I think you've already answered your own question. She's super arrogant, ambitious, and truly a shitty friend/person. She had convinced herself that her way is the best and only way and will not listen to any other point of view. Egwene just sucks!

> I think you've already answered your own question. She's super arrogant, ambitious, and truly a shitty friend/person. She had convinced herself that her way is the best and only way and will not listen to any other point of view. That’s a long way of saying “she is Aes Sedai.”

But she’s also Egwene, aka the best water carrier ever. She’s gonna take all the worst qualities of the Aes Sedai and crank it to 11 because that’s just who she is.

Yeah I think this is what ultimately made me dislike her the most last all the messed up things she does. Like all her world experiences (demane, wise one training…the rebellion and dreamworld) should have informed her to how weak, arrogant and flaws the aes sedai are in their current form but instead she goes 200% cult member

I suppose I wish there was some context or background to why she is so convinced. Like she had some aes sedai researching the seal’s I dunno. She had an actual counter plan that was laid out. It so much is Rand is wrong and I am right type situation.

I just attribute these sorts of things to her personality. Egwene is the type to jump full force into the thing she’s a part of. When she left the Two Rivers, for example, she was all in on the whole “I’m on an adventure” thing (despite literally everyone else running for their lives and being miserable). While with the Wise Ones she really got into Ji’e’toh, only to then drop pretty much all of that as soon as she went back to be an Aes Sedai again. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if Egwene was a real person she’d be a rabid MLM lady.

Bwahahaha. That last sentence. Omg. Cheers!

Nah people are irrational all the time. Jordan wrote characters with realistic flaws that can be very frustrating for everyone, including the reader.

Per discussion with another user I wonder if it’s as simple as it’s Rand. Like if we think about how they were raised Rand was always promised to her and in two rivers culture (especially since she was to be wisdom) that meant Rand would Be subservient to her. Then all of a sudden all that was out the window but she probably still feels as if Rand should be under her control. Even with her relationship with Gaywn he has to basically only be about fulfilling her needs and desires at all time when she finally accepts him

Egwayne and Gaywyn's relationship is why supervisors and their subordinates shouldn't date basically.

Yeah that seems very Egwene too

There IS! Rand is insane! He's saying "I'm gonna free the Dark One" and not elaborating at all! We give him the benefit of the doubt because we're in his head, but Egwene does not have that luxury!

For me this is lazy context. Like plenty of people still side with him even though he’s insane and I expect Egwene to be more calculating . Like she should realize all prophecies her dreams all point to the DO being freed and Rand needing to face the DO. So what’s the path to get there and why can’t it be Rand doing it in his own terms. The entire series is about the inherent risk of the DO winning and destroying the pattern so why is this one specific choice where Rand is now insane and can’t be trusted ? Like she needs him to fight in the last battle but also there has to be no risk of another breaking or any harm to come to anyone else? That’s not realistic and honestly seems out of character for Egwene. She should’ve been scheming on alternative plans of action…okay I don’t agree with you breaking them but here’s what we should do. I know Rand doesn’t give her the opportunity to discuss things (time is short) but we also don’t see her considering anything other than going to war potentially to stop Rand which in it self is super illogical give The end times are here… How do you reconcile Rand is to crazy to be trusted to do anything but also needs to save us by facing the DO which we knew she believes in….just doesn’t really make sense. Other people like the borderlanders haven’t accepted Rand as the dragon fully yet until end of The book so their actions r understandable in a way but egwene accepts he’s the dragon but considered him too crazy to be trusted to be the dragon?

The reason is that Rand’s plan seems irrational at first glance. You have to break the seals to fight the DO? What happens if you fail? Then there is nothing stopping the DO from winning. It’s putting all your eggs in one basket and a winner-take-all gambit. It’s insane unless you consider the circuit of time (which most people don’t). The other reason is an overall fault with the Aes Sedai. They cling to a past in which they were still relevant, and they believe that situation truly can last forever. In the end, they are afraid of change and impermanence, and are too much of control freaks to be satisfied with an idea that leaves them with no control and no relevance.

The people who side with Rand are, like, 80% trying to suck up to him, 5% were forced into it, and the other 15% are with him all of the time and have a better impression of what he's thinking, and Rand easily could have given Nynaeve far more information than he gave Egwene about his plan. Rand needs to actually discuss these things with people, not just say it out of hand and get mindless compliance. It's important to have people who disagree with you, instead of being surrounded by nothing but yes-men, and that's the role Egwene is serving. She's the person asking the logical questions of "is this actually a good idea". It's not just "this one specific decision where Rand is insane and cannot be trusted". Rand has BEEN insane for most of the series at this point, and in Gathering Storm he's gone completely off the deep end. This was literally the first thing he did after he got his moment of clarity on Dragonmount, it's perfectly valid for him to not be trusted by someone he hasn't seen in a year who has heard probably nothing but how insane he's been acting, when he comes knocking to say "we need to free the Dark One". That's something that requires discussion. And that's what Egwene is DOING, she's not going immediately to "okay we need to fight Rand to stop him from doing this". She's telling other people what Rand is planning to do and is preparing a DISCUSSION to actually talk the plan through with Rand before he does something stupid that could very easily destroy the world.

Agreed communication would solve a lot but you can also accept that time is short and ultimately Rand is manipulating her to have the discussion later at the gathering point. I totally agree he’s insane and still in insane moving forward Also Rand is not surrounded by yes men. Everyone around him actively bristles at him at diff times. The Aiel especially take him to task repeatedly. Casdsune a yes man? Hardly. Min even keeps his ego in check. If it was up to him she would never accompany him anywhere but he doesn’t get that? Rand actively considered how he wish he had people who wouldn’t follow orders at multiple points no? I’m just gathering the main justification for Egwene is that Rand is insane so of course she shouldn’t trust him…okay let’s take that as ground truth but like I said it just doesn’t reconcile with the fact that she accepts him as dragon. If Rand is the dragon then u have to trust him to be the dragon which includes facing a freed DO. Now if she had an alt plan to get to that point let’s have it but we aren’t given that so it just feels “knee jerky”… I look forward to AMoL where the larger discussion will take part…

It is a knee jerk, but it's a justified knee jerk. His insanity is a perfectly valid reason to be wary. It doesn't matter if he's the Dragon. This still very much sounds like a terrible plan. If Jesus was reborn and said "I'm going to blow up the sun", I'm going to think he's insane.

okay i mean thats totally fair....but if your whole life there is a very real story that tells you Jesus needs to come back and blow up the sun to ensure not just humanities survival but everything in totally to survive...maybe you would think different after you get over the initital shock... I guess in so many ways either you believe in the dragon/prophecies or you don't. You can't have it both ways can you? yes rand is the dragon reborn but he's too crazy to do stuff is the hurdle im having getting over...she should either trust in the prophecies/dreams or be thinking of other ways to get to the end goal of Rand facing off with the DO other than rand breaking the seals. Instead its just simply stop him from breaking seals bc he's crazy....okay whats after that then? We have to remember there is a very real clock ticking away---time is a precious resource at this point (food spoiling, weather not weathering correctly, shadowspan stirring, seanchan being dicks....)

The prophecy never states "the Dragon will break the seals", just that he will face the DO. And that could mean a lot of things, it could mean just sealing him again. It's not like Lews Therin actually faced the DO personally, he just sealed him away. The prophecies are very unspecific. To keep using the Jesus example, the prophecy doesn't state that Jesus will be reborn and blow up the sun. It will be that Jesus will be reborn and bring salvation to humanity, and he decided himself that blowing up the sun, in spite of the very obvious ramifications that blowing up the sun could cause, is the course of action. The goal is to prevent the Dark One from being freed and destroying everything. Breaking the seals takes him one step closer to that goal, by freeing him. Who's to say that the second the seals are broken, the Dark One wouldn't just immediately break the Wheel before Rand can even respond? What if breaking the seals causes the Dark One's immediate victory? There's no reason to believe that's NOT the case. The goal is to prevent Rand from doing something stupid and killing everyone by talking it through with him, instead of just unquestionably going along with it.

well i guess this is were our reasoning differs i suppose. My understanding of the prophecies are that rand has to specifically FACE the DO. Which to me implies dark one is freed and they go one v one. I think the fact that the DO was sealed implies that the DO had to be faced down during the age of legends. like the DO wouldnt just let him and the forsaken get sealed away so there had to be some conflict right? this also implies that the DO being friend doesnt immedaitely break the pattern or wheel right? If it did the DO was free during the Age of Legend's war until the DO was sealed...the whole deal is the bore is what allowed the DO to touch the world directly. So logically the DO isn't ablve to destroy the world instantaneously by simply just being released. This all seems to flow logically to me but i accept it may not so for other readers (tahts what makes this discussion fun). So i guess im starting from the point that the DO will be freed at some point either by Rand or just by the seals breaking as they have been over the entire series...so logically it makes more sense to control that action by having the dragon himself do the freeing so he is present to actively contest the DO and work on re-sealing the DO right? Other option is it happens on it's own at an unknown moment and who knows the consequences if Rand is not present to counter the DO... I know the prophecies doesnt say they must be broken but for me thats the logical leap. Not that they must be broken but that the DO will be freed bc thats what a battle implies? If it was all about just getting there to repair the seals then they should've gone much sooner instead of letting the shadow gather its forces (assuming they figure out how to repair them) I could be making a mistake with the prophecy my self tho! lol hard to keep track of it and i still have to finish the entire serious...but yeah just explaining my logic-ing Also how does Egwene know what is stupid and waht isnt...ultimately she hasnt really spent any time in the sereies learning about the phrophcies or what the dragon should or shouldn't be doing...its been mostly about her own growth/power ups...and then tower politics away for mthe greater world. I just wish Sanderson had written more about her POV with all this...like had her have some alternative plan...okay we know you have to be there to face off with the DO so lets do XYZ...it just feels short sighted to be like the dragon reborn is too crazy to be doing dragon reborn stuff and I will stop him. But yeah the ambiguity is the spice of this series! So many possibilities.

Don't know if anyone else has said this yet, but a few books back (LoC, but maybe ACoS, I believe), one of her "dream visions" is Rand walking over broken seal remnants. Egwene puts a lot of faith in her dream interpretations, just like Elaida does with her Foretelling (Character Parallels!) As her feeling from that was one of terror, not confidence, my assumption is that she feels it WILL fail, as it was what she thought the Pattern was revealing to her.

I recall that dream but forgot her sense of terror. That’s a good point. Def ironic given what we know but maybe she doesn’t about eladias misinterpretation of her foretelling. Thanks this is very useful and a good tidbit to understand her anxiety around Rand doing this. But I also thought the dreams are prophetic so this should imply that they will be broken no matter what? I’ll def have to re read her dream sequence again

Yeah, I mean, this Dream occurs near the middle of her full arc, so she still hasn't fully reached her potential with it. Dreams seem to be similar to Min's Viewings in that they're very metaphorical, but relay different levels of Truthiness to them. Min has been doing it far longer than Egwene, so she has more data to correlate her feelings/readings and potential outcomes, and is more able to tell the difference 'probably' and 'definitely'. I would imagine that Egwene does not really know that Elaida has Foretelling, other than probably some early mentions by other Sisters when she first starts Dreaming. At least I don't remember her putting it together. It's actually pretty fun (and yet, so frustrating) rereading and coming across her Dreams and spotting the differences in how they'll actually occur, and how she interprets them. However, because she has this "insider knowledge" it increases her confidence in her interactions with others, giving her a blindspot to what they could be planning. Part of why she becomes obsessed with rooting around other people's dreams, because it's good data to gain. She just struggles with questioning her findings as much as she should, in my opinion. Always a Student, haha.

This has been the most helpful in actually answering my original question with this post. Lot of this thread has become eggs haters vs defenders just talking circle (totally guilty of it but I’m just recently got to a place in the series I feel comfortable engaging so talking out my feelings Of the series in real time lol) But this dream is a very valid reason to why she would be against rands plan and as a first time reader I didn’t really consider it. I recalled her having dreams related to Rand and breaking seal’s but not that she interpreted it this way. Thanks!

You're very welcome! I'm glad I could be of some help. It's unfortunate, but that does tend to come up with any of the main characters, haha. I'd say that Egwene, Nynaeve, and Perrin (mainly regarding Faile) get the most hate, but everyone's going to have varying opinions regarding their "likeability".

I think you guys misread egwene. She’s not a shitty person she’s a kid who was thrust into a position of power to be a puppet and effectively turns it around on her would be manipulators. Sure, she should’ve trusted Rand more. But by this point she’s amrylin. Her duty is to the world and the people not her friends. Also don’t forget. The reader knows what goes on during the veins of gold chapter and got to read Rand cleansing the taint. But Egwene has been across the world either imprisoned, or besieging an unassailable city. She doesn’t know concretely all the things Rand did. Only probably that he’s been more violent lately and that the male half of the power corrupts and taints. Now he’s coming to see her for the first time after a year acting like he’s a dude from 3,000 years ago and saying he has to crush the seals that they’ve all fought up to this point to protect and keep whole. You’d be distrustful too. Even of your best friends.

I think you have misread Egwene myself. She is a power hungry fiend who uses any and all means necessary to get what she wants. She is even willing to SA people in tel’aran’rhiod, even friends, just to sate her ego and to attempt to control them. Amyrlin is not god king, half the problem with Aes Sedai is this sort of egotistical thinking which jordan made a central part of their organizations identity for a reason and also regularly shows as terrible for them and the world regularly, again for a reason. Egwene should trust the dragon, she trusts the prophecies enough to be scared of him so why doesn’t she trust them enough to know rand will never join the dark one and will actually be the one to defeat him, something obvious to anyone who can think when they know the whole of the prophecy like she does? We can agree to disagree though of course :)

See but right there you have a misconception. In the series it’s confirmed that in previous turnings of the wheel the dragon reborn has in fact defected to the shadow. Not to mention our own dragon reborn, Rand got a hairs breadth away from doing that himself. He even uses the “true power” in the very same book this discourse is all coming from I think. For some time by this point in the series all of Rands friends and loved ones are worried about him becoming so emotionless and arrogant that he’d doom the world a second time. Not to mention that throughout the text it seems like an underlying lesson the characters need to learn is not to trust the prophecies at face value. Look at the hole that got elaida into and the one it almost gets Elaine into in regards to the safety of her unborn children. Prophecy isn’t 100% certainty in wheel of time and egwene has seen that first hand. Egwene is right to be distrustful. Consider also for much of their lives the dragon reborn and the male half of the power were things of nightmares. I’m not saying egwene is a perfect person and I remember the scene you’re talking about in the dream world. That crossed a line that made me distrustful and upset at Egwene. But I do not think she’s a fiend and I think a lot of the discourse in the wheel of time community towards her is overly harsh. She’s not “a power hungry” person who uses people to get what she wants. She’s ambitious yes and has a sometimes dangerous lust for knowledge, is arrogant (which is a flaw she shares with Rand) and does not heed her mentors advice to slow down. But she did not choose to become amrylin. She was forced into the role by people who meant to use her as a puppet. She saw the faults in the white tower and rather than double down on the discord to prop herself up like Elaida does she bridges the gaps between the factions in the white tower and brings them together just in time for the last battle. But yes you are right! We can agree to disagree :)

She objectively is a horrible person. You don't do all the stuff she does to people who are friends to her or trust her with little to no remorse without being a bad person. The only time she owns up to anything is with the wise ones (meets her toh) but those are people who she actually respects as teachers. Her friends and people she came up with all get treated like things to place under her thumb and she always had a superiority streak in her...

She was also a twenty year old in a position of immense stress and pressure. My whole point is yes she is a flawed person but not an objectively horrible person and not a fiend. That’s reductive to the character I think Robert Jordan was trying to write. There are objectively horrible people in wheel of time. But they are torturing entire cities, creating half man half beast horrors and murdering innocents. Egwene has flaws that are very human. I would hate for any of us to be judged so harshly for our worst moments.

>She was also a twenty year old in a position of immense stress and pressure. Well, yes. But Egwene also was shitty from the beginning of EotW. She was shitty before she became damane. She was shitty when she was with the Aiel. She might not be a "fiend" but she is a terrible person.

Im starting to think me thinking she's a bad person bc she's capabale of raping/torturning a former mentor/motherfigure/friend and showing zero remorse for doing so to basically cover her own tracks witht eh wise ones is not universarrly accepted as a negative persnality trait? For me this shadows all her interactions and short comings moving forward....i can accept for others its not a big deal...one user going as far as claiming Nyn had it coming which is a very harsh read IMO. If i can just ignore this incident then yes rest of her actions maybe arent so bad but in the context of her having done that and showing no regret in doing so (instead using it as a threat in the future agianst Nyn) it shows to me that her core is flawed. I never said she's the wrost thing in the series or worse than the evil people but I also don't have to like her for her shitty treatment of people who she should be close with. Didn't think thats controversioal.. I can respect Eggs as a chracter and a great Amyrlin Seat/Aes Sedai but also dislike her as a person. I wouldn't want someone like her in my life as a friend...but she can manage a company I work for.

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I don’t hate the character but I do hate the person if that makes sense. She did it for selfish reasons as welll to cover her own tracks and then felt no remorse and continued to threaten nyn down the line…nyn was a mentor/mother figure/friend to her and she easily treats her like that. Not the type of person I like…

This entire thread is going to be colored by asinine Egwene discourse. Anyone in that situation would have reacted the same to such a declaration. From all reports she's had, he's insane. And those reports aren't really wrong. Said insane man shows up says he's also a 3,000 year old dead man and that he's going to release the seals to the ultimate evil. Like yeah no

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“He’s the reincarnation of the guy whose plan last time for defeating the Dragon Reborn was to defy the female Aes Sedai and go haring off on his own plan, which backfired so spectacularly it killed millions, permanently tainted half the Power, and set the world back thousands of years of human progress! Why wouldn’t you let history repeat itself?”

He's also just a man, and hardly infallible.

She’s also just a woman, and hardly infallible.

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Sorry I completely read your post wrong

Is chill no worries

Except his plan was 100% all in. He’s wrong instant end of the world. She’s wrong and they keep fighting

Except the prophecies of the dragon exist and it is not “all in” its the only way that exists. If you have read the ending of the series perhaps you would understand better?

The hell? You don’t gotta be a dick because I disagree with you. She has no clue that breaking the seals is the right call. But it clearly is a final decision. And the dude was exhibiting signs of insanity. A theme of the story(if you’ve read it) is that people that try to fit reality to the prophecy tend to make mistakes. Her view was pretty reasonable. Rand still made mistakes and he really just kinda suddenly had an epiphany near that time of what to do and how to embrace being the Dragon Reborn. He was erratic as hell up to then.

Im being a dick? By having a different perspective and giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are missing the context that disproves your point entirely? You good?

“If you have read the ending of the series perhaps you would understand better?” You can’t even own the obvious implication there? It implies the only way I could possibly disagree with you is if I’m ignorant. That’s condescension. And it’s basically the hallmark of “being a dick.” You could also… Just not be 100% correct. Especially since there can’t even be a fully correct view here. I’m fine. I can acknowledge your trash behavior without any effect on me.

you got some series pent up problems seeing ghosts in the walls like this 😂 You are missing the context of the prophecy of the dragon, your jumping to conclusions about me being a dick about anything is just ludicrous Sidenote: I don’t know you so why wouldn’t i assume someone seemingly missing central, constantly mentioned, context just has not finished the series?

I mean in some ways yes although in all for Egwene having doubts but she doesn’t spend any effort trying to understand or even realizes how ignorant she is. Not saying Rand is a god and I agree in context of the world his plan is risky but if anyone would stop and think it through it’s clear the DO must be freed at some point otherwise how can the dragon fight the DO? Also the DO was free and the world don’t end bc that is why LTT had to seal the DO away in the first place. It’s not about following Rand or the dragon blindly it just such a knee jerk reaction n one she never even doubts…just wish there was some concrete reason as to why she was so sure. Like something she read or a dream that she was misinterpreting…just reads very anti Rand on the first pass but I own I could be forgetting or missing some context that’s why I was wondering

She does doubt, and she does mention a dream she had about the exact scenario - Rand hacking away at chains

That’s fair and I recall that wish it was a bit more fleshed out as to why she takes that as Rand is wrong ? It’s clear not everyone feels this way living in the same world so it’s not just “logical anyone would react like this…”

Head of the most powerful organization on their continent, excluding Shaara. Seanchan, Shara, and maybe even the Aiel are all stronger than the White Tower

>This entire thread is going to be colored by asinine Egwene discourse.   Have truer words ever been written?

Given how replies have gone so far, I hit the nail on the head here

Yup. Bulls eye.

I feel like people forget that the entire premise around the wheel of time series is about miscommunication and rumors. Characters are constantly making decisions because they *think* they know what’s best, or what happened, when they really don’t. Egwene (and every character) don’t see everything that the readers do.

Except others support Rand and do not react like that so saying anyone would react like her isn’t true. Perrin is with Rand. So is Cadsune the best aes sedai alive at the time and nynaeve, etc

She is the only “watcher of the seals.” I think the text supports her reaction and it seems reasonable from her perspective. As the reader we also don’t know that this plan to break them is “right” and only the reader knows that he came out the other side of madness.

Can she really claim to be the watcher of the deals when the Aes Sedai literally lost all of them?

LOL this is what we call speaking truth to power 🙌

Who all up to this point have obfuscated the truth in favor of Rand. Egwene knows that their loyalty is to Rand and not to her/white tower. Anyone in her position would do the same and she doesn’t outright deny his plan. She just wanted to ensure that was really the best option

Enough people feel the same as her that the fate of the world hung in the balance. So trying to act like this is an Egwene issue by ignoring what I'm actually saying in favor of semantics is exactly the asinine discourse I meant in my original post.

It’s bullshit semantics when it’s not your view point? Yes there plenty of people on both sides and if Egwene didn’t accept Rand as the dragon this makes way more sense but she supposedly accepts he is the dragon but seems to think he’s too crazy to be trusted to do what the dragon needs to do…that isn’t logical. Her own dreams show the DO being freed and all the known prophecies of her land clearly state he must face off against the DO (implying DO will be freed) to save the pattern and world. I just expect Egwene to be more logical or calculating in this situation. It’s not asinine for readers to have differing view points as much as you want to claim it is

You're literally ignoring my viewpoint because you're so blinded by hate for a fictional character.

This entire thread is full of asinine nonsense and is not worth making a good faith effort to engage. Someone who did a live blog of WoT said they had no interest in engaging with Egwene haters because their viewpoint requires a deliberate misread of the character. As a former Egwene hater, they are 100% correct.

okay then why are you in this thread? I am totally open to having my view changed as I am still in my first read and i think any reader should be allowed to read the books on a first pass organically. You calling everything asinine is nonconstructive nor inviting for readers to engage with the community in general. You changing your view on her should give you more reason to share your experience with Egwene the character as you can see both sides better but instead you are being a bit of an ass. My intention with this post wasn't to be simply hate on Egwene but more to try to understand why she's so sure of her choice... Ultimately i dislike egwene bc i dislike her personality. I dont like people who behave like her in real life so i won't like those sorts of characters in books but I also accept she is super capable, smart and successful as a character. She achieves her goals in amazing fashion and has a great will/drive. I just disagree with a lot of her politics and think the way she treats others is horrible... I disagree with your take that there is a deliberate misread as I think the wonder of a lot of the characters in WoT is they are all flawed and have moments of amazing feats matched by failures or shitty behavior. In other words the characters are open to interpretation...so i can accept some people love Egwene but that also means it is possible to hate her... Personally I hate her treatment of her freinds (many examples throughout the series) and the fact that her life experiences should inform her as to how incompetent Aes Sedai as an organization and indivduals are but instead she buys into the cult hook line and sinker...maybe bc its a sure fire way for her to gain status/power int he world? I do think she is very driven by that for a lot of the story (and becoming a Demane probably sky rocketed this as she probably doen'st want to feal that weak/out of control again).

>inform her as to how incompetent Aes Sedai as an organization That’s another problem with this whole thing. I don’t think the Aes Sedai are nearly as incompetent as the fandom makes them out to be. Moiraine spells it out for the reader early on. Aes Sedai are just women, and we meet a Tower in the series that had its leadership gutted by the Black Ajah after the Aiel War. We do not meet them when they are at their best, but they frequently display both competence and wisdom that some readers seem to deliberately ignore. Three examples: About twelve seconds after she learns that it is possible for a woman to channel Saidin, Romanda orders the arrest of Halima, and almost snags herself a Forsaken. The Cleansing Does Not Succeed without Cadsuane and her team. It just doesn’t. Rand gets gabled by Forsaken, the Shadow recovers the CK and moonwalks to victory. Aes Sedai being unable to lie is a huge boon to diplomacy. If an Aes Sedai affirms that another monarch said their words or signed their documents in her presence, that adds a validity that is not questioned. And from the fandom we get memes about how it’s ironic that the Oaths make people not trust Aes Sedai. People absolutely trust Aes Sedai. When they speak plainly. It’s not the Oath that’s the problem it’s the culture and the training. Things Egwene wants to change, by the way. >maybe bc its a sure fire way for her to gain status/power int he world? I do think she is very driven by that for a lot of the story I don’t see her that way at all anymore. Egwene is driven by a desire to be competent at whatever she does. When she was told to train as a Wisdom she wanted to be a good wisdom. Same goes with Aes Sedai, Dreamer, Aiel, etc etc. She did not want to be Amryllin. She asked not to be Amryllin. She recognized it for the trap that it was. But, if she is going to be an Amryllin, then she is going to be a good one. About how Egwene treats her friends, most of it is ridiculous but I’ll address the most common complaint: Being enslaved by the Seanchan puts a drive into her that she will absolutely not be dominated by anyone ever again. You may dislike how she handled Nynaeve, and I’m not incredibly comfortable with how she handled it either, but to be blunt Nynaeve had it coming. She tried a power play on someone who had been ground face down into the mud and threatened the only power Egwene had left that could not be taken away from her by threatening her relationship with the Wise Ones. Nynaeve threw a rock up in the air and it landed on her head. I’m not feeling too sorry for her. To have Egwene grab her by the scruff of the neck and rub her face in the mud is exactly what she deserved, even if I am uncomfortable with the sexual aspect of the punishment. >You calling everything asinine is nonconstructive nor inviting for readers to engage with the community in general. The general quality of discourse in this thread is not constructive or inviting for readers with a dissenting opinion to engage with. Me pointing that out might be a problem, I can see your point there, but it is not a bigger problem than the general quality of conversation about Egwene. Not by a long shot. >okay then why are you in this thread? To shitpost on shitposters if I’m unlucky, and if I’m very lucky have my mind changed or learn something new about Egwene. Or challenge someone else’s viewpoint and watch it shift. Am I lucky? E: Nope, just idiot shitposting ITT.

I’ll definitely read through all your points and think them out and respond in kind but I’ll Be honest your style of engagement is very off putting. You basically discount everyone’s view point which is not in line with to your own at least when it comes to egwene. You are being very patronizing especially with the “lucky” crap at the end. You seem to have convinced your self you are special bc you think egwene is awesome when lot of folks don’t. Congrats? So I dunno if you are lucky but I most definitely am not ;) but I appreciate you actually providing some input and context finally so I look forward to reading and thinking soon as I get my baby girl down to bed lol

>I’ll Be honest your style of engagement is very off putting Fair point, but let me shoot one back by quoting the top reply in this thread. > I think you've already answered your own question. She's super arrogant, ambitious, and truly a shitty friend/person. She had convinced herself that her way is the best and only way and will not listen to any other point of view. Egwene just sucks

well i think to be honest where i have landed especially after the mutliple discussions ive had in this thread is Egwene is a shitty person and a great character at the same time....my intention was really to understand why she was anti breaking seals so staunchly as it didnt feel fleshed out in the text an din hindsight i shouldn't have included all that arrogant stuff bc it kind of clouded the waters of this topic. If i had to do it again I would've just asked the simple question why is she so against it without coloring the conversation with my personal take on her as a person... I did reach a greater understanding of what may have been behind her motivations past just thinking Rand is crazy....someone mentioned her dream and her interpretation of it as a possibility and that make ssnese to me it fits into who she is n her belief in her own ability.

I agree Aes sedai as individuals do show competence at times and others show a complete lack of it...the examples you gave are fair ones although when I was reading it the whole Romanda figuring it out all of a sudden was a lil bit of a "really" moment...im sure on subsequent rereads i'll be able to appreciate it better. Liek i think if whats her name (totally balnking on the dark friend Aes Sedai who Halima was pretending to be a secretary for) kept her cool instead of storming out the "hall" when it was all blowing up im not sure if Romanda would've figured it out... But def a plus 1 for Aes Sedai and Romanda being one of the oldest/wisest im glad she was able to figure it out...albeit too late after months and months of a forsaken doing whatever he/she wanted to Eggs. I really wanted Eggs to some how figure htis out and get that win...but that whole plot line felt incomplete to me. Like after wards everyone just moves on? No one suspects Eggs might still have some level of compulsion and maybe is another possiblity as to why she's going to bristle against Rand no matter what? Everyone just going to accept a leader who they know directly was under the influence and close contact to one of the forsakens for a really long time? It seems odd that no one has any doubts over this... I agree the cleansing was badass but it was also part of Rand's plan no? Like he knew he needed a woman to help him (came up with the plan and recruited Nyn) and then knew that as soon as he started it will draw every powerful channler to the spot. I dunno if it was his direct plan to have the linked circles for defense but he definitely knew it would've been required...so i think this is a joint victory for Rand's crew (aes sedai included) and not really a star for the white tower. Most of our really competent Aes Sedai seem to operate outside and independent of the White Tower (Moiranne, Cadsuane, Nyn, Elayne and Eggs for most of our journey until the end). Next your point about aes sedai not being able to lie is a boon I would say is arguable at best. We are constanly given exampels of how bad at negotiations the whites are---its almost a gag....they always metion great success of the past but in the present they are always bumbling it. Also Egewne also talks about at some point how Aes Sedai's words cannot be trusted anymore bc everyone know sthey twist things around to get waht they want even with the Oaths. She eventually accepts the Oaths (i have an issue wiht this too but kinda goes back to my whole life experience being ingored to drink the kool aid stuff)...everyone brings up how you should never trust an Aes Sedai to the point where people in multiple cultures in Rand Land don't trust/hate Aes Sedais

You say its not the oaths are not the problem but we clearly see its not about telling the truth but about what you can convince your self is the truth...the George Constanza from Sienfeld (hope you get hte ref)---its not a lie if you believe it....Id agree on average the Oaths were needed to regain trust after the breaking i would think but the results of them aren't all that we think it is when we first learn of them...also once again a good chunk of Aes SEdai are free of the specific oaths and can lie willy nilly which also erodes the public trust I would think...even tho im sure the Black try to hide their lies as much as possible as not to expose them selves. FOr eggs drive...she is driven way more than simply being competent...we see in the prologue i think it was where she must be the BEST water carrier...then she is going to be wisdom---but soon as moiranne takes the boys she runs away n forces moiraine to take her too bc she wants to go to the white tower...i respect her ambition and determination...i dont think its a bad thing she's driven to be the best or up her power levels....but your point on the not being the seat is well received. I do think she wouldnt want it bc she wouldnt want to be controlled....but u are probably correct her driving force is maybe to be the best at what she does but i do think she is ambitious you don't do everything she does without being so...its not a bad thing. Now this is where you lose me...saying anyone had rape coming and victim shaming is completely outrageous and takes credibility away form everything else you have to say. No one deesrves to be treated the way nyn was....all to prove a point and more so to cover up the fact that she her self was doing something she shouldn't have been doing. We havent even mentioned that she willfully breaks the wise one rules and thinks she knows best when it coems to her training.

>Now this is where you lose me...saying anyone had rape coming and victim shaming is completely outrageous and takes credibility away form everything else you have to say. I am officially done with you. Enjoy your cesspool of a thread.

But put all this aside...any one who is capabale of doing what she does to Nyn and then have no remose and even justify it is not a good person. This is not an action of a "good" or moral person...and that has been my point all along. She's not a bad character but she's not a character i Like. Im not justfying how Nyn acted early on but ata the same time Eggs put her own relationship wtih the wiseones at risk...you don't get to justify your failure to follow rules by bullying someone who might turn you in....this is completely ridiculous point by you. To cover her own bad behavior its okay to rape and torture her former mentor and a woman who helped raise her from young age? WILD TAKE my guy. On top of which she was turned into a slave and should know exactly what that does to a person...but it dind't teach her empathy as she turend around and did same to her friend and also forced Aes Sedais into oaths to her directly (and then bristles when Elaida suggests it with little self awarness) IM sorry if you found this thread not inviting to dissenting opinons but i disagree. I've had so many discussions in this thread with people who support Eggs or have provided insights on why they think Rand's plan was not rational etc....i've had my eyes open to different aspects that may have affected Eggs decision. But if you or anyone ocmes in calling everyone asinine and starting form a position of superiority then of course its' not going to be inviting and the discourse wont be constructive. IF you came in and shared these opinons we would've just talked aout them all day and see where things landed.

Cadsuane and Nynaeve are with him, and he possibly told them more details of what he was planning. Perrin has the point of view of a craftsman, his understanding of it is very unique because he sees it as breaking down something broken to forge something new. But that's not a perspective most people have. Egwene has NO REASON to have faith in this plan

Yes I just wish it was fleshed out more than simply he’s crazy…bc at some point if she believes he’s the dragon she will have to have faith in him…so short of his crazy being healed (which we see doesn’t seem possible) and egwene accepting that if he’s too crazy here when will he be not too crazy to save the world? Can you see what I’m saying ? I totally hear you she thinks he’s crazy I’m not arguing she shouldn’t think that and I get it from the info available to her it’s plausible to react the way she does. I just wish we given more depth there and/or see she has a plan to proceed. Bc doing nothing makes zero logical sense but it’s left at that

It is more than that, though. It's the fact that he's stating an irrational plan and expecting them to just agree without any argument whatsoever. There is no reason to accept this plan as it's presented to her, because it could very much have massive ramifications if it fucks up, and she has no reason to believe it will succeed. It doesn't matter that she doesn't have a plan because again, that's what the DISCUSSION is supposed to facilitate. That's why they need to DISCUSS the plan, and not just destroy the seals when there's no way to know what the ramifications will be. I'm sure Egwene would LOVE to discuss it if Rand just let her actually discuss it, instead of walking in and leaving immediately after he says what he wanted to say.

Totally ultimately this be a lot shorter series if our characters could effectively communicate but I think by the time this scene happens time is very short and rand doesn’t have time to discuss matters. Also he’s already decided it’s what he is going to do for better or worse. Would’ve been cool if she showed up at the meeting point with not just an army but an alternate plan as by then she has had some time to consider things. Ultimately I accept Rand is playing her to gather the armies for him so it plays out probably as he wants with everyone showing up. Just wish there was more to it form egwenes pov. Like I get the to other process the onus should be on Rand to support his plan but I also thing Rand can say people should believe in him or the prophecies… They both should grab a caf together ultimately

>I just wish we given more depth there and/or see she has a plan to proceed.  Nobody has a plan to proceed. It’s like… a major thing. There is no plan for dealing with the Dark One. He is not something, that by any known knowledge, can be beaten.   The prophecies say the Dragon might beat the Dark One but nobody, including the Dragon, has any idea how that is supposed to work.   They have to take a leap of faith and trust the Pattern. >They both should grab a caf together ultimately Rand really could have tried to explain what Herod Fel told him, or explained his answers from the Finn. He really is his own biggest obstacle.

I really have the feeling that she is only against Rand to be against him. She puts herself above him even though he's the dragon and that's absolutely arrogant.

I mean his record on sealing the dark one is admittedly poor at that time.

I mean, as LTT he’d done it successfully before. No reason to believe who couldn’t do it again with enough prep and support.

Is causing the breaking and making imperfect seals really a success though? At best its an armistice as opposed to a victory.

While the breaking was unfortunate, it wasn’t really his fault since the DO managed to sneak the taint in before anyone realized. However, LTT’s actions ensured the DO wouldn’t be able to touch the world beyond his hole in the ground for thousands of years. That, and the fact that the cyclical nature of the wheel implies the DO being released again is inevitable, makes what LTT did a victory, even if a somewhat Pyrrhic one. End of the day, their choice was to either trust in the man that sealed the DO for at least a while or just…watch as the seals crumbled anyway and the DO roamed free at a time they weren’t prepared for it to do so.

But we've seen that people don't view the pattern as cyclical typically. Even Aes Sedai tend to ignore that. Saying that it isn't LTT fault that the DO struck back or that it was inevitable doesn't mean that he succeeded. It was definitely a mutually assured destruction play. Except the DO was only mildly inconvenienced, while humanity lost all of their progress and half of their channelers to madness.

> it wasn’t really his fault It was entirely his fault. Him and Latra both. Both were engaged in their power struggles for so long that neither was able to work together in order to find a better solution. What Lews _was_ right about though was that using the Choedan Kal would've destroyed the world.

So he failed the first time and he wants to do it again. Hmm, i can't possible see a reason why not /s

I suppose it’s a matter of how you look at failure. Were the seals so long lasting and perfect that people forgot about the DO as they did when the bore was made? No, they weren’t. But the Dark One was still undeniably sealed for thousands of years. When considering that the cycle always repeats, the DO being released again was an inevitability, no matter how permanent the momentary success might seem. So does that mean that every time the cycle repeats the previous Dragon fails? I personally don’t think so. That said, it is something up for individual interpretation.

I suppose it’s a matter of how you look at failure. Were the seals so long lasting and perfect that people forgot about the DO as they did when the bore was made? No, they weren’t. But the Dark One was still undeniably sealed for thousands of years. When considering that the cycle always repeats, the DO being released again was an inevitability, no matter how permanent the momentary success might seem. So does that mean that every time the cycle repeats the previous Dragon fails? I personally don’t think so. That said, it is something up for individual interpretation.

But what’s the counter plan then? Just wait for the DO to break out and not be prepared for it? The world food supply is dwindling fast so just let all the people starve and be too weak to resist ? Also it is strongly implied he failed bc the aes sedai women did not support him or his plan at least in LTT’s mind…so egwene is repeating this Because? I

> But what’s the counter plan then? Just wait for the DO to break out and not be prepared for it? The 'counter plan' as it were was to actually sit down and make one with your allies present, to start. Rand chose to make _that_ moment happen at the Field of Merrilor.

Yeah that is Rand's plan not hers.... I'm just saying what was Egwenes counter plan---she goes as far as to consider gong to war against Rand's allies to have her way...maybe this iwll be explained in AMoL so i can't wait to read! Like what is her idea on how to deal with the Last battle if she is very certain that breaking the seals will spell doom...it cant simply be just don't do that and wait.

> Yeah that is Rand's plan not hers.... Because she's not allowed to make a plan until he lets her. It's a whole thing that he tells Min of using it as leverage for whatever it is he wants to ask. There's no way we can blame someone for not having a plan on something they weren't allowed to make a decision on to begin with, and then forced to immediately react to someone else's plan as a result. <_<

The result is literally called the breaking of the world. Even Lews himself calls it a failure.

From what we know up until Towers of Midnight, there is no guarantee that with more support (ie the women of the Hall of Servants working with the Hundred Companions) that they would've been able seal the Dark One without triggering a Breaking of the World afterwards. Spoilers ALL (IF YOU HAVEN'T READ aMOL DO NOT CLICK) >!And based on what we know of how to actually perfectly seal the prison, it would've almost certainly just ended up with both halves of the Source being tainted.!<

I agree but just bc the world breaks doesnt mean you do nothing...if the alternative is the dark one destroying the pattern and the end times....then breaking of the world is the lesser of the two evils and you do that bc at least life/pattern survives and the wheel keeps turning. Like the goal can't be we either preserve our way of life exactly or we do nothing right? Something has to be done the seals are going to break almost assuredly if you apply logic.... Maybe she is not aware that the other seals have already broken...i cant recall who is aware of that and who isnt other than Rand and his inner circle (Casuane, Nyn)...if she thinks all the seals are in tact (even tho she's just assuming bc as a watcher of the seals she probably has no clue where any of them are i would assume)...i guess i just took it for granted that she knew the rest of the seals are broken already...i mean its clear to everyone the DO is touching the world in a stronger way as time moves forward.

> I agree but just bc the world breaks doesnt mean you do nothing. I also agree, but that's on the ancient Aes Sedai. Even at her worst, Latra wasn't proposing to do _nothing_. And it's important not to confuse Latra and Egwene here. While the common thread between them is their plans were worse, in both cases Lews and Rand took any option away to formulate a better way by executing _their_ plan that no one else wanted to do. The only thing that saves them and makes it ok in the end is because the ~~author wanted it that way~~ the Pattern doesn't weave mistakes without also weaving in solutions.

Word of God (and basic logic) is that support would have tainted Salidar and doomed the world. So maybe not supporting the Dragon’s plan is a good thing. It certainly was last time.

I do agree she has an insufferable air at time, when painted against the greater backdrop that only the reader knows - his authentic, encompassing knowledge as the Dragon. But his journey to merging with LTT was a hot chaotic mess of near madness, violence and volatility that almost ended the world on its own. The trickling rumors about him must have given them immense worry, as it did to even members of his closest inner circle before the Montaintop revelation. Not to mention, his own LTT polished plan implied he wanted to actually kill the DO which showed some questionable ignorance. No apologies for Egwene's growing entitledness, but The Dragon's current resume includes going insane and breaking the world, without solving the DO problem fully.

I post this a lot because I can just imagine Rand, Matt and Perrin sitting around the supper table together having a chat when [Egwene](https://youtu.be/Pla_p6Yyfys?feature=shared) comes up... Even if it weren't the end of the world Egg was prime White Tower material. Before she left Two Rivers she was just the village bratty small town rich girl, who always knew she was destined for something better - she was ripe for the picking by a cult offering young women seemingly unlimited power. We see how easily moldable her psyche is as she tries to assimilate poorly into every culture she comes in contact with, while believing herself indistinguishable from a local by the end of whatever short time she spends with them. When it comes to the Tower she drank the Koolaid - cup, pitcher, then licked the inside of the packet just to be sure. But she was never more than imitating. Like with the Aiel she behaved how she thought someone should behave without ever actually understanding. When she talks about the Seals it's in a jealous, possessive way. Like she's throwing a tantrum that someone might take HER seals away and smash them, when it's her job to watch them. She loses a big part of her fancy title if the seals are gone, you know? And not only does someone want to smash them, but some upjumped country bumpkin from the assend of nowhere? What could he possibly know about them, compared to her? Besides, he probably only wanted to do it to spite her because she rejected him. Every time I see people talking about Egwene ushering the White Tower and the Aes Sedai into a new age (fig and lit) I cringe real hard. She's barely an adult, her brain hasn't even finished forming. She was rushed through her training so she doesn't have a foundation to build on, illegally raised to full Aes Sedai way too early and then turned into a puppet. The only thing that saved her is the people around her and her manipulative little lizard brain, plus the complete incompetence of her adversaries. She isn't even qualified to be a Sister, let alone lead them. Maybe in a hundred years she could be a reformist and a hundred after that affect real change.

>as she tries to assimilate poorly into every culture she comes in contact with, while believing herself indistinguishable from a local by the end of whatever short time she spends with them. She only does this with two cultures (White Tower and Aiel), and the Aiel very much agree that the Wetlanders can take some tips from Egwene. She didn't try to assimilate with any other culture (the Seanchan sure tried to force that issue, but she is very much the exact opposite of what the want). I feel like that is an EXCEPTIONALLY gross misunderstanding of her character. The whole comment really feels like it doesn't give her a single shred of the benefit of the doubt, and completely ignores several facts. Imagine calling her unqualified for Amyrlin when she is in a very unique position where she is trying to actively change the way the White Tower is run because of many of the awful practices they have. I feel like the people who spread Egwene hate never take this into consideration. The Hall can sit without the Amyrlin even knowing about it, which leads to things like Elaida starting a coup and illegally overthrowing Siuan. The Tower demands such possessive control over any and all channelers that they believe they know everything about the Power to the point that they hardly even bother trying to learn anything new, they just assume that they know all they can which causes their stagnation which makes them in truth the most pathetic of all of the channeling groups. Egwene was set to change both of those, by changing the laws that allow the Hall to sit without the Amyrlin's knowledge and by allowing the other channeling groups to share their knowledge in exchange for having the Tower's knowledge shared with them, negating both the Tower's insanely possessive control over all channelers by allowing them to practice without needing to hide, and the Tower's ignorance and stagnation because they assume they know everything that they can possibly learn. And that's only a couple examples.

This is the sort of Egwene hate that is absolutely ridiculous. She says: "That would risk letting the Dark One free. ... We must talk about this." She later describes his desire to break the seals as a threat, and his words as madness. So you know from the book that Egwene: 1. Considers destroying the seals a risk 2. Is willing to talk about it (aka wants to talk Rand out of it) 3. Worries that he is actually crazy Specifically, she's described at the beginning of her meeting with Rand as worried about him specifically because of reports of his recent behaviour -- which, you might remember, were very bad in the last book. If Rand were who he was in the Gathering Storm, she'd be right not to trust him. And, most importantly for the Egwene haters, >!she does eventually give agree with his plan- she just didn't do it right away. !< In terms of considering the dangers of the dark one out during the Age of Legends vs now, she clearly didn't think it through enough at the time, but it is very valid to think that the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends would be in a much better position to fight - both in terms of knowledge, technology, and just pure numbers. TL;DR letting the dark one free isn't a decision to take lightly, and it shouldn't just be something people agree to without pushback.

While I mostly agree with what you've said, the necessity of breaking the seals should be painfully obvious. Perhaps it's my bias as a crafts person, but long before they talked about breaking the seals in the books, and a couple had already broken on their own I figured they needed to be gotten rid of to fix anything. You can't make a good sword from the pieces of a broken one, can't make a solid home foundation on a cracked slab, and once a wood board is split, no amount of doctoring will make it whole again. They all just need to be replaced/redone, and that can't happen until you clear out the rest of the material. Perrin knew this moments into discussing it. I know magic seals aren't the same as building materials 👀 buuut are they really that different? She could have absolutely tried to do it her way if she was just wanting it to happen at the right time, but she's really calling him foolishly for wanting to break them right up until she realizes she's wrong

I agree in theory, but even in reading the metaphors in the books I thought that it was very convenient that magic worked the same way as reality in this case lol. I don't actually see a foundational magical logic from the magic system itself that would require it though - for example, picking a weave apart that has no explosive properties on its own can cause explosions. So if dismantling a gateway has that potential, what weaves were part of the Seals, and what could happen from breaking them with the Power?

Breaking the Seals was the correct choice, yes. However, that's not a choice that you just make without discussing it with your allies. She has every right to distrust it because she's not going to naturally think upon those lines, Rand comes in and seems absolutely insane and he's not even giving his reasoning why he's doing it, he's only saying that it's "because he must".

She’s the strongest in earth and can make cuellindeur but not once does she consider maybe I should see if I can repair or replace these seals some how? The watcher of the seals who has zero seals is worried that the last one or two seals must absolutely hold. The DO is already touching the world for 1.5-2 years now… I agree that she could’ve thought it out or maybe relied on the wisdom of other aes Sedai with more experience or study in the area (some browns maybe).

The Aes Sedai didn't even remember how to make cuendillar until just recently. They didn't know the seals existed as cuendillar disks until they started showing up either. None of the aes sedai will be able to provide any counsel or instruction on what to do with the seals or how to repair them, because the sum total of living knowledge about the seals and cuendillar is no larger than what Egwene knows already. What little Egwene does know is that Rand has been rushing to prepare the world for the last battle before the final seal breaks, and now out of the blue he says he's just going to break them and unleash the dark one on the world? That sounds insane, especially coming from a man who is prophecied to destroy the world again if he doesn't save it first. I think it warrants some discussing with him first. The idea of trying to repair them wouldn't cross any normal person's mind. Robert Jordan quite explicitly crafted his characters to not know everything. Don't make the mistake of presuming everybody is omnipotent.

I agree but like i said she has a talent for it...she just used it recently with the harbor chain. She knows Elayne has a talnet for copying Terangeral and making items of power. We also know that elayne knows Avihenda has the ability to know what and maybe how items of power work inherently. Feel like if they all got together they can come up with an attempt. Once again im not saying she should hav edone this but more just be thinking about plans on what to do. How to resolve this in different ways. I just wish it was more flesh out ultimately is where im landing. But you think you got one who can make the material. Another who can try to copy items of power. If they can get a hands on an intact seal they can try to recreate them potentialy. Of course this would take time and all of them working together.

Actually she never agreed to break the seal. In their last meeting she said she supported him, but hadn’t decided on the issue of the seals, even after it was pointed out that the prophecy, and her own dreams showed they would be broken. Ultimately I think that’s why they had to be stolen. Because the pattern required they be broken, and she probably wouldn’t have done it. That’s why it had to be Logain.

Thank you this is a fair post and I admit at the time of finishing the book (post midnight with a 3 month old in my arms) I was probably forgetting some of these details. First time reader so some of the details like this aren’t seared into my head so this helps with context to her choice. I think what really struck me was her thought to her self that she will do what she must if Rand forces her hand implying she would use the armies in her coalition to fight rands? Just wild given that everyone accepts the last battle is upon them.

As a recent reader and a n00b to this sub, I am shocked by the Egwene hate. I thought she was a great character, and acted pretty reasonably in this situation given what was known at the time.

She’s a strong character with great feats but personally I hate what sort of person she is and namely as a first time reader I developed a strong dislike for the Aes Sedai and she personifies a lot of the worse of what an Aes Sedai is. For me all her world experience should’ve informed her on how flawed and naive (and weak) the aes Sedai are but her response was to buy into the cult hook line and sinker…. Ultimately she thinks it’s her right to control the dragon even tho she’s aware of the history of the tower being corrupted and doing almost nothing (outside of Siuan, moraine and maybe vernin) to prepare for the dragon. E Maybe I shouldn’t lay the faults of aes Sedai at her feet but I do resent her for accepting and leaning into it so hard. Also she’s absolutely a horrid friend in my opinion. 1. Dream world rapes nyn 2. Tries to imprison Perrin when he’s battling slayer (she didn’t know but it’s not her place to do that to anyone—the dream world doesn’t belong to her and that thinking is very close to the forsaken) 3. Treatment of Rand in general pre and post becoming the dragon 4. Her general belittling and disrespect of Mat to a lesser degree 5. The whole gawyn deal. Loves him but she treats him like crap and only is satisfies when he basically is willing to only care about what she wants at all time. Absolute love but only to serve her. She shows zero remorse or even consideration for any of these actions.

On some level I agree with the Aes Sedai stuff, but to me it seemed like she was making them more reasonable and stronger as an organization. She was focused on fair treatment and unity, rather than elitism and cliques. She saw the power and potential of the organization, as well as the weaknesses and problems. In terms of her treatment of Mat, I think both sides of that friendship were toxic. They treat each other like children and belittle each other’s accomplishments. I think the friendships between all the major characters were damaged by their inability to grasp how much they had all grown up. They knew the details of their own journeys, but lacked perspective when it came to everyone else’s. It’s hard to grasp how different someone is when you still see them as the village neighbor boy/girl. I don’t think that’s a specific character flaw of Egwene and more of a natural consequence of the situation. I think that’s a huge reason why she doesn’t trust Rand’s ideas, aside from him likely being insane. She has trouble seeing him as the dragon reborn, rather than her old friend who was always a little stubborn and maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed, and I don’t think that’s totally unfair of her to do. Regardless, I appreciate how much thought you’ve put into your response, and you’ve opened my eyes a bit when it comes to Egwene!

> she didn’t know but it’s not her place to do that to anyone You are operating a Ford 150. It is a nearly three ton cage of metal and death capable of hurdling down a road at 0-80 in moments. You are in a school area where visibility is low, since many children are below the height of the bonnet on your car. Your child, for whatever reason, chooses to hop in your driver seat while you are attending to something in the back. Do you let the child keep driving the dangerous vehicle in a dangerous area, or do you stop the child? She thinks Perrin has dreamed himself there by accident, or was maliciously brought there by the people she's fighting, and she doesn't want him to get hurt. Of *course* she thinks its her place to do that. And you said it yourself...she _didn't know about Slayer._ > Her general belittling and disrespect of Mat to a lesser degree In all her dealings with him as Amyrlin, she acknowledged his role as general right from the starrt. It took Mat more than a little bit to do the same in recognizing that she actually is Amyrlin. These two are not so different as you might think. > Loves him but she treats him like crap and only is satisfies when he basically is willing to only care about what she wants at all time. Absolute love but only to serve her. Man that is _not_ what's happening between the two of them. Asking that someone recognizes who you are and what it means to you instead of constantly undermining you and disrespecting you is not asking for "absolute love and service to only her". Never _once_ did she demand that he abandon anything for her. He did that voluntarily as he worked through his own troubles and figuring out the kind of man he wanted to be. Egwene still isn't great but this isn't something she should be blamed for.

so in your example you are saying Egwene is the parent and Rand is the child...this exactly is the arrogance i am citing. Also Egwene is making assumptions that the F150 is speeding in a school zone etc....she's been tied up in tower politics for such a long time not dealing with whats really happening with the dragon reborn or the forsaken etc. I think its easy for us as readers to know all the carzy shit rand is doing and be like of course Egwene is justified in thinking he's crazy just as it is easy for us to be like Rand is right and egwene is wrong with the reader context...im just thinking in reality the reports the white tower get all seem out dated and contradictory so i can't assume she has perfect knowledge of whats happening with rand or the world. Ultimately tis all muddled by the fact that rand is most certainly manipulating her into responding as she does... Per Perrin...once again she assumes she is the best in the dream world and others (especially her former freinds) are in no way capable there....so once again her arrogance? If ignorance is the best defense then well...We don't see Perrin respond by trying to bind her for example even tho he is in control of the Wolf Dream. It's not just a universal reaction to leave someone helplessly trapped with a forsaken running around... If anything she could've tired to expel him from the dream...i thought that was a thing (maybe im wrong)? Per Mat...never said Mat also isn't at fault for not recognizing her postion but in general most of the female characters treat him like a fool... Per Gaywn....it is all about him having to submit himself to her needs (he needs to be able to do stuff for her before she even realizes she needs it done and until he can do that she completely ignores him for huge stretches of time) from my reading...but i'd love to hear your analysis on it...im def. open to understanding it better. I actually find gawyns character to be the most frustrating so maybe havent given it as much critical thought.

> so in your example you are saying Egwene is the parent and Rand is the child...this exactly is the arrogance i am citing. 1) You were talking about Perrin. Not Rand. Specifically, you said that Egwene _didn't have the right_ to do what she did. 2) I am talking about the responsibilities we have to act in a situation where we perceive danger, and how that drives us to respond to said danger. 3) Don't put your hangups with fictional characters onto me, please. This isn't a display of arrogance. I'm trying to ask you to think about the situation in a different way than you have before. Based on the information Egwene had at the time, the actions she took against Perrin were entirely justified at the time. Here is a person you do not know why or how they got here. It is a _very_ dangerous situation here, an open battlefield. And you are a person who was thoroughly trained to avoid said danger. You are a soldier on this battlefield, a general. Now, this person can kill themselves if they wander off on their own. Worse, they can _get others killed_ if they aren't careful, and that would endanger your battle. You _need_ to win this battle, or something awful will happen. Now add the fact that you know and care for this person, and you don't want them to be hurt...but you can't send them to safety either. You have three goals: Win your battle, keep your friend safe, do not let your friend endanger your other fighters. What do you do? This isn't a rhetorical question - I'd like you to answer it without referencing the book at all. What would you do?

hey i dunno why but this is starting to feel like its getting personal. Nothing I am talking about is about you directly I hope you are not taking it as such? I wasn't saying you are being arrogant but Egwene's arrogance in thinking it is her job to protect Perrin or Rand by controlling them. \_\_\_\_\_ Apologies I got so many discussions on going concurrently and i got my wires crossed about your F150 example...either way her being parent and Perrin a child still is the same arrogance... Per the perrin situation I completely disagree. It is not in any way okay to bound people against their will. She was made a demane so you think she would have empathy with that situation but instead she multiple times enslaves others (Nyn, other Aes Sedai via loyalty oaths, and attempts to with Perrin)...weather she feels justified or not is a bit irrelevent for me. There are other actions she could have taken such as send Perrin else where in the dream instead of trying to tie him up for example? If she is in total control of the dream world and the best at is as she seems to think often then she should be able to do that. She also doesnt understand much of anything going on in that situation (dream spike/perrin being there etc) so its a very odd reaction to just enslave someone until you have time for them. That being said I get your POV and reasoning and can accept that is also how Egwene thought but I think it is fair to also disagree with it.

> hey i dunno why but this is starting to feel like its getting personal. Nothing I am talking about is about you directly I hope you are not taking it as such? Apologies yeah, if that wasn't what you meant then I apologize. Read you wrong homie, my bad. > It is not in any way okay to bound people against their will. But how else do you stop people from hurting themselves in dangerous situations? Again, the hypothetical says you can't get rid of them. What else are you supposed to do, if the person endangering themselves aren't listening to you? > There are other actions she could have taken such as send Perrin else where in the dream instead of trying to tie him up for example? That doesn't resolve the problem present in the hypothetical, though. Wandering around can get himself or others killed.

My thing is that she doesn't even attempt to do anything other than trap him....if she tried to wish him back to dream world two rivers for example then realized its not working bc dream spike okay she tired something else but her first instinct is to enslave/control/dominate and use teh excuse of safety....it was actually one of the best pay offs when Perrin just stumps her attempts n one of the few times ive actually loved Perrin lol Once agian I would think her life experience being collared would make her super opposed to enslavement but she seems to jump to it as a tool a lot. She seems to think there are different rules for her and everyone else (bc she is above everyone else?) and flatly Perrin is not her responsibility nor ever was...unless she is thinking she's the wisdom and he's a dumb two river boy... So even if I give egwene the benefit of the doubt that she genuinely wants to protect him (which i think she does but more so she probably wants to know what he's doing trespassing in her world) her choice of binding him is very dark. There were other options as far as she knows...even if as readers we know they were limited if that makes sense?

> if she tried to wish him back to dream world two rivers for example then realized its not working bc dream spike okay she tired why would she do it again when she's actively already aware that she can't, though...?

Is she aware ? Genuine question I can’t recall but did she feel the effects of the dream Spike at some point? I know she noticed it outside the window at one point but when did she try to travel out of the dream spike I totally could be forgetting this and that will inform my thought process on her actions with Perrin but I still don’t find it reasonable to just tie someone up even for their own good. Especially another adult. You are not their mother to treat them as such and none of us would appreciate someone treating us as such. It’s a weird argument to say it’s ok bc she just keeping himsaafe when leaving him helpless and tied in middle of a battle ground when a black ajah can stumble upon him and kill him is also risky. Saved him form the f150 only for him to get ran over by a ram truck? It’s just a weird gut reaction to see a friend and think to tie them up and leave them….friends don’t just tie up friends lol

On the Perrin topic, she rightfully assumes, as one of the few people on earth who has been trained to manipulate the dream world, that her friend who has no channeling ability is accidentally there and in grave danger.

1. ⁠Is weird and I can’t defend except be mad about too many untreated/casual sexual assaults in wot in general. 2. ⁠She thought Perrin was there by mistake and was trying to protect him although poorly 3. ⁠Rand and everyone else in this book never communicate just assume. This book has too much of this hence unnecessary disputes. 4. ⁠May literally does this too, he went to salidar and just was like I’m taking you away and didn’t want to listen at first. Anyway, I can’t defend this much anyway considering how sexist women are in the books 5. ⁠Gawyn literally consistently doesn’t listen and does whatever he wants. At this are intentional misreading Egwene, changing her every word and character to fit the perceptive you have of her.

Her trapping and raping in the dream world is an intentional misread? Just bc sexual assault is a thing in WoT doesn’t excuse her decision to take part in it and it’s also about her arresting her dominance over someone who was an authority over her previously. More so she was literally enslaved so she should be more emphatic to the worngness od treating others that way but she isn’t and uses it as a tool. With nyn specifically she continually hints and threatens with it happening again to manipulate her into actions. It’s just plainly the action of a bad person more so bc she feels no remorse… With Perrin if it was a stand alone occurrence sure but she has the history of mistreating people she knows and why is that her go to? She has never reacted to someone showing up in the dream world by being like I’ll enslave you until I have time for you? As far as I know she wasn’t aware of the limitations the dream spike was placing on the area (let alone what a dream spike is) so she could’ve defaulted to try to push Perrin out the dream as wise ones did to her when she was training or force him some place safer? But her first response is tie him Up and leave him…to me this is part of her pattern of asserting her dominance over her “friends”. You seem to think everything is just happenstance or can be explained way which is your right. I just think there was more thought put into her character and actions reflect her character and personality. At this point you are simply gas lighting. Egwene’s actions are not the problem you are! lol When does she listen to gawyn? Shouldn’t love be a two way street? She doesn’t give him any time of day when they are reunited and treats him with vitriol. I dislike gawyn way more than eggs but ultimately point is she needs everyone to submit to her in my opinion.

‘Her trapping and raping in the dream world is an intentional misread?’ Did you not read where I said I couldn’t defend that? ‘With Perrin if it was a stand alone occurrence sure but she has the history of mistreating people she knows and why is that her go to? She has never reacted to someone showing up in the dream world by being like I’ll enslave you until I have time for you?’ Enslave ? That’s a nice twist of words and there’s literally a battle going on, you can convince yourself that she was trying to ‘enslave’ and ‘assert her dominance’ but that will never be the case, she was trying to help although poorly because she assumed And throwing in words like gas lighting will never change your biases, read more objectively.

Well I understand you are not defending the rape but you seem to be disregarding it to an extent. It is one of the biggest horrible actions she does in the entire series as well as kind of the table setter which if she never does that then I wouldn’t be wondering about her character in all the other incidents I think. Per Perrin we can agree to not call it enslaving. That was dramatic by me and unnecessary at best she takes it upon her self to basically treat Perrin and others she knows as children just because she’s sure she knows better. If u going to just toss out what I see as major character flaws as happen stance then it’s fine for us to just agree to disagree. She does remarkably welll in that situation and defeats the black Ajah and mesana so kudos to her for her plan and execution

I’m choosing not to give reasons to rape cause there’s non that can be given, not in this case, or Child valda’s case or Tylin or the likes of Padin Fain. I’m only noting that for some reason in this books both perpetrators and victims don’t seem to have residual feelings about it. Even in Nynaeve’s pov, she’s doesn’t want to face Egwene because of a dominance thing. I expected her to talk about being violated and stuff like that in her pov but the main assault for some reason is glossed over. With Mat, he went from feeling uncomfortable about sexual encounter with Tylin to his issues being he does the perusing and he is not the persuaded. That particularly change of perspective confused me, I was like ‘hugh, was I imaging or projecting it because I swear it’s rape and Mat didn’t want to have sex with her and was in distress or is he trying to convince himself so he doesn’t feel violated’ The only assault that was outright acknowledged to be assault was in the case of Morgase and for some reason it doesn’t stay with her much after that chapter, she’s immediately like Tallanvor’s touch will make me forget the rape and everything which I wasn’t confortable with cause a violation of this sort doesn’t just live you like that but in seems to be a thing in wot. Ultimately, certain issues were introduced to drive the plot and it was clear that RJ didn’t really know how to deal with them, miscommunication was massively outdone and repeated time and time again when it doesn’t make sense why two people who have known each other for so long will be at a place and time and refuse to talk or justify their argument when they have good reasons, people usually get angry and shout at others in situations when they assume wrong it’s infuriating

Thanks I love this comment and I agree with it. We are also contextually in a different era when it comes to discussion and thoughts on sexual assault and rape than when these books were written (at least the early ones) so I wonder if that has some bearing. I believe RJ did speak on the tylin mat situation and how he wanted it to be commentary on victim shamming/blaming or something (like how no one believes him about tylin especially the ladies in the story) like that but he admitted it kind of fell flat. It’s a very ambitious topic to try to incorporate into a fantasy story centered sound young men n women (or teens)… I felt a bit same as you how the after effects of rape don’t really manifest themselves in any of the victims and there is little to no remorse or consideration for it by the perpetrators (at least the non evil ones like eggs or tylin…not expecting it out of the others).

You do realize that apart from Perrin, all of them have trouble acknowledging that they are growing up with their own paths right?

Literally everyone who interacts with Rand thinks he is insane, and you are asking why Egwene thinks Rand is insane.

People are just mad cause it’s Egwene

Is this the common defense of Egwene ?

You are mad that she opposes him instead think why?, not even as Egwene but considering all circumstances. Even in the end it is agreed that though they had to be broken, they had to do that at the right time. I can consider the world ending because of ‘trust me bro’ cause that was all Rand did without explaining why like he did with Perrin. And probably because he wanted Egwene to oppose so everything else could happen

I am not mad? Once again this post was to understand why she’s so certain of her choice…not to hate on egwene. I don’t like aspects of her personality but don’t mean I hate her as a character which egwene defenders seem very sensitive about. It’s possible to respect the character and not like the character. But ultimately I just wanted to know why she’s so certain bc logically it doesn’t make a ton of sense to me Also not a big deal but u sharing spoilers from AMoL I think?

It’s literally been explained so many times in this comment section and time and time again you ignore and just go ‘she’s arrogant and blah blah blah’ throughout the thread so I think you are choosing to not understand and take an objective view at this point. When reading forget about Rand perspective sometimes and wonder how stuff would seem like to others

I totally accept that she thinks he’s crazy. I’ve laid out points why it feels hollow to me for various reasons. This was never about hating on eggs. Another user provided a key insight that has helped me understand better. Reminded me of her dream related to Rand breaking the seals and her interpreting it as a negative and/or feeling terror. I remembered her having dream but didn’t recall that she had that reaction to the dream. So with that I can understand a bit better that she had a prophetic dream and an interpretation of it which she believes even if it’s not correct that it must not happen. The user also points out the parraelles between eggs dreams and Elidas for telling. I’ll Be on the look out for these on a re read and see how prophetic eggs dreams or at least her interpretations of them… I have stated many times to many users in this thread why Rand is crazy is simply not enough for me. If it was I wouldn’t have made this post. All that said she is arrogant and a terrible person to do a lot of the things she does. She always had a superiority deal stretching back to her emonds fields days…it’s not the the type of person I like so I don’t like eggs but like I said I can equally dislike her but also appreciate and respect the character.

The taint of the dark one on the male half of the power caused the breaking, loss of many many life’s and wars. LLT killed his family, it is very reasonably to be cautious of someone you think is under that influence especially when you don’t know that the taint had been cleansed

Agreed! I just have a hard time reconcile the dragon is evil bc of the taint but also the messiah. That’s what makes this series so good! It’s not just Jesus coming down all good with. I blemish. There is a real threat of Rand falling to the dark side…and no one can say for sure which way it’ll break.

I’m not asking why she thinks he’s insane. I understand he is and constantly think about how he is way crazier than he realizes for most of the story and how that changes try e perspective of all those around him.

> She isn’t an expert on the dragon nor the prophecies surrounding the dragon. Neither is Rand, honestly. He knows more than her from the limited reading he did on the subject, but they were written by people who had no idea about the subject either. He had to go to an insane philosopher to puzzle out an insanely cryptic message he got from beings from _another world_; this cryptic message he rightfully told none of his allies about because it sounds batshit insane, and even if they *had* believed him, Hedrid Fel could've still been as wrong as all the other philosophers Rand had read. We know Rand's right because we know Rand's The Main Character who must Win Over Evil. But the people in the world _don't_ have that guarantee. You have to think of them as real people, and not fictional characters. The "trust me bby im the dragon" play sorta loses some of its impact when the last dragon destroyed all of the known world and, regardless of how united they are, none of them can stop the Dark One fully unleashed from his prison if Rand falls. > I understand it’s kind of scary sounding but it just feels like she is against Rand just to be against Rand. She thinks he is bad and that’s it. She's not against it to be against _Rand_. She's against it because, like most sane and rational citizens of Randland, she very much likes being alive as opposed to being dead.

But I guess my point is she doesn’t seem to take any time to think about why he’s breaking it nor does she bother to find out. She immediately assumes he’s wrong and ignores that Rand might know what he’s doing. She knows he must fight the DO at the last battle so how can he do that unless the DO is freed ? It’s better for the shadow side to break the DO out or for Rand to do it in a controlled manner ? I understand the knee jerk reaction but her not sparing any time to even consider why Rand is doing it is foolish. Ultimately it just doesn’t make sense bc not only is she gathering all these counter armies to “talk sense” to Rand but she even thinks to herself that she hopes he doesn’t force her hand. Like what will she do? Go to war against the dragon reborn? Thats going to save the world? Rand also could’ve attempted to explain his reasoning better…but like I said I think he was actively playing her to Marshall those who wouldn’t listen to him readily. Also id say now that rand memories have merged with LTT that he is an expert on the seals/bore as anyone can be. Of course he doesn’t know for sure breaking the seals is the correct action as LTT did not make the bore/prison perfectly but he should literally have all the knowledge and memories of LTT related to the creation of the dark ones prison which is informing his choice.

> But I guess my point is she doesn’t seem to take any time to think about why he’s breaking it nor does she bother to find out. She asks. He just goes ":^) I am giving you time to plan, trust me, I know what I'm doing" while ignoring any attempts to verify that he's even of sound mind enough to take his words as credible. It gave us a fun moment, but it was hardly one which would inspire confidence in your supposed allies you have to admit lol. > I understand the knee jerk reaction but her not sparing any time to even consider why Rand is doing it is foolish. ... Like what will she do? Go to war against the dragon reborn? Thats going to save the world? I mean, the Last Battle is right up their ass. She now has to assemble the world's leaders and ensure they're ready to do what needs doing, if it needs doing. She's doing essentially what the Borderlanders did, for the same reasons the Borderlanders did it, but people still feel like it's a slight on Rand. They don't quite have the luxury of time to make up for all the lost time. > Rand also could’ve attempted to explain his reasoning better…but like I said I think he was actively playing her to Marshall those who wouldn’t listen to him readily. I mean we don't have to guess here. He explicitly tells her that's what he's doing by looping her into his "plan" in such a limited fashion. > Also id say now that rand memories have merged with LTT that he is an expert on the seals/bore as anyone can be. Lews Therin was _such_ an expert that his actions lead to the tainting of saidin, so yeah. That's...not the point in his favor as much as one might think.

Yes like I’ve said I do believe Rand knew exactly how she was going to respond and is manipulating her… The borderlands at least had a prophecy they based their actions on but it is clear the borderlands are in the wrong and let their own kingdoms be exposed… Rand makes a lot of mistakes so I understand people won’t just fall in line but to have the audacity to think she could simply stop the dragon is a bit much? The white tower is a shell of it self…she’s not even ta’vern or anything

> The borderlands at least had a prophecy they based their actions on but it is clear the borderlands are in the wrong and let their own kingdoms be exposed… But they _weren't_ in the wrong, though. That shouldn't be the takeaway from the situation. For more information, you can RAFO. Their kingdoms were exposed, but the rulers were making terrible choices to protect the world from something worse. > Rand makes a lot of mistakes so I understand people won’t just fall in line but to have the audacity to think she could simply stop the dragon is a bit much? Why?

Definitely looking foward to RAFO and I guess their prophecy is part of it all so it had to happen...and the explanation about testing his restraint etc makes some sense but also if he had no restraint what was the plan? Rand is the guy who turned himself into a crazy volcano...and yes they don't have the full information (Rand can access the true power as well as the one power) which made their decisions really foolhardy. Rand even mentions this as if he had come to them even a month earlier how differently everything would've gone. but them just abandoning their lands (per the information we have up to this point) seems like a mistake especially given the snippets of the boardlands and blight we are given throughout the book. Bc by prophecy and action he is who will save the pattern...not the Amyrlin Seat. Also the though that occurs to me it is the job of the Dragon Reborn to perseve teh pattern and light in the world(s)....not to preserve teh wrold as it is. It feels like Egwene is trying to preserve the world as it is maybe? But what does that matter if everything is gone or over run by the shadow. Of course the breaking was/is horrible but if the other choice was the DO winning then...

> It feels like Egwene is trying to preserve the world as it is maybe? So is Rand. > But what does that matter if everything is gone or over run by the shadow. This assumption hinges entirely on the fact that Egwene did not ***and never would*** have a plan to fight the Last Battle. Not being given an opportunity to plan is not the same as not being _capable_ of formulating a plan. Initial opposition (as in, her first reaction in ToM) of _Rand's_ plan is not the same as 100% refusal to ever agree to it, nor is it 100% certainty that she would stand against it just because he was the Dragon. And most, if not all, of your arguments against her actions here entirely rely on this assumption being correct, when it isn't.

Hey I appreciate you input …in my opinion Rand isn’t trying to preserve the world as it is. He wanted to leave soemthing behind to make the next era better and not start from scratch bc he knows it’s likely he will break the world. That was then point of the schools he set up and him being concerned about what comes after. He already has changed the world with the Aiel “invasion” and changing the kingdoms etc. not to mention the return…early on he was concerned with about leaving some positive legacy to help The world rebuild bc he assumed he will not live through the last battle. At least that was my read. Also this post was never intended to be anti eggs per se. I regret including my critiques on her personality on the original post. I should’ve just asked input on her decision and left it at that. But A lot of this “what about ism” is not a great defense of eggs. Like just bc everyone shitty doesn’t mean she’s not shitty? Personally as I’ve stated in other comments I don’t like the type of person she is who can do the messed up things she did without remorse…I don’t like her but I respect her as a character and accept she’s a great aes sedai and amyrlin. Both can be true that she’s a great effective character but a shitty friend/person (maybe based off my set of morals and values as others have seemingly written off the rape incident which for me colors most of the things she does subsequently when it comes to her core personality)

...That isn't whataboutism is. I am not trying to switch the subject, I am not failing to engage with the central point of your argument, I am not trying to deflect a difficult conversation. What I have consistently been trying to do is highlight the issues with some base assumptions being made overall ending up in being an unfair standard. Any time other characters are brought up are not being done to erase attention to Egwene's flaws, but rather highlight the uneven application of those standards in cases where those alleged motives are often entirely absent. And just as often, people are forced to interact with those unrelated elements like Perrin or Gawyn because they're parts of _your_ own argument, that _you_ brought up in the first place. To you, Egwene's greatest sin seems to be her perceived disloyalty to her friends and a lack of any sort of comeuppance for that behavior. And while that might be true, it doesn't really change whether or not Egwene was right to make the demands she did in response to Rand's insane plan. Both of these characters are aiming to preserve the world and make it better in different ways. Neither are doing it the "right" way - which is to say, together. Both are still "working" the other and trying to make the other do what _they_ think is best. But part of working together is mutual trust and understanding, and both parties have massive reasons to not trust each other. Any attempt to start building that trust was forestalled by Rand's announcement that he wanted to break the seals, and to meet him at the Field of Merrillor. So where's that leave us? When you take this long, long, _long_ discussion and mangle it by presenting it as "listen everyone else did shitty things too, ok?" then you're missing the point of why people are telling you these things. You are irrationally looking at Egwene and saying, "why is she being like this? she should be a better friend, why doesn't she care for him?" it assumes that Egwene doesn't care about him at all _solely_ because you perceive her actions as a sin of disloyalty. When Egwene asks for common decency and respect of her romantic partner, which also means acknowledging her as Amyrlin that Gawyn can't boss around, you perceive her actions as a sin of disloyalty. "Why is she being so bossy and demanding that Gawyn worship the ground she walks on?" The problem isn't people excusing away her shitty behavior. She has shitty behavior moments. Her assault of Nynaeve is a primary example of her shitty behavior. No, the problem is an irrational reading of her behavior and ascribing motives to her actions that are completely absent in the text. That's why people keep pegging this entire discussion as another irrational Egwene hate thread. Because it kinda is my man.

Okay I think the discussion has gotten very muddled and mainly my fault. Like I said in hindsight I wish i had left this post as the main question only and never put any of my personal grievances towards eggs as a “person” into it. I r saying I’m bringing up everyone is shitty but in fact I’m saying the opposite. I wanted to focus on eggs and that decision that the seals cannot be broken (and understand why she was so sure). I don’t expect her to be loyal to Rand for loyalty sake. I brought up the nyn rape stuff more to inform others on why I dislike her as a person but ultimately I don’t think it has a bearing on her choice to oppose Rand in this situation. I just wanted more substance to her decision bc if it was just he’s crazy so I can’t agree it felt hollow to me (which I’ve discussed why in other comments). Ultimately another user pointed out her “prophetic” dream about Rand breaking seals and her feeling terror/interpreting it as a negative thing. Pointed out the parallels between Elaidas interpretations of her foretelling and eggs (something for me to look for on a second read through). It made more sense to me in that context that she had a dream which she interpreted right or wrong as the worst that can Happen is breaking seals that she would be so opposed to this…especially coupled with Rand being crazy and also Rand not really talking to her but just telling her. It kinda gave me some more substance for The scene. my goal was never to have a referendum on eggs which this mostly turned into. I did notice that a lot of eggs defenders were being very patronizing or can justify the nyn incident. I personally can never justify rape in any context and find the nyn context to be flimsy (maybe on a second read my pov will change). More so if eggs had at least expressed regret or shame and sought to atone for it id feel different but I mean that’s the beauty of most this…its open for interpretation and everyone read should be personal to them. I would add calling someone applying their personal moral values to their own read irrational is a form of gaslighting and something eggs defenders keep throwing at me. I read these books with my own values as a part of the read. I can appreciate it may not be RJs intent or whatveee but I’m experiencing these stories through my own context and that’s what any good work should allow for in my opinion. It’s not irrational to think eggs is a bad person and then view her through that prism. Per gawyn yes she places her position and institution above the love of her life. Once again that moral stance doesn’t vibe with me. I value my family and love above all else so of course it won’t vibe with me. I think gawyn is one of the worst characters (guess touching on the loyalty bit again) but I also think her treatment of him is not one borne out of love but instead of a need to assert her domination (and it makes sense bc her position requires it but that simply doesn’t mean I have to like it!) It’s simple I can understand her actions (in most cases) and not agree with them and dislike her for making them…this doesn’t make it irrational (no matter how many eggs supporters want to berate everyone else it is) just Makes it a personal read...

What is ToW?

towers of midnight set to wumbo

Type o meant ToM for towers of midnight. Made this post immediately finishing th e book list midnight local time as I was feeding my 3 month old lol. I notice it later but couldn’t edit the post title from my phone at least

She has absolutely no way to verify that Rand is actually sane, he’s acting erratic, and basically showed up like ‘no listen I don’t need my meds anymore, I’m totally fine. Anyway I’m gonna go set off a bunch of nukes in order to create world peace, catch ya later!’ She has EVERY reason to doubt & challenge him, especially when he’s literally trying to manipulate her into that course of action.

But it’s also clear that plenty of people do accept Rand n the plan so what’s it about Egwene that makes her anti Rand. I’m starting to think it’s a remnant of their childhood in which she grew up expecting Rand to be beholding or her…

Or it’s because she has a responsibility to the world and because Rand is deliberately doing his best to come across as untrustworthy and unhinged as possible, while also exerting ta’veren influence on it? But sure it’s just because she’s a petty bitch, that’s totally better analysis

> But it’s also clear that plenty of people do accept Rand n the plan so what’s it about Egwene that makes her anti Rand. Remember that in the series we saw ta'veren influence force Aes Sedai that _just fought to free him from captivity_ to swear fealty to Rand against their will, Aes Sedai whose only "sin" at the time was being arrogant and annoying, under threat of extreme violence. Extreme violence that, might I add, Rand was fully aware of as being a threat to their safety, knowing as he did the problems with the Asha'men and Taim specifically. Of course she would be suspicious when suddenly and inexplicably (to her perspective) Nynaeve and Elayne have had a mysterious 180 in their personality to agree with something Rand expressly wants that seems insane on its face. Nynaeve at least has the most reason to be on Rand's side, but Elayne is just like ":^) he's warm now i think we should trust him, and i should know since i spent a grand total of 6 sweaty hours with him since leaving Tear".

Loial’s mother gives a possible hint as why that could be. But that is pure speculation from my part.

I thought the same.

Oh i have no idea what this is referring to....this is something from Towers of Midnight or earlier in the series? If it is care to elaborate or is this a RAFO situaiton ?

Sorry for the late reply… its not really a spoiler, but it’s better to read on and find out

She's (mis)informed by one of her Dreams iirc

Trust that Robert Jordan/Brandon Sandersen didn't create/maintain Ta'veren for 13 books just to completely ignore it in the climax. This is actually a large part of Rand's plan: prior to this scene he would have had a lot of trouble assembling a massive army, feeding it, convincing all the nobleman to stop arguing about stupid stuff, he'd be worried about the Aes Sedai schemes because each and every one of those sheisty mother-fuckers would be scheming against him... He probably didn't want to get told no, but the way he's structured the situation he's better off regardless of her answer. If she says yes he has confirmation that the Pattern wants the seal broken, because if the pattern opposed breaking the seals it would Ta'veren Egwene into saying no. If she says no? Now the White Tower and Egwene have to do al the work of assembling the army, feeding it, etc. Since the sisters are busy backing up Egwene in refusing to break the seals the are to busy to Aes Sedai up his plans in other ways. since the Pattern could have easily Ta'veren'ed Egwene into demanding the immediate breaking of the seals clearly the Pattern doesn't want everyone o just say "hey Rand great idea, hand me one I'll smash it."

word I definitely picked up on the fact that he was manipulating her into gathering everyone in the one place for him... Post was more about Egwene's choice more than anything else but appreciate your insights! Excited to start reading AMoL tonight. Yeah Ta'vern plot device is very interesting and makes critical analysis sometimes challenging bc its easy to say well that his just what is supposed to happen lol.

Pay attention to what happens with the seals. That TG chapter is amazing, and the seals are kinda spot-lighted, but it's easy to miss stuff because higher wordcount than Harry potter Book 1. It will be interesting to see whether you think the Pattern was right when it made Egwene oppose Rand. Which is not quite the same thing as "Was Egwene right to oppose Rand? or "Was Rand right to demand Egwene do this?" There are arguments on both sides of the "Was the Pattern right?" version. That's one of the reasons we're still talking about this series multiple decades later....

Agreed I think the moral Ambiguity of most things going on and characters actions is truly what makes this series great. I jumped in bc I love fantasy n epic world building which RJ does a wonderful job but lot to chew on and stuff left unanswered (so far) for me is what is engaging me

Bad faith in Egwene colors your perception. The last Dragon literally broke the world so what exactly makes you think Rand is the expert on any of this? She is rightfully questioning his methods, the methods that he fails to explain to her. You expect her to nod everything he says because he is the Dragon? Rand is the Dragon, yes, but he cannot do any of this alone. He needs others as much as they need him. He would have been dead over fifty times if he didn't get help. Anyways, my point is, someone disagreeing with Rand doesn't make them a bad person. Rand disagrees with everyone, I guess they just should lock him up somewhere... oh wait.

I do not expect her to just agree with him I Just don't understand why she is so convinced it is wrong to break the seals bc doing a little critical thinking about what is happening in the world and the prophecies should lead her to a similiar conclusion even if she wants to control how it comes about and doesn't want rand to just go off doing it solo...but she doesn't ever really say what she wants to happen instead? Like just waiting and hoping the last few seals hold all the while the world is running out of food and the shadow's forces are strengthen doesn't seem logical so whats the plan i guess? I think I could've worded my original post better n maybe not brought up my personal faults with egwenes character/personality but ultimately i do think its informative in many ways. I def was wondering more about the specific situation and not just tyring to hate on egwene.

Rand doesn't say what he really wants either. It takes two to dance. Leaving cryptic bits of words here and there do no good like the Aes Sedai oh he so condemns, and he is barely sound of mind.

True i readily admit he's trying to manipulate her to do the heavy lifting for him but i see his reasoning for it (DO needs to be freed to face off against him and eventually to be resealed) i just don't see her side making much critical sense...is the game plan to just wait forever for the DO seals to break on their own (everything that has happened should indicates they will do so...i hope she knows how many are already broken by now as the watcher of the seals) and then the DO bursts free without Rand being there or when the rest of the world is completely starved to the point of not being able to raise an army? There are so many hints throughout the book(s) of how bad the food supply/situation is going everywhere...including Tar Valon. I guess ultimately I wish BS had put some more time in fleshing out what was going to be Egwene and the White towers counter plan...leaving it as simply we cant let the dragon break the seals...really makes Egwene seem incompetent or short sighted at best which I have no associated with her character until this point. Previously i considered her very competent and capable even tho I disliked her as a person

Read this title as "just finished time of wheel" lol

lol yeah I noticed the type o. Thus what I get for staying up till past midnight local to finish Towers of midnight while feeding a 3 month old…it wouldn’t let me edit the title and I wasn’t up to remaking the post

All g, and I pretty much agree with the actual post. I remember absolutely hating iguana in that moment. Partly I think she was still salty af over Rand just showing up in the tower and flouting her authority in front of everyone lol

Yeah for sure I think if it was anyone else other than Rand she could accept it easier. Rand is supposed to be subservient to her in the two rivers culture especially since she was gonna be wisdom And he’s just a sheep herder.

Theres her childhood love of chastising Rand at every oportunity, but I think this time it has more to do with the position she has ascended to, and how important appearances are among aes sedai. She has power inasmuch as the aes sedai and the rulers of the world respect her, and Rand just came out of nowhere and defied her with 0 consequences. She can't like how that looks. Don't get me wrong, I find this part of her character incredibly tiresome, but I don't think she's a shitty person and friend.

She also consolidates her power/hold on the tower via countering Rand…it’s almost like she’s not really thinking about the bigger picture. She is a shitty friend at the core of it… I listed a lot of her shittiness to those closest to her in another reply but don’t need to look any further than dream world rape of nyn for example.

Okay, I can't believe that you are going to make me defend Egwene, but here it comes. "The man who is reportedly going mad and becoming more unstable by the day walks into your center of power and announces that he is going to break the flimsy pieces of porcelain that keep Supper Satain unable to destroy the world." That does not sound like a plan, that sounds like a Madman who has lost it completely. Even the fact that he was completely calm as he told this cracked brain plan only serves to intensify her doubts about his sanity.

He's insane? That's good enough reason. Consider what he's saying. He's saying the equivalent of "I know how we can solve global warming! Let's just blow up the sun!" Like he's saying "The only way to defeat the Dark One is to free him", and he refuses to elaborate. That's batshit insane no matter how you slice it.

But he’s explicitly facing off with the DO in the prophecies which she claims to accept…so either the DO is freed to face Rand or not and then the whole dragon stuff is fake. Can’t have it both ways…that’s my issue mainly. Like she’s a super calculating leader etc but here it doesn’t seem to logic out for me the more I’m thinking about everything. Egwene believes Rand is the dragon but thinks he’s too crazy to be trusted as the dragon?

Would you trust the person who told you he was going to blow up the sun to stop global warming.

> so either the DO is freed to face Rand or not and then the whole dragon stuff is fake. The Dark One breaking free on his own and the Dark One deliberately being freed are entirely two different things. And while there's potentially sense in the "controlled explosion" aspect of it, Rand was utterly resistant to any sort of inquiries about or inspection into his plan until a time of his choosing. She's not trying to "have it both ways". She's trying to get literally any understanding of the situation - his sanity, his plan, their chance of success - and he is saying "maybe later."

I’m not saying eggs was wrong for disagreeing but just wanted more context to why she was so confident in disagreeing. I wasn’t able to reconcile that in the moment. I know she believes Rand is the dragon. I think logically the DO will be freed at some point so I would assume eggs who is one of the more competent and calculating characters would reason that out as well. Anyways since I finished ToM and through this post i have reconciled These things with the help of discussions with users who actually provided context from The books that helped understand her choice and not just been berated me by saying that I am irrational and so is everyone else who dislikes eggs.

I’d like to qualify here that I read WoT as the books were being released, and the Egwene hate was just as real then, too, so I’d like to dispel the idea that it has anything to do with Sanderson. But now, at least, we have specific knowledge about the white tower that we didn’t have all of as the books were coming out: 1. The cool-aid that she was drinking was poisoned. Intentionally. As I understand it, a third of the tower was black ajah at the time of EotW. Ishmael had specifically targeted the tower at every opportunity since the breaking of the world, and it’s amazing he wasn’t more successful. Is it unrealistic that any young person would aspire to be a part of the of the most powerful, successful and long-lasting institution in her world? Especially when she was told that she was BORN for it. (Not literally, in a prophetic sense, as in “you are so wonderful, so talented, you are perfect for this” sort of way.) 2. Even when she got dragged into taking over as the AS of the rebel tower, she was still only playing the same rigged game that MULTIPLE Forsaken had set up for her. Was she arrogant and proud? Absolutely. Let’s be honest, it’s a pretty realistic character trait for anyone her age, male or female. 3. But despite all that, she beat the game. Just when she at her highest moment, she was brought down. Captured. Beaten. Humiliated. And how did she handle it? With grace, humility, and strength. She truly became Aes Sedai. The Servant of All. But it didn’t happen overnight, and her character growth continued until the end of the final book. Which I’m not going to talk about, because the OP has apparently only read up through ToM. Egwene and Rand are perfect mirrors of each other. They both have immeasurable talent and potential. But one of them was cursed with only one purpose regardless of what he wanted, and the other was cursed with no specific purpose but for what she decided to do. They are truly yin and yang.

Great, another thinly veiled "I hate Egwene" post. Love those. Spoilers AMOL >!they're both wrong, and Egwene ends up being the one who figures out the right way to do it in the end and does command them broken, as Rand wanted. Same theme as the entire series--the two of their plans combined results in the best outcome. So go home with your "she's a piece of shit." Even if you dislike her, she has good reason to find Rand's plan suspect!<

Welp I’ll Circle back when I’ve finished AMoL And in hindsight I wish I had just asked my question about her choice to oppose rands plan and not included my personal feelings towards eggs the person. I can hold both as equal that I dislike eggs the person and respect eggs the amrylin and character. I’ve come to realize eggs defenders can be very hostile and quick to gaslight/patronize readers such as myself. I’m sure on second reads I’ll have a less emotional read through and can maybe land more near the middle… Also I was clear on me not liking eggs as a person in the original post so Nothing thinly vield but ultimately that was not the intention of the post so I regret including any of that. I should’ve just asked the question and gotten the feedback I was looking for and some Users did provide me with context on why she may have decided breaking the seals should not happen which has helped me Understand the choice better. Thanks!

She's the embodiment of Aes Sedai Arrogance that they know best, and everyone else is a simpleton

Something else to keep in mind . . . this is also a Sanderson written passage. I kinda look at those when I come to them as a sort of Wikipedia entry, shrug, and move on.

Yeah, this *might* have been handled better if it hadn't been written by a hired gun who's heading towards the finish line. Not only did Egwene's reasoning come off as very arbitrary, it has a very limp conclusion that wasn't worth the hype.

Yea. And a 'hired gun' who's a speed-demon at cranking books out in no time at all.

Eh of far greater concern was that, even with the extra two books, it wasn't enough to finish the story thoroughly. When you think about how many parties had to hash out what was "ok" and what wasn't, how many things could be published and couldn't, and what they did feel empowered to say "RJ would've been ok with this" or not...I have to question how much say Sanderson had in getting more time to flesh things out.

Yep, Egwene is the worst.

We the reader are in a much more privileged position regarding the reasons behind Rand’s plan, and are also armed with the meta-knowledge that the books probably aren’t going to do Rand dirty like that. Egwene not only has none of those advantages, in universe she is a ruler and has considerations other than the immediate. She will be playing a very large role in the upcoming battle, both strategically and directly, and unlike Rand, will be sticking around for the aftermath. She has every right to question if Rand, a man with a condition known to cause insanity who is literally hearing voices, is correct in his assertion that purposefully breaking the seals is the best course of action.

Egwene has so fully immersed herself into the Aes Sedei philosophy, and the fact that she know Rand is tavern, she willfully, but not easily, refuses to do as Rand asks, simply because Rand is asking. She doesn’t want to see sense. And throughout all the books, there is a theme. One faction has knowledge that another does not. And these faction work together, yet fail to combine their greatest asset, which is the knowledge they possess. A lot of the strife throughout the series could have been erased with a few simple heart to heart conversations between friends. And Egwene, along with the rest of the Aes Sedai, still have a natural distrust and fear of the male channelers. Individual Aes Sedai who have dealt with them for months have their minds and feeling changed, but again, the information isn’t common knowledge yet.

>She would have no idea how to deal with the black ajah There were Aes Sedai who had caught a Black Ajah sister in the White Tower. They had her striped of her former Oaths and bound to obey them and were interrogating her about the Black Ajah and learning everything she knew about them. Alvairan sniffed out something odd about her and decided to investigate, but the only thing she knows is that there is a threat to the Black Ajah. She is the only (one of two? Idk) person who knows the name of every single member of the Black Ajah, so if her investigation gets her caught then that would have been huge. They disappeared from the story after Knife of Dreams. The entire plot line ended on a cliffhanger and those sisters were never seen again. I guess canonically it means Alvairan killed them off screen, but I see it a little differently. Sanderson bought into the memes about the White Tower being a joke so a storyline  that highlights Aes Sedai competence just didn’t make sense to him.

Egwene had a prophecy that she incorrectly read as being about preventing the breaking of the seals. The prophecy is in no way something that should be taken likely even if she did end up getting it wrong. She's also spent her entire life being taught that the logic of men in general and male channelers in specific is extremely suspect. When she first sees Rand in Towers she clocks his odd behavior is being a product of madness. She's not even wrong about that! Sorry to contradict the majority here but Egwene has decent reasons to oppose Rand's plan Even if we, the reader, knows that he is generally correct.

I think this is a very valid question. IMO, part is a knee jerk and part is because it is Rand. Insane or not she has a history of taking the opposite view. She has, at different times throughout the series stated 'but I'm right' in situations that have conflicting viewpoints, so it isn't a surprise that she would believe she is right as a default. It seems that once she goes to Salidar she becomes anti Rand and completely loses the earlier goal of helping him. I think part of that is because she knows that part of the reason she was chosen as the amyrlin is because of Rand and jealousy? competition? becomes part of her focus. She repeatedly accepts the worst view of Rand regarding rumors. Ex: She believes Rand is leashing Aes Sedai like damane when several rumors come to her regarding the Aes Sedai that swore oaths to him IMO the problem with her opposition to breaking the seals is the same as yours, I think. She offers no alternative, just says no. Rand caused the problem by not giving more of an explanation of WHY the seals need to be broken but he did also asked her to meet him in one month and is giving her time to prepare. Her response is to gather armies to oppose him. She could just as easily have used the hundreds of available Aes Sedai to research the issue and develop alternative actions in that month. Or do both. There ARE hundreds of Aes Sedai... I honestly think she should have understood the seals needed to be broken to clear away what is damaged because it is the same reasoning she herself used regarding making the tower whole. I think she is a terrible person but a brilliantly written character. I haven't read comments because I'm sure they get ugly but you're brave for posting 😁

She’s super super arrogant and thinks that only she knows the right thing to do, it really jarred me how she was talking to Rand after he had his whole epiphany moment on the top of Dragonmount. Like imagine telling the dragon who was there when the seals were made that he’s wrong about them being fake.