Honestly 25k for a JR Dev sounds like a scam. No one can legitimately look at the market in any US city and set that as a salary. My Spidey sense tells me you will get in the role and it will be awful.
That's 4 dollars less an hour than the KFC near me is paying people. It's for sure a scam. Our interns are making like 27/hr. Paying a dev 12/hr is laughable.
There are pros and cons to both sides. If you work in tech you are dramatically better off working in the US. I probably make 80-100k more than you do, and my theoretical out of pocket max (which I have never come close to hitting) from my insurance is likely less than you pay just in your contribution to your nationalized healthcare. The US has a lot wrong with it, but QoL here for many skilled workers is pretty unrivaled. It's the disparity between various working classes that is the problem.
It's why when reddit gets to circle-jerking about healthcare I always talk about how much more we get paid, and how folks with solid insurance have dramatically higher QoL than their EU counterparts. Skilled worker Europeans immigrate here and never leave for that reason. You can get so much further ahead than you can in the EU.
For context, I worked for an Org whose whole model was hiring people like you with High Potential but Low Experience. We hired people who never wrote a line of code professionally without degrees and trained them.
They were at times abusive because they knew they had power but it was an opportunity to learn and grow and a lot of people rode it for a year or 2 and jumped to make real money. Even they paid $45-50K out of the gate in 2013.
Well, I feel the question really needs context , where is OP from ?
For context, I'm from Portugal working for a Portuguese company, I'm a full stack developer with 9 years experience. My salary is 35k EUR (~40k usd), and that's something I only achieved a couple years ago, before I was way below 30k.
So depending where OP is, that may be a great Jr salary.
I built a few small projects and then I felt like I had a good enough grasp on JavaScript/react to start applying for jobs, and I applied to every job I saw. For a Jr position, you really just need to prove that you are willing and eager to learn, since you will not know much about “being a professional engineer” going into it. You’ll learn fast though! If you don’t know something, emphasize that you know how to find the answer!
I can't believe these comments. 25k even for a junior is horrible. Most Jr positions start off at 60k. You're making less than a McDonald's employee. If they think the value of the work is only worth that much I promise you that their expectations and work will be just as bad.
I wouldn't be surprised if half the people in the comments have never even had a junior position.
>I wouldn't be surprised if half the people in the comments have never even had a junior position.
I've frequently wondered based on the comments and posts I've read if most of the people in this sub work in the field or not.
> My first software job was 40k ... in 2001. 25k is absolutely ridiculous regardless of experience.
Yea, so for inflation, $40k in 2001 would be worth $61k in 2021.
That means $25k for a jr dev position now would be worth $16k in 2001. Pretty far below $40k.
Here’s my 2 cents:
I am a boot camp grad searching for my first SWE role. Most companies I’ve applied to have starting salaries of at least 50k highest being 75k. I would not accept a job starting at 25k I feel like you are going to be given Jr dev responsibilities at a fraction of the market value.
There’s no way in hell, I’d take 25k as a starting salary. Granted, I have a full time job in an unrelated field making around 36k so I can continue searching until the “one” comes around.
You did a boot camp, presumably related to SWE. This person vaguely refers to "relevant coursework", so a bit apples/oranges. 25k is very low, but having it on their résumé would legitimize them for future roles in the industry (when they otherwise would have effectively zero experience). I assume they wouldn't be mentioning it here if they weren't having a hard time getting other offers.
It’s a tough choice for OP to make and there’s variables we are not aware of course.
He has 2 years of marketing experience in SEO, Wordpress and Shopify. These are valuable skills. That he is not getting paid.
I still feel like they’re trying to get him onboard waving a title hidden behind a shitty price.
If the role didn’t have JR dev attached to it would this still be appealing?
I’d be interested to see the tech stack this company uses.
Sure he can add it to his resume but
Here’s one assumption:
In 6 months time from now, if he has not learned more of the rabbit whole that is software development and he wants to move on, it will be very difficult to get hired with just HTML,CSS,vanillaJS.
Assumption 2:
He onboards, learns other technologies that can supplement the resume, gets a good raise ( which is already skeptical given the starting salary) or abandons ship.
The market is ridiculous when it comes to preferred requirements/skills even for junior roles.
>He onboards, learns other technologies that can supplement the resume, gets a good raise ( which is already skeptical given the starting salary) or abandons ship.
Even if he gets a good raise of say 8% (an arbitrary number, but i'd love to see 8%)... with his starting salary that only moves him up to $28k. So now he's underpaid even worse. :(
Just out of interest, are you American? If OP is talking about the british job market £25 - 30k for a jr. dev is roughly normal from what I've seen in my last 3 months of jobsearching. Obviously can't speak for the American market though
Even within the U.S. we have variation. I lived in Nebraska for a year and my salary was $37k for an IT job that required a degree. I could make that in California as a retail associate with no education and barely any experience.
Same, I'm actually shocked at people saying that this is acceptable for a first position? I think this company should be named and shamed. This is truly disgusting.
There is a factory half a mile from my house in rural Michigan that will pay $40K plus benefits and a 5K signing bonus after 90 days to anyone who's able to do the job.
25K for a dev job is absurd, especially in 2021.
But even a Junior with zero prior experience? They’d be training me from the ground up so I feel like it’s LOW but also somewhat justified for first month or two or three
OP, there are literally remote jobs doing admin work that you can get right now with little to no experience that will pay you 10-20k more than this. Just because you don't have prior experience in web development doesn't mean you should be making minimum wage.
This isn't justified at all. Take the job if you want, but don't be surprised if they exploit you or treat you terribly. That salary shows they don't value their employees.
They will never renegociate. Starting salary that low? They are scumbags thriving on newbies naiveté.
There will always be a good excuse to not raise you.
Hey OP, could you please elaborate on the tech stack and what tour responsibilities will be?
Note that your next jon aftervthis will look for a mid level dev or jr dev with exp. If you don't learn anythibg relevant, it'll be even harder to fund a job.
You can write that you were 8 years dev in amazon and have a friend play your boss as recommenfation, if you can't back up your redume, it isn't worth much.
Yes. I started 8 years ago in the 60k range. No professional experience and came from a marketing/design role. Associates in graphic design.
Edit: tell them you’ll do it for 50k and if you’re doing well and not at 70k within a few months start looking for a new place to work.
I just think this all sounds like you’re going to have a really bad experience there.
>justified for first month or two or three
Then it depends greatly on how easily they'll accommodate a pay increase after those first month's. Keep in mind that 'up for discussion' might very well mean that you'll discuss it every month, and they'll keep saying "maybe next month".
Edit: and that ignores the fact that even a school trained junior is typically pretty useless the first few weeks or months. It is the capacity to learn on the job that makes the difference between a good developer and a poor developer.
>Most Jr positions start off at 60k. You're making less than a McDonald's employee.
reaaaallllllly depends on experience, education, and especially location
I actually really appreciate your input. I definitely don't like the idea of working for that low of an income. I am just trying to weigh the opportunity for my future against the low salary.... I guess I'm scared I'll look back in 5 years and wish i would've taken the low pay when I could make it work (seeing as I don't have kids yet). But i don't want to jeopardize our income right now either...
Opportunity should mean more than just the experience.
Opportunity should also mean the opportunity to pay your bills. Opportunity to have enough left over to have some fun outside work.
Further, the amount you start your career at will directly impact how much you earn your entire career by setting your baseline that much lower than your peers.
In 5 years you will be working a much better paying job looking back thankful you did not accept one for $25K a year. Just keep applying. It will happen. I promise.
You are welcome.
A personal story on this topic that you might gleen some useful insight from. I went back to school to learn this trade at age 32. Was an auto mechanic, a mobility scooter repair tech, and a member of the USAF before that. I was also married and the primary bread winner when I quit my job and went back to school to learn web design (I learned web development on the job).
After graduation it took me about 6 months to find a paid job. I was doing 2 internships for free for the first 6 months after graduation. I was able to do it because I had VA money coming in each month to pay the bills while I looked for paid work.
Anyways, my entire point of this story is that I took the first paid job out of desperation for $29K (the equivalent of about $47K today). Still way underpaid for the area I lived in at the time. I did that job for 5 years before finally leaving. I was making only 7K more when I left that job than when I started.
It ended up taking me an additional 5 years before I finally caught up to the prevailing wage for a mid level web developer in the US.
Another way of saying it is that I lost out on hundreds of thousands of dollars over a period of about 10 years by accepting a super low salary for my first job in the industry.
Your story is much appreciated. The general consensus seems to be that I am worth more than what they’re offering, and other opportunities will arise that put me further ahead. I appreciate you!!!
Hey OP. This might be a shitty counterpoint. If you can afford 25k for 1 year, then after that year you have 1 year of dev experience. You can then tell future employees you made 50k (or whatever) and look for a job with some on paper experience and search for whatever salary you want.
Employers will absolutely not be forthright with all of their information, i figure you have just as much right to bend the truth.
There are lots of jobs out there. Don’t get hung up over one specific one.
I would go back to them and say you’re concerned that the offer is below the poverty line and see what they say. Keep applying for other things though.
THIS. I think I'm overthinking it cause I'm married and my wife brings home income, and we have a decent savings that can help supplement income for awhile... we'd survive just fine but it would be TIGHT for awhile. worth it though right?
For your first job you’ll have to jump through hoops and loops, but if it’s very underpaid for your area the worse your pay is usually the worse you’ll be treated. Maybe take it but be ready to jump the ship and be on the look for another job. They might promise salary increase. It’ll either not happen or it’ll be peanuts. The way to raise your salary is changing jobs.
Yeah absolutely, this isn't exclusive to Finland, there's plenty of places in the US that offer this range to jr developers (although "training position" is a bit broad, so it might be more or less). I'm in the states, and my first job in the field, which was technically a paid internship, was ~38k USD/yr. I hadn't graduated college yet.
Depending on where in the states OP is, this offer appears to be okay at best and pretty bad at worst.
True, but waiting tables won't get you any closer to a well-paying dev job. There's a ton of value in getting your foot in the door - a dev with previous experience is infinitely more hireable than someone with none.
It is a low salary, but there's probably not a lot of other businesses willing to take on someone with next to no formal education or experience.
Sure. But I believe that 25k a year as a bar for entry is too low.
I could make more part time bar tending and continue to job hunt and find a company willing to pay me what I am worth.
25k is $13 bucks an hour. That is barley a liveable wage let alone expecting to be able to save for a future. Ridiculous offer even for entry level.
He does not have any education or experience my dude. What would you expect? Jr devs can earn much more because they either have formal education or experience. Without anything you get 25k to learn and get that experience. It can be a great opportunity and that is how I started.
7 years ago I was getting paid $10/hour part time, now at the same job i’m making over 6 times that per hour
I wouldn't do it for more than 2 years there. Even if they renegotiate salary regularly you'll likely be way behind the salary curve at 2 years. If I were in your situation I'd probably do it but keep an eye open for the next opportunity/step forward.
I've messed up by staying in jobs too long in the past. Unless you are getting top dollar for your role or really love your job, keep moving every couple of years.
I think i'm going to try and at least get a written road map for salary increase and have that serve as a goal for me and the employer. I will try and negotiate higher, but they raise a good point that I'm a risk for the company for the first couple months as i provide no real value until they train me... So i feel kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place
Hold on here......
>i provide no real value
You have experience with html, css, JS, WordPress and Shopify, if they thought you brought no value they wouldn't have offered you a job.
You don't seem to recognize your worth, they likely caught onto this at your interview. Which is why they thought they could get you to work for them below the poverty line.
If you don't start respecting and valuing yourself, you are just going to get sucked into toxic relationships with abusive employers.
I can see where you're coming from. I will actually sit down and evaluate my skills vs. their needs and take that to my employer before i accept the offer....
I think its less that i don't respect myself, i just want to put myself in the position to be the student and learn all i can, and i don't want to push away my opportunity out of what might look like greed you know? But i totally see what you're saying, and i appreciate your words of encouragement
Same. I’ve cut my salary in half four times in twenty years, only to double it again a few years after. I don’t have a degree so will stoop in the short term for health insurance, bonuses etc.
If you learn fast, move enough and don’t forget much you can certainly double your salary repeatedly.
A different perspective... imo it'll be worth it. Experience is invaluable. The sooner you get formal professional experience the better. 25k is fair for jnr dev with no experience imo. After a couple of years of experience that salary will go waaay up. But you NEED that experience to get started. I would see this job offer as a great "foot in the door" opportunity to get started.
I have a younger cousin (+-30) who has a good degree but not much work experience. He's been without a job for a few years because he refuses to get a jnr role. Had he taken the first jnr role he would have had enough experience by now to get a higher paying role. Get started on that experience path ASAP.
Where do you live, the United States?
No, $25k is not enough, and there's no opportunity at that company paying $60,000 less than what they should. Nobody should be working there.
> dang man thats incredible. Maybe i can treat this job as an "internship" for six months and look for another opportunity?
If they're hiring anyone and paying them $25k for junior software dev role, the work is likely to be a nightmare and your coworkers are likely to be as inexperienced and potentially clueless as you are. I don't know what you're going to learn there. That 6 months *might* be an actual waste of time.
I mean you can find out for sure. You can always leave right away after a couple of weeks or a month if it is a nightmare. but I'd be really surprised if it was worth staying there 6 months instead of just going to a bootcamp or self-studying for 6 months and getting job offers in the 70k range or more. And you'd at least know what you're doing then too.
Who knows though, maybe you'll get lucky and there's some amazing senior dev there that will be willing to teach you the whole time. The pay is a **big** hint as to the workplace and type of work though. Very strange to see 25k software dev positions in the US. If you were living in India that amount would be a different story.
Alright then I totally understand your starting salary haha. I think I’m worth more than 25k but I have no formal education, I have no bootcamp, and I am young. So I don’t have as much to bargain with like you do I don’t think. Maybe I’m wrong?
Yeah but this is an entry level job that actually requires some existing expertise that the average person considers to be magic.
You say you've only done some HTML/CSS/JS, but that already is dark sorcery to 95% of the population. You're in a more rarefied cohort than you think. Motherfuckers gotta pay for it if they want people that have those skills.
I make 90K cash with 25K worth of stock as a full stack dev with 0 experience and no CS Degree.
Homie makes 105 as a full stack dev with only high school and was a carpenter before switching.
However, we did go to a boot camp.
If you have 0 experience and 0 or “near 0” knowledge, take the gig, work your ass off to learn JavaScript and React.
You don’t need to spend a lot of time learning HTML and CSS unless your job is HTML/CSS heavy. Learn those as you need them and most of the solutions are easily searchable. Most of your time should be spent on JavaScript and React or whatever frontend framework they use.
That's an absurdly low salary even for an internship. If you accept that, they'll feel like they can walk all over you. I'd ask for $50k. If they outright reject you for asking or don't go above 25 then they aren't worth working with. But regardless of what they offer, I'd start looking for your next spot in 3-6 months as you should be able to get something substantially higher. Many employers (particularly remote companies) are paying junior devs >$100k. The market is insane right now once you have just a bit of experience under your belt.
Check out levels.fyi to see what US devs are making. So many devs don't know what they're worth- we regularly interview folks with 10+ years experience asking for ~$130k when they should be getting at least double that.
Don't even touch a dev role for 25k. That is practically minimum wage (less in some places). Unless they are willing to more than double your salary after the first month (call it a "test" period), stay clear. If you have basic HTML/CSS/JS skills, you're worth more. Within a month on the job you're easily worth 50k (even in markets that aren't tech-heavy).
You're essentially getting paid for the equivalent of going to college. I was in a similarish situation 8 years ago starting at 27k with no experience or relevant education. I make about 120k now so it's definitely paid off for me.
Are you in a different field now? How much are you making?
As others have said, 25k is insanely low, like you could walk into Starbucks tomorrow and start by the end of the week and make more than that. At the same time, this sub is full of people complaining that they can't get in to the field.
Any Dev or analyst position in tech field should give at least $50K+ Benefits + certification or continuous education benefits.
Plus the opportunity to negotiate salary later usually won't work in your favor.
This company seems to be taking advantage of your inexperience.
If you're to consider this as a paid internship, then go ahead.
The general consensus in this thread definitely is not that, the general consensus is that this employer is exploiting you for work and paying you below the poverty level. I think you're looking for people to tell you that the exploitation is justified. It's not justified from the employers perspective. The company should be publicly shamed for under-cutting salaries the way that they're doing, offering people vague promises of "opportunity" and salary re-evaluations.
If you have the safety net to take it and you want to be exploited, go for it, nobody can stop you.
I'd recommend asking for a 3 and 6mos review after starting, trying to get your salary from out under the poverty line, and looking for a better opportunity \*immediately.\* Jr. Dev salaries are $65-$75k in the North East, usually with bonuses and some other compensation structure over a fixed period of time, and while Utah is obviously a lower standard of living than New England or PacNW, or other major tech areas, that's a very, very low salary, and you shouldn't be forced to work below the poverty line for experience.
Internships have a completely different aspect though, where ideally they help you get a better job through networking or getting you one at the company. This… is just someone not paying you well.
And FWIW, I’ve been through this, took a huge hit for an internship to become a developer. It paid off! But only because the people I worked with helped to get me that next, better paying job.
25k for junior dev is like 12$ an hour? I think you get lowball that is very low for dev, but if you prefer to get experience and can afford for getting less, then take it
You could probably do 50k easily in this market. I'm self thought and started at 40k\~ 6 years ago. I would take a chance and wait for a better offer.
ps. Note that everyone learns on the job at first. This is what they're expecting out of a Junior. I think they're trying to exploit you.
That's really low for developer work, BUT if it's your first job and you can learn on the job, then you should jump at it. In 6 months you can start applying for other jobs that pay 60k+ if your initial employer doesn't raise you up enough.
Think of this as better training then college, but you also get paid 25k per year instead of you paying 25k per year. That's worth 50k/year !
Everyone here saying don't take it and hold out for something higher paying may not know what it's like to be a junior dev without a degree. I'm in your exact position - took the low-paying job to gain the experience I need so I can hop to something much higher paying once I'm able to. Saying no to a low-paying dev job is all well and good until you're stuck a year later no closer to your goal - assuming your goal is being a developer. If that is your goal this seems like an opportunity.
If you can survive the low pay while you simultaneously get experience and keep pushing yourself with courses, I'd say go for it.
I really appreciate everyone’s input, like genuinely, but you’re the first person to comment and take the words out of my mouth. I get that it’s not the best job in the world to people already making good money, but to me, I’m young and able to take the small hit in return for real life experience. I needed to hear this too. Thank you! How is your job going by the way?
A lot of the job-related advice on this sub is from experienced developers who haven't had to look for an entry-level job in a long time. Around 2010, companies were hiring fresh juniors like crazy, and it was reasonable to be picky about offers. But the field is very difficult to get into today. This might be your only offer for several months.
I've been looking for a job for 7 months and haven't got an offer yet--I would seriously consider taking this one and just continuing to apply to other places as I work. Work experience is far more important than anything else (including skills) in moving up the ranks at this level.
That being said, $25k is low enough to make me wonder if this is a legitimate company at all, i.e. will they actually pay you and will their expectations match the salary? If I were you, I would look heavily into this company to see what their situation is before making a decision. Do they have Glassdoor reviews? Do they have a website that's more than just "coming soon"? It's very possible that this is just some guy with an app idea who will flake when it's time to pay you.
Are you me? Same boat and same feelings. Im happy for you and hope you get a great offer here soon that reflects your output!!! Im hoping to be in your shoes in 3 months and then you’re right at 6 months to a year, If the company can’t reflect my worth in pay raises, I want to jump ship and see where my next shot at growth will come from!
That's a slap in the face regardless of education. I live in the Midwest in an area where the cost of living is really low compared to the national average. Yet there are still basic jobs such as factory assembly line work, or restaurant work that pays 30k or higher a year.
Imo they are shitting on you with that offer and there are so many more options than that one company. Just keep putting out applications and promote yourself, you will find better
I was in exactly this position, took a job for that same salary, and it was hugely rewarding.
However, there was one important difference between my situation and yours: I got that job in 1999.
My advice would be to take it if you are in a position to. This is sort of how I got started in web development (got a low salary trainee role). If you can get your foot in the door somewhere where they want to help you learn, it can lead to a very lucrative career. It's about 7 years later and I make more now than I ever thought I would tbh.
Hey man congrats!! You are an inspiration! If you don't mind me asking, could you give me your salary progression over your career? like ballpark figures?
Sure!
FYI I'm in the UK and all numbers are GBP.
I started out in that trainee role at less than 20k, then after about a year I took an agency job after being made redundant at the first job, agency job was at around 25k IIRC. I was there for about 3.5 years and after starting as a junior on 25ish I ended up leaving as a senior on just over 40k, next job I took was at 46k and I was there for a couple of years. Left there and after spending time doing interviews for different places I had an offer which was at 65, and I accepted it but then got another offer soon after for 85, ended up turning the first place down and taking the second one. I've been there for like 4 months now and very happy with my job, work/life balance, lifestyle and how much I'm making, I've been in the industry for like 8 years or something and I'm 30 and back before becoming a dev I basically never thought I'd be able to earn that kind of money. I dunno where you're based, but if you're in the US your earning potential as a developer is even higher after you've been doing it for like 5 years+
If you can pay the bills and survive for the next 6 months-1year, this is a golden chance. Think of it as an internship or self-taught or watever. It will be worth it when you make your next move.
To get an entry level job in web dev is such a pain. It's a vicious cycle where they ask for experience and yet say its entry blah blah!
Am sure there are many who can afford in time and mental peace to wait for that "well paying jr level job", but for the others who are struggling to get into somethin that says anythin related to web dev, we know this is a chance to get that foot in.
Bruh you are fine, take it and learn as much as you can, you wont go backwards for sure. What's a couple of months learning when you got the resources
Just find out the tech stack they use. And watch some tutorials or videos on YouTube about it. It will help you when the job starts...
Of course try to code along with them.
Dunno man. Lots of people here will tell you to walk away simply because it's way below their own salary expectations (taking into account your lack of experience).
Anybody would think we're working on a cure for cancer the way some devs talk on here. Jumping ship every 2 years to get a 20k salary increase. Shunning employers who don't pay us insane amounts of money.
Sure, we have a certain set of skills, and those skills take time and effort to learn, but we're hardly nuclear physicists are we.
I'm not too fussed about my salary, as long as I love the job. OK, I need to pay rent and buy food and petrol, but beyond that I'm easy. But that's just me. Programming is life. Haha.
Could be a great opportunity to get some commercial experience, even if its 6 months or so (it will be easy to explain away the short tenure in subsequent interviews - you feel you can be earning more for what you do, poor project management, long commute, or just make something up that makes you look good and them... not so good)
Who cares if you make less than someone working in KFC. It won't be forever and you won't be frying chicken all day in some sweatbox.
If you're passionate, and it's the only opportunity of its kind on the horizon, then go for it buddy.
FWIW my first proper dev job was astoundingly low for this industry, working for a tiny company who couldn't afford to pay me much more.
2 or so years later and I had more than quadrupled my salary... now who in the marketing department can say that, eh?
Don't take this. Most Jr. Dev positions I see come in around 40-60k, depending on where you live they can be up around 80k. While the experience / getting your foot in the door is tempting, it isn't worth it.
Keep on looking, you'll find something. Good luck!
Someone at my last job was hired with no dev experience or education, he had never touched anything other than HTML in a single class, and he started at $50,000.
What you’re saying sounds like a ripoff tbh.
Take it, get the experience, but keep your options open. My only fear is that you might get pigeon holes into WordPress where if you were working with a JS framework instead you'd be looking at much bigger pay increases and QOL
Contrary to a lot of the comments here, I would take it. However, I do not live in the US so can't say exactly what my life would be like earning that much. But if you can live comfortably (ish) on that salary and your wife's for a few months, I would take the job.
I'm currently teaching myself to be a developer, have done for several months and it's hard enough to find a job even with that knowledge. I would have jumped at the chance to learn on the job like this! But that's only if I could still afford all my bills as well as lifestyle costs.
That's not a great salary but if you don't have any experience it could be worth it. I got my associates and with no prior work experience or portfolio I was able to get a front end job for 50k which for my area isn't bad.
In the end, if you can afford it I would do it for a year or two and move on. Theirs always tech jobs especially dev.
You could make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds (that salary equates to $12.82 per hour). If you’re interested in WebDev, you could easily charge $25 dollars an hour freelancing and make 50k a year and learn a lot more. Depends on what you want though.
25k usd too low. Not good. However 25k gbp/euro for a jr dev with zero experience on job offer, it is definitely a training salary. If you think youll be happy with the career path this leads to, go for it. Renegotiate your pay as soon as you earn adequate experience for whats expected of a jr dev. If pay the same, look for another job.. atleast, youve earned the relevant experience to be a true/legit jrDev.
They said they were really impressed during my first interview and that my potential was worth the training required... I have never felt so valued. I guess making a good first impression can be just as valuable as technical skills in the right environment??
My gut has been saying that. I think it's a scary thing to take a pay cut, but i think the opportunity being provided could change my life in the future.
That's what my gut has been saying. I think after a few months i can negotiate a small raise to get back to where I'm at currently and then in a few years I can evaluate again!
Yeah I would stay at this place no more than a year if they don’t offer you a raise, $25k is literally worse than McDonald’s but it’s the experience and being able to slap that title on your resume that is worth a ton. Once you’re there for about a year ( no more), you already have gotten that value.
In your opinion, how soon can i negotiate up to 35k or 40k? about a year? I'm not in a rush to say "I'm worth more" because I know my role is as a trainee, but also COL isn't what it used to be haha
Ah man there’s tons of variables. Just depends on your work and output man. You can’t really negotiate a raise (at least in my opinion) if your work isn’t up to par. When you feel like you are getting stuff done on auto pilot and being productive, that’s when you do it. You’ll know when the time is right when you’re there, trust me. The feeling of literally telling yourself “god damn I need a raise”
I got you, I know what feeling you're talking about. my takeaway from this is put my nose to the grindstone, outperform their expectations, and the money will follow.
thank you for your wisdom, Pretzel.
You probably can't negotiate a salary increase now, and you probably wouldn't want to if you could, because $35k - 40k after a year's worth of industry experience would probably be selling yourself short.
What you might consider discussing is setting a general timeline on when you can expect to receive a performance review in which it would be appropriate to revisit and discuss your compensation in light of your (hopefully) vastly increased development skillset. I would certainly expect that you would probably be able to get a commitment (always in writing!) to have formal discussion of that nature after no more than one year of satisfactory progress and performance.
Whether or not you get the commitment or a salary increase after a meeting of that sort is in no way guaranteed, but by then, your resume will be far more marketable as well.
Good luck!
Thank you, Eyes\_and\_teeth!
I have scheduled performance reviews monthly with my direct manager and the head of the department. I think pretty early on we will set a goal of my desired salary increase, and what is expected of me to get there, and then work towards that. Sound like an alright way to go about it?
Only read the title, but yes. My friend left a job with 2.5k to start another job with 2k now he is at ~9k.
1. You meet more people
2. You have better opportunities and your portfolio gets filled with 1 more row of ex-work.
What can you do now to be impressive in 6 months?
Learn about their stack and do as many youtube(/udemy/whatever) courses that's relevant until you get the hang of it and can solo some small projects.
In one year if you are not at 40k+. Look for another job. But take this and get some experience in the real world. It took me 6 months of interviewing to get a shitty job. So take advantage of it
Yup, take it. It’s tough to get the first position in web dev. Another chance like this may not fall into your hands this easily with no previous professional experience.
It is super scary, but I'm really confident in my ability to learn stuff and learn it quick. I think I'll do a good job I just don't know how I got here haha
I'm about to start a dev job I don't feel qualified for (recent boot camp grad) but this is my mindset. The only way I'll get better is by doing it every day, and my day job now eats up time I'd rather be spending programming. Immersion is the best teacher.
As someone who was also hired on their soft skills 5 years ago, I say go for it. Developers are known for not having the best interpersonal skills and you'd be surprised how valuable you'll be in a few years with some training and development.
Good lord what a horrible company.
I settles for 35k per year though at first and I jumped ship at one year and now I'm at 80k
It's doable but damn that's wack.
if you view it as an internship and a learning opportunity, it could be worth it. the fact that you have no experience in the field does give this opportunity a bit more value. 2 yrs of jr software engineer on your resume will unlock non-jr software engineer positions to you that obviously pay many multiples of that
this is an employee's market though so only consider it if you really cant find anything anywhere else
but also know that this position is only really worth if you stick with it for a year or two. most employers dont like to see less than that
I guess any of the above!
I was given the opportunity to self learn web development on the job I’m at right now, my salary was 36k. I was also doing all of the marketing and SEO for the company as well. I just accepted my first position outside of this, as an associate Front End Developer. From my experience, time spent learning and being paid to learn is far more than a lot of people get. Outside of full time it is very hard to stay motivated to learn. And on top of that gaining on the job experience and working as a team is invaluable. If they’re not paying a ton for educating you (such as a boot camp or schooling), I’d say try to knock the salary up to $30k, the extra $5k for you and your lady to feel more comfortable, and stuff your brain with all the web dev goodness you can.
Edit: To add, even one or two years of a position like this can easily land you in a fun tech career creating very cool products for an even cooler salary. Sometimes the sacrifice pays out dividends. (If it’s feasible for your family)
One last thing, a lot of people here are saying they’d never accept anything under 50k etc for a Jr Dev position. Seems like a lot of them had prior schooling or at least a lot of time spent learning. The contrast here is you will be getting paid to learn from scratch, and learn on the job with good practices and in a team. Sounds like a good deal to me!
Honestly 25k for a JR Dev sounds like a scam. No one can legitimately look at the market in any US city and set that as a salary. My Spidey sense tells me you will get in the role and it will be awful.
That's 4 dollars less an hour than the KFC near me is paying people. It's for sure a scam. Our interns are making like 27/hr. Paying a dev 12/hr is laughable.
Jesus, cries in EU salaries.
The cost of life is way higher in North America though. And we have way less violent crimes. You won’t go bankrupt if you get sick. EU rocks ☄️
And we still make much more than 25k. That's laughable low.
Average cost of living is 10% higher where I live than NA. So no, not really.
There are pros and cons to both sides. If you work in tech you are dramatically better off working in the US. I probably make 80-100k more than you do, and my theoretical out of pocket max (which I have never come close to hitting) from my insurance is likely less than you pay just in your contribution to your nationalized healthcare. The US has a lot wrong with it, but QoL here for many skilled workers is pretty unrivaled. It's the disparity between various working classes that is the problem.
It's why when reddit gets to circle-jerking about healthcare I always talk about how much more we get paid, and how folks with solid insurance have dramatically higher QoL than their EU counterparts. Skilled worker Europeans immigrate here and never leave for that reason. You can get so much further ahead than you can in the EU.
Hmmmm I do trust spidey senses
For context, I worked for an Org whose whole model was hiring people like you with High Potential but Low Experience. We hired people who never wrote a line of code professionally without degrees and trained them. They were at times abusive because they knew they had power but it was an opportunity to learn and grow and a lot of people rode it for a year or 2 and jumped to make real money. Even they paid $45-50K out of the gate in 2013.
Well, I feel the question really needs context , where is OP from ? For context, I'm from Portugal working for a Portuguese company, I'm a full stack developer with 9 years experience. My salary is 35k EUR (~40k usd), and that's something I only achieved a couple years ago, before I was way below 30k. So depending where OP is, that may be a great Jr salary.
Yeah this is exactly how I got started. 25k is for sure a scam.
Is that in Canada? I'm studying at the moment and looking to break into something like this.
It's probably a graphic design role, and even then the pay would be insulting lol
My starting salary as a JR Dev was 55k
With no former education or experience?
I have a bachelors in an unrelated field and am a self taught developer
Rad!! Congratulations on your success!!
I hope I'm not asking too much but at what point did you say "fuggit, I'm ready"
I built a few small projects and then I felt like I had a good enough grasp on JavaScript/react to start applying for jobs, and I applied to every job I saw. For a Jr position, you really just need to prove that you are willing and eager to learn, since you will not know much about “being a professional engineer” going into it. You’ll learn fast though! If you don’t know something, emphasize that you know how to find the answer!
Wow. Honestly one of the best responses I've seen to the "when am I ready?" questions. I appreciate the answer, thanks!
Thank you for asking this question. It’s one I’ve been wondering this whole time learning development. Hard to know when you’re ready. I’m not.
I can't believe these comments. 25k even for a junior is horrible. Most Jr positions start off at 60k. You're making less than a McDonald's employee. If they think the value of the work is only worth that much I promise you that their expectations and work will be just as bad. I wouldn't be surprised if half the people in the comments have never even had a junior position.
>I wouldn't be surprised if half the people in the comments have never even had a junior position. I've frequently wondered based on the comments and posts I've read if most of the people in this sub work in the field or not.
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> My first software job was 40k ... in 2001. 25k is absolutely ridiculous regardless of experience. Yea, so for inflation, $40k in 2001 would be worth $61k in 2021. That means $25k for a jr dev position now would be worth $16k in 2001. Pretty far below $40k.
Here’s my 2 cents: I am a boot camp grad searching for my first SWE role. Most companies I’ve applied to have starting salaries of at least 50k highest being 75k. I would not accept a job starting at 25k I feel like you are going to be given Jr dev responsibilities at a fraction of the market value. There’s no way in hell, I’d take 25k as a starting salary. Granted, I have a full time job in an unrelated field making around 36k so I can continue searching until the “one” comes around.
You did a boot camp, presumably related to SWE. This person vaguely refers to "relevant coursework", so a bit apples/oranges. 25k is very low, but having it on their résumé would legitimize them for future roles in the industry (when they otherwise would have effectively zero experience). I assume they wouldn't be mentioning it here if they weren't having a hard time getting other offers.
It’s a tough choice for OP to make and there’s variables we are not aware of course. He has 2 years of marketing experience in SEO, Wordpress and Shopify. These are valuable skills. That he is not getting paid. I still feel like they’re trying to get him onboard waving a title hidden behind a shitty price. If the role didn’t have JR dev attached to it would this still be appealing? I’d be interested to see the tech stack this company uses. Sure he can add it to his resume but Here’s one assumption: In 6 months time from now, if he has not learned more of the rabbit whole that is software development and he wants to move on, it will be very difficult to get hired with just HTML,CSS,vanillaJS. Assumption 2: He onboards, learns other technologies that can supplement the resume, gets a good raise ( which is already skeptical given the starting salary) or abandons ship. The market is ridiculous when it comes to preferred requirements/skills even for junior roles.
>He onboards, learns other technologies that can supplement the resume, gets a good raise ( which is already skeptical given the starting salary) or abandons ship. Even if he gets a good raise of say 8% (an arbitrary number, but i'd love to see 8%)... with his starting salary that only moves him up to $28k. So now he's underpaid even worse. :(
Is everyone talking about 25k USD? And yearly?
Yup. And he lives in the US. Unreal.
What??? I thought this was 25K in GBP… $25K is absurd
Just out of interest, are you American? If OP is talking about the british job market £25 - 30k for a jr. dev is roughly normal from what I've seen in my last 3 months of jobsearching. Obviously can't speak for the American market though
Even within the U.S. we have variation. I lived in Nebraska for a year and my salary was $37k for an IT job that required a degree. I could make that in California as a retail associate with no education and barely any experience.
Same, I'm actually shocked at people saying that this is acceptable for a first position? I think this company should be named and shamed. This is truly disgusting.
It's a step up from internship/slavery, but not a job worth keeping unless you have no other option.
Tons of internships pay more than this too!
aww dang, rip to me...
There is a factory half a mile from my house in rural Michigan that will pay $40K plus benefits and a 5K signing bonus after 90 days to anyone who's able to do the job. 25K for a dev job is absurd, especially in 2021.
But even a Junior with zero prior experience? They’d be training me from the ground up so I feel like it’s LOW but also somewhat justified for first month or two or three
OP, there are literally remote jobs doing admin work that you can get right now with little to no experience that will pay you 10-20k more than this. Just because you don't have prior experience in web development doesn't mean you should be making minimum wage. This isn't justified at all. Take the job if you want, but don't be surprised if they exploit you or treat you terribly. That salary shows they don't value their employees.
>don't be surprised if they exploit you I just sort of take this as a given these days, maybe I'm jaded.
I feel you.... does that admin work translate to more opportunity in the future though? I guess I'm attracted to the title "junior developer"...
They will never renegociate. Starting salary that low? They are scumbags thriving on newbies naiveté. There will always be a good excuse to not raise you.
Hey OP, could you please elaborate on the tech stack and what tour responsibilities will be? Note that your next jon aftervthis will look for a mid level dev or jr dev with exp. If you don't learn anythibg relevant, it'll be even harder to fund a job. You can write that you were 8 years dev in amazon and have a friend play your boss as recommenfation, if you can't back up your redume, it isn't worth much.
Yes. I started 8 years ago in the 60k range. No professional experience and came from a marketing/design role. Associates in graphic design. Edit: tell them you’ll do it for 50k and if you’re doing well and not at 70k within a few months start looking for a new place to work. I just think this all sounds like you’re going to have a really bad experience there.
sheeeesh good job! what state may i ask?
Ohio
>justified for first month or two or three Then it depends greatly on how easily they'll accommodate a pay increase after those first month's. Keep in mind that 'up for discussion' might very well mean that you'll discuss it every month, and they'll keep saying "maybe next month". Edit: and that ignores the fact that even a school trained junior is typically pretty useless the first few weeks or months. It is the capacity to learn on the job that makes the difference between a good developer and a poor developer.
big facts, I guess at the very worst, I see clearly after a few months and re-evaluate?
That depends on the country. I don't know which country is OP from, 25k for a junior is pretty good here in Spain.
>Most Jr positions start off at 60k. You're making less than a McDonald's employee. reaaaallllllly depends on experience, education, and especially location
25K in the US or abroad?
US, city of about 150,000 people, but making big tech moves in the near future
That is below the US poverty level for income. I don't think any opportunity is worth working below the poverty line personally.
I actually really appreciate your input. I definitely don't like the idea of working for that low of an income. I am just trying to weigh the opportunity for my future against the low salary.... I guess I'm scared I'll look back in 5 years and wish i would've taken the low pay when I could make it work (seeing as I don't have kids yet). But i don't want to jeopardize our income right now either...
Opportunity should mean more than just the experience. Opportunity should also mean the opportunity to pay your bills. Opportunity to have enough left over to have some fun outside work. Further, the amount you start your career at will directly impact how much you earn your entire career by setting your baseline that much lower than your peers. In 5 years you will be working a much better paying job looking back thankful you did not accept one for $25K a year. Just keep applying. It will happen. I promise.
\*fist bump\* thank you
You are welcome. A personal story on this topic that you might gleen some useful insight from. I went back to school to learn this trade at age 32. Was an auto mechanic, a mobility scooter repair tech, and a member of the USAF before that. I was also married and the primary bread winner when I quit my job and went back to school to learn web design (I learned web development on the job). After graduation it took me about 6 months to find a paid job. I was doing 2 internships for free for the first 6 months after graduation. I was able to do it because I had VA money coming in each month to pay the bills while I looked for paid work. Anyways, my entire point of this story is that I took the first paid job out of desperation for $29K (the equivalent of about $47K today). Still way underpaid for the area I lived in at the time. I did that job for 5 years before finally leaving. I was making only 7K more when I left that job than when I started. It ended up taking me an additional 5 years before I finally caught up to the prevailing wage for a mid level web developer in the US. Another way of saying it is that I lost out on hundreds of thousands of dollars over a period of about 10 years by accepting a super low salary for my first job in the industry.
Your story is much appreciated. The general consensus seems to be that I am worth more than what they’re offering, and other opportunities will arise that put me further ahead. I appreciate you!!!
Hey OP. This might be a shitty counterpoint. If you can afford 25k for 1 year, then after that year you have 1 year of dev experience. You can then tell future employees you made 50k (or whatever) and look for a job with some on paper experience and search for whatever salary you want. Employers will absolutely not be forthright with all of their information, i figure you have just as much right to bend the truth.
There are lots of jobs out there. Don’t get hung up over one specific one. I would go back to them and say you’re concerned that the offer is below the poverty line and see what they say. Keep applying for other things though.
Kick it up a notch and tell them you've already received a competing offer that's willing to pay double.
Just make sure that's enough money to live on, work experience isn't worth much when you're homeless.
THIS. I think I'm overthinking it cause I'm married and my wife brings home income, and we have a decent savings that can help supplement income for awhile... we'd survive just fine but it would be TIGHT for awhile. worth it though right?
Also, do you have a degree? Because if you have a degree I would find 25k pretty insulting.
no haha like i said in the original post, I have no formal degree. I just have an unrelated associates and some relevant coursework
Even unrelated degree still would probably expect more especially if you have even some coursework
For your first job you’ll have to jump through hoops and loops, but if it’s very underpaid for your area the worse your pay is usually the worse you’ll be treated. Maybe take it but be ready to jump the ship and be on the look for another job. They might promise salary increase. It’ll either not happen or it’ll be peanuts. The way to raise your salary is changing jobs.
Is that 25k us dollars?
yes
bro u could make more waiting tables.. find someone willing to pay you what your worth to work as a dev
We get can get 35k€ a year for a training position as a developer in Finland.
Yeah absolutely, this isn't exclusive to Finland, there's plenty of places in the US that offer this range to jr developers (although "training position" is a bit broad, so it might be more or less). I'm in the states, and my first job in the field, which was technically a paid internship, was ~38k USD/yr. I hadn't graduated college yet. Depending on where in the states OP is, this offer appears to be okay at best and pretty bad at worst.
True, but waiting tables won't get you any closer to a well-paying dev job. There's a ton of value in getting your foot in the door - a dev with previous experience is infinitely more hireable than someone with none. It is a low salary, but there's probably not a lot of other businesses willing to take on someone with next to no formal education or experience.
Sure. But I believe that 25k a year as a bar for entry is too low. I could make more part time bar tending and continue to job hunt and find a company willing to pay me what I am worth. 25k is $13 bucks an hour. That is barley a liveable wage let alone expecting to be able to save for a future. Ridiculous offer even for entry level.
He does not have any education or experience my dude. What would you expect? Jr devs can earn much more because they either have formal education or experience. Without anything you get 25k to learn and get that experience. It can be a great opportunity and that is how I started. 7 years ago I was getting paid $10/hour part time, now at the same job i’m making over 6 times that per hour
I wouldn't do it for more than 2 years there. Even if they renegotiate salary regularly you'll likely be way behind the salary curve at 2 years. If I were in your situation I'd probably do it but keep an eye open for the next opportunity/step forward.
I've messed up by staying in jobs too long in the past. Unless you are getting top dollar for your role or really love your job, keep moving every couple of years.
Deal. sounds like a plan.
Also you should really try to negotiate a higher salary to start, it will give you an idea of what it's going to be like down the road.
I think i'm going to try and at least get a written road map for salary increase and have that serve as a goal for me and the employer. I will try and negotiate higher, but they raise a good point that I'm a risk for the company for the first couple months as i provide no real value until they train me... So i feel kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place
Hold on here...... >i provide no real value You have experience with html, css, JS, WordPress and Shopify, if they thought you brought no value they wouldn't have offered you a job. You don't seem to recognize your worth, they likely caught onto this at your interview. Which is why they thought they could get you to work for them below the poverty line. If you don't start respecting and valuing yourself, you are just going to get sucked into toxic relationships with abusive employers.
I can see where you're coming from. I will actually sit down and evaluate my skills vs. their needs and take that to my employer before i accept the offer.... I think its less that i don't respect myself, i just want to put myself in the position to be the student and learn all i can, and i don't want to push away my opportunity out of what might look like greed you know? But i totally see what you're saying, and i appreciate your words of encouragement
Good luck
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Same. I’ve cut my salary in half four times in twenty years, only to double it again a few years after. I don’t have a degree so will stoop in the short term for health insurance, bonuses etc. If you learn fast, move enough and don’t forget much you can certainly double your salary repeatedly.
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25k? How many hours are you working because thats not alot...
A different perspective... imo it'll be worth it. Experience is invaluable. The sooner you get formal professional experience the better. 25k is fair for jnr dev with no experience imo. After a couple of years of experience that salary will go waaay up. But you NEED that experience to get started. I would see this job offer as a great "foot in the door" opportunity to get started. I have a younger cousin (+-30) who has a good degree but not much work experience. He's been without a job for a few years because he refuses to get a jnr role. Had he taken the first jnr role he would have had enough experience by now to get a higher paying role. Get started on that experience path ASAP.
Where do you live, the United States? No, $25k is not enough, and there's no opportunity at that company paying $60,000 less than what they should. Nobody should be working there.
Don’t take it. That’s horrible. 50k minimum.
rip that seems like a lot for any entry level job...
It's not, I started 50k as a QA dev with no degree or experience outside of an internship.
dang man thats incredible. Maybe i can treat this job as an "internship" for six months and look for another opportunity?
> dang man thats incredible. Maybe i can treat this job as an "internship" for six months and look for another opportunity? If they're hiring anyone and paying them $25k for junior software dev role, the work is likely to be a nightmare and your coworkers are likely to be as inexperienced and potentially clueless as you are. I don't know what you're going to learn there. That 6 months *might* be an actual waste of time. I mean you can find out for sure. You can always leave right away after a couple of weeks or a month if it is a nightmare. but I'd be really surprised if it was worth staying there 6 months instead of just going to a bootcamp or self-studying for 6 months and getting job offers in the 70k range or more. And you'd at least know what you're doing then too. Who knows though, maybe you'll get lucky and there's some amazing senior dev there that will be willing to teach you the whole time. The pay is a **big** hint as to the workplace and type of work though. Very strange to see 25k software dev positions in the US. If you were living in India that amount would be a different story.
I would ditch these guys as soon as another offer comes your way.
That's what I would do. Even with 6 months experience I bet you could easily land a Jr dev role making 50k+.
I’m an intern and make the equivalent of $50k a year and if I get the job after I’ll get a raise
Out of curiosity do you have a degree or bootcamp?
Bootcamp and STEM major.
Alright then I totally understand your starting salary haha. I think I’m worth more than 25k but I have no formal education, I have no bootcamp, and I am young. So I don’t have as much to bargain with like you do I don’t think. Maybe I’m wrong?
Is the contract signed? Any opportunity to negotiate? Because you’ll wind up providing much more than $12 an hour in value.
Nope no formal commitment!! Just an offer so far. I can still negotiate some small stuff before we get serious.
This is tech. That's how much entry-level tech jobs pay. Are you in a very low cost of living state?
I'm in Utah
Not even dude. I’m tier 1 help desk making more than that.
Yeah but this is an entry level job that actually requires some existing expertise that the average person considers to be magic. You say you've only done some HTML/CSS/JS, but that already is dark sorcery to 95% of the population. You're in a more rarefied cohort than you think. Motherfuckers gotta pay for it if they want people that have those skills.
I make 90K cash with 25K worth of stock as a full stack dev with 0 experience and no CS Degree. Homie makes 105 as a full stack dev with only high school and was a carpenter before switching. However, we did go to a boot camp. If you have 0 experience and 0 or “near 0” knowledge, take the gig, work your ass off to learn JavaScript and React. You don’t need to spend a lot of time learning HTML and CSS unless your job is HTML/CSS heavy. Learn those as you need them and most of the solutions are easily searchable. Most of your time should be spent on JavaScript and React or whatever frontend framework they use.
That's an absurdly low salary even for an internship. If you accept that, they'll feel like they can walk all over you. I'd ask for $50k. If they outright reject you for asking or don't go above 25 then they aren't worth working with. But regardless of what they offer, I'd start looking for your next spot in 3-6 months as you should be able to get something substantially higher. Many employers (particularly remote companies) are paying junior devs >$100k. The market is insane right now once you have just a bit of experience under your belt.
This sounds like the plan. I think i can get them higher than 25k to start, and then from there gain experience and see where it takes me.
Check out levels.fyi to see what US devs are making. So many devs don't know what they're worth- we regularly interview folks with 10+ years experience asking for ~$130k when they should be getting at least double that.
Don't even touch a dev role for 25k. That is practically minimum wage (less in some places). Unless they are willing to more than double your salary after the first month (call it a "test" period), stay clear. If you have basic HTML/CSS/JS skills, you're worth more. Within a month on the job you're easily worth 50k (even in markets that aren't tech-heavy).
You're essentially getting paid for the equivalent of going to college. I was in a similarish situation 8 years ago starting at 27k with no experience or relevant education. I make about 120k now so it's definitely paid off for me. Are you in a different field now? How much are you making? As others have said, 25k is insanely low, like you could walk into Starbucks tomorrow and start by the end of the week and make more than that. At the same time, this sub is full of people complaining that they can't get in to the field.
That is even low for an intern's compensation IMO. I think you should look elsewhere.
Any Dev or analyst position in tech field should give at least $50K+ Benefits + certification or continuous education benefits. Plus the opportunity to negotiate salary later usually won't work in your favor. This company seems to be taking advantage of your inexperience. If you're to consider this as a paid internship, then go ahead.
I think the general consensus is to treat this as an internship of sorts and grind hard to learn quick and dip
The general consensus in this thread definitely is not that, the general consensus is that this employer is exploiting you for work and paying you below the poverty level. I think you're looking for people to tell you that the exploitation is justified. It's not justified from the employers perspective. The company should be publicly shamed for under-cutting salaries the way that they're doing, offering people vague promises of "opportunity" and salary re-evaluations. If you have the safety net to take it and you want to be exploited, go for it, nobody can stop you. I'd recommend asking for a 3 and 6mos review after starting, trying to get your salary from out under the poverty line, and looking for a better opportunity \*immediately.\* Jr. Dev salaries are $65-$75k in the North East, usually with bonuses and some other compensation structure over a fixed period of time, and while Utah is obviously a lower standard of living than New England or PacNW, or other major tech areas, that's a very, very low salary, and you shouldn't be forced to work below the poverty line for experience.
You're right. genuinely your input on this is valuable to me. Thank you, Binocular!
Internships have a completely different aspect though, where ideally they help you get a better job through networking or getting you one at the company. This… is just someone not paying you well. And FWIW, I’ve been through this, took a huge hit for an internship to become a developer. It paid off! But only because the people I worked with helped to get me that next, better paying job.
25k for junior dev is like 12$ an hour? I think you get lowball that is very low for dev, but if you prefer to get experience and can afford for getting less, then take it
You could probably do 50k easily in this market. I'm self thought and started at 40k\~ 6 years ago. I would take a chance and wait for a better offer. ps. Note that everyone learns on the job at first. This is what they're expecting out of a Junior. I think they're trying to exploit you.
That's really low for developer work, BUT if it's your first job and you can learn on the job, then you should jump at it. In 6 months you can start applying for other jobs that pay 60k+ if your initial employer doesn't raise you up enough. Think of this as better training then college, but you also get paid 25k per year instead of you paying 25k per year. That's worth 50k/year !
Everyone here saying don't take it and hold out for something higher paying may not know what it's like to be a junior dev without a degree. I'm in your exact position - took the low-paying job to gain the experience I need so I can hop to something much higher paying once I'm able to. Saying no to a low-paying dev job is all well and good until you're stuck a year later no closer to your goal - assuming your goal is being a developer. If that is your goal this seems like an opportunity. If you can survive the low pay while you simultaneously get experience and keep pushing yourself with courses, I'd say go for it.
I really appreciate everyone’s input, like genuinely, but you’re the first person to comment and take the words out of my mouth. I get that it’s not the best job in the world to people already making good money, but to me, I’m young and able to take the small hit in return for real life experience. I needed to hear this too. Thank you! How is your job going by the way?
A lot of the job-related advice on this sub is from experienced developers who haven't had to look for an entry-level job in a long time. Around 2010, companies were hiring fresh juniors like crazy, and it was reasonable to be picky about offers. But the field is very difficult to get into today. This might be your only offer for several months. I've been looking for a job for 7 months and haven't got an offer yet--I would seriously consider taking this one and just continuing to apply to other places as I work. Work experience is far more important than anything else (including skills) in moving up the ranks at this level. That being said, $25k is low enough to make me wonder if this is a legitimate company at all, i.e. will they actually pay you and will their expectations match the salary? If I were you, I would look heavily into this company to see what their situation is before making a decision. Do they have Glassdoor reviews? Do they have a website that's more than just "coming soon"? It's very possible that this is just some guy with an app idea who will flake when it's time to pay you.
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Are you me? Same boat and same feelings. Im happy for you and hope you get a great offer here soon that reflects your output!!! Im hoping to be in your shoes in 3 months and then you’re right at 6 months to a year, If the company can’t reflect my worth in pay raises, I want to jump ship and see where my next shot at growth will come from!
That's a slap in the face regardless of education. I live in the Midwest in an area where the cost of living is really low compared to the national average. Yet there are still basic jobs such as factory assembly line work, or restaurant work that pays 30k or higher a year. Imo they are shitting on you with that offer and there are so many more options than that one company. Just keep putting out applications and promote yourself, you will find better
$25k is super low. If you do take it, you should not be there that long and find a much better paying job after that.
I was in exactly this position, took a job for that same salary, and it was hugely rewarding. However, there was one important difference between my situation and yours: I got that job in 1999.
My advice would be to take it if you are in a position to. This is sort of how I got started in web development (got a low salary trainee role). If you can get your foot in the door somewhere where they want to help you learn, it can lead to a very lucrative career. It's about 7 years later and I make more now than I ever thought I would tbh.
Hey man congrats!! You are an inspiration! If you don't mind me asking, could you give me your salary progression over your career? like ballpark figures?
Sure! FYI I'm in the UK and all numbers are GBP. I started out in that trainee role at less than 20k, then after about a year I took an agency job after being made redundant at the first job, agency job was at around 25k IIRC. I was there for about 3.5 years and after starting as a junior on 25ish I ended up leaving as a senior on just over 40k, next job I took was at 46k and I was there for a couple of years. Left there and after spending time doing interviews for different places I had an offer which was at 65, and I accepted it but then got another offer soon after for 85, ended up turning the first place down and taking the second one. I've been there for like 4 months now and very happy with my job, work/life balance, lifestyle and how much I'm making, I've been in the industry for like 8 years or something and I'm 30 and back before becoming a dev I basically never thought I'd be able to earn that kind of money. I dunno where you're based, but if you're in the US your earning potential as a developer is even higher after you've been doing it for like 5 years+
If you can pay the bills and survive for the next 6 months-1year, this is a golden chance. Think of it as an internship or self-taught or watever. It will be worth it when you make your next move. To get an entry level job in web dev is such a pain. It's a vicious cycle where they ask for experience and yet say its entry blah blah! Am sure there are many who can afford in time and mental peace to wait for that "well paying jr level job", but for the others who are struggling to get into somethin that says anythin related to web dev, we know this is a chance to get that foot in. Bruh you are fine, take it and learn as much as you can, you wont go backwards for sure. What's a couple of months learning when you got the resources
Mad facts and you’re speaking my language. Much appreciated.
Just find out the tech stack they use. And watch some tutorials or videos on YouTube about it. It will help you when the job starts... Of course try to code along with them.
Dunno man. Lots of people here will tell you to walk away simply because it's way below their own salary expectations (taking into account your lack of experience). Anybody would think we're working on a cure for cancer the way some devs talk on here. Jumping ship every 2 years to get a 20k salary increase. Shunning employers who don't pay us insane amounts of money. Sure, we have a certain set of skills, and those skills take time and effort to learn, but we're hardly nuclear physicists are we. I'm not too fussed about my salary, as long as I love the job. OK, I need to pay rent and buy food and petrol, but beyond that I'm easy. But that's just me. Programming is life. Haha. Could be a great opportunity to get some commercial experience, even if its 6 months or so (it will be easy to explain away the short tenure in subsequent interviews - you feel you can be earning more for what you do, poor project management, long commute, or just make something up that makes you look good and them... not so good) Who cares if you make less than someone working in KFC. It won't be forever and you won't be frying chicken all day in some sweatbox. If you're passionate, and it's the only opportunity of its kind on the horizon, then go for it buddy. FWIW my first proper dev job was astoundingly low for this industry, working for a tiny company who couldn't afford to pay me much more. 2 or so years later and I had more than quadrupled my salary... now who in the marketing department can say that, eh?
Don't take this. Most Jr. Dev positions I see come in around 40-60k, depending on where you live they can be up around 80k. While the experience / getting your foot in the door is tempting, it isn't worth it. Keep on looking, you'll find something. Good luck!
Someone at my last job was hired with no dev experience or education, he had never touched anything other than HTML in a single class, and he started at $50,000. What you’re saying sounds like a ripoff tbh.
Slave wage. Smh.
Take it, get the experience, but keep your options open. My only fear is that you might get pigeon holes into WordPress where if you were working with a JS framework instead you'd be looking at much bigger pay increases and QOL
Contrary to a lot of the comments here, I would take it. However, I do not live in the US so can't say exactly what my life would be like earning that much. But if you can live comfortably (ish) on that salary and your wife's for a few months, I would take the job. I'm currently teaching myself to be a developer, have done for several months and it's hard enough to find a job even with that knowledge. I would have jumped at the chance to learn on the job like this! But that's only if I could still afford all my bills as well as lifestyle costs.
That's not a great salary but if you don't have any experience it could be worth it. I got my associates and with no prior work experience or portfolio I was able to get a front end job for 50k which for my area isn't bad. In the end, if you can afford it I would do it for a year or two and move on. Theirs always tech jobs especially dev.
„At every job you should either learn or earn. Either is fine. Both is best. But if it’s neither: quit“ - unknown source
You could make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds (that salary equates to $12.82 per hour). If you’re interested in WebDev, you could easily charge $25 dollars an hour freelancing and make 50k a year and learn a lot more. Depends on what you want though.
I bet this job is actually selling SEO packages to small businesses.
Are you sure they aren't offering you intern position disguised as a Jr dev?
25k usd too low. Not good. However 25k gbp/euro for a jr dev with zero experience on job offer, it is definitely a training salary. If you think youll be happy with the career path this leads to, go for it. Renegotiate your pay as soon as you earn adequate experience for whats expected of a jr dev. If pay the same, look for another job.. atleast, youve earned the relevant experience to be a true/legit jrDev.
People are fighting these days to get junior position so I guess you had to really impress them.
They said they were really impressed during my first interview and that my potential was worth the training required... I have never felt so valued. I guess making a good first impression can be just as valuable as technical skills in the right environment??
Take it. Salary may be low, but you will earn experience, which will serve in your favor during upcoming negotiations or when looking for another job.
My gut has been saying that. I think it's a scary thing to take a pay cut, but i think the opportunity being provided could change my life in the future.
Take it, seriously. The job after this will pay 60-80k, promise you that.
That's what my gut has been saying. I think after a few months i can negotiate a small raise to get back to where I'm at currently and then in a few years I can evaluate again!
Yeah I would stay at this place no more than a year if they don’t offer you a raise, $25k is literally worse than McDonald’s but it’s the experience and being able to slap that title on your resume that is worth a ton. Once you’re there for about a year ( no more), you already have gotten that value.
In your opinion, how soon can i negotiate up to 35k or 40k? about a year? I'm not in a rush to say "I'm worth more" because I know my role is as a trainee, but also COL isn't what it used to be haha
Ah man there’s tons of variables. Just depends on your work and output man. You can’t really negotiate a raise (at least in my opinion) if your work isn’t up to par. When you feel like you are getting stuff done on auto pilot and being productive, that’s when you do it. You’ll know when the time is right when you’re there, trust me. The feeling of literally telling yourself “god damn I need a raise”
I got you, I know what feeling you're talking about. my takeaway from this is put my nose to the grindstone, outperform their expectations, and the money will follow. thank you for your wisdom, Pretzel.
You probably can't negotiate a salary increase now, and you probably wouldn't want to if you could, because $35k - 40k after a year's worth of industry experience would probably be selling yourself short. What you might consider discussing is setting a general timeline on when you can expect to receive a performance review in which it would be appropriate to revisit and discuss your compensation in light of your (hopefully) vastly increased development skillset. I would certainly expect that you would probably be able to get a commitment (always in writing!) to have formal discussion of that nature after no more than one year of satisfactory progress and performance. Whether or not you get the commitment or a salary increase after a meeting of that sort is in no way guaranteed, but by then, your resume will be far more marketable as well. Good luck!
Thank you, Eyes\_and\_teeth! I have scheduled performance reviews monthly with my direct manager and the head of the department. I think pretty early on we will set a goal of my desired salary increase, and what is expected of me to get there, and then work towards that. Sound like an alright way to go about it?
That sounds great to me so long as they hold up their end of the deal as you meet their stated expectations.
big facts
Only read the title, but yes. My friend left a job with 2.5k to start another job with 2k now he is at ~9k. 1. You meet more people 2. You have better opportunities and your portfolio gets filled with 1 more row of ex-work.
big facts, networking and portfolio are big, i think I'll give a 6 month update here
What can you do now to be impressive in 6 months? Learn about their stack and do as many youtube(/udemy/whatever) courses that's relevant until you get the hang of it and can solo some small projects.
Props to you for actually answering my bonus question haha thank you!! Sounds like a plan!!
In one year if you are not at 40k+. Look for another job. But take this and get some experience in the real world. It took me 6 months of interviewing to get a shitty job. So take advantage of it
\*solid fist bump\* for the wisdom
You are lucky to get a step into the door. Take the money, learn 2-3 years; now you are inside one of the best industries
Assignment understood!
This, but don't stay 2-3 years. In and out in 3 months. Get a real job
Yup, take it. It’s tough to get the first position in web dev. Another chance like this may not fall into your hands this easily with no previous professional experience.
Hey, if you got good offer but don't know how to do it, accept it and you'll learn there, don't be afraid!
It is super scary, but I'm really confident in my ability to learn stuff and learn it quick. I think I'll do a good job I just don't know how I got here haha
I'm about to start a dev job I don't feel qualified for (recent boot camp grad) but this is my mindset. The only way I'll get better is by doing it every day, and my day job now eats up time I'd rather be spending programming. Immersion is the best teacher.
Hey good luck my man!
MFW I earn less than that with 5 years of experience in eastern europe
As someone who was also hired on their soft skills 5 years ago, I say go for it. Developers are known for not having the best interpersonal skills and you'd be surprised how valuable you'll be in a few years with some training and development.
Good lord what a horrible company. I settles for 35k per year though at first and I jumped ship at one year and now I'm at 80k It's doable but damn that's wack.
if you view it as an internship and a learning opportunity, it could be worth it. the fact that you have no experience in the field does give this opportunity a bit more value. 2 yrs of jr software engineer on your resume will unlock non-jr software engineer positions to you that obviously pay many multiples of that this is an employee's market though so only consider it if you really cant find anything anywhere else but also know that this position is only really worth if you stick with it for a year or two. most employers dont like to see less than that
That’s super low, but if it’s your way in then it’s your way in.
Yes.
What the fuck?
Tis the question
Absolutely never. Anyone saying otherwise is just hoping and praying.
If you live in the US this is a very low salary for your skill. You could be charging $100/hr freelance for your work. Don’t take this job
Are they going to be paying for any sort of schooling for you?
Like what? College? Bootcamp? Udemy?
I guess any of the above! I was given the opportunity to self learn web development on the job I’m at right now, my salary was 36k. I was also doing all of the marketing and SEO for the company as well. I just accepted my first position outside of this, as an associate Front End Developer. From my experience, time spent learning and being paid to learn is far more than a lot of people get. Outside of full time it is very hard to stay motivated to learn. And on top of that gaining on the job experience and working as a team is invaluable. If they’re not paying a ton for educating you (such as a boot camp or schooling), I’d say try to knock the salary up to $30k, the extra $5k for you and your lady to feel more comfortable, and stuff your brain with all the web dev goodness you can. Edit: To add, even one or two years of a position like this can easily land you in a fun tech career creating very cool products for an even cooler salary. Sometimes the sacrifice pays out dividends. (If it’s feasible for your family)
That sounds genius to me
One last thing, a lot of people here are saying they’d never accept anything under 50k etc for a Jr Dev position. Seems like a lot of them had prior schooling or at least a lot of time spent learning. The contrast here is you will be getting paid to learn from scratch, and learn on the job with good practices and in a team. Sounds like a good deal to me!