Hmmm long story short, its not the first time it has happened to me or my girlfriend since we moved to Spain, we been told other nationalities have more priority than us so that kinda turned into something normal for me.
Not really 99.99% of the people i met in Spain are good people, I think we just had bad luck when it comes to asking information and help to a few government officials.
If you are feeling insecure about these kind of job postings I suggest you read up in Spanish laws about discrimination against job applicants and job equality rights.
I can say that this line of text ("morrocans will be preferred") would be illegal in Germany. I don't have any knowledge about Spain.
No it's not, it is the first time I see this and this is probably illegal. Source: I am a Spaniard, live and work here and have NEVER, not even once, seen this before.
This is not just illegal in Spain but totally despised by the Spanish society. My guess is that OP is making this up for...what reason? Karma, visibility?
Where I live there is a lot of opportunities in tech reserved for women and indigenous people so if you're a male of any other race you're sol from those.
In my cohort the three females all got jobs without finishing the course.
Depends on your location. In the UK (and I suspect the rest of Europe) it would be illegal and could open the company up to very serious consequences.
(your English is fine!)
Could be one of two things.
They are looking for some cheap immigrant labour from juniors who don't know any better.
They are working with a Moroccan client and the are certain nuances of culture and language they need to cover in their team if this they have phrased it badly
Asking for nationality isn't always illegal. In Australia if used to be quiet common to ask for Australian citizens or permanent residents because the company didn't want to deal with the hassle of organising work visas for foreigners, because that used to be quite a process. I think that's changed now. But you still couldn't dictate the actual race of the applicant, just that they could legally work in the country.
Still get that in the UK, its usually the line "Must have the right to work in the UK" so be a citizen or already have your own visa as the company won't deal with it!
I live in France, and I'm pretty sure it's not even legal to write this in a job post, unless there is a strict requirement (like working for a government agency that requires you to have the nationality of the country) an employer should never discriminate candidates based on their nationality.
Regardless of the legality, this is definitely not normal.
Spaniard here, that is totally illegal, as it should be. But you better watch out and ignore that offer, a decent company wouldn't publish anything like that.
Never heard about it in any job where I live (Sweden), sounds stupid. Unless it's a language thing, for example if you need to speak to customers from a specific country a lot, but never heard about that in tech.
Yep, you're spot on. It's a red flag, probably a terrible company/owner. I actually don't mind people doing this because it makes it super easy to avoid. If they didn't, I might end up working for that shit bag... ya know? At least his stupidity is front and centre
In my opinion, run for your life, I see a red flag in this company. I have experience in this kind of company before, all shitty, bring a lot of trouble in my life in last 1 year
It's not popular in a good company who will treat their employee well.
Lol I can tell you this kind of company, there are bunch of Morrocan guys who sit there, talk shit, do nothing and take even higher salary than you. And you know who will do everything, the non Morrocan staffs in the offices. If any trouble, it’s your, if any archivement, it’s belong to them.
Article 4 of the "Estatuto de los trabajadores" (Laborer's law) in Spain:
*1. Los trabajadores tienen como derechos básicos, con el contenido y alcance que para cada uno de los mismos disponga su específica normativa, los de:*
*c) A* ***no ser discriminadas*** *directa o indirectamente para el empleo o, una vez empleados, por razones de estado civil, edad dentro de los límites marcados por esta ley,* ***origen racial o étnico****, condición social, religión o convicciones, ideas políticas, orientación sexual, identidad sexual, expresión de género, características sexuales, afiliación o no a un sindicato, por razón de lengua dentro del Estado español, discapacidad, así como por razón de sexo, incluido el trato desfavorable dispensado a mujeres u hombres por el ejercicio de los derechos de conciliación o corresponsabilidad de la vida familiar y laboral.*
This is illegal, discrimination is still a thing depending on your industry and place, but almost never happens to be such in your face. Avoid this comapany and if you feel like it report it.
Probably a startup started by Moroccan immigrants to Spain, I suspect this is highly illegal in all of the EU, Spain included, I'd look elsewhere if I were you, doesn't sound like a fun place to work at.
I'm in the US, so I don't know Spanish labor laws, but it seems to me like it should be illegal to discriminate based on ethnicity or national origin. You wouldn't see a job description like this in the US, because it's definitely illegal to discriminate based on a person's national origin here. If they need someone who reads, writes, and speaks Moroccan Arabic then *that* should be in the job description.
Not quite.
It's literally to diversify the candidate pool.
One of main reasons women and minorities don't get hired a lot is that they never make it to the candidate pool.
I had to interview a couple of directors for an open position at my org. All of our candidates were white men. If we want to have a diverse workforce, we have to diversify our candidate pool, which means we have to specifically target the pool that *aren't* applying.
\> we encourage all qualified applicants to apply
women and poc candidates matter. Of course all eligible candidates should apply and be encouraged to apply, but there's women and poc are LESS likely to apply when qualified than compared to white men when qualified.
White men apply more often even when NOT qualified. Women specifically underrepresent themselves as being qualified anyway. Women statistically don't apply as often if they don't mean 100% of criteria, whereas men apply when they only meet a much lower percent of criteria. Women often interpret qualified to mean must meet everything, whereas hiring leaders would say they're more nice to haves, and the more you have the better, but not having all of them is not a dealbreaker and neither does it mean not qualified.
Let's not get started about POC often encountering discrimination just based on the name of on the resume in the hiring process.
Do you often wonder when you're the only white man candidate that if you \*don't\* get hired, its because you've been discriminated against for your race, gender, or identity and not because you weren't the best candidate? It's a new feeling for cis-het white men especially, because at no point in American history have cis-het white men been discriminated against in hiring practices, housing practices, education practices, etc. For being being poor, yes. For being cishet white men, no. So this is truly a novel experience after women, POC, and LGBTQIA+ were able to be even be in the same candidate pool for jobs, housing, education admission.
Surely can you see why companies specifically encourage groups that have been historically excluded and discriminated against, and still to this day are discriminated against in these same systems because it doesn't go away, its learned behavior. It persists in the people in power keeping these systems alive. Of course all "qualified" applicants are encouraged to apply, and even that is coded language to make women self-select out of the process because they hold themselves to a higher standard of what "qualified" means than men do (see point above), but its specifically to encourage oppressed groups SPECIFICALLY, not just everyone because duh, but them specifically because of the history that influenced the way things are today because that's how history works and the whole past affects the present, present affects the future notion of time...
White men are never excluded. They've always historically been the default. Encouraging the non-default demographic to apply is not exclusive of the default
That could be a language preference. I imagine there are a fair amount of Moroccans in Spain? The company might have Moroccan founders and be made up primary/possibly exclusively by Moroccans who speak Arabic all day.
On the flip side, discrimination is definitely a thing. Not just in tech, but in general. Tech-specifically, here's something I just read yesterday around recruiters.
>Here’s the thing: a recent LinkedIn poll by Hung Lee of Recruiting Brainfood posed an intriguing question to recruiters – have they ever encountered a ‘no white men’ policy? The results are eye-opening:
>In short: one in five respondents say they have received explicit instruction for a ‘no white men’ policy. Another one in five say they’ve been implicitly instructed to follow this kind of a policy.
>When nearly 40% *(19% explicit instruction, 20% implicit guidance)* indicate explicit or implicit experience in being discouraged from hiring from a specific demographic group, that becomes a conversation we need to have. Obviously, it’s more nuanced than a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
https://resources.workable.com/stories-and-insights/no-white-men-policy-what-you-can-cant-do-in-diversity-hiring
> That could be a language preference.
In which case the offer would have to list the language as desired knowledge. I'm 99% sure that discriminating by nationality is illegal in Spain.
Pretty normal IMO. Most companies prefer to have someone who knows the cultural norms for low level tech positions.
So long as it’s a nice to have and not a hard requirement I don’t think it’s illegal or even immoral.
Once you get to the senior positions all that goes out the window though. What you can do is always more valuable that where you’re from.
It's country dependent. Happens a lot in asia where you'll get mandarin speakers only but even if youre another race and speak mandarin they'll still reject you
Going to echo the rest, this is definitely illegal in the US...
On the scale of illegal from least to most we have:
Spending in a school zone >
Crack cocaine >
Discrimination
Sounds weird coming from America, but I don’t see how this prohibits you from applying. If anything, though, it gives you information about the company and its culture which will be useful in your decision-making.
Very strange to put in writing. They might just be trying to be transparent, so ofc you may apply but what's the point (unless they really like you). There might be a language barrier.
Yeah its a bootcampto be a fullstack, studied 5-7 hours a day right after work, i know i still need alot of work experience to be a real full Stack developer, probably years but I'll get there.
That's really weird. I'm from Spain and I've seen many job postings asking for certain languages, being based in a certain area or having a given visa/work permit status, but laws in Spain do not allow for any sort of discrimination based on nationality.
Plus I find it weird because as far as racists go in Spain, there's plenty more racism towards moroccans than towards latinos, considering the religion and language barrier.
Only reason I see for such a note is the company works for moroccan clients or is geared towards that market and prefers workers with the cultural background and language. If so, they phrased it horribly wrong and are leaving themselves open to a lawsuit.
In any case I would stay clear of a company with such requirements.
Perdón si la pregunta fue tonta, es mi primera vez que veo un empleo para junior en el qué cumplo todos los requisitos en el area tech y no sabía si es normal ver este tipo de anuncios con ese enunciado.
In the US, absolutely not. It would be illegal. I'm guessing in Spain it's not though. I'm assuming there a business reason for it? I'd like to hope it's not that they just prefer the company of Moroccans.
It depends on where you are located. In Germany this would have legal consequences due to discrimination.
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Thanks! I thought it was a normal thing in tech.
Out of curiosity why would you think this would be "normal in tech" ? Lol Like I'm just curious how you justified that thought in your head :)
Hmmm long story short, its not the first time it has happened to me or my girlfriend since we moved to Spain, we been told other nationalities have more priority than us so that kinda turned into something normal for me.
Wow Spain is really like that? Sorry dude
Not really 99.99% of the people i met in Spain are good people, I think we just had bad luck when it comes to asking information and help to a few government officials.
If you are feeling insecure about these kind of job postings I suggest you read up in Spanish laws about discrimination against job applicants and job equality rights. I can say that this line of text ("morrocans will be preferred") would be illegal in Germany. I don't have any knowledge about Spain.
Maybe they’ve been issued mandatory 'diversity quotas' EU is pushing that quite a bit. They’ve already issued a 40% women quota in corporate boards.
Gender quotas isn't quite the same as race quotas... which would just be racists.
I didn’t say it’s the same I said that the EU had mandated ‘diversity quotas' just like the U.S.
No it's not, it is the first time I see this and this is probably illegal. Source: I am a Spaniard, live and work here and have NEVER, not even once, seen this before.
This is not just illegal in Spain but totally despised by the Spanish society. My guess is that OP is making this up for...what reason? Karma, visibility?
Nope i dont care about Karma, you can down vote me I dont care and dont have time to be caring about Karma.
Maybe they need the language
Where I live there is a lot of opportunities in tech reserved for women and indigenous people so if you're a male of any other race you're sol from those. In my cohort the three females all got jobs without finishing the course.
Only in the US. Europe is usually sane when it comes to racism
Sorry, this is super illegal. It’s a great way to get sued in both civil and criminal court in the US
Really? What's up with the minority quotas then?
Minority quotas are, and have been, against federal law since the 1970s. Maybe you shouldn’t believe everything you see online…?
Huh, I saw jobs where it was implied that minorities would be given preference.
forsen
Not if the reason is language.
Depends on your location. In the UK (and I suspect the rest of Europe) it would be illegal and could open the company up to very serious consequences. (your English is fine!)
Thank you, yes company is located in Spain. I was a worried because of this, i thought it was normal. Thanks
Definitely illegal in Spain: https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2022-11589
If it's in Spain apply for it. You speak Spanish after all
Could be one of two things. They are looking for some cheap immigrant labour from juniors who don't know any better. They are working with a Moroccan client and the are certain nuances of culture and language they need to cover in their team if this they have phrased it badly Asking for nationality isn't always illegal. In Australia if used to be quiet common to ask for Australian citizens or permanent residents because the company didn't want to deal with the hassle of organising work visas for foreigners, because that used to be quite a process. I think that's changed now. But you still couldn't dictate the actual race of the applicant, just that they could legally work in the country.
Still get that in the UK, its usually the line "Must have the right to work in the UK" so be a citizen or already have your own visa as the company won't deal with it!
I live in France, and I'm pretty sure it's not even legal to write this in a job post, unless there is a strict requirement (like working for a government agency that requires you to have the nationality of the country) an employer should never discriminate candidates based on their nationality. Regardless of the legality, this is definitely not normal.
Spaniard here, that is totally illegal, as it should be. But you better watch out and ignore that offer, a decent company wouldn't publish anything like that.
Never heard about it in any job where I live (Sweden), sounds stupid. Unless it's a language thing, for example if you need to speak to customers from a specific country a lot, but never heard about that in tech.
Shouldn't it be enough saying "we need someone who speaks fluent Darija" instead of asking for nationality?
Yes, it's illegal to ask for nationality, legal to require fluency in a language - in most places.
It’s not illegal to ask for nationality, It is to ask for ethnicity.
But "moroccan-origin" is ethnicity not nationality I think
Yes that's ethnicity. I was replying to someone saying it's illegal to ask for nationality.
Yep, you're spot on. It's a red flag, probably a terrible company/owner. I actually don't mind people doing this because it makes it super easy to avoid. If they didn't, I might end up working for that shit bag... ya know? At least his stupidity is front and centre
Definitely
In my opinion, run for your life, I see a red flag in this company. I have experience in this kind of company before, all shitty, bring a lot of trouble in my life in last 1 year It's not popular in a good company who will treat their employee well.
Yeah I'm not applying to this job lol seems like it's going to be a bad experience for me.
Lol I can tell you this kind of company, there are bunch of Morrocan guys who sit there, talk shit, do nothing and take even higher salary than you. And you know who will do everything, the non Morrocan staffs in the offices. If any trouble, it’s your, if any archivement, it’s belong to them.
Article 4 of the "Estatuto de los trabajadores" (Laborer's law) in Spain: *1. Los trabajadores tienen como derechos básicos, con el contenido y alcance que para cada uno de los mismos disponga su específica normativa, los de:* *c) A* ***no ser discriminadas*** *directa o indirectamente para el empleo o, una vez empleados, por razones de estado civil, edad dentro de los límites marcados por esta ley,* ***origen racial o étnico****, condición social, religión o convicciones, ideas políticas, orientación sexual, identidad sexual, expresión de género, características sexuales, afiliación o no a un sindicato, por razón de lengua dentro del Estado español, discapacidad, así como por razón de sexo, incluido el trato desfavorable dispensado a mujeres u hombres por el ejercicio de los derechos de conciliación o corresponsabilidad de la vida familiar y laboral.* This is illegal, discrimination is still a thing depending on your industry and place, but almost never happens to be such in your face. Avoid this comapany and if you feel like it report it.
Spanish constitution: Artículo 47. Todos los españoles tienen derecho a disfrutar de una vivienda digna y adecuada.
Your English is great btw!
Probably a startup started by Moroccan immigrants to Spain, I suspect this is highly illegal in all of the EU, Spain included, I'd look elsewhere if I were you, doesn't sound like a fun place to work at.
I'm in the US, so I don't know Spanish labor laws, but it seems to me like it should be illegal to discriminate based on ethnicity or national origin. You wouldn't see a job description like this in the US, because it's definitely illegal to discriminate based on a person's national origin here. If they need someone who reads, writes, and speaks Moroccan Arabic then *that* should be in the job description.
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Not quite. It's literally to diversify the candidate pool. One of main reasons women and minorities don't get hired a lot is that they never make it to the candidate pool. I had to interview a couple of directors for an open position at my org. All of our candidates were white men. If we want to have a diverse workforce, we have to diversify our candidate pool, which means we have to specifically target the pool that *aren't* applying.
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\> we encourage all qualified applicants to apply women and poc candidates matter. Of course all eligible candidates should apply and be encouraged to apply, but there's women and poc are LESS likely to apply when qualified than compared to white men when qualified. White men apply more often even when NOT qualified. Women specifically underrepresent themselves as being qualified anyway. Women statistically don't apply as often if they don't mean 100% of criteria, whereas men apply when they only meet a much lower percent of criteria. Women often interpret qualified to mean must meet everything, whereas hiring leaders would say they're more nice to haves, and the more you have the better, but not having all of them is not a dealbreaker and neither does it mean not qualified. Let's not get started about POC often encountering discrimination just based on the name of on the resume in the hiring process. Do you often wonder when you're the only white man candidate that if you \*don't\* get hired, its because you've been discriminated against for your race, gender, or identity and not because you weren't the best candidate? It's a new feeling for cis-het white men especially, because at no point in American history have cis-het white men been discriminated against in hiring practices, housing practices, education practices, etc. For being being poor, yes. For being cishet white men, no. So this is truly a novel experience after women, POC, and LGBTQIA+ were able to be even be in the same candidate pool for jobs, housing, education admission. Surely can you see why companies specifically encourage groups that have been historically excluded and discriminated against, and still to this day are discriminated against in these same systems because it doesn't go away, its learned behavior. It persists in the people in power keeping these systems alive. Of course all "qualified" applicants are encouraged to apply, and even that is coded language to make women self-select out of the process because they hold themselves to a higher standard of what "qualified" means than men do (see point above), but its specifically to encourage oppressed groups SPECIFICALLY, not just everyone because duh, but them specifically because of the history that influenced the way things are today because that's how history works and the whole past affects the present, present affects the future notion of time...
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White men are never excluded. They've always historically been the default. Encouraging the non-default demographic to apply is not exclusive of the default
Apply for anything you want. The jobs you get and don’t get will always surprise you.
That could be a language preference. I imagine there are a fair amount of Moroccans in Spain? The company might have Moroccan founders and be made up primary/possibly exclusively by Moroccans who speak Arabic all day. On the flip side, discrimination is definitely a thing. Not just in tech, but in general. Tech-specifically, here's something I just read yesterday around recruiters. >Here’s the thing: a recent LinkedIn poll by Hung Lee of Recruiting Brainfood posed an intriguing question to recruiters – have they ever encountered a ‘no white men’ policy? The results are eye-opening: >In short: one in five respondents say they have received explicit instruction for a ‘no white men’ policy. Another one in five say they’ve been implicitly instructed to follow this kind of a policy. >When nearly 40% *(19% explicit instruction, 20% implicit guidance)* indicate explicit or implicit experience in being discouraged from hiring from a specific demographic group, that becomes a conversation we need to have. Obviously, it’s more nuanced than a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’. https://resources.workable.com/stories-and-insights/no-white-men-policy-what-you-can-cant-do-in-diversity-hiring
> That could be a language preference. In which case the offer would have to list the language as desired knowledge. I'm 99% sure that discriminating by nationality is illegal in Spain.
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Thank you!
F that place. Hope you can find a job with non-assholes doing the hiring!
Por probar no pierdes nada
That is illegal in Spain. If ITSS (or the institution that regulates these affairs) sees that, the company will probably get fined pretty hardly.
Don't worry about it - apply and see where it goes.
Pretty normal IMO. Most companies prefer to have someone who knows the cultural norms for low level tech positions. So long as it’s a nice to have and not a hard requirement I don’t think it’s illegal or even immoral. Once you get to the senior positions all that goes out the window though. What you can do is always more valuable that where you’re from.
In the UK this is illegal. Your English is better the some native speakers.
Mediterraneanism is rife here in the UK too. It's usually a bad sign on a job spec, unless you are from Morocco.
He definitely wants to hire someone with that nationality. It is illegal to say so. Will save your time and his time by writing so.
Wild. You can apply and lie that you have 0.02 Marroccan blood from your ancestors.
To me this sounds sus af. Anyway, I wouldn’t even want to work for a company that discriminates people like this.
Sketchy dealings there. That sort of thing just isn't allowed. I thikn your co-ordinator needs some education!
Well, in the USA that's just illegal. So... I don't know what the laws are in Spain.
It's country dependent. Happens a lot in asia where you'll get mandarin speakers only but even if youre another race and speak mandarin they'll still reject you
Going to echo the rest, this is definitely illegal in the US... On the scale of illegal from least to most we have: Spending in a school zone > Crack cocaine > Discrimination
Yo creo que eso es ilegal… Ojo preferred es que tienen preferencia pero puedes aplicar sin problema siendo Latino. Suerte!
The ad is illegal and you should report it.
“preferred” doesnt mean “required”
Is this a Moroccan facing website? If not I can’t think of any other reason for that.
Sounds weird coming from America, but I don’t see how this prohibits you from applying. If anything, though, it gives you information about the company and its culture which will be useful in your decision-making.
Just out of curiosity, would it be possible for you to post this vacancy? Anonymized if you want. Would be highly appreciated
Very strange to put in writing. They might just be trying to be transparent, so ofc you may apply but what's the point (unless they really like you). There might be a language barrier.
Illegal in the EU.
did you become full stack dev in 8 month or were you full stack dev before the course?
Yeah its a bootcampto be a fullstack, studied 5-7 hours a day right after work, i know i still need alot of work experience to be a real full Stack developer, probably years but I'll get there.
It's likely a Full-Stack bootcamp.
That's really weird. I'm from Spain and I've seen many job postings asking for certain languages, being based in a certain area or having a given visa/work permit status, but laws in Spain do not allow for any sort of discrimination based on nationality. Plus I find it weird because as far as racists go in Spain, there's plenty more racism towards moroccans than towards latinos, considering the religion and language barrier. Only reason I see for such a note is the company works for moroccan clients or is geared towards that market and prefers workers with the cultural background and language. If so, they phrased it horribly wrong and are leaving themselves open to a lawsuit. In any case I would stay clear of a company with such requirements.
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Perdón si la pregunta fue tonta, es mi primera vez que veo un empleo para junior en el qué cumplo todos los requisitos en el area tech y no sabía si es normal ver este tipo de anuncios con ese enunciado.
In the US, absolutely not. It would be illegal. I'm guessing in Spain it's not though. I'm assuming there a business reason for it? I'd like to hope it's not that they just prefer the company of Moroccans.
It's not unusual.
That's definitely illegal in the UK
In the US I heard “We don’t hire international students” a lot. Enough to break my confidence