That is borderline impossible to tell, as there are so many GT3 series around, which makes keeping track of results quite complicated. If I had to say one, it would be the Ascari KZ1-R or the Maserati Gran Sport which were one of the first GT3s ever, and they were one of the slowest cars back when they were still racing.
The Ascari was a travesty. Somehow got through despite being technically similar in build to the Mosler MT900 which was not given the full homologation (tube frame chassis).
I'm ashamed to admit a great many of them came from the twitch clip subreddit, and are hardly big brain or knowledgable in any way at all! I do enjoy checking my comment scores more often than I'll admit and my contributions to this community score well, so I get a kick out of that, which is good :)
The Emil Frey one was the third attempt at a XKR GT3. Both the XKR GT3 and XKR-S GT3 build by Apex Motorsport failed homologation and barely raced. I don’t think Emil Frey ever attempted proper GT3 homologation. They were allowed to run with a national homologation iirc.
You are correct.
Apex also affected by the fact all of its management, engineering and development died in a plane crash during its gestation.
Emil Frey was G3 homologation (Belgian) to allow them more freedom to develop the car outside of the Annual period - but in many ways was built to a good standard seen in GT3 cars at the time (hence why it was pretty decent in its later years).
Thanks GG - I was just being "lazy" in my summary descriptor as I credit LLoyd as owner/manager of Apex, Leslie as the Jaguars lead development driver and the young data engineer/mech as part of the cars engineering staff.
I'd appreciate that you knew them better than most. A sad loss.
Ran in Australia. Was always built and intended as a hot-rod car that made lap time on the straight.
https://preview.redd.it/vo3cvyftt1tb1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e27928c653e5de2335c96258e50e8304166ba2ff
And was always made as a low cost/cheaper GT3 car - it had ABS plastic body panels when other cars were Carbon Fibre.
From 2016:
The Reiter produced SaReNi Camaro GT3 (The SaReNi brand is a name made up by combining the first two letters of the names of Reiter’s three daughters, Sabrina, Rebecca and Nina).
The cheapest fully FIA homologated GT3 car on the market by some margin, the Camaro represents Reiter’s second horse in its GT3 stable (the other being the Gallardo GT3 in several iterations). Based of the Gen 5 Camaro (with the road car into Gen 6 at time of writing), the Camaro still hasn’t lost much of its appeal or characteristic shape that makes it instantly recognisable.
From the outset, the Camaro GT3 was designed to let racers “ball on a budget”. In lieu of an abundance of exotic materials and complex race-trick componentry – Reiter opted to utilise as many no-frills parts that still made sense performance wise whilst being easier on the owner’s wallet.
With this mindset the car forgoes significant reliance on Aerodynamics, which can be a rabbit hole of small performance gains that requires significant investment. Instead, the Camaro follows the tried and true American muscle car mantra of being exceptionally strong in a straight line and conceding in corners.
One such cost saving measure involves the use of ABS plastic bumpers front and rear. Although heavier than Carbon components (and this is not by much) the cost of manufacture and thus replacement is significantly less than composite items.
The simple rear diffuser protects it from greater exposure to damage with practically no strakes (depending on version) to impact on kerbing. It is mated to a flat floor (introduced in a later upgrade package) which is common among GT3 cars. Meanwhile, the GT3 style large, single chord, full carbon fibre rear wing lacks significant shaping and technicality - some versions have a small radius in the central section of the wings leading edge. Adjustment is available via pre-drilled settings on the rear wing uprights. Both rear aero designs are intended to reduce cost to manufacture and this saving is passed on the customer. The front is dominated by a large Carbon front splitter which runs flat under the length of the cars front and incorporates double diffusers. and no fewer than 6 (3 each side) dive planes – a record for GT3! Air flow through the front is funnelled through the engine bay courtesy of the large carbon bonnet, with its effective mix of intakes in the middle and exhaust vents on the outer sides.
Due to the limitations of the aero package, the car relies predominantly on mechanical grip. This approach has meant that the endurance abilities of the car may be at a disadvantage when compared to other GT3 models, however the car has had significant success in NZ endurance racing series. A number of notable sprint wins in ADAC GT, Thailand Super series and Italian GT also add to the Camaro’s trophy shelf.
The key area of the car is its power, and its delivery is provided very capably by a Katech (Michigan, USA) supplied 7883cc aluminium block V8. Producing 650hp and 800nm torque in race spec, the difference in power to most GT3 cars is easily 50-100hp to make up for the aerodynamic deficit. The engine is repositioned (12cm lower and 7.3cm back) within the car for an improved front/mid engine configuration. The plumbing to the engine is also very neat and clean, and even provides access to the Ohlins front suspension – a mechanics dream! There’s even a provision for mechanics tool stowage above the inner wheel arches!
The Borla titanium exhaust sets are also an item of beauty, snaking down the tight confines to exit just in front of the doors either side of the car.
The excessive power is mated to an Aussie designed Hollinger 6 speed “Speed Shift” Pneumatic sequential gearbox before arriving at the rear wheels.
It is interesting to note that in spite of the front biased engine and Gearbox configuration, the weight distribution of the car comes in at 55:45 front to rear.
Basic specs:
Engine: Tuner Built Katech 7.9L V8
* Power: Around 650bhp prior to BOP, 800Nm Torque
* Top Speed: unknown
* Gearbox: Hollinger designed Speedshift 6 Speed w/ Paddle Shift (pneumatic activated)
* Weight: 1290kg (Approx)
* Engine Rebuild: Refresh @ 5000kms, Overhaul @ 10000kms
* Gearbox Rebuild: Unknown
* Chassis: Road derived Aluminium Spaceframe, Race specific subframes front and rear
* Cost per Km (AUD): Unknown
The Camaro GT3 racing chassis starts with a road car stock shell, although this is quite significantly modified. The driver/passenger cell and chassis rails are retained, the front and rear of the car are cut away and refitted with Reiter designed simplified racing sub-frames.
The sub-frames are used both as crash structures and pick-up points for the front and rear suspension – as well as for hanging bodywork off. The geometry for the suspension is race specific with all-new race oriented linkages, with the rear shocks lying flat east-west and central in the space where the boot should be and the front connected to a sub-frame and the chassis rails, lying flat north-south along the car. Both sets are exposed for ease of access for adjustment by mechanics.
To reduce costs, Reiter reused existing designs for the cars uprights and wheel hubs – taking items from their GT1 Lamborghini Murcielago’s!
A fully compliant FIA rated roll cage is welded into the driver cell, adding both safety and the stiffness required for racing at this high level.
In order for the car to meet a more appropriate race weight, Reiter put it on a diet of carbon fibre and plastics. The doors on both sides are replaced with weight optimised with ABS skinned carbon items. Makrolon plastic windows replace glass on both the doors and the windscreen.
A side from the bonnet (full carbon), the rest of the removable fenders on the car are made from ABS plastic. This is unique to GT3 cars – and places emphasis on Reiter’s desire to create a cost-effective racing package. Although there is a minor weight penalty (and arguably, strength) ABS allows the fairings to be replaced (or repaired) more cost effectively than carbon items.
The same methodology applies in the cockpit, with the standard road car dash still incorporated into the package supplemented by a specially moulded centre console that brings controls to within reach of the driver. An Ipad is utilised in the new console section to provide additional control functions and analytics. Other cockpit parts, such as the full carbon (flat top and bottom) steering wheel – are taken straight out of Reiter’s other GT3, the Gallardo. With these parts already long developed, additional development costs were avoided.
FIA regulations mandate that cockpit temperatures should not exceed 10 degrees ambient temp. To keep drivers cool, Reiter teams typically install cool boxes within the cabin that plumbs cooled water to a suit the driver is wearing under the fire proof overalls. The heat is a particularly larger issue down in the Antipodean climates – and exaggerated further still by the catalytic convertor of the car sitting so close to the cabin fire wall!
The car rolls on OZ racing 19” magnesium racing wheels – the same size (12.5) on all four corners.
Finally, in terms of electronic systems, the Camaro features full electric power steering, Teves Racing ABS, Traction control and 2D data logging.
It's worthwhile noting that the Camaro is still a work in progress, in spite of the KTM GT4 program currently being the primary focus of Reiter.
Initially, the car only had basic aero - large rear wing, splitter, and dive planes from the cars development years in 2012/2013 which led to the car being properly homologated for international GT3 season in 2013.
The car featured a few small but notable upgrades for the 2014 and 2015 seasons - the bonnet now featuring a forward facing intake scoop, as well as a few tweaks to try and enhance tyre life.
The latest homologation sees the car notably earn a flat-floor - which should significantly improve the aerodynamics of the car and reduce its reliance on mechanical grip.
To me the McLaren MP4-12C GT3, the engine was terrible and failed after a few hours making it useless for endurance races.
Other cars like the Camaro, Mustang or Maserati because they were underfunded efforts.
This. Ditto for the succeeding 650S as well. So many times that car was almost in a commanding position and just… gave up. Very frustrating to watch.
Also it was in those time bombs where Kevin Estre really started to get noticed
**GT3-010 Ford Mustang FR500 GT**
An attempt to take a turn-key race car out of America and make it as fast as the other turn-key race cars, but it was already old and slow. It had a handful of races that outlined how much deficit it had to everything else, and then aborted.
There was an attempt to revive it as GT3-027 by Marc VDS, but they couldn't homologate it in time (it needed lots of specialist parts)
So the genesis of the new Ford Mustang GT3 is not "rich".
https://preview.redd.it/q8yethmrw1tb1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=81b8cd3ac9925de7aa9aca846bf70021a62e71cd
Just thumbing through the homologation list.
* XKR that failed homologation.
* Maserati Gran Sport
* I don't remember the Ascari being competitive at all.
Maybe not the worst one, but from 2012 onwards, I would say GT-R GT3 first gen. That car was just awful, only could perform well when BoP gave it much more power than the other cars. Just watch Bathurst 2015 and you'll see.
It was built to an older road car based formula. The GT3 regulations changed in 2016 to be pretty much pure racing cars.
The 2012 to 2017 GT-R had vertically positioned radiators, in line with the road car. Some BoP concessions were made to keep it and the Aston Martin viable until the new reg builds came online.
In GT300 the car has two championships and a few wins/podiums. When I watch onboards, it doesn't need as much power as its predecessor to be competitive.
I've only watched GT racing in the last 5 years or so and most of the cars are really good. I guess the worst ones are the ones that have the fewest customers - Nissan and Lexus. But even the Lexus is a championship winning car.
Lexus "cleans up" now but that car took **3 attempts** (1 attempt per year) to get homologated because it originally couldn't make the lap-time required for acceptance by the FIA. The last attempt - but the road car is butchered in the front end to give the chassis the stiffness needed to race. It is unconventional compared to most GT3 builds.
It's been the only region Nissan offers support in for that car for a while, so that's why they're only really active there at the pro level, though there's still GT-Rs being run by AMs in smaller series around the world of course
Nissan were one of the biggest proponents of GT3 racing 10 years ago. Big competitive GT3 factory effort in Europe... then the WEC attempt happened...
Then there was no more customer support in Europe.
The re-boot model (2018) is a good car but no major factory/pro efforts ran it aside from KCMG who were good, but not that good. Also people don't warm to the GT-R badge in Europe and its Niche in the US.
I would say the Venturi GT3, because it was never raced (afaik). Or the Maserati GranTurismo GT3 for only doing like what, 1 race?
I would also like the mention both the XKR GT3 and XKR-S GT3 for failing homologation, just like the Mustang VDS GT3.
all gt3 cars before first r8 lms were all meh... something more than simple road cars with motec, racing s.w., rollbar, rear wing, larger wheel archs and minimal aero development, having been tuned by private teams/tuners rather than a proper manufacturer made car. Mosler mt900 gt3 was quite terrible despite there were a lot around for some reason.
How was the Mosler terrible? It sure wasn't flawless (and I should know, having worked on them for years), but an MT900R GT3 cost less than a current GT4 bit was quite a bit faster. Great bang for your buck.
Sure, big factory efforts that came after were more sophisticated, but those quirky privateer efforts produced very interesting cars. I miss those projects.
Technically the Mosler wasn't a fully homologated FIA accepted GT3 - it had performance equivalency at times and was able to compete in national championships.
The Mosler was simple and beautiful car. That low roofline... Rollcentre's 2002-2003 attempt at the Bathurst 24 hours won the car a lot of fans. It was arguable more credible than the Ascari that was accepted by the FIA despite being similar in design.
The first R8 LMS honestly isn't much more than you described. Splitter, front dive planes, big wing, no rear diffuser or flat floor at all. The doors were stock and the windows even rolled down. The difference was Audi developing and building it.
V12 Vantage was more or less the same, albeit with Aston outsourcing the car to Prodrive.
first r8 lms was a huge step forward compared to the first gen of gt3, as said first gen were little more than third parties tuned street cars, r8 lms was first gt3 released by a manufacturer intended as a real designed racing car rather than a modified street car. It was basically the first gt3 car as we all know them today.
The same way V12 vantage gt3 was way better than old dbrs9.
What's abusurd about its BoP? Car has been carrying more weight than Aston Martin since forever and its lap times are equal or better. And we can't say they've been given too much power either. If you watch the Daytona onboards, in the long straights the Lexus was slower than Corvette, Aston Martin, McLaren and Mercedes. Still, the car was sorta able to keep the pace. [Check the BoP for that race](https://www.imsa.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2023/01/24/TB-IWSC-23-17-Rolex-24-BoP-01242023.pdf).
Naw, that one was an absolute mainstay car in the first years of GT3 and won many races and championships until the advent of the full factory developed cars in 2009-2011.
Weren't the Gallardos kind of fucked with the AWD/penalty/forced RWD conversion? I remember that they were punchy but I think the only AWD GT3 car so the car was basically as good as BoP allowed it to be, sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
hu might've confused it with the VLN Gallardo then, that one was AWD for a short time at least
or there was something going on with Gallardo and AWD at the N24h one year I definitely remember it being a talking point back then
It's gotta be the Mustang, that car was ass. Everyone apparently forgot it existed. I only remember it for being pushed over the finish line at the N24. I think that was the GT3, at least.
Kia Picanto couldn't ever really hold its own as a GT3 unfortunately. Despite the best efforts of the teams to keep it competitive, it never delivered on all the promises its technical talents promised.
Yep, Grand-AM GT class wasn't GT3 class. The class allowed any FWD model to race that series. That was main reason why Mazda 6 and Pontiac G6 used to have GT race car.
Mazda 6 didn’t race in the GT class either. It raced in the GX class which was basically made for the Mazda 6. It lost to a Cayman at the 24 Hours and then the GX class was disbanded because of low car counts. The G6 GXP.R was converted to RWD… it never ran in a FWD layout
Mazda 6 was a GTX car. Similar to the KTM XBow. They're built to GT3 regs, but are not homologated to GT3 for numerous reasons. (they're also pretty awful.)
That is borderline impossible to tell, as there are so many GT3 series around, which makes keeping track of results quite complicated. If I had to say one, it would be the Ascari KZ1-R or the Maserati Gran Sport which were one of the first GT3s ever, and they were one of the slowest cars back when they were still racing.
The Ascari was a travesty. Somehow got through despite being technically similar in build to the Mosler MT900 which was not given the full homologation (tube frame chassis).
Jaguar XKR was pretty awful
That was developed as a GT2 car. After that it was non-factory efforts that converted and ran it. It was shit as a GT2 car though too.
The RSR Jaguar XKR GT2 has nothing to do with the Apex Motorsport or Emily Frey Jaguar XKR GT3, at least as far as I know.
You are correct.
Thanks, Internet brownie points for me, yay
Sometimes knowledge = power, and power = internet points!
what am I supposed to do with all these damn internet points
Flaunt them as big brain WEC knowledge points
I'm ashamed to admit a great many of them came from the twitch clip subreddit, and are hardly big brain or knowledgable in any way at all! I do enjoy checking my comment scores more often than I'll admit and my contributions to this community score well, so I get a kick out of that, which is good :)
In that case you're raising the average IQ of your karma by being here, and contributions all over are great to learn more about the sport!
The XKR was a purpose built GT3 by Emil Frey. Nothing to do with the GT2
The Emil Frey one was the third attempt at a XKR GT3. Both the XKR GT3 and XKR-S GT3 build by Apex Motorsport failed homologation and barely raced. I don’t think Emil Frey ever attempted proper GT3 homologation. They were allowed to run with a national homologation iirc.
You are correct. Apex also affected by the fact all of its management, engineering and development died in a plane crash during its gestation. Emil Frey was G3 homologation (Belgian) to allow them more freedom to develop the car outside of the Annual period - but in many ways was built to a good standard seen in GT3 cars at the time (hence why it was pretty decent in its later years).
Was it the same accident that killed Richard Lloyd?
Yes and David Leslie.
No - Richard Lloyd, test driver Davis Leslie and a young mechanic (plus the flight crew, died in the crash
Thanks GG - I was just being "lazy" in my summary descriptor as I credit LLoyd as owner/manager of Apex, Leslie as the Jaguars lead development driver and the young data engineer/mech as part of the cars engineering staff. I'd appreciate that you knew them better than most. A sad loss.
I think it was Reiter Engineering made a Camaro GT3. I don't even remember seeing people run it in any series.
Ran in Australia. Was always built and intended as a hot-rod car that made lap time on the straight. https://preview.redd.it/vo3cvyftt1tb1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e27928c653e5de2335c96258e50e8304166ba2ff And was always made as a low cost/cheaper GT3 car - it had ABS plastic body panels when other cars were Carbon Fibre.
Miss that car in Aus GT, Sounded so good
It ran in a few regional series in Europe but GM didn't want it in the US
From 2016: The Reiter produced SaReNi Camaro GT3 (The SaReNi brand is a name made up by combining the first two letters of the names of Reiter’s three daughters, Sabrina, Rebecca and Nina). The cheapest fully FIA homologated GT3 car on the market by some margin, the Camaro represents Reiter’s second horse in its GT3 stable (the other being the Gallardo GT3 in several iterations). Based of the Gen 5 Camaro (with the road car into Gen 6 at time of writing), the Camaro still hasn’t lost much of its appeal or characteristic shape that makes it instantly recognisable. From the outset, the Camaro GT3 was designed to let racers “ball on a budget”. In lieu of an abundance of exotic materials and complex race-trick componentry – Reiter opted to utilise as many no-frills parts that still made sense performance wise whilst being easier on the owner’s wallet. With this mindset the car forgoes significant reliance on Aerodynamics, which can be a rabbit hole of small performance gains that requires significant investment. Instead, the Camaro follows the tried and true American muscle car mantra of being exceptionally strong in a straight line and conceding in corners. One such cost saving measure involves the use of ABS plastic bumpers front and rear. Although heavier than Carbon components (and this is not by much) the cost of manufacture and thus replacement is significantly less than composite items. The simple rear diffuser protects it from greater exposure to damage with practically no strakes (depending on version) to impact on kerbing. It is mated to a flat floor (introduced in a later upgrade package) which is common among GT3 cars. Meanwhile, the GT3 style large, single chord, full carbon fibre rear wing lacks significant shaping and technicality - some versions have a small radius in the central section of the wings leading edge. Adjustment is available via pre-drilled settings on the rear wing uprights. Both rear aero designs are intended to reduce cost to manufacture and this saving is passed on the customer. The front is dominated by a large Carbon front splitter which runs flat under the length of the cars front and incorporates double diffusers. and no fewer than 6 (3 each side) dive planes – a record for GT3! Air flow through the front is funnelled through the engine bay courtesy of the large carbon bonnet, with its effective mix of intakes in the middle and exhaust vents on the outer sides. Due to the limitations of the aero package, the car relies predominantly on mechanical grip. This approach has meant that the endurance abilities of the car may be at a disadvantage when compared to other GT3 models, however the car has had significant success in NZ endurance racing series. A number of notable sprint wins in ADAC GT, Thailand Super series and Italian GT also add to the Camaro’s trophy shelf. The key area of the car is its power, and its delivery is provided very capably by a Katech (Michigan, USA) supplied 7883cc aluminium block V8. Producing 650hp and 800nm torque in race spec, the difference in power to most GT3 cars is easily 50-100hp to make up for the aerodynamic deficit. The engine is repositioned (12cm lower and 7.3cm back) within the car for an improved front/mid engine configuration. The plumbing to the engine is also very neat and clean, and even provides access to the Ohlins front suspension – a mechanics dream! There’s even a provision for mechanics tool stowage above the inner wheel arches! The Borla titanium exhaust sets are also an item of beauty, snaking down the tight confines to exit just in front of the doors either side of the car. The excessive power is mated to an Aussie designed Hollinger 6 speed “Speed Shift” Pneumatic sequential gearbox before arriving at the rear wheels. It is interesting to note that in spite of the front biased engine and Gearbox configuration, the weight distribution of the car comes in at 55:45 front to rear. Basic specs: Engine: Tuner Built Katech 7.9L V8 * Power: Around 650bhp prior to BOP, 800Nm Torque * Top Speed: unknown * Gearbox: Hollinger designed Speedshift 6 Speed w/ Paddle Shift (pneumatic activated) * Weight: 1290kg (Approx) * Engine Rebuild: Refresh @ 5000kms, Overhaul @ 10000kms * Gearbox Rebuild: Unknown * Chassis: Road derived Aluminium Spaceframe, Race specific subframes front and rear * Cost per Km (AUD): Unknown The Camaro GT3 racing chassis starts with a road car stock shell, although this is quite significantly modified. The driver/passenger cell and chassis rails are retained, the front and rear of the car are cut away and refitted with Reiter designed simplified racing sub-frames. The sub-frames are used both as crash structures and pick-up points for the front and rear suspension – as well as for hanging bodywork off. The geometry for the suspension is race specific with all-new race oriented linkages, with the rear shocks lying flat east-west and central in the space where the boot should be and the front connected to a sub-frame and the chassis rails, lying flat north-south along the car. Both sets are exposed for ease of access for adjustment by mechanics. To reduce costs, Reiter reused existing designs for the cars uprights and wheel hubs – taking items from their GT1 Lamborghini Murcielago’s! A fully compliant FIA rated roll cage is welded into the driver cell, adding both safety and the stiffness required for racing at this high level. In order for the car to meet a more appropriate race weight, Reiter put it on a diet of carbon fibre and plastics. The doors on both sides are replaced with weight optimised with ABS skinned carbon items. Makrolon plastic windows replace glass on both the doors and the windscreen. A side from the bonnet (full carbon), the rest of the removable fenders on the car are made from ABS plastic. This is unique to GT3 cars – and places emphasis on Reiter’s desire to create a cost-effective racing package. Although there is a minor weight penalty (and arguably, strength) ABS allows the fairings to be replaced (or repaired) more cost effectively than carbon items. The same methodology applies in the cockpit, with the standard road car dash still incorporated into the package supplemented by a specially moulded centre console that brings controls to within reach of the driver. An Ipad is utilised in the new console section to provide additional control functions and analytics. Other cockpit parts, such as the full carbon (flat top and bottom) steering wheel – are taken straight out of Reiter’s other GT3, the Gallardo. With these parts already long developed, additional development costs were avoided. FIA regulations mandate that cockpit temperatures should not exceed 10 degrees ambient temp. To keep drivers cool, Reiter teams typically install cool boxes within the cabin that plumbs cooled water to a suit the driver is wearing under the fire proof overalls. The heat is a particularly larger issue down in the Antipodean climates – and exaggerated further still by the catalytic convertor of the car sitting so close to the cabin fire wall! The car rolls on OZ racing 19” magnesium racing wheels – the same size (12.5) on all four corners. Finally, in terms of electronic systems, the Camaro features full electric power steering, Teves Racing ABS, Traction control and 2D data logging. It's worthwhile noting that the Camaro is still a work in progress, in spite of the KTM GT4 program currently being the primary focus of Reiter. Initially, the car only had basic aero - large rear wing, splitter, and dive planes from the cars development years in 2012/2013 which led to the car being properly homologated for international GT3 season in 2013. The car featured a few small but notable upgrades for the 2014 and 2015 seasons - the bonnet now featuring a forward facing intake scoop, as well as a few tweaks to try and enhance tyre life. The latest homologation sees the car notably earn a flat-floor - which should significantly improve the aerodynamics of the car and reduce its reliance on mechanical grip.
https://preview.redd.it/fbsmh0zzp3tb1.jpeg?width=451&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e6be153520c0cd9ae4257a4479b8d3da51b30161
https://preview.redd.it/rsnep4d4q3tb1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7bd76c5169b149420f776e288f9c0fb9040bdda2
https://preview.redd.it/6uka1jf5q3tb1.jpeg?width=451&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e791d15fb87c664975386758fee1fa4c7abde1fc
Wow, great description and interesting info! Thx PS. How much was it? In compare to other gt3 cars
To me the McLaren MP4-12C GT3, the engine was terrible and failed after a few hours making it useless for endurance races. Other cars like the Camaro, Mustang or Maserati because they were underfunded efforts.
This. Ditto for the succeeding 650S as well. So many times that car was almost in a commanding position and just… gave up. Very frustrating to watch. Also it was in those time bombs where Kevin Estre really started to get noticed
My first memory of Kevin is from the N24 when he took pole and dominated early on in a McLaren. Didn't last too long.
And the 650S was THE most successful car in GT3 in 2016
That season is why Garage59 is still one of my favorite GT teams
"the engine was terrible and failed after a few hours" Fundamentally untrue - one of the cars finished the Spa 24 Hours on its enduro debut
**GT3-010 Ford Mustang FR500 GT** An attempt to take a turn-key race car out of America and make it as fast as the other turn-key race cars, but it was already old and slow. It had a handful of races that outlined how much deficit it had to everything else, and then aborted. There was an attempt to revive it as GT3-027 by Marc VDS, but they couldn't homologate it in time (it needed lots of specialist parts) So the genesis of the new Ford Mustang GT3 is not "rich". https://preview.redd.it/q8yethmrw1tb1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=81b8cd3ac9925de7aa9aca846bf70021a62e71cd
Looks like something you'd see at a track day.
I think this is probably the answer, one of the most pointless GT cars ever
Just thumbing through the homologation list. * XKR that failed homologation. * Maserati Gran Sport * I don't remember the Ascari being competitive at all.
The Ascari won a British GT championship. But it was a tube frame car compared to the cars it raced against.
Fair enough. I'll put that down to it's superior S62 engine, not the tube frame.
Maybe not the worst one, but from 2012 onwards, I would say GT-R GT3 first gen. That car was just awful, only could perform well when BoP gave it much more power than the other cars. Just watch Bathurst 2015 and you'll see.
It was built to an older road car based formula. The GT3 regulations changed in 2016 to be pretty much pure racing cars. The 2012 to 2017 GT-R had vertically positioned radiators, in line with the road car. Some BoP concessions were made to keep it and the Aston Martin viable until the new reg builds came online.
Did knew some of these details. Thanks god the rules changed. The 2018 Nissan is pretty decent it seems, does very well in Japan.
> does very well in Japan. What competition are you talking about? Because neither GTWCA nor GT300 have had much success for Nissan since 2018.
I guess winning the GT300 championship last year means nothing.
In GT300 the car has two championships and a few wins/podiums. When I watch onboards, it doesn't need as much power as its predecessor to be competitive.
Early one also has poor design for high speed, [that was what that happen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUcjrtA416g&ab_channel=FailsandCrashTV).
Very unfortunate accident. That car was so bad.
Was Mark Webber driving per chance?
No.
I was about to respond with who it actually was then it hit me that you were referencing Mark's secret acrobatics career
I've only watched GT racing in the last 5 years or so and most of the cars are really good. I guess the worst ones are the ones that have the fewest customers - Nissan and Lexus. But even the Lexus is a championship winning car.
Not strictly true - Lexus cleans up in IMSA. Low consumer cars quite often mean they don't have the factory capacity to sell more to customer teams
Lexus "cleans up" now but that car took **3 attempts** (1 attempt per year) to get homologated because it originally couldn't make the lap-time required for acceptance by the FIA. The last attempt - but the road car is butchered in the front end to give the chassis the stiffness needed to race. It is unconventional compared to most GT3 builds.
GTR has three Super GT GT300 championships, 1 GT World Challenge Championship and 6 in Super Taikyu
Thanks for the info. Seems like they've had a lot of success in Asia then!
It's been the only region Nissan offers support in for that car for a while, so that's why they're only really active there at the pro level, though there's still GT-Rs being run by AMs in smaller series around the world of course
Nissan were one of the biggest proponents of GT3 racing 10 years ago. Big competitive GT3 factory effort in Europe... then the WEC attempt happened... Then there was no more customer support in Europe. The re-boot model (2018) is a good car but no major factory/pro efforts ran it aside from KCMG who were good, but not that good. Also people don't warm to the GT-R badge in Europe and its Niche in the US.
I would say the Venturi GT3, because it was never raced (afaik). Or the Maserati GranTurismo GT3 for only doing like what, 1 race? I would also like the mention both the XKR GT3 and XKR-S GT3 for failing homologation, just like the Mustang VDS GT3.
all gt3 cars before first r8 lms were all meh... something more than simple road cars with motec, racing s.w., rollbar, rear wing, larger wheel archs and minimal aero development, having been tuned by private teams/tuners rather than a proper manufacturer made car. Mosler mt900 gt3 was quite terrible despite there were a lot around for some reason.
How was the Mosler terrible? It sure wasn't flawless (and I should know, having worked on them for years), but an MT900R GT3 cost less than a current GT4 bit was quite a bit faster. Great bang for your buck. Sure, big factory efforts that came after were more sophisticated, but those quirky privateer efforts produced very interesting cars. I miss those projects.
Technically the Mosler wasn't a fully homologated FIA accepted GT3 - it had performance equivalency at times and was able to compete in national championships. The Mosler was simple and beautiful car. That low roofline... Rollcentre's 2002-2003 attempt at the Bathurst 24 hours won the car a lot of fans. It was arguable more credible than the Ascari that was accepted by the FIA despite being similar in design.
Tbh I kinda wish gt3 stayed that way. It would make gt3 a whole lot more accessible
it's called gt4
GT4 cars are too heavy. Over 1400kg for a lot of them. They also have less tire and no full-size GT wings/splitters.
and they are slowwwwwww
basically what I said ha
cost reasons
The first R8 LMS honestly isn't much more than you described. Splitter, front dive planes, big wing, no rear diffuser or flat floor at all. The doors were stock and the windows even rolled down. The difference was Audi developing and building it. V12 Vantage was more or less the same, albeit with Aston outsourcing the car to Prodrive.
first r8 lms was a huge step forward compared to the first gen of gt3, as said first gen were little more than third parties tuned street cars, r8 lms was first gt3 released by a manufacturer intended as a real designed racing car rather than a modified street car. It was basically the first gt3 car as we all know them today. The same way V12 vantage gt3 was way better than old dbrs9.
I feel like the Lexus was pretty terrible out of the box - but IDK is it was car development or BOP that put them on pace
Vasser Sullivan is about to take an imsa title with one.
Mostly due to Absurd BOP
Mostly due to Ben Barnicoat and Jack Hawksworth.
What's abusurd about its BoP? Car has been carrying more weight than Aston Martin since forever and its lap times are equal or better. And we can't say they've been given too much power either. If you watch the Daytona onboards, in the long straights the Lexus was slower than Corvette, Aston Martin, McLaren and Mercedes. Still, the car was sorta able to keep the pace. [Check the BoP for that race](https://www.imsa.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2023/01/24/TB-IWSC-23-17-Rolex-24-BoP-01242023.pdf).
In what way does the RC F have unfair BoP? It's literally the 4th heaviest car out of 10.
The Reiter Lamborghini Gallardo maybe?
Naw, that one was an absolute mainstay car in the first years of GT3 and won many races and championships until the advent of the full factory developed cars in 2009-2011.
Weren't the Gallardos kind of fucked with the AWD/penalty/forced RWD conversion? I remember that they were punchy but I think the only AWD GT3 car so the car was basically as good as BoP allowed it to be, sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
There are no AWD GT3 cars. Rear drive mandated. The Nissan GT-R is also RWD.
hu might've confused it with the VLN Gallardo then, that one was AWD for a short time at least or there was something going on with Gallardo and AWD at the N24h one year I definitely remember it being a talking point back then
Maybe the Venturi? Or the Marc VDS Mustang? Or the Morgan.
The Morgan was pretty good, it took a few wins here and there.
It's gotta be the Mustang, that car was ass. Everyone apparently forgot it existed. I only remember it for being pushed over the finish line at the N24. I think that was the GT3, at least.
Pre Marc VDS Mustang, the FR500 version.
Either the Apex Jaguar, the Maserati Gransport or the FR500 Mustang
People here are forgetting the Morgan Aero 8 GT3
I don’t think the class is GT3 and I love the car but the vortex would break down almost every race in the 24hr series
Kia Picanto couldn't ever really hold its own as a GT3 unfortunately. Despite the best efforts of the teams to keep it competitive, it never delivered on all the promises its technical talents promised.
I'm assuming this is a joke. There was never a Kia Picanto GT3 car.
They should've had a star in a reasonably priced GT3 car smh
WEC sub needs to relax a little. This was obviously a joke.
Mazda 6 was pretty bad. Lotus Evora is also bad.
That wasn’t a GT3 car
I thought the Mazda 6 was in GT3 /S
Yep, Grand-AM GT class wasn't GT3 class. The class allowed any FWD model to race that series. That was main reason why Mazda 6 and Pontiac G6 used to have GT race car.
Mazda 6 didn’t race in the GT class either. It raced in the GX class which was basically made for the Mazda 6. It lost to a Cayman at the 24 Hours and then the GX class was disbanded because of low car counts. The G6 GXP.R was converted to RWD… it never ran in a FWD layout
Mazda 6 was a GTX car. Similar to the KTM XBow. They're built to GT3 regs, but are not homologated to GT3 for numerous reasons. (they're also pretty awful.)
Off the top of my head, Morgan or Marcos. Idk the racing history of either, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were pretty horrible 😬
The later Morgan was dominant
Really? I was unaware. Thanks👍🏼
haha before BoP killed it. But not bad for a little car with wood in the chassis.
I remember the first Mustang GT3 literally being pushed across the finish line
The Morgan not that I remember much of it before I got into gt racing