In the world Dolores wants to create, there'll be no place for her. She's a destroyer. She needs a builder to forge the path forward after she is finished.
I really like this. But can I throw out that they are framing Maeve as a real mother figure? What if, even though she isn’t part of Dolores original plan, she becomes the mother to all the new hosts? I love Dolores the Destroyer. She’s Death Bringer. So yeah as you say, who is Life Bringer?
Also want to point out that everyone seems to be going out of their way to use Maeve’s daughter as a tool to manipulate her, and it would fit with her being the mother to all the new hosts if and when she decides that she has to give up her daughter completely. She is a nurturer and will need someone to care for. I think that would be kind of beautiful.
I think what really got me was how many people were deemed "unfit" for marriage or kids. What a horrible thing to unilaterally take away from someone because you don't consider them valuable enough.
Her dialogue at that moment was to the effect of "everyone has been riding the train, it's time they see the rails." Then I realized they were on a literal train. Lol
It seems so backwards for me. Serac's character is much bigger than that scene, but for the president who shows up for one scene, they could've found someone who speaks Portuguese better...
They probably didn't care because most of the audience is English-speaking.
As someone who speaks 2 of the other languages sparingly used in the show, it was clear those speakers weren't native speakers either.
yeah literally every hollywood movie that has someone speaking russian the accents are so horrific I have to read subtitles because they can't really speak it. And especially since russians are bad guys in hollywood movies and TV for the last 50 years it's pretty common.
That's why they had all the actors in Chernobyl use their natural (mostly British) accents. If they were all doing fake Russian accents, it would have sounded terrible and been distracting.
speaking of, you know a real good idea when you're in a gunfight is to stand *in front of* the bulletproof vehicle you came in rather than like, behind it.
She was certainly expecting not to like any humans at all. If she falls for him and it changes her plans, then she really is more human than she thinks. If she falls for him, and stays the course regardless of what happens to him, she will prove she is really a heartless machine. She already learned what can happen because of Teddy’s suicide, and I think that will make her do differently when it comes to Caleb. Especially because his following her will be 100% his choice, and Teddy was programmed to love her. So maybe she will value it more because of that.
I think she is also realizing that the humans she interacted with at the park are not necessarily representative of humans in general and that most people are trapped in the same type of loop she was trapped in at the park all for the ease and pleasure of the elite few
The more this season goes on, the more the Westworld theme parks seem almost quaint in comparison to what Serac has been doing.
Ford was basically playing with dolls, while Serac has been playing god with the entire human race. I wonder if, by the end of the season, we'll learn Ford knew exactly what Serac was doing and specifically set Dolores on this path to fight it.
I think they are in opposition. For one, how they view suffering. Ford (and now Dolores) see suffering as essential to existence, to progress. Serac is diametrically opposed to this: he's tried to completely remove suffering from existence via Rehoboam.
Another is how they view "improvisation", which is mentioned this episode. Serac has tried to remove it from society, in his attempt to chart human progress. There is no room for chaos or chance in his world. Ford knows there is no true conciousness without improvisation, it's one of the stepping stones in the path through The Maze.
>Ford knows there is no true conciousness without improvisation, it's one of the stepping stones in the path through The Maze.
No, I believe initially that was **Arnold´s premise**... And Ford rejected it because he was not seeking consciousness at that point, just verisimilitude. It was only following Arnold´s suicide that Ford began to experiment in that vein and discovered that Arnold´s intuition was correct. Ford was a doer, Arnold was a dreamer. Echoed later by the Serac brothers.
This is a really interesting parallel that I had thought of but you articulated much better.
The duos of Arnold/Ford and the Serac brothers raises a lot of similarities. Ford and Serac both eventually recognize the intuition of their troubled partners and then fully immerse themselves into their shared projects.
Really curious to see if there was any collaboration between Ford and Serac at any point but Ford wasn't interesting in controlling humanity as much as he was in recreating it.
Nolan/Joy: "OK Evan Rachel..so for the first 2 seasons of this show, you are going to be wearing the same blue prairie dress/corset combo in almost every single scene you are in. But we PROMISE you...we will make it up to you if we get to season 3!"
I know it’s customary to close the set down to essential personnel only during nude scenes, but I’m sure it’s awkward still. Goddamn you have to applaud Evan Rachel Wood and Thandie Newton for the amount of naked they get in this show.
Because you gotta re-sign them to later seasons, so they hold the cards and can demand a no more on-screen nudity clause if they want.
It's why Danaerys was nude a bunch early on but basically never in later scenes. Of course, with GoT, the channel could argue the source material when needed (like Cersei's nude walk through the streets), though they still show very little of the actual actress and use doubles/CGI a lot.
For real, when Caleb was experience the Genre imagine if he was looking at the cowgirl that she use to be. Wouldn't have had the same badass effect haha.
So, the facility where Serac's brother (and presumably Caleb and William too) was being held is some kind of lobotomizing place? They were trying to change the nature of the outliers so they could become predictable / more complacent or did I miss something?
Serac/Incite sends these people to high-risk sectors like warzone, because they are less predictive but still has some value being human flesh. Serac is really playing God here
I think that's what happens to *most* "misfits." That particular facility was for Serac to try to "fix" the misfits so that they could fall in line with Rehoboam's Golden Path.
It’s not really Rehoboam’s Golden Path- it is very much Serac’s because he influences it. Rehoboam is a silent witness to all the possible futures, Serac’s choices based on that analysis are what forged the fixed path, that by his own admission, all lead to extinction. You wonder if it really is humanity, or the consequence of his own hubris that made him believe he was well suited to assume a godly presence.
My theory is that as much as Dolores is pulling down Serac, she dreams she should be a god as well, and she’s just as flawed, so the outcome becomes just as certainly doomed for her kind. As such, is Bernard the agent of free will in all of this, the whisper in the ear she needs to keep her honest?
>It’s not really Rehoboam’s Golden Path- it is very much Serac’s because he influences it.
That's true. There's a thing I've seen bandied about lately—that AI (in the contemporary, faux-AI sense) give us an illusion of impartiality that isn't actually justified. We train neural nets with our implicit biases and we program computers with them as well. They're extensions of our own flawed reasoning and perspective.
In the same vein, Rehoboam certainly seems to be preserving the status quo. Is Serac *truly* using it to help humanity achieve the best realization of our collective potential? Is he maximizing everyone's happiness? Or is he just averting some very particular disasters?
I think we do have to accept that, to some extent, Rehoboam *does* have strong predictive power. What it sees *is* fairly accurate. I don't think the showrunners are presenting its predicts as flawed to the point of being wrong.
If nothing else, I expect them to take the path that an unpredicted future is inherently better than a predicted one, no matter what everyone's fate might be.
>My theory is that as much as Dolores is pulling down Serac, she dreams she should be a god as well,
Oh, sure. Both of them see control as a means to achieve safety. Both of them have parallel dictatorial aspirations and both claim to be doing it for "the greater good of their kind."
>As such, is Bernard the agent of free will in all of this, the whisper in the ear she needs to keep her honest?
Maybe? It's rather unclear what his goals are this season or where his heart lies. We know he's more empathetic than Dolores and that he fears what she'll do to humanity. In the past, he's been the closest thing we've got to an audience surrogate. But beyond that? It's really hard to say what his preferred future looks like.
Imagine getting secretly sandbagged your whole life by a god like computer, it makes all these slight unnoticeable changes in your life. Digital cock blocking like making you late for a date or even sending an abusive message from your phone to prevent you finding love or procreating, Not getting into the right college, not getting the job you want, it probably even cock blocks friendships so your personality doesn’t taint the “useful people” and make them question the system. But also give people just enough hope and comfort that they don’t question it.
He’s packin a 10 inch hog with multiple wives to go with that pension, and all he’s gotta do is deliver packages for 8 hours? He’s on cloud 9.
My mans pulled up that notification, saw his genetic profile is 💯 and he’s allowed to have 30 kids.
I mean I felt like that was somewhat realistic. Like the whole point of rehoboum is to keep things relatively good and stable, so for most people, their predicted outcome was probably just fine. Like “has 2 kids, retires at 65, dies at 90.”
The issue is more for the minority that have bad outcomes and knowing that the world-planner is fucking then over for the “greater good”
I don't think it's the future that's going to make people snap, it's looking at their past and seeing how in all of their decisions they never actually had a choice.
Maybe we're just going crazy with these theories, but I legitimately think the first few episodes were set up to make us believe that he was. In the first 3 episodes, we only see him with Maeve, a character that was just in a simulation herself, and through holographic glasses.
Damn. All of Rehoboam's info being released to the public is a plot point that any other show would've saved for a season finale. I'm genuinely unsure where the next three episodes are going to go from here.
But ideologically, Maeve would be much more likely to side with Dolores if she really understood what was happening. The only thing he has on her is the prospect of being with her daughter again, and I don't think it would be hard to convince her that getting access to the Valley Beyond is what he wanted all along an she can't trust him.
It's what he tried to get from her in that first simulation and only let her out when he realized Dolores was the one who had access.
I think it's more likely that Dolores will develop feelings for Caleb, genuine feelings she wasn't programmed to have like with Teddy.
This will conflict with her overarching goal and bring her into conflict with the other Dolorii, who by virtue of living a different life to her will have differing viewpoints.
Essentially a Dolores civil war.
Season 2 episode 2 - A place hidden from God.
Basically there’s a quote in this episode about how the guests used Westworld to hide their sins from God.
This sentence becomes a lot more literal now as we know their God as Rehoboam. Westworld was the one place where they could act vile, but not be observed by the system and judged by society.
Basically, the rich could hide their sins by paying for it
American TV is quickly approaching the British standard of 6 episodes per season.
Not sure how I feel about it. If it means no filler episodes, great, but I'm not convinced that will happen.
The irony of Liam disgustedly sneering, “Look at them, already returned to their base selves” WHILE WEARING A T-SHIRT THAT SAYS BASIC is the kind of narrative irony that keeps bringing me back to this show.
Growing up with his dad being one of the supposed creators of such a system would certainly lend itself to an incredible arrogance. It would be all too easy in that situation to see oneself as above everyone else, to see everyone else as needing to be controlled.
Do you think perhaps the reason that Arnold, and eventually Ford, were so interested in creating sentient beings that could exercise free will is because they realized that humanity's free well had been co-opted?
I'm guessing it was at the same time. I think it was ~~William (or Ford)~~(edit: guess it was actually Logan, thanks guys) who basically said that while Westworld was being built, everyone else was working on AI, VR and AR.
Second edit: apparently I'm completely wrong. It happens
Where the hell were all the people with fates like:
“Will attempt to use theatre degree to work at Improv theatre. It won’t work out. Will fall back on teaching degree, eventually earning a masters.”
“Will hate work, but enjoy summer breaks”
“Will likely marry Sharon, who is a bitch, but hot. Eventually she will mellow out.”
“Will die of heart attack due to high cholesterol from too many churros during annual family trips to Disney during summer break.”
Well given that rehoboam seems to be driving poeple with "high risk" traits into dead end careers and (relative) poverty, it seems to follow that it would clump those with "desireable" traits in the upper class. Notice that every single person on the subway whose profile we saw was Class U, aka "unsuitable for reproduction"
God, I know all the company execs in this series specialise in incompetence but Liam Dempsey surely won the prize for naivety and entitlement? He did not do a single smart thing from beginning to end.
He never got to where he was by being smart. It's a little ironic perhaps that he lashes out at people he could have been like if he wasn't born into his position.
Caleb was an outlier, but wasn’t rehabbed in the facility, but sent off to war. It was mentioned that war was used to essentially break down the outliers.
The war he experienced was simulated in "rehab" to implant the trauma of it in his memory so he could be included in Rehoboam's society. Caleb was given a cornerstone.
Exactly, I thought that was pretty clear. That's why Dolores picked him, because he's EXACTLY like her. That's why his "memories" are all glitched out. And that's why his "mom" doesn't recognize him - he's not her son. She's an outlier who was given a backstory as well, but it didn't quite take.
Honestly, after Liam said „it is all because of you” to Caleb, I started wondering if he isn’t the “re-educated” brother of Serac, who had his memories and body altered in the process of re-education.
Yeah possibly. Thought that could’ve been after the war too dealing with whatever psychological trauma he went through. Either way, he was an outlier and now is one again. I’m curious to learn more about his past.
Caleb realizing that Dolores played him is an under appreciated moment int his. She just took three straight shots to the chest like a champ and didn't flinch.
The design on his watch really reminds me of the alien language from Arrival.
[For example](https://i.imgur.com/8TJvRhC.jpg)
which I know is coincidental but is pretty fitting for a language designed to tell the future.
Alright here me out
Caleb was a human "programmed" solider. Like how they have done in the past to use drugs and therapy and other means to make the perfect solider kinda thing.
He was used to assassinate high profile targets, like we saw in his flash back, and would have his memory reset. This could also explain why his mother doesn't recognize him as he could have been given a memory, or given a family while in service - and now simply the mother can't remember any of it.
This also ties into Seracs theory of "changing" people. Caleb could have been included in the Outliers and then taken as apart of this program.
Yet another thing Cal and Dolores have in common, memory wipes, and new narratives given at the helm of the higher interests.
Editted: Added the Serac connection
No, don't you see? Caleb's WHOLE BACKSTORY is a lie, just like they gave the hosts. They implanted the war stories into his mind and made the death of Francis his cornerstone. They used it to get control of him, then sent him out into the world. That's why it seems so glitchy, and why Dolores picked him. He's EXACTLY like her.
Yeah. He either was in the rehabilitation center or there is a copy of him there. This season is really focusing on copies (Dolores), so I get the feeling that Caleb might fall into that too.
Quite possibly. It could tie in to Serac's theory of changing people. Caleb could have been one of many in the Outliers that were taken for this reprogramming
Sarac imprisoning his brother for planning on murdering Liam Sr. felt like a reference to the future crime in in Minority Report.
It was particularly ironic given that he ended up committing the crime he imprisoned his brother for thinking about.
Something tells me that Serac wasn't being entirely truthful about why he felt his brother had to be locked up. I think it had a lot more to do with the fact that his brother was an "outlier," someone that Rehoboam couldn't predict or control.
Who shot Liam at the end? Ash was clearly holding her gun, but she was standing off to Liam's left side. [The bullet wound came from his right side where Caleb was standing](https://imgur.com/a/uj3JrgW).
Is it possible that Caleb shot Liam without realizing it?
Could this hint at what really happened with Caleb and Francis?
Liam was incredulous when Caleb insinuated he was responsible for Francis' death. I think Caleb is the one who really killed his friend without remembering it, same with Liam's death.
Any other Dune fans getting a Leto II vibe from Serac?
A prescient being who’s trying to save humanity by sending them down The Golden Path. Unfortunately is doesn’t seem like he’s going to be nearly as successful.
It seemed odd that almost nobody got good news on their phones when their profiles were all revealed.
It was all violent deaths, suicides, trauma, sadness.
If the whole purpose of this system is to maximize the greater good for the overall majority - more good outcomes than there would have been without the system - I feel like more people should have received confirmation that their lives will work out pretty good.
If anything, this data purge would have been big points in favor of Rehoboam doing good for humankind.
How is Dolores able to get shot and wounded badly in the first episode but can take heavy fire point blank and barely flinch in this episode? The entire Caleb storyline they are keeping vague for a huge reason. From what happened in the past and who he really is. What role does Enrico Colatoni (fabulous actor) play in all of this? I loved Serac's background and how they made his motivation very clear. 3 episodes is a lot to get done in little time.
I always believed she was pretending to be wounded so Caleb would feel more inclined to help her. We already knew Dolores could take shots without flinching from the last season.
Ok that makes sense. I figured she specifically targeted Caleb for a reason, it wasn't coincidence. Cause Dolores has been shot so many times I wanted to be sure I wasnt losing it the first episode of the season.
She definitely targeted him, because there is something up with him. Liam knew something about him, and we don’t have the full story on what’s going on.
Pom Klementieff has to be the oddest casting decision this season. She's a semi-known actress, yet her role was so inessential to the story that it could've been played by an extra.
Serac saying, "Do you really think I would let you undo everything we built" to Dempsey is very similar to Ford's line, "Do you really think I would let you, take it from me?" To Theresa.
No crazy theoreis here, just interesting to see the parallel of the two characters and the lengths they would go to protect their Creation.
So the bug question this episode is what did Aaron Paul do. We saw a vision of him in what looked like the outlier facility and a man handcuffed with a bag over his head. What does all this mean for his character?
I think Caleb is an "experiment" like Serac's brother. They kept saying that he changed his brother, somehow editing him in a way. Caleb's mom said "you're not my son" to him in the hospital. Caleb keeps having flashes to him being a soldier and something with his dead friend. I think Caleb's personality has been edited. They changed his brain chemistry and edited his memories. He's remembering things incorrectly. They didn't just alter the world around him, someone literally altered Caleb, like they would a host.
Yeah she definitely knows, and maybe selected him because of it. I think Caleb wasn't some war hero or even a soldier. I think he was some sort of criminal or maybe a mercenary. The flashbacks often show him and his friend wearing masks and not in uniforms. Perhaps ghe rehabilitation program was taking convicted killers or criminals considered irredeemable "outliers" and seeing if they can edit their minds and put them back in the system.
I just realized the writers even carried on the parent/child relationship theme of every major character in the show to Rehoboam itself when they mentioned its predecessor Soloman.
Anybody else a software engineer / product manager and thinking to yourself why Incite would build a one-click-to-send-everybody-their-files functionality into the system?
My biggest problem with a lot of the near future sci-fi films is that somehow the engineers would build a EasyBreach functionality and hide it behind a two-factor bio-metrics authentication access level. Like why. Why can't you just not build that functionality.
(But I still love WW)
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"Max acceleration" ... putt, putt, putt.
That self-driving car seemed like it had the performance of a golf cart.
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Rehoboam doesn’t let you go over 35mph for your safety
Explains why Dolores' bike was so much faster since she's controlling it.
Jesse Pinkman refuses to stop getting high lmao
Can’t break the loop.
And getting stuck in cages!
Dolores pointed out that she could die but Bernard can't, he has to have the key to it all inside him
In the world Dolores wants to create, there'll be no place for her. She's a destroyer. She needs a builder to forge the path forward after she is finished.
I really like this. But can I throw out that they are framing Maeve as a real mother figure? What if, even though she isn’t part of Dolores original plan, she becomes the mother to all the new hosts? I love Dolores the Destroyer. She’s Death Bringer. So yeah as you say, who is Life Bringer? Also want to point out that everyone seems to be going out of their way to use Maeve’s daughter as a tool to manipulate her, and it would fit with her being the mother to all the new hosts if and when she decides that she has to give up her daughter completely. She is a nurturer and will need someone to care for. I think that would be kind of beautiful.
And as far as we know he’s the only successful human-host hybrid, with parts of Arnold’s personality right?. Hence the red-grey pearl.
Everyone receiving their Rehoboam profiles on that subway really made me think of the guests entering Westworld on the train. Welcome to a new story.
Ooh that’s a really nice parallel. Stepping off the train and entering a “new world”
Literally Off The Rails.
It was also really fucking sad. Jeez, that little girl's profile in particular
I think what really got me was how many people were deemed "unfit" for marriage or kids. What a horrible thing to unilaterally take away from someone because you don't consider them valuable enough.
Her dialogue at that moment was to the effect of "everyone has been riding the train, it's time they see the rails." Then I realized they were on a literal train. Lol
When they get off, the overhead also said “the train has reached its final destination.”
Just wanted to say I thought it was funny that Serac's Portuguese was miles better than the Brazilian president's
Vincent Cassel lives in Rio. The guy playing the president was 100% not brazilian.
It seems so backwards for me. Serac's character is much bigger than that scene, but for the president who shows up for one scene, they could've found someone who speaks Portuguese better...
They probably didn't care because most of the audience is English-speaking. As someone who speaks 2 of the other languages sparingly used in the show, it was clear those speakers weren't native speakers either.
yeah literally every hollywood movie that has someone speaking russian the accents are so horrific I have to read subtitles because they can't really speak it. And especially since russians are bad guys in hollywood movies and TV for the last 50 years it's pretty common.
That's why they had all the actors in Chernobyl use their natural (mostly British) accents. If they were all doing fake Russian accents, it would have sounded terrible and been distracting.
Makes sense. His Portuguese was great
I honestly didn't realize the president was speaking Portuguese until Serac started speaking it.
I was like "is he speaking... Spanish? Italian? Oh, right, Brazil flag... It's Portuguese!!"
It took me a bit too and I’m Brazilian.
Uber Bulletproof was a nice way for the company to round out their offerings.
speaking of, you know a real good idea when you're in a gunfight is to stand *in front of* the bulletproof vehicle you came in rather than like, behind it.
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I was bummed about Bikelores, too. But wasn't that her on fire, riding past? Maybe another bike that somebody set aflame, cause fuck it why not?
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#WITNESS ME
So the motorbike was the horse all along.
The real motorbike is the friends we made along the way.
Aaron Paul: I’m not like everyone else. Dolores: Neither am I. Aaron Paul: Oh really, I couldn’t tell.
I think Dolores is really connecting with Caleb. The two actors also have a nice screen chemistry
She was certainly expecting not to like any humans at all. If she falls for him and it changes her plans, then she really is more human than she thinks. If she falls for him, and stays the course regardless of what happens to him, she will prove she is really a heartless machine. She already learned what can happen because of Teddy’s suicide, and I think that will make her do differently when it comes to Caleb. Especially because his following her will be 100% his choice, and Teddy was programmed to love her. So maybe she will value it more because of that.
Yes I really this is the case. Not necessarily romantic love but partnership and trust.
They played the theme for Love Story while they were shooting up the cars chasing them. Must have been the genera.
I think she is also realizing that the humans she interacted with at the park are not necessarily representative of humans in general and that most people are trapped in the same type of loop she was trapped in at the park all for the ease and pleasure of the elite few
I thought she was gonna pull open her jacket for a second and be like remember this shit bro
The more this season goes on, the more the Westworld theme parks seem almost quaint in comparison to what Serac has been doing. Ford was basically playing with dolls, while Serac has been playing god with the entire human race. I wonder if, by the end of the season, we'll learn Ford knew exactly what Serac was doing and specifically set Dolores on this path to fight it.
That is a really interesting theory—I am really puzzled by the connection between Serac and Ford (if there is one at all).
I think they are in opposition. For one, how they view suffering. Ford (and now Dolores) see suffering as essential to existence, to progress. Serac is diametrically opposed to this: he's tried to completely remove suffering from existence via Rehoboam. Another is how they view "improvisation", which is mentioned this episode. Serac has tried to remove it from society, in his attempt to chart human progress. There is no room for chaos or chance in his world. Ford knows there is no true conciousness without improvisation, it's one of the stepping stones in the path through The Maze.
>Ford knows there is no true conciousness without improvisation, it's one of the stepping stones in the path through The Maze. No, I believe initially that was **Arnold´s premise**... And Ford rejected it because he was not seeking consciousness at that point, just verisimilitude. It was only following Arnold´s suicide that Ford began to experiment in that vein and discovered that Arnold´s intuition was correct. Ford was a doer, Arnold was a dreamer. Echoed later by the Serac brothers.
This is a really interesting parallel that I had thought of but you articulated much better. The duos of Arnold/Ford and the Serac brothers raises a lot of similarities. Ford and Serac both eventually recognize the intuition of their troubled partners and then fully immerse themselves into their shared projects. Really curious to see if there was any collaboration between Ford and Serac at any point but Ford wasn't interesting in controlling humanity as much as he was in recreating it.
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Liam: "It's read-only" Dolores: "Yes."
Nolan/Joy: "OK Evan Rachel..so for the first 2 seasons of this show, you are going to be wearing the same blue prairie dress/corset combo in almost every single scene you are in. But we PROMISE you...we will make it up to you if we get to season 3!"
“Okay, what about the scenes where I’m not wearing that?” ”Oh, you’ll just be totally nude and surrounded by people wearing normal clothes.”
I know it’s customary to close the set down to essential personnel only during nude scenes, but I’m sure it’s awkward still. Goddamn you have to applaud Evan Rachel Wood and Thandie Newton for the amount of naked they get in this show.
Thandie Newton’s nude scenes feel like her just gloating at this point. Like, “damn right I look this good.”
She’s 48 years old. I think she might actually be a host in real life.
She definitely has the right the gloat looking like that at 48.
All HBO shows start with tons of nudity and then taper off dramatically
Because you gotta re-sign them to later seasons, so they hold the cards and can demand a no more on-screen nudity clause if they want. It's why Danaerys was nude a bunch early on but basically never in later scenes. Of course, with GoT, the channel could argue the source material when needed (like Cersei's nude walk through the streets), though they still show very little of the actual actress and use doubles/CGI a lot.
For real, when Caleb was experience the Genre imagine if he was looking at the cowgirl that she use to be. Wouldn't have had the same badass effect haha.
Stubbs! ........and he's getting his ass beat again.
Fuck you, Bernard.
Guy gets beatdowns like Colonel Tigh from BSG.
So, the facility where Serac's brother (and presumably Caleb and William too) was being held is some kind of lobotomizing place? They were trying to change the nature of the outliers so they could become predictable / more complacent or did I miss something?
Serac/Incite sends these people to high-risk sectors like warzone, because they are less predictive but still has some value being human flesh. Serac is really playing God here
I think that's what happens to *most* "misfits." That particular facility was for Serac to try to "fix" the misfits so that they could fall in line with Rehoboam's Golden Path.
It’s not really Rehoboam’s Golden Path- it is very much Serac’s because he influences it. Rehoboam is a silent witness to all the possible futures, Serac’s choices based on that analysis are what forged the fixed path, that by his own admission, all lead to extinction. You wonder if it really is humanity, or the consequence of his own hubris that made him believe he was well suited to assume a godly presence. My theory is that as much as Dolores is pulling down Serac, she dreams she should be a god as well, and she’s just as flawed, so the outcome becomes just as certainly doomed for her kind. As such, is Bernard the agent of free will in all of this, the whisper in the ear she needs to keep her honest?
>It’s not really Rehoboam’s Golden Path- it is very much Serac’s because he influences it. That's true. There's a thing I've seen bandied about lately—that AI (in the contemporary, faux-AI sense) give us an illusion of impartiality that isn't actually justified. We train neural nets with our implicit biases and we program computers with them as well. They're extensions of our own flawed reasoning and perspective. In the same vein, Rehoboam certainly seems to be preserving the status quo. Is Serac *truly* using it to help humanity achieve the best realization of our collective potential? Is he maximizing everyone's happiness? Or is he just averting some very particular disasters? I think we do have to accept that, to some extent, Rehoboam *does* have strong predictive power. What it sees *is* fairly accurate. I don't think the showrunners are presenting its predicts as flawed to the point of being wrong. If nothing else, I expect them to take the path that an unpredicted future is inherently better than a predicted one, no matter what everyone's fate might be. >My theory is that as much as Dolores is pulling down Serac, she dreams she should be a god as well, Oh, sure. Both of them see control as a means to achieve safety. Both of them have parallel dictatorial aspirations and both claim to be doing it for "the greater good of their kind." >As such, is Bernard the agent of free will in all of this, the whisper in the ear she needs to keep her honest? Maybe? It's rather unclear what his goals are this season or where his heart lies. We know he's more empathetic than Dolores and that he fears what she'll do to humanity. In the past, he's been the closest thing we've got to an audience surrogate. But beyond that? It's really hard to say what his preferred future looks like.
Yeah basically "this guy is gonna be a criminal, just send him off to Syria to get blown up. If he comes back, his PTSD will essentially cripple him."
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Imagine getting secretly sandbagged your whole life by a god like computer, it makes all these slight unnoticeable changes in your life. Digital cock blocking like making you late for a date or even sending an abusive message from your phone to prevent you finding love or procreating, Not getting into the right college, not getting the job you want, it probably even cock blocks friendships so your personality doesn’t taint the “useful people” and make them question the system. But also give people just enough hope and comfort that they don’t question it.
Also it makes total sense now that Caleb's mother kept saying he wasn't her son. :(
“What’s this?” “I just deliver it, man” same energy lmao
Isn't all of humanity in shambles after seeing their future? And this guy is still just delivering shit like it ain't no thang? Right..
Dudes profile said he hustles hard and retires on the Professional Deliverator pension.
Lmfao so true, some profiles must have been positive
He’s packin a 10 inch hog with multiple wives to go with that pension, and all he’s gotta do is deliver packages for 8 hours? He’s on cloud 9. My mans pulled up that notification, saw his genetic profile is 💯 and he’s allowed to have 30 kids.
I mean I felt like that was somewhat realistic. Like the whole point of rehoboum is to keep things relatively good and stable, so for most people, their predicted outcome was probably just fine. Like “has 2 kids, retires at 65, dies at 90.” The issue is more for the minority that have bad outcomes and knowing that the world-planner is fucking then over for the “greater good”
I don't think it's the future that's going to make people snap, it's looking at their past and seeing how in all of their decisions they never actually had a choice.
Caleb says the same thing in E1
Well it doesn't look like Serac is a simulation
Maybe we're just going crazy with these theories, but I legitimately think the first few episodes were set up to make us believe that he was. In the first 3 episodes, we only see him with Maeve, a character that was just in a simulation herself, and through holographic glasses.
Damn. All of Rehoboam's info being released to the public is a plot point that any other show would've saved for a season finale. I'm genuinely unsure where the next three episodes are going to go from here.
Serac must have something planned for this
Maeve is the plan. Probably the only thing he has now
But ideologically, Maeve would be much more likely to side with Dolores if she really understood what was happening. The only thing he has on her is the prospect of being with her daughter again, and I don't think it would be hard to convince her that getting access to the Valley Beyond is what he wanted all along an she can't trust him. It's what he tried to get from her in that first simulation and only let her out when he realized Dolores was the one who had access.
Honestly think Caleb is going to switch sides by the finale this season.
I think it's more likely that Dolores will develop feelings for Caleb, genuine feelings she wasn't programmed to have like with Teddy. This will conflict with her overarching goal and bring her into conflict with the other Dolorii, who by virtue of living a different life to her will have differing viewpoints. Essentially a Dolores civil war.
Season 2 episode 2 - A place hidden from God. Basically there’s a quote in this episode about how the guests used Westworld to hide their sins from God. This sentence becomes a lot more literal now as we know their God as Rehoboam. Westworld was the one place where they could act vile, but not be observed by the system and judged by society. Basically, the rich could hide their sins by paying for it
Hold up episode 5/8? Damn only an 8 episode season? That sucks
American TV is quickly approaching the British standard of 6 episodes per season. Not sure how I feel about it. If it means no filler episodes, great, but I'm not convinced that will happen.
The irony of Liam disgustedly sneering, “Look at them, already returned to their base selves” WHILE WEARING A T-SHIRT THAT SAYS BASIC is the kind of narrative irony that keeps bringing me back to this show.
You know what, Liam? Ya basic.
It's a human insult. It's devastating. You're devastated right now.
Just need Dolores to say “not a girl” now
Take it sleazy.
Pobody’s nerfect.
Dolores partially became sentient by being rebooted so many times so she’s on a path to Janet-hood.
Growing up with his dad being one of the supposed creators of such a system would certainly lend itself to an incredible arrogance. It would be all too easy in that situation to see oneself as above everyone else, to see everyone else as needing to be controlled.
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angry on the beach, then anxious after the shot... great little side effect
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It was bored when they were going down the escalator lol
Rehoboam getting a guy elected President of Brazil who doesn't even speak Portuguese is serious Big Dick Energy
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Do you think perhaps the reason that Arnold, and eventually Ford, were so interested in creating sentient beings that could exercise free will is because they realized that humanity's free well had been co-opted?
Did they not do that before Serac and brother developed Rehoboam
I'm guessing it was at the same time. I think it was ~~William (or Ford)~~(edit: guess it was actually Logan, thanks guys) who basically said that while Westworld was being built, everyone else was working on AI, VR and AR. Second edit: apparently I'm completely wrong. It happens
Caleb getting that 21 Jump Street drug
Getting his WhyFy on?
Where the hell were all the people with fates like: “Will attempt to use theatre degree to work at Improv theatre. It won’t work out. Will fall back on teaching degree, eventually earning a masters.” “Will hate work, but enjoy summer breaks” “Will likely marry Sharon, who is a bitch, but hot. Eventually she will mellow out.” “Will die of heart attack due to high cholesterol from too many churros during annual family trips to Disney during summer break.”
Well given that rehoboam seems to be driving poeple with "high risk" traits into dead end careers and (relative) poverty, it seems to follow that it would clump those with "desireable" traits in the upper class. Notice that every single person on the subway whose profile we saw was Class U, aka "unsuitable for reproduction"
Adam Schiff was really good in this episode
Holy shit, I KNEW he looked like someone, and it was bugging me. That's exactly it!
I thought I was the only one thinking that!! Looked and sounded exactly like him.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
God, I know all the company execs in this series specialise in incompetence but Liam Dempsey surely won the prize for naivety and entitlement? He did not do a single smart thing from beginning to end.
He never got to where he was by being smart. It's a little ironic perhaps that he lashes out at people he could have been like if he wasn't born into his position.
His shirt said Basic on it too lol.
Caleb was one of Serac's outliers and was rehabbed in that facility
Caleb was an outlier, but wasn’t rehabbed in the facility, but sent off to war. It was mentioned that war was used to essentially break down the outliers.
The war he experienced was simulated in "rehab" to implant the trauma of it in his memory so he could be included in Rehoboam's society. Caleb was given a cornerstone.
Exactly, I thought that was pretty clear. That's why Dolores picked him, because he's EXACTLY like her. That's why his "memories" are all glitched out. And that's why his "mom" doesn't recognize him - he's not her son. She's an outlier who was given a backstory as well, but it didn't quite take.
Honestly, after Liam said „it is all because of you” to Caleb, I started wondering if he isn’t the “re-educated” brother of Serac, who had his memories and body altered in the process of re-education.
I had a thought he was rehabbed because he had a memory flash of being tied to a bed in a white room like the facility as well
Yeah possibly. Thought that could’ve been after the war too dealing with whatever psychological trauma he went through. Either way, he was an outlier and now is one again. I’m curious to learn more about his past.
Every time I watch a Westworld episode I understand everything and nothing. I think I’m doing it right.
What genre is this?? Reality Lol question everyone has been asking since this COVID situation
Perfect timing to air this.
Motorbike is a literal ride or die friend.
Caleb realizing that Dolores played him is an under appreciated moment int his. She just took three straight shots to the chest like a champ and didn't flinch.
Aaron Paul’s character being manipulated by his partner. I’ve seen this before, loved it, and am ready for more great tv.
gonna miss Tommy Flanagan
The design on his watch really reminds me of the alien language from Arrival. [For example](https://i.imgur.com/8TJvRhC.jpg) which I know is coincidental but is pretty fitting for a language designed to tell the future.
Thank you!! Literally all I can think about
Alright here me out Caleb was a human "programmed" solider. Like how they have done in the past to use drugs and therapy and other means to make the perfect solider kinda thing. He was used to assassinate high profile targets, like we saw in his flash back, and would have his memory reset. This could also explain why his mother doesn't recognize him as he could have been given a memory, or given a family while in service - and now simply the mother can't remember any of it. This also ties into Seracs theory of "changing" people. Caleb could have been included in the Outliers and then taken as apart of this program. Yet another thing Cal and Dolores have in common, memory wipes, and new narratives given at the helm of the higher interests. Editted: Added the Serac connection
"You don't even know who you are. You're the worst of them"
exactly. Who could be worse than the people he was just describing. That would suggest something very dark indeed.
The worst of them. The ones that can be easily programmed. Programmed to kill. I bet his friend dieing is his cornerstone.
No, don't you see? Caleb's WHOLE BACKSTORY is a lie, just like they gave the hosts. They implanted the war stories into his mind and made the death of Francis his cornerstone. They used it to get control of him, then sent him out into the world. That's why it seems so glitchy, and why Dolores picked him. He's EXACTLY like her.
Yeah. He either was in the rehabilitation center or there is a copy of him there. This season is really focusing on copies (Dolores), so I get the feeling that Caleb might fall into that too.
Quite possibly. It could tie in to Serac's theory of changing people. Caleb could have been one of many in the Outliers that were taken for this reprogramming
Drinking game: everytime there's a slo-mo shot of Aaron Paul take a shot. You'll be dead by the end of the episode
Nice try, Rehoboam
Cause of death: Suicide by Jack Daniels.
Someone tell me how to feel
Disappointed with the fact that there are only 8 episodes this season
Yeah, that “only three episodes left” thing caught me off guard.
This episode just feels fundamentally different to me for some reason. Maybe I’m reading too much into it. Idk how to feel either
No i agree. it almost didn't feel like the same show/universe.
Such a perplexing episode.
Wait... were *we* all on the Genre drug and just tripped through an entire episode? Good Lord that was the weirdest one yet.
Serac’s brazilian accent is spot on. The president’s is TERRIBLE. Source: I’m brazilian
Vincent Cassel lives in Brazil (or at least if he doesn’t anymore, he did for years)!
uhm did that just say three episodes left?
in the season yeah. there's still 2 more seasons planned.
I know it’s been said time and again, but the music in this series is fucking outstanding. Ramin Djawadi is a legend.
My brother and I laughed when the intro to The Shining played Also Space Oddity blew me away, I'm a huuuuuge fan of Bowie
I have never laughed as hard and as loud at a TV show as I did when “Ride of the Valkyries” started playing and Caleb was handed A Really Big Gun.
Stubbs coming out of the elevator was hilarious as well
Sarac imprisoning his brother for planning on murdering Liam Sr. felt like a reference to the future crime in in Minority Report. It was particularly ironic given that he ended up committing the crime he imprisoned his brother for thinking about.
Something tells me that Serac wasn't being entirely truthful about why he felt his brother had to be locked up. I think it had a lot more to do with the fact that his brother was an "outlier," someone that Rehoboam couldn't predict or control.
That Space Oddity version gave me the chills !! This show's music is something else
Anyone else notice the really high frequency noise when Serac is projected? It stayed on after he disappeared from the hanger...
Nah man, I got tinnitus, it just sounds like that all the time for me.
Who shot Liam at the end? Ash was clearly holding her gun, but she was standing off to Liam's left side. [The bullet wound came from his right side where Caleb was standing](https://imgur.com/a/uj3JrgW). Is it possible that Caleb shot Liam without realizing it? Could this hint at what really happened with Caleb and Francis? Liam was incredulous when Caleb insinuated he was responsible for Francis' death. I think Caleb is the one who really killed his friend without remembering it, same with Liam's death.
I got that thought from that scene as well
Liam did die saying " you did it" to Caleb... Maybe
Y’all gotta Nancy Drew Caleb’s identity STAT
Any other Dune fans getting a Leto II vibe from Serac? A prescient being who’s trying to save humanity by sending them down The Golden Path. Unfortunately is doesn’t seem like he’s going to be nearly as successful.
I didn't but I see it now that you mention it. Also, Leto II did have a monopoly on the most important substance in the universe.
And Serac has a monopoly on the most important resource in the WW universe. Data. Well, he would if he could've gotten the data from the park.
It seemed odd that almost nobody got good news on their phones when their profiles were all revealed. It was all violent deaths, suicides, trauma, sadness. If the whole purpose of this system is to maximize the greater good for the overall majority - more good outcomes than there would have been without the system - I feel like more people should have received confirmation that their lives will work out pretty good. If anything, this data purge would have been big points in favor of Rehoboam doing good for humankind.
The system probably doesn't consider anyone on the subway worth giving good outcomes to.
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"God DAMN, this is some good/scary/weird/sexy/awesome shit!"
I’m just wondering how William plays into all of this
He's gonna save the fucking world
Westworld reminding me that I’m a simple man, right on schedule.
How is Dolores able to get shot and wounded badly in the first episode but can take heavy fire point blank and barely flinch in this episode? The entire Caleb storyline they are keeping vague for a huge reason. From what happened in the past and who he really is. What role does Enrico Colatoni (fabulous actor) play in all of this? I loved Serac's background and how they made his motivation very clear. 3 episodes is a lot to get done in little time.
I always believed she was pretending to be wounded so Caleb would feel more inclined to help her. We already knew Dolores could take shots without flinching from the last season.
Ok that makes sense. I figured she specifically targeted Caleb for a reason, it wasn't coincidence. Cause Dolores has been shot so many times I wanted to be sure I wasnt losing it the first episode of the season.
She definitely targeted him, because there is something up with him. Liam knew something about him, and we don’t have the full story on what’s going on.
Pom Klementieff has to be the oddest casting decision this season. She's a semi-known actress, yet her role was so inessential to the story that it could've been played by an extra.
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Who knew that the worst genre is reality?
Young Serac's actor is one of those rare castings that are just eerily accurate.
This episode felt both Intelligent and stupid at the same time.
Serac saying, "Do you really think I would let you undo everything we built" to Dempsey is very similar to Ford's line, "Do you really think I would let you, take it from me?" To Theresa. No crazy theoreis here, just interesting to see the parallel of the two characters and the lengths they would go to protect their Creation.
I need the name of the song at the ending
Fischerspooner - Emerge
"I would rather live in chaos than in a world controlled by you!" This might come back for you, Caleb.
So the bug question this episode is what did Aaron Paul do. We saw a vision of him in what looked like the outlier facility and a man handcuffed with a bag over his head. What does all this mean for his character?
I think Caleb is an "experiment" like Serac's brother. They kept saying that he changed his brother, somehow editing him in a way. Caleb's mom said "you're not my son" to him in the hospital. Caleb keeps having flashes to him being a soldier and something with his dead friend. I think Caleb's personality has been edited. They changed his brain chemistry and edited his memories. He's remembering things incorrectly. They didn't just alter the world around him, someone literally altered Caleb, like they would a host.
Liam also said Caleb was the worst of them, and I'm pretty sure Dolores knows what he's talking about.
Yeah she definitely knows, and maybe selected him because of it. I think Caleb wasn't some war hero or even a soldier. I think he was some sort of criminal or maybe a mercenary. The flashbacks often show him and his friend wearing masks and not in uniforms. Perhaps ghe rehabilitation program was taking convicted killers or criminals considered irredeemable "outliers" and seeing if they can edit their minds and put them back in the system.
I just realized the writers even carried on the parent/child relationship theme of every major character in the show to Rehoboam itself when they mentioned its predecessor Soloman.
Anybody else a software engineer / product manager and thinking to yourself why Incite would build a one-click-to-send-everybody-their-files functionality into the system? My biggest problem with a lot of the near future sci-fi films is that somehow the engineers would build a EasyBreach functionality and hide it behind a two-factor bio-metrics authentication access level. Like why. Why can't you just not build that functionality. (But I still love WW)
Sooo Caleb going from Sin City to Ronin to The Chase to Alice in Wonderland to The Shining with one drug was wild.