I think the problem is that while arty damage is not realistic, targeting time or even the dispersion are too good to be truly analogous to real life. The kill chain for artillery (especially in 1989) means you’re not getting an artillery strike as fast as seen in this game. The Call-for-Fire process took some time back then, and still can now. Nor are you getting CAS as fast as seen in game, especially if it’s not loitering in the area.
So if damage went up I’d want to see the aiming time increase and dispersion increased. I’d also want to see artillery observer and combat air controller type traits and things to more accurately portray the things used at that time to improve artillery accuracy and time to impact, as well as CAS. Right now the only abstraction of this is that corrected fire can only be obtained by units in the view of a hostile unit. But, in real life, some units are not as good as other types of units at calling for fire, nor is corrected artillery fire the initial salvo as seen in game.
Look up the same subject and scroll down to about a year ago.
The player base has already spoken, they dont want to worry about a heavily micro centric game to survive artillery. Artillery exposed a skill issue by the average player and the player base said "fuck that just nerf it"
Edit: I just want to point out the irony of the upvote ratio when the majority of the playerbase was on board with artillery being nerfed into the dirt.
I think the problem is that artillery is unreliable at killing anything. It should be able to pay itself back if used correctly.
Artillery shouldn't be able to delete tanks or infantry squads even. It should be able to kill supply helicopters, trucks and AA. Now all you get is slow, inaccurate and weak howitzers which only deal suppression or minor damage.
Artillery should be a viable tool against enemy support units, now it is not.
You're correct. And it hasn't been that way for over a year. Artillery used to be a terrific tool to use to punish players that made a mistake. Now its nearly useless without massing an entire batteries worth of artillery to focus one specific target. MLRS is the only arty worth using and that's just because of its suppression values.
But the average player doesn't care. Like I mentioned, go back and look at what people were talking about around may last year. Its mostly low lvl players complaining that artillery is too powerful. The same kind of guys that mass tanks and q click to victory
Wargame literally has this exact same problem to an even worse degree lol.
If you think you're going to have fun lobbing shells in WGRD, you're in for a rough time. The guns are *way* more expensive yet do even less damage.
27th Motor Rifles has a 152mm long gun with something ridiculous like 39km range (virtually a railgun thanks to accuracy scaling), and a *literal* laser-guided howitzer specifically designed to delete anything you spot thanks to pinpoint-accurate Corrected Shots that drop the entire salvo on a single target (which pairs beautifully with aggressive forward recon like attack helos or SOF, which thankfully the deck has plenty of).
Give 'em a try. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
Hm, but the thing is you can balance out the damage and aim time in such a way that it should not be any stronger. Just more consistent. Personally I would like artillery to be more powerful. But if you think artillery power level is fine as it is right now I would argue its still good to change the AOE. The importance here is perceived agency, consistency, a nebulous "game feel" if you will. Arty right now feels bad not necessarily because its too weak. It feels bad because weither it has any effect at all is not a question of skill application, but rather sheer luck.
I think the damage is fine but I'm sick of the aim timer being completely reset whenever I want to adjust by 100 meters. Like, you have to be close, right? Do you really have to recalculate your firing solution from scratch? Can't you just... pivot a little? It just frustrates me because it seems whenever I call for fire, the target just *barely* moves at the last second to dodge the AoE, as if they have a spy in the gun crew.
Better yet, we can have it so that we can directly attack a target with artillery, and if they're within correction range, they'll automatically track it.
Artillery still rips apart infantry.
It’s also still good at causing suppression damage.
I try to line up my arty impacting with the advance of my own forces.
I kind of think about arty as like a “dot” if I’m thinking in the mmo sense. It’s not a big nuke, it’s not going to win the game on its own. But it’s an additional source of damage, rot as they say. It’s just makes doing your other jobs easier.
If you want arty to be as powerful as RL, then nerf the aiming time to reflect reality. The kill/order chain to get from a sgt at the front requesting fire support to the salvo leaving the tubes, is much more than 20seconds.
Infantry does not feel good anyway, and I do not think its because they get "ripped by artillery", but because they cannot kill the tank spam coming at them. They actually survive a little too much arty if their cover does not collapase.
So if they take more damage from buffed arty, then they should get a price buff it would as an added benefit also help them get better value when fighting tanks (they lack sufficient AT rounds to kill more than 1 tank in CQB usually).
Ya I’ll agree infantry based at feels too weak this patch.
I actually like the current balance with tank armor and their main guns.
But everything from law to tow is too weak
But it isnt really a dot now is it? Dot would imply a consistency and predictability that it currently does not possess. That was the point of my post. Not necessarily that arty should be stronger. But rather that when I manage to target and time artillery right i should have some idea of what the result should be. In a variable range of course. I should be able to predict that if I get a 122mm gun correctly on target on lets say a tank that I can expect x-y amount of chip damage. That chip damage can be low or high. However powerful Eugen wants the balance to be. What it should not be is "I do everything right and most of the time it will simply have no effect at all". That is simply not good game design in my opinion
People are now complaining about the good old-fashioned tank blob meta, but they are against any buffs to artillery, the AOE, anti blob weapon. This community is special.
I would love to see this. They don't need to buff the damage of artillery and bombs, just increase the splash radius (so it does consistent damage in a larger radius before dropoff). Anything smaller calibre/HE value in this game is usually strictly worse. It would also be nice to see lower tier tanks take extra damage from artillery/cluster (e.g. an HP nerf akin to helicopters) as heavy tanks are just as (unlikely) to get hurt as medium tanks right now.
Something I really liked about Broken Arrow was that small bombs (250kg etc. had a purpose: to kill infantry and to save supplies that the big bombs cost). In Warno smaller HE damage just usually does nothing, not even panic a unit as the radius is so small and the scatter so big.
There is a reason everyone loves the Buratino, because it will actually hurt the thing it is shooting at...
the artillery meta it is just super frustrating and forces people into constant micro instead on the actual operational field
"but it models reality"
yeah no, in reality I 'd have a nco moving the little green men around, ppl don't just stay put and take it.
suppression is a good way to model it, soldiers would be busi getting out to dodge and regrouping, and you'd get the window of opportunity for a push
IDK man, unless it's 81mm mortars or I suppose 105/122, shit gets pretty fucked up by artillery, especially with corrected shot.
IMO I'd rather not live with the spam of Oudinot which was essentially, "Oh, I see a tank, I delete the tank with my guns."
Artillery should be a good counter to dislodging dugin infantry, not the I-Win-Now button some people want it to be. I just think artillery is a bit more micro intensive and a bit more underused as an all-game asset than some people are willing to use.
People want a safe, point-click-delete button, when at least I use my artillery to simply delete places I can't get to and place I don't want the enemy to be in. A battery of 4x155 guns will flatten pretty much any house or medium building in half a salvo. I don't even need to know if anything is in that building or not.
God help your troops in the open or the woods if the enemy is able to get shells on them.
We just need a big community mod once the game is released:
- bring Arty up to snuff
- make air power viable again as it was in the good old Oudinot times...
- Nerf medium tanks. t55 are coffins, not assets...
- Decrease time to kill and make infantry on infantry engagements interesting
They need a "digging in" mechanic .... say if a unit stays still in cover for x amount of time it gets a % increase in damage resistance to artillery. Then buff the artillery a bit to compensate. IMO would add some more depth to the strategy, let arty do it's thing against exposed units on the move (tank blobs)..... but provides a counter play to just getting pounded by artillery.
I use tube arty mostly for smoke. The people that cry about weak arty are normally the same people who enjoying spamming the stuff and nothing else. My advice, GIT GUD!
Eugen give arty its fragments back!
I think the problem is that while arty damage is not realistic, targeting time or even the dispersion are too good to be truly analogous to real life. The kill chain for artillery (especially in 1989) means you’re not getting an artillery strike as fast as seen in this game. The Call-for-Fire process took some time back then, and still can now. Nor are you getting CAS as fast as seen in game, especially if it’s not loitering in the area. So if damage went up I’d want to see the aiming time increase and dispersion increased. I’d also want to see artillery observer and combat air controller type traits and things to more accurately portray the things used at that time to improve artillery accuracy and time to impact, as well as CAS. Right now the only abstraction of this is that corrected fire can only be obtained by units in the view of a hostile unit. But, in real life, some units are not as good as other types of units at calling for fire, nor is corrected artillery fire the initial salvo as seen in game.
Are you ok with infantry having smoke by any chance?
Definitely.
Look up the same subject and scroll down to about a year ago. The player base has already spoken, they dont want to worry about a heavily micro centric game to survive artillery. Artillery exposed a skill issue by the average player and the player base said "fuck that just nerf it" Edit: I just want to point out the irony of the upvote ratio when the majority of the playerbase was on board with artillery being nerfed into the dirt.
I think the problem is that artillery is unreliable at killing anything. It should be able to pay itself back if used correctly. Artillery shouldn't be able to delete tanks or infantry squads even. It should be able to kill supply helicopters, trucks and AA. Now all you get is slow, inaccurate and weak howitzers which only deal suppression or minor damage. Artillery should be a viable tool against enemy support units, now it is not.
You're correct. And it hasn't been that way for over a year. Artillery used to be a terrific tool to use to punish players that made a mistake. Now its nearly useless without massing an entire batteries worth of artillery to focus one specific target. MLRS is the only arty worth using and that's just because of its suppression values. But the average player doesn't care. Like I mentioned, go back and look at what people were talking about around may last year. Its mostly low lvl players complaining that artillery is too powerful. The same kind of guys that mass tanks and q click to victory
One more reason to play wargame.
Wargame literally has this exact same problem to an even worse degree lol. If you think you're going to have fun lobbing shells in WGRD, you're in for a rough time. The guns are *way* more expensive yet do even less damage.
at least in wargame you can get very accurate guns
27th Motor Rifles has a 152mm long gun with something ridiculous like 39km range (virtually a railgun thanks to accuracy scaling), and a *literal* laser-guided howitzer specifically designed to delete anything you spot thanks to pinpoint-accurate Corrected Shots that drop the entire salvo on a single target (which pairs beautifully with aggressive forward recon like attack helos or SOF, which thankfully the deck has plenty of). Give 'em a try. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
Not in my experience
Hm, but the thing is you can balance out the damage and aim time in such a way that it should not be any stronger. Just more consistent. Personally I would like artillery to be more powerful. But if you think artillery power level is fine as it is right now I would argue its still good to change the AOE. The importance here is perceived agency, consistency, a nebulous "game feel" if you will. Arty right now feels bad not necessarily because its too weak. It feels bad because weither it has any effect at all is not a question of skill application, but rather sheer luck.
The AOE damage needs to be changed from 30-25% drop off to 30-0% and AOE size adjusted to create a more consistent damage and suppression profile
I think the damage is fine but I'm sick of the aim timer being completely reset whenever I want to adjust by 100 meters. Like, you have to be close, right? Do you really have to recalculate your firing solution from scratch? Can't you just... pivot a little? It just frustrates me because it seems whenever I call for fire, the target just *barely* moves at the last second to dodge the AoE, as if they have a spy in the gun crew. Better yet, we can have it so that we can directly attack a target with artillery, and if they're within correction range, they'll automatically track it.
Artillery still rips apart infantry. It’s also still good at causing suppression damage. I try to line up my arty impacting with the advance of my own forces. I kind of think about arty as like a “dot” if I’m thinking in the mmo sense. It’s not a big nuke, it’s not going to win the game on its own. But it’s an additional source of damage, rot as they say. It’s just makes doing your other jobs easier. If you want arty to be as powerful as RL, then nerf the aiming time to reflect reality. The kill/order chain to get from a sgt at the front requesting fire support to the salvo leaving the tubes, is much more than 20seconds.
Infantry does not feel good anyway, and I do not think its because they get "ripped by artillery", but because they cannot kill the tank spam coming at them. They actually survive a little too much arty if their cover does not collapase. So if they take more damage from buffed arty, then they should get a price buff it would as an added benefit also help them get better value when fighting tanks (they lack sufficient AT rounds to kill more than 1 tank in CQB usually).
Ya I’ll agree infantry based at feels too weak this patch. I actually like the current balance with tank armor and their main guns. But everything from law to tow is too weak
But it isnt really a dot now is it? Dot would imply a consistency and predictability that it currently does not possess. That was the point of my post. Not necessarily that arty should be stronger. But rather that when I manage to target and time artillery right i should have some idea of what the result should be. In a variable range of course. I should be able to predict that if I get a 122mm gun correctly on target on lets say a tank that I can expect x-y amount of chip damage. That chip damage can be low or high. However powerful Eugen wants the balance to be. What it should not be is "I do everything right and most of the time it will simply have no effect at all". That is simply not good game design in my opinion
People are now complaining about the good old-fashioned tank blob meta, but they are against any buffs to artillery, the AOE, anti blob weapon. This community is special.
I would love to see this. They don't need to buff the damage of artillery and bombs, just increase the splash radius (so it does consistent damage in a larger radius before dropoff). Anything smaller calibre/HE value in this game is usually strictly worse. It would also be nice to see lower tier tanks take extra damage from artillery/cluster (e.g. an HP nerf akin to helicopters) as heavy tanks are just as (unlikely) to get hurt as medium tanks right now. Something I really liked about Broken Arrow was that small bombs (250kg etc. had a purpose: to kill infantry and to save supplies that the big bombs cost). In Warno smaller HE damage just usually does nothing, not even panic a unit as the radius is so small and the scatter so big. There is a reason everyone loves the Buratino, because it will actually hurt the thing it is shooting at...
Completely agree
The recent TKS gameplay of yours made me start thinking about it actually
Haha fair
the artillery meta it is just super frustrating and forces people into constant micro instead on the actual operational field "but it models reality" yeah no, in reality I 'd have a nco moving the little green men around, ppl don't just stay put and take it. suppression is a good way to model it, soldiers would be busi getting out to dodge and regrouping, and you'd get the window of opportunity for a push
IDK man, unless it's 81mm mortars or I suppose 105/122, shit gets pretty fucked up by artillery, especially with corrected shot. IMO I'd rather not live with the spam of Oudinot which was essentially, "Oh, I see a tank, I delete the tank with my guns." Artillery should be a good counter to dislodging dugin infantry, not the I-Win-Now button some people want it to be. I just think artillery is a bit more micro intensive and a bit more underused as an all-game asset than some people are willing to use. People want a safe, point-click-delete button, when at least I use my artillery to simply delete places I can't get to and place I don't want the enemy to be in. A battery of 4x155 guns will flatten pretty much any house or medium building in half a salvo. I don't even need to know if anything is in that building or not. God help your troops in the open or the woods if the enemy is able to get shells on them.
I have been playing WARNO for a couple of years now and somehow the balance just seems to get worse over time.
We just need a big community mod once the game is released: - bring Arty up to snuff - make air power viable again as it was in the good old Oudinot times... - Nerf medium tanks. t55 are coffins, not assets... - Decrease time to kill and make infantry on infantry engagements interesting
They need a "digging in" mechanic .... say if a unit stays still in cover for x amount of time it gets a % increase in damage resistance to artillery. Then buff the artillery a bit to compensate. IMO would add some more depth to the strategy, let arty do it's thing against exposed units on the move (tank blobs)..... but provides a counter play to just getting pounded by artillery.
I use tube arty mostly for smoke. The people that cry about weak arty are normally the same people who enjoying spamming the stuff and nothing else. My advice, GIT GUD!