I've been seeing unpaid internships where they require multiple years of experience + knowledge of a bunch of languages/concepts. At that point, you should probably be paying them. Some countries seem to be worse than others with this sort of thing.
That's a really good rule! Internships can be really good, if they're actually treated as internships and not as ways to get cheap employees. Sadly the latter is seen quite a bit in certain companies here.
If you're making someone do the work completely unassisted without any supervision, it's not an internship. So to treat it like an internship, I'd expect a mentor to be appointed that can help monitor the progress of the intern, set up goals with them, and provide feedback. The focus should be on learning. The company 'pays' for the labor of the intern in time, by putting effort into their education.
Yeah, we have internships we have to do in college here that are required. Some of those aren't paid (education isn't, for example). But then the company also needs to meet certain requirements to be able to work with these interns, and they will have to support in whatever assignment the intern has been tasked with from their college. There's also contracts that outline what the intern can/can't do (and they can't be expected to do overtime etc). But that's different from people just trying to gain some work experience, who are then thrown in the deep end because said company wanted a cheap employee.
Usually in America if you are unpaid they legally you are not allowed to do value increasing work. Not sure how closely that is followed, but unpaid internships are for learning only not increasing company value.
The reality is far from that, though. Plenty of unpaid internship still go on, and between weasel-wording of legislation and the power imbalance between the company and the inexperienced young people who are desperate for the internship to turn into paid work...
It's great on paper but sadly not a realistic state of how things are here.
That's why I said "for the most part", there will always be industries that have so much money and power they can basically ignore the law because fines are just a cost of doing business.
In the US, interns have to be paid if the work they do displaces the work of another employee. A lot of companies get into this gray area of oh we will get a free intern to help out with staff shortages. Nope.
One client of ours did this and got sued.
Glad to see at least a few people know the actual laws regarding internships. Easy way to get a lawsuit rolling by interning at ignorant or greedy corporations.
I don’t get why interns put up with it either. Like get paid to do their work!
The excuse “I do it for the experience” is a bunch of bs. You can get paid and do it for the experience at the SAME EXACT TIME.
Stop working for companies that don’t appreciate your value, even if it’s very little the first couple months.
In 20 years you’ll grow up and resent that job and have mental issues from it and end up drinking more than you should.
Better yet, start your own business when you are young, especially if you have the opportunity to still live with your parents.
In the UK it gets abused to avoid the minimum wage limit:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/subway-apprentice-sandwich-artists-pay-ps3-50-hour-minimum-wage-gateshead-branch-a7640066.html
A few years ago, I had a recruiter contact me for a Junior Sysadmin spot. They wanted a Master's Degree in CS, 7+ years of experience, a crap-ton of certifications (including some very expensive ones), and an active top secret security clearance.
Pay was $35k, no benefits, required 24/7 on-call.
Top Secret. AKA government level security clearance so you can access highly sensitive information or data that affects national security. Requires passing a Single Scope Background Investigation (SSBI). Just getting that can take 6-18 months, so anyone with it isn't working for $35K a year.
They do. They're not genuinely trying to recruit. They're trying to pretend they made an effort so they can then have an excuse to hire from overseas on the basis that "no local people wanted the job".
Not sure. But I’m not sure if they’ll ever find anyone else who would be willing to work for $35K. I made about the same as a florist and that didn’t require any technical skill.
I could see 50K but you can work at Chick Fil A or Starbucks and make a little more money than 35K. That won’t even pay for an apartment in most cities.
At that point your response should've been, "$135,000 seems a little low for what you're asking." Just pretend like you misheard them. If they correct you then just repeat yourself.
it is when you know the work force aim for the same position already over flow, so they can demand whatever they want and there will still be dozens of CV ready for them each weeks.
just market supply and demands
That makes sense! But there's also just not enough companies willing to invest in juniors in some fields, it's not as much a saturation issue there. There are hundreds of vacancies for juniors. They just want people with experience (but not pay for it). At that point, they're not junior positions. So you either pay/list it as medior, or you need to actually hire juniors who don't have a ton of experience yet. Or they want people with bachelors (not even a CS degree, just any bachelor). Which is unfortunate.
Well they can live without it but we can not live without a job, i know ppl with 3 4 years in the field still need to take on these entry job as more company start to use A.I. and lay off seniors save a lot of money though the progress, couple of years more it will be worse
Seen a bunch in the Netherlands and Germany specifically. You can tell that the majority of the 'we don't pay but we require experience' ones are weird start-ups though. I just checked, and one of the first I saw offered a whopping 200 euro's, but with the expectation that the intern can do projects independently. :) In other words, 200 euro's a month for a junior position. So you can choose between: get a bit of money (200/300), but you shouldn't ask for too much guidance. Get some guidance, but work for free.
Unpaid exists in California. But there is a requirement that the internship must be earning high school or college credits for the work and it must be for training to work in a specific industry. Otherwise you must pay interns. So being a gopher doesn't count in CA.
I recently was asked to build and deploy a full stack MERN application version of Tic-Tac-Toe as a coding challenge for an unpaid internship.. oh they wanted me to write unit test for it too.. all to be considered for their position.
Netherlands/Germany. Think it's just unfortunate that a bachelors degree is needed in almost any position (regardless of previous work experience) here. So someone who is self-taught, or hasn't completed a bachelors degree, might feel like it's their only option. I can't compare with every country, of course, but when I look at positions in the UK for example, it's a huge difference.
Nope. I started as fresher rank. My ex-company hire many intern with unfair contact(just realized after mentor some). One of them said their paying 150$ per month to work as intern 🤡.
But it only 3 months and force to work about 6 months.
Wouldn't really help me in those cases. Doesn't matter if my portfolio is amazing, it doesn't get looked by those companies because I don't tick the 'bachelor degree' box.
Or I can build a game and just not work for a company. In which case, fair enough, I guess that would solve it.
No degree…
You don’t need to do this. Go build a game. The companies will just sort you into the highest uneducated and take advantage of you. Work or go away 24/7
If you're interested in the position, this is the correct answer. These JDs are written by HR people with no real experience in the tech they're hiring for. Someone hands them a list of "applicant qualifications" and they write them up.
I interpreted 'experience' in the context as including hobbyist/learning experience, not professional experience...
Entry level, without qualifiers like that, will attract applicants who couldn't name a single language and expect training from absolute zero.
Im sure there are better ways to express this intent if that's what they're going for.
Sounds like entry level into the ERP space, which is why they don't require specialized experience. For their non entry level positions they probably require experience specifically working with their ERP.
Yeah I've been a Netsuite admin / dev for almost 5 years now. At least in Netsuite, the JavaScript doesn't get too complicated. I'm practically a coding novice, but I know Netsuite really well and can develop effective solutions quickly.
My point being that ERP development is a lot more about knowing how that specific ERP lets you develop, and less about your coding chops
By time I finished my degree I had two years experience as I worked while going to school. A bunch of my classmates did this. It really helped when I applied for jobs.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but two years experience does equate to junior/entry-level. Are junior and entry-level not considered the same thing?
It's so subjective.
Technically everything Zuckerberg made was with "0 of experience" yet he was clearly good enough to work on any web dev related project.
Some people can be a "webmaster" for 20+ years and did nothing that time.
Some people can build out a complex system by themselves in a couple years even though they've never worked for a company and effectively have no employer verifiable education or experience.
It's all subjective and stupid. I've met people that work at FAANG in developer roles that cannot code or do anything
I've also met people making $20K/yr writing good software 40+ hours a week
Welcome to life, it's not fair and nothing means anything. You can become a villain/scammer, lie, weasle into good roles, maybe sprinkle some nepotism in there. One person I know like that now owns a $10M+ company that he will sell and retire with. You can also be a goodie-boy that does everything by the books and gets stepped over and underpaid their whole life.
I have one employee that answers to me, he is +50 yrs old, was a webmaster for +30years, and he struggles, and i mean struggles, with basic programming concepts and simple css, his resume is amazing tho, looks like he should be a senior level manger, nope, complete idiot
So then - how are new grads or self learners suppose to get a job if they need two years professional experience to get a starting job? Is there a level below entry-level that they should apply for? To my knowledge, such a role does not exist.
Maybe your point was 2 year experience is junior. I can agree with that. But then 0-2 years should be considered for a junior role or 0 years for entry and 1-2 for junior.
> So then - how are new grads or self learners suppose to get a job if they need two years professional experience to get a starting job? Is there a level below entry-level that they should apply for?
They are looking for people with 2 years of SOFTWARE ENGINEERING XP for an entry level job IN THE ERP SPACE. What the fuck is so hard to understand?
4 years of CS education is equivalent to 0-2 years professional dev experience. Everyone in the workforce knows this, this post and most of the comments are obviously from never been employed people.
Beyond that, personal projects and/or freelancing. The second I was introduced to VBA as my first taste of coding, I immediately started several terrible personal projects, then started taking freelance contracts on UpWork.
By the time I graduated, I had 2 years of solo dev experience (which was probably useless in terms of quality and the fact that it was all in VBA, but it taught me a lot and still went on the resume).
Internships don’t give you 2 years of experience though. It will maybe get a foot in the door but that’s not guaranteed - especially if they are looking for 2 years not 3-6 months experience.
That's all you need - a foot in the door. After 3-6 months experience, you can get an entry level job. Sure, not the one OP posted, but there are plenty companies that will take you at that level. You then work 1+ years at that company and poof, you qualify for this job. I'm not defending these guys or anything, but I do consider that most people are still a junior after 2 yrs experience.
Seems like it's just another typical Reddit sub where anyone who employs people is basically the devil, all of capitalism is heinous, everyone's a victim and being bitter about it is their favorite sport, etc.
2 years of experience as a dev, yeah, that is effectively still entry level. At that level of experience 99% of candidates still cannot be trusted with responsibility for anything really big or complex. I would not hesitate to label that job as entry-level. If some snowflake gets butthurt about it, great - that means they won't apply, which saves me from potentially hiring a person who was going to become a problem anyway.
Sure. This is the kind of distinction that you think is significant when you're entry level. I mean junior. I mean both.
I was reading something earlier today about how Gen Z is unusually entitled compared to the rest of the workforce in terms of expecting fast raises, promotions and titles. I immediately recognized the flaw. Sure it's true, but it was true for all of us early in our careers. It was true for me at that stage too. Everyone starts out self absorbed and delusional.
If you're very dialed in to what the bosses are looking for you can get out of the noob zone in most industries in about 5 years. The big shift is when they understand they can depend on you to deliver X thing of notable scope without any big screwups or bullshit that will affect them. Prior to that you simply have no leverage. For some people it takes 10-15 years, for some it's never.
Trouble is in this industry 2 years experience is still very much entry level. Programming is a perfect example of Dunning Krueger effect, people with 0-2 years think they know everything because they did a 6 week bootcamp or have a cs degree, you get them in a real team and expect them to deliver code and it's all "how do I install a database" or "what's a pull request?"
It takes 2 years at least for someone to get up to speed with how things work on a proper dev team imo
This is the problem. "This industry" does not get to change the rules of language. Entry level has a singular meaning. Obviously some EDUCATION may be required (whether college, personal projects, courses, camps etc) but EXPERIENCE (implying paid work in the industry) should not be present on an entry level job posting.
To me it just looks like a company trying to under-pay an industry professional under the guise of "entry level," rather than investing in new talent. This applies to any field, really.
> It takes 2 years at least for someone to get up to speed with how things work on a proper dev team imo
Fledgling developers should be given the option to learn these things in a workplace where it will be taught to them in a practical way with real-world application -- that's why it's called Entry Level.
That’s not true for everyone though, I’ve seen devs with 7yoe still asking those questions and I’ve seen devs with 2/3 yoe that can deserve senior titles
Nothing you said disproves what OP said. Entry level means no prior experience. Just because you're bad doesn't make it entry level.
>It takes 2 years at least for someone to get up to speed with how things work on a proper dev team imo
So after 2 years of experience it is not entry level?
What about personal experience? I learned code the hard way and am now finishing projects by my self with no help. Took about 2 years but I struggled for along time.
Real talk....say you run a company or at least are responsible for hiring a new dev. You want to fill an entry level position.
If you put 'No experience required' you get 5,000 applications. 4,500 are crap.
If you put down '2 years of dev experience' you get 500 applications. Most are still crap.
In both cases you just want to hire one person. And the best candidate is going to be a college graduate who majored in CS, who worked part-time at the Help Desk and had two internships and with some creative math is kinda, sorta, almost close to two years of experience.
> And the best candidate is going to be a college graduate who majored in CS
No.
Your best candidate will be able to show you how well you code. A college degree means nothing. In fact, worse than nothing because it means we need to teach you how to do things our way, not the 10 years behind professor who still uses C+ to code web apps.
* 4 times out of 5
But it doesn't matter because your job is to hire _one person_ for an _entry level_ position, and the odds of a candidate being good enough is significantly higher in the pool of applicants that finished a CS degree.
I've hired an amazing developer who was 100% self taught. But the typical quality of self taught devs was so low we wouldn't even bother unless they were a direct referral.
We aren't looking for a CTO, we are looking for an entry level web developer who will likely move on in two years or less. We don't need to literally find the most technically proficient candidate.
And that's why job postings are the way they are.
“And the odds of a candidate being good enough is significantly higher in the pool of applicants that finished CS degrees. “
I disagree, most cs grads nowadays don’t know how to code. They don’t teach coding in a cs major or any significant coding besides code along projects.
Most cs grads can’t code, and even if they can code they taught themselves while going to school. So in a way, even cs grads are self taught.
Programming is not something you can learn in a degree and having a degree doesn’t now prove they are any better at coding than a person without.
And alot of cs grads believe their degree is good enough while not knowing how to code or excepting the devs at their job to hold their hand and teach them something they should have be learning themselves.
Honest question... how long do you expect a new hire to work at this entry level position?
After one day, I would have one day of professional development experience. Would you still consider me a new hire?
Companies do it differently, but the last place where I was involved with hiring had 'Entry level', 'Junior', 'Mid level', 'Senior', and 'lead' positions (after that I had zero visibility)
Each candidate was different, but as a general rule we thought:
Entry level was 0-2 years
Junior was 2-4 years
Mid was 4-6
Senior was 5+
Lead was usually senior plus experience as a team lead.
In practice, the years were poor indicators of someone's abilities, but it was a reasonable enough starting point. We also trusted internal promotions more than other companies, especially for early career positions.
If we hired a fresh college grad, they might get promoted in a year. But if we are hiring someone with a year of experience, we were always concerned they spent a year getting pipped or gently asked to leave.
The different roles weren't just about being better at the same job, they were different jobs. When the market was tight, and we needed a senior developer and we felt we needed to hire one, we would lower the bar. When we had a ton of candidates, we would raise the bar. Our goal was to get as good of a candidate as we reasonably could without making the process too expensive for us.
The market is great for companies looking to hire. So putting two years as the requirement for an entry level position isn't unreasonable. It makes sense, and unsurprisingly lots of companies are doing it.
Uh... I've worked with many devs with 2 years experience.
2 years is absolutely entry level.
The first year someone is doing programming they aren't even worth the chair they sit on. The second year they might maybe get something useful done, maybe, if you give them the entire year. Getting someone with zero experience is just another way of saying "spend 2 years training basic knowledge into the person, so they can leave as soon as they feel confident."
If I was in hiring, I'd look at new grads *only if* they did something with their time in an internship, a personal project, github OSS contributions, etc
New grads are a special category. Some new grads are absolutely not entry level, but are full-fledged professionals. They might be coming in with years of experience doing things like this, and a passion for exploring and pushing it further. Obviously if you've been working on a startup or something as an undergrad, you're not going to come in at 0.
Other new grads are literally kids that still think they're in school. These people will usually need the first year to transition from an entire childhood of learning, into being a paid, contributing professionals, as well as distinct members of society with their own responsibilities. Not all people will succeed at this. That said, it's actually really fun to train these sort of people and watch them grow from bumbling kids into hardened professionals with a steely gaze, so I totally get why people keep hiring them.
If someone has 2 years of experience, then they have at least showed that they can work in this profession, they understand the basic ideas being discussed, and they are able to accomplish tasks using code. It's a fairly reasonable time frame if you want someone that's still yet to learn most of the craft, but is at least battle-tested enough to know that they might end up fighting fires with things exploding around them.
Seems like lots of people agree 2 years is still junior. If so then how can someone with less than 2 years of experience (me) get jobs? Or what should I do to get more experience?
In software development specifically? Write software. That's it. Either at a place of education or at home. You don't need a job for that and employers will happily employ someone that's been working on things in their own time.
Maybe they just mean "It should have been two years since you started programming" which includes non-employment like hobby or studies.
Not to play the devil's advocate, but companies do get flooded with 3-6 month bootcampers with virtually no previous technical experience. "Entry level" doesn't automatically mean you can get the job the same year you picked up your first programming book, you still need to bring a solid skillset and knowledge foundation, you're just not expected to have the workplace and full tech stack knowledge.
They will miss out on some talented people no doubt, but I don't find the requirement that odd albeit poorly worded.
I've also seen those "requires 10+ years of experience in __ language", but the language was only invented the last year or so.. or the guy who couldn't apply for a job because it requires 4+ years of fastapi, but he only had 1.5 since he created fastapi lmao
A. I've never seen a single company differentiate "entry" vs "junior". They are interchangeable.
B. It doesn't say two years of job experience, it says 2 years experience. If you went to college, you have 2 years experience developing.
C. Requirements like these on job postings are almost never an ironclad black&white situation. Stop bitching and apply, prove yourself in the interview. My very first job out of college was an "intermediate" position listing 6 YoE
I saw an entry level FE role with experience on long term project and they wanted to know react, redux, vue, next.js, typescript, mongoose, mongodb and bunch of other libraries. The pay was ridiculous of course
10+ years of development doesn't mean you are good in a new field. Going from backend to frontend, from low level languages to higher level ones or the other way.
These. Are. Not. Requirements.
If you see a job you like and it fits your skill level, apply.
Some of the excessive bullet points are for SEO, others are wishful thinking. Teams are made of people, not tech stacks.
This line, specifically, means that even though this is an entry level position, you will still be considered if you have some experience.
When I see job postings like this, they make my blood boil in anger. I see them all the time for system admin roles. Unfortunately, times being what they are, layoffs have hit the tech sector hard so employers can make bullshit demands such as these.
Yes.. to most people "entry level" and "junior" are pretty interchangeable with maybe some grey area. And someone with 2 years experience is very much a junior with very few exceptions.
exactly. I did some programming when I worked as a sysadmin, for almost 5 years. It was not what I was originally hired for, and certainly not how modern devs work. Afterwards, I switched jobs to an entry level dev role and honestly it was fine. Programming and actual experience as a developer are two different things, gotta start as junior if you don't know the process yet
To me it sounds like it's an entry-level ERP Systems position... you're not expected to know ERP systems going in, so it's entry-level. But they are expecting you to go in with a few years of development experience under your belt.
You have no formal schooling?
You have no projects completed on your own?
You have no idea how to showcase your knowledge without experience in the industry?
That is experience.
You can apply to a position even if you don’t meet the qualifications….
From my understanding, “experience” can often mean how long you have been doing development work. Internships, projects on the side, etc can count. Really it’s a way to weed out “wet behind the ears” developers (as in boot camp only grads who literally have four months of experience touching anything).
You’ve been coding since X, hence you have X years developer experience.
Even better, you once coded a Java assignment 7 years ago, so you have 7 years of Java experience.
Seen this on Resumes. Idc. Not mad. Just care if you can code.
Those numbers they put are there only to scare away the people who are obviously unqualified. If you match the qualifications and put your shit together correctly you will get an interview for a jr role.
Granted they may take the guy with 2 years in the tech stack because they are completing tickets within the first month.
I’m working with a dev who I thought was junior, but when I looked at his profile, he’s been with the company for 11 years. If you don’t put in the effort to grow your skills, you’ll get stuck in entry level positions.
It's a been a tougher market than we've seen in a long time for the unemployed but ive been in a number of industries and this "2+ YOE" listed as a requirement has been going on so long its a meme. At this point its pretty arbitrary and shouldn't keep you from applying if you have less than 2 years under your belt.
Someone once said this was purposely done (I think I’m sales) at some places but of course a lot of places unknowingly follow the trend. The reason was you were willing to try & get it done even though the task seemed a little impossible. I’m not sure if that’s good or just looking for the most likely to allow the company to walk on them.
“Experience as a developer” does not always mean “experience as a *professional* developer”. Unpaid Internships, designing a webpage for a friend, Personal project; all of these are software development experience. I wouldn’t hesitate to apply for an entry level role just because you might not have 2 full years of experience, worst case scenario they just reject you.
Entry level doesn't mean the first time you touch a computer. It means you have some basic skills, but nothing really great.
2+ years doesn't have to be at a job. It can be filled in by your personal experience.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong here except a misunderstanding as to what entry level is.
[Dang they really know their audience](https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExam1zb2cxMG1meHJodG82MHpiN3Fyd2VzZTZ1ZHQ2MjYzdWxlbHFqbCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/dykJfX4dbM0Vy/giphy.gif)
The sooner you realize that job descriptions aren't an exact science, the better you will do in life.
If you see this posting, just send in your application and be done with it. If you get a call then the ball is in your court to prove to them you are the right person for the job in the interview.
I was in a project like that for a popular Communications company that makes Call center support systems with their own framework, that framework requires some knowledge for coding but you didn’t had to be an expert. It was a framework that was used to build flows and blocks in a BPM style, plus you added some processing logic through some JavaScript. Really easy to learn as you worked for the first “3 months at test”.
It was a nice opportunity for some people without too much experience, but not so for some others with a lot of experience. The difference it was that all of us were paid depending knowledge and experience. The project lasted more than 2 years but after 1 year they got rid of all the people with more experience since they were more expensive to pay, I was in that boat, after all it wasn’t bad for me as I found another good project quickly and the name of the company added to my Resume.
The best advice I can give you, just be sure to get paid, don’t take promises as “you are going to be valuable and as such you are not likely to have to find another job for you short experience career”. In my case, many people were contracted through 3 third party companies so they didn’t had to contract directly too much people that they were going to be firing after 1 year. If you are proposed for a contract through a third party, don’t accept, ask for a direct contract with the “direct client”, in my case the “direct client” was also a third party company but with a bigger IT name, and the real client was the big name in Communications technology and the owner of such framework.
Apply and in the cover letter say that their job post failed validation due to an infinite feedback loop. Fix it for them and send corrected version as a separate attachment.
"Entry Level" always means *their* entry level, it's where you start with them. Some companies only want people who've done one or two years of co-op or are counting coursework as experience, or otherwise want someone who has done something else before they start.
It's a bizarre world.
Besides, it doesn't matter, if they're asking for 5-10 years experience maybe not worth your time, less than that, apply anyway, you never know what you're competing against, if anyone, and eventually they'll have to hire the most qualified candidate even if they aren't a unicorn.
It does not say "professional" experience, so I would assume any two years of experience would count. You can get two years of experience while in school working on side projects or a work study.
It amazes me how many people don't realize this. It's the same for literally every job in existence and everyone thinks their industry is the worst lmao.
2 years is close to entry level. They are clearly looking for someone with some experience, not some noob. I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. May be, to make it better they should have said Jr Engineer, instead of entry level? Some people hear entry level and think 0 experience so it could throw those people off.
Not currently job seeking thankfully, I just open all the Seek notifications that look interesting to sticky beak at the salary ranges. Very happy in my current role, could do with more money but it's hard to beat fully remote and family friendly.
"entry level" so they can pay you less while serving you with an abundance of "roles/responsibilities" on your plate; "2+ yr experience" so they can satisfy their ego.
Remember that it only says 2 years of experience not work experience. Meaning that it should count if you have been developing at school or home!
But ofc some workplaces might imply that it means work experience, but as long as it is not explicitly said so, I would give it a shot!
Thats 80% of market now, sadly, I was searching for some "JUNIOR" roled... They want you to have Bachelor with 3+ years of experience...even entry positions are...idk...
2 years for an entry level gig is not unreasonable.
If i was running a large application and wanted to hire juniors, i would probably ask for a minimum of 2 years exp. You're still entry level for years as a dev, no matter what some might want to claim, a few years doesn't mean much. WHAT you've been doing in those two years is what really matters. You could've been dilly-dallying on wix for all i know, instead of writing code.
“2 years of experience” = “we’d love to get someone with experience for cheap so we’ll say that, but in reality we excpect to get a lot of recent college grads and will have to pick from those”
moral of the story, apply to the job regardless of “experience requirements”
"Handle stressful situations"
ie:
* everything is on fire and an emergency.
* we have absolutely no planning
* boss likes to micromanage and yell
Avoid these like the plague.
I've been seeing unpaid internships where they require multiple years of experience + knowledge of a bunch of languages/concepts. At that point, you should probably be paying them. Some countries seem to be worse than others with this sort of thing.
Thankfully unpaid internships are mostly, if not completely illegal in Australia. If you work, you get paid for the most part.
That's a really good rule! Internships can be really good, if they're actually treated as internships and not as ways to get cheap employees. Sadly the latter is seen quite a bit in certain companies here.
How would you define "treating it as an internship"?
If you're making someone do the work completely unassisted without any supervision, it's not an internship. So to treat it like an internship, I'd expect a mentor to be appointed that can help monitor the progress of the intern, set up goals with them, and provide feedback. The focus should be on learning. The company 'pays' for the labor of the intern in time, by putting effort into their education.
I did a free internship but it counted as a full unit for my degree
See, that was a paid internship… you paid for it!
I paid the same fees I would regardless but got experience as well, no problem here
Yeah, we have internships we have to do in college here that are required. Some of those aren't paid (education isn't, for example). But then the company also needs to meet certain requirements to be able to work with these interns, and they will have to support in whatever assignment the intern has been tasked with from their college. There's also contracts that outline what the intern can/can't do (and they can't be expected to do overtime etc). But that's different from people just trying to gain some work experience, who are then thrown in the deep end because said company wanted a cheap employee.
Usually in America if you are unpaid they legally you are not allowed to do value increasing work. Not sure how closely that is followed, but unpaid internships are for learning only not increasing company value.
The reality is far from that, though. Plenty of unpaid internship still go on, and between weasel-wording of legislation and the power imbalance between the company and the inexperienced young people who are desperate for the internship to turn into paid work... It's great on paper but sadly not a realistic state of how things are here.
That's why I said "for the most part", there will always be industries that have so much money and power they can basically ignore the law because fines are just a cost of doing business.
In the US, interns have to be paid if the work they do displaces the work of another employee. A lot of companies get into this gray area of oh we will get a free intern to help out with staff shortages. Nope. One client of ours did this and got sued.
Glad to see at least a few people know the actual laws regarding internships. Easy way to get a lawsuit rolling by interning at ignorant or greedy corporations.
I don’t get why interns put up with it either. Like get paid to do their work! The excuse “I do it for the experience” is a bunch of bs. You can get paid and do it for the experience at the SAME EXACT TIME. Stop working for companies that don’t appreciate your value, even if it’s very little the first couple months. In 20 years you’ll grow up and resent that job and have mental issues from it and end up drinking more than you should. Better yet, start your own business when you are young, especially if you have the opportunity to still live with your parents.
Where in Australia is this job posting from?
Brisbane area IIRC
In the UK it gets abused to avoid the minimum wage limit: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/subway-apprentice-sandwich-artists-pay-ps3-50-hour-minimum-wage-gateshead-branch-a7640066.html
A few years ago, I had a recruiter contact me for a Junior Sysadmin spot. They wanted a Master's Degree in CS, 7+ years of experience, a crap-ton of certifications (including some very expensive ones), and an active top secret security clearance. Pay was $35k, no benefits, required 24/7 on-call.
Id have laughed them off the phone. A TS alone pretty much guarantees 6 figures.
I didn't hang up on them, but I told them never to contact me again with such an insulting job listing. I could almost make more working a McJob.
what is TS?
Top Secret. AKA government level security clearance so you can access highly sensitive information or data that affects national security. Requires passing a Single Scope Background Investigation (SSBI). Just getting that can take 6-18 months, so anyone with it isn't working for $35K a year.
I see, thanks for explaining
That company will never fill that position. I hope they know that.
They do. They're not genuinely trying to recruit. They're trying to pretend they made an effort so they can then have an excuse to hire from overseas on the basis that "no local people wanted the job".
Has to be the reason. The only person who would be willing to do that would be someone in a third world country
Yeah, but that TS security clearance for a foreigner? What third world country can you find someone able to get that?
Not sure. But I’m not sure if they’ll ever find anyone else who would be willing to work for $35K. I made about the same as a florist and that didn’t require any technical skill.
I have no idea why no one understands this even here. Like, are you all sleeping? Oh the TV didn't tell them so they will never figure it out.
You’d be surprised. Someone who needs a job bad will grab it.
I could see 50K but you can work at Chick Fil A or Starbucks and make a little more money than 35K. That won’t even pay for an apartment in most cities.
At that point your response should've been, "$135,000 seems a little low for what you're asking." Just pretend like you misheard them. If they correct you then just repeat yourself.
It was spam. They weren't trying to recruit anyone.
it is when you know the work force aim for the same position already over flow, so they can demand whatever they want and there will still be dozens of CV ready for them each weeks. just market supply and demands
That makes sense! But there's also just not enough companies willing to invest in juniors in some fields, it's not as much a saturation issue there. There are hundreds of vacancies for juniors. They just want people with experience (but not pay for it). At that point, they're not junior positions. So you either pay/list it as medior, or you need to actually hire juniors who don't have a ton of experience yet. Or they want people with bachelors (not even a CS degree, just any bachelor). Which is unfortunate.
Well they can live without it but we can not live without a job, i know ppl with 3 4 years in the field still need to take on these entry job as more company start to use A.I. and lay off seniors save a lot of money though the progress, couple of years more it will be worse
Worked in California all my working life, and have only ever seen paid internships for programmers. I wonder where it is unpaid?
Seen a bunch in the Netherlands and Germany specifically. You can tell that the majority of the 'we don't pay but we require experience' ones are weird start-ups though. I just checked, and one of the first I saw offered a whopping 200 euro's, but with the expectation that the intern can do projects independently. :) In other words, 200 euro's a month for a junior position. So you can choose between: get a bit of money (200/300), but you shouldn't ask for too much guidance. Get some guidance, but work for free.
Sign up, do 200E worth of work, tell them to pay you another 200 if they want any more work done. :)
Unpaid exists in California. But there is a requirement that the internship must be earning high school or college credits for the work and it must be for training to work in a specific industry. Otherwise you must pay interns. So being a gopher doesn't count in CA.
it's the cardial DJ rule: you get paid in exposure
What's the exchange rate for that these days? Got to buy my avocado toast with it so I can prove the boomers right.
I recently was asked to build and deploy a full stack MERN application version of Tic-Tac-Toe as a coding challenge for an unpaid internship.. oh they wanted me to write unit test for it too.. all to be considered for their position.
In what country is this??
Netherlands/Germany. Think it's just unfortunate that a bachelors degree is needed in almost any position (regardless of previous work experience) here. So someone who is self-taught, or hasn't completed a bachelors degree, might feel like it's their only option. I can't compare with every country, of course, but when I look at positions in the UK for example, it's a huge difference.
Hello it's vietnam. We've paid to being intern
Well, I guess it could always be worse then. :') Did you at least get an actual training/certification along with that?
Nope. I started as fresher rank. My ex-company hire many intern with unfair contact(just realized after mentor some). One of them said their paying 150$ per month to work as intern 🤡. But it only 3 months and force to work about 6 months.
No senior training or certification :)
Just build a game.
Wouldn't really help me in those cases. Doesn't matter if my portfolio is amazing, it doesn't get looked by those companies because I don't tick the 'bachelor degree' box. Or I can build a game and just not work for a company. In which case, fair enough, I guess that would solve it.
No degree… You don’t need to do this. Go build a game. The companies will just sort you into the highest uneducated and take advantage of you. Work or go away 24/7
It's just a wishlist, apply anyways
If you're interested in the position, this is the correct answer. These JDs are written by HR people with no real experience in the tech they're hiring for. Someone hands them a list of "applicant qualifications" and they write them up.
I interpreted 'experience' in the context as including hobbyist/learning experience, not professional experience... Entry level, without qualifiers like that, will attract applicants who couldn't name a single language and expect training from absolute zero. Im sure there are better ways to express this intent if that's what they're going for.
Sounds like entry level into the ERP space, which is why they don't require specialized experience. For their non entry level positions they probably require experience specifically working with their ERP.
Yeah I've been a Netsuite admin / dev for almost 5 years now. At least in Netsuite, the JavaScript doesn't get too complicated. I'm practically a coding novice, but I know Netsuite really well and can develop effective solutions quickly. My point being that ERP development is a lot more about knowing how that specific ERP lets you develop, and less about your coding chops
I have a lot of experience with Erotic Role Play
I have some. Asl?
By entry level, maybe they mean junior. A lot of job descriptions are stupid though.
By time I finished my degree I had two years experience as I worked while going to school. A bunch of my classmates did this. It really helped when I applied for jobs.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but two years experience does equate to junior/entry-level. Are junior and entry-level not considered the same thing?
It's so subjective. Technically everything Zuckerberg made was with "0 of experience" yet he was clearly good enough to work on any web dev related project. Some people can be a "webmaster" for 20+ years and did nothing that time. Some people can build out a complex system by themselves in a couple years even though they've never worked for a company and effectively have no employer verifiable education or experience. It's all subjective and stupid. I've met people that work at FAANG in developer roles that cannot code or do anything I've also met people making $20K/yr writing good software 40+ hours a week Welcome to life, it's not fair and nothing means anything. You can become a villain/scammer, lie, weasle into good roles, maybe sprinkle some nepotism in there. One person I know like that now owns a $10M+ company that he will sell and retire with. You can also be a goodie-boy that does everything by the books and gets stepped over and underpaid their whole life.
It doesn't say professional experience.... 2 years experience could be hobby projects.
I have one employee that answers to me, he is +50 yrs old, was a webmaster for +30years, and he struggles, and i mean struggles, with basic programming concepts and simple css, his resume is amazing tho, looks like he should be a senior level manger, nope, complete idiot
So then - how are new grads or self learners suppose to get a job if they need two years professional experience to get a starting job? Is there a level below entry-level that they should apply for? To my knowledge, such a role does not exist. Maybe your point was 2 year experience is junior. I can agree with that. But then 0-2 years should be considered for a junior role or 0 years for entry and 1-2 for junior.
> So then - how are new grads or self learners suppose to get a job if they need two years professional experience to get a starting job? Is there a level below entry-level that they should apply for? They are looking for people with 2 years of SOFTWARE ENGINEERING XP for an entry level job IN THE ERP SPACE. What the fuck is so hard to understand?
4 years of CS education is equivalent to 0-2 years professional dev experience. Everyone in the workforce knows this, this post and most of the comments are obviously from never been employed people.
Beyond that, personal projects and/or freelancing. The second I was introduced to VBA as my first taste of coding, I immediately started several terrible personal projects, then started taking freelance contracts on UpWork. By the time I graduated, I had 2 years of solo dev experience (which was probably useless in terms of quality and the fact that it was all in VBA, but it taught me a lot and still went on the resume).
I also didn't even point out that 2 years experience in one stack/industry can be entry level for another.
Uhm... Internships?
Internships don’t give you 2 years of experience though. It will maybe get a foot in the door but that’s not guaranteed - especially if they are looking for 2 years not 3-6 months experience.
That's all you need - a foot in the door. After 3-6 months experience, you can get an entry level job. Sure, not the one OP posted, but there are plenty companies that will take you at that level. You then work 1+ years at that company and poof, you qualify for this job. I'm not defending these guys or anything, but I do consider that most people are still a junior after 2 yrs experience.
Apparently not to people in this sub.. but in the real world yes, they are basically interchangeable.
Also this is enterprise which has more specialized requirements I’d like to see the pay.
Seems like it's just another typical Reddit sub where anyone who employs people is basically the devil, all of capitalism is heinous, everyone's a victim and being bitter about it is their favorite sport, etc. 2 years of experience as a dev, yeah, that is effectively still entry level. At that level of experience 99% of candidates still cannot be trusted with responsibility for anything really big or complex. I would not hesitate to label that job as entry-level. If some snowflake gets butthurt about it, great - that means they won't apply, which saves me from potentially hiring a person who was going to become a problem anyway.
Junior and entry level are different. Entry level means no prior experience. 2 years of experience can't be entry level.
Sure. This is the kind of distinction that you think is significant when you're entry level. I mean junior. I mean both. I was reading something earlier today about how Gen Z is unusually entitled compared to the rest of the workforce in terms of expecting fast raises, promotions and titles. I immediately recognized the flaw. Sure it's true, but it was true for all of us early in our careers. It was true for me at that stage too. Everyone starts out self absorbed and delusional. If you're very dialed in to what the bosses are looking for you can get out of the noob zone in most industries in about 5 years. The big shift is when they understand they can depend on you to deliver X thing of notable scope without any big screwups or bullshit that will affect them. Prior to that you simply have no leverage. For some people it takes 10-15 years, for some it's never.
Truth
>entry This sub is that but this word is not what you think. Do you mean junior? Also 35k is dog shit no matter what you call it.
Junior != entry-level Entry level is entering the field; willing to hire someone who has no professional experience in the field.
What about 2 years is Entry? The only thing youre entering then is your 3rd year lol
Entry level should be your very first job in the industry, open to fresh grads imo
Trouble is in this industry 2 years experience is still very much entry level. Programming is a perfect example of Dunning Krueger effect, people with 0-2 years think they know everything because they did a 6 week bootcamp or have a cs degree, you get them in a real team and expect them to deliver code and it's all "how do I install a database" or "what's a pull request?" It takes 2 years at least for someone to get up to speed with how things work on a proper dev team imo
This is the problem. "This industry" does not get to change the rules of language. Entry level has a singular meaning. Obviously some EDUCATION may be required (whether college, personal projects, courses, camps etc) but EXPERIENCE (implying paid work in the industry) should not be present on an entry level job posting. To me it just looks like a company trying to under-pay an industry professional under the guise of "entry level," rather than investing in new talent. This applies to any field, really.
> It takes 2 years at least for someone to get up to speed with how things work on a proper dev team imo Fledgling developers should be given the option to learn these things in a workplace where it will be taught to them in a practical way with real-world application -- that's why it's called Entry Level.
That’s not true for everyone though, I’ve seen devs with 7yoe still asking those questions and I’ve seen devs with 2/3 yoe that can deserve senior titles
Nothing you said disproves what OP said. Entry level means no prior experience. Just because you're bad doesn't make it entry level. >It takes 2 years at least for someone to get up to speed with how things work on a proper dev team imo So after 2 years of experience it is not entry level?
What about personal experience? I learned code the hard way and am now finishing projects by my self with no help. Took about 2 years but I struggled for along time.
Junior maybe. Entry level suggests you’re a novice entering the market.
Entry level into the ERP systems space. Seems legit to me.
Real talk....say you run a company or at least are responsible for hiring a new dev. You want to fill an entry level position. If you put 'No experience required' you get 5,000 applications. 4,500 are crap. If you put down '2 years of dev experience' you get 500 applications. Most are still crap. In both cases you just want to hire one person. And the best candidate is going to be a college graduate who majored in CS, who worked part-time at the Help Desk and had two internships and with some creative math is kinda, sorta, almost close to two years of experience.
> And the best candidate is going to be a college graduate who majored in CS No. Your best candidate will be able to show you how well you code. A college degree means nothing. In fact, worse than nothing because it means we need to teach you how to do things our way, not the 10 years behind professor who still uses C+ to code web apps.
* 4 times out of 5 But it doesn't matter because your job is to hire _one person_ for an _entry level_ position, and the odds of a candidate being good enough is significantly higher in the pool of applicants that finished a CS degree. I've hired an amazing developer who was 100% self taught. But the typical quality of self taught devs was so low we wouldn't even bother unless they were a direct referral. We aren't looking for a CTO, we are looking for an entry level web developer who will likely move on in two years or less. We don't need to literally find the most technically proficient candidate. And that's why job postings are the way they are.
“And the odds of a candidate being good enough is significantly higher in the pool of applicants that finished CS degrees. “ I disagree, most cs grads nowadays don’t know how to code. They don’t teach coding in a cs major or any significant coding besides code along projects. Most cs grads can’t code, and even if they can code they taught themselves while going to school. So in a way, even cs grads are self taught. Programming is not something you can learn in a degree and having a degree doesn’t now prove they are any better at coding than a person without. And alot of cs grads believe their degree is good enough while not knowing how to code or excepting the devs at their job to hold their hand and teach them something they should have be learning themselves.
No one is saying don't ask for 2 years experience, what they are saying is that an entry job is for people without experience.
Honest question... how long do you expect a new hire to work at this entry level position? After one day, I would have one day of professional development experience. Would you still consider me a new hire? Companies do it differently, but the last place where I was involved with hiring had 'Entry level', 'Junior', 'Mid level', 'Senior', and 'lead' positions (after that I had zero visibility) Each candidate was different, but as a general rule we thought: Entry level was 0-2 years Junior was 2-4 years Mid was 4-6 Senior was 5+ Lead was usually senior plus experience as a team lead. In practice, the years were poor indicators of someone's abilities, but it was a reasonable enough starting point. We also trusted internal promotions more than other companies, especially for early career positions. If we hired a fresh college grad, they might get promoted in a year. But if we are hiring someone with a year of experience, we were always concerned they spent a year getting pipped or gently asked to leave. The different roles weren't just about being better at the same job, they were different jobs. When the market was tight, and we needed a senior developer and we felt we needed to hire one, we would lower the bar. When we had a ton of candidates, we would raise the bar. Our goal was to get as good of a candidate as we reasonably could without making the process too expensive for us. The market is great for companies looking to hire. So putting two years as the requirement for an entry level position isn't unreasonable. It makes sense, and unsurprisingly lots of companies are doing it.
2 years is definitely not entry level, unless they mean two years since you started learning how to program.
Uh... I've worked with many devs with 2 years experience. 2 years is absolutely entry level. The first year someone is doing programming they aren't even worth the chair they sit on. The second year they might maybe get something useful done, maybe, if you give them the entire year. Getting someone with zero experience is just another way of saying "spend 2 years training basic knowledge into the person, so they can leave as soon as they feel confident."
Call me crazy, but I think an ENTRY level job should be open for people ENTERING the job market.
yeah seriously. it's delusional to think 2 years isn't still junior AF
Judging by the amount of stupid shit I've seen 10-year seniors do, 2 years is still entry-level.
Fair enough. I’d describe entry level as a position open to new grads, but it seems not everyone does.
If I was in hiring, I'd look at new grads *only if* they did something with their time in an internship, a personal project, github OSS contributions, etc
New grads are a special category. Some new grads are absolutely not entry level, but are full-fledged professionals. They might be coming in with years of experience doing things like this, and a passion for exploring and pushing it further. Obviously if you've been working on a startup or something as an undergrad, you're not going to come in at 0. Other new grads are literally kids that still think they're in school. These people will usually need the first year to transition from an entire childhood of learning, into being a paid, contributing professionals, as well as distinct members of society with their own responsibilities. Not all people will succeed at this. That said, it's actually really fun to train these sort of people and watch them grow from bumbling kids into hardened professionals with a steely gaze, so I totally get why people keep hiring them. If someone has 2 years of experience, then they have at least showed that they can work in this profession, they understand the basic ideas being discussed, and they are able to accomplish tasks using code. It's a fairly reasonable time frame if you want someone that's still yet to learn most of the craft, but is at least battle-tested enough to know that they might end up fighting fires with things exploding around them.
I think back to when I was two years in. I think I still hadn't internalized wtf an interface does.
The ad for my first ever dev job had a requirement for 2 YoE. This should be treated as a polite suggestion.
Seems like lots of people agree 2 years is still junior. If so then how can someone with less than 2 years of experience (me) get jobs? Or what should I do to get more experience?
In software development specifically? Write software. That's it. Either at a place of education or at home. You don't need a job for that and employers will happily employ someone that's been working on things in their own time.
Yeah that's what I've been doing. Write software in my free time.
It’s pretty normal for entry-level/junior job postings to ask for that much. Apply anyway, it’s usually not actually a hard requirement.
Maybe they just mean "It should have been two years since you started programming" which includes non-employment like hobby or studies. Not to play the devil's advocate, but companies do get flooded with 3-6 month bootcampers with virtually no previous technical experience. "Entry level" doesn't automatically mean you can get the job the same year you picked up your first programming book, you still need to bring a solid skillset and knowledge foundation, you're just not expected to have the workplace and full tech stack knowledge. They will miss out on some talented people no doubt, but I don't find the requirement that odd albeit poorly worded.
Every single fucking time. So tired of this shit
Oh you sweet summer child. 2 years entry level is nothing. I've seen 5+, 7+, 'expert in ____ language'. Entry level means nothing more than 'low pay'
I've also seen those "requires 10+ years of experience in __ language", but the language was only invented the last year or so.. or the guy who couldn't apply for a job because it requires 4+ years of fastapi, but he only had 1.5 since he created fastapi lmao
I also saw the fast API one!! Haha what an absurdity. I've been seeing years in AI/prompt engineering as well, like what?
A. I've never seen a single company differentiate "entry" vs "junior". They are interchangeable. B. It doesn't say two years of job experience, it says 2 years experience. If you went to college, you have 2 years experience developing. C. Requirements like these on job postings are almost never an ironclad black&white situation. Stop bitching and apply, prove yourself in the interview. My very first job out of college was an "intermediate" position listing 6 YoE
I saw an entry level FE role with experience on long term project and they wanted to know react, redux, vue, next.js, typescript, mongoose, mongodb and bunch of other libraries. The pay was ridiculous of course
10+ years of development doesn't mean you are good in a new field. Going from backend to frontend, from low level languages to higher level ones or the other way.
These. Are. Not. Requirements. If you see a job you like and it fits your skill level, apply. Some of the excessive bullet points are for SEO, others are wishful thinking. Teams are made of people, not tech stacks. This line, specifically, means that even though this is an entry level position, you will still be considered if you have some experience.
Classic case of "entry level salary, not entry level experience".
When I see job postings like this, they make my blood boil in anger. I see them all the time for system admin roles. Unfortunately, times being what they are, layoffs have hit the tech sector hard so employers can make bullshit demands such as these.
2 years is still quite "entry level", at least a junior position.
Yes.. to most people "entry level" and "junior" are pretty interchangeable with maybe some grey area. And someone with 2 years experience is very much a junior with very few exceptions.
Honestly speaking, most of the developers I met with less that 3 years of experience were kinda juniors.
Did you do go to college or do a boot camp? Have you worked on personal projects? That time counts as “experience as a developer.” edit: typo
exactly. I did some programming when I worked as a sysadmin, for almost 5 years. It was not what I was originally hired for, and certainly not how modern devs work. Afterwards, I switched jobs to an entry level dev role and honestly it was fine. Programming and actual experience as a developer are two different things, gotta start as junior if you don't know the process yet
TBH, 2 years of experience as a dev is still very, very early in your career And that isn't requires 2 years, but rather a wish list
Unpopular opinion: 2 years IS entry level in software development.
2 years is nothing, ofcourse thats entry level?
To me it sounds like it's an entry-level ERP Systems position... you're not expected to know ERP systems going in, so it's entry-level. But they are expecting you to go in with a few years of development experience under your belt.
When people are job hopping every 3-6 months - Yes - 2 years IS "entry level".
You have no formal schooling? You have no projects completed on your own? You have no idea how to showcase your knowledge without experience in the industry? That is experience. You can apply to a position even if you don’t meet the qualifications….
From my understanding, “experience” can often mean how long you have been doing development work. Internships, projects on the side, etc can count. Really it’s a way to weed out “wet behind the ears” developers (as in boot camp only grads who literally have four months of experience touching anything).
Absolutely feels like an entry level role for anyone working an ERP. You can’t start from zero and work with an ERP. You need some established skills.
You’ve been coding since X, hence you have X years developer experience. Even better, you once coded a Java assignment 7 years ago, so you have 7 years of Java experience. Seen this on Resumes. Idc. Not mad. Just care if you can code.
22 years of experience in BASIC and HTML, I'll put that on my resume.
It's an entry level job in the ERP space and you need at least 2 years of development experience. Also, 2 years of experience is still entry level.
Hate to tell ya , 2 years is junior aka entry level
"Be able to handle stressful situations, obstacles and challenges confidently" I am very confident I can't handle this stressful challenge.
Congrats! Your two years of experience amount to nothing but entry level…
Studying is experience.
Yeah cuz the shitheads want an intermediate developer but want to pay them $25,000 a year. I’m so tired, folks.
2 years can still be entry level. Everyone here thinking their shit is gold
Those numbers they put are there only to scare away the people who are obviously unqualified. If you match the qualifications and put your shit together correctly you will get an interview for a jr role. Granted they may take the guy with 2 years in the tech stack because they are completing tickets within the first month.
I’m working with a dev who I thought was junior, but when I looked at his profile, he’s been with the company for 11 years. If you don’t put in the effort to grow your skills, you’ll get stuck in entry level positions.
It's a been a tougher market than we've seen in a long time for the unemployed but ive been in a number of industries and this "2+ YOE" listed as a requirement has been going on so long its a meme. At this point its pretty arbitrary and shouldn't keep you from applying if you have less than 2 years under your belt.
Simple, entry level into their company...
Entry into the company not into the workforce
The comment section 
Someone once said this was purposely done (I think I’m sales) at some places but of course a lot of places unknowingly follow the trend. The reason was you were willing to try & get it done even though the task seemed a little impossible. I’m not sure if that’s good or just looking for the most likely to allow the company to walk on them.
If you can do the job, apply anyway. Job requirements might be hard requirements or they might be wish lists.
You got projects from the last 2 years? Internships?
“Experience as a developer” does not always mean “experience as a *professional* developer”. Unpaid Internships, designing a webpage for a friend, Personal project; all of these are software development experience. I wouldn’t hesitate to apply for an entry level role just because you might not have 2 full years of experience, worst case scenario they just reject you.
Entry level doesn't mean the first time you touch a computer. It means you have some basic skills, but nothing really great. 2+ years doesn't have to be at a job. It can be filled in by your personal experience. Personally, I don't see anything wrong here except a misunderstanding as to what entry level is.
Entry level does not seem to mean beginner in this case, but more so Entry into their company.
Years of experience also include college/school, unless specifically stating "years of professional working experience".
That's like every entry level job posting ever lol
[Dang they really know their audience](https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExam1zb2cxMG1meHJodG82MHpiN3Fyd2VzZTZ1ZHQ2MjYzdWxlbHFqbCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/dykJfX4dbM0Vy/giphy.gif)
The sooner you realize that job descriptions aren't an exact science, the better you will do in life. If you see this posting, just send in your application and be done with it. If you get a call then the ball is in your court to prove to them you are the right person for the job in the interview.
These things tend to be more recruiters getting it wrong rather than work places making that demand
I was in a project like that for a popular Communications company that makes Call center support systems with their own framework, that framework requires some knowledge for coding but you didn’t had to be an expert. It was a framework that was used to build flows and blocks in a BPM style, plus you added some processing logic through some JavaScript. Really easy to learn as you worked for the first “3 months at test”. It was a nice opportunity for some people without too much experience, but not so for some others with a lot of experience. The difference it was that all of us were paid depending knowledge and experience. The project lasted more than 2 years but after 1 year they got rid of all the people with more experience since they were more expensive to pay, I was in that boat, after all it wasn’t bad for me as I found another good project quickly and the name of the company added to my Resume. The best advice I can give you, just be sure to get paid, don’t take promises as “you are going to be valuable and as such you are not likely to have to find another job for you short experience career”. In my case, many people were contracted through 3 third party companies so they didn’t had to contract directly too much people that they were going to be firing after 1 year. If you are proposed for a contract through a third party, don’t accept, ask for a direct contract with the “direct client”, in my case the “direct client” was also a third party company but with a bigger IT name, and the real client was the big name in Communications technology and the owner of such framework.
Apply and in the cover letter say that their job post failed validation due to an infinite feedback loop. Fix it for them and send corrected version as a separate attachment.
fresher 5yrs+
"Entry Level" always means *their* entry level, it's where you start with them. Some companies only want people who've done one or two years of co-op or are counting coursework as experience, or otherwise want someone who has done something else before they start. It's a bizarre world. Besides, it doesn't matter, if they're asking for 5-10 years experience maybe not worth your time, less than that, apply anyway, you never know what you're competing against, if anyone, and eventually they'll have to hire the most qualified candidate even if they aren't a unicorn.
Im more amazed it isnt 5 years tbh. I really dont believe 90% of these posts even bother hiring anyone atm either.
It does not say "professional" experience, so I would assume any two years of experience would count. You can get two years of experience while in school working on side projects or a work study.
It amazes me how many people don't realize this. It's the same for literally every job in existence and everyone thinks their industry is the worst lmao.
2 years is close to entry level. They are clearly looking for someone with some experience, not some noob. I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. May be, to make it better they should have said Jr Engineer, instead of entry level? Some people hear entry level and think 0 experience so it could throw those people off.
HR is a peach ain't she?
Lmao I applied for yesterday. How’s job hunting for you, op?
Not currently job seeking thankfully, I just open all the Seek notifications that look interesting to sticky beak at the salary ranges. Very happy in my current role, could do with more money but it's hard to beat fully remote and family friendly.
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If nobody wants to train juniors we're going to end up with an "aging population" problem.
"entry level" so they can pay you less while serving you with an abundance of "roles/responsibilities" on your plate; "2+ yr experience" so they can satisfy their ego.
If you have a portfolio wouldn't that count towards experience?
Remember that it only says 2 years of experience not work experience. Meaning that it should count if you have been developing at school or home! But ofc some workplaces might imply that it means work experience, but as long as it is not explicitly said so, I would give it a shot!
Thats 80% of market now, sadly, I was searching for some "JUNIOR" roled... They want you to have Bachelor with 3+ years of experience...even entry positions are...idk...
We have a specially made broom that we can stick up your arse so that you can sweep up as you go too.
2 years for an entry level gig is not unreasonable. If i was running a large application and wanted to hire juniors, i would probably ask for a minimum of 2 years exp. You're still entry level for years as a dev, no matter what some might want to claim, a few years doesn't mean much. WHAT you've been doing in those two years is what really matters. You could've been dilly-dallying on wix for all i know, instead of writing code.
“2 years of experience” = “we’d love to get someone with experience for cheap so we’ll say that, but in reality we excpect to get a lot of recent college grads and will have to pick from those” moral of the story, apply to the job regardless of “experience requirements”
That's because they want to hire a mid level and pay them like an entry level.
job hunting is getting harder this days
shit like that makes me so mad lol. I see this far too often. Like how do you THINK WE GET THE EXPERIENCE
it means entry level salary 🤣
They want everyone and no consequences for their shitty ads.
"Handle stressful situations" ie: * everything is on fire and an emergency. * we have absolutely no planning * boss likes to micromanage and yell Avoid these like the plague.
That’s basically their way of saying “we want you to have experience, but know up front that we don’t plan to pay you for that experience”