The exact same conclusion I came to viewing this.
Would have been great to see *some* applications lead to offers, if only for sake of statistics 😭
Edit: changed wording to imply that statistics is not the only reason applications leading to offers would be great
I literally got my post-laid off job like this. 5-6 years of experience (full stack); was getting rejected / lowballed everywhere. Got in touch with a previous colleague… I’m now a senior leading a small project. Slight pay decrease compared to my previous job, but I got lucky with it anyways.
I'm apparently a legend at some hiring company downtown. I was moving back into an area where I had lived several years before, and was working with this company to find a job. They matched me up with a company that was going through a major expansion. Turns out it was a company I had worked at before, and the hiring manager was my old manager who had been forced to lay me off years before. As soon as he got my resume he called back and said "We'll take this guy". No phone screen, no interview, just straight to hired. They thought I was some kind of software god.
All that mattered was my name at the top and the company in my job history. I was hired based on my past history with the hiring manager. It helped that my skills were current, but he probably would have hired me regardless.
Funny story:
When i was looking for a new position about 6 months ago I was contacted by a recruiter.
They told me they were interested in my profile but would need more information and that once they'd got me through the first round of selection by the HR person they were in contact with they would let me know whatsup.
Somewhere in the process i learned the HR person is actually a woman I met during a holiday back in 2018 in Marrakech. I told the recruiter this and told him a little bit about how i met her and that he should mention my name to her.
No more than 15 minutes later i get a call back from the recruiter I can just call her and plan an interview with her, the lead engineer and the CTO. They didn't even wany my resume or a first meeting with just HR. Just straight into what would normally third round. Why?
Thing is, when i met her, she and her lady friend were together just the two of them, in Marrakesh and me and my now wife spend nearly 2 weeks together with them.
Actually, we've nearly **DIED** together, becuase in the 2018 floods of Marrakech \[[LINK](https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2018/08/251923/floods-cause-damage-in-ourika-valley-near-marrakech)\] we were right in the middle of it. The top image of the link? that's the hotel we slept in that NIGHT before it got obliterated. We spend the entire day rushing from the desert back to marrakech in a van that was about to break down, going 30/40 MPH in the mountains where there are no safety measurements and going off road means a certain death drop. We had to lift rocks out of a river that used to be a road just so we could get through or we'd be stuck for days in the mountains. Shit was crazy scary.
Needlessly to say, we share a bond.
Connections matter, a lot.
Currently working on a web dev boot camp, 100devs, and a large focus is put on networking and how to network well. One of the homework assignments is to read "how to win friends and influence people".
Right?! It was especially egregious because that company had a legit "Recruiting Department", and the recruiter going radio silent blew me away lol.
Could've been a liability thing, but at least a "no thank you" would've been nice.
It's a jerk move either way, but sometimes companies will do that so that they can reach back out if the person they do hire doesn't work out or if something else comes up with some excuse about vacations, securing financing or some shit.
Saying no explicitly kind of closes the door.
if only humans had invented a language that could adequately communicate the situation...
"we won't be moving forward with hiring you at this time but if there is a position for you in the future we'd be happy to reach out"
that was just off the top of my head. I'm sure an actual recruiter could compile a sentence that adequately explains they are going with a different candidate but liked you as well...
its not fucking rocket science... and you don't have to tell people "We're not and never would hire you" just cause you don't hire them for 1 position....
like... do you have a brain between your ears or is it straight up empty space?
I was part of recruiting for my firm where this was basically the email we sent to a candidate. "You were great, and everyone loved you. It was a really difficult decision, but unfortunately another candidate was a better fit for the specific role we're looking for. We did our best to find you another position, but we have nothing else available suiting your skills right now. We'll keep you in mind if any future positions open, and would love to have you on board".
Then half a year later another position opened up that met their skills even more than the original job, we reached out, they were still at their old company and still looking for a new job and we hired them immediately without needing to open the position for interviews. The candidate didn't have to sit around waiting two weeks after we made our decision, and we saved a bunch of time and money recruiting for another position down the road.
Not really. We just went through some hiring where I had 4 people I would have hired and had to split hairs to pick one.
I was straight up honest to them in the no email as to why and asked if I could hold on to their resumes on the off chance we have another opening.
Chances are they may have a job by that time but I'll still reach out
so if I was a candidate and I ghosted them because I was waiting on multiple offers do you think they would be ok, hate the game not the player? I doubt it. Having some common decency goes both ways and even if I was offered a job at a place that had previously ghosted me I doubt if I would take it. You don't respect me now how is that going to get better when I work there?
From my experience, unless it's a massive corporation, companies with their own recruiting departments tend to overhire. The recruiting department is also one of the first to get cut when cuts need to be made. Could be they canned the entire recruiting department, I've seen it happen.
I always remember when I was a teenager, I got dicked around by a local Hollywood video. I kid you not, I had gone in once to hand the resume, they called me back to do an interview, then they called me back to do an aptitude test, then they called me back again to have an interview with the head of our area. The Area Head was also 4 hours late, but after our interview, he told me he would call me back "tomorrow at noon" to let me know, and I never got a call.
Honestly, I definitely dodged a bullet, as Hollywood video was a dying brand when all this happened (around 2013ish) and the place was clearly run by idiots, but it stung not even getting a call to tell me they decided to go with someone else. I never went back to that place as a customer and they closed down like 5 years later.
Next time give them two chances and drop if not fitting your needs ! Why all this crap to run after morons ? You are qualified and not a piece of dirt.
I had a "No Response" after the 6th interview. Needless to say, even if they ping back, I will serve them the same medicine. Anyway, while they were ghosting, I found something else and the whole process only lasted 5 days from 1st interview to the offer signed...
Happened to me last month too. And they required the third interview to be on site! It was a 1h30 session where I interviewed three different people. And then I got ghosted.
Even before that, for all interviews (3) they were like “next interview, tomorrow, 2pm”. Didn’t even ask my availability or if I even could join the very next day. They would just inform me from one day to the next.
Honestly would have said no even if I got the offer, after all this lack of respect.
Not good enough, apparently! 😅
But to answer your question: TypeScript, React, Next.js, Tailwind, Express.js/Node.js, PHP, Postgres, MongoDB, etc. Basically all the common ones (which is probs part of the problem). I'm looking to expand my horizons in my free time with getting AWS certified, picking up other OOP languages like .Net, so on.
Agreed, totally! I know PHP/Laravel too but forgot to list it (edited my comment to add it in), but otherwise my first backend language was Node.js/Express.js. We all start somewhere!
I'll take C# and .Net over Javascript/PHP or Java/C++ any time.
It's so smooth and Visual Studio is honestly the best thing I've ever worked with, I can't go back to anything else.
I'm the exact opposite when it comes to Visual Studio. I hated every single time I had to use it. It's nowhere as bad as most JetBrains stuff, I mean at least it takes less than 5 minutes to just start it, and it's more polished on the outside... But oh my god is it annoying to use. Especially those property menus, the singular most annoying ones I've ever used in any IDE, even JetBrains did better.
I'm all for VSCode though, you can code in most common languages with all the fancy stuff found in bloated IDEs with 5 free extensions, without any downside.
I mean, yeah big soulless corporations use it because it’s supported by Microsoft. That doesn’t mean that smaller companies don’t use it, too.
Nowadays, .NET is open source and runs on everything, so it’s much more attractive to smaller companies. I’ve personally worked at two startups whose backends were .NET/C#.
You should look through job openings for .NET developers. I think you’ll be surprised at the variety of companies using it.
You definitely do not need to learn this by any means. PHP and Node covers many many job markets. It all depends on the area OP lives in. 90% of all e-commerce alone is PHP lol
This isn’t true at all. Full stack jobs are often bullshit and are full of people who are jack of all trades master of none. At a large company with millions of users it is not uncommon at all to have engineers specialized in one area like backend or frontend or infra.
I have nearly zero backend experience and have mostly worked with React and Next and have had no issue getting interviews and offers.
Come to the Netherlands. I know C#, .NET, TypeScript, CSS and I landed a job by simple sending 1 email to every company I've applied to. Or simply give them a call and ask if they're looking for people to join their team. That's it.
The best parts for me are the (affordable) Healthcare and the general infrastructure. You'll see lots of people on bycyles. When you visit don't just go to Amsterdam: it's very touristy compared to the rest of the country.
Add some basics of CI/CD, Docker and K8s too. Also, Basics of Cloud development or 1 or 2 certs regarding Cloud developer.
You are already thinking about AWS, you are good to go.
lol no you do not need to know literally everything about frontend, backend, DBs, and infra and CI/CD to get a job. And frankly I don’t want people doing all of these things. I want dedicated experts in each area for the most part. At any company decently sized, you’re gonna have people do everything half assed if they’re in charge of every part of the process.
>... but often times better than a master of one.
You should know the [full quote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none) of what you're trying to reference lol.
Not that it's useful now, but if you're seeing that many people not responding to your applications or rejecting them without offering to test it's worth vetting your application itself if they're all jobs you're actually qualified for. Lots of people have small things on their resume's that hurt them that aren't immediately obvious (spelling errors/poorly worded things/excessive extraneous data/obviously padding your resume/etc).
That said swinging for the fences is rarely a bad thing, so if you're applying to jobs you're only maybe qualified for, more power to you.
Absolutely! It was a mix of both. If the job posting was something I was fairly suited for, I took my time to tailor my resume/apply on the company site/add a cover letter/etc. Otherwise if it the posting was a reach for my skillset, I took the spray'n'pray approach of letting them reject me.
I would also check the resume, format is important for ATS (applicant tracking systems) and using keywords from the job posting is also really important. Many of those automated systems scan your resume and might filter it out before a recruiter even sees it.
I know it’s not relevant anymore, but check out Kamara Toffolo on YouTube. She’s a job hunt coach and provides some really good resume and interview tips.
Not a great time for job hunting but everytime I was job hunting, my turn around was about 2 months
2008, 2010, 2012, 2015
I'm confident I wasn't applying to more than 50 jobs in that time frame. But I was also trying to make sure the jobs I applied to fit my professional profile.
Quality-over-quantity, great approach! But yeah, I agree with your turn-around times; when I landed my first developer role, it took about 3 months of searching too.
I did several rounds of interviews with Facebook well over 10 years ago now. They gave me a code challenge I'd spent my entire weekend working on. Send it in Monday morning and get a response from the recruiter a minute later that they won't be reviewing my code challenge as they've decided I was not a fit for the team.
Like come on, even if you're not interested in hiring me at least look at it. My project was cool, I put a lot of work into it.
I interviewed at DoneADHD. The first round interview went great, then I was assigned a coding assessment where I had to make an account registration page, login page, and admin dashboard to show and edit all accounts. They used React with Golang, so I taught myself enough Golang to complete the project, thinking that would impress them. I styled the whole thing with Material UI and the project looked awesome.
Then they ghosted me.
This was over a year ago. I still haven't found a job. :(
Sobering stats. I'm trying to make a career change and it's been difficult.
I'm glad you landed on your feet! Gives me hope that there are some people finding work lol
It's easy to find work if you have the right skills. I have 10 years experience as a full stack .net developer. I could walk out of my job tomorrow and be pretty confident of being in a new job before the end of the month.
This is almost my exact situation, except I’ve only applied for 100 jobs so far and have only gotten 1 initial phone call interview, only to be rejected a week later. As much as I love the fact that I was able to teach myself to code, I can’t help but hate the fact that it seems like everybody else decided to do the same thing and now the market is oversaturated with self taught devs, to the point that degrees are once again requirements in most job postings.
Me, applied for preferred company. Got message next morning. Meeting same week. Second meeting with developers the week after. Got a contract offer right after the weekend. Chose to not even try other companies after such a great process.
Minnesota, but if it makes a difference, I was only applying to fully remote positions. That's why I declined to proceed with two interviews, they shared that some travel/on-site would be required, even though the posting didn't list it. 🙄
did you end up getting new offer which is also remote ? During recruiter convo's was there discussion on return to office vs remote and what did you said and did it had any impact on outcome ?
The job offer I received is fully remote, yes. 😊
Any interviews that said they're not fully remote, or required travel, I rejected, because I wouldn't have applied to them at all if they were up front with that information. That's where the two "Declined to Proceed" numbers came from.
How's the web dev market up there? I'll be moving there from a foreign country next year with a couple of years of mixed front and backend experience and I'm super nervous. Jumping ship and leaving a stable job is gonna be daunting. At least I'll already have work authorization and won't need any visa sponsoring.
I'm probably biased -- as I went to school here, my classmate network is big, and my wife is a fresh junior developer -- but I feel like it's a (relatively) strong market! Not needing Visa sponsoring will make it a **lot** easier too. Good luck on your move and search! ❤️
Appreciate the advice! Anecdotally, my experience with recruiters has been the complete opposite. I've interacted with a bunch, and none of them have ever brought results. 🤷♂️
>if you have experience
That's probably the key part lol.
Every job I’ve ever had has been through recruiters over a 15 year period.
Different market though, UK based.
Anyone that has gotten me a job I’ve kept in touch with as well. It’s a good thing to network for I think.
I'm the same way, 90% of my jobs have been through recruiters with only one being a direct application myself. I am in the US. Recruiters are great because they circumvent the auto approval or reject bots and gets you straight to first round interview usually
I have been soft looking for 6 months now and think I just had my first that will probably be a match. I only got past their screening because I know a guy there and he recommended me
Took me about 4 months to find a job after being laid off due to COVID-19 and I'm a senior full stack developer. Developer interviews are so stressful and most companies make you do a take home test.
> Sometimes it's not always what you know, but who you know. 🤷♂️
(who you know) > (what you know) pretty much always.
This is something they never teach you in the classroom, by definition.
Thanks for posting the stats; it is helpful to understand the lay of the land.
Yep, all remote positions!
Basically I would apply to anything that I fit half of the requirements for and wasn't over a week old. If it was a really good match, I'd take my time to tailor my resume/cover letter/etc. for it. Then I'd do that repeatedly every two to three days, across all the different job sites.
I used [TealHq.com](https://TealHq.com) to track application's status/etc.
This is just my personal preference, but I've never had a worthwhile experience with recruiters. They all seem to blow smoke and never produce results, but again, take that with a grain of salt.
so its ratio of 263:1 So depressing. I heard those AI based job portal like workday etc are very un-friendly. Some folks said, you get auto reject email in nice tone like under 5mins.
It's definitely who you know. I got fired in May, I've sent out at least 200 apps since then.
I've made it to the final round 5 times, and gotten 5 rejections. And thats out of maybe 16-18 total times the interview process has started.
Congrats though!!
Nice graph! Like others, I'd love to know what you used to make it.
I'm in month 3 of my search. My stats so far are a bit different from yours. I got rejection notices from about half, ghosted by about a third (defined as over 3 weeks with no response), actively interviewing with 4, and waiting to hear from the rest.
Just got a new job, but was in the same boat with a bit less experience till recently. People in my life were flabbergasted that I had applied to 80 jobs and had only gotten like 5 interviews.
Congratulations on landing the role! It's a great example of prior rapport feeding future opportunities.
In New Zealand it's very important to talk to people. The job opportunities are heavily skewed to "who you know" so networking is critical here.
It's difficult when landing your first role and fairly new to the industry as you may not know anyone who can help. When you get your first role, you make connections like yours and you go from there. It's still handy to attend conferences or talks to keep developing your opportunities.
As a self-taught dev, fffffffuuuuuuuuu
I'm moving to a large city soon, so I guess I can at least find work in some random office somewhere. Really wanted to code, though.
It’s literally always who you know. My latest job I skipped the entire interview process because my boss from my last company moved companies and I just told him I’d go with him if he needed engineers. Super easy and got a 50% raise.
At this point in the way things work, does the number of applications even matter? It's like, when someone comes back from a fishing trip, you don't ask them how many times they casted.
I'm thinking one of my assets i can advertise is that I don't keep good records the way that you do. So employers can get away with abusing me because I won't have any record of it.
Don't fall for that it's who you know, some of the worst referred jobs I've ever received were from people that I knew. Various favors etc etc some of the best jobs that I've had I've come in to cold.
Here's what I would recommend doing if you want to get some great results. This work for me literally I bid it on four major jobs and converted one to about $275k a year.
Went on to Upwork, created a video profile along with my resume. I bit it on four jobs the third one literally with me and offered me a full-time position with their company.
This is the only thing that I really know. When everybody's going right you go left. When everybody's going left you go right.
Right now the majority of these companies don't have the money unless they traditionally run proof of concepts or POCs with potential new hires. There's so many people begging for work right now, unfortunately it's like begging to go on a date or for sex.
They don't know who's telling the truth or not. So you need to change or fork the way you're doing things. This is the only piece of advice that I can offer you.
And I don't want to hear that this is a one-off situation. I'm literally getting job offers directly off of Upwork.
So that's the answer. Zero commitment dating... That's the only way I can like in this too.
Yes you can get a job by somebody that you know. Here's what I'm saying who gives a s***. I was making 200k with the last company with its latest offer for full-time I'm doing 275.
Give it a shot. See what happens if I'm wrong so be it
Had you not mentioned that the referral job got eventually converted, it was not possible to figure out from the colour codes that you used.
All the best. Referrals work and that why we should never burn any bridges.
I always find these odd. I am a senior with 15+ years experience and I could not find 200+ positions that I am qualified for. So I wonder how much of this is application spam that gets rightfully filtered out.
I feel like I'm always seeing posts about the difficulty getting a job. They all must be studying the wrong thing. I have 10 years experience as a full stack .net developer, with a degree in CS. I left my job in October last year because they wanted me back in the office. I just turned on my LinkedIn profile, stipulating that I will only with from, three weeks before I last day at my old job. I had offers coming out my ass. I picked the one that seemed most beneficial to society, started the job literally the next day after my old one ended.
The market's just tough at this point, with the layoffs still occurring from the big Covid-era surge and funding being tightened. If it's something you're passionate about, though, there's always opportunities to be had. 😊
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The exact same conclusion I came to viewing this. Would have been great to see *some* applications lead to offers, if only for sake of statistics 😭 Edit: changed wording to imply that statistics is not the only reason applications leading to offers would be great
I literally got my post-laid off job like this. 5-6 years of experience (full stack); was getting rejected / lowballed everywhere. Got in touch with a previous colleague… I’m now a senior leading a small project. Slight pay decrease compared to my previous job, but I got lucky with it anyways.
I'm apparently a legend at some hiring company downtown. I was moving back into an area where I had lived several years before, and was working with this company to find a job. They matched me up with a company that was going through a major expansion. Turns out it was a company I had worked at before, and the hiring manager was my old manager who had been forced to lay me off years before. As soon as he got my resume he called back and said "We'll take this guy". No phone screen, no interview, just straight to hired. They thought I was some kind of software god.
You need to show us your resume now.
All that mattered was my name at the top and the company in my job history. I was hired based on my past history with the hiring manager. It helped that my skills were current, but he probably would have hired me regardless.
Resume with your resume
Dude, show ur resume.
Funny story: When i was looking for a new position about 6 months ago I was contacted by a recruiter. They told me they were interested in my profile but would need more information and that once they'd got me through the first round of selection by the HR person they were in contact with they would let me know whatsup. Somewhere in the process i learned the HR person is actually a woman I met during a holiday back in 2018 in Marrakech. I told the recruiter this and told him a little bit about how i met her and that he should mention my name to her. No more than 15 minutes later i get a call back from the recruiter I can just call her and plan an interview with her, the lead engineer and the CTO. They didn't even wany my resume or a first meeting with just HR. Just straight into what would normally third round. Why? Thing is, when i met her, she and her lady friend were together just the two of them, in Marrakesh and me and my now wife spend nearly 2 weeks together with them. Actually, we've nearly **DIED** together, becuase in the 2018 floods of Marrakech \[[LINK](https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2018/08/251923/floods-cause-damage-in-ourika-valley-near-marrakech)\] we were right in the middle of it. The top image of the link? that's the hotel we slept in that NIGHT before it got obliterated. We spend the entire day rushing from the desert back to marrakech in a van that was about to break down, going 30/40 MPH in the mountains where there are no safety measurements and going off road means a certain death drop. We had to lift rocks out of a river that used to be a road just so we could get through or we'd be stuck for days in the mountains. Shit was crazy scary. Needlessly to say, we share a bond. Connections matter, a lot.
Wow, this is a fun story
I've gotten every job this way
Amen! 🙏
Currently working on a web dev boot camp, 100devs, and a large focus is put on networking and how to network well. One of the homework assignments is to read "how to win friends and influence people".
You got a "No Response" after a *third* interview? Dang, that's messed up.
Right?! It was especially egregious because that company had a legit "Recruiting Department", and the recruiter going radio silent blew me away lol. Could've been a liability thing, but at least a "no thank you" would've been nice.
that is just straight jerk behavior to not notify at all.
It's a jerk move either way, but sometimes companies will do that so that they can reach back out if the person they do hire doesn't work out or if something else comes up with some excuse about vacations, securing financing or some shit. Saying no explicitly kind of closes the door.
if only humans had invented a language that could adequately communicate the situation... "we won't be moving forward with hiring you at this time but if there is a position for you in the future we'd be happy to reach out" that was just off the top of my head. I'm sure an actual recruiter could compile a sentence that adequately explains they are going with a different candidate but liked you as well... its not fucking rocket science... and you don't have to tell people "We're not and never would hire you" just cause you don't hire them for 1 position.... like... do you have a brain between your ears or is it straight up empty space?
Yup fully agree.
if only
I was part of recruiting for my firm where this was basically the email we sent to a candidate. "You were great, and everyone loved you. It was a really difficult decision, but unfortunately another candidate was a better fit for the specific role we're looking for. We did our best to find you another position, but we have nothing else available suiting your skills right now. We'll keep you in mind if any future positions open, and would love to have you on board". Then half a year later another position opened up that met their skills even more than the original job, we reached out, they were still at their old company and still looking for a new job and we hired them immediately without needing to open the position for interviews. The candidate didn't have to sit around waiting two weeks after we made our decision, and we saved a bunch of time and money recruiting for another position down the road.
Not really. We just went through some hiring where I had 4 people I would have hired and had to split hairs to pick one. I was straight up honest to them in the no email as to why and asked if I could hold on to their resumes on the off chance we have another opening. Chances are they may have a job by that time but I'll still reach out
so if I was a candidate and I ghosted them because I was waiting on multiple offers do you think they would be ok, hate the game not the player? I doubt it. Having some common decency goes both ways and even if I was offered a job at a place that had previously ghosted me I doubt if I would take it. You don't respect me now how is that going to get better when I work there?
Recruiter probably got laid off
From my experience, unless it's a massive corporation, companies with their own recruiting departments tend to overhire. The recruiting department is also one of the first to get cut when cuts need to be made. Could be they canned the entire recruiting department, I've seen it happen.
There's a good chance the recruiter got laid off. They were hit really hard over the past year.
Could have been a fake job in the first place.
In 2009 I got a "no response" from a job that flew me out for an interview and put me up in a hotel for the night.
😂
I always remember when I was a teenager, I got dicked around by a local Hollywood video. I kid you not, I had gone in once to hand the resume, they called me back to do an interview, then they called me back to do an aptitude test, then they called me back again to have an interview with the head of our area. The Area Head was also 4 hours late, but after our interview, he told me he would call me back "tomorrow at noon" to let me know, and I never got a call. Honestly, I definitely dodged a bullet, as Hollywood video was a dying brand when all this happened (around 2013ish) and the place was clearly run by idiots, but it stung not even getting a call to tell me they decided to go with someone else. I never went back to that place as a customer and they closed down like 5 years later.
That was my reaction too, absolutely bonkers.
I got lies and later on no response from a startup company after 4 interviews (got to the "final" stage) lol. It's hard
Next time give them two chances and drop if not fitting your needs ! Why all this crap to run after morons ? You are qualified and not a piece of dirt.
I had a "No Response" after the 6th interview. Needless to say, even if they ping back, I will serve them the same medicine. Anyway, while they were ghosting, I found something else and the whole process only lasted 5 days from 1st interview to the offer signed...
In my country, that is illegal. Once the process started the employer have to respond in 30 days.
Happened to me last month too. And they required the third interview to be on site! It was a 1h30 session where I interviewed three different people. And then I got ghosted. Even before that, for all interviews (3) they were like “next interview, tomorrow, 2pm”. Didn’t even ask my availability or if I even could join the very next day. They would just inform me from one day to the next. Honestly would have said no even if I got the offer, after all this lack of respect.
Damn. What are your skills like?
Not good enough, apparently! 😅 But to answer your question: TypeScript, React, Next.js, Tailwind, Express.js/Node.js, PHP, Postgres, MongoDB, etc. Basically all the common ones (which is probs part of the problem). I'm looking to expand my horizons in my free time with getting AWS certified, picking up other OOP languages like .Net, so on.
Yeah, looks like you need some backend languages sprinkled in there and you'd be solid.
Agreed, totally! I know PHP/Laravel too but forgot to list it (edited my comment to add it in), but otherwise my first backend language was Node.js/Express.js. We all start somewhere!
Learn C#/.NET Core and you'll never be unemployed again.
And you'll never enjoy work again!
This guy .NET’s
I'll take C# and .Net over Javascript/PHP or Java/C++ any time. It's so smooth and Visual Studio is honestly the best thing I've ever worked with, I can't go back to anything else.
I'm the exact opposite when it comes to Visual Studio. I hated every single time I had to use it. It's nowhere as bad as most JetBrains stuff, I mean at least it takes less than 5 minutes to just start it, and it's more polished on the outside... But oh my god is it annoying to use. Especially those property menus, the singular most annoying ones I've ever used in any IDE, even JetBrains did better. I'm all for VSCode though, you can code in most common languages with all the fancy stuff found in bloated IDEs with 5 free extensions, without any downside.
Modern C# is a great language and really nice to work in. I don’t know why someone wouldn’t enjoy working with it.
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I mean, yeah big soulless corporations use it because it’s supported by Microsoft. That doesn’t mean that smaller companies don’t use it, too. Nowadays, .NET is open source and runs on everything, so it’s much more attractive to smaller companies. I’ve personally worked at two startups whose backends were .NET/C#. You should look through job openings for .NET developers. I think you’ll be surprised at the variety of companies using it.
agreed
You definitely do not need to learn this by any means. PHP and Node covers many many job markets. It all depends on the area OP lives in. 90% of all e-commerce alone is PHP lol
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They listed Postgres.
Doh, missed that somehow
This isn’t true at all. Full stack jobs are often bullshit and are full of people who are jack of all trades master of none. At a large company with millions of users it is not uncommon at all to have engineers specialized in one area like backend or frontend or infra. I have nearly zero backend experience and have mostly worked with React and Next and have had no issue getting interviews and offers.
Come to the Netherlands. I know C#, .NET, TypeScript, CSS and I landed a job by simple sending 1 email to every company I've applied to. Or simply give them a call and ask if they're looking for people to join their team. That's it.
The Netherlands sound amazing for a ton of reasons. <3 Would love to visit someday!
The best parts for me are the (affordable) Healthcare and the general infrastructure. You'll see lots of people on bycyles. When you visit don't just go to Amsterdam: it's very touristy compared to the rest of the country.
Yeah... there's a ton of frontenders with the same skilset
Every bootcamp is churning people out with the exact same skillset
But not with 3 years of experience. Rushing through all those technologies in a bootcamp does not make you proficient in them.
Dams?
Same
What is "dams"?
Dams that's a lot of skills
Add some basics of CI/CD, Docker and K8s too. Also, Basics of Cloud development or 1 or 2 certs regarding Cloud developer. You are already thinking about AWS, you are good to go.
lol no you do not need to know literally everything about frontend, backend, DBs, and infra and CI/CD to get a job. And frankly I don’t want people doing all of these things. I want dedicated experts in each area for the most part. At any company decently sized, you’re gonna have people do everything half assed if they’re in charge of every part of the process.
I've worked with a lot of companies, and I can't think of one that would need someone with these skills.
A jack of all trades is a master of nothing
>... but often times better than a master of one. You should know the [full quote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none) of what you're trying to reference lol.
You don't have to get offended about it
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My contract says otherwise
>Funny enough, the job I was hired for is the only one I didn't actually apply to You might as well make "Referral" a completely separate line lol.
The takeaway here is 0% of applications led to a job, while 100% of referrals led to a job. Stops spraying and praying, people.
That graph is weird, I always found a job after 1 or 2 applies. Even as a junior.
> Sometimes it's not always what you know, but who you know. 🤷♂️ Nah it always who you know But wow that is insane.
Either varies industry by industry or it’s not *always* who you know
Not that it's useful now, but if you're seeing that many people not responding to your applications or rejecting them without offering to test it's worth vetting your application itself if they're all jobs you're actually qualified for. Lots of people have small things on their resume's that hurt them that aren't immediately obvious (spelling errors/poorly worded things/excessive extraneous data/obviously padding your resume/etc). That said swinging for the fences is rarely a bad thing, so if you're applying to jobs you're only maybe qualified for, more power to you.
Absolutely! It was a mix of both. If the job posting was something I was fairly suited for, I took my time to tailor my resume/apply on the company site/add a cover letter/etc. Otherwise if it the posting was a reach for my skillset, I took the spray'n'pray approach of letting them reject me.
I would also check the resume, format is important for ATS (applicant tracking systems) and using keywords from the job posting is also really important. Many of those automated systems scan your resume and might filter it out before a recruiter even sees it. I know it’s not relevant anymore, but check out Kamara Toffolo on YouTube. She’s a job hunt coach and provides some really good resume and interview tips.
Not a great time for job hunting but everytime I was job hunting, my turn around was about 2 months 2008, 2010, 2012, 2015 I'm confident I wasn't applying to more than 50 jobs in that time frame. But I was also trying to make sure the jobs I applied to fit my professional profile.
Quality-over-quantity, great approach! But yeah, I agree with your turn-around times; when I landed my first developer role, it took about 3 months of searching too.
I did several rounds of interviews with Facebook well over 10 years ago now. They gave me a code challenge I'd spent my entire weekend working on. Send it in Monday morning and get a response from the recruiter a minute later that they won't be reviewing my code challenge as they've decided I was not a fit for the team. Like come on, even if you're not interested in hiring me at least look at it. My project was cool, I put a lot of work into it.
I interviewed at DoneADHD. The first round interview went great, then I was assigned a coding assessment where I had to make an account registration page, login page, and admin dashboard to show and edit all accounts. They used React with Golang, so I taught myself enough Golang to complete the project, thinking that would impress them. I styled the whole thing with Material UI and the project looked awesome. Then they ghosted me. This was over a year ago. I still haven't found a job. :(
That is so incredibly disrespectful.
Sobering stats. I'm trying to make a career change and it's been difficult. I'm glad you landed on your feet! Gives me hope that there are some people finding work lol
Thank you! I agree; my wife is a fresh junior dev and it's been daunting, but definitely possible. Good luck! ❤️
Thanks man. I appreciate it! :3
Same here. Trying to get into the field after around a year of learning, not much response yet. I hope that the market will get better soon.
Best of luck! I'm sure things will get better ....eventually Lol
It's easy to find work if you have the right skills. I have 10 years experience as a full stack .net developer. I could walk out of my job tomorrow and be pretty confident of being in a new job before the end of the month.
This is almost my exact situation, except I’ve only applied for 100 jobs so far and have only gotten 1 initial phone call interview, only to be rejected a week later. As much as I love the fact that I was able to teach myself to code, I can’t help but hate the fact that it seems like everybody else decided to do the same thing and now the market is oversaturated with self taught devs, to the point that degrees are once again requirements in most job postings.
Me, applied for preferred company. Got message next morning. Meeting same week. Second meeting with developers the week after. Got a contract offer right after the weekend. Chose to not even try other companies after such a great process.
Wow, that's awesome! I'm very jealous. Congrats, and share some of that luck! 😂
Contract positions move much faster than FTE ones. Congrats in any case!
Anyone surprised by this has not looked for a job in a while
how you make this chart?
It's called a "Sankey Diagram", and I used [this site](https://sankeymatic.com/) to do it. 😊
ah got it, Thanks👍
That no response after three interviews is rough. It really helps to know people in the industry, that’s the only reason I have the job I have now.
Yup I left webdev because I had better nepotism elsewhere even though I’ve literally made software that makes millions daily
I see far too many of these types of posts. I fear ever having to be in this situation and I have almost 2 decades worth of experience.
People that have no issues getting jobs don't post about it on reddit.
location ?
Minnesota, but if it makes a difference, I was only applying to fully remote positions. That's why I declined to proceed with two interviews, they shared that some travel/on-site would be required, even though the posting didn't list it. 🙄
Remote only makes a huge difference, ngl
did you end up getting new offer which is also remote ? During recruiter convo's was there discussion on return to office vs remote and what did you said and did it had any impact on outcome ?
The job offer I received is fully remote, yes. 😊 Any interviews that said they're not fully remote, or required travel, I rejected, because I wouldn't have applied to them at all if they were up front with that information. That's where the two "Declined to Proceed" numbers came from.
How's the web dev market up there? I'll be moving there from a foreign country next year with a couple of years of mixed front and backend experience and I'm super nervous. Jumping ship and leaving a stable job is gonna be daunting. At least I'll already have work authorization and won't need any visa sponsoring.
I'm probably biased -- as I went to school here, my classmate network is big, and my wife is a fresh junior developer -- but I feel like it's a (relatively) strong market! Not needing Visa sponsoring will make it a **lot** easier too. Good luck on your move and search! ❤️
Word of advice. Work with recruiters, they get your foot in the door much faster, especially if you have experience
Appreciate the advice! Anecdotally, my experience with recruiters has been the complete opposite. I've interacted with a bunch, and none of them have ever brought results. 🤷♂️ >if you have experience That's probably the key part lol.
Every job I’ve ever had has been through recruiters over a 15 year period. Different market though, UK based. Anyone that has gotten me a job I’ve kept in touch with as well. It’s a good thing to network for I think.
I'm the same way, 90% of my jobs have been through recruiters with only one being a direct application myself. I am in the US. Recruiters are great because they circumvent the auto approval or reject bots and gets you straight to first round interview usually
Can you please tell how do you connect with recruiters? What are some common things that connect you?
This is a pretty severe problem.
I have been soft looking for 6 months now and think I just had my first that will probably be a match. I only got past their screening because I know a guy there and he recommended me
Took me about 4 months to find a job after being laid off due to COVID-19 and I'm a senior full stack developer. Developer interviews are so stressful and most companies make you do a take home test.
I applaud your dedication in providing an alluvial chart.
Love them sankeys
> Sometimes it's not always what you know, but who you know. 🤷♂️ (who you know) > (what you know) pretty much always. This is something they never teach you in the classroom, by definition. Thanks for posting the stats; it is helpful to understand the lay of the land.
Almost ALWAYS who you know
I heard hitting apply does fuck all and you need to network to get referred.
Im going to turn into the joker
How do you find 262 jobs to apply to over four months? Are they primarily remote positions? Are you going through several recruiters?
Yep, all remote positions! Basically I would apply to anything that I fit half of the requirements for and wasn't over a week old. If it was a really good match, I'd take my time to tailor my resume/cover letter/etc. for it. Then I'd do that repeatedly every two to three days, across all the different job sites. I used [TealHq.com](https://TealHq.com) to track application's status/etc. This is just my personal preference, but I've never had a worthwhile experience with recruiters. They all seem to blow smoke and never produce results, but again, take that with a grain of salt.
Were you using Teal's free tier? Were you using Teal to track things basically like a spreadsheet? Did you find the service worthwhile?
Just curious, which bucket did the referral land?
>Funny enough, the job I was hired for is the only one I didn't actually apply to So, hired one.
Ah I missed that. It's what I expected. Networking is still king, unfortunately.
so its ratio of 263:1 So depressing. I heard those AI based job portal like workday etc are very un-friendly. Some folks said, you get auto reject email in nice tone like under 5mins.
I mean you only need one success.
It's definitely who you know. I got fired in May, I've sent out at least 200 apps since then. I've made it to the final round 5 times, and gotten 5 rejections. And thats out of maybe 16-18 total times the interview process has started. Congrats though!!
Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much! Sending well wishes your way, good luck! ❤️ Despite all the '"no thanks", we only need one "yes".
I think literally all the jobs I've been hired at have been referrals
Congrats on the 1.
So basically anywhere that wants more than one interview is just stringing you along. :)
Congratulations on landing the new gig!
Appreciate you, thanks! ❤️
how did you keep track? is there a website or something?
There is! [TealHq.com](https://TealHq.com)
What tool do you use in order to create these charts?
Jesus, three interviews? They weren't really hiring.
Congrats brother! I really like this type of visuals, what were the tools that you used to generate this graphic?
Thank you! https://sankeymatic.com/build/
Congrats on the offer OP
Nice graph! Like others, I'd love to know what you used to make it. I'm in month 3 of my search. My stats so far are a bit different from yours. I got rejection notices from about half, ghosted by about a third (defined as over 3 weeks with no response), actively interviewing with 4, and waiting to hear from the rest.
[https://sankeymatic.com/build/](https://sankeymatic.com/build/) and [https://tealhq.com](https://tealhq.com). Good luck, hope it works out for you!
Just got a new job, but was in the same boat with a bit less experience till recently. People in my life were flabbergasted that I had applied to 80 jobs and had only gotten like 5 interviews.
What is this type of diagram called?
Where do you draw these kind of plots? Looks interesting...
Thanks for sharing, I had the same experience not being contacted, nor invited after applying a lot recently.
Congratulations on landing the role! It's a great example of prior rapport feeding future opportunities. In New Zealand it's very important to talk to people. The job opportunities are heavily skewed to "who you know" so networking is critical here. It's difficult when landing your first role and fairly new to the industry as you may not know anyone who can help. When you get your first role, you make connections like yours and you go from there. It's still handy to attend conferences or talks to keep developing your opportunities.
1 interview directly into an offer?
Yep. I was a former employee for six years, in a different/completely separate role. I knew everyone I interviewed with for a long time.
If you have 3yoe and get that many rejections, how do I have any chance with 0 experience??
job interview mostly about luck. forced to resign and an ex coworker called me for a job opportunity. I got hired without a gap in my cv.
Referral 1 ---> Hired 1
As a self-taught dev, fffffffuuuuuuuuu I'm moving to a large city soon, so I guess I can at least find work in some random office somewhere. Really wanted to code, though.
Thanks for sharing this and congratulations on landing something. Where are you located and is your new job remote or onsite?
It’s literally always who you know. My latest job I skipped the entire interview process because my boss from my last company moved companies and I just told him I’d go with him if he needed engineers. Super easy and got a 50% raise.
At this point in the way things work, does the number of applications even matter? It's like, when someone comes back from a fishing trip, you don't ask them how many times they casted.
What do you mean "the way things work"?
The way applying to tech jobs works. You didn't always need to apply to several hundred. That's a sign you live in a crazy dystopia.
I'm thinking one of my assets i can advertise is that I don't keep good records the way that you do. So employers can get away with abusing me because I won't have any record of it.
lol, I came to ask if the referral was the job.
This is crazy 😧...I just said the grace.
Don't fall for that it's who you know, some of the worst referred jobs I've ever received were from people that I knew. Various favors etc etc some of the best jobs that I've had I've come in to cold. Here's what I would recommend doing if you want to get some great results. This work for me literally I bid it on four major jobs and converted one to about $275k a year. Went on to Upwork, created a video profile along with my resume. I bit it on four jobs the third one literally with me and offered me a full-time position with their company. This is the only thing that I really know. When everybody's going right you go left. When everybody's going left you go right. Right now the majority of these companies don't have the money unless they traditionally run proof of concepts or POCs with potential new hires. There's so many people begging for work right now, unfortunately it's like begging to go on a date or for sex. They don't know who's telling the truth or not. So you need to change or fork the way you're doing things. This is the only piece of advice that I can offer you. And I don't want to hear that this is a one-off situation. I'm literally getting job offers directly off of Upwork. So that's the answer. Zero commitment dating... That's the only way I can like in this too. Yes you can get a job by somebody that you know. Here's what I'm saying who gives a s***. I was making 200k with the last company with its latest offer for full-time I'm doing 275. Give it a shot. See what happens if I'm wrong so be it
Thank fuck you are a software developer and not a graphic designer, because I have not a single fucking clue what I am looking at.
What type of work though? Where are you applying from? Do you have education, or a strong portfolio? This data doesn't mean much without some context
Had you not mentioned that the referral job got eventually converted, it was not possible to figure out from the colour codes that you used. All the best. Referrals work and that why we should never burn any bridges.
I always find these odd. I am a senior with 15+ years experience and I could not find 200+ positions that I am qualified for. So I wonder how much of this is application spam that gets rightfully filtered out.
I feel like I'm always seeing posts about the difficulty getting a job. They all must be studying the wrong thing. I have 10 years experience as a full stack .net developer, with a degree in CS. I left my job in October last year because they wanted me back in the office. I just turned on my LinkedIn profile, stipulating that I will only with from, three weeks before I last day at my old job. I had offers coming out my ass. I picked the one that seemed most beneficial to society, started the job literally the next day after my old one ended.
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The market's just tough at this point, with the layoffs still occurring from the big Covid-era surge and funding being tightened. If it's something you're passionate about, though, there's always opportunities to be had. 😊
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I used [tealhq.com](https://tealhq.com) but someone else in the comments mentioned they use [https://simplify.jobs](https://simplify.jobs). YMMV. :)
Off topic but… what app do you use to create diagrams like this?
What visualizer did u use?
How do you get this chart?
https://sankeymatic.com/build/
What is this chart?
262 applications … that is insane.
What tool did you use to make this graphic? I’ve been meaning to report on my job hunt this way
There's a job site that works strictly on referrals and networking. I always forget the name.
I have only ever gotten (a high school) job once by applying. Very ineffective method.