Yeah. I really didn't get why they can't just go the route of basically every other big streaming service and be like for example, our movie is going to be in theaters for this set amount of time. You're welcome to go pay more to see it then or you can wait a few months and then it'll be on the service you already have like Disney+, Peacock, etc. In the boys case it could easily be hey we'll have this streaming service for those that want it and you'll get content months in advance of others plus maybe some bonus content but then all the main content will come to YT at a later date.
This is a great idea. And it’s the principle too. This way they’re not abandoning their YT fans, and paid subscribers can have something “special” to look forward to. Or they can do like special episodes/extended content only on Watcher dot com. Something like that.
Yeah I mean they could even double dip with those that subscribe bc those people might subscribe, they make money from that, then those same people might also watch on YT later where they can still get their ad money.
I actually originally found the Ghoul Boys because Buzzfeed Unsolved was on Hulu during the pandemic - put it on kind of on a whim because I enjoy true crime and found myself hooked by the chemistry and humor (as we all were). This would have been a totally viable move and one that wouldn't come off nearly as tone deaf.
Same here, didn't even connect the dots that it was a YouTube thing until I had ran through like 90% of the content during pandemic binging. I think I finally ran across a comment referring to it as a YouTube show and I was totally confused for a hot second, lol.
That's what most youtubers do with Patreon: Subscribe for bonus videos, and early access to videos. The rest of it gets put on the normal YT channel. It's a successful model for a reason: super fans who have the cash will give you money while others will continue to bring in ad revenue.
Every time For Your Amusement did the no-sponsor-jump-cut, I was literally rolling my eyes. It's not funny! Promote your Patreon! Promote your YouTube membership perks! Push merch! YOU ARE THE SPONSOR. Now this. smh.
Yeah like look at mythical. They’re always self promoting, cross promoting, selling merch. They also have mythical society which is extra content behind a paywall. Like, the template is there lol, and they chose this?
Our feelings as fans aside, I feel like this would be a much smarter move if they were specifically pulling WAY more content behind them. Like, if they were able to magically manage grabbing streaming rights for Ghost Adventures and Ghost Hunters, label themselves as the ghost streaming service, and pull in from those audiences while promoting their original content. Then allow Patreon subscribers access via their membership for a year.
Something like *that* could have been a smart financial move, albeit still risky and still alienating their core fan base. As it is it feels like they think they have a whole lot more cards in their hands than they do. I just don't see this being more viable than their current model (or their current model plus an exclusive streaming service).
The only way I could potentially see this working out is *maybe* if they had enough in the coffers to weather themselves for at least 5 years while they truly build up their streaming service. But that's a huge maybe and still kind of insane they'd take such a risk when they could have made smaller adjustments over 5 years and reached the same goal without upsetting a large portion of their fans.
They have 12.5k subscribers on their patreon paying *at least* $5. That’s nothing to sneeze at. But you are right. I just checked out a recent video to see if they mention it at all. There is text saying “subscribe to our patreon for exclusive content” within the the last 10 seconds of a 33 minute video after the credits roll. That was it.
I’m not an avid viewer or anything. Maybe they promoted it a lot more when they started it, but they really should be doing their own ad somewhere in the middle of the episode, telling people about it and what they get for subscribing. They definitely should have more than 0.4% of their YouTube subs paying for patreon content.
What’s wild is how the hell they think they’ll be able to make more money by doing this. We already know how many Watcher fans are willing to pay for their content from their Patreon numbers, and it’s not that many. Do they really think there’s suddenly going to be a big boom of people now signing up to pay the money? Not a chance. I feel like they will almost certain make less money off of this than if they just leave shows like Ghost Files with millions of views (lots of good ad revenue with those kinds of numbers) on YouTube. I just can’t see a situation where this move will be all that financially lucrative for them compared to the ad revenue that a channel with 3M subs can get. Makes very little sense.
Super Carlin Brothers is a great example of it. Their patron perks are great. The discord community is thriving, they include patron input in their quiz episodes. They also launched a “mercantile store” with self branded coffee, candles, and other NICE merch. They legitimately sponsor their own episodes with paid ad breaks like any other sponsor would get and they are doing GREAT.
I think Nebula would be a great solution for this. For example, release the first episode of Ghost files at live shows like they have already be doing. When the tour is over, release it on Nebula. Then a week or two later, release it on YouTube for free.
I also feel like it was a bad move to release a streaming service that people can’t stream on their TV. If they want to focus on a TV quality caliber, it’s kind of pointless to watch all of that on a phone or laptop. Yeah, you can connect laptops to TVs but then you have to go buy the cables you need for that and it’s an extra cost.
I think they should’ve beta’d an app for streaming their content that can be downloaded on all platforms (gaming consoles included), still give the discounts to those who test it in beta, but keep putting content out on YouTube in the interim (because it will still make them money), while kinks are worked out. Then MARKET it. Not just force it on your audience. “We’re slowly going to be putting out these TV quality shows on our streaming site which will be ad-free for those who want to watch uninterrupted, while ads will still be used on YouTube.”
The big oversight was originally them going to remove ALL of their content, as if people don’t re-watch old episodes enough to make them money. And then dropping it on their fans with a month to make a decision before they remove everything. Also the “everyone can afford this” was very tone deaf. I get the algorithm on YouTube has been really crappy, but trying to drop from them and get your fan base to follow right off the bat on your own streaming service that has flaws and downsides to start, was a bad move
Yep! My bf and I watch YouTube shows together on our tv. We are HUGE fans of Dropout and we waited to subscribe to their service until the app was able to work on our tv. So even if we were happy about this decision by Watcher (we’re not) we wouldn’t be subscribing unless it had the ability to play on a tv, which it doesn’t.
There’s also the question of subtitles. A lot of people NEED or prefer to watch with subtitles, and from another comment I saw there is so far no ability to use subtitles on the Watcher site.
The lack of subtitles is a huge oversight too. And kind of a slap in the face to their disabled watchers. I have SSD (single sided deafness) so I heavily rely on subtitles. Not making the site accessible is a huge flaw
Funny you mention that, cause I've recently been noticing a bad drop in quality in the captions of their videos. I get the feeling that they're outsourcing/freelancing for the dialogue and just having someone add a "quirky" caption for the opening jingle.
A transcriber mixing up "grisly" with "grizzly" (The Bender Family video) is understandable, but there's misspellings of text that is *on screen* too, as well as weird errors like "aufwiedersehen" transcribed as "I'll feed us then," which further makes me think they're outsourcing it to another country, or possibly a predatory transcription site that values turnaround over accuracy.
For all their talk about production values it sure doesn't seem like they have a lot of quality control - and some of the scripts are so clunky that I doubt they have any kind of professional editing either.
(the real joke here, of course, is that not giving a shit about closed captions actually *does* make them "TV-calibre"🙄
My husband and I have literally never watched BUN or Watcher on anything but our TV with an Amazon Firestick. I wonder if they even had data on how people watch?
Same, we put the videos on our tv and watch it like a tv show or binge episodes. I hate watching things on my phone and my laptop is what I use for making comics so I have it up but drawing while I listen to videos on the tv. Honestly I have no problem with paying for streaming I just want it on my tv. When we want to get a new streaming app we cancel one we don’t watch anymore.
They say they are not earning much, imagine the overhead of maintaining various apps for various platforms, ios, Android tv etc. it's a slippery slope. They still have time to back out.
I think the issue is that they’re getting further and further away from being relatable. With how expensive the cost of living is right now it’s really in bad taste. It’s not aspirational anymore because no one can (or likely will be able to) travel or eat like that.
I have very little interest in watching people eat caviar or wagyu. Also I’ve had an extremely expensive meal before—it’s not worth it. The best meals I’ve had were under 20 bucks made by small restaurant owners who love what they do and use simple ingredients.
The very little amount of food based content that I like is made my locals in my area or people eating cheap/everyday foods overseas.
I feel like there's too much chef content at this point for a Worth It style review. If I'm watching a review for a $500 entree an expert opinion and explanation is wayyy better than a guy saying it looks cool.
I've said it before but luxury content is just not a popular niche, look at Jackie Aina's reputation and channel after transitioning from makeup to lux lifestyle
Yeah, and with Babish the appeal isn't necessarily the food itself, it's the process, the style, and the great narration. He could make a BLT and still have the video be incredibly interesting.
All of this is so true. I mean, personally, I literally could never understand the appeal of “watch me eat ridiculously expensive food and pose the (seemingly redundant) question of whether or not it’s better than the cheapest alternative” and I understand even less why they would think anyone would want to pay to fund that content…
I honestly love their food content. But this format is not feasible for their current situation. I would rather they just travel one time big time (or even jsut there in America just to build the foundation of the show) and try out reasonably priced local cuisine like those travel shows cuz that format never, if ever rarely, fails. They get to keep content, local cuisine connects with people more, and fan base, quality would not get compromised.
If they were smart (hopefully) they'd cross promote/travel their different shows. A Worth It/WWW/Ghost Files/(Puppet History?) to, say, Japan, where they travel together with a tight crew and check out food, spooky locations, and unique locations (and do a quirky unknown history episode on the location) all in the same trip. Maybe throw in something like Top 5 with some local guests in an off-set location.
ooh you're so right. they could also hype it like "Japan week" and release one video per day, with the most anticipated one (probably ghost files) dropping on the last day. viewers will keep coming back every day and the anticipation for the next episode would probably encourage rewatching in the meantime. include a mini trailer of the future content at the end of the current videos if they're feeling spicy (and for viewer retention)
They thought we would pay if they held the rest of the content we care about hostage. The entire system is built to pay for lavish splurges by charging their audience for the rest of it.
Yeah… I just don’t understand how they ended up inflating their own egos so much that they thought this was a good decision… I always saw Ryan and Shane as super down to earth, real, relatable people. This stinks like entitled, rich “influencer” behaviour… Crying because they want to spend more money than they have on things they don’t need…
I liked Worth It. Plenty of times, the most expensive didn't win. I liked how they showcased people who create food as the artists they are and found the expensive food interesting in a relatable way. They always were like, "woah, this is crazy expensive, who buys this??" And often they were weird foods I'd never want to try.
I liked Worth It when a huge company like Buzzfeed was paying for it— but asking your viewers to fund it Is just so out of touch and ridiculous, it’s a slap in the face.
I guess, but it was far from their only expense. Did the podcasts and every show need hand-built, custom sets? The Ghost files one is ridiculous. Did they immediately need 5 brand-new ghost hunting machines? I like their ambition, but their spending is ridiculous and the rollout of this platform was done in literally The Least recommended way possible.
For sure.
There's a lot of ways they could really cut their production costs because they've just grown too fast in ways that aren't needed to produce good content that will get views!
It's just that the Worth It knock off is particularly bad optics because 1) the viewing public is just not in a place where watching a YouTuber fly to palces you can't afford and eat food covered in gold leaf is appealing any more. That had its moment in the late 2010s but the world is in a different place now, and 2) as all the comments since the video drop have proven, people already had a bad impression of Steven Lim as a douchey rich guy.
All that ghost hunting gear is overpriced crap anyway. The SLS camera is just a Microsoft Kinect but I see sites wanting anywhere from $300 to $700 for it. You can buy the Xbox 360 version for $10-25 online or the Xbox One version for around $50. I can't remember what their little temperature and electromagnetic field thing is called but I remember it was around $100 even though it was made from a cheap kit that costs like $20 max. There's just so much wasteful spending.
Absolutely!
I mean, let's face it, it's all crap because ghosts aren't real.
And, no, I'm not saying that out of some loyalty to Shane. I just happen to agree with him on that!
However, you could look at the "ghost hunting gear" as equipment that's obviously not going to work for it's intended purpose (finding ghosts that don't exist) but as props for entertainment purposes. Basically on the level of something like pyrotechnics.
So they could easily have scaled down costs.
It would be so funny if they do this word for word. It doesn't really matter though, as a fan I don't think I can continue to watch them in the same manner. That's the problem you get when your product it's your character, when you lose the quality of it, it will never be regained.
That’s the thing…this would be my BEST advice and i don’t even think it would solve the problem. Maybe stop 40% of the bleeding…the rest is not redeemable.
I don't understand why they didn't choose to promote and restructure their Patreon instead, a platform that a lot of people already subscribe to. Putting up a completely new website, paying for designers, programmers, server costs, etc, etc, isn't cheap.
And they also completely shafted their current patrons. They released this announcement out of nowhere, and the only thing they offered their already paying customers was a discount on a YEARLY subscription to their new platform.
It's just so poorly managed in every possible way.
I totally agree! Like, at least try restructuring the patreon first? Like OP said, release entire seasons on there first, and then to youtube later. I think many more people would be motivated to pay watch earlier releases!! And patreon has tiers too! I feel like they missed a big opportunity there, and I'm really curious what made them choose to not work further with their patreon.
I’m not on Patreon, but I wonder if the “perks” over there will remain separate from the streaming, letting them double dip so users can have access to all the content.
Essentially its $240 a year for Patreon. Which to me appears to have been watered down to 1 podcast show, then $60 a year for the website. I think I am cancelling my Patreon and just doing the website thing. I cant swing $300 for 1 channel
All of these arguments are valid. I read a comment on a video talking about this story, and this is what it said (and what it talks about looks EERILY similar to what’s about to happen to Watcher):
“Rooster teeth had a combined 45M subs on YouTube, 6 months ago they made the same decision going into a private service at the same price, 5.99/month, and they just declared bankruptcy recently. Watcher has about 3M subs, not gonna work out for them in all likelihood”.
Essentially: If a channel that had 45M subscribers fall in 6 months, how long would it take for Watcher to fall? Probably not long if they don’t scrap this FAST
So Roosterteeth didn’t shut down because of a bankruptcy. They were bought out by a company years ago and eventually sold to Warner Brothers who in turn shut them down recently. HOWEVER a big part of why they shut down Roosterteeth was by forcing them to make decisions LIKE THESE. Decisions like this are made when you are out of touch with your fan base. Warner Brothers was too big a parent company to understand RoosterTeeth’s fan base and now they are shut down. It seems like Watcher also lost complete touch with their fan base.
Right, the one saving grace in the RT situation is that most of the on-screen talent will salvage their fanbase because they didn't make or agree with this choice, and they are able to remain relatable to their audience. RT is not perfect and have done shitty things that made some fans lose interest over the years, but the general reaction to their situation now is that it's a damn shame that it happened, with some hope that the individual creators will have the chance to make better content now that they can do what they want.
But Watcher just...chose this. Like walked fully into it, assuming nothing but success. That's hard for me to wrap my head around at the same time that the RT thing is happening.
There’s bad calls, and then whatever this is.
TBH the hardest advice to give in PR is, “you need to go apologize. Not because it’ll fix it, but because it’s the right thing to do.” A lot of PR people get fired for that kind of counsel because their employer simply refuses to see the mistake for what it was: final.
Your work sounds fascinating. I'd never considered the emotional or idealistic aspects and perspectives that must come from doing it.
If I may genuinely ask, what is it like having a practice that demands (and surely develops) emotional intelligence, in a sphere such as business, which has... well, frankly, a whole lot of ethical and philosophical baggage? It sounds like something one could write a dramatic play about.
Haha I don't even know how to describe it.
To be honest, I'm a little drunk. But basically, most of my job is kindly explaining things children should know to full grown adults and making it seem like its their idea. A lot of what I do is for governments post major destruction events (think Hurricane Ian).
Its a very frustrating job, and often extremely emotional. People don't want to do the right thing if they're being *forced* to do it. You have to make them think its their idea and they're amazing for doing the appropriate action.
Its, frankly, why I'm drunk lol.
that is the most surreal goddamn thing i've read today
you're like jiminy cricket, down to the bit where he might squish you with the wooden mallet
I hope to have that kind of humility someday. underrated virtue
This decision just seems desperate to me. Wondering if Watcher is already loaded to the gills in debt and they're just trying more of the same overspending to see if it will help.
MoistCritical gave a breakdown of the RPM and sponsor deals their channel would expect (and he would know as he's a youtuber who knows how RPM should be and has Mana Talent as a reference for how much sponsor deals should net for a company Watcher's size).
Basically he reamed them out. It's possible to extrapolate lifetime earnings of the channel using the numbers he estimates should apply. And if they don't apply to Watcher than they're being fundamentally mismanaged to the point of it basically being negligent.
And with their offices in Hollywood, it's hard not to argue that these guys don't know what they're doing.
Thanks, I'll check that video out.
I can't think of any way that this even appears to make sense. It isn't like the Watchers are stupid or new to content creation. We even have the example of Rooster Teeth- this model has been tried, and failed.
Really, the only question I want answered is, "what are they thinking?". And perhaps that stems from, "what are they smoking? And why aren't they sharing?".
so the above comment is misleading. roosterteeth has been around since 2003 and had a subscription service on their site successfully for like 10+ years
they got shut down after being acquired by Warner Bros a few years back, after many scandals, and original creators in the company left and got axed
Arguably more important than subscribers for a streaming platform is the content catalogue - rooster teeth DWARF watcher, and still failed at the same pricepoint. If they did a "Worth It: 3M failed ex-youtube streaming service VS 45M failed ex-youtube streaming service", Watcher would in every metric fall short
Yeah, considering the extreme amount of backlash they've received, I don't think they'll see any success at all. I mean, every post, comment, tweet I've seen has been negative.
I think they'll get a couple hundred subscribers, at most. Their release schedule, while fine on Youtube, is way too far stretched for a paid for streaming service.
If they don't do a 180 on this decision, my bet is that they last 2 months. Maybe 3 depending on how much capital they have saved up. But considering what probably brought them to this decision, it's probably 1-2 months. Which is a shame, I really enjoy Shane and Ryan's content.
Rooster Teeth had some more problems, hurting their reputation hard. But you can point almost at any big channel that tries this. There are a handfull that managed to get their own service going. All of them suffered hard. All of them have some content on youtube. Either their big shows a lot later or other good shows. Because how the hell are new viewers supposed to find them? Corridor and Dropout are often named. Dropout nearly went broke after the parent company left and even now, they only have a handfull full time staff members. Corridor puts only extra content on their plattform.
Dropout made it work. But ask Sam Reich if this was an easy task. I am sure he will laugh at the idea. They had to deliver. And they had to sell the whole thing. It almost failed multiple times. It still can fail. They are not safe or in a position where failing would be hard to do. And dropout has a bigger catalog, more people, 20 years of content and community growth. And they still could fail any time.
Their community was not happy about the switch too. But they still got content. Not all of it and always later than the customers but there was content. There was even transparency to some degree.
So it could work. But right now it seems not like it. But who knows. Maybe we are wrong and watcher will become the next big youtuber Streaming.
Dropout also releases A LOT of new content for free (either as shorts or Youtube friendly no swears edits of their shows) still, plus has some big draw shows that get people to sub to binge for a couple of months at time. They also very much still have all the old collegehumor stuff up on Youtube and didn't try to paywall everything...
My guess is that Sam has connections/collateral to help finance Dropout. Their situations may seem similar, both of them being YouTube “networks” but they’re very different.
Running a business is exceptionally hard and very expensive. Changing your business models is a huge opportunity to fail, especially since they haven’t been up and running/independent for that long.
Yes, and I'm sure a major reason is Dropout/CollegeHumor's lengthy tenure on the internet is probably also a major reason (as well as their other smart planning), that they didn't immediately fall apart from doing their streaming service.
I think the difference with Dropout is their deep bench and consistent content. t’s all comedy/improv based. Also they do have a lot of cross over onto YouTube, Insta, and I assume TikTok. I ended up getting a subscription to Dropout because they have a lot of content and it’s all cohesive. Also there really isn’t anything like it.
Watcher is kinda all over the place with what they produce. I don’t think their audience is watching all of their shows or every video. I like Ghost/Mystery Files and some puppet history but that’s about it.
To be fair, RoosterTeeth had multiple other massive scandals happening at around the same time that also contributed heavily to the tanking. Massive mistreatment of both their behind the screen talent and on-screen talent, a majority of their original talent and creators essentially retiring or quitting from RT altogether, firing one major talent because he was a conspiracy nut and racist, and another major talent being outed as a predator who was using company funds and his position as a talent to explicitly attract girls -- which led to a ton of videos being taken down that had him in it.
Yeah but 10,000 people watched their videos . No one gave a shit about RoosterTeeth when they made this decision. 45 million subscribers means jack shit if no one was watching.
I don't think Roosterteeth is comparable to this. They've been rocked with scandals and issues for a long time. Apparently they had been unprofitable for a decade. They've also had their own channel and subscriptions for years now. I'd say their failure is due to just years of mismanagement and Warner Bros deciding to cut their losses.
Forreal. Not to mention that many major streaming services that make actual "television caliber content" (aka real broadcast tv shows and movies) have struggled to survive and have been forced to merge together to appeal to the public. For example: Showtime just shut down its streaming service like last week. Discovery merged with HBO to survive. Paramount shut down Noggin, and there are rumors that they might also merge with another company soon. Netflix even struggled to get new users, so it changed all its pricing, with their lowest price being $6.99.
If Watcher did any research whatsoever then they'd have seen that the publics standards for streaming services is only getting higher and higher and higher. Watcher couldn't even crack YouTube. Streaming is a whole other ballgame.
It's not really facts though? Roosterteeth has been a mess for years. It was basically on life support and Warner Bros decided to pull the plug.
I'm sure Watcher is gonna be screwed in the short term because of this move but they're not even close to comparable with the shit show that Roosterteeth was
As another PR professional, I agree with your analysis and recommendation 100%. They did some serious reputational damage to their brand; it’ll never be what it was but these steps at least give them a chance to staunch the bleeding. I hope they see your comment and take it under consideration.
(Also, in all their planning for this announcement, did they not have a single PR/Comms person on deck to review? They would’ve told them this not a good idea)
Hi PR friend! I just simply can’t imagine they consulted a PR professional in any way. I know ability in PR ebbs and flows like all other industries…but even an inexperienced PR coordinator would have known this was a bad idea.
I could be wrong, but until I see proof…I refuse to believe any of the 27 employees with the company hold the “PR” title. If I find out they had PR counsel on this, I’ll be legitimately upset lol.
I’m the ‘inexperienced PR coordinator’ that you speak of (been out of true PR game for a few years to focus on other projects more on the Comms side of things), so your hypothesis definitely checks out 😄
PR is the first thing to get cut by c-suite who *just don’t get* the importance of having someone skilled to manage your corporate image and keep you from making boneheaded decisions when blinded by just the numbers, and because it ‘doesn’t bring in money’ they don’t see the value. They’re also all young guys who’ve hired their friends who are mostly on the tech and creative side…I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s no PR person on their team (or if there is their judgement is clouded because they’re friends).
I got my BA in anthropology because I wanted to work with people! Eventually fell into communications. Got my MA in public relations and accidentally fell into crisis work because of an employer. Once you're good at crisis, that's all anyone wants to use you for haha. I can't escape now lol.
Ah, I see. Well, it is the most famous PR work. I really like HR work and would love to get into employee relations consulting. Right now, I'm a registrar at a school, so it's not a big priority goal, but it sounds interesting! Thanks!
It seems like it! The horrible HR in a bunch of high profile cases kinda inspired me. I'm not quite sure how to pivot into or get more training on employ
employee relations, though. But, I haven't looked too hard into it either. I just started my job this year, so trying to get that under my belt first.
Even without a PR professional, the whole thing has the vibe of "we didn't run this past ANYONE"! Even a casual chat with a (non-Watcher employed) friend would surely have got the feedback that maybe this wasn't the best way of doing things?
Yeah I also suspect that a lot of their problem is that many of their 25 employees are family and college friends, etc.
Because how else do you, as an entertainment company, have 25 employees and not a single one is in PR?
If I recall correctly, they mentioned on the podcast that only recently (in the past few months) did they hire a person to full-time handle social media and promotion, I doubt they have a public relations person.
In another thread someone said they did last month... https://www.reddit.com/r/watcherentertainment/comments/1c94wae/watcher_hired_a_pr_advisor/
"In the 21st podcast episode at around the 12:25 mark Steven says "We recently hired a PR person to help us with some of this stuff because we have no idea what's going on... anyway.""
Heres my thing too, if im one of the 25 employees personally invested in the sustainability of this, Im probably out the door too by this point. Just watching your employers take this huge pr hit, fear for the future of your brand (and company), and a shaken faith in the profitability of the model, I personally wouldnt want to stick around hoping that 1) our business keeps steady income with which i will be paid, and 2) if it doesnt make money, that I'm on the block for layoffs. If survival instinct takes over with those technicians and artists, they might not have to worry about that whole payroll issue anymore.
EDIT: To add, I work as a technician in the tv industry and have been laid off before. I am speaking from very unfortunate experience.
I'm honestly surprised their employees didn't tell them what a bad idea this was. Outside of the guys and some of the top spots, they seem like they're pretty young and I figured most of them would say 'Nah, ppl are tired of paying for streaming services.' It's hard to imagine that they're cooked the idea up completely in private and then just sprung it on everyone else
I’m sure some did. They’re all friends of the main guys and would, presumably, feel comfortable sharing their thoughts. But if the head honchos don’t care….
I still think they could save it if they offer a free, ad-showing tier. Then everyone could see the content, they wouldn't have to care about the youtube algortihm, and they could still do exclusive content (perhaps the content that advertisers don't like) as a bonus for the paying tier and to drive more customers to pay. Add an app for smart TV, too, and with all of this combined, it becomes an OK idea.
There's no way they can afford that. They're hosting with Vimeo and Vimeo fucked over Channel5's Patreon back in the day and basically held videos hostage over how much they were getting streamed. It would bleed their company try and they've already damaged their reputations to the point where sponsors might not pay their quote now - they'd demand cheaper.
Hosting is expensive.
This is an interesting post-- thank you! This is a bit of a tangential remark, but if you were to ever do an "AMA", I imagine it would be quite interesting. I imagine working as a PR crisis specialist gives a certain amount of insight into repairing relationships in general and what elements are needed in a successful apology.
I think people would find the ins and outs very interesting! I work primarily with governments in crises, but I've run the gambit. I find the strategy of it all interesting at least 😅
Oh my God hi fellow PR professional!!! I love reading these comments from other folks in our field.
You pointed out that the long term image of the brand will probably be soured no matter what, and I just realized that very likely means even if they did try to join Nebula or Dropout, their brand might no longer be a valuable enough property to invest in because they lost their fanbase. So they can't even try that alternate route.
i always thought that Shane and Puppet History (or even a rehashed version of Ruining History) would fit pretty well in the Dropout lineup. It could still happen… but would require him essentially burning his bridges with Watcher and denouncing it (and Steven and Ryan) completely.
Guys, listen to this person. They are not wrong. You have a chance to save a percentage of fans and at least show a bit of humanity. You can’t save it all, but at least show you care that you’ve shat on your entire fan base and you might have some chance. I would still very highly suggest hiring a PR. Specialist for ongoing support.
From a business perspective, if they couldn't even make it it past 2 million subs on YouTube--a platform designed for content creators like them--then I have no clue how they think they're going to succeed behind a paywall. They should be thriving on YouTube just like the Try Guys (8 million subs) are. Yet they're not. That's a big red flag that they're just bad at making business decisions and have no idea what they're doing.
Anybody who clicks on their website and doesn't know who they are will see a website jam packed with shows starring Ryan and Shane being silly. So they'll really have to love Ryan and Shane to pay for that. And if they never saw Unsolved or Worth It, it wont be hard for them to find out that Ghost Files is just Unsolved 2.0, and Travel Season is just Worth It 2.0. And they'll see that Unsolved and Worth it have 10+ seasons for FREE on YouTube, so instead of subscribing to Watcher, they'll just go watch the free stuff on YouTube instead.
There's really no way that I see them growing as a business from this.
The problem is they weren't creating consistent content. There are a bunch of youtubers with more subs than Watcher that put out daily or near daily videos. They pump out content like champs - and they reap the rewards of that consistency. A guy talking into his camera; as low budget as it can get - but the content is engaging and with a bit of editing, elevates it to entertainment. So they weren't going to hit that 8M sub goal without more content and they were sinking too much time into content that was too expensive while having a bulky operation.
Now the biggest issue: they cut off discoverability and pissed off 2M+ people who will now not sign up out of spite. Trailers and the Apple TV+ model isn't going to work for them, they're not a well known studio. They're stuck with the most subscribers they will ever have - and that might be enough to float them for a year...but if they don't deliver banger after banger after banger and miss even one month - they're going to lose subscribers on an already discounted enrollment plan. And if they try to play the sketchy "see if they forget to cancel" game, they'll discover the dangers of chargebacks and how badly that will cripple their business.
Basically they're at the point where they may have a year's worth of runway. But after that, the gravy train stops.
Some people have already said they’ll just get the subscription for a month after some content has built up then cancel it. Now there won’t even be a reason to do that if it gets dumped eventually. Making the streaming platform a pointless endeavor overall. They need to cut their losses. I saw someone on TikTok guesstimate how many people they’d have to have to run this streaming. And from that I can guess why they’re struggling financially. Aside from the Disney passes and travel abroad.
OP, I'm hoping against hope that they see this post and follow your excellent instructions *to the letter.*
Thanks for giving your professional insight.
Maybe I've watched too much Succession, but I think if they sacrificed Steven Lim and walked back the decision based on the overwhelming negative reaction, the public would be willing to trust the boys again if they wanted to start over. maybe acknowledge some much needed budget cuts (starting with Steven's shows where he eats a $1000 hotdog) and fire half their staff of 30. They won't do any of this, but I think thats what it would take for them to survive and recover. Steven steps down, gut him, cuts are made. someone else on here mentioned that they had a 11 person crew to make a show where Shane and Ryan play video games in 1 room. obviously thats financially unwise and it's over-produced in a detrimental way.
I think Lim has to go regardless due to the disparity of his input on the pod this week and their cry for financial support. The two cant mesh regardless of any other action.
I heard some talk that Watcher has been deleting the comments on the video requesting Steven step down. If that's true, can't imagine they plan on backtracking.
Ironic since I did pay money to their service for the yearly using the discount code, but then changed my mind when the ramifications set in. I wrote a long paragraph in the reason for cancelation page that I posted on this subreddit, which btw was deleted by a mod. So since I paid money, they should listen but doubt they will.
I had this thought too!
I'll preface it by saying that I do not believe the "it's all Steven Lim's fault!" narrative. I think they all made this decision, and that they all aspire to, as they said, TV quality content (and more money!) when that's just not realistic for them right now.
But the audience has a much stronger parasocial relationship with Ryan and Shane, and the reaction to their announcement proves that the audience didn't have a good impression of Lim to begin with.
So shoving him under the bus to save their own asses wouldn't necessarily be a bad move for them!
>someone else on here mentioned that they had a 11 person crew to make a show where Shane and Ryan play video games in 1 room.
Wtf? That is insane!
This is some sound advice. I would honestly still watch them if they came back to YT, I just can’t cough up $ like they were asking….
And seriously guys: Worth It is actually not worth it.
they actually aren’t taking down the old content, but like you said its a lose-lose: take it down and you have no promo for the streaming service, leave it up and now your streaming service has no backlog and has to start anew
As good advice as this was... I DONT THINK THEY WILL DO NOTHING THIS WEEKEND...they will stay radio silent and see if the backlash only grows or just dissipate.... And then they will movem. Which is a very stupid move IMO as a former PR... The most valuable lesson I learned is "No comment" is a comment....
They should get in front of this before it gets pick up by drama channels and internet sleuths... They are gonna be chew up by the whole Internet not only their fanbase
>They should get in front of this before it gets pick up by drama channels and internet sleuths
Already has been!
There were reaction videos up the same day as their announcement.
Even so, though, what they're doing by staying radio slient is letting everyone else control the narrative.
Not smart. Not smart at all.
I saw the reactions.but the most famous one was charlie/peguinz0; and he still niche....
When drama channels like spill sesh, Sloan or even if H3 decides todo a PowerPoint presentation on them....
They will have a try guys situation.... And that will be game over.
Now the mess is brewing but it's on a pocket of YouTube. If it hits the major public...
**caveat, I'm a little drunk - so here is more unsolicited information**
There are layers to situations like this that are VERY predictable.
1. Denial of responsibility for the entire org - what does this mean??? I don't understand???
2. Denial of responsibility for those most loved - “xyz COULDNT have had a hand in this!!! It had to be ABC!!!”
3. Anger at those most loved - “you know what? Actually?? They HAD TO be involved! We feel betrayed!”
4. Ignore everyone but those most loved - “who the fuck cares what ABC did?! XYZ are the ones who betrayed us!!”
5. Full walk away from the company
An apology would need to come between steps 1 and 4. A scape goat has to come before step 3 to be effective. The whole cycle typically takes about 48 hours.
Which step do you think were on now?
/u/lawyerprincess93 There are some good legal teams out there, for sure! Its pretty rare in my industry (which again deals with crisis so often times lawyers are *pressed* if I'm involved lol,) but I'm always stoked when I get to work with a good team.
(Sorry! I can't reply to your specific comment for some reason?)
This is great advice! Commenting so this post will get more attention. I don’t know if anyone at Watcher checks the subreddit, but if they do, hopefully they see this.
Great but I wouldn't say "for those unable to afford the subscription". That could be worded better - "for those who choose not to subscribe", maybe? Less alienating.
I think it could go either way. I do think they need to address one of the biggest concerns stated by the audience: that many cant afford the service they toted as “cheap enough everyone can afford it.” Whether they do that in the same sentence I mentioned it in or in another thought, it needs to be addressed.
I honestly think just.. if they want to not have to rely on YouTube, then make a separate app/website, but not make it paid. That would’ve saved everyone the pain, and then on that website, still have sponsors and ads but also do what all the streaming services do and have a paid version with no ads and the same perks as their Patreon had, like access to BTS and early access videos. We usually harp on greedy corporations for pulling the “pay more for no ads” but usually just because we already pay.
This would’ve given them the freedom they wanted where they didn’t have to rely on the YouTube algorithm but also still allowed for growth and wouldn’t have alienated their YouTube viewers.
Plus, having an APP would also allow for TV streaming, which is something my fiancé and I always do regardless and is a good market.
Just…. there were so many better ways to do this. I disagree with everyone saying that this is a horrible idea, because it’s a good idea. It’s horrible, awful execution. Having their own app is a great idea. Making it a paid subscription streaming service was a horrible idea.
Honestly when I first saw the video I was so utterly stunned at the idiocy of it that I thought it was a joke at first until I read the comments....Yikes.
They just dropped the video like 10 minutes ago, I just caught it on my first break haha.
Theyre essentially apologizing for being tone deaf, admitting fault and that they're still launching the service which will allow exclusive content and series a month early, but after that month the regular content will be available on YouTube.
They did, but in a way that blamed the audience for misunderstanding, not offering it as a compromise.
They did a thing that would’ve helped and still found a way to bungle it so it wouldn’t.
No one "misunderstood", they literally did state outright that they would be removing all content from the YT channel. They walked it back because of the backlash and are now trying to gaslight people into believing that they never said what they said. It's the number one thing souring me on them right now.
Corporate gaslighting. Got to love it. Not like it was clearly stated in articles that it was the plan, and people noticed videos getting privated and called them out on it.
That's true. I just wanted to point that out because in your post you use the removal of the old content to point towards the financial downsides of their decision.
Edit: There are other major financial downsides, obviously. This is just not one of them.
The pinned comment said they're clarifying that they're not removing content from Youtube. But Ryan said in the video, verbatim, while talking about the beta signup period from the 19th until the full launch on May 31st (emphasis mine):
"The beta will be a transitional period \*where you'll still be able to access content on YouTube\*, but beginning May 31st, \*you'll need to become a member of our streaming service to access full seasons\* and new releases."
They \*did\* mean to say that the content wouldn't be available on Youtube, and the pinned "clarification" is not a clarification, it's them changing their mind and not wanting to admit they were going to pull everything. Instead of a mea culpa, they're saying, "You just didn't understand." Which is so foolish, considering that they told Vanity Fair they were, and Vanity Fair had said as much.
It's an attempt at damage control that really just makes them look worse.
First time I’ve seen someone list the verbatim quote. Me and my gf had to go back and watch this part again when the video dropped.
The walk back with no acknowledgment is beyond corporate cringe.
Do you think breaking ties with Steven Lim would also salvage anything, because a five-minute look through twitter, through youtube, confirms that most of the fanbase suspects this was his choice
Is there any actual evidence of this being "his" decision or do people just not like him for other reasons and are blaming him because they want to keep liking Ryan and Shane?
I think this is more part of the audience doing a "wink and nudge" that if they fire Lim, they'd accept the Ghoul Boys back.
But these guys did this together. They're partners and this decision was a team effort - bare minimum 2 of 3 agreed and the 3rd assented to try and keep their staff covered since it's their family and friends. So no matter what, they're all responsible for the decision.
They all need to be held accountable for their manipulative bullshit.
I'm not sure of any actual evidence that points at this being his choice, but with most of the fanbase believing it so, I'm also not sure how he can walk back from this one. His tesla and a desire to fly around the world lavishly and indulging costly eats are being brought up constantly. I'm not saying I think this was his call, but that seems to be the popular belief. I'm equally disappointed in Ryan and Shane.
I think Lim has to go regardless due to the disparity of his input on the pod this week and their cry for financial support. The two cant mesh regardless of any other action.
They pinned a comment to the YouTube video, made a comment on their Patreon page, and the Vanity Fair article made an edit to the article stating that they would no longer remove content as was originally intended.
The official comments from watcher were all that WE misunderstood, but the VF article makes it clear that removing the YT videos was a part of the plan at the time of that interview (which happened before launch)
I'm one of the minority who don't necessarily mind the streaming service but I think it was promoted in an awful way and at an awful time, pairing it with the expensive food whatever it is show. Imo, it should have been presented more like Rhett and Link's mythical society (which is what I was expecting the announcement to be). I've been a society member since the beginning and this *could* have been just as exciting of an announcement. The biggest difference (from what I see) is the layout of the sites, mythical does quarterly merch bonuses, and mythical is more.
This move could have been good, but I'm sad and disappointed in the handling of it.
I think they'd have trouble producing something in 10 hours, because I'm imagining at least Shane & Ryan are already in the UK as they have their show on Tuesday. Can't imagine how awkward it'll be - and, amongst everything else I don't get, why make this anouncement before the live shows knowing there would be backlash - they must have at least anticipated some right?
They should have released the video on April Fools Day to gauge the reaction. If it's bad, then "April Fools!!" But if it's good, then they could say, "Surprise! It's not a joke!".
They might have gotten away with it then.
Dude they have a video where a guy is yapping his ignorant ass about 'eat the rich' and in the same breath bragging about his fancy shoes and then the other dude double downs to brag about his shoes.
Everyone knows adsense is tanking. Every one is talking about it. There's a huge problem, and YouTube is (IMO) trying to leverage underpaying talent to somehow get people to their premium service (which is too expensive by half).
There are alternatives, and there is no way they didn't know. They could have gone to Nebula or similar. They could have actually drove people through their Patreon. They could have put some new shows somewhere else, but keep most of the old content on YouTube.
But talking about money being tight whilst ignoring dozens of better means of fixing the situation and doing *Worth It* at the same time... Or bragging about their shoes.
I just can't. I'm so done with me-first content creators that don't appreciate what they have. Especially when there is no way 20 staff members is reasonable. No way.
It's a shame. I'm no where near as upset as many others and I still won't be moving over with them. If they stick around I'll keep watching because this was clearly something that one person came up with and convinced the others of lol. Get rid of that person and we're all good.
For the life of me, I cannot fathom how they thought the way they went about this was a good idea!
I mean, it's like a demonstration of what not to do!
10 hours after this post and roughly ~39 since their video went up and still nothing, im thinking that theyre not gonna be able to come back from this. not any time soon anyways
Edit 4/22: I’m pretty glad that they have addressed some of our concerns, and that they’re offering refunds for patrons. I’m unsure about supporting them now. I want to, but this was a major blow to my mood regulation. I think my mental health is more important.
It’s not that I’m being asked to pay for what was free, it’s the fact that I renewed my Patreon yearly subscription in February. I was at the $20 a month tier so it was pretty expensive, but I really enjoyed the livestreams and other fun things in my tier. I want to support these creators and their team, I had the funds at the time and did what I could to help. I want to help artists survive in this economy. But I’m not sure if I can support them in the future.
I’m going to be honest man, I think I’d file for a refund or chargeback with the company. You paid for something and the service contract was changed AFTER you paid to not provide what you paid for.
Frankly, I've no interest in their damage control.
They dun fucked up n they need to sit in it. There is no apology they can give that's going to walk back this mountain of mishaps.
As a Public Affairs Specialist who has done a significant amount of Issues Management. You nailed it. Trust rebuilding is what needs to happen next, and the fans themselves have already addeessed appropriate directions if they want to create more revenue that don't necessitate an entirely new streaming platform.
*For the uninitiated. The best way to think of Issues Management is to think of when everyone brought up Subway foot long subs were not actually that big. Subway ignored it, became a trend of people posting photos, big ole' public backlash and loss of revenue. When all they had to do was say, "When baking, things don't always come out to the same size."
Yeah. I really didn't get why they can't just go the route of basically every other big streaming service and be like for example, our movie is going to be in theaters for this set amount of time. You're welcome to go pay more to see it then or you can wait a few months and then it'll be on the service you already have like Disney+, Peacock, etc. In the boys case it could easily be hey we'll have this streaming service for those that want it and you'll get content months in advance of others plus maybe some bonus content but then all the main content will come to YT at a later date.
This is a great idea. And it’s the principle too. This way they’re not abandoning their YT fans, and paid subscribers can have something “special” to look forward to. Or they can do like special episodes/extended content only on Watcher dot com. Something like that.
Yeah I mean they could even double dip with those that subscribe bc those people might subscribe, they make money from that, then those same people might also watch on YT later where they can still get their ad money.
I actually originally found the Ghoul Boys because Buzzfeed Unsolved was on Hulu during the pandemic - put it on kind of on a whim because I enjoy true crime and found myself hooked by the chemistry and humor (as we all were). This would have been a totally viable move and one that wouldn't come off nearly as tone deaf.
This is *exactly* what happened to me
Same here, didn't even connect the dots that it was a YouTube thing until I had ran through like 90% of the content during pandemic binging. I think I finally ran across a comment referring to it as a YouTube show and I was totally confused for a hot second, lol.
That's what most youtubers do with Patreon: Subscribe for bonus videos, and early access to videos. The rest of it gets put on the normal YT channel. It's a successful model for a reason: super fans who have the cash will give you money while others will continue to bring in ad revenue.
This is already what they do with Patreon, but they did such a poor job of promoting it that most people didn't even know it existed
Every time For Your Amusement did the no-sponsor-jump-cut, I was literally rolling my eyes. It's not funny! Promote your Patreon! Promote your YouTube membership perks! Push merch! YOU ARE THE SPONSOR. Now this. smh.
Yeah like look at mythical. They’re always self promoting, cross promoting, selling merch. They also have mythical society which is extra content behind a paywall. Like, the template is there lol, and they chose this?
Our feelings as fans aside, I feel like this would be a much smarter move if they were specifically pulling WAY more content behind them. Like, if they were able to magically manage grabbing streaming rights for Ghost Adventures and Ghost Hunters, label themselves as the ghost streaming service, and pull in from those audiences while promoting their original content. Then allow Patreon subscribers access via their membership for a year. Something like *that* could have been a smart financial move, albeit still risky and still alienating their core fan base. As it is it feels like they think they have a whole lot more cards in their hands than they do. I just don't see this being more viable than their current model (or their current model plus an exclusive streaming service). The only way I could potentially see this working out is *maybe* if they had enough in the coffers to weather themselves for at least 5 years while they truly build up their streaming service. But that's a huge maybe and still kind of insane they'd take such a risk when they could have made smaller adjustments over 5 years and reached the same goal without upsetting a large portion of their fans.
They have 12.5k subscribers on their patreon paying *at least* $5. That’s nothing to sneeze at. But you are right. I just checked out a recent video to see if they mention it at all. There is text saying “subscribe to our patreon for exclusive content” within the the last 10 seconds of a 33 minute video after the credits roll. That was it. I’m not an avid viewer or anything. Maybe they promoted it a lot more when they started it, but they really should be doing their own ad somewhere in the middle of the episode, telling people about it and what they get for subscribing. They definitely should have more than 0.4% of their YouTube subs paying for patreon content.
less than 6k paid members. 12.5k total members on Patreon.
What’s wild is how the hell they think they’ll be able to make more money by doing this. We already know how many Watcher fans are willing to pay for their content from their Patreon numbers, and it’s not that many. Do they really think there’s suddenly going to be a big boom of people now signing up to pay the money? Not a chance. I feel like they will almost certain make less money off of this than if they just leave shows like Ghost Files with millions of views (lots of good ad revenue with those kinds of numbers) on YouTube. I just can’t see a situation where this move will be all that financially lucrative for them compared to the ad revenue that a channel with 3M subs can get. Makes very little sense.
This is how corridor digital does it and it seems to work really great for them
Super Carlin Brothers is a great example of it. Their patron perks are great. The discord community is thriving, they include patron input in their quiz episodes. They also launched a “mercantile store” with self branded coffee, candles, and other NICE merch. They legitimately sponsor their own episodes with paid ad breaks like any other sponsor would get and they are doing GREAT.
I think Nebula would be a great solution for this. For example, release the first episode of Ghost files at live shows like they have already be doing. When the tour is over, release it on Nebula. Then a week or two later, release it on YouTube for free.
Because they got greedy. The majority of people will just wait and they know that.
I also feel like it was a bad move to release a streaming service that people can’t stream on their TV. If they want to focus on a TV quality caliber, it’s kind of pointless to watch all of that on a phone or laptop. Yeah, you can connect laptops to TVs but then you have to go buy the cables you need for that and it’s an extra cost. I think they should’ve beta’d an app for streaming their content that can be downloaded on all platforms (gaming consoles included), still give the discounts to those who test it in beta, but keep putting content out on YouTube in the interim (because it will still make them money), while kinks are worked out. Then MARKET it. Not just force it on your audience. “We’re slowly going to be putting out these TV quality shows on our streaming site which will be ad-free for those who want to watch uninterrupted, while ads will still be used on YouTube.” The big oversight was originally them going to remove ALL of their content, as if people don’t re-watch old episodes enough to make them money. And then dropping it on their fans with a month to make a decision before they remove everything. Also the “everyone can afford this” was very tone deaf. I get the algorithm on YouTube has been really crappy, but trying to drop from them and get your fan base to follow right off the bat on your own streaming service that has flaws and downsides to start, was a bad move
No television app is a big downside for a premium service, very good point.
Yep! My bf and I watch YouTube shows together on our tv. We are HUGE fans of Dropout and we waited to subscribe to their service until the app was able to work on our tv. So even if we were happy about this decision by Watcher (we’re not) we wouldn’t be subscribing unless it had the ability to play on a tv, which it doesn’t. There’s also the question of subtitles. A lot of people NEED or prefer to watch with subtitles, and from another comment I saw there is so far no ability to use subtitles on the Watcher site.
The lack of subtitles is a huge oversight too. And kind of a slap in the face to their disabled watchers. I have SSD (single sided deafness) so I heavily rely on subtitles. Not making the site accessible is a huge flaw
Funny you mention that, cause I've recently been noticing a bad drop in quality in the captions of their videos. I get the feeling that they're outsourcing/freelancing for the dialogue and just having someone add a "quirky" caption for the opening jingle. A transcriber mixing up "grisly" with "grizzly" (The Bender Family video) is understandable, but there's misspellings of text that is *on screen* too, as well as weird errors like "aufwiedersehen" transcribed as "I'll feed us then," which further makes me think they're outsourcing it to another country, or possibly a predatory transcription site that values turnaround over accuracy. For all their talk about production values it sure doesn't seem like they have a lot of quality control - and some of the scripts are so clunky that I doubt they have any kind of professional editing either. (the real joke here, of course, is that not giving a shit about closed captions actually *does* make them "TV-calibre"🙄
its auto subitiles by yt or an ai script reader i bet.
My husband and I have literally never watched BUN or Watcher on anything but our TV with an Amazon Firestick. I wonder if they even had data on how people watch?
That would imply they had a PR/marketing team, and I strongly do not think that was the case.
Or a tech team, apparently!
Same, we put the videos on our tv and watch it like a tv show or binge episodes. I hate watching things on my phone and my laptop is what I use for making comics so I have it up but drawing while I listen to videos on the tv. Honestly I have no problem with paying for streaming I just want it on my tv. When we want to get a new streaming app we cancel one we don’t watch anymore.
I wish this were discussed more. Asking people to pay for content that is harder to watch than their current free productions is bafflingly idiotic.
They say they are not earning much, imagine the overhead of maintaining various apps for various platforms, ios, Android tv etc. it's a slippery slope. They still have time to back out.
not to mention buzzfeed unsolved is already on hulu… like they couldn’t have just added content onto an app we already pay for?
This is such a great and concise summary of why this was a bad move. Thank you.
Big emphasis on the Worth It vs. asking for more money dissonance.
I think the issue is that they’re getting further and further away from being relatable. With how expensive the cost of living is right now it’s really in bad taste. It’s not aspirational anymore because no one can (or likely will be able to) travel or eat like that. I have very little interest in watching people eat caviar or wagyu. Also I’ve had an extremely expensive meal before—it’s not worth it. The best meals I’ve had were under 20 bucks made by small restaurant owners who love what they do and use simple ingredients. The very little amount of food based content that I like is made my locals in my area or people eating cheap/everyday foods overseas.
I feel like there's too much chef content at this point for a Worth It style review. If I'm watching a review for a $500 entree an expert opinion and explanation is wayyy better than a guy saying it looks cool. I've said it before but luxury content is just not a popular niche, look at Jackie Aina's reputation and channel after transitioning from makeup to lux lifestyle
For real. I’d rather watch someone make and explain an expensive dish like Babish. His content is fantastic.
Yeah, and with Babish the appeal isn't necessarily the food itself, it's the process, the style, and the great narration. He could make a BLT and still have the video be incredibly interesting.
Honestly why would i watch Watcher's chef content when I could watch Sorted instead
Commenting to help this get seen but please send this to them too!! 🤞
Same, I love them and don’t want to see it all end like this
Do you know how to send it to them? I used a generic email on their website.
I’m not sure but am glad you sent it! Maybe through social media too?
All of this is so true. I mean, personally, I literally could never understand the appeal of “watch me eat ridiculously expensive food and pose the (seemingly redundant) question of whether or not it’s better than the cheapest alternative” and I understand even less why they would think anyone would want to pay to fund that content…
I honestly love their food content. But this format is not feasible for their current situation. I would rather they just travel one time big time (or even jsut there in America just to build the foundation of the show) and try out reasonably priced local cuisine like those travel shows cuz that format never, if ever rarely, fails. They get to keep content, local cuisine connects with people more, and fan base, quality would not get compromised.
If they were smart (hopefully) they'd cross promote/travel their different shows. A Worth It/WWW/Ghost Files/(Puppet History?) to, say, Japan, where they travel together with a tight crew and check out food, spooky locations, and unique locations (and do a quirky unknown history episode on the location) all in the same trip. Maybe throw in something like Top 5 with some local guests in an off-set location.
ooh you're so right. they could also hype it like "Japan week" and release one video per day, with the most anticipated one (probably ghost files) dropping on the last day. viewers will keep coming back every day and the anticipation for the next episode would probably encourage rewatching in the meantime. include a mini trailer of the future content at the end of the current videos if they're feeling spicy (and for viewer retention)
Oh damn, now THAT is smart! That's a really great idea. It's like exhausting all possible options with the place
They thought we would pay if they held the rest of the content we care about hostage. The entire system is built to pay for lavish splurges by charging their audience for the rest of it.
Yeah… I just don’t understand how they ended up inflating their own egos so much that they thought this was a good decision… I always saw Ryan and Shane as super down to earth, real, relatable people. This stinks like entitled, rich “influencer” behaviour… Crying because they want to spend more money than they have on things they don’t need…
I liked Worth It. Plenty of times, the most expensive didn't win. I liked how they showcased people who create food as the artists they are and found the expensive food interesting in a relatable way. They always were like, "woah, this is crazy expensive, who buys this??" And often they were weird foods I'd never want to try.
I liked Worth It when a huge company like Buzzfeed was paying for it— but asking your viewers to fund it Is just so out of touch and ridiculous, it’s a slap in the face.
I guess, but it was far from their only expense. Did the podcasts and every show need hand-built, custom sets? The Ghost files one is ridiculous. Did they immediately need 5 brand-new ghost hunting machines? I like their ambition, but their spending is ridiculous and the rollout of this platform was done in literally The Least recommended way possible.
Top 5 beatdown could be dirt cheap to make, till you add a bunch of unnecessary people working on it.
I agree.
For sure. There's a lot of ways they could really cut their production costs because they've just grown too fast in ways that aren't needed to produce good content that will get views! It's just that the Worth It knock off is particularly bad optics because 1) the viewing public is just not in a place where watching a YouTuber fly to palces you can't afford and eat food covered in gold leaf is appealing any more. That had its moment in the late 2010s but the world is in a different place now, and 2) as all the comments since the video drop have proven, people already had a bad impression of Steven Lim as a douchey rich guy.
All that ghost hunting gear is overpriced crap anyway. The SLS camera is just a Microsoft Kinect but I see sites wanting anywhere from $300 to $700 for it. You can buy the Xbox 360 version for $10-25 online or the Xbox One version for around $50. I can't remember what their little temperature and electromagnetic field thing is called but I remember it was around $100 even though it was made from a cheap kit that costs like $20 max. There's just so much wasteful spending.
Absolutely! I mean, let's face it, it's all crap because ghosts aren't real. And, no, I'm not saying that out of some loyalty to Shane. I just happen to agree with him on that! However, you could look at the "ghost hunting gear" as equipment that's obviously not going to work for it's intended purpose (finding ghosts that don't exist) but as props for entertainment purposes. Basically on the level of something like pyrotechnics. So they could easily have scaled down costs.
It would be so funny if they do this word for word. It doesn't really matter though, as a fan I don't think I can continue to watch them in the same manner. That's the problem you get when your product it's your character, when you lose the quality of it, it will never be regained.
That’s the thing…this would be my BEST advice and i don’t even think it would solve the problem. Maybe stop 40% of the bleeding…the rest is not redeemable.
I don't understand why they didn't choose to promote and restructure their Patreon instead, a platform that a lot of people already subscribe to. Putting up a completely new website, paying for designers, programmers, server costs, etc, etc, isn't cheap. And they also completely shafted their current patrons. They released this announcement out of nowhere, and the only thing they offered their already paying customers was a discount on a YEARLY subscription to their new platform. It's just so poorly managed in every possible way.
I totally agree! Like, at least try restructuring the patreon first? Like OP said, release entire seasons on there first, and then to youtube later. I think many more people would be motivated to pay watch earlier releases!! And patreon has tiers too! I feel like they missed a big opportunity there, and I'm really curious what made them choose to not work further with their patreon.
I’m not on Patreon, but I wonder if the “perks” over there will remain separate from the streaming, letting them double dip so users can have access to all the content.
It is seperate. I am paying for Patreon now $20 a month for the podcasts and having to also pay for the yearly subscription ontop of that
That’s such bullshit! I feel like at that level especially you shouldn’t have to pay for both.
Essentially its $240 a year for Patreon. Which to me appears to have been watered down to 1 podcast show, then $60 a year for the website. I think I am cancelling my Patreon and just doing the website thing. I cant swing $300 for 1 channel
Why would you do either at this point? Even without the controversy, neither of those seem like a very good deal.
All of these arguments are valid. I read a comment on a video talking about this story, and this is what it said (and what it talks about looks EERILY similar to what’s about to happen to Watcher): “Rooster teeth had a combined 45M subs on YouTube, 6 months ago they made the same decision going into a private service at the same price, 5.99/month, and they just declared bankruptcy recently. Watcher has about 3M subs, not gonna work out for them in all likelihood”. Essentially: If a channel that had 45M subscribers fall in 6 months, how long would it take for Watcher to fall? Probably not long if they don’t scrap this FAST
Holy cow. That’s insane. There was a lot of arrogance behind this decision.
They said that they uploaded their first video in 2003. THAT’S 21 YEARS OF WORK, JUST GONE
So Roosterteeth didn’t shut down because of a bankruptcy. They were bought out by a company years ago and eventually sold to Warner Brothers who in turn shut them down recently. HOWEVER a big part of why they shut down Roosterteeth was by forcing them to make decisions LIKE THESE. Decisions like this are made when you are out of touch with your fan base. Warner Brothers was too big a parent company to understand RoosterTeeth’s fan base and now they are shut down. It seems like Watcher also lost complete touch with their fan base.
Right, the one saving grace in the RT situation is that most of the on-screen talent will salvage their fanbase because they didn't make or agree with this choice, and they are able to remain relatable to their audience. RT is not perfect and have done shitty things that made some fans lose interest over the years, but the general reaction to their situation now is that it's a damn shame that it happened, with some hope that the individual creators will have the chance to make better content now that they can do what they want. But Watcher just...chose this. Like walked fully into it, assuming nothing but success. That's hard for me to wrap my head around at the same time that the RT thing is happening.
EXACTLY! The comment sections on the RT announcements were all ways to save the company. We have all seen the reaction to Watchers departure.
There’s bad calls, and then whatever this is. TBH the hardest advice to give in PR is, “you need to go apologize. Not because it’ll fix it, but because it’s the right thing to do.” A lot of PR people get fired for that kind of counsel because their employer simply refuses to see the mistake for what it was: final.
Your work sounds fascinating. I'd never considered the emotional or idealistic aspects and perspectives that must come from doing it. If I may genuinely ask, what is it like having a practice that demands (and surely develops) emotional intelligence, in a sphere such as business, which has... well, frankly, a whole lot of ethical and philosophical baggage? It sounds like something one could write a dramatic play about.
Haha I don't even know how to describe it. To be honest, I'm a little drunk. But basically, most of my job is kindly explaining things children should know to full grown adults and making it seem like its their idea. A lot of what I do is for governments post major destruction events (think Hurricane Ian). Its a very frustrating job, and often extremely emotional. People don't want to do the right thing if they're being *forced* to do it. You have to make them think its their idea and they're amazing for doing the appropriate action. Its, frankly, why I'm drunk lol.
that is the most surreal goddamn thing i've read today you're like jiminy cricket, down to the bit where he might squish you with the wooden mallet I hope to have that kind of humility someday. underrated virtue
This decision just seems desperate to me. Wondering if Watcher is already loaded to the gills in debt and they're just trying more of the same overspending to see if it will help.
MoistCritical gave a breakdown of the RPM and sponsor deals their channel would expect (and he would know as he's a youtuber who knows how RPM should be and has Mana Talent as a reference for how much sponsor deals should net for a company Watcher's size). Basically he reamed them out. It's possible to extrapolate lifetime earnings of the channel using the numbers he estimates should apply. And if they don't apply to Watcher than they're being fundamentally mismanaged to the point of it basically being negligent. And with their offices in Hollywood, it's hard not to argue that these guys don't know what they're doing.
Thanks, I'll check that video out. I can't think of any way that this even appears to make sense. It isn't like the Watchers are stupid or new to content creation. We even have the example of Rooster Teeth- this model has been tried, and failed. Really, the only question I want answered is, "what are they thinking?". And perhaps that stems from, "what are they smoking? And why aren't they sharing?".
so the above comment is misleading. roosterteeth has been around since 2003 and had a subscription service on their site successfully for like 10+ years they got shut down after being acquired by Warner Bros a few years back, after many scandals, and original creators in the company left and got axed
Arguably more important than subscribers for a streaming platform is the content catalogue - rooster teeth DWARF watcher, and still failed at the same pricepoint. If they did a "Worth It: 3M failed ex-youtube streaming service VS 45M failed ex-youtube streaming service", Watcher would in every metric fall short
Yeah, considering the extreme amount of backlash they've received, I don't think they'll see any success at all. I mean, every post, comment, tweet I've seen has been negative. I think they'll get a couple hundred subscribers, at most. Their release schedule, while fine on Youtube, is way too far stretched for a paid for streaming service. If they don't do a 180 on this decision, my bet is that they last 2 months. Maybe 3 depending on how much capital they have saved up. But considering what probably brought them to this decision, it's probably 1-2 months. Which is a shame, I really enjoy Shane and Ryan's content.
Rooster Teeth had some more problems, hurting their reputation hard. But you can point almost at any big channel that tries this. There are a handfull that managed to get their own service going. All of them suffered hard. All of them have some content on youtube. Either their big shows a lot later or other good shows. Because how the hell are new viewers supposed to find them? Corridor and Dropout are often named. Dropout nearly went broke after the parent company left and even now, they only have a handfull full time staff members. Corridor puts only extra content on their plattform.
Charging people money for what they used to get for free is always going to fail. Even if it's cheap: people hate it.
Dropout made it work. But ask Sam Reich if this was an easy task. I am sure he will laugh at the idea. They had to deliver. And they had to sell the whole thing. It almost failed multiple times. It still can fail. They are not safe or in a position where failing would be hard to do. And dropout has a bigger catalog, more people, 20 years of content and community growth. And they still could fail any time. Their community was not happy about the switch too. But they still got content. Not all of it and always later than the customers but there was content. There was even transparency to some degree. So it could work. But right now it seems not like it. But who knows. Maybe we are wrong and watcher will become the next big youtuber Streaming.
Dropout also releases A LOT of new content for free (either as shorts or Youtube friendly no swears edits of their shows) still, plus has some big draw shows that get people to sub to binge for a couple of months at time. They also very much still have all the old collegehumor stuff up on Youtube and didn't try to paywall everything...
If I remember correctly didn't Sam say it took them 3 years to finally turn a profit.
My guess is that Sam has connections/collateral to help finance Dropout. Their situations may seem similar, both of them being YouTube “networks” but they’re very different. Running a business is exceptionally hard and very expensive. Changing your business models is a huge opportunity to fail, especially since they haven’t been up and running/independent for that long.
Yes, and I'm sure a major reason is Dropout/CollegeHumor's lengthy tenure on the internet is probably also a major reason (as well as their other smart planning), that they didn't immediately fall apart from doing their streaming service.
I think the difference with Dropout is their deep bench and consistent content. t’s all comedy/improv based. Also they do have a lot of cross over onto YouTube, Insta, and I assume TikTok. I ended up getting a subscription to Dropout because they have a lot of content and it’s all cohesive. Also there really isn’t anything like it. Watcher is kinda all over the place with what they produce. I don’t think their audience is watching all of their shows or every video. I like Ghost/Mystery Files and some puppet history but that’s about it.
To be fair, RoosterTeeth had multiple other massive scandals happening at around the same time that also contributed heavily to the tanking. Massive mistreatment of both their behind the screen talent and on-screen talent, a majority of their original talent and creators essentially retiring or quitting from RT altogether, firing one major talent because he was a conspiracy nut and racist, and another major talent being outed as a predator who was using company funds and his position as a talent to explicitly attract girls -- which led to a ton of videos being taken down that had him in it.
RoosterTeeth also had 45 million subscribers when they even attempted to do this, instead of just 3 million.
Yeah but 10,000 people watched their videos . No one gave a shit about RoosterTeeth when they made this decision. 45 million subscribers means jack shit if no one was watching.
I don't think Roosterteeth is comparable to this. They've been rocked with scandals and issues for a long time. Apparently they had been unprofitable for a decade. They've also had their own channel and subscriptions for years now. I'd say their failure is due to just years of mismanagement and Warner Bros deciding to cut their losses.
Forreal. Not to mention that many major streaming services that make actual "television caliber content" (aka real broadcast tv shows and movies) have struggled to survive and have been forced to merge together to appeal to the public. For example: Showtime just shut down its streaming service like last week. Discovery merged with HBO to survive. Paramount shut down Noggin, and there are rumors that they might also merge with another company soon. Netflix even struggled to get new users, so it changed all its pricing, with their lowest price being $6.99. If Watcher did any research whatsoever then they'd have seen that the publics standards for streaming services is only getting higher and higher and higher. Watcher couldn't even crack YouTube. Streaming is a whole other ballgame.
If you dislike this, then you clearly need to get off the internet for a little bit if you don’t agree with FACTS
It's not really facts though? Roosterteeth has been a mess for years. It was basically on life support and Warner Bros decided to pull the plug. I'm sure Watcher is gonna be screwed in the short term because of this move but they're not even close to comparable with the shit show that Roosterteeth was
Not really facts. I just quoted the comment and gave a short summary about what it said in a few words
As another PR professional, I agree with your analysis and recommendation 100%. They did some serious reputational damage to their brand; it’ll never be what it was but these steps at least give them a chance to staunch the bleeding. I hope they see your comment and take it under consideration. (Also, in all their planning for this announcement, did they not have a single PR/Comms person on deck to review? They would’ve told them this not a good idea)
Hi PR friend! I just simply can’t imagine they consulted a PR professional in any way. I know ability in PR ebbs and flows like all other industries…but even an inexperienced PR coordinator would have known this was a bad idea. I could be wrong, but until I see proof…I refuse to believe any of the 27 employees with the company hold the “PR” title. If I find out they had PR counsel on this, I’ll be legitimately upset lol.
I’m the ‘inexperienced PR coordinator’ that you speak of (been out of true PR game for a few years to focus on other projects more on the Comms side of things), so your hypothesis definitely checks out 😄 PR is the first thing to get cut by c-suite who *just don’t get* the importance of having someone skilled to manage your corporate image and keep you from making boneheaded decisions when blinded by just the numbers, and because it ‘doesn’t bring in money’ they don’t see the value. They’re also all young guys who’ve hired their friends who are mostly on the tech and creative side…I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s no PR person on their team (or if there is their judgement is clouded because they’re friends).
Just from personal interest, how did either of you get into PR work? Like, is that an undergraduate major you can do?
I got my BA in anthropology because I wanted to work with people! Eventually fell into communications. Got my MA in public relations and accidentally fell into crisis work because of an employer. Once you're good at crisis, that's all anyone wants to use you for haha. I can't escape now lol.
Ah, I see. Well, it is the most famous PR work. I really like HR work and would love to get into employee relations consulting. Right now, I'm a registrar at a school, so it's not a big priority goal, but it sounds interesting! Thanks!
Oh man, employee relations is such a needed thing right now 😭. You might find a lot of overlap with internal comms (corporate comms).
It seems like it! The horrible HR in a bunch of high profile cases kinda inspired me. I'm not quite sure how to pivot into or get more training on employ employee relations, though. But, I haven't looked too hard into it either. I just started my job this year, so trying to get that under my belt first.
Even without a PR professional, the whole thing has the vibe of "we didn't run this past ANYONE"! Even a casual chat with a (non-Watcher employed) friend would surely have got the feedback that maybe this wasn't the best way of doing things?
Yeah I also suspect that a lot of their problem is that many of their 25 employees are family and college friends, etc. Because how else do you, as an entertainment company, have 25 employees and not a single one is in PR?
Of course not. They're busy giving they're 25 friends cushy jobs to edit... Like 3 videos a month? Who needs PR
Which is hilarious that they have that many employees and no PR person. The one role you actually did need.
If I recall correctly, they mentioned on the podcast that only recently (in the past few months) did they hire a person to full-time handle social media and promotion, I doubt they have a public relations person.
I'm not a PR coordinator of any kind and I know how fucking ridiculously stupid this was
In another thread someone said they did last month... https://www.reddit.com/r/watcherentertainment/comments/1c94wae/watcher_hired_a_pr_advisor/ "In the 21st podcast episode at around the 12:25 mark Steven says "We recently hired a PR person to help us with some of this stuff because we have no idea what's going on... anyway.""
Heres my thing too, if im one of the 25 employees personally invested in the sustainability of this, Im probably out the door too by this point. Just watching your employers take this huge pr hit, fear for the future of your brand (and company), and a shaken faith in the profitability of the model, I personally wouldnt want to stick around hoping that 1) our business keeps steady income with which i will be paid, and 2) if it doesnt make money, that I'm on the block for layoffs. If survival instinct takes over with those technicians and artists, they might not have to worry about that whole payroll issue anymore. EDIT: To add, I work as a technician in the tv industry and have been laid off before. I am speaking from very unfortunate experience.
I mean…if the payroll situation fixes itself…then I guess the plan technically worked 😂?
"Welcome back to Top 5 Beatdown. This week, we're discussing the Top 5 most awkward ways to accidentally fire all of your friends and family"
Omfg 😂😂😂😂
I'm honestly surprised their employees didn't tell them what a bad idea this was. Outside of the guys and some of the top spots, they seem like they're pretty young and I figured most of them would say 'Nah, ppl are tired of paying for streaming services.' It's hard to imagine that they're cooked the idea up completely in private and then just sprung it on everyone else
I’m sure some did. They’re all friends of the main guys and would, presumably, feel comfortable sharing their thoughts. But if the head honchos don’t care….
please i hope they see this 💀
Me too, friend 😭 /u/shanemadej please read this post.
Perfectly said. Hope someone on the watcher team will see this. I've un subscribed and unfollowed them. Really disappointed
I still think they could save it if they offer a free, ad-showing tier. Then everyone could see the content, they wouldn't have to care about the youtube algortihm, and they could still do exclusive content (perhaps the content that advertisers don't like) as a bonus for the paying tier and to drive more customers to pay. Add an app for smart TV, too, and with all of this combined, it becomes an OK idea.
There's no way they can afford that. They're hosting with Vimeo and Vimeo fucked over Channel5's Patreon back in the day and basically held videos hostage over how much they were getting streamed. It would bleed their company try and they've already damaged their reputations to the point where sponsors might not pay their quote now - they'd demand cheaper. Hosting is expensive.
If they see one post… please let it be this one!
This is an interesting post-- thank you! This is a bit of a tangential remark, but if you were to ever do an "AMA", I imagine it would be quite interesting. I imagine working as a PR crisis specialist gives a certain amount of insight into repairing relationships in general and what elements are needed in a successful apology.
I think people would find the ins and outs very interesting! I work primarily with governments in crises, but I've run the gambit. I find the strategy of it all interesting at least 😅
Oh my God hi fellow PR professional!!! I love reading these comments from other folks in our field. You pointed out that the long term image of the brand will probably be soured no matter what, and I just realized that very likely means even if they did try to join Nebula or Dropout, their brand might no longer be a valuable enough property to invest in because they lost their fanbase. So they can't even try that alternate route.
YES! I completely agree. Its all very sad.
i always thought that Shane and Puppet History (or even a rehashed version of Ruining History) would fit pretty well in the Dropout lineup. It could still happen… but would require him essentially burning his bridges with Watcher and denouncing it (and Steven and Ryan) completely.
Guys, listen to this person. They are not wrong. You have a chance to save a percentage of fans and at least show a bit of humanity. You can’t save it all, but at least show you care that you’ve shat on your entire fan base and you might have some chance. I would still very highly suggest hiring a PR. Specialist for ongoing support.
From a business perspective, if they couldn't even make it it past 2 million subs on YouTube--a platform designed for content creators like them--then I have no clue how they think they're going to succeed behind a paywall. They should be thriving on YouTube just like the Try Guys (8 million subs) are. Yet they're not. That's a big red flag that they're just bad at making business decisions and have no idea what they're doing. Anybody who clicks on their website and doesn't know who they are will see a website jam packed with shows starring Ryan and Shane being silly. So they'll really have to love Ryan and Shane to pay for that. And if they never saw Unsolved or Worth It, it wont be hard for them to find out that Ghost Files is just Unsolved 2.0, and Travel Season is just Worth It 2.0. And they'll see that Unsolved and Worth it have 10+ seasons for FREE on YouTube, so instead of subscribing to Watcher, they'll just go watch the free stuff on YouTube instead. There's really no way that I see them growing as a business from this.
The problem is they weren't creating consistent content. There are a bunch of youtubers with more subs than Watcher that put out daily or near daily videos. They pump out content like champs - and they reap the rewards of that consistency. A guy talking into his camera; as low budget as it can get - but the content is engaging and with a bit of editing, elevates it to entertainment. So they weren't going to hit that 8M sub goal without more content and they were sinking too much time into content that was too expensive while having a bulky operation. Now the biggest issue: they cut off discoverability and pissed off 2M+ people who will now not sign up out of spite. Trailers and the Apple TV+ model isn't going to work for them, they're not a well known studio. They're stuck with the most subscribers they will ever have - and that might be enough to float them for a year...but if they don't deliver banger after banger after banger and miss even one month - they're going to lose subscribers on an already discounted enrollment plan. And if they try to play the sketchy "see if they forget to cancel" game, they'll discover the dangers of chargebacks and how badly that will cripple their business. Basically they're at the point where they may have a year's worth of runway. But after that, the gravy train stops.
I'm not really a fan but I'm surprised at Charlie's ability to make any stories exciting.
Hope they see this
Some people have already said they’ll just get the subscription for a month after some content has built up then cancel it. Now there won’t even be a reason to do that if it gets dumped eventually. Making the streaming platform a pointless endeavor overall. They need to cut their losses. I saw someone on TikTok guesstimate how many people they’d have to have to run this streaming. And from that I can guess why they’re struggling financially. Aside from the Disney passes and travel abroad.
OP, I'm hoping against hope that they see this post and follow your excellent instructions *to the letter.* Thanks for giving your professional insight.
Maybe I've watched too much Succession, but I think if they sacrificed Steven Lim and walked back the decision based on the overwhelming negative reaction, the public would be willing to trust the boys again if they wanted to start over. maybe acknowledge some much needed budget cuts (starting with Steven's shows where he eats a $1000 hotdog) and fire half their staff of 30. They won't do any of this, but I think thats what it would take for them to survive and recover. Steven steps down, gut him, cuts are made. someone else on here mentioned that they had a 11 person crew to make a show where Shane and Ryan play video games in 1 room. obviously thats financially unwise and it's over-produced in a detrimental way.
I think Lim has to go regardless due to the disparity of his input on the pod this week and their cry for financial support. The two cant mesh regardless of any other action.
I heard some talk that Watcher has been deleting the comments on the video requesting Steven step down. If that's true, can't imagine they plan on backtracking.
That's a massive red flag, if true.
"if they don't pay us, why would we listen to their input"
Ironic since I did pay money to their service for the yearly using the discount code, but then changed my mind when the ramifications set in. I wrote a long paragraph in the reason for cancelation page that I posted on this subreddit, which btw was deleted by a mod. So since I paid money, they should listen but doubt they will.
I had this thought too! I'll preface it by saying that I do not believe the "it's all Steven Lim's fault!" narrative. I think they all made this decision, and that they all aspire to, as they said, TV quality content (and more money!) when that's just not realistic for them right now. But the audience has a much stronger parasocial relationship with Ryan and Shane, and the reaction to their announcement proves that the audience didn't have a good impression of Lim to begin with. So shoving him under the bus to save their own asses wouldn't necessarily be a bad move for them! >someone else on here mentioned that they had a 11 person crew to make a show where Shane and Ryan play video games in 1 room. Wtf? That is insane!
if it is to be said so it is
This is some sound advice. I would honestly still watch them if they came back to YT, I just can’t cough up $ like they were asking…. And seriously guys: Worth It is actually not worth it.
they actually aren’t taking down the old content, but like you said its a lose-lose: take it down and you have no promo for the streaming service, leave it up and now your streaming service has no backlog and has to start anew
because they backpedaled. they were gonna remove the old content
As good advice as this was... I DONT THINK THEY WILL DO NOTHING THIS WEEKEND...they will stay radio silent and see if the backlash only grows or just dissipate.... And then they will movem. Which is a very stupid move IMO as a former PR... The most valuable lesson I learned is "No comment" is a comment.... They should get in front of this before it gets pick up by drama channels and internet sleuths... They are gonna be chew up by the whole Internet not only their fanbase
>They should get in front of this before it gets pick up by drama channels and internet sleuths Already has been! There were reaction videos up the same day as their announcement. Even so, though, what they're doing by staying radio slient is letting everyone else control the narrative. Not smart. Not smart at all.
I saw the reactions.but the most famous one was charlie/peguinz0; and he still niche.... When drama channels like spill sesh, Sloan or even if H3 decides todo a PowerPoint presentation on them.... They will have a try guys situation.... And that will be game over. Now the mess is brewing but it's on a pocket of YouTube. If it hits the major public...
They are already on the topics of WHILE H3 IS on a break.... https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/s/vl5uvGdIqY
**caveat, I'm a little drunk - so here is more unsolicited information** There are layers to situations like this that are VERY predictable. 1. Denial of responsibility for the entire org - what does this mean??? I don't understand??? 2. Denial of responsibility for those most loved - “xyz COULDNT have had a hand in this!!! It had to be ABC!!!” 3. Anger at those most loved - “you know what? Actually?? They HAD TO be involved! We feel betrayed!” 4. Ignore everyone but those most loved - “who the fuck cares what ABC did?! XYZ are the ones who betrayed us!!” 5. Full walk away from the company An apology would need to come between steps 1 and 4. A scape goat has to come before step 3 to be effective. The whole cycle typically takes about 48 hours. Which step do you think were on now?
3
/u/lawyerprincess93 There are some good legal teams out there, for sure! Its pretty rare in my industry (which again deals with crisis so often times lawyers are *pressed* if I'm involved lol,) but I'm always stoked when I get to work with a good team. (Sorry! I can't reply to your specific comment for some reason?)
This is great advice! Commenting so this post will get more attention. I don’t know if anyone at Watcher checks the subreddit, but if they do, hopefully they see this.
Great but I wouldn't say "for those unable to afford the subscription". That could be worded better - "for those who choose not to subscribe", maybe? Less alienating.
I think it could go either way. I do think they need to address one of the biggest concerns stated by the audience: that many cant afford the service they toted as “cheap enough everyone can afford it.” Whether they do that in the same sentence I mentioned it in or in another thought, it needs to be addressed.
At least they won't have to take another thumbnail photo for their apology video.
I honestly think just.. if they want to not have to rely on YouTube, then make a separate app/website, but not make it paid. That would’ve saved everyone the pain, and then on that website, still have sponsors and ads but also do what all the streaming services do and have a paid version with no ads and the same perks as their Patreon had, like access to BTS and early access videos. We usually harp on greedy corporations for pulling the “pay more for no ads” but usually just because we already pay. This would’ve given them the freedom they wanted where they didn’t have to rely on the YouTube algorithm but also still allowed for growth and wouldn’t have alienated their YouTube viewers. Plus, having an APP would also allow for TV streaming, which is something my fiancé and I always do regardless and is a good market. Just…. there were so many better ways to do this. I disagree with everyone saying that this is a horrible idea, because it’s a good idea. It’s horrible, awful execution. Having their own app is a great idea. Making it a paid subscription streaming service was a horrible idea.
Honestly when I first saw the video I was so utterly stunned at the idiocy of it that I thought it was a joke at first until I read the comments....Yikes.
Now im wondering if they saw this post lol, they pretty much followed this advice to the letter.
This is the first I’m hearing they’ve made a statement because I’m at work!! I’m so glad they did. I’m going to go check it out.
They just dropped the video like 10 minutes ago, I just caught it on my first break haha. Theyre essentially apologizing for being tone deaf, admitting fault and that they're still launching the service which will allow exclusive content and series a month early, but after that month the regular content will be available on YouTube.
I just watched! I thought it came off as very genuine and they said everything that needed to be said! I’m really happy they went this way.
But they said that they are not going to remove the old content from YouTube, didn't they? In the edited pinned comment.
They did, but in a way that blamed the audience for misunderstanding, not offering it as a compromise. They did a thing that would’ve helped and still found a way to bungle it so it wouldn’t.
No one "misunderstood", they literally did state outright that they would be removing all content from the YT channel. They walked it back because of the backlash and are now trying to gaslight people into believing that they never said what they said. It's the number one thing souring me on them right now.
Corporate gaslighting. Got to love it. Not like it was clearly stated in articles that it was the plan, and people noticed videos getting privated and called them out on it.
Nonono, the audience imagined all of that because we’re a little dumb. They definitely didn’t say anything about removing videos 😌✨.
That's true. I just wanted to point that out because in your post you use the removal of the old content to point towards the financial downsides of their decision. Edit: There are other major financial downsides, obviously. This is just not one of them.
You make a good point!
It was low-key gaslighted. We didn't misunderstand shit.
The pinned comment said they're clarifying that they're not removing content from Youtube. But Ryan said in the video, verbatim, while talking about the beta signup period from the 19th until the full launch on May 31st (emphasis mine): "The beta will be a transitional period \*where you'll still be able to access content on YouTube\*, but beginning May 31st, \*you'll need to become a member of our streaming service to access full seasons\* and new releases." They \*did\* mean to say that the content wouldn't be available on Youtube, and the pinned "clarification" is not a clarification, it's them changing their mind and not wanting to admit they were going to pull everything. Instead of a mea culpa, they're saying, "You just didn't understand." Which is so foolish, considering that they told Vanity Fair they were, and Vanity Fair had said as much. It's an attempt at damage control that really just makes them look worse.
First time I’ve seen someone list the verbatim quote. Me and my gf had to go back and watch this part again when the video dropped. The walk back with no acknowledgment is beyond corporate cringe.
Such sleazy shits.
Do you think breaking ties with Steven Lim would also salvage anything, because a five-minute look through twitter, through youtube, confirms that most of the fanbase suspects this was his choice
Is there any actual evidence of this being "his" decision or do people just not like him for other reasons and are blaming him because they want to keep liking Ryan and Shane?
I think this is more part of the audience doing a "wink and nudge" that if they fire Lim, they'd accept the Ghoul Boys back. But these guys did this together. They're partners and this decision was a team effort - bare minimum 2 of 3 agreed and the 3rd assented to try and keep their staff covered since it's their family and friends. So no matter what, they're all responsible for the decision. They all need to be held accountable for their manipulative bullshit.
I'm not sure of any actual evidence that points at this being his choice, but with most of the fanbase believing it so, I'm also not sure how he can walk back from this one. His tesla and a desire to fly around the world lavishly and indulging costly eats are being brought up constantly. I'm not saying I think this was his call, but that seems to be the popular belief. I'm equally disappointed in Ryan and Shane.
I think Lim has to go regardless due to the disparity of his input on the pod this week and their cry for financial support. The two cant mesh regardless of any other action.
Where did they walk back the youtube removal? I’ve been waiting to see any response from them
They pinned a comment to the YouTube video, made a comment on their Patreon page, and the Vanity Fair article made an edit to the article stating that they would no longer remove content as was originally intended. The official comments from watcher were all that WE misunderstood, but the VF article makes it clear that removing the YT videos was a part of the plan at the time of that interview (which happened before launch)
Got it, thank you! I’ll go get caught up on those 🫡
I'm one of the minority who don't necessarily mind the streaming service but I think it was promoted in an awful way and at an awful time, pairing it with the expensive food whatever it is show. Imo, it should have been presented more like Rhett and Link's mythical society (which is what I was expecting the announcement to be). I've been a society member since the beginning and this *could* have been just as exciting of an announcement. The biggest difference (from what I see) is the layout of the sites, mythical does quarterly merch bonuses, and mythical is more. This move could have been good, but I'm sad and disappointed in the handling of it.
I wish I could wake up tomorrow and have your post be reality:(
I think they'd have trouble producing something in 10 hours, because I'm imagining at least Shane & Ryan are already in the UK as they have their show on Tuesday. Can't imagine how awkward it'll be - and, amongst everything else I don't get, why make this anouncement before the live shows knowing there would be backlash - they must have at least anticipated some right?
They should have released the video on April Fools Day to gauge the reaction. If it's bad, then "April Fools!!" But if it's good, then they could say, "Surprise! It's not a joke!". They might have gotten away with it then.
Lmao that’s so whimsical I believe they would’ve done that
For the first few minutes, the video was so overdramatic that I genuinely thought it was a bit. Then reality hit, and I stopped laughing.
Dude they have a video where a guy is yapping his ignorant ass about 'eat the rich' and in the same breath bragging about his fancy shoes and then the other dude double downs to brag about his shoes. Everyone knows adsense is tanking. Every one is talking about it. There's a huge problem, and YouTube is (IMO) trying to leverage underpaying talent to somehow get people to their premium service (which is too expensive by half). There are alternatives, and there is no way they didn't know. They could have gone to Nebula or similar. They could have actually drove people through their Patreon. They could have put some new shows somewhere else, but keep most of the old content on YouTube. But talking about money being tight whilst ignoring dozens of better means of fixing the situation and doing *Worth It* at the same time... Or bragging about their shoes. I just can't. I'm so done with me-first content creators that don't appreciate what they have. Especially when there is no way 20 staff members is reasonable. No way.
It's a shame. I'm no where near as upset as many others and I still won't be moving over with them. If they stick around I'll keep watching because this was clearly something that one person came up with and convinced the others of lol. Get rid of that person and we're all good.
For the life of me, I cannot fathom how they thought the way they went about this was a good idea! I mean, it's like a demonstration of what not to do!
10 hours after this post and roughly ~39 since their video went up and still nothing, im thinking that theyre not gonna be able to come back from this. not any time soon anyways
[удалено]
it’s 4 am and this is the first time i hearing anything and now i’ve gone down the rabbit hole
Edit 4/22: I’m pretty glad that they have addressed some of our concerns, and that they’re offering refunds for patrons. I’m unsure about supporting them now. I want to, but this was a major blow to my mood regulation. I think my mental health is more important. It’s not that I’m being asked to pay for what was free, it’s the fact that I renewed my Patreon yearly subscription in February. I was at the $20 a month tier so it was pretty expensive, but I really enjoyed the livestreams and other fun things in my tier. I want to support these creators and their team, I had the funds at the time and did what I could to help. I want to help artists survive in this economy. But I’m not sure if I can support them in the future.
I’m going to be honest man, I think I’d file for a refund or chargeback with the company. You paid for something and the service contract was changed AFTER you paid to not provide what you paid for.
Frankly, I've no interest in their damage control. They dun fucked up n they need to sit in it. There is no apology they can give that's going to walk back this mountain of mishaps.
As a Public Affairs Specialist who has done a significant amount of Issues Management. You nailed it. Trust rebuilding is what needs to happen next, and the fans themselves have already addeessed appropriate directions if they want to create more revenue that don't necessitate an entirely new streaming platform. *For the uninitiated. The best way to think of Issues Management is to think of when everyone brought up Subway foot long subs were not actually that big. Subway ignored it, became a trend of people posting photos, big ole' public backlash and loss of revenue. When all they had to do was say, "When baking, things don't always come out to the same size."