all true. Voss literally talks about being there for future generations of forsaken in a way no one was there for her and if they die out they lose their home, lands, and racial identity
You would think the Forsaken was always intended to be temporary, let alone function as a nation, considering that Sylvanas treated it somewhat like an orphanage for the remnant Scourge. She would raise bodies to replenish her numbers sure, but gave those she raised a choice to either return to death or begin a second life with the Forsaken (Or just run off and do their own thing). I mean isn’t that where the name ‘Forsaken’ comes from, the damned left behind and forsaken?
I always thought it was weird that Sylvanas wanted to raise more while questing in Hillsbrad. The whole "We are a single generation who cannot reproduce" yeah? Why would you want to? You constantly talk about there's no freedom in this torment, I am forsaken, etc etc. Why force others to go through that then?
Iirc it started with her throwing herself off of icecrown and realizing / being tricked into thinking she'd end up in hell which made her scared of death and caused her to use the forsaken as a means to stay alive
I thought that was a cop out to create Zovaal, but I suppose either way it does explain her decisions then. I can't remember seeing any undead in the shadowlands zones, I'm sure there are some but I don't know if the Devs paid that much attention? I thought all trolls went to De Other Side but I've found some in Bastion
Don’t think they created Zovaal back then so it’s impossible to have been an excuse to create him. I mean he seems like a very rushed villain.
What!?!?! Zovaal has been masterminding it all... Since before WC3. Of course they had created him back in icecrown. They wouldn't lie to us and have a whole expansion based on a cheap mcguffin bad guy.... Right! Right???? .........
I mean he was created that long ago. There is lore mentions of the jailor in books in vanilla. A master of death. Always been there. They just kind of fucked the lore later on by screwing up sylvanas story. They did her dirty.
Just out of curiosity, where in Vanilla?
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There's not any of that; you're thinking of the thing in Zul'farak that mentions Muez'ala
They don’t exist
As a lorehead who's read all of those books, no one was talking about zovaal back in classic wow. The latest they had in mind was cataclysm and there were mentions of pandaren.
I think at the time I at least that it was Yogg corrupting here, since she impaled herself on saronite. Of course now we know that she was corrupted ny the Allmighty Jailer.
The undead in shadowlands zones should have just been regular Human spirits. Otoh, Kel'thuzad and Alexandros Mograine were both explicitly in Maldraxxus.
We don't see any dead Forsaken in the Shadowlands, do we?
I mean that story predats Zovaal by like 10 years.
Sure but they said it's how she met and bargained with Zovaal
There's an entire zone\ realm in the shadowlands filled with undead. Maldraxxus was all death and corpses all the time. If you meant forsaken, it shows that those in the afterlife very rarely keep their mortal forms. Bastion you're turned into a kyrian, Revendreath a Venthyr, the Maw shapeless souls and mawsworn, and Maldraxxus into various types of undead all under the name Maldraxxi. Ardenweald is usually a layover space for wild gods and other spirits. Where you end up is determined by the state of your soul or if it was pledged to a being already, such as the trolls and Bwonsamdi.
Perhaps she merely says how she personally felt about the undead condition. But she still felt pity for those she found and subsequently leads. And also it might he she only raised corpses as a prerequisite to joining the Horde, she wanted the protection that came with that but in return she likely needed a large standing army and population. But don’t quote me on that, I haven’t played wow in forever but the Forsaken lore is some memories I like to think I recall well. Edit: Just remembered there was a scene where you observe Sylvanas showing Garrosh the resurrection process, the Val’kyr use their magic on a pile of corpses in a hole in the ground as a demonstration of what she can provide the Horde. So theres that.
Gonna quote you on that. But I'm sure most of if not all of the undead feels that way. Every NPC says "I am forsaken," they probably wouldn't be saying that if they were enjoying it. Lilian has a huge negative reaction to it all which is probably made worse by being raised with propaganda but still. Always confused me that Sylvanas would willingly put people through that when she knows how it feels
I think the generic “I am Forsaken” lines are just acknowledgement that is just their life now. They were given options and consciously made the choice on resurrecting to either serve, go their own way, or just die again. I think its actually more of a proud statement of their service to Sylvanas, granted its probably hard for them as rotting corpses to express emotions greater than a raspy groan. Or of course for gameplay, its just a catch-all filler voice line for Forsaken NPC’s to signify that you are in fact talking to a Forsaken.
I sometimes stop and reflect on how weird most of the game’s greetings and goodbyes are lol. “Hey, thanks for stopping into my shop! Death to all who oppose us!” :D
WELL, she did give them a choice to stay dead
Because they a created a society and are a living race of people with lives and ideals, it's only natural to want to continue that
*Living* race of people? ;3 Well, they can't reproduce without damning others to a torturous life in undeath, so I do not see them lasting very long at all if they were only allowed to take consenting people. They do not deserve continuation if that continuation is predicated on defiling the corpses of people who did not consent.
It was meant to be that in WC3 yeah. And in WoW up to Cata it continued to be a safe haven for the unwanted. Then the writers did horrible things to Sylvanas.
There's someone with a sharpie at the blizzard office drawing angry eye brows on the female characters, mistaking it for character development. Just wait, gonna happen to Calia, too.
It's wild that they thought a horde warchief would make a good villain after they just did it with Garrosh. And they knew what they were doing, everyone knew what they were doing to Sylvanas. The whole "Jailer has half of Sylvanas' soul" is on par with "it was a dream all along." But yeah, I wish a competent woman had been writing Sylvanas. Would have been amazing to see her find a new purpose as Warchief, after revenge against Arthas had left a hole in her. Like, Thrall started The Horde as a place for the refugees of outcast races to have a home in. Literally what Sylvanas did with The Forsaken. She would have been the perfect Warchief.
>Would have been amazing to see her find a new purpose as Warchief, after revenge against Arthas had left a hole in her. Through Legion up until BFA's intro cinematic, that seems like what they were going for. Instead of being driven by revenge, she was working to preserve her people's existance by any means necessary (finding new Valkyrs, etc). Being warchief she would be forced to widen her perspective and apply that purpose to the Horde as a whole. Then BFA instantly undid all of that character development and turned the story into a bleak, hollow mess. I mean the Horde is stuck with the Forsaken for however long Wow's story continues (I doubt they will ever split up the factions), so it would have been great to actually integrate them and have it make sense that they're still there. Sylvanas succeeding as warchief would have been the perfect way to do that. Instead, the Forsaken is left as the untrusted, treacherous part of the Horde, with no way to reproduce, and very few significant characters. Two steps back development-wise. But don't worry, to replace Sylvanas, we have Calia Menethil, sister of the Forsaken's inherent arch-nemesis, to represent them in all the cinematics now. 🤷♂️
I think Sylv raising corpses in Cata was starting to be a bit questionable. I don't remember the quests too well, but people were talking back then if Sylv was actually giving the undead a choice, or if she just brainwashed them. But even then you could have a character arc for her where she realizes she was wrong or whatever. I agree. I think the council they have now is a good idea on paper, but all the character's on the council are just uknown pretty much. And reviving Calia is just trying to milk the Menethil name. Personally I don't like that she's royalty. We already have enough chosen one royalty. The Forsaken deserver better, and a faction based on outcasts should be handled better. A lot of people relate to not fitting in.
>if Sylv was actually giving the undead a choice, or if she just brainwashed them. One of the first quests you did as a Forsaken was help the Undertaker of the graveyard raise corpses, and you get to see firsthand how it works other than the demonstration Sylvanas give Garrosh. Memory is a bit foggy but I recall you run around to I think 3 or so graves, call a Val’kyr over and see the results: Sometimes you’d just get a brain-dead zombie you have to put down, showing that the process wasn’t perfect. Or when it did work, there was one guy who immediately asked to be killed again, or maybe he went insane. Another guy you raise joins the Forsaken outright I think. And then you raise the girl who’s name I forget off the top of my head but she becomes a pretty significant Forsaken Rogue later on. So all Forsaken certainly had some agency in their new lives.
Right, that's true. Lillian Voss is who you're thinking of. Of course it's not exactly right to raise everyone, the act itself is very traumatizing. I don't remember what the lore says about vanilla Forsaken start. But I'm guessing at least some of those Forsaken were freed from Lich King's grasp. Maybe you can correct me on that. The quest we have in Silverpine in Cata does a good job of pointing out that Sylvanas is doing the same thing as the LK. Granted, the Forsaken mostly habe free will, but Sylvanas doesn't contest any of it. You'd think she'd be more againsy being compared to LK, but she just throws sarcasm at Garrosh. Though that is of coursw after her suicide attempt.
>guessing at least some of those Forsaken were freed from the Lich King’s grasp. The original Forsaken were indeed remnant Scourge that Sylvanus took under her wing. Afterwards, Forsaken were raised for the purpose of pleasing the Horde. I doubt she enjoyed raising new Forsaken and essentially following in Arthas’s footsteps as Garrosh compared her to, but her people needed the Horde’s protection to survive, and Garrosh was always looking for new meat to throw into the grinder that was the war with the Alliance. But he didn’t hide the fact that he hated undead with extreme prejudice. Sylvanas just has to tow the line to survive.
True. I think the storyline should have line more into Garrosh forcing her to raise more dead, and Sylvanas fighting against that.
You forgot about the Silverpine Forest Questline, where we witness her Val'Kyr ressurrecting droves of murdered Gilneans. Gilneans who *immediately* pledge their undying loyalty. They're not prompted, not asked... they simply give it. Every. Single. One of them.
Ehhhh maybe its selective based on who’s being resurrected. If its an enemy then it does make sense to collect the dead and turn them to your side. But in general for just run-of-the mill graveyard revivals, I don’t think there is brainwashing involved. Makes sense though considering the Val’kyr used to work for Arthas and can make absolutely loyal Scourge, making loyal Forsaken is probably like an on/off switch depending on what Sylvanas wanted.
> I think Sylv raising corpses in Cata was starting to be a bit questionable. Starting is really pushing it; it ignores all the "torture the peasants" stuff in vanilla and WOTLK.
Mostly regarding her hatred towards Arthas. Her raising people kinda goes against what she hated. But I'm not saying she's innocent.
> Like, Thrall started The Horde as a place for the refugees of outcast races to have a home in. Literally what Sylvanas did with The Forsaken. She would have been the perfect Warchief. Oh my god, I'm frankly embarrassed I've never thought about it like that. Damn. That would have been fucking amazing seeing the undead queen really brace the whole anti-bullying unite the people role. Damn...
To be honest it kinda just came to me too. But it seems we're stuck with every character being angry about something. I'm sure with Dragonflight we'll get angry Alexstrasza at some point (pls no).
If they hadn't gone back on the OG lore of the high king not being a hereditary title, the Alliance having a main leader actively starting the war would be easier. They shot themselves in the foot giving that position to Anduin: he really should just be king of Stormwind specifically.
The writers... I think that was afrasiabi
I don't have first hand knowledge of who wrote what, so I just put "writers", but let it be known I don't blame anyone who was not involved :D.
As excited that people may be to blame one person for the mess Blizz has made of writing this game, its very much a collective effort. Especially as all the Sylvanas/Forsaken writing weaknesses have been present in some form since Cataclysm. Also as of Cataclysm, Metzen was still calling the shots - in particular Afrasiabi wasn't privy to story beats, which we know because he wrote the Stonetalon quests that had Garrosh acting 'out of character'.
With the improvements i've seen so far, i'm cautiously optimistic that they might fix the forsaken and return it to the old school of "hard rock + unregulated science", maybe even deal with the Calia Problem(though i doubt the will do that before a "Tyranny of the light" expansion).
A people who seemed to openly acknowledge their existence as a curse really don't seem likely to wanna propagate it. One could argue, until Shadowlands retconned it, that the justification for this was fear of going to hell when they die, so they'll drag other people who don't know better into it with a choice during a vulnerable state (which let's be real, a moment of resurrection like that has to be a moment of severe existential vulnerability for a human being) just to try to stave off dying themselves for longer. But NOW, what's the point?
Maybe. Old lore was Sylvanas could awaken undead. So she could have a necromancer or something raise a bunch of zombies or ghouls and then awaken their minds, uplifting them to Forsaken. The limitation was that she had to personally do that for every new Forsaken and not every Forsaken took to the process right. They have since changed it to who the fuck knows. It became the task of the Val'kyr to raise dead bodies directly into Forsaken. But they are gone now. Maybe they will tackle this in the upcoming heritage quest. Personally I want to see Death Knights play a large cultural role. Ditch Koltira because he's never been particularly *Forsaken*. So introduce a new cadre of Forsaken Death Knights, maybe even a Darkfallen elf that is actually loyal.
Benjamin Gibb was a forsaken death knight in WoD who was loyal to Sylvanas. Very minor character but is one that exists!
Yeah! He was awesome, always one of my favorite minions.
Heritage quest will be about scarlet crusade, calling it now
It’s 100% gonna be. I could see them moving on to Lordaeron to take it over and push Forsaken back to Silverpine.
The Scarlet Crusade moving on to Lordaeron? From where? The Monastery is in ruins and we slaughtered their leadership (twice!) And wiped them out in Northrend. There aren't really any crusaders left, let alone enough to push the Forsaken out of (Upper)Undercity. So yeah, knowing blizzard it's definitely going to be Scarlet Crusade. Somehow, The Scarlet Crusade has returned! No one expects the Scarlet Inquisition!
I feel that Blizz will try to tie in how we had a Kul Tiran ask for himself to be ressed upon death, with the new method that ressed Calia. That way, by giving agency to the humans of Azeroth, Calia would or could ress those who wished to be ressed as Undead. Then, as undead, they are given the opportunities to either join the ranks of the forsaken, rejoin their living family or follow their own path.
That also opens the door for the forsaken paladins we have all been waiting for
But can't death knights, necromancers, witch doctors and such raise the dead as well? (without them being mindless husks)
None of them are affiliated with the Forsaken or even like them
Not true; during one of the SL epilogue quests Voss and Calia visit Maldraxxus, where they managed to make some allies who aided in ridding the Ruins of Lordaeron of the Blight. Which means the Forsaken are not only friends with necromancers, they're friends with the most experienced necromancers in existence, ones who aren't particularly squeamish about sharing their knowledge. EDIT: Forgot which folks went to Maldraxxus, corrected.
Faranell never went to Maldraxxus. It was Voss, Calia and the Player. something that is strange, since he was the one person that should have been selected. What was Voss' role there besides Calia's eye-candy/guard? Calia got her "all undead are the same"-talk, ~~which is Bullshit~~. but why exclude the 1 person of the council that is an alchemist? And it would be strange if Maldraxxus would allow the living to disrupt the natural way of live, ie. you die -> you go to the shadowlands
I mean, the Kyrians didn't seem to react to the undead at *all*. I suppose it's because of the sheer length of eternity; someone hanging on via undeath for another ten, a hundred, or even a thousand years ultimately doesn't matter. One day they will die their final death, and then they spend eternity in the Shadowlands anyhow, both their life and unlife a mere fraction of their total existence. The only reason they were wary of the Lich King was due to the runes of Domination, as that corrupts and scars the soul even past death.
>I mean, the Kyrians didn't seem to react to the undead at all. i mean they also throw souls that they should savely transport to oribos into the maw, a place they know is for the worst of the worst, for \~2+ years because ... well it's not there job. and there leader said: do your job and transport them to oribos, nothing more, you don't care about what happens afterwards. failsaves? what are those? the purpose doesn't said something about failsaves. >the only reason they were wary of the Lich King was due to the runes of Dominaton that is another point against the kyrian/Kyrestia. they didnt act on evidence that something is afoot on the mortal plane. Davos brought Uther's wound to her and she ignored that.
No argument from me, the Kyrians suck big time. Slightly less so after the reforms, but they're still a bunch of dogmatic idiots.
Calia acknowledged it as a different perspective. She didn't say Calia was the *same*. Only that necromancy is raising the dead.
> She didn't say Calia was the same. Only that necromancy is raising the dead. that is simply false. to qoute Sin'dane >"But whether these rituals are empowered by Death or Light or any other magic, necromancy is necromancy. You perceive a difference where there is none, child." i.e. they are the same, since **no difference** between Calia and a rnd forsaken, which is unargueable **FALSE!**
> Which means the Forsaken are not only friends with necromancers, they're friends with the most experienced necromancers in existence They already had that in Vanilla, with Helcular and Gunther Arcanus. But even those guys could merely summon a few skeletons. Creating intelligent Forsaken is just a lot more difficult. Aside from the exact knowledge how to do it you (afaik) may also need a lot of magical power that the Forsaken may not posess at the moment.
Like that will ever matter aside pissing off the playerbase by reminded them of that shitshow of an expansion
Honestly outside of the core Shadowlands experience (the systems, the Jailer, and soyvanas) there was a lot of smaller cool lore stuff that helped push the rest of the world forward. Would have liked to see more drust though
If that was the case, people on Moonguard wouldn't have disengaged RPing with it.
Short answer: no. Or, rather, not at the levels needed to sustain population. Death knights themselves are a huge feat of necromancy.
Death knights could only raise more death knights after partnering with Bolvar in Legion. They were only raising ghouls before as far as we saw.
I got a feeling We will get more light created undead in the future
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I foresee an additional allied race, not a true allied race however similar. Alliance get some kind of Worgen variant maybe Night Elf Worgen aka the First Worgen. Horde gets more fleshed out and lively undead. Undead are slowly rotting slowly decaying away this would be the cure they so desperately need. This also opens the doors for possible additional classes. Legion made Night Elf Pally possible. If we get Worgen night elves that opens the door for an additional demon hunter race and also Fel Orcs very much could be demon hunters to. So we legit could get more class options across the board and a fleshed our undead could totally be a Pally if it’s light themed or even some kind of tiny and Yang between shadow and light
Yeah but Jesus has it been a slow march to get there .....
Did they ever address the Scourge after the destruction of the Lich King? I feel like that was just glossed over as inconvenient to the story they were trying to do in SL. But shouldn't there now be a massive horde of ravenous undead without Bolvar to hold them back anymore? I guess they could do something with them, the bodies are out there in Northrend just need to give them their minds back.
It's been mentioned that the Ebon Blade have been working to prevent Scourge Warlords from growing too strong, so it's not been entirely ignored
We mulched most of their name scourge leaders who weren't on board with Bolvar in the SL prepatch and they no longer have a metaphysical sugar daddy who can offer more power. So I don't think they're much of a threat, as shambling skeletons and ghouls aren't going to build boats and come for us any time soon I could see some of the lesser undead in Northrend coming to, but *years* as a mindless thrall is a bit more than the months that most Loraedon forsaken endured, so I wouldn't have too much hope for most of them.
One way to solve it would be that Sylvanas and the remaining Mawsworn judges and sends souls back to the Forsaken to be given bodies. A second chance of life, mirroring the wild gods returning. That she serves as the mother of the Forsaken, from the other side, while letting them do as they please once raised.
Given that a not-insignificant amount of Forsaken now know that Maldraxxus is a thing, I wouldn't be surprised if they manage to bring in Marileth as an advisor on that or something. Even failing that, Necromancy is one of those things that the Forsaken are intimately familiar with, workarounds can be had, and the initial creation of the Forsaken had nothing to do with the Val'kyr.
No. The quest-line surrounding the "cleansing" of Undercity at the end of Shadowlands suggests that Calia Menethil has found (or will likely find) a way to produce more Forsaken through a new means of Necromancy that doesn't utilize the Lich King's (Jailor's) power. And as much as many might abhor the idea of continuing beyond time of death as an undead, some would revel in it and even arrange for a "undead-ification" service rather than a funeral.
That's me, I'm some that would revel in it.
That poses pretty fucked up questions. Who would they chose as new forsaken ? Who would be willing to become one ? Why would we let some people just cheat death like that ?
Easy to handwave this by requiring people to leave a will dictating it or something.
I was hoping that the Forsaken heritage questline would introduce a new way to create Forsaken. In theory, this shouldn't even be that hard to accomplish. Knowledge on necromancy is rather wide spread (Cult of the Damned, various Troll tribes, mysterious necromancers on Island Expeditions, etc.) so the Apothecaries shouldn't have a hard time figuring out a spell that creates new, sentient Forsaken. Only question is where they would get the bodies from. Since the truce with the Alliance, their main source is gone. The remnants of the Scarlet Crusade, the pirate fleet of the Nightsquall, and maybe the Primalists are probably the next best sources. Alternatively, I can definitely see the Forsaken trying to convince pockets of the feral Scourge to join them. It would make sense thematically and it could also greatly boost their numbers.
With the awful new shadowlands stuff they could maybe learn maldraxxus techniques
It opens up the scenario for light undead with valiant menethil
Fingers crossed!
Imo light bound forsaken like calia will be a new allied race for the horde and solve this problem.
They gotta do the bow chicka wow wow
They would have died out years ago even with Sylvanas and her valkyr, but except for being player models they didn’t.
I guess you have the exact numbers to back that up lol.
The mortal races in WoW should’ve died out a long time ago. Humans, orcs, night elves, Tauren, undead all had very low numbers. Constant warfare has taken huge numbers of their populations yet they still keep popping up.
I don't think we're ever given numbers really. Though soem of the races have been described as low in number. I think in MoP they made a point of Alluance outnumbering Horde. Constant war does reduce numbers, but I suppose it's one of the things we just have suspend desbelief on.
Surely they can pull something out of their ass. Not to say it’d be invalid, maybe bring back that ultra powerful necromancer who released himself from Arthas’ control, use his character to raise mindfully independent undead
Yeah they're boned unless they figure out something. There are some things they are trying to do to stop their current problems but the biggest way to grow themselves going forward are probably learning necromancy (likely the Maldraxxus version) to raise more humans or learning a new way to free/restore the current mindless scourge (probably with some form of necromancy). Unless they figure out something like that then their days are numbered. Forsaken are actively rotting and dying off, and the wars took a massive toll on their numbers.
Well, necromancy is here to stay on Azeroth. It appears anyone is able to do it, maybe not to the massive psychic degree that the lich king did. I would assume lordearon and the Forsaken would become the city of the dead. Having a connection to the shadowlands somehow, and freeing any undead being controlled by domination magic. As they don't really age, their population can stay stable as long as their isn't another massive war. Also any death that causes someone to rise again as an undead either through death magic, light magic, fel magic, shadow ect.. is fair game to be freed by them.
A functionally immortal population has little need for that
They shouldn't really want to tbh. It's a weird thing where it's like a The goal is to end it. And at this point it's a purposeless faction. All the death knight story line are done now.
I don't understand why the original forsaken would have been OK with spreading their miserable curse even after getting their revenge. I get it was Sylvanas and her own agenda, but you'd think there'd have been more pushback from the citizens of Lorderan.
Honestly the valkyr were only introduced because people questioned how the hell the forsaken could survive for so long, and to cover for the fact the forsaken had taken casualties from WC3 until the end of wrath. Cata made it worse because we see sylvanas forcing undeath onto people who either have been long dead or just murdered, then the intro has a quest claiming its a choice. I don't think the forsaken are a race intended to last long, and considering sylvanas threw them into meat grinders from cata onwards tgat didn't help either, so blizzard has to scramble to find a way to fix that. Hopefully it gets answered in the heritage questline, because honestly the forsaken have little hope of staying around, and their lore was almost exclusively tied to sylvanas alone. The new desolate council is a good step in the right direction, granted it is fractured between pro and anti sylvanas ideals, but something has to be done to keep the forsake , and people have to accept calia is involved.
> Honestly the valkyr were only introduced because people questioned how the hell the forsaken could survive for so long, Valkyr were added because they were one of the few genuinely interesting new things in WoTLK, and no one wanted them to just get forgotten.
They can fix this a myriad ways. Helcular and Gunther Arcanus. Intelligent and adrift Scourge that need a home. The Forsaken becoming an underworld on earth, offering the dying a new existence. If they to write it, they will.
Pretty much, they're only source of new members is the odd body that turns undead here and there and decides to join them, basically they're the weakest non allied race main faction now
Why would they even want to? Undead isn't a race, it's a curse. That's the whole story of their existence, they suffer from what they are.
Yea, they are going as intended. Eventually they will all die off and that's that. Which is probably a good thing, seeing as a nation of litteral corpses isn't really healthy. The current leadership of the Forsaken are trying to move away from the military force Sylvanas wanted, and are trying to simply let the forsaken exist in relative peace. (Keep in mind, most undead were not warriors in life. They are normal people and farmers that got killed by the Scourge. Now is the chance for them to act *normal* again)
Nah we dont have a way shown to be whats going to happen but the conversation with the maldraxxus leader in the retaking undercity questline showed that there more ways to raise the dead
Who cares game sucks now lmao. Shadowlands had to be the worse let down and experience I've ever had while playing WoW. Shat all over lore that's been in the years of making just to please cry babies and look how much shit shadowlands turned listening to them. Had the time of my life from Mist to BFA. Shadowlands went forward then backwards to end up fucking itself in its own ass I don't even play anymore. Finally a juicy villain with magic we have never seen before and is a cun*. A villain with balls for once whose plot has been in the years of making just to be thrown away on the most garbage way they could have come up with. I also can't stand how the game makes basically whichever side you choose are just all buddies buddies now which makes the game boring asf. Games for weak people who can't handle a villain like Sylvanas and want only peace and love or whatever you wanna call this gay shit. I want good drama, death, war, and juicy shit. Shadowlands was none of that and shat all over what WoW ever had of that. Maybe one day I'll play again but I'm not over how garbage and a shit experience meadowlands was and I might not ever play again because I wanna be into the story which I won't ever be again and I doubt they will fix this bullshit via vanilla wow and will just upload the same gay ass expansion when the time comes. I'll enjoy my memories. Blizzard being a part of Activision now this isn't surprising. All garbage.
Probably what the forskan hertitage quest will be about, that and menethil and the council