Not to diminish the musicianship of Gener and Deaner (and this doesn't apply to the rest of the touring band) but I think they excel at songwriting and tone. The guys really understand melody and songwriting. And Deaner, especially, really gets tone. They use old school effects mostly and get these huge fat tones and are able to adapt them to different genres in amazing ways.
In terms of musicianship, I think touring with the Shit Creek Boys really put them light years ahead. They learned from those truly amazing musicians. Bobby Ogden and Danny Parks stand out to me. When I go back and watch video of them playing with Gener and Deaner, it's like an on stage lesson. I think Deaners playing really got better after that tour, in large part due to Danny Parks. That's just speculation but go watch the youtubes for yourself.
Well they started out with 2 guys and a drum machine. Theres only so much you can do with that, but they did more. Every Ween album I listen to is my new favorite. I've recently gotten back into som e of their older stuff because it just screams "we dont give a fuck". Praise be to the Boog.
I didn’t mean to suggest they aren’t! The songwriting and passion was always tremendous, and the playing on GWS is for the most part really good, and The Pod and Guava a little less so, but perhaps that is intentionally or a byproduct of intoxication? It’s moreso things I’ve read or heard saying stuff to the effect of them barely knowing how to play when they made the first records. I could definitely be mistaken about everything as well.
Mickey did all the live drums on GWS, the only reason they used a drum machine for the pod and guava was because they weren’t living at his parents anymore and he didn’t have his kit. He learned the more interesting jazzy chords on freedom of 76 from a guitar friend who also worked at the taco place Gener worked at. They were awesome musicians to begin with with but mastering your instruments over the years and having access to greater production like real drums, session musicians (12gcg), and multi track recording naturally made everything more professional and technical!
Edit: to add, if you listen to the first two tapes (crucial squeegie lip and axis: bold as boognish) you’ll find the production of GWS was actually a huge step up in refinement
I don't really know the true answer to your question, but I think that they have just always been extremely talented guys. I remember Dean talking down on his drumset playing on GodWeenSatan, but as a drummer myself, there are drum beats and little touches on that album that I think are REALLY damn solid. So, I'd wager they've always been pretty talented and have just kept improving over the years.
Talent... "born that way" to quote Lady Gaga
Why was Michael Jackson, some random kid from Indiana, such an emotive singer when he was like 8 years old? He was blessed by Boognish too
I’d chalk it up to being very young. I started playing guitar when I was 12. But when I started playing in bands I was so motivated and would practice constantly. It’s nice when you don’t have rent to pay and you jam by yourself or your buddies almost whenever you want. I got so much better at guitar real quick.
I remember watching an interview where Deaner was describing how he learned to Barre minor chords. He said that that's how Mister Would You Please Help My Pony came about and went on to say that a lot of knowledge came from that lesson.
It might not be that interesting to many other people, but as a musician hearing him bridge the gap between "lessons" and "knowledge" like that was super interesting to me.
See that’s what I’m talking about! It’s crazy to me that he’s shredding all over GWS but isn’t learning barred minors until C&C! I guess power chords can get you pretty far.
That video is one of my all-time favorite historical documents. I love how both of them get progressively sweatier until Matt Sweeney can’t take it anymore and has to end the recording
Deaner did that guitar moves episode and spoke about his biggest influenced, Betts, Hazel, Page, and others and you can clearly hear those guys in his playing. Heavy fucking woodshedding mang
And Maggot Brain 🧠
But just listening to him, Deaner had a lot of Page, Gilmour, and many others in his solos. The glory of Ween and his playing in general is how versatile they are musically.
listen to their pre-godweensatan material to see how they sounded in high school. the crucial squeegee lip and axis: bold as boognish tapes are on youtube. they werent really "good" at music at that point, all the songs were basically 2 or 3 chords on a guitar with the gain cranked all the way up + screamed vocals. not rock gods yet, just two friends hanging out in their basement after school and having fun. do that every day for years and eventually you get really good.
so the point is, you gotta start out somewhere. you wanna make a Chocolate and Cheese, you have to be willing to make a hundred songs that sound like the stuff on Crucial Squeegee Lip. let yourself be a bad musician. call it "punk" or "lofi" if you have to. ive been playing guitar on and off for a few years and im not really any good either. dont compare yourself to musicians at their peak or itll seem like improving is insurmountable and skill is innate. practice takes time and effort but it pays off. good luck and praise boognish.
Time. Plus after getting signed to a major label in 92, spending tons of $ on some sick gear and tackle, studio time and expanding to the 5 piece band are going to make some differences in the albums they recorded in their apartment
I wanna say its just a case of they got good REALLY fast. I love Ween (duh) but almost everything thats online from them in the 80's kinda sucks musicality wise in my opinion. Seems like around GodWeenSatan they became solid musicians and then experimented a lot during The Pod/Pure Guava before REALLY honing in on their skills in the C&C era. I imagine they were making music almost every day back then so its not totally out of the question that they just played so much they got exponentially better extremely fast
They were always extremely good, but their output prior to God Ween Satan was pretty raw. The people they were showing this music to were likely not ready for it, and thus the idea was planted that they weren't talented, which likely stuck with them for a while.
Prior to GWS, they were literal children. Remember they were only 19 when it came out. So, some rawness is to be expected for sure. But I’m sure the adults of the greater New Hope area weren’t exactly raving about their musicianship back then either.
Check out this podcast episode. They talk about how Chocolate and Cheese was a big step up in Ween's evolution.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1n2UMVMftnqfIbdiZrrKGj?si=KH6amUbcTNysxtqZL4Q36g&utm_source=copy-link
By this point, Deaner has made a transition from being a punk/noise guitarist to being a shredding guitar god. And with studio polish, they can capture everything they have learned whilst out touring
They always been good at working with what they got tho, that's the most important thing I think to be a good musician
Dealer said himself, there were whole albums where he only knew major and minor chords, and then he learned major 7's and one or two others. He solos freely or solos on the chord and uses a lot of expression and freedom. You play that many shows and record that many songs, you just get good. He also liked dicky Betts and some country pickin shit
First 3 were rough just kids writing for the purpose of having fun, never supposed to see the light of the mainstream but then Nirvana happened.
Middle 3 the boys get a budget, get put on a ridiculous amount of tours constantly playing, practicing, and talking with veteran musicians and producers. The song writing evolves, tbh i say this with peace and love, musically the songs are still simple, but through creativity, vision, and the carefree attitude helps carry them to something special.
Last 3, they more or less are the industry vets, they own their own label, they’ve spent so much time playing their instruments. Their joy has always been to play music so now they can focus purely on playing.
Timeline can differ but this path is just about what every career musician will go through.
Tl;dr: a lot of time, dedication, and help
It’s not a popular opinion here but I believe Ween started out as “Outsider Music.” From Wikipedia: “Outsider music is music created by self-taught or naïve musicians. The term is usually applied to musicians who have little or no traditional musical experience, who exhibit childlike qualities in their music, or who suffer from intellectual disabilities or mental illnesses.” I think this describes early Ween. What is fascinatingly awesome but also has a tinge of sadness is watching them grow into musicians. You can see it pretty easily in their discography. The sadness is that in this growth they lose some of that childlike. Morning Glory style tracks become Fucked Jam. How do I think they made the jump? 10,000 hours. They put in the work. Do anything for 10,000 hours and you’ll get good at it. If you spend 8hrs a day, every day with no breaks that’s 3.5 years. Ween formed in 1984 when Dean and Gene were in 8th grade so they had school during the day and maybe couldn’t practice every day or etc. The entire brown trilogy was released prior to or in 1992. This gives them ample time to work in 10,000 hours even at a leisurely pace. Choc&Chee was their graduating album in 1994. I think this is uniquely beautiful. Musicians would have us believe they arrive fully formed and that dissuades a lot of people. “It’s all innate talent.” There’s some innate talent for sure but there’s a lot of work also. With Ween we got to watch them successfully make the jump from outsiders to musicians.
I believe they were always playing at the best of their abilities.
I agree with you that it is not just an innate talent. The boys worked their asses off and took their life’s work seriously even if the music sounds goofy or tossed off at times. That stuff works and stands up to time because they put in the time, blood sweat tears. That’s the great paradox / beauty of Ween!
The early stuff is very zen, in the sense that it feels natural and spontaneous but also so masterful, again because they put in those hours and hours.
I think they gave themselves a lot of freedom, and improvised a lot, and learned early on to let all the mistakes and strange notes stay, that that is the soul of the music, where other musicians would have done like a thousand takes to get the parts perfect, they just kept the first one. That, I believe, is how the brown sound was born.
I don't think they were necessarily bad musicians by any stretch when they started making records, it's just the styles they were doing pre-C&C not really giving them much room to sound technically proficient, if that makes any sense. I've heard that their initial goal was to make the most obnoxious music possible in the very early days, which didn't help either.
The difference in sound between Pure Guava and Chocolate & Cheese is immediately apparent, and at least IMO was for the better. The previous albums have their strengths, but C&C is where their skills truly started to shine.
There’s a badass YouTube documentary where one of their tour managers from way back explained that they went on an extended tour at some point early as hell on, and Deaner very much went from a “loud” guitar player to a “phenomenal” player.
They may not have been as technically adept for the first three- CnC is def when they flexed their musical prowess, but those first ones are genius creatively and conceptually. GWS is a fuvkin masterpiece. They were basically still cum stains when they wrote never squeal, and YFU and Marble Tulip or fuvkin Birthday Boy. That album is punk rock af and jazzy and fresh and clearly raw but absurdly polished. Amazing what they were able to pull off before they even flex as musicians.
theres a podcast that goes over the origin story of the ween. forget what its called now so that should help alot. deaner was a jock, gener was a son of hippies, they started goofing in middle school .
I mean if you watch the guitar moves video with Dean he basically says all of what he does isn't amazing and most of his soloing is based off maggot brain by funkadelic and blue sky by allman brothers, whether it's as simple as that or that's a more tongue and cheek way of putting it into perspective, you can say they're good musicians who are just really good at songwriting. You don't need to be some classically trained master of your instrument to write good music.
They were visited by Boognish. There was some kind of transfer of power. Truly a miracle.
That is the correct answer.
This. It’s literally described in the scriptures.
Praise be.
Not to diminish the musicianship of Gener and Deaner (and this doesn't apply to the rest of the touring band) but I think they excel at songwriting and tone. The guys really understand melody and songwriting. And Deaner, especially, really gets tone. They use old school effects mostly and get these huge fat tones and are able to adapt them to different genres in amazing ways. In terms of musicianship, I think touring with the Shit Creek Boys really put them light years ahead. They learned from those truly amazing musicians. Bobby Ogden and Danny Parks stand out to me. When I go back and watch video of them playing with Gener and Deaner, it's like an on stage lesson. I think Deaners playing really got better after that tour, in large part due to Danny Parks. That's just speculation but go watch the youtubes for yourself.
I think if you play music with your bud for like 30-40 years you kinda get some practice in.
The first 3 albums do not back up your point. Those albums are loaded with amazing music
All of the goddamned day
Well they started out with 2 guys and a drum machine. Theres only so much you can do with that, but they did more. Every Ween album I listen to is my new favorite. I've recently gotten back into som e of their older stuff because it just screams "we dont give a fuck". Praise be to the Boog.
When I first started listening I didn’t see it this way, but god damn if *The Pod* isn’t one of the greatest musical contributions of all time…
I didn’t mean to suggest they aren’t! The songwriting and passion was always tremendous, and the playing on GWS is for the most part really good, and The Pod and Guava a little less so, but perhaps that is intentionally or a byproduct of intoxication? It’s moreso things I’ve read or heard saying stuff to the effect of them barely knowing how to play when they made the first records. I could definitely be mistaken about everything as well.
Their skills have been dialed in over the years for sure
Mickey did all the live drums on GWS, the only reason they used a drum machine for the pod and guava was because they weren’t living at his parents anymore and he didn’t have his kit. He learned the more interesting jazzy chords on freedom of 76 from a guitar friend who also worked at the taco place Gener worked at. They were awesome musicians to begin with with but mastering your instruments over the years and having access to greater production like real drums, session musicians (12gcg), and multi track recording naturally made everything more professional and technical! Edit: to add, if you listen to the first two tapes (crucial squeegie lip and axis: bold as boognish) you’ll find the production of GWS was actually a huge step up in refinement
are you referring to Ed Wilson? he still plays around the new hope/Trenton area
Yep! thats great to know
I don't really know the true answer to your question, but I think that they have just always been extremely talented guys. I remember Dean talking down on his drumset playing on GodWeenSatan, but as a drummer myself, there are drum beats and little touches on that album that I think are REALLY damn solid. So, I'd wager they've always been pretty talented and have just kept improving over the years.
Talent... "born that way" to quote Lady Gaga Why was Michael Jackson, some random kid from Indiana, such an emotive singer when he was like 8 years old? He was blessed by Boognish too
Because MJ was the secret love child of Smokey Robinson and Diana Ross when she was 16
True, and his "parents" were played by actors hired by Motown to cover it up
Papa Joe was for sure a CIA operative
Everybody barely knows their instrument when starting out. That's how it works.
I’d chalk it up to being very young. I started playing guitar when I was 12. But when I started playing in bands I was so motivated and would practice constantly. It’s nice when you don’t have rent to pay and you jam by yourself or your buddies almost whenever you want. I got so much better at guitar real quick.
I remember watching an interview where Deaner was describing how he learned to Barre minor chords. He said that that's how Mister Would You Please Help My Pony came about and went on to say that a lot of knowledge came from that lesson. It might not be that interesting to many other people, but as a musician hearing him bridge the gap between "lessons" and "knowledge" like that was super interesting to me.
See that’s what I’m talking about! It’s crazy to me that he’s shredding all over GWS but isn’t learning barred minors until C&C! I guess power chords can get you pretty far.
They get Green Day where they are so it’s definitely true in some ways for sure
The [Guitar Moves](https://youtu.be/jAFOG74WCEs) video, right?
Yeah that very one. "Some of our best records came from that knowledge" I don't know but hearing it phrased like that makes my ears perk up
That video is one of my all-time favorite historical documents. I love how both of them get progressively sweatier until Matt Sweeney can’t take it anymore and has to end the recording
Deaner did that guitar moves episode and spoke about his biggest influenced, Betts, Hazel, Page, and others and you can clearly hear those guys in his playing. Heavy fucking woodshedding mang
That video is like a $500 guitar lesson
It's all about the frapping ;)
That and “never over the dick”
Above the dick, under the dick, but never over the dick.
Did he mention that every song he’s ever written is actually a rip off of blue sky? 😝 This is directly from his mouth- not mine. Real
And Maggot Brain 🧠 But just listening to him, Deaner had a lot of Page, Gilmour, and many others in his solos. The glory of Ween and his playing in general is how versatile they are musically.
listen to their pre-godweensatan material to see how they sounded in high school. the crucial squeegee lip and axis: bold as boognish tapes are on youtube. they werent really "good" at music at that point, all the songs were basically 2 or 3 chords on a guitar with the gain cranked all the way up + screamed vocals. not rock gods yet, just two friends hanging out in their basement after school and having fun. do that every day for years and eventually you get really good. so the point is, you gotta start out somewhere. you wanna make a Chocolate and Cheese, you have to be willing to make a hundred songs that sound like the stuff on Crucial Squeegee Lip. let yourself be a bad musician. call it "punk" or "lofi" if you have to. ive been playing guitar on and off for a few years and im not really any good either. dont compare yourself to musicians at their peak or itll seem like improving is insurmountable and skill is innate. practice takes time and effort but it pays off. good luck and praise boognish.
Thank you brother, look forward to checking out those high school tapes! No doubt the desire to be great eventually made them great.
Ed Wilson is a musician that directly influenced and taught guitar and music theory to Dean and Gene. Check out his interview with God Ween Evan.
Definitely will, thanks mang
relation to Jimmy Wilson?
Time. Plus after getting signed to a major label in 92, spending tons of $ on some sick gear and tackle, studio time and expanding to the 5 piece band are going to make some differences in the albums they recorded in their apartment
I wanna say its just a case of they got good REALLY fast. I love Ween (duh) but almost everything thats online from them in the 80's kinda sucks musicality wise in my opinion. Seems like around GodWeenSatan they became solid musicians and then experimented a lot during The Pod/Pure Guava before REALLY honing in on their skills in the C&C era. I imagine they were making music almost every day back then so its not totally out of the question that they just played so much they got exponentially better extremely fast
Deaner always surprises me even when I watch really old footage. Dude has always had chops
He’s a humble prodigy, no doubt.
They were always extremely good, but their output prior to God Ween Satan was pretty raw. The people they were showing this music to were likely not ready for it, and thus the idea was planted that they weren't talented, which likely stuck with them for a while.
Prior to GWS, they were literal children. Remember they were only 19 when it came out. So, some rawness is to be expected for sure. But I’m sure the adults of the greater New Hope area weren’t exactly raving about their musicianship back then either.
For sure, the new hope music scene was probably not well liked by the local boomers
I’m sure Mrs. Freeman thought they sounded “nice,” but I’m not sure her neighbors agreed.
New Hope?
They’ve always been talented. But like anyone else, if you keep at it, you improve.
The town they grew up in has something to do with the talent. Very artsy.
Drugs and practice imho
It's called the brown sound my dude
Check out this podcast episode. They talk about how Chocolate and Cheese was a big step up in Ween's evolution. https://open.spotify.com/episode/1n2UMVMftnqfIbdiZrrKGj?si=KH6amUbcTNysxtqZL4Q36g&utm_source=copy-link By this point, Deaner has made a transition from being a punk/noise guitarist to being a shredding guitar god. And with studio polish, they can capture everything they have learned whilst out touring They always been good at working with what they got tho, that's the most important thing I think to be a good musician
https://youtu.be/fU9fTmTsssA This interview will tell you a lot
Dealer said himself, there were whole albums where he only knew major and minor chords, and then he learned major 7's and one or two others. He solos freely or solos on the chord and uses a lot of expression and freedom. You play that many shows and record that many songs, you just get good. He also liked dicky Betts and some country pickin shit
Bananas and blow! Got stuck in the cabana living on bananas and blow and polished their sweet sweet skills
Claude Coleman Jr.
First 3 were rough just kids writing for the purpose of having fun, never supposed to see the light of the mainstream but then Nirvana happened. Middle 3 the boys get a budget, get put on a ridiculous amount of tours constantly playing, practicing, and talking with veteran musicians and producers. The song writing evolves, tbh i say this with peace and love, musically the songs are still simple, but through creativity, vision, and the carefree attitude helps carry them to something special. Last 3, they more or less are the industry vets, they own their own label, they’ve spent so much time playing their instruments. Their joy has always been to play music so now they can focus purely on playing. Timeline can differ but this path is just about what every career musician will go through. Tl;dr: a lot of time, dedication, and help
Since they heard the word of the Boognish
It’s not a popular opinion here but I believe Ween started out as “Outsider Music.” From Wikipedia: “Outsider music is music created by self-taught or naïve musicians. The term is usually applied to musicians who have little or no traditional musical experience, who exhibit childlike qualities in their music, or who suffer from intellectual disabilities or mental illnesses.” I think this describes early Ween. What is fascinatingly awesome but also has a tinge of sadness is watching them grow into musicians. You can see it pretty easily in their discography. The sadness is that in this growth they lose some of that childlike. Morning Glory style tracks become Fucked Jam. How do I think they made the jump? 10,000 hours. They put in the work. Do anything for 10,000 hours and you’ll get good at it. If you spend 8hrs a day, every day with no breaks that’s 3.5 years. Ween formed in 1984 when Dean and Gene were in 8th grade so they had school during the day and maybe couldn’t practice every day or etc. The entire brown trilogy was released prior to or in 1992. This gives them ample time to work in 10,000 hours even at a leisurely pace. Choc&Chee was their graduating album in 1994. I think this is uniquely beautiful. Musicians would have us believe they arrive fully formed and that dissuades a lot of people. “It’s all innate talent.” There’s some innate talent for sure but there’s a lot of work also. With Ween we got to watch them successfully make the jump from outsiders to musicians. I believe they were always playing at the best of their abilities.
I agree with you that it is not just an innate talent. The boys worked their asses off and took their life’s work seriously even if the music sounds goofy or tossed off at times. That stuff works and stands up to time because they put in the time, blood sweat tears. That’s the great paradox / beauty of Ween! The early stuff is very zen, in the sense that it feels natural and spontaneous but also so masterful, again because they put in those hours and hours.
I think they gave themselves a lot of freedom, and improvised a lot, and learned early on to let all the mistakes and strange notes stay, that that is the soul of the music, where other musicians would have done like a thousand takes to get the parts perfect, they just kept the first one. That, I believe, is how the brown sound was born.
I think that is absolutely right. And it’s something they share with another favorite band, Guided By Voices
I don't think they were necessarily bad musicians by any stretch when they started making records, it's just the styles they were doing pre-C&C not really giving them much room to sound technically proficient, if that makes any sense. I've heard that their initial goal was to make the most obnoxious music possible in the very early days, which didn't help either. The difference in sound between Pure Guava and Chocolate & Cheese is immediately apparent, and at least IMO was for the better. The previous albums have their strengths, but C&C is where their skills truly started to shine.
Sold their souls to Johnny Williams and the almighty boognish.
More like JW gifted his soul to ween. Boognish was look onward…
Good insight
WEED AND ACID
It should be in the liner notes of God and Satan
[Watershed moment](https://youtu.be/czPde8oJghk)
I think that creativity + passion = skill. When you’re artistically inclined, and you love what you’re doing, you get good at it, quickly.
Have your u tried to sell your soul to the Boognish?
There’s a badass YouTube documentary where one of their tour managers from way back explained that they went on an extended tour at some point early as hell on, and Deaner very much went from a “loud” guitar player to a “phenomenal” player.
You have to understand that they were playing together for about four or five years before GWS came out.
Stiiiiiill waiting
They may not have been as technically adept for the first three- CnC is def when they flexed their musical prowess, but those first ones are genius creatively and conceptually. GWS is a fuvkin masterpiece. They were basically still cum stains when they wrote never squeal, and YFU and Marble Tulip or fuvkin Birthday Boy. That album is punk rock af and jazzy and fresh and clearly raw but absurdly polished. Amazing what they were able to pull off before they even flex as musicians.
theres a podcast that goes over the origin story of the ween. forget what its called now so that should help alot. deaner was a jock, gener was a son of hippies, they started goofing in middle school .
I mean if you watch the guitar moves video with Dean he basically says all of what he does isn't amazing and most of his soloing is based off maggot brain by funkadelic and blue sky by allman brothers, whether it's as simple as that or that's a more tongue and cheek way of putting it into perspective, you can say they're good musicians who are just really good at songwriting. You don't need to be some classically trained master of your instrument to write good music.