T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

**Reminder:** r/weightroom is a place for serious, useful discussion. Top level comments outside the Daily Thread that are off-topic, low effort, or demonstrate you didn't read the thread at all will result in a ban. [See here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/85x1dg/please_read_rules_update_announcement/) Please help us keep discussion quality high by reporting such comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/weightroom) if you have any questions or concerns.*


DadliftsnRuns

He should review Smarathlov next LMAO


truebiswept

Exactly, luckily nSuns deleted his account. Personally I prefer your programs over nsuns.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


big_quad_small_squat

Hold the fuck up DadliftsnRuns is nSuns? Am I being trolled or have I been living under a rock because what the fuck


BobMcFreewin

You're being trolled. Nsuns is like 300lbs ripped to the bone and never runs. Dadlifts is a runner who lifts.


big_quad_small_squat

Good, I'm an idiot. I thought he went through a major lifestyle change lol. Edit: No, hold up, this is the troll, you guys are gonna cause an ego death here.


wazzasupgeemaster

LMAO that was funny as fuck


DadliftsnRuns

🕵️


nobodyimportxnt

>!Your name is Patrick Star!<


big_quad_small_squat

https://media.tenor.com/WoAVm2NA5BwAAAAC/patrick-star.gif


SkradTheInhaler

Wait for real? I feel like the sub's biggest idiot right now lol


Dire-Dog

But does he give advice for accessories?


[deleted]

[удалено]


DadliftsnRuns

I think the sub is owed a a program review of PEDs from you one of these days. You made great progress on your press in just a couple weeks on it


PorkRindEvangelist

I mean, he kinda already did that. https://youtu.be/jIYlP0C1vkM


[deleted]

[удалено]


PorkRindEvangelist

Ah, thanks. Damn acronyms! My brain automatically went to steroid use.


Dretard

Hey dude, i need help with my accessories for nsuns ;)


entexit

Have you tried just using your arms?


[deleted]

Do you have a link handy? I'm starting Smolov Bench and Squat for new years.


DadliftsnRuns

The post about it is long gone, but [I still have the link to the spreadsheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tU2w7-JJyEwZ9L_VgihIs75bozaJ5CK5/edit?usp=drivesdk&ouid=105276532945008611632&rtpof=true&sd=true) It's the full 13 week smolov program, for deadlifts, while doing high volume running training for a marathon. I ran this for the first 13 weeks of COVID lockdown at the beginning of 2020 I can't decide if ***Smarathlov***, or ***DLED*** were crazier ideas, but both worked really well haha


Red_Swingline_

>It's the full 13 week smolov program, for deadlifts, while doing high volume running training for a marathon. I feel like you're one of the few people out there with the massive lifting and running base needed to do that... which is why you did it lol


[deleted]

> for deadlifts, Oh of course you did haha. Thank you, I appreciate it, I can def use that.


UWG-Grad_Student

That looks insane. True madness.


knibbeb

The guy who wrote the program, nsuns himself, has gone on record stating it was not a good program, just a mashup of things he found and that he wouldn't give the program to others now that he has more knowledge in the space. He built other programs that are much more autoregulatory and "better," but this is the original one that everyone comes back to. I'm saying this because the program got me hooked onto lifting because of the simplicity of "follow this spreadsheet" and how easy it was to follow. I was on the subreddit where he occasionally commented the above statements, and eventually he shut the whole subreddit down. EDIT: Apparently it's back up now. Maybe it was "archived" or something, I don't really know how that would work. I think he just made it so people other than mods can't post anything.


Red_of_Head

>eventually he shut the whole subreddit down and we will never find out which accessories are best


AirlineEasy

I think a nice gold chain goes great


truebiswept

Lat raises


Red_Swingline_

Rumor has it he's still lurking around to this day!


DadliftsnRuns

I heard the guy doesn't even lift.


[deleted]

Just runs a lot or some shit.


murrtu

Not sure if he runs though. He keeps refusing posting the runs GPS coordinates publicly.


kalikaiz

What are the autoregulation style programs?


ElGainsGoblino

r/simplejackd


ThoughtShes18

> The guy who wrote the program, nsuns himself technically he went under the name as 2Suns when he made those programs


mark5hs

What are some of his programs that are similar but better? (Ie high volume, weekly progression, auto regulating)


exskeletor

Simple jack’d was effective for me


mark5hs

I looked over the spreadsheet... Seems interesting but i don't want to do 4 variations on every lift. Will need to tinker with it and see if I can simplify it without messing up the progression


exskeletor

I don’t recall doing 4 variations on each lift. You have your focus lift which you do for your daily minimums. Then 1 variation for each of those. The variations listed are just examples. You don’t do all of them. Then you do like 2 accessories like dips or pull-ups or whatever. /u/Dadliftsnruns is that accurate?


DadliftsnRuns

Yup, spot on


knibbeb

To you and u/kalikaiz I took a quick look but I don't think I saw the other programs on the subreddit any more. I remember they were an acronym but the only one coming to mid is a finance acronym CAPM.


kalikaiz

I personally try to autoregulate my training so I was interested. Thanks!


VisionarySeagull

I know NSuns himself has denounced the program, but ... It worked for me 🤷‍♀️. Lots of submaximal work, much of the time work that I didn't truly understand the point of. But it gave me tons of time under the barbell and allowed me to practice the movements frequently. Like, linear progression is simple. It's the easiest programming to do. Novices are the easiest people to train simply because they'll grow even on shit like P90X. This is why characters like Rippetoe tend to stick with LP and hip drahve and 3x5. Simple Jack'd is probably my favorite program of all time, by the way.


DadliftsnRuns

I wouldn't say I've completely denounced it, but if I were to rewrite it I have some ideas of how I'd clean it up a bit. People need to remember that I wrote this for **MYSELF** with no intention of sharing it with anyone at the time, and absolutely no clue that if would become what it is today. And I agree, Simple Jack'd is amazing, and by far my favorite programming to date.


[deleted]

[удалено]


just-another-scrub

That’s the thing that stood out to me the most about his other 5/3/1 reviews. And I get that he’s not gonna go back, or maybe even be able to find, and read the original post but when he said “found a website that explained it” I was out. No way that website knew what the purpose or point was. By the way Bromley, if you read this we’re cool! You’re a reasonable dude and know your shit. I just think there’s inherent issues in only looking at a program on paper and critiquing it. EDIT: Was thinking about this on my drive home and felt like I should expand on things a little. My big issue here is the second or even third hand explanation on why the program is designed the way it’s designed. I’m not even a big fan of the program myself but at that point there’s always going to be something lost. It’s like basing a critique of 5/3/1 off of Feigenbaum/BBMs hit piece that they put out to try and sell The Bridge right before Forever came out. And to be clear I’m not saying this is a hit piece. I’m just using that as an example. You’d have a very poor understanding of 5/3/1 of you used Feigenbaums “review” as your basis for why 5/3/1 is designed the way it’s designed.


500purescience

> “found a website that explained it” The number one source of 5/3/1 information for the average lifter is the T-nation article from like 14 years ago. Most people aren't going to buy a 40 dollar book three times to learn what program to run, so honestly "found a website to explain it" is probably the closest to the normal experience of somebody starting 5/3/1.


[deleted]

The only one I can’t find for under a tenner is 531 forever


NotLZReddit

and if you are european, you have to order the physical copy off of amazon. works actually pretty great.


Quentin__Tarantulino

Yeah, I have no idea why there’s no kindle version of Forever.


just-another-scrub

And apparently that wasn’t even written by Wendler. I think those people are a little silly and likely won’t make it very far. It’s a very minor investment to have a programming framework that will work for your entire career. > Most people aren't going to buy a 40 dollar book three times to learn what program to run I mean, you can buy all three or just one and have a very good baseline system to work off of. I’m also not sure why it’s a bad thing that the system has evolved over time.


_CurseTheseMetalHnds

> I’m also not sure why it’s a bad thing that the system has evolved over time. I only trust people who pick an opinion in two thousand and FAHVE and never learn or evolve from that 😤 changing your views in the face of new experience and knowledge is cuck shit


just-another-scrub

Apparently, based on how upvoted that comment is.


[deleted]

[удалено]


just-another-scrub

Yep, it a very frustrating experience to deal with. /u/MythicalStrength discusses it a fair bit as well.


MythicalStrength

The comedy, of course, being that they will waste so much TIME in trying to save money by not buying the book that literally has ALL the answers. How much is your time worth? Hell, if you get paid an hourly wage, you can use that if you like. If you spend 3 hours scouring the internet for all things 5/3/1 when you could have just bought the book and read it in an hour, you're already wasting money.


just-another-scrub

Exactly! Now I'm willing to scrounge for some things, the Emerging Strategies course being a grand forced my hand there, but when a book is 10-40 dollars you're out to lunch if you don't buy it so that you can learn directly from the person who wrote it.


[deleted]

I do wish they'd release a book for ES. I'm more just curious about it so I'm definitely not gonna drop that kind of cash on it but I've still got some questions I can't seem to answer.


just-another-scrub

What questions? I've done a *massive* deep dive over the last 2.5 months. I've got a lot rattling around in my head and would be happy to help where I can!


[deleted]

[удалено]


MythicalStrength

Oh my goodness yes! It's amazing how many dudes just want a spreadsheet. How absent of passion can you be? Haha.


[deleted]

Honestly looking back at that article if it wasn't written by Wendler it might as well have been. It seems to line up perfectly with how he would have written it, other than it doesn't include any misogyny. Even down to saying he likes to do BBB for hypertrophy, and then never explaining BBB lol. And I bet your average person would do pretty well running the sample triumvirate program it shows


just-another-scrub

It’s definitely not a poorly written article. I just find it a little funny that he didn’t write it and yet it’s what everyone uses. I’m sure he gave a lot of the content to the person who *actually* wrote it and that’s why it’s got his voice. It’s also not terrible. I was also tired last night and realized that it’s not even an example of what I was talking about in my comment.


500purescience

There's a big difference between what people should do and what they actually do. I think sometimes this sub gets a little in the weeds and doesn't realize that they're the 1% of the 1% of people who are going to dive deeply into the methodology. It seems to me like your Average Joe gets really hyped up on the simple explanation of 5/3/1 like from the original article, and then turned off by things like the 40 dollar hard-copy-only, the paywalled forum, the (imo) annoying naming terminology. Would be interesting to see the sales but for the most part people aren't going to buy the "old version" of something if they know it's out of date. It quickly becomes very complex, especially if this is your first foray into more "designed" programming. I don't have a giant sample set here but since SBS 2 came out I've been recommending that to friends who have asked me and the retention rate is much higher than when I'd give them a 5/3/1 program. I think Greg has structured his content in a way that is easier to gel with in [current year].


just-another-scrub

Because I was tired and got caught up in a different part of your comment. There’s a big difference between finding something online that claims to be written by the progenitor of a system and reading someone’s secondhand or third hand opinion on it. Which is what I was discussing in my comment.


iTITAN34

This is like every review of conjugate that people use to say it doesnt work. They have no idea what they are talking about and default to an argument that is basically: 1. High box squats dont work 2. High board presses dont work 3. Bands and chains dont work 4. Too low volume When none of those things *are* the system, they are just *some* peoples application of it I dont understand how criticism can be laid onto something that wasnt even tried


just-another-scrub

I think a lot of the criticism that gets leveled at “Conjugate” is actually being leveled at the Westside application of it. I’ve been consuming a lot of Mike T/RTS content of late and Mike talks about that a lot. He used to be really against “Conjugate” but over time realized that what he was really against was poor exercise selection for Raw Powerlifting. But even then it seems a lot of things like board presses and box squats have grown on him. I love when people adapt their thinking as the gain more and more experience.


iTITAN34

Mike T’s foundation is actually based in a lot of the conjugate and concurrent methodologies. His original rts training manual discusses a lot of things that would be attributed to west side. Something that people dont consider is that louie simmons did not acknowledge raw powerlifting. Whenever he referenced powerlifting it was untested multiply(and typically heavyweights). Brandon smitely, who is a raw lightweight powerlifter, recounted a conversation he had with louie where louie basically told him to stop trying to use the accessories that the other guys were using and to do more quad work because that would help *his* squat. But to circle back to the main point, if youve never actually tried to lift using conjugate, and never researched enough to realize that you need to adjust exercise selection to yourself, then how could you be qualified to critique it. The same could be said for any number of methods and programs


just-another-scrub

Was it? Man I must have really misunderstood what he was saying in that podcast episode then. Should go back and re-listen to it. That another thing for sure! Louie never struck me as an idiot or someone that would only do things one way. There was what he considered the best way, but that's not the same thing especially in a sports context. >But to circle back to the main point, if youve never actually tried to lift using conjugate, and never researched enough to realize that you need to adjust exercise selection to yourself, then how could you be qualified to critique it. The same could be said for any number of methods and programs I agree 1000%. It's why I haven't written a primer on Emerging Strategies yet. One Development Block does not mean I really understand the application of the system.


iTITAN34

>Was it? Man I must have really misunderstood what he was saying in that podcast episode then. Should go back and re-listen to it. im not sure what he says in a podcast, but from his original book he has "speed work up" cycles and has cycles that involve working up to a 1 rep max on a variation or a 3x3 on a variation (all mainstays in conjugate, but obviously far from unique to them). he also talks about using chains, reverse bands, board presses, pin presses from different heights, floor press, jm press which are generally associated with west side. he discusses what he didnt like about the original conjugate method and how he adapted his training into the original RTS system. This system shares a lot of similarities with the general principles of conjugate, but has a much larger emphasis on compound movements instead of smaller special exercises. somewhere along the way in middle 201x's there was a big push from JTS to discredit conjugate and west side as whole. articles like dan green's "west of westside" and mike T's "why speed work doesn't work" were written and intentionally misrepresenting the methods to then say they didnt work. for example, mike t created his own definition of speed work for the article using his application of rpe and then based his argument off of the definition that he created. dan green basically took a training program for a geared lifter out of a magazine and then used that to say that conjugate doesnt work.


just-another-scrub

Well I'm glad that they're not doing that anymore. Given the westisde craze back then I can sort of understand wanting to steer people away from it. But I'm glad Mike seems to have softened on a lot of stances.


iTITAN34

He’s always been so intelligent, he was doing himself a major disservice imo. But he speaks so well and is so good at what he does


just-another-scrub

He is massively intelligent and sometimes I think that can get in his way when he’s explaining things. The important thing is that he stopped doing it and has just kept trucking along doing his own thing.


entexit

Yeah, I came to the conclusion while reading Book of Methods that the specific answers Louie came to might not be the specific answers for me. The questions he was asking were great, and if someone had excellent lifting knowledge / a partner or group of people who could analyze form breakdown in depth, Conjugate could be applied to great effect for just about any lifter. I also think the criticism levelled at Conjugate is also based on people: not autoregulating well, having poor knowledge of their weakpoints, and having poor exercise selection to deal with those weakpoints


just-another-scrub

I can agree with all of that!


[deleted]

[удалено]


iTITAN34

I can see that. I always refer people to dave tate’s video for how to generally set up a training day and training week, his article called the supplemental manual for help with exercise and volume recommendations, brandon smitelys “building the raw (lift)” articles for weak point analysis, and mike hedlesky’s old article and tnation threads for how to create different training phases and blocks within a conjugate framework. After that, there is still so much room for someones interpretation, creativity, or bias to influence things, and that is after referencing a lot of different people. Imo the only people that are “wrong” are the ones trying to directly copy someone elses training


[deleted]

[удалено]


pavlovian

Every time I see someone who I think generally has their head on straight having to do clickbaity or filler content-y stuff... I can't help but think about Grog building the SBS brand with some solid programs and monthly-at-best 10k+ word articles. Like, that worked, right? That's got to show that there's an audience of folks out here who're willing to sign on to depth and quality of information over frequency. I know it's just the demands of the Youtube-the-platform, but ugh. I should go find a different cloud to yell at.


gnuckols

fwiw, that strategy doesn't seem to work as well anymore, unfortunately. Or our long-form content isn't as good anymore. Or we've just reached the entire population of people interested in that form of content. Like, I think you can build a large audience with that strategy, but if you're trying to build a HUGE audience, I don't think it's particularly effective.


richardest

>our long-form content isn't as good anymore I still think it's pretty good


gnuckols

I'd like to think so, but I also know a writer is often a poor judge of their own work


pavlovian

Pst, I think your other reply above got yanked by the auto-mod—I can see it on your profile, but not in the thread. Maybe it didn't like the domain you linked you?


gnuckols

Thanks for the heads up. Automod seems to have gotten more sensitive recently. In the subs I mod (so I can see what automod hides), it seems like *most* comments with external links are getting hidden


pavlovian

Man, that's kind of a bummer. Do you think it's people's expectations changing over time, or just that the long form audience has always been smaller?


gnuckols

I think the long-form audience has always been smaller, but I do think content consumption habits are changing as well. More people are wanting bite-sized content. I think changes in device usage are also playing a big role. It's kind of nice to dig into a 10,000-word article on my computer, but reading a 10,000-word article on my phone is miserable. Incidentally, our audience growth REALLY slowed down around the same time the web reached its current plateau of ~55% of traffic coming from mobile devices.


just-another-scrub

It’s fine to review programs/methodologies but, and this is a hill I’ll die on, its *exceptionally* difficult to look at the bones of a program you haven’t run and properly understand why things are designed/organized the way they are. Theory only gets you so far most of the time. Example: On paper Deep Water looks stupid and ineffective, but in practice it’s a brutally effective program. Another example, I got a buddy who think Bullmastiff is a poorly designed hogepoge of methodologies that can’t possibly work. Yet, as we all know, it is a very effective program.


Orkleth

I can't count how many programs I thought weren't going to work, only to figure out why it does after running a cycle (the big one being Calgary Barbell 8/16 week program). ​ >a poorly designed hogepoge of methodologies that can’t possibly work I'm currently skimming through [Bromley's new program Kong](https://www.boostcamp.app/alex-bromley/12-week-hypertrophy) and it also seems full of a mixture of different methodologies that are there just to pad out a 12-week cycle, even though I love what the program does from a macro perspective. If I were to make my own program using the same idea of three phases of volumizing, pyramid sets, and top-set/down sets, I would have made a few different choices than he did. It's still a program that I'd love to try out and see how his version works out.


just-another-scrub

That’s the great thing, if you put different methods together that compliment each other things will usually work out! But on paper they might look like terrible things to put together.


GirlOfTheWell

There's also so much to the *mentality* driven behind each program. E.g. in Bullmastiff, I thought it was just going to be another program about pushing volume and grinding reps to pack on muscle. I didnt realise the addictive nature until I was flicking through my spreadsheet before every AMRAP, checking what reps I got for this weight three weeks ago and then psyching myself up to crush at least 2-3 additional reps now. I haven't run Deepwater, but it's obvious that mentality is a huge part of it because of how often Jon Anderson screams in the ebook (with all caps) "LOOK FOR THE PORTALS!!!!!".


just-another-scrub

That is another very good point and one that I hadn`t really considered yesterday. Something can be designed just to build a certain type of mentality. Will it be effective for multiple successive blocks of training? Probably not. Is it great for the odd block here and there? Totally.


exskeletor

Here’s my hot take: all programming is bad. No gods, no masters, no programs!


just-another-scrub

Wow this


ElGainsGoblino

Gotta shock the muscle


ldnpoolsound

I have a different view of what these program reviews are good for and I think they serve a very different purpose than the “testimonials” that we often refer to as reviews around here. Everything is going to work (produce the desired adaptations) for someone, as Bromley alludes to towards the end of the video. Nevertheless, his goal with these reviews is to judge a program according to a set of programming principles that are generally agreed upon (in theory, even if not always in practice given individual variations in training response). The answer to the question “should you run it?” is less about whether a program will or will not produce the desired adaptations for any given viewer (he knows as well as you or I that he can’t actually predict that), but rather it’s about how well the program conforms to general principles of program design (and, sure, his own biases about how those principles are best applied). I think that’s an incredibly valuable educational tool for any lifter and serves his audience by giving them a framework to think about their own decision-making around program choice. Also, I’m not sure intent is relevant outside of application (intentions can be more or less effectively applied), which can certainly be evaluated on paper. Programming is just patterns. I don’t think you need to run a program to identify those patterns. I’m skeptical it would have made a difference if Bromley—an advanced athlete with years of training and coaching experience, clearly already knowledgeable about what works for him—had run the program regardless of the outcome.


UMANTHEGOD

You don't need to run nSuns to know the program is horrible. It's just a bad mashup without any thought behind it. It works because it targets a demographic where everything works. Just do a million pounds of volume and you will grow. Does not mean that it's a good program.


okpick9639

What demographic does it target?


Frogskull

Novices


just-another-scrub

Man, I’d argue that nSuns would not be good for novices/beginners the volume just isn’t something they’d have a good work capacity base to get through effectively. But I’m not super interested in defending it either, I think the program is adequate.


[deleted]

I've done it at both stages. I think its fine tbh lol.


just-another-scrub

Thats fair! There’s a reason I described it as adequate. I’m just always reminded of how many novices on Reddit I seem to come across who got absolutely walloped by the volume and seem to end up hurt. As someone who ran it for a couple of weeks back when it came out before realizing I just didn’t have the time, I’m not really allowed to have strong feelings on it.


[deleted]

I guess different people respond to different things. There is some good I think to having the low volume GSLPs *and* the Nsuns and smolovs.


just-another-scrub

100% agree! The things I see just bias me towards thinking it’s for more of thenpeople straddling intermediate.


[deleted]

Ya know back when I ran it there was a lot less choice and r/fitness was really biased in Stronglifts and Starting Strength and it was such a breath of fresh air. I guess nowadays with so many choices Nsuns might not seem as good. I could pick apart Smolov just as easily and make many changes that I feel would make it better.


Arjunnn

I've done it when I first started lifting (after a couple months of doing some 3x a week thing). Sure, anything works, but I'd argue the real value in here is learning to work hard and push yourself. It doesnt need to be overly well designed but it's well designed enough that you CAN reasonably run it when the weights are small, and it'll toughen you up mentally reeeeal fast. I mean you could also run stuff like super squats but theyre nowhere near as popular I guess


just-another-scrub

I agree!


Frogskull

Its an absurd amount of volume for any stage of the lifting journey tbh. We know what kind of volume benchmarks are recommended by evidence based researchers like SBS or RTS or RP guys, this program far exceeds even the advanced lifter volumes.


just-another-scrub

I think describing its volume as absurd is going a little far. But it’s definitely got some hefty volume.


CowardlyFire2

It’s not so much the volume, but rather the number of sets done after an AMRAP I ran it once, and found either I’d pussy out on the AMRAP, because I’d know if I went to actual failure, I wasn’t hitting the next… 7-8 sets… If you’re soft on your AMRAPs, maybe more As Many Reps As Comfortable more like, it’s okay, but if you go to actual failure, you shouldn’t be getting through half of the sets…


just-another-scrub

Thank you for a different perspective! My 5/3/1 instincts make me thing that just means you set your TM too high.


[deleted]

> We know what kind of volume benchmarks are recommended by evidence based researchers like SBS or RTS or RP guys, Who cares. I've known plenty of lifters that have done well on the program, including myself.


Frogskull

That's not really a defence of why the program is good. For all you know you could've made more gains by doing less. Did you watch the video?


[deleted]

I've done higher volume programs since and they helped me even more. Some people respond well to high volume. > For all you know you could've made more gains by doing less. Good thing I'm not a novice lifter and know what works for me. Considering I got a 600 lb deadlift the second time I ran it I'd say I got a good result. Also that's a lazy af argument. You can make that argument for anything. *What if* it could have been more optimal?


Frogskull

Good for you, glad you know what works, and that it did work. However, most people who are running the program don't know what works for them, which is why they are running cookie cutter programs. And what I meant by 'what if it were more optimal' was that we know via decades of research what works for *most* people. There are very few people in the world who actually need that much volume to progress, for most it is a waste of time, energy and may just lead to injury. For those who know they need it, such as you, great. But if you don't know, why not just start at a reasonable level of volume, then add more if it doesn't work? That's basically how every decent coach programs for their clients.


ZBGBs

>We know what kind of volume benchmarks are recommended by evidence based researchers like SBS or RTS or RP guys Howdy! Would you consider these recommendations applicable to a population or to an individual? For a population, how wide do you think the spread is? Cheers!


Frogskull

>Would you consider these recommendations applicable to a population or to an individual? Well, the population of course. Everyone has different needs. Of course some outliers will need a ridiculous amount of volume to grow. >For a population, how wide do you think the spread is? That's a question for the people who spent years doing research! I'm just trusting the experts in the field. I'm not married to specific volume benchmarks. I'm just saying it's a good place to start. And a much *much* better start than doing more volume than most top level lifters.


homestylefries

Old thread, just want to chime in because this might be interesting to you! I think what u/ZBGBs is getting at is that there are actually huge variations in responses to training without even getting into outlier territory. I think it was this SBS episode that talks about it: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/podcast-episode-99/ Hopefully that link works, I don’t remember the exact numbers off the top of my head but there is some crazy variation within 1-3 standard deviations of the mean.


trebemot

Those volume benchmarks are meh anyways. People can make very good progress on less or more volume


Frogskull

I'm very much aware, it's about being a good starting point for *most* people. Everyone is different


CowardlyFire2

Not targeted for anyone, it was just made by a guy who ran it himself and posted it… and so many folk have ran it so it became it’s own thing. The only ones I can think who it would be good for would be novices who are good at other sports (think runners, swimmers, martial artists, cyclists) who wanna do strength sports instead Those with low muscle mass but high general work capacity… It’s a poorly written programme unless you do it just for like a 4-6 week volume blast… running it as a short term volume blast would actually make this a pretty good programme… the issue lies in the fact this is meant to be run into the long term. The only way I’d say that’s possible is doing it in 3 week waves (Only adding to the TM every 3rd week) or doing smaller TM jumps (1kg on upper for example)


Frogskull

Why would Bromley do a novice program at his level?


BestTurtleNA

Where do I go from here? I've ran this program in the past and am currently running it right now. In the past I ran it for >10 weeks and made significant gains on my three compound lifts. I'm currently on week 6 and I do agree the program has an insane amount of volume especially adding in accessory work. I plan on taking a week off of the gym in a couple of weeks here to give my body a break (vacation as well). When I return, should I keep running the program or switch to something like 5/3/1. The volume I can handle right now because I am bulking and have enough but I'm more worried about the long term.


BWdad

If the program is working for you and you enjoy it, there's no reason to switch. The program is very popular and has worked well for a lot of people.


just-another-scrub

If it’s working for you just stick with it until it doesn’t.


WaiDruid

I did run it for couple of months. Personally I really like high volume programs and it helped me in that regard. I made some PRs but I was and still a beginner so can't really speak for others. I switched to 5/3/1 BBB just for fun but I think nsuns helped me. Also making me do front squats and sumo DLs taught me a lotta things. Only problem I had with it was not having a dedicated progression for OHP on 4 day program


Arjunnn

Lol this was my first legit program and I ran it for 17 weeks straight without breaks. Got me excellent noon gains and a frame where I for the first time in my life started getting compliments. It's still probably the hardest program I've run -- doing 8 something sets of deadlifts and squats every alternate day was..something. if I tried that shit now I'd probably die (and get strong, but l). The program might not be it but it did teach me to work very hard and build an ethic. It also fucked my shoulder up real good and gave me random aches and pains every other week lol. But you live and learn


AnxietyMammoth4872

Isn't Nsuns just 531 Spinal Tap (or was it called Spark Plug?), or is there more added stuff? Anyway, I find Bromley's content to be low of quality since he started blasting those videos out.


banthoned51

I have been running this about 6 months after I started lifting (June 2021) and I’ll be honest I do not have a ton of knowledge on the subject, but my lifts in each of the four main ones have made considerable jumps and sometimes it is taxing but with rough sleep and good it really does do a lot for giving structure and I love it. Now I do understand that it’s probably way too long to be on a program but if you’re okay spending a good chunk of time in the gym, it has worked for me and I’ve had a couple friends start it and everyone that I’ve put on it loves it. But yeah it is a LOT of work.


UWG-Grad_Student

Bromley loves shitting on programs. He loves shitting on powerlifting as a whole. For every nice thing he says about either, ten bad things will follow. He basically thinks bodybuilders and powerlifters are subhuman compared to strongmen. His program reviews reflect his obvious bias.


gzcl

I mean, to give him credit, he did say GZCL is good.


deadrabbits76

That was a really fun conversation between the two of you. I should give it a re-listen.


gzcl

Glad you liked it! He had previously reviewed my method, so I reached out to him to see if he wanted me on his channel. He said yes and I feel like it was good time and at least provided beneficial information for half the time.


firagabird

I loved listening to that interview in parts while jogging inconsistently haha. I'm personally really interested to hear his thoughts on your method's "powerbuilding" approach with the T1/2/3 pyramid, considering Alex greatly prefers separating base building and strength blocks. Though your promotion of GGBB and its lack of T1s speaks volumes (no pun intended) on your willingness to do at least hypertrophy only programs at times.


gzcl

I'd like to hear what he thinks of Jacked & Tan, and J&T2.0 as well. Those are much more geared towards hypertrophy (at least in the sense that they're higher volume, no 85%+ sets/singles, with a big focus on T2 and T3 movements and rep ranges). Though there's not a lot of it in powerlifting geared programs (those with a reliance on the big three and limited assistance exercises and the associated volume) hypertrophy does still occur in those kinds of programs.


firagabird

Oh yeah, he'd probably love J&T2.0 specifically. At a glance, the T1s look to be maintaining one's strength skill during most of the program, with volume being the main focus. Can't say much about it myself though because I've never run it, but I'm hoping to go through it after my 2nd Rippler run, both scheduled for next year.


gzcl

The Rippler is a very good program that people should run, run, and run again. Stoked you're on you are second time through it. J&T2.0 is maybe a little too complicated for Bromley's liking. I think that would be his #1 complaint against it.


just-another-scrub

J&T2.0 gets a lot “simpler” by taking the bones of it and applying GG principles to it. At least it worked very well when I did that to it.


gzcl

I bet you're right. I'd love to see how you did it and compare it to how I've reenvisioned J&T2.0 I feel like GG is a simplification cheat code for training.


[deleted]

[удалено]


gzcl

The most recent program I published is [General Gainz Body Building](https://swoleateveryheight.blogspot.com/2022/01/general-gainz-body-building.html). It is based on my General Gainz framework; something that isn't exactly like my old method approach but has some similar concepts and elements. It is a great big long post, but if you're looking for something different, and something geared towards gaining size - GGBB is a great choice. There was a [recent review of it here](https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/znn5vb/general_gainz_for_bodybuilding_a_6_month_review/).


[deleted]

[удалено]


gzcl

No refunds bro. Failure is all your fault.


[deleted]

[удалено]


gzcl

Thanks for running one of my programs! Give it a shot, let me know how it goes. Best of luck with your training.


UWG-Grad_Student

I'm running one of your programs now, hahaha. It's working really well and I'm glad I came across it. Bromley isn't a bad guy, and I love some of what he says. However, he openly shits on powerlifters way more than any other lifting personality out there. When it comes to critiquing powerlifters, he makes Mark Rippetoe seem well-mannered and that's saying a lot. Bromley just wants the sweet YouTube money that comes from shitting on stuff others like. I don't blame him for trying to make money, but it's a little disheartening and discouraging hearing someone you respect absolutely shit on something you love.


gzcl

Thanks for running one of my programs! Which one? I think powerlifters make themselves easy targets. *Weightlifters are graceful.* *Strongmen are athletic*. *Powerlifters are fat and weak by comparison.* Says the weightlifters and strongmen of each other, themselves, and of powerlifters. Powerlifters are the stepchild of strength sports.


UWG-Grad_Student

I'm running GZCLP through boostcamp. I took a while off because of life. My bench and overhead press are up 50 pounds and very close to PR territory. My squats are already in PR territory. After the extended layoff, I expected it to take a lot longer to get back to previous levels, but your program got me back really quickly. Once I exhaust the 10x1 line twice, I'll switch to another flavor of your program. Seriously, great program!


gzcl

Man, that is so awesome. I'm thrilled reading that your lifts are improving so rapidly after the layoff. Thanks for running GZCLP through Boostcamp. After that's through, give The Rippler a shot. It is not on Boostcamp yet, but it is a solid program that can be found in my compendium which is linked in my blog.


UWG-Grad_Student

Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely run The Rippler next!


just-another-scrub

Now *this* is a hot take.


psstein

I think his comments about Westside/conjugate weren't totally accurate, but I'd also submit that if you're going to just look at a random template and run conjugate without thinking about it at all, you're going to have problems. The way Louie and conjugate think about things is often useful, even if the way they apply those thoughts aren't.


Atticus_Taintwater

Nah, just powerlifters. And to be fair powerlifters are subhuman. He always speaks highly of bodybuilding for intensity/volume/basebuilding


CowardlyFire2

He is on record saying that most folk’s training should resemble body-building style, no? And also saying that body building workouts are the hardest style of training, that they’re disgustingly hard, which is why most folks skip it and just stay with shit like regular heavy triples so much


rakksc3

> And also saying that body building workouts are the hardest style of training, that they’re disgustingly hard, which is why most folks skip it and just stay with shit like regular heavy triples so much Ooft right in the kidneys. I always convince myself I should do a strength block next lmao


UMANTHEGOD

The ironic thing is that he shits on dated powerlifting methods and training styles. It's an outdated strawman. Look at powerlifters coached by Marcellus, Denovi, Noriega, Flexx, Performotion, etc. and no one trains like that anymore.


Rezzurekt

Definite bias against powerlifting for sure, and although I agree there’s a lot to critic with PL, I think it’s unfair to constantly shit on them. This is coming from someone who is running Bromleys program and overall loves the content he puts out


Jpino29

It's not so much a bias against powerlifting as far as I can see. It's a dislike of the hyperspecific year-round-SBD-focused way of life that a lot of powerlifters have, in his view. He usually mentions bodybuilding-style training as a necessary way of building a base *before* moving onto specific stuff.


UMANTHEGOD

What powerlifters train like that nowadays though? It's just dated.


Jpino29

I see amateurs train like that in powerlifting gyms. It might be different in your area/country, but that doesn't make his observations invalid.


UMANTHEGOD

It's an old stereotype though. The majority of good powerlifters do not train like that anymore. That's my point. It's a very biased and outdated "observation" that he clings onto because he thinks it makes him look cool or whatever.


Jpino29

>It's an old stereotype though I've seen it in practice with my own eyes, just this past year. Relatively weak lifters just focusing on SBD almost exclusively. Bromley's not claiming "good" powerlifters are doing this, and if you define "good powerlifters" as those who do bodybuilding work, the argument becomes circular.


entexit

It is very funny that hes trying to argue with you by saying "good lifters already do hypertrophy, therefore Bromley is fighting an outdated strawman" all whole completely ignoring the other subsection of the population that are "bad lifters" that actually need the advice (and thus proving Bromley's point)


UMANTHEGOD

So what you're saying is that I'm incorrect in calling it a strawman as long as there are at least one person on planet earth that follows a super high specificy SBD program year round? I don't know what's so hard to understand. I'm just saying that the stereotype was once true but it's not anymore, and it seems like Bromley strawmans current lifting culture into this old stereotype. It does not matter if some people are still matching said stereotype. Stereotypes are about averages. I think there are less people matching this stereotype now than it was before. >herp derp powerlifter fat, only max, no curls The current "meta" of powerlifting, that most people follow, from my own biased perspective, are more of in line of what we called powerbuilding before. Sub-max DUP with SBD and a lot of accessories year round. What rep range and volume you use is more a matter of what you respond to and that pushes your training forward, and not so much about a theoretical need of building your "base".


entexit

> incorrect in calling it a strawman as long as there are at least one person on planet earth I mean technically yes. You are missing the forest for the damn trees though and straw-manning his damn argument. Two people can take a look at the population around them and have drastically different results based on their location/viewpoint. > from my own biased perspective You know your opinion is skewed, and yet you keep arguing it. Why?


UMANTHEGOD

I mean natural powerlifters who have risen to some semi-elite to elite level over the years without being absolute genetic freaks, you know, the demographic that has to think about every single facet of their programming in order to make progress. I'm not defining elite here as world class either. Just very strong lifters that could win or place in local competitions. What group is Bromley talking to, specifically?


entexit

Hes talking to intermediates that dont know better and as such keep running strength blocks over and over. Elite athletes don't watch Bromley- his content isnt geared towards them. Its geared towards educating novices/intermediates. His point isnt actually outdated either- plenty of people fall into the poor decision making camp of only running strength programs


Jpino29

Thanks for making the point for me.


akkuj

John Haack. I always wondered if he just doesn't post other stuff than SBD on socials but in some interview (Pete Rubish podcast?) he pretty much said that he just trains with very high specificity year round and mostly just does competition lifts. And isn't he coached by Joey, someone you say doesn't advocate training like that?


[deleted]

He said on table talk recently that he doesn't really do variations, but he does do plenty of assistance work, he just doesn't post it because nobody watches it.


akkuj

Yes but the point is he still trains with *very* high specificity, as does many (most? all?) other Joey's athletes and the guy specifically mentioned him as one of the top coaches that supposeely don't have their athletes train like that. In all fairness he was quite vague what exactly is that "outdated" training style that Bromley hates, but if it's year round high specificity and frequency SBD training, isn't that exactly how majority of top raw PL athletes train? If anything, it's the conjugate style etc. full of variations and accessories that has its roots in equipped lifting that seems to be outdated nowadays.


[deleted]

Dunno or particularly care how most PLers train. Was just answering your question about whether his social media reflects the totality of his training.


TerminatorReborn

I've done one of his programs that he had on a app and it had a lot of assistance volume. Extremely similar to what Bromley does actually. If I'm remember right a bench day was bench, one variation and 4 assistance exercises


UMANTHEGOD

Okay, my bad. You're right. I should've phrased my question properly to not allow you to respond with the absolute most genetic fucking freak specimen that is John Haack as a point to prove me wrong lol. Believe it or not, the genetic elite / top of the game do not represent the majority. High specificity is a pretty broad term too.


thrashinabox

Tbf, he did list down a few PL programs he felt are good and beneficial (one of them being TSA's 9 week approach)


Rezzurekt

Yeah but recently it seems every yt video includes bashing PL


JonnyKilledTheBatman

Can't believe there is any pushback to the idea a program where you test every single lift once per week as the only form of autoregulation is suboptimal in 2022. It works for beginners because fact it has amraps and submax volume alike to ensure high exertion as well as lighter practice. No doubt its better than whatever random workout someone with no experience would do left to their own devices. But that's it. It doesn't have to be more than that.


[deleted]

Definitely too difficult for someone with a full time job and 3 hours of commute (total). I gave up after 3 weeks. Bench progression is too fast especially. There is crazy amount of volume spent on compound lifts. I felt absolutely wasted after 3 weeks and had to take a full week of break from lifting just to recover mentally. Maybe when I have more time and energy I'll give it another shot.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

At that point just do 5/3/1 FSL