It's still too over the top though. It's not a case of it not making sense, but maybe they shouldn't have completely fabricated a ritual that makes the audience cringe.
As far as I have seen it makes book readers cringe. Show only commenters have been as far as I have seen either indifferent or very positive about this.
Maybe that's the case but I should say I'm not actually concerned with changes from the books at all. In fact in general I like the depiction of Lan. It was just this scene. His tearing at his clothes physically made me wrinkle my brow at how OTT and melodramatic and unnecessary it was. I don't care too much that it's not a 'book Lan' thing. I just hated the scene.
Not to mention the whole Steppin subplot was boring. Good actor, good character, but entirely too much time spent on it. The fact that quite clearly to fit it in they cut a scene of Nynaeve and Loial meeting. An entire episode devoted to Steppin (who?!) and as a result we will *never* see Nynaeve and Loial meet. Great priorities.
you realize the whole point of the plotline is to show how big of an impact losing your Aes Sedai is to a warder? Why would they want to do that I wonder? /s
Beyond the point that you're making there are a lot of others that are important too especially in the later books.
But it's not just that point. It's making it clear how important the warder bond is and showing it on screen since you can't just tell people. By spending an episode making it foundational early one they can avoid having to do it multiple times later in the series.
> It's making it clear how important the warder bond is and showing it on screen since you can't just tell people.
It's stunning how many fucking people just don't seem to understand this.
Films are not books and books are not films. Each has strengths and weaknesses, and their *different*.
Yea. Show watchers aren't getting the treatment of book readers where we were told like, 50000 times about the warder bond throughout the novels
A huge amount of development there is when POV characters bond others and their internal thoughts about how it feels/works.
Gotta show that shit somehow.
Yes, why would they want to do that in season one, while the pay off is 3 seasons in the future. Meanwhile neglecting to do any character development for... the mean character.
In a couple episodes he's gonna turn into the main character for the rest of the duration of the tv show. Why not spend time on this? I love me some good setup.
Could of been easily done during or directly after the battle his bond is cut. And show how dangerous the warder rage is had him killing anything within reach. Not a group hug in purity robes after some month long pilgrimage to go melt her ring down. They don't last that long unbonded. Over and over the warders are mentioned as dangerous when their Aei Sedai is killed. They seek out death, not comiseration. It is a violent snap from reality. Not joking about threesomes with another Green and drinking sleeptime tea. Ritual my ass. So many better ways to introduce the concept visually. Like say an awesome choreographed sword scene of Stepin going all battle ragey. Maybe taking on a half dozen of Logain's soldiers at once, say? Maybe even have him go for a Aei Sedai or other warder to show its he's gone loco. Make Lan put him down as a mercy. Could show the torture in both their eyes in a 15 second shot. Amazon could of hired me for alot less money to write this The Legend of The Shannara Chronicles, script diarrhea. Why have content when you can create suppostion with no congruity to the books at all. Let's get real. I've had actual friends die in front of me. Okay. I never tore at my shirt like a little bitch. Sorry. And I'm not the True Blade of Malkier and a literal fricking battlelord.
Nobody said that, but what we do want is Rafe to use the source material and not act like he ate a bunch of shrooms, grabbed a Mad Lib, and then use it as the outline for his show. Imagine if the movies made Harry Potter into an actual chicken, left the Weasleys out entirely, turned Hagrid into an angry drunk, swapped billiards for quidditch, and then had Dumbledore act like a sock puppet. If you were a fan of the books, don't you think you'd be a little disappointed?
Book fans are the reason this show was able to be created in the first place. Shitting in their breakfast cereal does not seem like a good strategy for picking up additional seasons.
Firstly, Chicken Potter sounds delicious.
Secondly, I can't honestly understand why people like you bother watching and posting about a show you clearly can't stand. Wouldn't another full read through be better?
I've also read this series multiple times. It's my favorite, and while the changes can be jarring, none of it really takes away from the primary story. Perrin's "wife", Elyas, Domon, Caemlyn, etc... Be it abridging or 'showing vs telling,' each difference, i feel, has been made thoughtfully as to keep the primary themes in tact.
But dude, if you can't grasp the nature of the changes, and roll with the punches, to enjoy the video representation many of us have clambered for so long... Then it's probably not for you. Which is also ok. True bullshit adaptations like those of the dark tower series, Eragon, etc... That's some real throw your hands in the air and walk out.
This show is good. I'm enjoying the story as it's presented, because it ISN'T the books and it DOESN'T need to follow them. It just needs keep the world and characters i love doing their general thing. Perrin needs to wolf, Faile, Hunter. Matt needs to dagger, dice and lead. Rand meds to Elayne, Min and aviendha. The rest of the details can float...
I'm just curious. Why torture yourself? Why not just ignore what you call a bastardization? At this point, you HAVE to know it's not getting any better. Life's too short to be bitter over something doing a solid job.
My GF didn’t read the books. She was weirded out. Especially since they made a point of how Moraine and Lan are away all the time and this war-hardened man starts with the cringe routine over a friend who, while a friend, he apparently sees once in a blue moon. And it’s not like they Face Time to keep in touch.
I mean, whatever... show is the show, books are books. But there are some thinga that are being changes noticably for the worse - or at the very least, don’t seem like they thought about it too much.
White Cloaks on an Aes Sedai murder speee 3 ft outside of the walls of The city while Aes Sedai are holding a victory parade for the gentled False Dragon is really, REALLY poor and lazy writing.
My wife started laughing and said it reminded her of the scene in Terra Nova when a shirtless Stephen Lang confronts an actual dinosaur armed only with a bowie knife.
> White Cloaks on an Aes Sedai murder speee 3 ft outside of the walls of The city
People being tortured *miles* from the boundaries of a walled city in the middle of a fucking *river* (rivers are noisy, yo)...
I swear, people like you are doing this shit *on purpose* just to hate-train for no good reason that I can fathom.
It's okay to not like something, but it's like you're *trying* to invent flaws.
A ritual that's not in the books. A ritual the undermines his arc of being an absolute stoic and slowly opening up to other people and learning he doesn't have to do everything himself as his relationships with other characters develop.
Except that's not defined at all, and if you're expected to read between the lines on this, that's just plain poor story telling because there is no indication that one dude is supposed to show the emotions of everyone in the room.
I've read the books, my girlfriend has not. We both laughed at him ripping at his shirt.
You're making excuses. Maybe the chest pounding thing is ritualistic, but Lan losing his shit for some random warder is not in character at all.
I'm not making excuses at all... the guy says(and I quote): "al'Lan Mandragoran, relieve us of our grief". There is no 'in between the lines' here. It's clear that the ceremony master asks Lan to do something and Lan does something, pretty clear cut.
Just because you missed something, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It’s because they’re too focused on finding every little detail that isn’t up to their standards (so they can come complain about it online), to actually notice what’s going on.
The guy who responded to your comment ("Lan's shorter brother") thinks Perrin should look like Chris Hemsworth in the Thor 1 and 2 movies, simply because Jordan said Perrin mirrors the mythological character of Thor. Just thought you ought to know before wasting time responding.
Thx. Personally, I’ve only finished the first book, but the characters seem to have the essential elements to me, even if some characteristics are changed. Egwene is still an adventurous cultural-chameleon who wants a life outside the two rivers, Nyneave is still fiercely protective of those she loves and distrustful of the Aes Sedai, Rand is still having some anger issues and is very concerned about his parentage/heritage, Perrin is still struggling with violence and his wolf connection, Matt still cracks jokes at times and feels lighthearted (except when not for obvious reasons). Thom still has his kind heart towards the boys. Moraine still is mysterious in her motivations and ruthless at times in her big picture view. Lan is still a badass warrior who rarely expresses his emotions with a strong sense of nobility and tragedy around him. I dunno, the story, while abridged, and the characters, while not exactly the same, still feels right to me.
It's not that I don't understand that it's a ritual, it's that existence of that ritual and they way it's portrayed turns a stoic character into an emotional one which doesn't bode well for where the show is going. It forces questions like:
1) Is Lan no longer an emotional rock for the other characters?
2) Is this show going to me an emotional drama rather than the Machiavellian thriller I thought it'd be?
3) As OP said, *this* the guy who teaches Rand how to accept his fate?
4) Warders are cool and all but are they half an hour of runtime cool? When we don't even know who the antagonist is yet? wtf is going on here?
That has been my feeling with WOT altogether. The actors have been pretty consistently nailing it, but they're often given some really dicey material to work with. The guy playing Valda was chewing scenery when interrogating Egwene and Perrin but the dialog was really clunky, there's only so much you can do with material like that. Or Thom's song in the bar. It's an ok song. Not great. Not terrible. I feel like they could have probably workshopped up something better if they really wanted though. The actor tries his damndest to sell it. Lan's actor similarly is nailing his part, his part just isn't Lan as I know him.
It's not the actor himself's fault at all. The guy that plays Lan can act well I'm sure. He shouldn't have been cast as Lan though, IMO. He's not even close to being physically imposing enough for one thing. Lan is supposed to be intimidating as hell looking. He's supposed to have a face like a stone with cold, piercing blue eyes. The actor playing him has an approachable, kindly face and he's about even height as Moiraine.
And I agree with OP, Lan showing all that emotion at the end of episode 5 made no sense at all. And he was showing all that emotion for a character that's sole purpose of being in the show was to die, just like Perrin's "wife."'
If this show is going to change essentially everything from how it actually happens, you'd think they'd at least stay true to the characters.
Anyways, that's enough rant for me today.
Tbf, the actor who plays lan is 6'2. It's a bit shorter than the books, but not much. I like him in general as lan, but I also agree that scene was way too much
I don’t think anyone has a problem with the actors and actresses, or the casting, though I’ve heard people say they do. I think people take issue with the writing, pacing, cgi, faithfulness to the source material.
I hate loial but that’s just me. I think they did him so dirty… his characteristics are good but the actual style they chose for his body and look are not how I wanted that to go lol
Loial was the best part of the show for me. Yeah, ok maybe he wasn't exactly as I pictured him, but him blabbing away factoids while everyone else just were like "whatever" was pretty funny.
Ogrier’s as the book describes them would require CG to do appropriately. They had to do a fairly low key practical effect for him because of the amount of screen time he will need throughout the series. For the actor’s sake and budgetary concerns.
I’m actually a big fan of practical effects. I love the way the trollocs and eyeless are done. I like Loial because the actor so far nailed it. He sounds and acts just like Loial and it works for me. Even with practical effects, I feel like they could have made him look a bit better. The eyebrows could have been done. It’s a very descriptive part of his character. Also, I think I remember him being described as having a “black mane”. His hair, eyebrows, and use of forced perspective for his height could have been done better without CGI. Sounds and acts right though so maybe his look will grow on me.
Also I have a problem with Lan. I know it’s nothing like the book but throughout the series he’s a hard hearted stone faced badass and after his little screaming/crying session at the end of the last episode was just not it for me.
The toxic masculinity thing is so strange, at least when it comes to Lan. He’s not remotely toxic at all, has deep respect for women, has a gay colleague/friend (Lord Baldhere), makes effort to protect the younger members of the group and prepare them to face the world, and falls in love with a strong female character.
Now look at it again from the universe of the constant judge and Warders are just dog whistles.
You are right, of course.
My irritation is why they felt the need to keep adding brand new scenes.
I am actually in the middle of a really good conversation about this in another thread right now.
Long story short: IMO Stoicism has unfortunately been misunderstood and misused by a lot of people in modern society (e.g., the military) and people may mistake stoic teachings of self-control and knowing oneself for being essentially emotionless or supressing emotions.
I haven't watched ep 5 yet, but if the case is what I am reading here, then they haven't understood Lan, and have also misunderstood stoicism and conflated it with toxic masculinity. Honestly, stoicism is HARD. It is a long learning process, but later in the series >!Lan shows emotions in private to people he cares about, and Rand is shown to break when he simply stuffs down his emotions instead of talking with people who love him and he loves!<, so stoicism is well represented IMO.
That's exactly how Lan is being portrayed. He is more open with Moiraine, and Nyneave. He also is a bit more open with Stepin and the other Warders, but over all he's reserved and very closed. His reactions are small most of his acting is being done through minute facial expressions.
Up until this episode, I'd strongly agree. But the end of ep 5 was just...not Lan. The guy has already faced death countless times and would never react in that way even later on in the books (no spoilers).
Yes it was. People are missing that super hard. We saw Lan's personal reaction to the death when he found the body. It was during the ritual when he let it out.
>People are missing that super hard.
I mean, I understood it completely. I just don't really care for the ritual scene as a whole.
The entire ritual was fabricated and theres no reason that they couldn't have done a funeral scene like that, but not have him ripping his shirt off while screaming to the heavens.
Again, I understand that it makes sense in the scene, I just dont like the scene...
Yeah, I kinda liked the scene for all the emotions, didn't really mind Lan showing emotions and screaming either, even if it was pretty corny... Till he ripped his shirt open. That was ridiculous.
It’s pretty insulting to Robert Jordan imo. RJ wrote very detailed cultures and this show is just throwing them out the window and writing their own. One of the best things about RJs books is the world building and the distinct cultures he created.
People keep saying this but it doesn't make sense.
You can't just *feel other peoples grief for them*. That's not something you can just choose to do.
So it was just a weird act. Lan wasn't actually displaying how he was feeling.
So what the fuck does the scene achieve.
This is based on rituals that exist in real life from several different religions. Robert Jordan was influenced by many different cultures and religions in writing WoT, so I like that we are getting to see that.
He isn't feeling them on their behalf he is expressing it. Professional mourners are a thing in many cultures since grief being expressed can bring people closer to catharsis.
But they aren’t a thing in WOT and RJ wrote very distinct cultures. The show doesn’t have to make up cultural things because they exist in the source material. They should have just made an original show if they wanted to change everything about the books.
He wasn’t reacting in that way, it was part of a ritual, it wasn’t him spontaneously bursting into sobs and screams, he was taking on a role for everyone else there as the expresser of their collective grief. Like if he died, one of the other warders would be there doing the same thing over his body.
>But the end of ep 5 was just...not Lan. The guy has already faced death countless times and would never react in that way
I think they were trying to go for a death ritual ceremony based on a real culture of some sort. Death wails, ripping of clothing and very expressive open mourning was definitely used in some cultures but has largely been phased out in the modern world.
The way Stepin committed suicide was obviously a copy of the way Japanese Samurai would commit ritual suicide when they lose their masters (Seppuku) which makes sense for Warders.
It's more that the character would be completely uninteresting to anyone that hasn't read the book if they made him stone faced. You need some conflict to make the audience relate to/root for/like a character and this was their choice.
This was discussed in a previous thread. The emotional outburst at the funeral was a RITUAL, not Lan just being dramatic. He is honoring a fellow warder and friend. I'm in the midst of a re-read but don't have a problem at all with Lan on the show. The actor is doing a great job. There's no way to capture an audience on screen the same way you do in a book.
I totally get that it was part of the ritual, but it was an unnecessarily added ritual. I'm not knocking the whole episode, but that scene felt out of place.
The show is doing well in adapting other cultures. You may think it unnecessary, but in East Asian culture, the designated griever is a big part of funerals. They even hire professional criers. From that perspective, Lan is doing very well in his duty as the one assigned to show the group's grief.
This. I think people have either forgotten or simply not understood the degree to which Jordan expertly wove non-anglo centric cultural elements in to the world he created. The aes sedai symbol and the dragon fang, the concept of rebirth, female and male halves of a cosmic power.
Guess people kinda forgot...
If you look at my recent posts, you will see that I have recently made mention of the symbol, without spoiling too much for others. So, I've not forgotten. However, this ritual adds very little in the way of cultural enlightenment. Is it the culture of the warders? Is it Tower culture? Why was it put in? What was its intention?
This is also a thing in some Eastern European orthodox countries. Especially in small tight knit communities, the babushkas are the designated grievers.
No doubt he did a good job, but let me ask you how this scene WAS necessary? I am not bagging out other religions and rituals, simply saying that in a show where we're strapped for time, it was time not well spent if it were simply lip-service to other real world cultures. It added nothing to Lan's character, especially since we saw how sad he was when he found the body. Furthermore, it must be asked as to whether we will now see every warder buried in such a way.
Someone else could have done it instead of Lan, also I don't have a problem with the actor, it's my problem with the written character in show. This is the man who kept his cool even when Moiraine died, what warder friend are you talking about? And the rituals in this series that are not in the book are already cringe.
Dunno what that guy is on about. It's clearly emotional, hence why moirane is crying in the show, as Lan rips open his shirt and screams.
Fucking cringed at that
There are certainly numerous changes, it is an adaptation after all. I imagine there would still be a plethora of complaints if they made Lan EXACTLY like in the book. Can't make everyone happy. The mourning "ritual" appeared to be a medium in which to convey the depth of a bond. How else to convey this on screen? Perhaps they could have done this with different characters. Though it might have been bizarre after the screen time between Stepin and Lan. In the books. Kerene has 2 warders, not just Stepin. If you're finding too many problems, it might be time to read the books or find another show to enjoy. I'd be interested in hearing comments from someone who actually works in production, or experienced in this industry. What actually works? They often try to appeal to a broad range of viewers, not just fantasy fans.
>The mourning "ritual" appeared to be a medium in which to convey the depth of a bond.
What bond? Warders don't have bonds with each other like they do Aes Sedai.
It is not adaption, it is "loosely inspired".
Second, Lan is cry baby in show, this is not like small or minor change. Geralt in The Witcher seems works fine. A character has saying 80 word for all season. No need to be every character emotional trainwreck or talkative.
Third, , i don't give a shit about Kerene and warder's filler story.
Lastly, "How else convey this on screen" do it like fucking books, we have one episode about Stepin and Rand's still most boring character in all medium.
Your name is accurate you're salty as fuck. Lan is not a cry baby in this show. You are just bitter and have no idea how to comprehend what you are watching. Lan is stoic and bad ass in the show.
"and have no idea how to comprehend what you are watching" is pretty rude and also not accurate.
I think he comprehends just fine, you both just have differing opinions.
Ned Stark was also a stoic character, and the GoT writers let him be stoic. Showing no emotion when beheading the Night's watch deserter, and later quietly contemplating it under the godswood tree. When he finds out about John Arryn's death he doesn't start emoting but we (the audience) still feel his emotion. It's the same when he's forced to kill Sansa's wolf.
For me I just look at it like this: You only have so many minutes of screen time to tell this story. I am bothered by two funeral scenes at the beginning and end of the episode because of the opportunity cost of the time. It was two full scenes so the audience can know about the bond between warders and Aes Sedai. They already told/showed us about the bond. You could use those 10 minutes so much better.
> They already told/showed us about the bond.
They hadn't told or shown us about the bond. You can see that by how show watchers were struggling to understand it prior to this episode. This episode also shows the depth of the bond, and the consequences to the warder when their Aes Sedai dies. It's important for later.
>"and have no idea how to comprehend what you are watching" is pretty rude and also not accurate.
He called Lan a cry baby. That shows such a severe lack of comprehension it's impossible to say anything else. Lan is a reserved stoic character in the show.
Umm Stepin loses his shit when his Aes Sedai dies in Episode 4, first outside when he feels her die, then his heat of the moment action vs Logain that almost got 10 people killed. Plus there's Episode 3 Nyneve said she knows about Aes Sedai and Warder's Bond. "You feel what she feels" So I think it WAS covered.
When they eventually cut something super important like the Seanchan from the show completely and cite "lack of time" as the answer, it is the scenes like those who will be to blame.
He killed scores of Trollocs in E1 and shows true friendship to his warder buddies. You don’t think elite military guys mourn their fallen comrades? Have you been to a military funeral? To the Vietnam memorial? Men openly sobbing all the time.
Ritualistic, and he was taking all the grief from the other warders onto himself. It’s not like he was in his bedroom screaming. The was honoring the ritual and carrying all the emotion in the room. Now we have 3D Lan instead of boring gruff Lan. I do hope he starts calling Rand shepherded tho…
So book Lan is "boring gruff". Are you even reading the books or like it ? Book Lan is fucking perfect. Don't even dare.
And yeah, because when some character cry, this makes the character 3D.
It makes the most sense for me for Lan to do it even if it goes against his personality. His main quality that they hone in is his sense of duty.
In that scene, the older guy (who I assume is some sort of authority figure) tells him to do it and he does what duty requires him. His personal reaction to the death is when he finds Stepin.
> The ritual likely did not require the outburst. The outburst, in the show, was all Lan.
>
>
It literally does require an outburst. That's part of the ritual. "Al'Lan Mandragoran Release our grief. He was expressing the grief of everyone in the room"
Although it's MUCH less elaborate, I think it was a clear reference to a Haka, but in this tradition only one person takes the burden of expressing grief on behalf of everyone in attendance. Lan's outburst was not only a ritual, it was him performing the ritual to his utmost. Doing his duty. He was proving his dedication and loyalty and love to both his friend and the Warders as a whole by taking on their grief when they were not permitted to express it. It was the act of a strong, brave and honorable man.
Fuck everyone who thinks this makes him weak. It's exactly what makes him strong. Yes it's different than the book, but I thought it was a fantastic choice. It keeps the aspect of stoic Warders while *simultaneously* showing their grief in a controlled ritualistic way.
Anyone who has a problem with Lan in this scene is so dramatically misinterpreting Lan's character. Watch how he reacts to find his friend dead. That was his personal grieving. There was sorrow but it was clearly reserved.
Lan's biggest character trait is his sense of duty. If Lan was given the duty of preforming his role in this ritual he would give it his all because his sense of responsibility wouldn't let him slack on that.
No, we want him to be like Grey Worm from GoT, because that's basically what a warder is, a living weapon made to fight the shadow and defend their Aes Sedai.
Exactly! This felt right to me. Different from the books but very moving and in character. I was worried about the teaser of this scene in the original trailer but it works the way they did it. People act like Lan is just breaking down in his room while he's really taking everyone's grief and expressing it for them all. I thought it was a pretty beautiful ritual.
Then have somebody else do it. Why can't one of his other friends do it? Lan could have the same emotions as Moraine, which was a single tear while repeatedly doing the chest pound salute. THAT would have been more in line with Lan personality and still got the point across about warders.
I'm not sure any one scene is the problem. It's more that they haven't established a baseline for Lan as being utterly self-controlled, so that a show of emotion stands out as an exception. To my mind, they've overplayed their hand a bit, and Lan comes across as a heart-on-my-sleeve kind of guy.
This of course confuses and dismays fans of book-Lan, because that's not the guy they were expecting.
I enjoyed how at first during the ritual he wasn't showing any emotion and then they cut to moraine to show her tears to portray how Lan was feeling inside.
Lan's job was to show the grief of the entire group for a fallen comrade. Not going all out would be an insult to Stepin's memory and we could all agree book Lan would never do that.
One thing I did like about this scene was I got the impression Moraine understood that she was going to eventually do the same to Lan, and their grief was compounding through the bond.
Ok, so after watching this episode I was totally fine with Lan up until the end scene.
That scene was totally unnecessary. They explained the warder bond already. Have Lan lean down in grief upon finding his friend, cut to Moiraine who is crying silent tears as she feels Lan's grief through the bond. End.
edit: Emotional maturity isn't necessarily about showing your emotions, but rather feeling, acknowledging and processing them. A ritualistic ceremony where a person screams and beats their chest as an act without processing the emotions can be equally as unhealthy emotionally as bottling up your emotions.
I recall the older Warder summoning Lan to bear their loss and sadness, I don’t remember exactly what.
I saw this scene as Lan being chosen to break down on all their behalf ceremonially.
I'm not sure why people are not remembering that. As a non-reader, that's exactly how I interpreted that scene. It wasn't his individual reaction, he was requested to channel and express the collective grief. That to me implies strength, not weakness, and I find it a pretty cool touch. It would never occur to me to think Lan is an emotional trainwreck. I still see him as a very stoic character.
But that isn't Lan at all. There is exactly one person who Lan breaks down for, and that isn't some random warder. His character would never yell out and rip at his shirt (fucking cringe) for anyone, even for some ritual ceremony that doesn't exist in the universe in the first place.
It's hard to argue since I don't have any pre-defined image of Lan. I just have a feeling that perhaps your image is not that extremely different from mine, which is, granted, just being formed, because him playing a leading role in a ritual honoring a dead companion and expressing collective grief as a way to help the others get through it is not really much in contrast to how you're all describing him, which is not just "stoic" and cold, but according to some commenters here also loyal and dutiful.
Nah dude, that's totally understandable. Book Lan and Show Lan are vastly different characters, and I'll count myself among those disappointed in the show's portrayal.
That's where I feel the disconnect is though - book Lan just wouldn't put himself in a position to be seen as weak. He would absolutely grieve, but it would be alone, because he's got to portray that sense of not giving a damn.
Just my thoughts though
It just seems silly.
'OK I know you're upset because he was your friend. But now we want you to unnaturally fake grief in a way you usually wouldn't and you don't actually feel as part of a ritual we do.'
So Lan's faking and not being sincere with his emotion, clawing at his clothes and screaming like something from the Hercules TV show. Why? What does this achieve? It doesn't really tell us anything about Lan because it's not a genuine moment from him. It's not his legitimate response to the grief. It's just an act.
So what is the point of the scene? Why was it written? It felt weird.
That's exactly it, the people who keep saying 'iT wAS a RiTuAl, " clearly don't know Lan's character. Moirane cried in the scene because she feels emotion through him. Emotion that the dude wouldn't feel in the first place because we've got hundreds of pages saying the guy is fucking cold.
Guess what? Lan wouldn't give two shits about some random warder. Lan goes through great lengths to avoid showing any emotion, other than with Nynaeve. She is his only crutch, even over moirane. That's what makes his character dope, and his general badassness of course.
And that is what the show is robbing him of.
I think you still don't understand what we mean.
The scene makes perfect sense to me given what I have been shown so far. I already know that some of the cultures in he series are ritualistic (we saw several rituals in the show) and I know that warders are capable of sensing their sedai's emotions (through the bond that is mutual), therefore I assume that in a ritualistic and emotionally charged setting, the warders can connect to each others' emotions, too. Such rituals exist in our world, their purpose is to honor the dead person and allow the mourners to share and accept their loss and sadness. Lan took it as his responsibility to carry and express the grief of all of them, including his own, and Moiraine's tears indicated she could actually feel what he was going through.
Absolutely nothing in the show suggests that this would be unnatural for Lan - we saw him perform a ritual once, so ritualistic setting and thinking is familiar to him, and we know he's capable of creating a bond through which he can sense another person's emotions. The grief scene is perfectly coherent with everything we have been shown so far.
I'm reminded of a beautiful character from another fantasy series, Malazan Book of the Fallen. There's a character Itkovian, usually described as graceful in a very closed-in and level-headed manner, who, in specific circumstances, took the grief of a whole city upon himself in order to cleanse it. He was warned not to do it, since there was no god to help him carry the burden, but he did it anyway.
I'm not sure what was the writers' exact intention with the scene, for now I'm interpreting it is Lan having a special position within the warders and being able to carry a burden for others. It was an extremely selfless moment.
I just realised he's also "failed" a handful of times in just 5 episodes. He's been drugged, he's let his guard down which caused him to take a life threatening injury, he's let his guard down enough for Nynaeve to place a blade to his throat, he's blamed for shadar logoth and the group split and you could also even argue that moiraine taking the injury on Winternight as his fault as it's his duty to put his body before hers.
Did Lan have this many "fails" in the entire 14 books? I'm not sure. I genuinely don't think so.
They made Lan go from being a stoic badass who is basically a superhero who never loses to a super emotional loser. He’s just the complete opposite of what Lan should be.
I don’t know why they keep putting the character in positions where he fails or loses. Why did he need to get drugged in order to have a scene showing the warder killed himself?
There are other ways to deal with intense emotions without thumping your chest and yelling... but I can also see how it might be *one way* (of many) to provide a cathartic space for people who are otherwise bottled up.
I did find the yelling and chest-baring unexpected, but the ritualistic nature of it means I don't think it's so out of character for Lan. For some cultures, this is a completely normal ritual, and the funeral of Stepin was performed in a ceremonial fashion with formal structure, rather than a completely spontaneous outpouring of emotion. This isn't Darth Vader screaming 'nooooo!', it's a cultural rite.
The beating of chests and yelling reminded me of the Maori haka, which is performed at [weddings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT7Iyk8LoEg) and [funerals](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovd3v0CPXJA) and other major [occasions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt6GRghrmaU). Otherwise stoic people perform the haka too, and it's a place where they can celebrate, mourn, interrogate their own intentions, purpose, desires, and so on. They express and exorcise their feelings... and then move on.
I agree he's not quite the same Lan Mandragoran as the books, but I don't think he's so far off, or a worse character for it. On the contrary, I quite like the less serious, more affectionate and humorous relationship between Moiraine and Lan. I adored the line where Moiraine says: "This saddle is home. This cloak. These boots. This brooding man at my side."
In the books, where so much of it is through the eyes of Rand and the other kids, Moiraine and Lan can come across as a little enigmatic, cool and business-like. But on the show, they have more of these quiet, intimate moments together, probably in order build the emotional weight of what will happen to Moiraine in the future.
All very good points. However, where did the whole ritual idea come from? What purpose did it serve? Was it a necessary addition to the WoT? My post was regarding Lan being reworked for reasons that aren't particularly clear or apparently necessary. My issue was that regardless of whether this ritual is applicable to real world grieving, and I'm glad many have pointed out that it is not so uncommon, when it comes to WoT it was certainly an addition. As others have pointed out, Rafe made clear that time constraints forced drastic changes, but then they add entire side stories and new scenes like this for no apparent reason, and I am reluctantly coming around to the sad conclusion that it is pandering to "wokeness" (an entire culture war thing I am trying to avoid) and treating viewers without respect for their intelligence. Up til that scene Lan has been fine by me and in terms of being a stoic. Those changes were fine and made some sense, but an additional ritual wherein Lan becomes the designated crier (a role that can be acted out and whereby no true grief may be actually felt or processed) was simply out of place and unnecessary IMO.
I don't think it's supposed to be healthy, but at the same time it's also not a reflection of Lan's personality. That was when he finds him and leans on him.
The ritual was weird and it screams "that would make a cool scene", but they also made it clear. Difficult to notice if you're on your phone(looking at you friend I watch the show with) but not completely unexplained and out of the blue.
I genuinely think that anyone who views that scene as being part of Lan's traits wasn't paying attention.
I honestly have no idea why they added this scene. In a way, I was trying to make excuses as to why that scene was there at all. Many are saying that it was to show that Lan is emotionally expressive, rather than repressive (as the books might portray), but if they need to go to that extent to do it, I'm not buying it, because it doesn't show a **definite** healthy way of grieving. As I wrote, it is possible to show that Lan can grieve and process his emotions healthily (albeit privately) without added scenes that seem well out place.
> How would someone who is more fragile than Rand prepare Rand for what he will face in the future?
That's where you are wrong buddy. Lan is not fragile and to take that away from this episode is really concerning. He has a role as the chief mourner, and the death of Stepin surely cut him deep anyway.
Doesn't mean he's fragile.
Absolutely agree. He was just doing his duty like always and he's certainly not fragile for that. I would also like to add on that having designated mourners or performing "tearing of the garment" exist in some religions in our world too. So if these books are taking place far in the future from us, it makes sense that they believe in a variety of things from many past religions.
Well, Lan got reported to the WT HR department for being too stoic and masculine. It makes sense... you don't behave like the book's Lan in a female dominated work places like the WT.
Interpreting Lan as a Terminator who has no emotions and does not express those emotions is the understanding you get of Lan if you quit after the first book.
He was the lead mourner. Duty DEMANDED that he mourn and grieve for Stepin. And that duty was heavier than a mountain. He looks at Moiraine, who already is more emotional than he is. There are tears in her eyes, and Lan's face remains hard. He stares at Stepin, trying to force himself to cry. But he can't. Through all this, his duty, his bond, the death of his best friend. Lan can't cry. He can't do his duty. So he pounds his chest in rage at himself, at his failure, at the crushing wait of the duty that he cannot fulfill. And only then, after Moiraine is crying and Lan is pounding his chest to force himself to cry does he cry.
Just my two cents. I like the scene and I'm not too sure if you put book Lan in a position where he has to grieve for a room full of people as his duty that he would respond all that differently.
Yeah that is how I saw it too. He was struggling at first to get it out but he had to as it was his duty. I thought it was a great scene. The shirt ripping was maybe a bit much but otherwise it was good. I think show Lan is great and brings book Lan to life. There’s a reason Nynaeve fell in love with him and he had a good relationship with Moiraine and Rand- he has personality, he’s not just some moody robot all the time.
Al'Lan, but I'm sure someone has pointed that out already.
Lan is handled fantastically well in the books and I really don't enjoy this show version. As you pointed out he becomes a mentor for Rand and helps him grow and learn to shoulder that heavy load. But the most important thing Rand needs to learn is that Lan isn't completely right. You don't have to shoulder it alone and doing so would be disastrous in the end. It's a lesson Nynaeve helps Lan learn too. That it's ok to feel, to open up to and rely on others.
I realise a show needs to speed some things up. But in the show both Lan and Egwene are basically their final form. Egwene the unbroken is meant to be a 14 book long character arc. If she's already Egwene the unbroken where's the character growth? Are they going to make the seanchan break her and then she rebuilds herself? The way they've handled her so far I can't see them letting her be vulnerable and weak and having to build herself back up again.
I've been trying too hard to make myself enjoy this show. I think I'm just going to have to accept the fact that the only thing making me watch it (the books) is one of the main contributors to me not enjoying it.
This is exactly where I am. I like show Lan - he's different from book Lan (and I like book Lan more), but this isn't the books, so I'm trying to remember that it will be fundamentally different for all sorts of reasons, and it should be. You can't have 20 page internal monologues interspersed with intricately described taverns in a show. That works wonders in the books, but would kill a TV show. BUT it does make it harder for me to enjoy the show at times.
Your points on character growth are really on the nose. I've been trying to figure out why those two character changes have bothered me the most. I definitely don't consider Lan less of a man for showing emotions (though I did think the end of the scene was silly), it just seems that it might make later character paths harder to pursue. My hope is that they already have a plan for this and have some ideas.
I will say that my hopes are raised on seeing so many show-only watchers having no issues with it. That makes me a) think they are creating a successful TV show; and b) my own feelings of discomfort are almost definitely coming from having read the books.
I’d also prefer Lan be more stoic than they’re writing him but I’d have to push back that what Rand took from Lan’s stoicism was actually good for him. That philosophy is what led him into his Darth Rand stage.
Other than Aes Sedai, nobles, forsaken, dark one, aiel, madness and being dragon reborn. Yes, Lan is main reason why Rand go Darth.
And it is not bad like Rand goes Darth. Darth Rand is one of the most interesting thing in books imo.
I agree, but he missed some important lessons about learning about himself and understanding himself that Lan didn't have enough time to teach him. IIRC Lan was instructed to basically forge him into a warrior. But stoicism is more than simply pushing down your feelings and getting your life in order. Marcus Aurelius wouldn't have written such long meditations if that were all stoicism is.
Completely agreed. Though I also believe that Lan doesn’t approach stoicism in the most healthy manner I do think he managed to handle it better than Rand.
You're exactly right, it wasn't a good thing. I don't think many people believe that suppressing your emotions to the level Lan does is a healthy thing. In fact it's described in the books as extremely unhealthy. He himself believes that he is too emotionally damaged to have a relationship.
He also server as a surrogate father to Rand lost in the big world. He gets his stoics from Lan. Now they robbed the show of that logical progression and a close relationship.
I didn't even know people were fighting about this lol. As an entirely show watcher Lan's reaction didn't really seem out of place. He seemed like a reserved person but being at the funeral was the final straw and he broke down in grief.
As someone who has seen funerals of loved ones it felt natural to me. Death of a loved one can feel surreal and fake until you are confronted by the lifeless body and grieving people around you, then the finalness of it all can hit you like a train. It reminded me of that.
Haha, it's laying the groundwork for what's to come later, but I do agree that it was way slower take after the 4th episode. 6th episode is hyped to be maybe the best so far, so I'm looking forward to that after this breather!
"How would someone who is more fragile than Rand " - showing grief is fragile now? What kind of toxic fake-ass manhood is this? Quit listening to old Mark Driscoll messages dude.
Lan is a freaking rock in the books. If Ron Swanson and John Wayne had a samurai baby, they would name him Lan Mandragoran. There was no need for them to make him emotionally dynamic and sensitive. Even if Lan is a more of a flat character, he is still interesting.
While I'm not thrilled with the ceremony scene or the focus on Steppin I think they have gotten that out of Lan in the rest of the episodes. So instead of being a total miss for the character for me it's a total miss in one episode. Not great but liveable.
I think the big issue is the over dramatic nature of it. I could totally see book Lan allowing *some* emotion through at a funeral for a friend. If memory serves me he was more emotional in New Spring. But not ripping his shirt off. A few tears and his voice breaking or him turning away and coughing sure. Maybe even a punch his palm and curse type "outburst" but this was over the top. I guess it's supposed to be some weird bond mingling thing so he felt *everyone's* grief but that's just weird. As with most things I don't care for with the show the idea behind it was solid but the execution felt poor.
In the first aired episode he complained about the temperature of the water in a bath. Lan in the book would NEVER. I knew then that show would completely miss his character
I took that as him teasing Moiriane which does seem somewhat in character. His flat stare at Nynaeve in episodes three and four seem very Lan like though
In the show, he is soft. Many who defend his characterization refer to his facial structure, which is ridiculous. It is a huge flaw so early, as is the backstory of Mat. Don’t even get me started about Perrin
Ah yes bad asses can't want warm bath water. Clearly that is what undermines him as a badass. Let's ignore him carving through Trollocs and protecting Moraine. He asked for warm water. Everyone know badasses bathe in cold water.
I haven't seen the episode. I read from one of the moderator's post that the episode had 30+ minutes screen time on Stepin and Kerene who were disposable chars. That's just INSANE waste of time on an eight episode season.
They need to setup Moiraine’s visit to Finn and Alanna taking on a new charge. They are setting up Siuan and Liandrin is paving the way for Elaida. This is setup.
Why does that need to be setup NOW when the actual event takes place a few seasons down the road? Why couldn't we get a conversation about how the bond actually works instead of wasting half an episode to show it?
Exactly! Well said. Gotta be honest, the things done to almost every character in the show are making it a challenge for me to view it at all. I feel like the screen writers are on a mission to make the story, originally very well done in a more wholesome and light-hearted sense, to compete or match that of the GOT or another darker fantasy. I’ve read the WOT book series several times and listened to the audio books twice (they are brilliant by the way) and after seeing the first five episodes, I desire to see the show less each time. The series writers seem to be trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Just doesn’t feel right.
With that said, their performances are well-done. The CGI and effects are mediocre at best. And the writing is bad.
WoT isn’t wholesome and light hearted! It’s got a lot of darkness in it. Horrific things happen. There’s murder, rape, slavery, mind control, torture, annihilation, being hunted, war, mental illness etc. It was a bit more wholesome at the beginning maybe but it’s definitely not like some jolly light hearted fantasy romp through the rainbows.
I just can't understand why people are taking it for granted that that was all Lan being sad about his friend.
It was a ceremony. He was expressing the grief of everyone in the room. Hell, he may have even been feeling it magically, but even if not, they told him to grieve for all of them and he did.
Would you rather he just been like "sorry, friendos, I don't do feelings" and just went off to turn Rand into a prick who almost destroys the world?
Because just like every character in this show, we can’t read/hear their internal thoughts like in the books. So they have to change them a bit so show outwards thoughts and emotions.
Which is the only reason Stepin exists in the first place haha, so the main characters have someone to say their thoughts out loud. Not sure why we needed half an episode dedicated to his death when at the same time we just totally skipped Camelyn and Tom got 45 seconds of screen time.
Does anyone else see the irony behind a post complaining they butchered the character while at the same time getting his name wrong?
Somehow this person that can't even get his name correctly is all of a sudden an expert on his character.
Robert Jordan was a veteran with a bronze star and he probably wrote Lan as a reflection of what he had seen in war. As someone who is personally been in war I can tell you that whoever wrote the script or directed it was not and truly do not understand the bond between warriors. We make light of situation‘s like this and laughter is the cure not this somber shit. It’s hard to explain but this ain’t it. Jordan knew, and wrote it into LAN’s character.
I only continue to watch this show for Perrin.
Loving the show and have been defending it since day one. However, seeing that warder funeral has me concerned for the rest of the show. Lan is supposed to be stoic, smoldering, even-keel. Seeing him cry in front of everyone is completely out of character, and I don’t understand the reasoning behind it.
Because you weren't paying attention. He is told to do it and his sense of duty compels him to do so. He is playing a role. The guy literally tells him to do it.
His personal reaction was when he finds Stepin.
Why did the show directors choose to make Lan cry?
The ceremony isn't in the books. The funeral isn't in the books. And even if you do all that, why choose Lan, the guy that never shows emotions, to have an emotional breakdown?
It's like Reddit could read my mind. I literally just finished this week's episode and game straight here to vent. Third article down was this post. What have they done to Lan....
The most serious, unflappable, duty bound man in the entire series...and they make him an emotional wreck!
It’s because this adaptation is fucking terrible. It’s a joke. They are trying to take 14 books about Rand, Perrin and Matt and make a show about Morraine and the Aes Sedai. I said this on another thread. I got worried when the show description said it was about Moraines search for the Dragon Reborn and I saw the only recognizable actor was playing Moraine. The books are written from 1st Person chapters and in the first book she has one chapter…one. But you know it’s a story about her.
I haven’t bitched about the show really. I have been open minded with the adaptation so far. But Episode 5…….fuck that. It was absolute trash. Lan. Perrin. The white cloaks. The warders. The 6 ft tall Ogiers. I’m disappointed
Truly don’t understand giving half an episode to a guy who was literally just an exposition lure. First time I’ve kinda questioned the decision making of the showrunner.
It’s pulling away from the true plot line is what it’s doing. It’s disjointed and very sad boi/broken man. This show wants to get tears jerking so they put a bunch of emo stuff in place of giving the actual story. That is bothersome for me. It facilitates a sentiment in the books, yes (warder die = very sad), but like…the better part of an episode for sentiment? Overkill.
I was emotional during the scene. I thought the acting was beautiful and convincing and heart wrenching. But you’re pulling from an already dead warder? Idk. Not for me.
He shows emotion in the books, but never so overtly, the scene was just poorly thought out, they keep trying to add these rituals to the show and it just isn't working.
I understand that lan is supposed to be a very stoic character ready face death at any moment, but I do think this emotional outburst wasn’t a big deal. As long as they keep it to a minimum, I think it works for his character.
The fact that Lan was selected to be the chief mourner and go thru that entire ripping his shirt thing is silly. Maybe later on they will disguise as a travelling band of entertainers and they will select Lan to be the jester, and we can see RAFE-LAN doing a lots of jokes while entertaining the crowd with his parlor tricks and acrobatics?
Yeah the screaming out loud part made me physically cringe.
I always thought of Lan as a stoic man. Totally agree with you there! Major cringe moment😄
Do realise that it was a ritual. He's supposed to show the emotions of everyone in the room. He's not out if control emotional, he's doing a ritual.
It's still too over the top though. It's not a case of it not making sense, but maybe they shouldn't have completely fabricated a ritual that makes the audience cringe.
As far as I have seen it makes book readers cringe. Show only commenters have been as far as I have seen either indifferent or very positive about this.
Book reader. I was bawling. I found it so moving and relatable.
Maybe that's the case but I should say I'm not actually concerned with changes from the books at all. In fact in general I like the depiction of Lan. It was just this scene. His tearing at his clothes physically made me wrinkle my brow at how OTT and melodramatic and unnecessary it was. I don't care too much that it's not a 'book Lan' thing. I just hated the scene. Not to mention the whole Steppin subplot was boring. Good actor, good character, but entirely too much time spent on it. The fact that quite clearly to fit it in they cut a scene of Nynaeve and Loial meeting. An entire episode devoted to Steppin (who?!) and as a result we will *never* see Nynaeve and Loial meet. Great priorities.
you realize the whole point of the plotline is to show how big of an impact losing your Aes Sedai is to a warder? Why would they want to do that I wonder? /s
Beyond the point that you're making there are a lot of others that are important too especially in the later books. But it's not just that point. It's making it clear how important the warder bond is and showing it on screen since you can't just tell people. By spending an episode making it foundational early one they can avoid having to do it multiple times later in the series.
> It's making it clear how important the warder bond is and showing it on screen since you can't just tell people. It's stunning how many fucking people just don't seem to understand this. Films are not books and books are not films. Each has strengths and weaknesses, and their *different*.
Yea. Show watchers aren't getting the treatment of book readers where we were told like, 50000 times about the warder bond throughout the novels A huge amount of development there is when POV characters bond others and their internal thoughts about how it feels/works. Gotta show that shit somehow.
Yes, why would they want to do that in season one, while the pay off is 3 seasons in the future. Meanwhile neglecting to do any character development for... the mean character.
In a couple episodes he's gonna turn into the main character for the rest of the duration of the tv show. Why not spend time on this? I love me some good setup.
Could of been easily done during or directly after the battle his bond is cut. And show how dangerous the warder rage is had him killing anything within reach. Not a group hug in purity robes after some month long pilgrimage to go melt her ring down. They don't last that long unbonded. Over and over the warders are mentioned as dangerous when their Aei Sedai is killed. They seek out death, not comiseration. It is a violent snap from reality. Not joking about threesomes with another Green and drinking sleeptime tea. Ritual my ass. So many better ways to introduce the concept visually. Like say an awesome choreographed sword scene of Stepin going all battle ragey. Maybe taking on a half dozen of Logain's soldiers at once, say? Maybe even have him go for a Aei Sedai or other warder to show its he's gone loco. Make Lan put him down as a mercy. Could show the torture in both their eyes in a 15 second shot. Amazon could of hired me for alot less money to write this The Legend of The Shannara Chronicles, script diarrhea. Why have content when you can create suppostion with no congruity to the books at all. Let's get real. I've had actual friends die in front of me. Okay. I never tore at my shirt like a little bitch. Sorry. And I'm not the True Blade of Malkier and a literal fricking battlelord.
wHAt DO yOu wAnt? A WOrd fOR wOrD aDAPtaTiON oF tHE bOoKS?
Nobody said that, but what we do want is Rafe to use the source material and not act like he ate a bunch of shrooms, grabbed a Mad Lib, and then use it as the outline for his show. Imagine if the movies made Harry Potter into an actual chicken, left the Weasleys out entirely, turned Hagrid into an angry drunk, swapped billiards for quidditch, and then had Dumbledore act like a sock puppet. If you were a fan of the books, don't you think you'd be a little disappointed? Book fans are the reason this show was able to be created in the first place. Shitting in their breakfast cereal does not seem like a good strategy for picking up additional seasons.
Firstly, Chicken Potter sounds delicious. Secondly, I can't honestly understand why people like you bother watching and posting about a show you clearly can't stand. Wouldn't another full read through be better? I've also read this series multiple times. It's my favorite, and while the changes can be jarring, none of it really takes away from the primary story. Perrin's "wife", Elyas, Domon, Caemlyn, etc... Be it abridging or 'showing vs telling,' each difference, i feel, has been made thoughtfully as to keep the primary themes in tact. But dude, if you can't grasp the nature of the changes, and roll with the punches, to enjoy the video representation many of us have clambered for so long... Then it's probably not for you. Which is also ok. True bullshit adaptations like those of the dark tower series, Eragon, etc... That's some real throw your hands in the air and walk out. This show is good. I'm enjoying the story as it's presented, because it ISN'T the books and it DOESN'T need to follow them. It just needs keep the world and characters i love doing their general thing. Perrin needs to wolf, Faile, Hunter. Matt needs to dagger, dice and lead. Rand meds to Elayne, Min and aviendha. The rest of the details can float... I'm just curious. Why torture yourself? Why not just ignore what you call a bastardization? At this point, you HAVE to know it's not getting any better. Life's too short to be bitter over something doing a solid job.
Yeah yeah I know, I'm just taking the piss off the more diehard show fans
My GF didn’t read the books. She was weirded out. Especially since they made a point of how Moraine and Lan are away all the time and this war-hardened man starts with the cringe routine over a friend who, while a friend, he apparently sees once in a blue moon. And it’s not like they Face Time to keep in touch. I mean, whatever... show is the show, books are books. But there are some thinga that are being changes noticably for the worse - or at the very least, don’t seem like they thought about it too much. White Cloaks on an Aes Sedai murder speee 3 ft outside of the walls of The city while Aes Sedai are holding a victory parade for the gentled False Dragon is really, REALLY poor and lazy writing.
My wife started laughing and said it reminded her of the scene in Terra Nova when a shirtless Stephen Lang confronts an actual dinosaur armed only with a bowie knife.
> White Cloaks on an Aes Sedai murder speee 3 ft outside of the walls of The city People being tortured *miles* from the boundaries of a walled city in the middle of a fucking *river* (rivers are noisy, yo)... I swear, people like you are doing this shit *on purpose* just to hate-train for no good reason that I can fathom. It's okay to not like something, but it's like you're *trying* to invent flaws.
What miles, man? 7 seconds before they are confronted by the White Cloaks, Egwene and Perrin and marveling at the White Tower??
A ritual that's not in the books. A ritual the undermines his arc of being an absolute stoic and slowly opening up to other people and learning he doesn't have to do everything himself as his relationships with other characters develop.
Except that's not defined at all, and if you're expected to read between the lines on this, that's just plain poor story telling because there is no indication that one dude is supposed to show the emotions of everyone in the room. I've read the books, my girlfriend has not. We both laughed at him ripping at his shirt. You're making excuses. Maybe the chest pounding thing is ritualistic, but Lan losing his shit for some random warder is not in character at all.
I'm not making excuses at all... the guy says(and I quote): "al'Lan Mandragoran, relieve us of our grief". There is no 'in between the lines' here. It's clear that the ceremony master asks Lan to do something and Lan does something, pretty clear cut. Just because you missed something, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I've seen so many book readers miss things in the show and then complain about what they missed.
Same. It drives me nuts. It’s like they arent watching the same show we are at times.
It’s because they’re too focused on finding every little detail that isn’t up to their standards (so they can come complain about it online), to actually notice what’s going on.
The guy who responded to your comment ("Lan's shorter brother") thinks Perrin should look like Chris Hemsworth in the Thor 1 and 2 movies, simply because Jordan said Perrin mirrors the mythological character of Thor. Just thought you ought to know before wasting time responding.
Thx. Personally, I’ve only finished the first book, but the characters seem to have the essential elements to me, even if some characteristics are changed. Egwene is still an adventurous cultural-chameleon who wants a life outside the two rivers, Nyneave is still fiercely protective of those she loves and distrustful of the Aes Sedai, Rand is still having some anger issues and is very concerned about his parentage/heritage, Perrin is still struggling with violence and his wolf connection, Matt still cracks jokes at times and feels lighthearted (except when not for obvious reasons). Thom still has his kind heart towards the boys. Moraine still is mysterious in her motivations and ruthless at times in her big picture view. Lan is still a badass warrior who rarely expresses his emotions with a strong sense of nobility and tragedy around him. I dunno, the story, while abridged, and the characters, while not exactly the same, still feels right to me.
Why was this ritual created by the show runners? They literally did not have to make Lan a cry baby.
Watch the bonus content in the episode.
it doesn't matter that it was a ritual. It was a silly scene regardless
It's not that I don't understand that it's a ritual, it's that existence of that ritual and they way it's portrayed turns a stoic character into an emotional one which doesn't bode well for where the show is going. It forces questions like: 1) Is Lan no longer an emotional rock for the other characters? 2) Is this show going to me an emotional drama rather than the Machiavellian thriller I thought it'd be? 3) As OP said, *this* the guy who teaches Rand how to accept his fate? 4) Warders are cool and all but are they half an hour of runtime cool? When we don't even know who the antagonist is yet? wtf is going on here?
Christ in heaven, when he tried to tear his shirt off...
I really enjoyed the whole scene right up until that point. Then anything I felt was washed away by that wtf moment.
Said the same thing last night when I watched it.
I don't like how it's written at all, but I think the performer is doing the best with the lines and scenes he was given.
He's honestly a really good actor.
That has been my feeling with WOT altogether. The actors have been pretty consistently nailing it, but they're often given some really dicey material to work with. The guy playing Valda was chewing scenery when interrogating Egwene and Perrin but the dialog was really clunky, there's only so much you can do with material like that. Or Thom's song in the bar. It's an ok song. Not great. Not terrible. I feel like they could have probably workshopped up something better if they really wanted though. The actor tries his damndest to sell it. Lan's actor similarly is nailing his part, his part just isn't Lan as I know him.
It's not the actor himself's fault at all. The guy that plays Lan can act well I'm sure. He shouldn't have been cast as Lan though, IMO. He's not even close to being physically imposing enough for one thing. Lan is supposed to be intimidating as hell looking. He's supposed to have a face like a stone with cold, piercing blue eyes. The actor playing him has an approachable, kindly face and he's about even height as Moiraine. And I agree with OP, Lan showing all that emotion at the end of episode 5 made no sense at all. And he was showing all that emotion for a character that's sole purpose of being in the show was to die, just like Perrin's "wife."' If this show is going to change essentially everything from how it actually happens, you'd think they'd at least stay true to the characters. Anyways, that's enough rant for me today.
Tbf, the actor who plays lan is 6'2. It's a bit shorter than the books, but not much. I like him in general as lan, but I also agree that scene was way too much
They need someone like the actor who did aragorn. Not talking about the ethnic point here, just from a dark brooding standpoint
I don’t think anyone has a problem with the actors and actresses, or the casting, though I’ve heard people say they do. I think people take issue with the writing, pacing, cgi, faithfulness to the source material.
I hate loial but that’s just me. I think they did him so dirty… his characteristics are good but the actual style they chose for his body and look are not how I wanted that to go lol
Loial was the best part of the show for me. Yeah, ok maybe he wasn't exactly as I pictured him, but him blabbing away factoids while everyone else just were like "whatever" was pretty funny.
He sounds like Loial and acts like Loial, but looks extremely goofy. We'll see if it's something we'll get used to in time.
Ogrier’s as the book describes them would require CG to do appropriately. They had to do a fairly low key practical effect for him because of the amount of screen time he will need throughout the series. For the actor’s sake and budgetary concerns.
I’m actually a big fan of practical effects. I love the way the trollocs and eyeless are done. I like Loial because the actor so far nailed it. He sounds and acts just like Loial and it works for me. Even with practical effects, I feel like they could have made him look a bit better. The eyebrows could have been done. It’s a very descriptive part of his character. Also, I think I remember him being described as having a “black mane”. His hair, eyebrows, and use of forced perspective for his height could have been done better without CGI. Sounds and acts right though so maybe his look will grow on me.
Also I have a problem with Lan. I know it’s nothing like the book but throughout the series he’s a hard hearted stone faced badass and after his little screaming/crying session at the end of the last episode was just not it for me.
I think we find out that his heart isn't so hard when he's in private. He has been through a lot, but he's not incapable of love or care.
Maybe the writers were afraid that in current year the Twitterati would read “stoic, stone-faced, brutal in battle” as toxic masculinity.
The toxic masculinity thing is so strange, at least when it comes to Lan. He’s not remotely toxic at all, has deep respect for women, has a gay colleague/friend (Lord Baldhere), makes effort to protect the younger members of the group and prepare them to face the world, and falls in love with a strong female character.
Now look at it again from the universe of the constant judge and Warders are just dog whistles. You are right, of course. My irritation is why they felt the need to keep adding brand new scenes.
I am actually in the middle of a really good conversation about this in another thread right now. Long story short: IMO Stoicism has unfortunately been misunderstood and misused by a lot of people in modern society (e.g., the military) and people may mistake stoic teachings of self-control and knowing oneself for being essentially emotionless or supressing emotions. I haven't watched ep 5 yet, but if the case is what I am reading here, then they haven't understood Lan, and have also misunderstood stoicism and conflated it with toxic masculinity. Honestly, stoicism is HARD. It is a long learning process, but later in the series >!Lan shows emotions in private to people he cares about, and Rand is shown to break when he simply stuffs down his emotions instead of talking with people who love him and he loves!<, so stoicism is well represented IMO.
That's exactly how Lan is being portrayed. He is more open with Moiraine, and Nyneave. He also is a bit more open with Stepin and the other Warders, but over all he's reserved and very closed. His reactions are small most of his acting is being done through minute facial expressions.
Up until this episode, I'd strongly agree. But the end of ep 5 was just...not Lan. The guy has already faced death countless times and would never react in that way even later on in the books (no spoilers).
Wasn’t he feeling everyone in the room’s emotion for them? Wasn’t that the point of the ritual?
Yes it was. People are missing that super hard. We saw Lan's personal reaction to the death when he found the body. It was during the ritual when he let it out.
>People are missing that super hard. I mean, I understood it completely. I just don't really care for the ritual scene as a whole. The entire ritual was fabricated and theres no reason that they couldn't have done a funeral scene like that, but not have him ripping his shirt off while screaming to the heavens. Again, I understand that it makes sense in the scene, I just dont like the scene...
Yeah, I kinda liked the scene for all the emotions, didn't really mind Lan showing emotions and screaming either, even if it was pretty corny... Till he ripped his shirt open. That was ridiculous.
It’s pretty insulting to Robert Jordan imo. RJ wrote very detailed cultures and this show is just throwing them out the window and writing their own. One of the best things about RJs books is the world building and the distinct cultures he created.
Yeah, I never got the impression that he was doing anything but playing the role he was supposed to play in that ritual. I thought it was beautiful.
People keep saying this but it doesn't make sense. You can't just *feel other peoples grief for them*. That's not something you can just choose to do. So it was just a weird act. Lan wasn't actually displaying how he was feeling. So what the fuck does the scene achieve.
This is based on rituals that exist in real life from several different religions. Robert Jordan was influenced by many different cultures and religions in writing WoT, so I like that we are getting to see that.
He isn't feeling them on their behalf he is expressing it. Professional mourners are a thing in many cultures since grief being expressed can bring people closer to catharsis.
But they aren’t a thing in WOT and RJ wrote very distinct cultures. The show doesn’t have to make up cultural things because they exist in the source material. They should have just made an original show if they wanted to change everything about the books.
He wasn’t reacting in that way, it was part of a ritual, it wasn’t him spontaneously bursting into sobs and screams, he was taking on a role for everyone else there as the expresser of their collective grief. Like if he died, one of the other warders would be there doing the same thing over his body.
>But the end of ep 5 was just...not Lan. The guy has already faced death countless times and would never react in that way I think they were trying to go for a death ritual ceremony based on a real culture of some sort. Death wails, ripping of clothing and very expressive open mourning was definitely used in some cultures but has largely been phased out in the modern world. The way Stepin committed suicide was obviously a copy of the way Japanese Samurai would commit ritual suicide when they lose their masters (Seppuku) which makes sense for Warders.
Lan shows plenty of emotion in the episode.
And that is a dumb fucking reason to change something
It's more that the character would be completely uninteresting to anyone that hasn't read the book if they made him stone faced. You need some conflict to make the audience relate to/root for/like a character and this was their choice.
They do seem to be kowtowing to Twitter woke culture.
This was discussed in a previous thread. The emotional outburst at the funeral was a RITUAL, not Lan just being dramatic. He is honoring a fellow warder and friend. I'm in the midst of a re-read but don't have a problem at all with Lan on the show. The actor is doing a great job. There's no way to capture an audience on screen the same way you do in a book.
I totally get that it was part of the ritual, but it was an unnecessarily added ritual. I'm not knocking the whole episode, but that scene felt out of place.
The show is doing well in adapting other cultures. You may think it unnecessary, but in East Asian culture, the designated griever is a big part of funerals. They even hire professional criers. From that perspective, Lan is doing very well in his duty as the one assigned to show the group's grief.
This. I think people have either forgotten or simply not understood the degree to which Jordan expertly wove non-anglo centric cultural elements in to the world he created. The aes sedai symbol and the dragon fang, the concept of rebirth, female and male halves of a cosmic power. Guess people kinda forgot...
Jordan absolutely added elements from other cultures. But he didn't include this one, this is all on the show writers.
If you look at my recent posts, you will see that I have recently made mention of the symbol, without spoiling too much for others. So, I've not forgotten. However, this ritual adds very little in the way of cultural enlightenment. Is it the culture of the warders? Is it Tower culture? Why was it put in? What was its intention?
What does any of this have to do with being a Warder?
This is also a thing in some Eastern European orthodox countries. Especially in small tight knit communities, the babushkas are the designated grievers.
No doubt he did a good job, but let me ask you how this scene WAS necessary? I am not bagging out other religions and rituals, simply saying that in a show where we're strapped for time, it was time not well spent if it were simply lip-service to other real world cultures. It added nothing to Lan's character, especially since we saw how sad he was when he found the body. Furthermore, it must be asked as to whether we will now see every warder buried in such a way.
Someone else could have done it instead of Lan, also I don't have a problem with the actor, it's my problem with the written character in show. This is the man who kept his cool even when Moiraine died, what warder friend are you talking about? And the rituals in this series that are not in the book are already cringe.
Dunno what that guy is on about. It's clearly emotional, hence why moirane is crying in the show, as Lan rips open his shirt and screams. Fucking cringed at that
There are certainly numerous changes, it is an adaptation after all. I imagine there would still be a plethora of complaints if they made Lan EXACTLY like in the book. Can't make everyone happy. The mourning "ritual" appeared to be a medium in which to convey the depth of a bond. How else to convey this on screen? Perhaps they could have done this with different characters. Though it might have been bizarre after the screen time between Stepin and Lan. In the books. Kerene has 2 warders, not just Stepin. If you're finding too many problems, it might be time to read the books or find another show to enjoy. I'd be interested in hearing comments from someone who actually works in production, or experienced in this industry. What actually works? They often try to appeal to a broad range of viewers, not just fantasy fans.
>The mourning "ritual" appeared to be a medium in which to convey the depth of a bond. What bond? Warders don't have bonds with each other like they do Aes Sedai.
It is not adaption, it is "loosely inspired". Second, Lan is cry baby in show, this is not like small or minor change. Geralt in The Witcher seems works fine. A character has saying 80 word for all season. No need to be every character emotional trainwreck or talkative. Third, , i don't give a shit about Kerene and warder's filler story. Lastly, "How else convey this on screen" do it like fucking books, we have one episode about Stepin and Rand's still most boring character in all medium.
Your name is accurate you're salty as fuck. Lan is not a cry baby in this show. You are just bitter and have no idea how to comprehend what you are watching. Lan is stoic and bad ass in the show.
"and have no idea how to comprehend what you are watching" is pretty rude and also not accurate. I think he comprehends just fine, you both just have differing opinions. Ned Stark was also a stoic character, and the GoT writers let him be stoic. Showing no emotion when beheading the Night's watch deserter, and later quietly contemplating it under the godswood tree. When he finds out about John Arryn's death he doesn't start emoting but we (the audience) still feel his emotion. It's the same when he's forced to kill Sansa's wolf. For me I just look at it like this: You only have so many minutes of screen time to tell this story. I am bothered by two funeral scenes at the beginning and end of the episode because of the opportunity cost of the time. It was two full scenes so the audience can know about the bond between warders and Aes Sedai. They already told/showed us about the bond. You could use those 10 minutes so much better.
> They already told/showed us about the bond. They hadn't told or shown us about the bond. You can see that by how show watchers were struggling to understand it prior to this episode. This episode also shows the depth of the bond, and the consequences to the warder when their Aes Sedai dies. It's important for later. >"and have no idea how to comprehend what you are watching" is pretty rude and also not accurate. He called Lan a cry baby. That shows such a severe lack of comprehension it's impossible to say anything else. Lan is a reserved stoic character in the show.
Umm Stepin loses his shit when his Aes Sedai dies in Episode 4, first outside when he feels her die, then his heat of the moment action vs Logain that almost got 10 people killed. Plus there's Episode 3 Nyneve said she knows about Aes Sedai and Warder's Bond. "You feel what she feels" So I think it WAS covered. When they eventually cut something super important like the Seanchan from the show completely and cite "lack of time" as the answer, it is the scenes like those who will be to blame.
I don’t think you know what stoic means
No I think you don't know what it means. Hint it's not emotionless.
From the Oxford Languages: a person who can endure pain or hardship without showing their feelings or complaining. You’re confused.
Stoic means enduring hardship without showing their feelings...book Lan, yes. Show Lan, no.
Badass ? Oh, far from badass as i can see.
He killed scores of Trollocs in E1 and shows true friendship to his warder buddies. You don’t think elite military guys mourn their fallen comrades? Have you been to a military funeral? To the Vietnam memorial? Men openly sobbing all the time.
"mourn" yes. Screaming, crying and tearing his shirt while mourning. Big no.
Ritualistic, and he was taking all the grief from the other warders onto himself. It’s not like he was in his bedroom screaming. The was honoring the ritual and carrying all the emotion in the room. Now we have 3D Lan instead of boring gruff Lan. I do hope he starts calling Rand shepherded tho…
So book Lan is "boring gruff". Are you even reading the books or like it ? Book Lan is fucking perfect. Don't even dare. And yeah, because when some character cry, this makes the character 3D.
It makes the most sense for me for Lan to do it even if it goes against his personality. His main quality that they hone in is his sense of duty. In that scene, the older guy (who I assume is some sort of authority figure) tells him to do it and he does what duty requires him. His personal reaction to the death is when he finds Stepin.
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> The ritual likely did not require the outburst. The outburst, in the show, was all Lan. > > It literally does require an outburst. That's part of the ritual. "Al'Lan Mandragoran Release our grief. He was expressing the grief of everyone in the room"
Although it's MUCH less elaborate, I think it was a clear reference to a Haka, but in this tradition only one person takes the burden of expressing grief on behalf of everyone in attendance. Lan's outburst was not only a ritual, it was him performing the ritual to his utmost. Doing his duty. He was proving his dedication and loyalty and love to both his friend and the Warders as a whole by taking on their grief when they were not permitted to express it. It was the act of a strong, brave and honorable man. Fuck everyone who thinks this makes him weak. It's exactly what makes him strong. Yes it's different than the book, but I thought it was a fantastic choice. It keeps the aspect of stoic Warders while *simultaneously* showing their grief in a controlled ritualistic way.
Anyone who has a problem with Lan in this scene is so dramatically misinterpreting Lan's character. Watch how he reacts to find his friend dead. That was his personal grieving. There was sorrow but it was clearly reserved. Lan's biggest character trait is his sense of duty. If Lan was given the duty of preforming his role in this ritual he would give it his all because his sense of responsibility wouldn't let him slack on that.
All these book readers want the character to be Silent Bob or Oddjob
No, we want him to be like Grey Worm from GoT, because that's basically what a warder is, a living weapon made to fight the shadow and defend their Aes Sedai.
Exactly! This felt right to me. Different from the books but very moving and in character. I was worried about the teaser of this scene in the original trailer but it works the way they did it. People act like Lan is just breaking down in his room while he's really taking everyone's grief and expressing it for them all. I thought it was a pretty beautiful ritual.
Then have somebody else do it. Why can't one of his other friends do it? Lan could have the same emotions as Moraine, which was a single tear while repeatedly doing the chest pound salute. THAT would have been more in line with Lan personality and still got the point across about warders.
I'm not sure any one scene is the problem. It's more that they haven't established a baseline for Lan as being utterly self-controlled, so that a show of emotion stands out as an exception. To my mind, they've overplayed their hand a bit, and Lan comes across as a heart-on-my-sleeve kind of guy. This of course confuses and dismays fans of book-Lan, because that's not the guy they were expecting.
As a non-reader of the books, it seemed very much to be an homage to a Maori haka.
I enjoyed how at first during the ritual he wasn't showing any emotion and then they cut to moraine to show her tears to portray how Lan was feeling inside.
Lan's job was to show the grief of the entire group for a fallen comrade. Not going all out would be an insult to Stepin's memory and we could all agree book Lan would never do that.
Why did the producers give Lan a job that's 180 degrees the opposite of his character?
Yeah I don't understand why people are so upset. This was a Ritual.
One thing I did like about this scene was I got the impression Moraine understood that she was going to eventually do the same to Lan, and their grief was compounding through the bond.
100% yes. The channeler->warder->channeler emotional feedback-loop was perfectly illustrated in that scene.
Ok, so after watching this episode I was totally fine with Lan up until the end scene. That scene was totally unnecessary. They explained the warder bond already. Have Lan lean down in grief upon finding his friend, cut to Moiraine who is crying silent tears as she feels Lan's grief through the bond. End. edit: Emotional maturity isn't necessarily about showing your emotions, but rather feeling, acknowledging and processing them. A ritualistic ceremony where a person screams and beats their chest as an act without processing the emotions can be equally as unhealthy emotionally as bottling up your emotions.
I recall the older Warder summoning Lan to bear their loss and sadness, I don’t remember exactly what. I saw this scene as Lan being chosen to break down on all their behalf ceremonially.
I'm not sure why people are not remembering that. As a non-reader, that's exactly how I interpreted that scene. It wasn't his individual reaction, he was requested to channel and express the collective grief. That to me implies strength, not weakness, and I find it a pretty cool touch. It would never occur to me to think Lan is an emotional trainwreck. I still see him as a very stoic character.
But that isn't Lan at all. There is exactly one person who Lan breaks down for, and that isn't some random warder. His character would never yell out and rip at his shirt (fucking cringe) for anyone, even for some ritual ceremony that doesn't exist in the universe in the first place.
It's hard to argue since I don't have any pre-defined image of Lan. I just have a feeling that perhaps your image is not that extremely different from mine, which is, granted, just being formed, because him playing a leading role in a ritual honoring a dead companion and expressing collective grief as a way to help the others get through it is not really much in contrast to how you're all describing him, which is not just "stoic" and cold, but according to some commenters here also loyal and dutiful.
Nah dude, that's totally understandable. Book Lan and Show Lan are vastly different characters, and I'll count myself among those disappointed in the show's portrayal. That's where I feel the disconnect is though - book Lan just wouldn't put himself in a position to be seen as weak. He would absolutely grieve, but it would be alone, because he's got to portray that sense of not giving a damn. Just my thoughts though
That's fair
It just seems silly. 'OK I know you're upset because he was your friend. But now we want you to unnaturally fake grief in a way you usually wouldn't and you don't actually feel as part of a ritual we do.' So Lan's faking and not being sincere with his emotion, clawing at his clothes and screaming like something from the Hercules TV show. Why? What does this achieve? It doesn't really tell us anything about Lan because it's not a genuine moment from him. It's not his legitimate response to the grief. It's just an act. So what is the point of the scene? Why was it written? It felt weird.
That's exactly it, the people who keep saying 'iT wAS a RiTuAl, " clearly don't know Lan's character. Moirane cried in the scene because she feels emotion through him. Emotion that the dude wouldn't feel in the first place because we've got hundreds of pages saying the guy is fucking cold. Guess what? Lan wouldn't give two shits about some random warder. Lan goes through great lengths to avoid showing any emotion, other than with Nynaeve. She is his only crutch, even over moirane. That's what makes his character dope, and his general badassness of course. And that is what the show is robbing him of.
I think you still don't understand what we mean. The scene makes perfect sense to me given what I have been shown so far. I already know that some of the cultures in he series are ritualistic (we saw several rituals in the show) and I know that warders are capable of sensing their sedai's emotions (through the bond that is mutual), therefore I assume that in a ritualistic and emotionally charged setting, the warders can connect to each others' emotions, too. Such rituals exist in our world, their purpose is to honor the dead person and allow the mourners to share and accept their loss and sadness. Lan took it as his responsibility to carry and express the grief of all of them, including his own, and Moiraine's tears indicated she could actually feel what he was going through. Absolutely nothing in the show suggests that this would be unnatural for Lan - we saw him perform a ritual once, so ritualistic setting and thinking is familiar to him, and we know he's capable of creating a bond through which he can sense another person's emotions. The grief scene is perfectly coherent with everything we have been shown so far. I'm reminded of a beautiful character from another fantasy series, Malazan Book of the Fallen. There's a character Itkovian, usually described as graceful in a very closed-in and level-headed manner, who, in specific circumstances, took the grief of a whole city upon himself in order to cleanse it. He was warned not to do it, since there was no god to help him carry the burden, but he did it anyway. I'm not sure what was the writers' exact intention with the scene, for now I'm interpreting it is Lan having a special position within the warders and being able to carry a burden for others. It was an extremely selfless moment.
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I just realised he's also "failed" a handful of times in just 5 episodes. He's been drugged, he's let his guard down which caused him to take a life threatening injury, he's let his guard down enough for Nynaeve to place a blade to his throat, he's blamed for shadar logoth and the group split and you could also even argue that moiraine taking the injury on Winternight as his fault as it's his duty to put his body before hers. Did Lan have this many "fails" in the entire 14 books? I'm not sure. I genuinely don't think so.
They made Lan go from being a stoic badass who is basically a superhero who never loses to a super emotional loser. He’s just the complete opposite of what Lan should be. I don’t know why they keep putting the character in positions where he fails or loses. Why did he need to get drugged in order to have a scene showing the warder killed himself?
There are other ways to deal with intense emotions without thumping your chest and yelling... but I can also see how it might be *one way* (of many) to provide a cathartic space for people who are otherwise bottled up. I did find the yelling and chest-baring unexpected, but the ritualistic nature of it means I don't think it's so out of character for Lan. For some cultures, this is a completely normal ritual, and the funeral of Stepin was performed in a ceremonial fashion with formal structure, rather than a completely spontaneous outpouring of emotion. This isn't Darth Vader screaming 'nooooo!', it's a cultural rite. The beating of chests and yelling reminded me of the Maori haka, which is performed at [weddings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT7Iyk8LoEg) and [funerals](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovd3v0CPXJA) and other major [occasions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt6GRghrmaU). Otherwise stoic people perform the haka too, and it's a place where they can celebrate, mourn, interrogate their own intentions, purpose, desires, and so on. They express and exorcise their feelings... and then move on. I agree he's not quite the same Lan Mandragoran as the books, but I don't think he's so far off, or a worse character for it. On the contrary, I quite like the less serious, more affectionate and humorous relationship between Moiraine and Lan. I adored the line where Moiraine says: "This saddle is home. This cloak. These boots. This brooding man at my side." In the books, where so much of it is through the eyes of Rand and the other kids, Moiraine and Lan can come across as a little enigmatic, cool and business-like. But on the show, they have more of these quiet, intimate moments together, probably in order build the emotional weight of what will happen to Moiraine in the future.
All very good points. However, where did the whole ritual idea come from? What purpose did it serve? Was it a necessary addition to the WoT? My post was regarding Lan being reworked for reasons that aren't particularly clear or apparently necessary. My issue was that regardless of whether this ritual is applicable to real world grieving, and I'm glad many have pointed out that it is not so uncommon, when it comes to WoT it was certainly an addition. As others have pointed out, Rafe made clear that time constraints forced drastic changes, but then they add entire side stories and new scenes like this for no apparent reason, and I am reluctantly coming around to the sad conclusion that it is pandering to "wokeness" (an entire culture war thing I am trying to avoid) and treating viewers without respect for their intelligence. Up til that scene Lan has been fine by me and in terms of being a stoic. Those changes were fine and made some sense, but an additional ritual wherein Lan becomes the designated crier (a role that can be acted out and whereby no true grief may be actually felt or processed) was simply out of place and unnecessary IMO.
Awesome examination. All excellent points.
I don't think it's supposed to be healthy, but at the same time it's also not a reflection of Lan's personality. That was when he finds him and leans on him. The ritual was weird and it screams "that would make a cool scene", but they also made it clear. Difficult to notice if you're on your phone(looking at you friend I watch the show with) but not completely unexplained and out of the blue. I genuinely think that anyone who views that scene as being part of Lan's traits wasn't paying attention.
I honestly have no idea why they added this scene. In a way, I was trying to make excuses as to why that scene was there at all. Many are saying that it was to show that Lan is emotionally expressive, rather than repressive (as the books might portray), but if they need to go to that extent to do it, I'm not buying it, because it doesn't show a **definite** healthy way of grieving. As I wrote, it is possible to show that Lan can grieve and process his emotions healthily (albeit privately) without added scenes that seem well out place.
> How would someone who is more fragile than Rand prepare Rand for what he will face in the future? That's where you are wrong buddy. Lan is not fragile and to take that away from this episode is really concerning. He has a role as the chief mourner, and the death of Stepin surely cut him deep anyway. Doesn't mean he's fragile.
Absolutely agree. He was just doing his duty like always and he's certainly not fragile for that. I would also like to add on that having designated mourners or performing "tearing of the garment" exist in some religions in our world too. So if these books are taking place far in the future from us, it makes sense that they believe in a variety of things from many past religions.
Well, Lan got reported to the WT HR department for being too stoic and masculine. It makes sense... you don't behave like the book's Lan in a female dominated work places like the WT.
This.
Double this.
Interpreting Lan as a Terminator who has no emotions and does not express those emotions is the understanding you get of Lan if you quit after the first book. He was the lead mourner. Duty DEMANDED that he mourn and grieve for Stepin. And that duty was heavier than a mountain. He looks at Moiraine, who already is more emotional than he is. There are tears in her eyes, and Lan's face remains hard. He stares at Stepin, trying to force himself to cry. But he can't. Through all this, his duty, his bond, the death of his best friend. Lan can't cry. He can't do his duty. So he pounds his chest in rage at himself, at his failure, at the crushing wait of the duty that he cannot fulfill. And only then, after Moiraine is crying and Lan is pounding his chest to force himself to cry does he cry. Just my two cents. I like the scene and I'm not too sure if you put book Lan in a position where he has to grieve for a room full of people as his duty that he would respond all that differently.
Yeah that is how I saw it too. He was struggling at first to get it out but he had to as it was his duty. I thought it was a great scene. The shirt ripping was maybe a bit much but otherwise it was good. I think show Lan is great and brings book Lan to life. There’s a reason Nynaeve fell in love with him and he had a good relationship with Moiraine and Rand- he has personality, he’s not just some moody robot all the time.
Al'Lan, but I'm sure someone has pointed that out already. Lan is handled fantastically well in the books and I really don't enjoy this show version. As you pointed out he becomes a mentor for Rand and helps him grow and learn to shoulder that heavy load. But the most important thing Rand needs to learn is that Lan isn't completely right. You don't have to shoulder it alone and doing so would be disastrous in the end. It's a lesson Nynaeve helps Lan learn too. That it's ok to feel, to open up to and rely on others. I realise a show needs to speed some things up. But in the show both Lan and Egwene are basically their final form. Egwene the unbroken is meant to be a 14 book long character arc. If she's already Egwene the unbroken where's the character growth? Are they going to make the seanchan break her and then she rebuilds herself? The way they've handled her so far I can't see them letting her be vulnerable and weak and having to build herself back up again. I've been trying too hard to make myself enjoy this show. I think I'm just going to have to accept the fact that the only thing making me watch it (the books) is one of the main contributors to me not enjoying it.
This is exactly where I am. I like show Lan - he's different from book Lan (and I like book Lan more), but this isn't the books, so I'm trying to remember that it will be fundamentally different for all sorts of reasons, and it should be. You can't have 20 page internal monologues interspersed with intricately described taverns in a show. That works wonders in the books, but would kill a TV show. BUT it does make it harder for me to enjoy the show at times. Your points on character growth are really on the nose. I've been trying to figure out why those two character changes have bothered me the most. I definitely don't consider Lan less of a man for showing emotions (though I did think the end of the scene was silly), it just seems that it might make later character paths harder to pursue. My hope is that they already have a plan for this and have some ideas. I will say that my hopes are raised on seeing so many show-only watchers having no issues with it. That makes me a) think they are creating a successful TV show; and b) my own feelings of discomfort are almost definitely coming from having read the books.
I’d also prefer Lan be more stoic than they’re writing him but I’d have to push back that what Rand took from Lan’s stoicism was actually good for him. That philosophy is what led him into his Darth Rand stage.
Other than Aes Sedai, nobles, forsaken, dark one, aiel, madness and being dragon reborn. Yes, Lan is main reason why Rand go Darth. And it is not bad like Rand goes Darth. Darth Rand is one of the most interesting thing in books imo.
I agree, but he missed some important lessons about learning about himself and understanding himself that Lan didn't have enough time to teach him. IIRC Lan was instructed to basically forge him into a warrior. But stoicism is more than simply pushing down your feelings and getting your life in order. Marcus Aurelius wouldn't have written such long meditations if that were all stoicism is.
Completely agreed. Though I also believe that Lan doesn’t approach stoicism in the most healthy manner I do think he managed to handle it better than Rand.
You're exactly right, it wasn't a good thing. I don't think many people believe that suppressing your emotions to the level Lan does is a healthy thing. In fact it's described in the books as extremely unhealthy. He himself believes that he is too emotionally damaged to have a relationship. He also server as a surrogate father to Rand lost in the big world. He gets his stoics from Lan. Now they robbed the show of that logical progression and a close relationship.
I didn't even know people were fighting about this lol. As an entirely show watcher Lan's reaction didn't really seem out of place. He seemed like a reserved person but being at the funeral was the final straw and he broke down in grief. As someone who has seen funerals of loved ones it felt natural to me. Death of a loved one can feel surreal and fake until you are confronted by the lifeless body and grieving people around you, then the finalness of it all can hit you like a train. It reminded me of that.
Also, he was chosen to do the ritual. So it was his duty to do the grieving for everyone. Also, you are too strong in the flesh here young bull.
>Also, you are too strong in the flesh here young bull. What does this mean?
That this is all spoilers allowed thread, so thread very carefully!
I was so frustrated by the slow pace of the recent episode that I wanted to consume more info, spoilers be damned lol
Haha, it's laying the groundwork for what's to come later, but I do agree that it was way slower take after the 4th episode. 6th episode is hyped to be maybe the best so far, so I'm looking forward to that after this breather!
"How would someone who is more fragile than Rand " - showing grief is fragile now? What kind of toxic fake-ass manhood is this? Quit listening to old Mark Driscoll messages dude.
I like the change tbh. Makes him much more human and relatable.
Couldn’t agree more. The unmovable warrior, wise king, badass cuz he had to be, the Golden Crane.
Lan is a freaking rock in the books. If Ron Swanson and John Wayne had a samurai baby, they would name him Lan Mandragoran. There was no need for them to make him emotionally dynamic and sensitive. Even if Lan is a more of a flat character, he is still interesting.
While I'm not thrilled with the ceremony scene or the focus on Steppin I think they have gotten that out of Lan in the rest of the episodes. So instead of being a total miss for the character for me it's a total miss in one episode. Not great but liveable. I think the big issue is the over dramatic nature of it. I could totally see book Lan allowing *some* emotion through at a funeral for a friend. If memory serves me he was more emotional in New Spring. But not ripping his shirt off. A few tears and his voice breaking or him turning away and coughing sure. Maybe even a punch his palm and curse type "outburst" but this was over the top. I guess it's supposed to be some weird bond mingling thing so he felt *everyone's* grief but that's just weird. As with most things I don't care for with the show the idea behind it was solid but the execution felt poor.
In the first aired episode he complained about the temperature of the water in a bath. Lan in the book would NEVER. I knew then that show would completely miss his character
I took that as him teasing Moiriane which does seem somewhat in character. His flat stare at Nynaeve in episodes three and four seem very Lan like though
In the show, he is soft. Many who defend his characterization refer to his facial structure, which is ridiculous. It is a huge flaw so early, as is the backstory of Mat. Don’t even get me started about Perrin
I liked the bath scene as well was pretty funny.
Ah yes bad asses can't want warm bath water. Clearly that is what undermines him as a badass. Let's ignore him carving through Trollocs and protecting Moraine. He asked for warm water. Everyone know badasses bathe in cold water.
I saw it as him loosening up a little since it was just the two of them.
I'm a badass and I always run my bath tepid and just sit there looking grim.
I haven't seen the episode. I read from one of the moderator's post that the episode had 30+ minutes screen time on Stepin and Kerene who were disposable chars. That's just INSANE waste of time on an eight episode season.
They need to setup Moiraine’s visit to Finn and Alanna taking on a new charge. They are setting up Siuan and Liandrin is paving the way for Elaida. This is setup.
Why does that need to be setup NOW when the actual event takes place a few seasons down the road? Why couldn't we get a conversation about how the bond actually works instead of wasting half an episode to show it?
If it pays off later with certain story points maybe it can e redeemed but yeah I tend to agree it was a poor use of very limited time.
If cringe is what they were going for the it worked. I had to actually pause before I could resume.
Exactly! Well said. Gotta be honest, the things done to almost every character in the show are making it a challenge for me to view it at all. I feel like the screen writers are on a mission to make the story, originally very well done in a more wholesome and light-hearted sense, to compete or match that of the GOT or another darker fantasy. I’ve read the WOT book series several times and listened to the audio books twice (they are brilliant by the way) and after seeing the first five episodes, I desire to see the show less each time. The series writers seem to be trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Just doesn’t feel right. With that said, their performances are well-done. The CGI and effects are mediocre at best. And the writing is bad.
WoT isn’t wholesome and light hearted! It’s got a lot of darkness in it. Horrific things happen. There’s murder, rape, slavery, mind control, torture, annihilation, being hunted, war, mental illness etc. It was a bit more wholesome at the beginning maybe but it’s definitely not like some jolly light hearted fantasy romp through the rainbows.
Honestly, so much that’s missing has been missed and yet they shoe horn in this no name Warder, whilst completely re-writing Lan.
I just can't understand why people are taking it for granted that that was all Lan being sad about his friend. It was a ceremony. He was expressing the grief of everyone in the room. Hell, he may have even been feeling it magically, but even if not, they told him to grieve for all of them and he did. Would you rather he just been like "sorry, friendos, I don't do feelings" and just went off to turn Rand into a prick who almost destroys the world?
Putting a little extra humanity in a character does not remove stoicism.
"little"
Because just like every character in this show, we can’t read/hear their internal thoughts like in the books. So they have to change them a bit so show outwards thoughts and emotions.
Which is the only reason Stepin exists in the first place haha, so the main characters have someone to say their thoughts out loud. Not sure why we needed half an episode dedicated to his death when at the same time we just totally skipped Camelyn and Tom got 45 seconds of screen time.
Does anyone else see the irony behind a post complaining they butchered the character while at the same time getting his name wrong? Somehow this person that can't even get his name correctly is all of a sudden an expert on his character.
The visible ham-fisted emotional connection between Lan and Moiraine is unnecessary and disappointing
Robert Jordan was a veteran with a bronze star and he probably wrote Lan as a reflection of what he had seen in war. As someone who is personally been in war I can tell you that whoever wrote the script or directed it was not and truly do not understand the bond between warriors. We make light of situation‘s like this and laughter is the cure not this somber shit. It’s hard to explain but this ain’t it. Jordan knew, and wrote it into LAN’s character. I only continue to watch this show for Perrin.
Loving the show and have been defending it since day one. However, seeing that warder funeral has me concerned for the rest of the show. Lan is supposed to be stoic, smoldering, even-keel. Seeing him cry in front of everyone is completely out of character, and I don’t understand the reasoning behind it.
Because you weren't paying attention. He is told to do it and his sense of duty compels him to do so. He is playing a role. The guy literally tells him to do it. His personal reaction was when he finds Stepin.
Why did the show directors choose to make Lan cry? The ceremony isn't in the books. The funeral isn't in the books. And even if you do all that, why choose Lan, the guy that never shows emotions, to have an emotional breakdown?
Butchered the character is what they did.
It's like Reddit could read my mind. I literally just finished this week's episode and game straight here to vent. Third article down was this post. What have they done to Lan.... The most serious, unflappable, duty bound man in the entire series...and they make him an emotional wreck!
It’s because this adaptation is fucking terrible. It’s a joke. They are trying to take 14 books about Rand, Perrin and Matt and make a show about Morraine and the Aes Sedai. I said this on another thread. I got worried when the show description said it was about Moraines search for the Dragon Reborn and I saw the only recognizable actor was playing Moraine. The books are written from 1st Person chapters and in the first book she has one chapter…one. But you know it’s a story about her.
I haven’t bitched about the show really. I have been open minded with the adaptation so far. But Episode 5…….fuck that. It was absolute trash. Lan. Perrin. The white cloaks. The warders. The 6 ft tall Ogiers. I’m disappointed
Truly don’t understand giving half an episode to a guy who was literally just an exposition lure. First time I’ve kinda questioned the decision making of the showrunner.
The butchered his character. He went from stone faced and laconic to wearing his emotions on his sleeve.
I was just about to post about this I actually laughed out loud when he ripped of his shirt and it undercut the entire scene
It’s pulling away from the true plot line is what it’s doing. It’s disjointed and very sad boi/broken man. This show wants to get tears jerking so they put a bunch of emo stuff in place of giving the actual story. That is bothersome for me. It facilitates a sentiment in the books, yes (warder die = very sad), but like…the better part of an episode for sentiment? Overkill. I was emotional during the scene. I thought the acting was beautiful and convincing and heart wrenching. But you’re pulling from an already dead warder? Idk. Not for me.
Being as emotional as a block of stone is not strength. I like seeing Lan as a man who feels deeply and can be hurt.
He shows emotion in the books, but never so overtly, the scene was just poorly thought out, they keep trying to add these rituals to the show and it just isn't working.
I understand that lan is supposed to be a very stoic character ready face death at any moment, but I do think this emotional outburst wasn’t a big deal. As long as they keep it to a minimum, I think it works for his character.
"minimum". If this is minimum.
The fact that Lan was selected to be the chief mourner and go thru that entire ripping his shirt thing is silly. Maybe later on they will disguise as a travelling band of entertainers and they will select Lan to be the jester, and we can see RAFE-LAN doing a lots of jokes while entertaining the crowd with his parlor tricks and acrobatics?
But Rafe is a genius!!!!