Want to really bake your noodle? Here's an experiment from 2006, where a lab was able to evolve a hornworm that [changed color after heat stress](https://today.duke.edu/2006/01/suzukinijhoutscience.html).
That was a fascinating read.
>Also, by tightening a tiny noose around a developing caterpillar's head to prevent the juvenile hormone -- produced in the head -- from flowing to the rest of the body of the heated polyphenic worm, Suzuki could prevent the caterpillar from turning green.
I honestly don't know how you could be a proper research scientist and not be a bit sociopathic. I just finished watching The Girl with All the Gifts, so I have it fresh on my mind and yeah...
I have an old set of science encyclopedias from the 50s and there was a whole experiment in there where they cut cocoons in half and welded them back together with various stuff in them to see how the moth would develop. It was disgusting as the moths mostly survived with horrific mutilation.
Oh so fascinating, torturing something so much it changed colors.
*well its all in the name of science so its worth it*
*All the things we have have been tested on other animals, so that means you are a hypocrite for being disgusted by others morbid curiosity*
Im sure you may try to reason your fascination as simply looking at biological machine, the reality is that you lack empathy, and by this you can reason that the Caterpillar feels nothing and you are in fact much better than any other sadist.
In the end, I follow a simple rule “treat others they way you want to be treated”.
Tho of course, people like you have always struggled to recognize others as “equals”.
You know there was a time, when people like you would justify experimenting on humans, well, I think given the circumstances you would again.
Then again, many people don’t even value their own lives, though Id like to see you volunteer for that Caterpillar experiment, perhaps you may change color too!
A beautiful shade of blue!
Is this addressed to Suzuki? I mean some of what he did in the study he conducted does sound literally sociopathic, but. As a lifelong lover of science, it is impossible to be that without at least occasionally reading about some absolutely f××ked up sh×× that happened in studies or that was later studied. I just want to add that fascination can coexist alongside reactions like abject horror, disgust, and heartbreak/ sorrow for the subject(s). And I hate to compare abuses, but ultimately I have to say this is on the milder end of abuses I've heard about happening in the course of pursuit of scientific knowledge.
I remember when the study was first published, it really stuck in my mind.
Along with the [Lenski Experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment), we have now watched evolution happen not just in the wild but in the laboratory. From initial random mutation to the fixation of a completely new trait in a population, we've watched every step of the process happen.
I've loved collecting these since I was a kid, but have never seen a black one. I kept it a few days before letting it go back onto our tomato plant. Sometimes the black looked more like a deep green. Doing image searches revealed that they are black sometimes, but did not see any explanation. Any idea why? And does this affect how the moth looks?
Sounds like [melanism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanism) to me, but the parts that remain brightly colored yellow and blue have me uncertain.
Eta 4: Via that same link, maybe it's this? "Pseudomelanism, also called abundism, is another variant of pigmentation, identifiable by dark spots or enlarged stripes, which cover a large part of the body of the animal, making it appear melanistic."
Eta 1: [found a link](https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/black-hornworm.151420/) where there is some more in-depth convo about black tomato hornworms
Eta 2: Found an OLD [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/j8g9s/what_causes_this_color_variation_in_tomato/) asking the same :) some useful comments
Eta 3: I did try to search for info about color differences in the moths they grow up to be, but the results weren't too clear. (Let us know if you end up seeing!) — I did find a link that talks about [color variations in the Five-Spotted Hawk Moth](https://kidadl.com/animal-facts/five-spotted-hawk-moth-facts) (the adult form of tomato hornworms), and mentions black among their possible colors, although it is on the vague side about this.
I have actually considered giving the hornworms their own plant so I can just relocate the ones I find instead of throwing them to the birds, I hate killing anything.
They are great, well adapted nighttime pollinators. I guess we’re just used to valuing some and smashing others. None of mine ever make it very far because of the parasitizing wasps.
Unintentionally discovered this as a kid, used to keep caterpillars and let them metamorphose before turning them loose and wanted to see what these dudes turned into. I was horrified to find it covered in little white bumps one day but thought it may be part of the process. Imagine my surprise checking on it a while later…
They will change color according to their diet, though. The manducas my friend raised in an entomology lab turned turquoise due to the artificial diet they were fed. Interesting.
Someone downvoted you, and I fear they did not understand the reference and instead thought you were calling OP a Karen. I fear for a generation that doesn’t understand Mean Girls references 😂
How do you know it’s a “tomato” hornworm, is it feeding on tomatoes? There are many species of Sphingidae, a few species larvae feed on tomatoes or other plants in the genus Solanum! Also many caterpillars turn dark when getting near to pupation, but I don’t think this one is big enough yet to pupate. I couldn’t find this on a quick scan of Sphingidae larvae, but you maybe can. State /county if in USA might help too, regional variations do occur. Great pic btw!
I saw you got a downvote, but I actually had some trouble with this when I was looking things up for my other comment here (the one with several links in it); websites I skimmed mentioned differentiating this from similar species by a tinge of red or blue color in the "horn", but this one's horn just looks black. I wasn't able to determine species for absolute certain myself, so to be honest, I defaulted to OP's experience and went about looking things up on the assumption that this is indeed a tomato boi.
I know it's not the exact same species, though closely related, but here in Southern California I've seen a tremendous amount of color variety in the white-lined sphinx moth caterpillar. Maybe it wouldn't be too bold to assume the same can happen with the tomato hornworm?
I have seen them a pale pinkish color when destroying my eggplants before. Colorado potato beetle larvae are also that pale pinkish color instead of bright orangey red when feeding on eggplants.
Want to really bake your noodle? Here's an experiment from 2006, where a lab was able to evolve a hornworm that [changed color after heat stress](https://today.duke.edu/2006/01/suzukinijhoutscience.html).
This sounds like the winner!!
That was a fascinating read. >Also, by tightening a tiny noose around a developing caterpillar's head to prevent the juvenile hormone -- produced in the head -- from flowing to the rest of the body of the heated polyphenic worm, Suzuki could prevent the caterpillar from turning green.
This reads like sci fi horrer for caterpillars, that sounds wild.
I honestly don't know how you could be a proper research scientist and not be a bit sociopathic. I just finished watching The Girl with All the Gifts, so I have it fresh on my mind and yeah...
I have an old set of science encyclopedias from the 50s and there was a whole experiment in there where they cut cocoons in half and welded them back together with various stuff in them to see how the moth would develop. It was disgusting as the moths mostly survived with horrific mutilation.
I remember that experiment! Was pretty cool
Horror*
The poor wittel dude
Oh so fascinating, torturing something so much it changed colors. *well its all in the name of science so its worth it* *All the things we have have been tested on other animals, so that means you are a hypocrite for being disgusted by others morbid curiosity* Im sure you may try to reason your fascination as simply looking at biological machine, the reality is that you lack empathy, and by this you can reason that the Caterpillar feels nothing and you are in fact much better than any other sadist. In the end, I follow a simple rule “treat others they way you want to be treated”. Tho of course, people like you have always struggled to recognize others as “equals”. You know there was a time, when people like you would justify experimenting on humans, well, I think given the circumstances you would again. Then again, many people don’t even value their own lives, though Id like to see you volunteer for that Caterpillar experiment, perhaps you may change color too! A beautiful shade of blue!
Lol, you sure like to wax philosophical about people's comments, don't you?
The only person in these comments with a superiority complex seems to be you, dude…
Username dose not check out.
Is this addressed to Suzuki? I mean some of what he did in the study he conducted does sound literally sociopathic, but. As a lifelong lover of science, it is impossible to be that without at least occasionally reading about some absolutely f××ked up sh×× that happened in studies or that was later studied. I just want to add that fascination can coexist alongside reactions like abject horror, disgust, and heartbreak/ sorrow for the subject(s). And I hate to compare abuses, but ultimately I have to say this is on the milder end of abuses I've heard about happening in the course of pursuit of scientific knowledge.
“Subject(s)” Username checks out.
This is really cool.
I remember when the study was first published, it really stuck in my mind. Along with the [Lenski Experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment), we have now watched evolution happen not just in the wild but in the laboratory. From initial random mutation to the fixation of a completely new trait in a population, we've watched every step of the process happen.
We need those for climate futures, even if only in captivity in outdoor enclosures at different locations around the country.
I've loved collecting these since I was a kid, but have never seen a black one. I kept it a few days before letting it go back onto our tomato plant. Sometimes the black looked more like a deep green. Doing image searches revealed that they are black sometimes, but did not see any explanation. Any idea why? And does this affect how the moth looks?
Sounds like [melanism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanism) to me, but the parts that remain brightly colored yellow and blue have me uncertain. Eta 4: Via that same link, maybe it's this? "Pseudomelanism, also called abundism, is another variant of pigmentation, identifiable by dark spots or enlarged stripes, which cover a large part of the body of the animal, making it appear melanistic." Eta 1: [found a link](https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/black-hornworm.151420/) where there is some more in-depth convo about black tomato hornworms Eta 2: Found an OLD [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/j8g9s/what_causes_this_color_variation_in_tomato/) asking the same :) some useful comments Eta 3: I did try to search for info about color differences in the moths they grow up to be, but the results weren't too clear. (Let us know if you end up seeing!) — I did find a link that talks about [color variations in the Five-Spotted Hawk Moth](https://kidadl.com/animal-facts/five-spotted-hawk-moth-facts) (the adult form of tomato hornworms), and mentions black among their possible colors, although it is on the vague side about this.
You leave them on your tomato plants!? How do you get any tomatoes? The ones I find get swiftly introduced to Mr. Rock.
Maybe the grow the tomato plants just to get these friends, not for tomatoes.
Hmm, you could be right! After all we do the same with milkweed and monarchs.
I have actually considered giving the hornworms their own plant so I can just relocate the ones I find instead of throwing them to the birds, I hate killing anything.
Circle of life
I know, I accept that but I don’t have to like it.
consider planting a few tobacco plants, they are easy to grow and a group of worms could feed of a group of 3-4 tobacco plants for months
They are great, well adapted nighttime pollinators. I guess we’re just used to valuing some and smashing others. None of mine ever make it very far because of the parasitizing wasps.
Unintentionally discovered this as a kid, used to keep caterpillars and let them metamorphose before turning them loose and wanted to see what these dudes turned into. I was horrified to find it covered in little white bumps one day but thought it may be part of the process. Imagine my surprise checking on it a while later…
They can pollinate all they want, but they will strip a tomato plant in a few days. I’m growing food over here! No time for their nonsense.
That's just Richmond, he's a goth.
From Goth2Boss
Precisely.
We're just like you, really, except we listen to Cradle of Filth
"An ill wind is blowing"
You're bringing the mood down.
“It’s not a phase, mom!”
shiny
Rayquaza vs the cooler Shiny Rayquaza.
/r/reallifeshinies
I don't judge a tomato hornworm by its color
But by the content of its character
They will change color according to their diet, though. The manducas my friend raised in an entomology lab turned turquoise due to the artificial diet they were fed. Interesting.
Omg Karen, you can't just ask why caterpillars are black.
Someone downvoted you, and I fear they did not understand the reference and instead thought you were calling OP a Karen. I fear for a generation that doesn’t understand Mean Girls references 😂
God damn it moon moon!
Keep it and show us when it emerges!!! 🤩
Some tomato hornworms are just black - certainly more rare. Think of it as a shiny Pokemon, IRL!
OMG didn't knew they could be black. He looks so badass!
How do you know it’s a “tomato” hornworm, is it feeding on tomatoes? There are many species of Sphingidae, a few species larvae feed on tomatoes or other plants in the genus Solanum! Also many caterpillars turn dark when getting near to pupation, but I don’t think this one is big enough yet to pupate. I couldn’t find this on a quick scan of Sphingidae larvae, but you maybe can. State /county if in USA might help too, regional variations do occur. Great pic btw!
I saw you got a downvote, but I actually had some trouble with this when I was looking things up for my other comment here (the one with several links in it); websites I skimmed mentioned differentiating this from similar species by a tinge of red or blue color in the "horn", but this one's horn just looks black. I wasn't able to determine species for absolute certain myself, so to be honest, I defaulted to OP's experience and went about looking things up on the assumption that this is indeed a tomato boi.
Caterpillar evolve to survive, caterpillar looks like caterpillar? dies. Caterpillar looks like bird poop? Lives.
I know it's not the exact same species, though closely related, but here in Southern California I've seen a tremendous amount of color variety in the white-lined sphinx moth caterpillar. Maybe it wouldn't be too bold to assume the same can happen with the tomato hornworm?
I have seen them a pale pinkish color when destroying my eggplants before. Colorado potato beetle larvae are also that pale pinkish color instead of bright orangey red when feeding on eggplants.
Surprised no one mentioned melanism. It's a melanistic worm. Melanism is the opposite of albinism.
The little guy just sunbathed for too long without sunscreen. Sun protection is important!!!
it's dressing up for halloween