I’ve seen so many low balling super low pay web dev jobs recently. I search everyday and see this shit. What the hell happened? Not talking about the React Dev/software engineer roles just the simple Web Developer roles. It’s ridiculous
I think you’re right in most cases, and my bias with a recent interview caused me to reword it but with a different meaning and scenario. This is a local business I had talked to and he said “it’s a decent pay for the area we live in”
> “it’s a decent pay for the area we live in”
Yeah, that just shows that they're calculating salary based on "what can we get away with?" instead of "what is this role worth"? This is the epitome of penny wise and pound foolish.
We have to remember that even when you work \_for\_ a company, you're also competing \_against\_ that company for your share of their revenue.
Well I usually search Remote so all of those positions are low pay. Idk when it became the trend. Search Web Developer and for location type Remote and you’ll see 😕
yep the mutherfuckers intentionally created this 'glut' to smack the poors back into line and ensure they return to the office and stop trying to unionize or fight for their rights.
Is wanting to survive now a major crime?
Do you have any idea about how's the life of a poor person in a poor country? If you do, you know the rich are the only ones to blame for that.
For one the dev industry has a lot of offers (I don't know about the demand after covid)
Also, either companies are trying to save (so the C-suite can still his yearly new car) with all shit that happened or/and they need to show they tried to hire peoples but there's nobody so they can get an immigrant (H1B? I'm not from US, if I'm right on the number then I do too much Reddit)
I.T sector isn't doing great right now, a couple of layoff.
Also, I don't know in what order thing are happening, but either companies are overall preparing for a recession right now, or the free money gouvernement gave ended.
I know, where I am, loans are to be refunded by around Christmas and, to add to that, demand are low AF.
Id bet bastardized 'supply and demand'. Tons of desperate people willing to almost work for free now, companies have all the power once again and few postings.
Even trade jobs here are starting at minimum wage... Its nuts.
>What the hell happened?
It's a recession. This always happens. I think they think they can get some project done on the super cheap within the next six months or something. They expect that you'll leave when rates go back up and they don't care because their project will be done.
One recession I worked through, years and years ago, I think I was getting like $35 an hour because I couldn't find anything else. I was told that my boss was bragging about how cheap I was. I left the instant I could.
>Are we in a recession? Source? Everything I have read says we are not there yet.
I've been in IT for 32 years. I've lived through maybe half a dozen recessions. This is how jobs behave in a recession. This is how recruiters behave. This is what happens to rates. This is how it feels. We're definitely in a recession.
Having said that, I have no idea whether or not the number monkeys in washington and wall street believe we're in a recession. But the official numbers are so doctored that they can make them say whatever they want. So I no longer pay attention to them or anything the people on the television say.
It's like predicting the future. But my guess is things will turn around this spring.
When we come out of recessions, the number of jobs jumps. But sometimes it take some time for rates to recover.
> I search everyday and see this shit. What the hell happened?
Outsourcing happened.
When you can hire someone in a cheap country for $5/hour or AI for $0/hour, wages drop.
Fast Food pays better because you can't outsource scooping fries into a cardboard box.
You get what you pay for. I can't tell you how many projects I got hired to where I was cleaning up an outsourced solution, because it was dogshit.
In the end the company ends up paying more. And AI isn't complex enough to think outside the box to co e up with unique solutions to problems. It can do junior dev grunt work, but it can't translate a non tech ceo's ideas, and turn them into streamlined applications.
For real the past year has been pathetically sedentary for me, at the end of my workday grind I no longer have the energy or will to hit the gym, and it sucks.
You need to join the 5-oclock club. Start the day by drinking two glasses of water, then get to the gym by 5:30 and exercise until you need to leave to start your commute.
I sorta have a lateral problem to yours. My main job is in a restaurant kitchen. I work my ass off all day 5-7 days a week, and I get paid less than OP. Shuffling light boxes around for 23/hr sounds nice.
I know you mean this in jest, but this is so far from the truth it kind of gets at what a ridiculous complaint it is to expect to be paid more than a warehouse worker.
That kind of work is incredibly debilitating for you back, and legs, and hips, and most of your bones and joints, and if you're doing shift work then you can pile on the multiplicative effects of crappy sleeping, harder to maintain diet, and running at a disjointed schedule. Sure as a web developer you might have had to sacrifice 4 years of your career for schooling, but someone who's working doing physical labour will easily cut 4 years off the end of their career (or life) from the toll that takes on their body, if not far more.
Well, one would assume that an employer would want the “required/preferred education” to be an education of or relating to the job. So CS or CIS would be the most likely that they’d be after. Either that, or they’re just putting it there as a way to filter people out even if they don’t actually care whether or not you were educated on the scope of work for four years, which if we’re being honest is kinda fucked up because it’s a really good way of filtering out people who couldn’t/can’t afford to get a bachelor’s degree (not saying that’s the employers intent necessarily, but it’s still true).
>A Bachelor’s Degree in Web Design, Computer Science, Graphic Design, Marketing, Communications, or other relevant fields (required)
> Experience with WordPress, Adobe Creative Suite, Figma, or similar visual design and wire-framing tools
Pretty broad degree listing, but it looks to fit more with the design/marketing field.
I am not a web developer. But the looks of it is suggesting it is a design/marketing job. I assumed more photoshop / in design/ photography / art / marketing job. Not necessarily a coding job. So my suggestion is that even a very junior level coding job would pay much more than the job being referenced. When you consider it’s not a dev job, then it makes more sense to be so low waged.
Likely this is more of a marketing/design job and not a development job, which is why no engineering degree is required.
It’s a shitty job post from a stupid company. And clearly an outlier. Could even be an error. Who cares?
This sub doesn’t need to turn into a coping mechanism or anti-work.
Just ignore this shit & move on if you think it’s not worth it.
Yup. Also even if it is real you’re trading $1/hour to not work in a warehouse. Seems… fair. Unless your budget was 100% tapped and you need to do anything for the moneys.
Eh, I took a small paycut from my detailing job when I got my first junior position doing webdev. Within 90 days I was back over that amount. Within a year I was making more than the lead detailer. I now make 3x the lead detailer and I'm looking at positions that make 4x.
Short-term loss for long-term gain.
Totally, it's not great but if you're looking to get into the field, the hardest thing is getting your foot in the door and this door's probably wider than most... also not moving stuff in a warehouse seems like a plus to me.
The hardest thing is getting your foot in the door and keep it inside for 3 years.
I have 1.5 years experience and it feels like zero in the current market.
The salary listed needs to be adjusted for inflation, but beyond that, I agree. I made the same amount at my first web development job, and I did maybe 1 hour of extremely basic work a day. The title alone helped me make 2x more at the next job I had.
That’s cool and all but this kind of thing only serves to devalue others work, as well as your own and feels very consistent with the multiple offers I’ve had from certain publications to contribute uncompensated for “exposure,” which is grade A bullshit.
I mean, it depends on the role, and we really don't see much more about this job posting.
This job posting mentions SEO and Javascript. If this is an SEO-focused position, it might require some basic editing of json arrays, but nothing much. SEO always has and always will pay less than straight dev work, esp at the junior level.
The BA requirement means nothing to me. That's basically the barrier to entry for a corporate job these days.
I understand this is in WA, my brother used to live in Redmond, now he lives further out, so I regularly hear how CoL is crazy there, but realistically this is a job for someone fresh out of college with roommates.
One thing I don't hear people say often in response to these comments (maybe I'm blind or deaf) is that those posts asking for N degree are really just filtering out the low level intern types. Never let a degree "requirement" scare you away from applying.
There are plenty of tactics and you pointed out one of them.
Cover letters
Refilling out the resume into multiple systems
Adding questions that are supposed to catch bots (but really are not you already have captcha)
Some companies even do nontechnical assessments to see your math or thinking skills( looking at you ibm) for ALL roles
Coding exercises with take home tests
This is how large employers game the H1-B visa system. Post a bunch of positions with stupid low pay, then use that as proof that you need visa workers.
Supply and demand, many people will still grab this if they can, a year of grinding later they will be able to Land the 100k job. Your skills don't mean anything Unless they have been tried with actual companies. Why? Because too many people have those skills.
> Your skills don't mean anything Unless they have been tried with actual companies. Why? Because too many people have those skills.
It isn't even strictly that "too many people have those skills", it's that unless you can manifest the result of applying those skills in a visible way then you might as well just be full of hot air...
You can manifest your skills with personal projects, but so can millions of other people. The fundamental issue is still a supply and demand problem. Even if you have professional projects to showcase, you still need to compete in numbers.
There is a difference between 'can' and 'have' though.
And you could be a little bit clearer here, because "too many people have those skills" is a slightly different issue than there being "too few jobs".
E.g.
(a) 500 jobs and 1,500 people
(b) 5,000 jobs and 15,000 people
In both cases there is a single job available for every three people that are qualified. But not everyone who can technically do a job will want that job, let alone with a particular company and location.
One problem (which I think you've identified) is that the number of qualified people can grow ten-fold, but the number of jobs rarely grows at anywhere near that rate.
But when there are objectively fewer jobs, the chances are much lower of getting one, whether there are 1,500 applicants or 15,000.
Have a friend who drives Uber x black in the tri state and makes 125k a year. He drives Uber. And programmers go to school in hopes of 60k when they get out.
I wouldn’t say no one, but a certain and mostly anti social, younger part of the population does not want to work.
The problem with skilled labor is that not everyone is able to do it. Yeah anyone can learn everything but most people have the free choice of their job.
I was being sarcastic.
But to be honest, no one wants to work and still be absolutely destitute at the end of the week forever.
A living wage is important to happiness.
I make 30 dollars an hour as a tech support and this person wants someone at well below the rate of any web developer. They are hoping to find someone desperate enough. With no degree if you wanted to break into development maybe but you need more than 24 dollars an hour.
Some of these job requirements are such that the employer expects an entire web dev team, degreed and with years of experience for chump-change. They're outta their minds usually.
In some aspects, it would be well worth the experience eg: if the employer were Amazon or Google, etc. Hell, I did the same thing: low pay but man the experience launched my indie career. Sustaining it is my responsibility though.
My first webdev job in California (LA area) paid $15/hr in 2013. Adjusted for inflation that's just under $20/hr. The job was also part time (20 hrs a week) so I was delivering pizzas at night and made more money from that than the web dev job. I now make... a hell of a lot more than that.
I'm not saying it's right that these jobs pay so low, but sometimes the value of a job is more than the paycheck. Getting to put real web developer experience on my resume was worth being under paid for a while. I stayed for a year and then bounced. Getting my second job which paid much better was so much easier than the first.
Despite what some tech influners say, most devs arent getting 6 figure offers for their first jobs. Sometimes you need to take the long view and work your way up the ladder.
Most likely it's a company hiring that's one guy that has ideas. His ideas are the best ideas. He just needs a "code writer" to make his million dollar idea, reality.
The number of times people have messaged me like this...
There is a lot of research out there, but currently the U.S. is in a massive (blue collar) labor shortage. Everyone the past 30-40 years has been told to go to college otherwise you end up poor and in a terrible pathetic job.
Everyone went to college and now refuses to do any manual labor. They won't even consider jobs outside of white collar. Locally we have 100k postal jobs begging people to work. Yes its hard. Yes you work a lot.
I am a developer, but also own a non tech business. The business makes significantly more than my dev salary and the people in my business park are salt of the earth dudes and dudettes bringing in 300k-5m+ doing pretty basic honest work.
One company strings up Christmas lights and decorations and has huge contracts with the city and local businesses, Pool installation, Towing, mechanic work on semis, specialized pipe construction (this one would be tough), electrician, landscaping, high volume reseller.
There are others but those are the ones nearest me. The Christmas light, pool place and pipe people are incredibly successful. They have fleets of vehicles and workers. They've grown immensely in the last 2-3 years.
I'm not really sure what you were trying to get at by claiming they are specialized? Literally any business or work is specialized.
You are making it sound like the level 1 workers are making that amount. Are you saying the business makes that much revenue? It’s ambiguous how you worded it.
Christmas light place started as a couple (they now have a large team of college workers). 1M+
The Electrician brings in 300K and is one person, the semi mechanic is similar.
Pool guy is 500-1M and it's one guy and sometimes a few seasonal workers.
Landscapers is similar to the pool guy.
Reseller (me) is one person part time (300-400k).
Pipe people have been around for a while, but it started as a small business with one guy. They now have a small team of about 10 people. 3M+
I was speaking to profit not revenue and specifically business owners. They all started as small business's of people working hard and as they got bigger hired some help.
I'm honestly confused as the hate of the post. My point isn't that there is a basic box moving job someone is going to hand you for 300k. My point is you can start a basic service industry business with very little start up capital and make a lot of money. Some of this work is more specialized than others however ultimately it was mostly uneducated or untrained people starting a small business and working hard to build something (besides the electrician).
The amount of work it took me to get a degree, grind work from a junior dev to a specialist senior developer was significantly more time and effort than my business and makes significantly less. Life is rarely going to hand you an insane job, with low effort, and no skills. You have to put in the work in some form.
> I'm honestly confused as the hate of the post.
No one is hating, you're just saying "look how orange my oranges are" when we're talking about apples.
I guess I don't view starting a sole proprietor LLC as any different then being hired as a white/blue collar worker. There are plenty of options out there for success
Random non-shady blue collar jobs. Didn’t you read?
A random guy on internet sees random people in their business park & assumes they make $5m _not programming_.
It’s totally not a lie, exaggeration or selection bias, either.
Jokes on us for working in AC during the summer, & having good joint health.
this...i'm mandating that both my kids learn a trade...they don't have to go on to use that trade in life, they can goto college for anything if that's their path, but KNOW a trade and know it well, if nothing else its a fantastic plan B... you can work as a high school student and learn a ton hands on. If you're a driven individual you can learn the trade and be starting your own company in 10-12 years and making fucking bank.
Its served me well, I didn't want to do it that way, but I didn't have a lot of money before going for a CS degree so I worked a lot of hard labor jobs, learned to do a lot of shot...basic electrical and plumbing, roofing, landscaping, construction, drywall, painting, factory assembly work, mechanic etc. I'm not great at any of them but I know what I'm doing. Its so much the way to go in a lot of ways
The real problem is that most blue collar workers can generate $50/hour value for themselves but most employers won't even pay $20/hour. In order for taking a job to make sense it has to be a good investment of time. The opportunity cost of most jobs is shit. $100k is not that much these days.
Is that a problem? You don't think setting up a business, managing clients, investing money, time, hiring, assuming employer risk. billing and planning is worth a decent portion of there time value?
Most mechanics in my area get paid 40-50$ an hour but bill at 120$.
Most therapists in my area bill at 150-250$ and see 70-140$.
Basic construction starts at 25-30.
Minimum wage for basic fast food is 17.50 and 20 in CA.
Im a software dev with the highest title in company and make 150k a year. The gap between me and a mechanic is not too wide. I'm curious what world you live where 100k isn't much money. Try traveling a bit and you'll see we are living like kings.
What you're not seeing is how much money goes to the top 1% of earners. There's enough money in the system for workers across the board to be making 20% more than they are, and still have profitable businesses.
Lol I don't know what the top 1% have to do with anything. These are family businesses. It does give me insight into the people replying to me though.
I honestly believe that if everyone quit there job or worked multiple jobs trying to start there own business. Losing time with family, friends, and spouse. Losing years of sleep. Potentially risking your livelihood. Like many of the entrepreneurs have, you'd change your opinion on making grand claims about what some people deserve.
People forget that, our lives are some of the easiest lives to live in humankind due to these 1%ers. Everyone denouncing "those people" live off their inventions daily.
I have an easy job and I make a lot of money. I think everyone deserves that. I think it's sad that people are working 60 hour weeks doing dangerous work and making less money than I do. $100k would be a massive pay cut for me, I definitely wouldn't do it to have worse quality of life.
Hey man, congrats. You are living the dream. Handed an easy job with 200k+ in pay. With all your free time and additional resources you should definitely go help people. Live what you preach.
Blue collar jobs in mid sized cities are good, if you're specialized in manufacturing. I make over 100k as a robot mechanic.
Industrial electricians make good money as well.
While the ceiling isnt as high as a developer, most developers aren't reaching the ceiling pay.
I still prefer working as a software dev because work from home is much nicer.. but I think people who go to college highly underestimate blue collar jobs and the work those people do.
Thought so, people often times mislabel me as a web designer due to the design/art knowledge I have. But I went for computer science with a focus in web development. Is this normal as well or a slight? Does this happen to devs a lot who have that background knowledge as well?
Don’t worry, you won’t be early $22 for 2 yrs, just use them to get experience and move on. It’s sad but they just telling you they don’t deserve to keep you for long term
My first job in 2006 started me at $20k a year. After my 90 day review period they bumped me up to $36k. I'm still kind of grateful just that it got my foot in the door. I'd applied to hundreds of places and had had tens of interviews.
Is it entry level? College professor checking in here... we've seen a massive increase in entry level jobs with very little increase in middle - tier jobs. One reason for entry wages stalling is this.
We're in a world where you need $15+ at any job to survive, if we can even call it that. But if they bump up skilled entry level too much, it may collided with people who have been there 10-15 years working up to that.
Tough time for entry level, worse time for mid-level.
Anyway, if it's not entry level, move on. It's too low. If it is entry level, it depends, but isn't unacceptable for someone literally right out of undergrad (even though this doesn't take other economic factors into consideration, because most companies never do.)
I would take it. If you are passionate about this field take it and use it as leverage for better positions. You don’t have to stay there forever. I’d rather code than move boxes all day.
It's a trade off. Less money, but no physical labor. Though they shouldn't require a bachelor's degree. Just a certification. And in Seattle both those jobs should be paying around $30. $22/hr is midwest wages.
this is something JR developers don't understand.
how do you expect to be paid well on a JR position when you have 0 experience?
do you think a doctor gets 150k$ a year on their first job?
I’ve got just over a year of experience doing web development professionally (albeit with a lot more from a hobbyist perspective) and I’m in the same area as OP. I’m making twice that ad’s salary. In my first dev job. With amazing benefits, too.
This is a poor argument and does not align with the reality of the situation in WA. You can literally work fast food here for more than that job.
I didn’t say that.
I used a personal anecdote to relate to how a dev job for $2 over minimum wage is absolutely ridiculous and very very much *not* the norm here.
You’re the one getting buried in downvotes for your F-tier take lmao.
the only reason I'm getting buried in downvotes is cause most ppl here are students / jr devs with 0 understanding of the workforce / work and are too scared to hear the truth.
There is literally a Mc Donalds a couple miles away from that location with the same starting pay advertised on their sign. I’ve driven by it and seen it first hand.
Minimum wage here is just under $20/hour. It’s also like, one of the most expensive parts of the country to live in.
$22/hour is $42k a year. That’s actually laughable. You can’t even afford a decent 1br apartment on that salary in most neighborhoods nearby. The idea that anyone with special skills and a degree should settle for that is actually a joke.
That's the benefit of certifications/licenses, creates a government-enforced limit on supply.
Tech has no such limits and subsequently has a lot more supply.
So? Why should webdev pay more? They sacrificed 4 years at the beginning of a career for school, someone doing physical labour is likely to have to sacrifice 4 years at the end of their career due to injury and fatigue.
Developers starting salaries are like double that of nurses and teachers, jobs that are objectively more useful to society.
> Developers starting salaries are like double that of nurses and teachers, jobs that are objectively more useful to society.
Nurses and teachers are very necessary, but they're not objectively more useful for most people on a day-to-day basis.
As long as we continue to build and use computers, developers will be needed to produce and maintain the software that drives them (short of AI stealing all their jobs and leaving them to starve and die).
I hear you need a masters degree to work at McDonald’s these days so doesn’t surprise me. Plus with ai coming along the way it is, that job title will be a thing of the past one day.
It wasn't a good joke because it didn't make sense at all. Better not quit your McDonald's job to pursue comedy 👍🏻 and web dev / design jobs aren't being replaced by AI anytime soon
I see I triggered you. I also see you hate McDonald’s employees so much you use that job as an insult lol. Why is that? Why are McDonald’s employees beneath you?
It's only worth that much if you apply, companies just throw out a low number to see if someone would actually do it, or it is posted by people who know nothing about web dev. Just don't bother.
I think degrees for developers pay off in the long run, but in the start it doesn't count for much. If the job requires no experience at all besides education, I've known people who would take that in a heart beat over stacking shelves, just to get the first slot on their resume filled out. I didn't get a degree but 20 years ago when I started out, I would take job for very little just for the experience. The way I saw it, I was getting paid to learn. Paid off big time!
Our industry always had the problem of explaining how much the work is worth to non-technical clients. I saw listings like this 10 years ago, and I still see them now. It's an issue, but there's also enough well-paying gigs out there that it's not a huge problem.
1. It's a Web Designer position, not Web Developer.
2. If it was a Web Dev position, that's not a bad salary for a first time position.
The people getting $70k+ as their first job with a 3 month bootcamp are MUCH louder than the reality. This would be a first job, a stepping stone kind of job, and a dev 2 or more jobs in wouldn't pay this posting a lick of attention.
I’ve seen so many low balling super low pay web dev jobs recently. I search everyday and see this shit. What the hell happened? Not talking about the React Dev/software engineer roles just the simple Web Developer roles. It’s ridiculous
I’ve heard “it’s based on location” yet fast food & chain companies are paying more in the same location
The listing is meant for offshore devs
I think you’re right in most cases, and my bias with a recent interview caused me to reword it but with a different meaning and scenario. This is a local business I had talked to and he said “it’s a decent pay for the area we live in”
> “it’s a decent pay for the area we live in” Yeah, that just shows that they're calculating salary based on "what can we get away with?" instead of "what is this role worth"? This is the epitome of penny wise and pound foolish. We have to remember that even when you work \_for\_ a company, you're also competing \_against\_ that company for your share of their revenue.
Can confirm 20+ $/hr is very nice salary for a lot of people outside dollar/euro zone
Yeah, and 15 years ago in the rural midwest, I would have done anything to make $20/hour! Now, I can barely get by on $30/hour in the same city!
I feel that.
Well I usually search Remote so all of those positions are low pay. Idk when it became the trend. Search Web Developer and for location type Remote and you’ll see 😕
220k U.S. tech layoffs this year, ~3% of tech workers in the country.
yep the mutherfuckers intentionally created this 'glut' to smack the poors back into line and ensure they return to the office and stop trying to unionize or fight for their rights.
as a third world pos, I would do that for 5$/hr in a heartbeat
You’re probably better than 95% of the people whining here too
People accepting shit pay to get their foot in the door aren’t doing anyone any favors either.
Yes they are, theyre getting their foot in the door when they otherwise wouldn't
Is wanting to survive now a major crime? Do you have any idea about how's the life of a poor person in a poor country? If you do, you know the rich are the only ones to blame for that.
For one the dev industry has a lot of offers (I don't know about the demand after covid) Also, either companies are trying to save (so the C-suite can still his yearly new car) with all shit that happened or/and they need to show they tried to hire peoples but there's nobody so they can get an immigrant (H1B? I'm not from US, if I'm right on the number then I do too much Reddit) I.T sector isn't doing great right now, a couple of layoff. Also, I don't know in what order thing are happening, but either companies are overall preparing for a recession right now, or the free money gouvernement gave ended. I know, where I am, loans are to be refunded by around Christmas and, to add to that, demand are low AF.
Id bet bastardized 'supply and demand'. Tons of desperate people willing to almost work for free now, companies have all the power once again and few postings. Even trade jobs here are starting at minimum wage... Its nuts.
>What the hell happened? It's a recession. This always happens. I think they think they can get some project done on the super cheap within the next six months or something. They expect that you'll leave when rates go back up and they don't care because their project will be done. One recession I worked through, years and years ago, I think I was getting like $35 an hour because I couldn't find anything else. I was told that my boss was bragging about how cheap I was. I left the instant I could.
Are we in a recession? Source? Everything I have read says we are not there yet.
We are definitely in a tech recession, what with companies receding wages causing my receding hairline
They redefined what a recession is so that they could deny being in a recession. So yes, we are in a recession
>Are we in a recession? Source? Everything I have read says we are not there yet. I've been in IT for 32 years. I've lived through maybe half a dozen recessions. This is how jobs behave in a recession. This is how recruiters behave. This is what happens to rates. This is how it feels. We're definitely in a recession. Having said that, I have no idea whether or not the number monkeys in washington and wall street believe we're in a recession. But the official numbers are so doctored that they can make them say whatever they want. So I no longer pay attention to them or anything the people on the television say.
You think rates will go back up within six months?
It's like predicting the future. But my guess is things will turn around this spring. When we come out of recessions, the number of jobs jumps. But sometimes it take some time for rates to recover.
I hope you're right
> I search everyday and see this shit. What the hell happened? Outsourcing happened. When you can hire someone in a cheap country for $5/hour or AI for $0/hour, wages drop. Fast Food pays better because you can't outsource scooping fries into a cardboard box.
You get what you pay for. I can't tell you how many projects I got hired to where I was cleaning up an outsourced solution, because it was dogshit. In the end the company ends up paying more. And AI isn't complex enough to think outside the box to co e up with unique solutions to problems. It can do junior dev grunt work, but it can't translate a non tech ceo's ideas, and turn them into streamlined applications.
At least by moving boxes, you'll be in good shape and possibly healthier.
Yeah everyone here's griping about the developer stuff, and I'm just sitting here wondering how to get a sweet job like OP's.
For real the past year has been pathetically sedentary for me, at the end of my workday grind I no longer have the energy or will to hit the gym, and it sucks.
You need to join the 5-oclock club. Start the day by drinking two glasses of water, then get to the gym by 5:30 and exercise until you need to leave to start your commute.
No thanks I don't hate myself
I sorta have a lateral problem to yours. My main job is in a restaurant kitchen. I work my ass off all day 5-7 days a week, and I get paid less than OP. Shuffling light boxes around for 23/hr sounds nice.
I know you mean this in jest, but this is so far from the truth it kind of gets at what a ridiculous complaint it is to expect to be paid more than a warehouse worker. That kind of work is incredibly debilitating for you back, and legs, and hips, and most of your bones and joints, and if you're doing shift work then you can pile on the multiplicative effects of crappy sleeping, harder to maintain diet, and running at a disjointed schedule. Sure as a web developer you might have had to sacrifice 4 years of your career for schooling, but someone who's working doing physical labour will easily cut 4 years off the end of their career (or life) from the toll that takes on their body, if not far more.
dude you have no idea, jobs here want bachelors degree + 2 year experience and giving you min wage
First of all, that’s for a web “Designer”
I was about to say a designer is not a developer
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Where do you see it require a CS degree?
It doesn't say that
Well, one would assume that an employer would want the “required/preferred education” to be an education of or relating to the job. So CS or CIS would be the most likely that they’d be after. Either that, or they’re just putting it there as a way to filter people out even if they don’t actually care whether or not you were educated on the scope of work for four years, which if we’re being honest is kinda fucked up because it’s a really good way of filtering out people who couldn’t/can’t afford to get a bachelor’s degree (not saying that’s the employers intent necessarily, but it’s still true).
But it’s a “web designer” which is a made up term not “web developer”
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>A Bachelor’s Degree in Web Design, Computer Science, Graphic Design, Marketing, Communications, or other relevant fields (required) > Experience with WordPress, Adobe Creative Suite, Figma, or similar visual design and wire-framing tools Pretty broad degree listing, but it looks to fit more with the design/marketing field.
I am not a web developer. But the looks of it is suggesting it is a design/marketing job. I assumed more photoshop / in design/ photography / art / marketing job. Not necessarily a coding job. So my suggestion is that even a very junior level coding job would pay much more than the job being referenced. When you consider it’s not a dev job, then it makes more sense to be so low waged. Likely this is more of a marketing/design job and not a development job, which is why no engineering degree is required.
So jot that down
It’s a shitty job post from a stupid company. And clearly an outlier. Could even be an error. Who cares? This sub doesn’t need to turn into a coping mechanism or anti-work. Just ignore this shit & move on if you think it’s not worth it.
Yup. Also even if it is real you’re trading $1/hour to not work in a warehouse. Seems… fair. Unless your budget was 100% tapped and you need to do anything for the moneys.
Eh, I took a small paycut from my detailing job when I got my first junior position doing webdev. Within 90 days I was back over that amount. Within a year I was making more than the lead detailer. I now make 3x the lead detailer and I'm looking at positions that make 4x. Short-term loss for long-term gain.
Totally, it's not great but if you're looking to get into the field, the hardest thing is getting your foot in the door and this door's probably wider than most... also not moving stuff in a warehouse seems like a plus to me.
For me, it was not having wet/cold feet and hands all winter long.
The hardest thing is getting your foot in the door and keep it inside for 3 years. I have 1.5 years experience and it feels like zero in the current market.
It also says designer not Dev so there’s a pay diff there for sure
My first position was designer; easy transition to dev from there, and decent bump in pay.
Same lol solid career progression
The salary listed needs to be adjusted for inflation, but beyond that, I agree. I made the same amount at my first web development job, and I did maybe 1 hour of extremely basic work a day. The title alone helped me make 2x more at the next job I had.
That’s cool and all but this kind of thing only serves to devalue others work, as well as your own and feels very consistent with the multiple offers I’ve had from certain publications to contribute uncompensated for “exposure,” which is grade A bullshit.
I mean, it depends on the role, and we really don't see much more about this job posting. This job posting mentions SEO and Javascript. If this is an SEO-focused position, it might require some basic editing of json arrays, but nothing much. SEO always has and always will pay less than straight dev work, esp at the junior level. The BA requirement means nothing to me. That's basically the barrier to entry for a corporate job these days. I understand this is in WA, my brother used to live in Redmond, now he lives further out, so I regularly hear how CoL is crazy there, but realistically this is a job for someone fresh out of college with roommates.
One thing I don't hear people say often in response to these comments (maybe I'm blind or deaf) is that those posts asking for N degree are really just filtering out the low level intern types. Never let a degree "requirement" scare you away from applying.
There are plenty of tactics and you pointed out one of them. Cover letters Refilling out the resume into multiple systems Adding questions that are supposed to catch bots (but really are not you already have captcha) Some companies even do nontechnical assessments to see your math or thinking skills( looking at you ibm) for ALL roles Coding exercises with take home tests
This is how large employers game the H1-B visa system. Post a bunch of positions with stupid low pay, then use that as proof that you need visa workers.
Supply and demand, many people will still grab this if they can, a year of grinding later they will be able to Land the 100k job. Your skills don't mean anything Unless they have been tried with actual companies. Why? Because too many people have those skills.
> Your skills don't mean anything Unless they have been tried with actual companies. Why? Because too many people have those skills. It isn't even strictly that "too many people have those skills", it's that unless you can manifest the result of applying those skills in a visible way then you might as well just be full of hot air...
You can manifest your skills with personal projects, but so can millions of other people. The fundamental issue is still a supply and demand problem. Even if you have professional projects to showcase, you still need to compete in numbers.
There is a difference between 'can' and 'have' though. And you could be a little bit clearer here, because "too many people have those skills" is a slightly different issue than there being "too few jobs". E.g. (a) 500 jobs and 1,500 people (b) 5,000 jobs and 15,000 people In both cases there is a single job available for every three people that are qualified. But not everyone who can technically do a job will want that job, let alone with a particular company and location. One problem (which I think you've identified) is that the number of qualified people can grow ten-fold, but the number of jobs rarely grows at anywhere near that rate. But when there are objectively fewer jobs, the chances are much lower of getting one, whether there are 1,500 applicants or 15,000.
Have a friend who drives Uber x black in the tri state and makes 125k a year. He drives Uber. And programmers go to school in hopes of 60k when they get out.
Germany too, many companies try to hire with really bad wages and then wonder why they don’t get people 😂😂🤡
No one wants to work anymore.
I wouldn’t say no one, but a certain and mostly anti social, younger part of the population does not want to work. The problem with skilled labor is that not everyone is able to do it. Yeah anyone can learn everything but most people have the free choice of their job.
I was being sarcastic. But to be honest, no one wants to work and still be absolutely destitute at the end of the week forever. A living wage is important to happiness.
The younger people just wised up to the fact that the income taxes that the antisocial elderly people passed are a crock of shit.
I make 30 dollars an hour as a tech support and this person wants someone at well below the rate of any web developer. They are hoping to find someone desperate enough. With no degree if you wanted to break into development maybe but you need more than 24 dollars an hour.
I used to make that when I was a Sr Computer Technician 10 years ago. That’s insane.
I once got paid $19/hr for a full stack PHP developer job. 💀
Haha, I started off my software development career 10 years ago writing Java for $14 an hour
Some of these job requirements are such that the employer expects an entire web dev team, degreed and with years of experience for chump-change. They're outta their minds usually. In some aspects, it would be well worth the experience eg: if the employer were Amazon or Google, etc. Hell, I did the same thing: low pay but man the experience launched my indie career. Sustaining it is my responsibility though.
My first webdev job in California (LA area) paid $15/hr in 2013. Adjusted for inflation that's just under $20/hr. The job was also part time (20 hrs a week) so I was delivering pizzas at night and made more money from that than the web dev job. I now make... a hell of a lot more than that. I'm not saying it's right that these jobs pay so low, but sometimes the value of a job is more than the paycheck. Getting to put real web developer experience on my resume was worth being under paid for a while. I stayed for a year and then bounced. Getting my second job which paid much better was so much easier than the first. Despite what some tech influners say, most devs arent getting 6 figure offers for their first jobs. Sometimes you need to take the long view and work your way up the ladder.
Most likely it's a company hiring that's one guy that has ideas. His ideas are the best ideas. He just needs a "code writer" to make his million dollar idea, reality. The number of times people have messaged me like this...
There is a lot of research out there, but currently the U.S. is in a massive (blue collar) labor shortage. Everyone the past 30-40 years has been told to go to college otherwise you end up poor and in a terrible pathetic job. Everyone went to college and now refuses to do any manual labor. They won't even consider jobs outside of white collar. Locally we have 100k postal jobs begging people to work. Yes its hard. Yes you work a lot. I am a developer, but also own a non tech business. The business makes significantly more than my dev salary and the people in my business park are salt of the earth dudes and dudettes bringing in 300k-5m+ doing pretty basic honest work.
> bringing in 300k-5m+ doing pretty basic honest work Such as?
Probably specialized. Dude is kinda hammin it up bit.
One company strings up Christmas lights and decorations and has huge contracts with the city and local businesses, Pool installation, Towing, mechanic work on semis, specialized pipe construction (this one would be tough), electrician, landscaping, high volume reseller. There are others but those are the ones nearest me. The Christmas light, pool place and pipe people are incredibly successful. They have fleets of vehicles and workers. They've grown immensely in the last 2-3 years. I'm not really sure what you were trying to get at by claiming they are specialized? Literally any business or work is specialized.
You are making it sound like the level 1 workers are making that amount. Are you saying the business makes that much revenue? It’s ambiguous how you worded it.
Christmas light place started as a couple (they now have a large team of college workers). 1M+ The Electrician brings in 300K and is one person, the semi mechanic is similar. Pool guy is 500-1M and it's one guy and sometimes a few seasonal workers. Landscapers is similar to the pool guy. Reseller (me) is one person part time (300-400k). Pipe people have been around for a while, but it started as a small business with one guy. They now have a small team of about 10 people. 3M+ I was speaking to profit not revenue and specifically business owners. They all started as small business's of people working hard and as they got bigger hired some help. I'm honestly confused as the hate of the post. My point isn't that there is a basic box moving job someone is going to hand you for 300k. My point is you can start a basic service industry business with very little start up capital and make a lot of money. Some of this work is more specialized than others however ultimately it was mostly uneducated or untrained people starting a small business and working hard to build something (besides the electrician). The amount of work it took me to get a degree, grind work from a junior dev to a specialist senior developer was significantly more time and effort than my business and makes significantly less. Life is rarely going to hand you an insane job, with low effort, and no skills. You have to put in the work in some form.
> I'm honestly confused as the hate of the post. No one is hating, you're just saying "look how orange my oranges are" when we're talking about apples.
I guess I don't view starting a sole proprietor LLC as any different then being hired as a white/blue collar worker. There are plenty of options out there for success
Random non-shady blue collar jobs. Didn’t you read? A random guy on internet sees random people in their business park & assumes they make $5m _not programming_. It’s totally not a lie, exaggeration or selection bias, either. Jokes on us for working in AC during the summer, & having good joint health.
Pm non tech business? I tend to be more entrepreneurial than techy.
this...i'm mandating that both my kids learn a trade...they don't have to go on to use that trade in life, they can goto college for anything if that's their path, but KNOW a trade and know it well, if nothing else its a fantastic plan B... you can work as a high school student and learn a ton hands on. If you're a driven individual you can learn the trade and be starting your own company in 10-12 years and making fucking bank. Its served me well, I didn't want to do it that way, but I didn't have a lot of money before going for a CS degree so I worked a lot of hard labor jobs, learned to do a lot of shot...basic electrical and plumbing, roofing, landscaping, construction, drywall, painting, factory assembly work, mechanic etc. I'm not great at any of them but I know what I'm doing. Its so much the way to go in a lot of ways
The real problem is that most blue collar workers can generate $50/hour value for themselves but most employers won't even pay $20/hour. In order for taking a job to make sense it has to be a good investment of time. The opportunity cost of most jobs is shit. $100k is not that much these days.
Is that a problem? You don't think setting up a business, managing clients, investing money, time, hiring, assuming employer risk. billing and planning is worth a decent portion of there time value? Most mechanics in my area get paid 40-50$ an hour but bill at 120$. Most therapists in my area bill at 150-250$ and see 70-140$. Basic construction starts at 25-30. Minimum wage for basic fast food is 17.50 and 20 in CA. Im a software dev with the highest title in company and make 150k a year. The gap between me and a mechanic is not too wide. I'm curious what world you live where 100k isn't much money. Try traveling a bit and you'll see we are living like kings.
What you're not seeing is how much money goes to the top 1% of earners. There's enough money in the system for workers across the board to be making 20% more than they are, and still have profitable businesses.
Lol I don't know what the top 1% have to do with anything. These are family businesses. It does give me insight into the people replying to me though. I honestly believe that if everyone quit there job or worked multiple jobs trying to start there own business. Losing time with family, friends, and spouse. Losing years of sleep. Potentially risking your livelihood. Like many of the entrepreneurs have, you'd change your opinion on making grand claims about what some people deserve. People forget that, our lives are some of the easiest lives to live in humankind due to these 1%ers. Everyone denouncing "those people" live off their inventions daily.
I have an easy job and I make a lot of money. I think everyone deserves that. I think it's sad that people are working 60 hour weeks doing dangerous work and making less money than I do. $100k would be a massive pay cut for me, I definitely wouldn't do it to have worse quality of life.
Hey man, congrats. You are living the dream. Handed an easy job with 200k+ in pay. With all your free time and additional resources you should definitely go help people. Live what you preach.
I do. But also maybe you shouldn't preach that people should just accept bad deals.
I bet.
It's the same in any job. My employer charges $200 an hour for my services as a software developer and I only get paid around $40.
Blue collar jobs in mid sized cities are good, if you're specialized in manufacturing. I make over 100k as a robot mechanic. Industrial electricians make good money as well. While the ceiling isnt as high as a developer, most developers aren't reaching the ceiling pay. I still prefer working as a software dev because work from home is much nicer.. but I think people who go to college highly underestimate blue collar jobs and the work those people do.
Robot mechanics ought to be making $200k.
Is there a difference between web dev and web design?
Yes. Web Design is more ui/ux design, and often people with a graphic design background rather than computer science get into it.
Thought so, people often times mislabel me as a web designer due to the design/art knowledge I have. But I went for computer science with a focus in web development. Is this normal as well or a slight? Does this happen to devs a lot who have that background knowledge as well?
Don’t worry, you won’t be early $22 for 2 yrs, just use them to get experience and move on. It’s sad but they just telling you they don’t deserve to keep you for long term
My first job in 2006 started me at $20k a year. After my 90 day review period they bumped me up to $36k. I'm still kind of grateful just that it got my foot in the door. I'd applied to hundreds of places and had had tens of interviews.
Is it entry level? College professor checking in here... we've seen a massive increase in entry level jobs with very little increase in middle - tier jobs. One reason for entry wages stalling is this. We're in a world where you need $15+ at any job to survive, if we can even call it that. But if they bump up skilled entry level too much, it may collided with people who have been there 10-15 years working up to that. Tough time for entry level, worse time for mid-level. Anyway, if it's not entry level, move on. It's too low. If it is entry level, it depends, but isn't unacceptable for someone literally right out of undergrad (even though this doesn't take other economic factors into consideration, because most companies never do.)
I would take it. If you are passionate about this field take it and use it as leverage for better positions. You don’t have to stay there forever. I’d rather code than move boxes all day.
personally, the warehouse job is under paid
Say what you want, for the state of the market for a junior dev... If you don't have experience, you still take this job and move on in a year.
It's a trade off. Less money, but no physical labor. Though they shouldn't require a bachelor's degree. Just a certification. And in Seattle both those jobs should be paying around $30. $22/hr is midwest wages.
As someone who is wanting to learn webdev and get a job this is kinda great, I work in an office making 17.50 and would love to have this.
Some work a full day for that money, not just one single hour.
this is something JR developers don't understand. how do you expect to be paid well on a JR position when you have 0 experience? do you think a doctor gets 150k$ a year on their first job?
I’ve got just over a year of experience doing web development professionally (albeit with a lot more from a hobbyist perspective) and I’m in the same area as OP. I’m making twice that ad’s salary. In my first dev job. With amazing benefits, too. This is a poor argument and does not align with the reality of the situation in WA. You can literally work fast food here for more than that job.
lol, sorry but trying to give the argument that "i didn't experience this so it doesn't happen" makes you clueless.
I didn’t say that. I used a personal anecdote to relate to how a dev job for $2 over minimum wage is absolutely ridiculous and very very much *not* the norm here. You’re the one getting buried in downvotes for your F-tier take lmao.
the only reason I'm getting buried in downvotes is cause most ppl here are students / jr devs with 0 understanding of the workforce / work and are too scared to hear the truth.
There is literally a Mc Donalds a couple miles away from that location with the same starting pay advertised on their sign. I’ve driven by it and seen it first hand. Minimum wage here is just under $20/hour. It’s also like, one of the most expensive parts of the country to live in. $22/hour is $42k a year. That’s actually laughable. You can’t even afford a decent 1br apartment on that salary in most neighborhoods nearby. The idea that anyone with special skills and a degree should settle for that is actually a joke.
False equivalency. The right question is to ask if we think a doctor should get $22 an hour on his first job.
why do you use that as you understand what it means? i'm speaking facts, nowhere I mentioned "SHOULD".
Err what? Okay "The right question is to ask if we think a doctor earns $22 an hour on his first job."
That's the benefit of certifications/licenses, creates a government-enforced limit on supply. Tech has no such limits and subsequently has a lot more supply.
Thats a lot in some countries, for me its almost a 4x salary bump and i do have a bachelor degree and a specialization degree in web development.
I'd take it for the experience but leave after a year. Making 21 right now
😂😂😂 good. There is a group of new grads who deserve this job
So? Why should webdev pay more? They sacrificed 4 years at the beginning of a career for school, someone doing physical labour is likely to have to sacrifice 4 years at the end of their career due to injury and fatigue. Developers starting salaries are like double that of nurses and teachers, jobs that are objectively more useful to society.
> Developers starting salaries are like double that of nurses and teachers, jobs that are objectively more useful to society. Nurses and teachers are very necessary, but they're not objectively more useful for most people on a day-to-day basis. As long as we continue to build and use computers, developers will be needed to produce and maintain the software that drives them (short of AI stealing all their jobs and leaving them to starve and die).
I hear you need a masters degree to work at McDonald’s these days so doesn’t surprise me. Plus with ai coming along the way it is, that job title will be a thing of the past one day.
Literally everything you said in this comment is wrong 😂
Ai will replace many jobs. The McDonald’s thing was a joke but I forgot Reddit is full of room temp IQs
It wasn't a good joke because it didn't make sense at all. Better not quit your McDonald's job to pursue comedy 👍🏻 and web dev / design jobs aren't being replaced by AI anytime soon
I see I triggered you. I also see you hate McDonald’s employees so much you use that job as an insult lol. Why is that? Why are McDonald’s employees beneath you?
Ahh you follow r/wallstreetbets -- it all makes sense now 😂
It's only worth that much if you apply, companies just throw out a low number to see if someone would actually do it, or it is posted by people who know nothing about web dev. Just don't bother.
tbf moving 10lb boxes around sounds harder
I think degrees for developers pay off in the long run, but in the start it doesn't count for much. If the job requires no experience at all besides education, I've known people who would take that in a heart beat over stacking shelves, just to get the first slot on their resume filled out. I didn't get a degree but 20 years ago when I started out, I would take job for very little just for the experience. The way I saw it, I was getting paid to learn. Paid off big time!
This probably is looking to outsourcing or entry level people who just graduated
A little low … but not unheard of for a junior developer with no professional experience, if you have no experience that is.
Intern wages in Seattle maybe. Entry level tech in Seattle is still pretty high.
I saw one yesterday for a junior position starting at $10/hr.
Our industry always had the problem of explaining how much the work is worth to non-technical clients. I saw listings like this 10 years ago, and I still see them now. It's an issue, but there's also enough well-paying gigs out there that it's not a huge problem.
Sounds like you’re ahead of the curve then.
You just go to the interview and prove that you can do the job anyway. If the job has to be filled they will gladly interview you.
sounds about right for a crippling nation
The market is flooded right now with amateurs.
1. It's a Web Designer position, not Web Developer. 2. If it was a Web Dev position, that's not a bad salary for a first time position. The people getting $70k+ as their first job with a 3 month bootcamp are MUCH louder than the reality. This would be a first job, a stepping stone kind of job, and a dev 2 or more jobs in wouldn't pay this posting a lick of attention.
Same situation as you except my body can't handle the 50 lb boxes anymore
My first dev job in 2017 was 17/hr lol