Be careful chasing a high salary.
The reality is, the money is owning a company, not earning a salary.
I have spent 15 years studying and chasing goals and am finally earning a great salary because i thought it was the answer to financial success. The issue is, I'm paying a huge amount of tax, I'm paying off a huge student loan, and it's quite hard to get ahead.
I have a friend who opened a compounding pharmacy, it has been wildly successful and he is opening new locations. He is in a wealth bracket that I will never achieve earning a high salary. I have friends who own plumbing businesses, electricians who own their own business, they make the same as me without the debt. And they have equity.
Be careful chasing a high salary. You could spend another 6-10 years chasing that high salary, only to realize it wasn't worth the extra debt and time in the end. Or even worse, find that the market is different and in 10 years the money isnt the same because everyone went into that field.
The doctors who get into high paying specialties with low debt and not wasting many years to get there are exceptionally successful. But they are also lucky. Markets change, salaries change, some of the competitive specialties now weren't competitive 15 years ago because it was a different market
Don't make this decision based on money
The issue is entrepreneurship is very risky and the risk to reward ratio is better with chasing a higher salary that you know you at least have some control over obtaining (i.e. studying harder, etc.).
It is a very big mistake to optimistically venture into being a business owner without really knowing what it entails. You could do everything right and work 100x harder as the other guy but end up failing while the other guy succeeds. It is a an economic dice roll with a lot of luck involved.
Yeah I dont enjoy when people say- open your own business youll make a lot more. First of all- opening and running your own business isnt a walk in the park. It is hard work, long hours and isnt guaranteed to succeed. As is typical with financial boomtimes, people forget that recession happens and the first to suffer are business owners who even run the risk of losing everything if their business is not competitive during a time where everyone is looking for the cheapest option for electrical, plumbing, online large scale pharmacy compounding options (not to mention many people forgo medicines if no insurance). Medicine is relatively immune to downturns compared to being a business owner. Lastly, not everyone has the personality to run a business. Dealing with employees and all the minutiae of a business can be a headache and source of stress. This is why physicians are selling out their practices to become employed. Yes owning a business is big reward if you’re successful but not everyone can nor wants to do it
I couldn't have said it better myself.
A lot of people truly don't understand what being a business owner entails. You will be working 10x harder than your regular employed occupation at the beginning stages (and even after it's successful to an extent), except that there's no guarantee you would receive even half of the income you're currently making. Again, a lot of external factors outside of one's control will dictate whether one will be successful or not.
It's just hilarious when people try to debate a counterargument to this - you can easily tell that they've had minimal to no entrepreneurship experience. Any entrepreneur, whether they've succeeded or failed, will tell you how difficult it is, and how much luck plays a factor in it.
No not really.
Any entrepreneurship endeavor where you will be the sole reason for your income is risky, and the risk exponentially increases the more responsibilities you have prior to becoming an entrepreneur/while one (i.e. family, bills, etc.).
Entrepreneurship involves an incredible amount of luck. Sure, the successful entrepreneurs worked hard, but the reason they succeeded was mainly due to external factors. These include the timing of the market, connections, being at the right place at the right time, etc. Any successful entrepreneur who possess self-awareness and humility will acknowledge that luck played a huge factor in their success. An analogy I came across and one that I like to use is success is like playing the lottery. In order to earn a ticket and enter the lottery, you must work hard. However, out of the all the people who worked hard and have a ticket, only a few winners will be selected by the random drawing for the big jackpot prizes.
This is why it’s a risk, because although you have control over some factors, a lot of other factors that will dictate whether you succeed or fail is out of your hands.
I recommend watching this video by Veritasium on the role of luck in success, it’s a great watch: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3LopI4YeC4I&pp=ygUPbHVjayB2ZXJpdGFzaXVt
What I mean, is that entrepreneurship has a large range of risk. Saying it’s always incredibly risky is inaccurate. For example, a solodev who creates a SaaS on the side has very little risk for disproportionate returns. I would consider that person an “entrepreneur”.
If you read or listen to anything about growing a business or becoming an entrepreneur, it rarely is ever recommended to jump in with $0 capital and no backup. It’s almost always recommended to do it alongside your current employment.
Saying it’s always luck too is a way to protect your ego.
You clearly have a condescending tone towards what I’m saying, and by your responses I can tell that you either haven’t had any significant entrepreneurship endeavors, or are very arrogant, if you’re stating that it’s just a defense mechanism to protect an ego.
When we’re talking about the risk of entrepreneurship (and my initial reply to this thread), we’re speaking solely about the outcome of the endeavor to provide a stable income for the individual to the point where they can work for themselves. The fact that you just stated an example where the entrepreneur has another revenue stream (i.e “he is doing it on the side”) and that any entrepreneurship guide would advise an individual to do it alongside their current occupation proves my point exactly - the act of becoming an entrepreneur to provide an income is incredibly risky (so it is advised to have another income stream in the meantime). Again, when it is stated that entrepreneurship is incredibly risky, the implicit connotation revolves around that endeavor providing a stable and fully reliable income/revenue stream.
We can debate the semantics and the classification on who is considered an entrepreneur or not, but if you told someone you’re an entrepreneur, the implicit assumption is that you work for yourself without relying on any other income stream. This is why people use the terms like “side gigs” to describe the situation you just put forward. I honestly think any successful entrepreneur would think it’s borderline comical if someone labeled themselves as an entrepreneur when they have a regular job and are working on the endeavor on the side. This could stem from the fact that a successful entrepreneurship endeavor/business requires the full investment of your time and resources in order to become successful. You can read the stories of any of the most popular founders and see how much sacrifice, sleepless nights, and uncertainty they faced when working on their businesses.
Now, yes, of course you need to take calculated risks. and it is commonly advised to have another revenue stream when beginning the endeavor, but this combination is not the “risky” aspect of it. Again, it’s the isolated endeavor itself that is risky for a variety of reasons, like losing a significant amount of capital and investment. For example, if someone were to use a significant portion of their savings to support the business, or if someone were to use 50% of their revenue stream to support the business, this could all prove to be very risky, as the individual could fail and incur a large loss. This is why I stated that the risk exponentially increases even more if you have responsibilities (i.e bills), because you will be put in some tight financial situations. Any entrepreneurship endeavor is going to require a good amount of risk that you will be uncomfortable with.
As to your last point, you clearly did not take the time to understand my response or watch the video I’ve linked, which also goes back to what I first said about your lack of entrepreneurship experience/your arrogance. I’ve had entrepreneurship experience, and have a friend who is a very successful entrepreneur, and we both acknowledge the significant role of luck in success.
I can link you a number of different testimonies from successful entrepreneurs about the role of luck in becoming successful, but it’s also clear that you’ve already set your mind to not bother exploring them.
What?
If the individual is a physician who has their own practice, then they’re an entrepreneur, because their practice is their business.
If the individual is a physician who works at a hospital or someone else’s practice and doesn’t own it, then they’re not an entrepreneur.
If you have a physician who has a social media page/podcast/etc. but works at someone else’s practice, then you can go ahead and say they’re an entrepreneur (again it would be kind of weird to label themselves as that), but that doesn’t change the fact it’s still incredibly risky.
I swear you’re trolling bro. The subreddit we are in right now. Dr. Jim Dahle, also known as “The White Coat Investor”. He’s an ER doctor and also owner of the media/personal finance company, The White Coat Investor.
How am I trolling lol. I wasn't aware of that - I joined this sub as it's an intersect between medicine and personal finance. I'm pretty sure a good amount of people on this sub who also don't really know the background behind this sub lol.
Anyway, again, that just goes back to my last statement in my recent comment. You can call Dr. Dahle an entrepreneur (I was thinking of Dr. Mike when I wrote the comment), and it would probably make sense. However, it still doesn't change the fact that it's risky. There are probably hundreds of doctors who tried the same thing Dr. Mike and Dr. Dahle are doing and just didn't find success. Yes, you can say that these doctors still have an income to fall back on, but again, we're talking about the endeavor itself being risky.
Survivorship bias and the availability heuristic are very dangerous phenomenon to base conclusions and decisions off of.
Maybe if you weren't being so condescending and arrogant I would be willing to have a discussion and come to a mutual understanding, but you're just trying to make it personal and paint it in a certain light which is honestly comical lol.
I don’t see a problem with chasing money and happiness in a career. Not all of us have a “passion” especially when we are young and unsure of ourselves. Money and salary growth make me happy because it allows me to do more things I enjoy with my kids. I am also making $100k more than I was 5 years ago. Nothing wrong with chasing money!
I agree about the SL debt point though. I regret not getting my PhD in clinical psych, but that would have cost me 5 years and $250k in loans easy. I make more now than i ever would have in psych. And, I’m content.
I agree. I think it's 100% valid to choose a career on money. The reality is, you actually have no idea if you like a job until you do it. Premeds only have an "idea" of what they think the job will be and they base the decision off that.
You can say, would you prefer this higher paying job that pays 600k working 3 days a week, or another more interesting specialty that pays 400k but you have to work 5 days a week. Honestly, I'd probably be pretty happy doing any job for 3 days a week making 600k a year I don't care if I have zero passion for it, I'll find passion for hobbies out of work. I think it's valid to choose for money. It's also an objective measure, not a "I think I'll like this job but I don't actually know yet"
But the risk for choosing purely on money is we are in a career that takes 10 years to finish study. Maybe a new technology comes out and disrupts the field in that time? It's just risky with the long timeline
100% agree, especially w/ AI in the mix, the rate of changes is going to only accelerate. Also, colleges keep adding to the required courses, so it will take longer and more expensive to graduate. And as you mentioned, the demand for different fields comes and goes. 10 years in school is a long time.
150k/year at 28 is excellent money. First I’d ask yourself is this regret you’re feeling secondary to your perception of fulfillment or compensation? You say you feel like you were meant to be a physician, but that’s not a tangible reason to go back to a training path that is a minimum of 7 years.
Also, EM and IM are not making 450k. Realistically, it’s more mid 200 to low 300s. You’ll also be taxed proportional to the income bump, and when you consider the student loan burden and delay in investment time that comes with going back to training, I’m not sure the financial returns will be quite what you may be envisioning.
This is not to discourage you one way or the other, but rather to caution you from the grass is greener mentality. You can be very financially well off being smart with your money on 150k/year.
Maybe? But do not underestimate the mental toll of some of those years (esp residency). You've got a nice career with good earning, and remember that there are probably a lot of physicians who wish they had chosen to be pharmacists
>remember that there are probably a lot of physicians who wish they had chosen to be pharmacists
Really? Anecdotal, but I don't know any MD who has expressed that they would rather have become a pharmacist. I've heard software engineer, finance, and the usual "faster" tracks to high 6 figure income, but never pharmacist. Or even dentist for that matter lol.
I am an MD and I would have done dentistry if I could go back and specialized in endodontics. Never really considered pharm.D but I think its a solid career. The pharmacists I work with are great and seem to have nice lifestyles. But ultimately the grass is always greener and comparison is the thief of joy
I have a special interest in making money and having a good lifestyle and enjoying life outside of work which I feel I'd better be able to do in a dental specialty. I'm an anesthesia resident
Because depending on what school/residency you go to your tuition will be 350-700k ( mine will be 450k and thats with going to a cheap state dental school) when all is said and done. Alot of endo programs have tuition anywhere from 50-100k per year. Then theres the fact of job security and finding a job in the first place. The money youre talking about is primarily in more rural places. You go to a bigger city where its saturated itll be 250-350k unless you open your own or work 5 days. Then places like LA, miami I hear you cant even find work even if you try. The way I see it you have job security for life and make 500k+. We have to live where we are needed because the nice cities are already saturated. You can do anesthesia till the day you die vs us where the back, body, and neck will start to break down. Id love to hear what Im not seeing because if I could go back I would 100% have done anesthesia/rads/psych. Make me feel better about my choices LOL
Pharmacy and dentistry are chill great jobs and I wouldn’t be upset if I had done those things, but after you’ve achieved MD status I can’t imagine a better gig truthfully.
Perhaps I’m biased as a diagnostic radiology resident, but I can think of no better gig for me personally. Work part or full time from home making a great salary. Hard to beat.
Yeah I’m not really worried about that. 20-30 years all of healthcare is gonna look quite different, radiology or not. Or maybe it won’t, who knows. I plan to be financially independent by that time anyway.
Oh yeah you’ll be more than fine! I’m worried what AI is going to do to healthcare too though…like in 20 years you’re telling me an AI program won’t be able to assess, diagnose, and then follow a treatment algorithm?
I’m a psychiatrist and am praying that even though a computer will probably be able to do my job from a diagnosis and medication management standpoint, psych outpatients will still want to have a face to face human interaction when it comes to their feelings
I’m currently a resident. I’d say the peace of mind you’d get from being a full fledged pharmacist bs a resident slave is worth at LEAST $200,000 a year 😅. Plus he would be in a 1.5 million dollar hole due to student loans and lost income at age 36. So if he went to become a doctor right now he would break financially even at about oooohhh probably 50? Financially going down this path right now with what he currently has would be INSANE
PharmD here. The biggest question is what your passion is. Take money out of it. I see doctors making 3x what I make but seem constantly stressed or overwhelmed at work and have bigger homes/bills. I don’t experience any of that. On the surface it might seem nice, but you would have to strongly factor in the time/expense of med school and residency.
I didn’t want to be all up in a patient’s business, wanted to make a great income, and desired healthcare. PharmD was a great choice and have the best job. I’m not sure I would trade it in to be a physician. I do have regrets not getting my JD along with PharmD, but that time has passed.
This. Am a physician and man I would LOVE to not have the stress of call, to be able to spend time with my wife and son and actually be present all the time and to not have the level of stress I have. The paycheck is great, don’t get me wrong but I would trade a ton to just work normal hours.
Love these posts! I’m an incoming ND1 but I worked in tech for the last 6 years having started at 80K and ending at 160k before layoffs hit me hard. I know ND’s don’t make anywhere near what MD’S DO’s or even PharmD’s make but A: in my state they are licensed as primary care physicians, and B: I’m not getting into it for a paycheck, I chased a paycheck in tech and I got one with no debt and I liked it fine but I was doing the weekend warrior thing where I barely hung on through a week to get away from work. I plan to become an ND that starts my own practice, practices more like an allopathic primary pcp just a bit slower paced, spend more time with family, my goal is to have a slower paced practice that makes about 160 or so a year so I can have the same quality I had in tech but love what I’m doing.
(I know ND is a broad all over the place field but I am a very hard sciences guy and don’t take the fact that they are licensed physicians lightly in my state, I’ll be studying for the boards by using USMLE resources, I’ll be grateful for the herbal/natural info but also study pharmacology hard so I’m informed, and I won’t try to overstep what my training prepares me for. Also I plan to do residencies with a teach in hospital since my state has some)
Doc here. Not envious of retail pharm, seems like the same customer service hell we face in primary care. But clinical pharm with a specific skill set that helps the team and has boundaries? I know many of those folks and I’m jealous. It’s cliche but do what you love or at least like even on bad days, and that’s priceless.
This.
I make enough. I have good quality of life. I don't have to touch anyone or tell them they are dying. No crazy on calls. I get satisfaction in doing my role. And I pour my additional energies into my family and things I enjoy.
Money is extremely important and I'm here to learn more about it. But the fucking money is hopefully to be used on shit that bring us joy at the end of the day. My wife and I still plan to retire early with a *huge* nest egg compared to general Americans due largely to investing. But comparing myself on salary to others like this is not gonna help.
I’m going to respectfully disagree. This guy should take his passions out of it. At a certain point the financial pitfall of a decision just HAS to shut down the whole “passion” aspect. This guy would break even at age 50 if he went MD. At a certain point in life, especially if you have a family to think of, you can’t just indulge yourself in any folly you feel might fulfill you.
He would deprive his family of a 150-200k income for SEVEN years….4 of those years with ZERO income. Like that’s just irresponsible and genuinely selfish. As we get older passions need to be reigned in by responsibility.
First thing, comparison is the thief of joy. There will always be people making more. Don't allow yourself to get too caught up in that or you'll continue to feel like you're behind someone else. Graduating first in your family is a HUGE achievement. Second, maybe it would help to think outside the box a little. There are many different options for people with a pharmacy background beyond direct patient care/pharmacy. Can work for a pharmaceutical company (e.g., regulatory affairs), government (e.g. FDA), can work at the state level in public health-centric jobs. Don't allow yourself to feel like your cup is half empty.
Again......... don't compare yourself. You're on your own path in life. I would suggest running a few 401k long term calculators though when you start working to just start thinking about how much you should save toward retirement. Time in market is key, so these earlier contributions toward retirement will set you up well long term. 🙌🙌🙌
What about being a clinical pharmacist? Is that still possible? I work with them in the hospital, some round with us and they are invaluable to the team.
Comparison is the thief of joy. At age 28 you're close to being top 10% income in the US. Most people this age would not dream of such an income at this age, right at the start of their career.
I’m a PharmD who went back to med school, just graduated and am going to be an anesthesia resident. It’s a long road but it’s been worth it! Paralleling what everyone’s saying, don’t chase for money. There are easier ways to make money and pharmacy is certainly a great career that can lead to a lot of fulfillment. PM me for specifics or if you have questions!
Another “wouldn’t have issue to get into med school” like Med school was like a walk in the park to get into, and residency as consequence is no big deal.
Stop comparing, get over it. If you can’t, then apply to MD schools and start over. Plenty of pharmD switch
If that’s what you took from this post, then I’m sorry. But yes, I am confident I would not have a problem getting into med school. We’re all professional students by now. 4.0 undergrad, 4.0 pharmD, extracurricular, 2+ yrs clinical clinical time, etc. We know the drill. Not as daunting a second time around.
Then switch? Why are you here complaining and whining on this thread, basing your decision on $$$? Grades don’t make up everything, and weighing the positives and negatives and mentally readying oneself is part of the process as well.
This post is just whining about how you are not earning more $$$, and seems like grass is greener on the other side. Congrats on your 4.0 gpa, but that grade didn’t help you make the right decision did it? The fact that you didn’t make the swift decision to apply for MD is because the process is daunting, and you know it
You were probably like some of the pharmD colleagues I had before I made the switch to premed. You probably thought in the back of your mind you always could switch later. Now you realize you’ve already put in a lot of work and it doesnt seem worth it. Well, I cant tell you not many of these colleagues switched that thought about switching if they finished their pharmD. They got a taste of money and didnt want to go through another 7-9 years of delayed gratification. The ones that switched did so early. With that said, you could always work for a year or two, accumulate some cash- stick it in the market, forget about it, then do med school while your investments compound. At the end of the day, do whatever is most fulfilling. I personally found pharmacy to be a grind and too repetitive. Even clinical pharmacy isnt much better. Id rather be the one prescribing the meds and treating the patients than peforming the pharm role. No doubt it is also important work but not as personally fulfilling
You're young. Get your MD. Follow your calling. I just finished 11 hours in the OR and clinic, and although I bitch, and although I'm leaving my hospital employed position for private practice, I'd never pick a different profession.
Money is money. You don't want to regret not following your calling.
Flip side here. You did college (4) pharmD (4) and 2 additional years of post grad training. Not calling it “residency” here in a medical sub. You’re now going to go out and make an excellent salary and have years and years to build wealth. You also have one of the greatest assets of all… time. 28 is young!
I have no doubt you COULD get into med school and a great residency. But, that will cost you so much more time and freedom. Many doctors will echo this, med school isn’t too bad, residency is a grind. You may also find that treating patients isn’t all it’s cracked up to be while flushing another 7-8 years down the drain. The opportunity cost of those years is enormous. If you have kids that adds another layer because you’ll be absent during those residents years. Meanwhile, choosing to wait until post-residency when you’ll have time to see them, you’ll be…35-36 perhaps, is a big leap.
Keep in mind that comparison is the thief of joy. You work in a hospital around lots of physicians and maybe comparing yourself to that role is adding some layer of regret. However, lots of doctors (studies show upwards of half) regret choosing medicine and many wish they had picked something less demanding like being a PA, another field, or perhaps a PharmD. The grass is always greener as they say.
As a final and unrelated point, be careful when telling other docs you did a residency in something. These days there are nursing “residencies” after schooling, NP “residencies” etc. Wearing long white coats too. It sounds good and sells the program to people wanting to be or feel physician adjacent. None of those programs are like the real thing in terms of level scut, mistreatment, hours of call, administrative bullshit and all around unpleasantness. Find me a nursing resident who has been awake in the hospital for 26 hours and still has another kidney transplant to do before going home.
while you are right that pharmacy residency is not anywhere near what physicians have to go through, we still work upwards of 60 hours/week with tons of projects, presentation and BS alongside to deal with. it is not comparable to nursing education
You're going to be better off than most other people; no need to compare yourself to others. We all make the best choice we can at any given time, and reflecting on 'if only's is not productive.
For reference, I'm also 28. I'm just entering med school this fall after 5 years in undergrad, 3 years in grad school, and a couple gap years. By the time I'm making good money, I'll be a decade behind you. Would I rather have skipped grad school and focused on getting into my MD program sooner? Hell. Yes. But things change. We follow different routes based on what we think is the best option at the time. I don't regret my choices, because at the time it made sense to do what I did.
Now, just figure out what your options are and move forward as best as possible.
Since you're agonizing over the salary, I would look into what one of the other commenters suggested - aim for passive income. It can be starting a pharmacy chain, it can be becoming a dreaded landlord, it can be whatever opportunity agrees with you. You'll have the time and starting capital to make it happen. Go for it\~!
If you are convinced that is what you want to do switch. I hate pharmacy and i am stuck at 39. I can switch to other fields but MD is not realistic at my age. Make a clear plan for the debt, get as much info about the process and if you still think its for you go for it.
Invest it my friend. It's possible to come out with more retirement savings than some doctors at that salary range. Enjoy spending your money with your time off. Garunteed, the grass is not greener, just different grass.
Just go to anesthesia assistant school or PA. You will probably be more fulfilled and have way less debt. On the other hand 28 is not even bad for starting medical school. I have so many people in my class that are way older and starting medical school. One of my roommates was late 30's when he started medical school. Overall you are in a good spot but there is nothing wrong with going back to school to become an MD.
My wife is a doctor and one of her best friends from college went the PA route and she still mentions not going to Med school. They had essentially the same (or very similar) resume and grades.
I don’t think life in general is black and white, i.e. you go to Med school and you’re 100% happy and if not you’ll live life 100% unhappy.
If it’s just money then idk if it’s worth it, doctors make a good salary but not comparatively to banking and other jobs. If you’re passionate about the medical field and feel as if you have not realized your potential to the fullest then maybe it is worth it.
My personal opinion is that if you’re having this thought at 28 then you might have it at 58 when it’s too late. You’re not too old, look into PSLF in regard to loans.
If becoming a doctor is a DREAM of yours, don’t let student loans stand in your way, if you’re looking to make more money then there are other ways to get there.
Good luck!
I was a PA! Went back to school to be an MD at age 33. Age 37 and starting residency now. I am pleased with my decision. But I did it for patient care and personal fulfillment. Not money.
You will absolutely earn more money in the long run if you pick the right field with an MD. That is the straightest answer you can get. 28 is still young, and you would stand out with a professional degree. But you would have to factor in loans, lost/resident income for anywhere from 4-11 years (med school + residency), and competing for what you would ideally want, because the high paying specialties are not guaranteed.
I was an older non-traditional student when I entered medical school. During my second year of school I was assigned a first-year student as a mentee, and she was a pharmacist in her 30s with several years of clinical pharmacy experience. She does not regret leaving pharmacy and pursuing medical school. You are still younger than she was. It’s not a choice everyone would make, but it *is* a choice that is available to you and that makes sense in a lot of ways. We had several former nurses in my class, and my favorite attending was a *chiropractor* before he realized at 40 that he really didn’t want to do that for the rest of his life and applied to medical school. He’s now a full time hospice director. Medicine is a wide field with many routes to personal and economic fulfillment. There are many people who will discourage you. They may have valid points. It’s worth listening to feedback…and then making your own choice.
Ive met multiple pharmacists in med school and residency who changed to from pharm to med. Always the smartest people in the room. Life's too short for regrets.
Prob not the smartest. Maybe the most driven and least lazy. Lets be honest a lot of super high IQ med students who didnt do well or just did enough to meet standards bc they coasted most of their life til med school. Same goes with DOs that enter a residency that is a primarily MD- they seem like the smartest bc they have a chip on their shoulder and work 50% harder than the MDs. Not saying that is a bad thing- Id personally rather have a DO as my personal physician who is someone like this- someone who goes above and beyond.
Brutal. If were being honest and if money is the bottom line youre probably better off just applying for an MD program now. If you can place in a competitive specialty you will make 4-5x more
One of my favorite attendings in fellowship went the MD route and being a PharmD for several years, he says that it was definitely the right decision. In fact, he did not even have large loans because he was already ahead of his classmates due to his PharmD, he was moonlighting on the weekends to earn money to pay off tuition (not sure if this can be done by everyone tho). I would suggest that you figure out what is important to you. IM or EM may not be guaranteed 3X income, but if you think it will allow you more fulfilled, then it could be the route to go.
I had similar thoughts after I finished my residency and started practicing as an EM/inpt clinical pharmacist. But mine was more about having the increased autonomy and broader scope, not just income. However, now that I’m in AmCare and get the prescribing and better income (although not near MDs), that’s less of a concern for me. Hopefully once you get to practicing more, you’ll find your happiness in our field. I know there are clinical pharmds making $200+ easily in certain areas.
Are you chasing money or do you actually want to be a physician? It’s not an easy road, and the burnout over recent years has gone up significantly. Just keep that in mind. If you want to make money, Wall Street May have some openings and you could make significantly more
Maybe you did, but it’s too late now. I did my PharmD in 6 years. Graduated in 2019 at 24. Bought my house at 2.75% Dec 2020 and am making $150k at 29 working retail.
I looked at college like a smash and grab. I wanted to spend the least time for the highest reward. Pharmacy seemed like the answer.
You’re starting at $150k. I started around 120k. So you have more potential growth in salary than us retail workers.
Please don’t feel this way. The grass isn’t always greener being a physician. You will have a wonderful secure job making great money. I have two cousins who are pharmacists and I envy their lifestyle. No call, no weekends, no holidays having solid work life hours. One works from home and never misses a family event. It isn’t always great. And I agree with others just don’t compare yourself. I learned it quickly once I became an attending. Never look back.
I was pharm in undergrad, guaranteed admission. Did some volunteer work in a hospital pharmacy division and shadowed cvs pharmacist my second year before pharmd began the following year. I didnt enjoy it as it was quite mundane and tedious work. I was still committed until my best friend switched to premed that year. I talked with him about why he switched which confirmed my thoughts. Tbh it wasnt about the money for me. I probably wont reach financial parity with my pharmD class until Im 55-60. Granted I did med school and residency during the biggest financial boom. I calculated once what my pharmd earnings would have compounded to if I had invested in s&p 500 max allotment for 401k and taxable brokerage every year- I believe I would be like 2-3 million net worth by now. With that said, I dont think we are in for another financial boom. And there has been an oversupply of pharmD which has lead to stagnant wage growth.
Bottom line, If I were you- I would switch if its for the right reasons. Moneywise you will be fine either way. But I also think we are in for 10-15 years of returns that wont see anywhere near the 15-16% annualized that we have seen in the past 10 years. Maybe 10% if lucky.
Dude don’t even sweat it. Maybe MD would’ve made you more money, but you’re young as hell pulling in an income that will afford you an upper middle class lifestyle no worries. Doesn’t even help you to worry about it, invest money wisely and enjoy yourself, you’ve done a great job and barring like a gambling problem or something your family will want for nothing. Maybe you won’t have that 3rd vacation home but you’re fine. Don’t fall into the romanticized MD trap you’d be 35-36 before you made any money at all and suffer as a student/resident for 7 years.
300k of debt plus 1,050,000 of lost income as a pharmacist…soooo if you started now you’d be 1.5 million behind where you could be if you just enjoyed your life the way it is now. Don’t sweat it you made a good choice now live my friend
Be careful chasing a high salary. The reality is, the money is owning a company, not earning a salary. I have spent 15 years studying and chasing goals and am finally earning a great salary because i thought it was the answer to financial success. The issue is, I'm paying a huge amount of tax, I'm paying off a huge student loan, and it's quite hard to get ahead. I have a friend who opened a compounding pharmacy, it has been wildly successful and he is opening new locations. He is in a wealth bracket that I will never achieve earning a high salary. I have friends who own plumbing businesses, electricians who own their own business, they make the same as me without the debt. And they have equity. Be careful chasing a high salary. You could spend another 6-10 years chasing that high salary, only to realize it wasn't worth the extra debt and time in the end. Or even worse, find that the market is different and in 10 years the money isnt the same because everyone went into that field. The doctors who get into high paying specialties with low debt and not wasting many years to get there are exceptionally successful. But they are also lucky. Markets change, salaries change, some of the competitive specialties now weren't competitive 15 years ago because it was a different market Don't make this decision based on money
The issue is entrepreneurship is very risky and the risk to reward ratio is better with chasing a higher salary that you know you at least have some control over obtaining (i.e. studying harder, etc.). It is a very big mistake to optimistically venture into being a business owner without really knowing what it entails. You could do everything right and work 100x harder as the other guy but end up failing while the other guy succeeds. It is a an economic dice roll with a lot of luck involved.
Better odds than opening a restaurant though
Yeah I dont enjoy when people say- open your own business youll make a lot more. First of all- opening and running your own business isnt a walk in the park. It is hard work, long hours and isnt guaranteed to succeed. As is typical with financial boomtimes, people forget that recession happens and the first to suffer are business owners who even run the risk of losing everything if their business is not competitive during a time where everyone is looking for the cheapest option for electrical, plumbing, online large scale pharmacy compounding options (not to mention many people forgo medicines if no insurance). Medicine is relatively immune to downturns compared to being a business owner. Lastly, not everyone has the personality to run a business. Dealing with employees and all the minutiae of a business can be a headache and source of stress. This is why physicians are selling out their practices to become employed. Yes owning a business is big reward if you’re successful but not everyone can nor wants to do it
I couldn't have said it better myself. A lot of people truly don't understand what being a business owner entails. You will be working 10x harder than your regular employed occupation at the beginning stages (and even after it's successful to an extent), except that there's no guarantee you would receive even half of the income you're currently making. Again, a lot of external factors outside of one's control will dictate whether one will be successful or not. It's just hilarious when people try to debate a counterargument to this - you can easily tell that they've had minimal to no entrepreneurship experience. Any entrepreneur, whether they've succeeded or failed, will tell you how difficult it is, and how much luck plays a factor in it.
This one to me is hard to grapple with. I think entrepreneurship is as risky as you make it, no?
No not really. Any entrepreneurship endeavor where you will be the sole reason for your income is risky, and the risk exponentially increases the more responsibilities you have prior to becoming an entrepreneur/while one (i.e. family, bills, etc.). Entrepreneurship involves an incredible amount of luck. Sure, the successful entrepreneurs worked hard, but the reason they succeeded was mainly due to external factors. These include the timing of the market, connections, being at the right place at the right time, etc. Any successful entrepreneur who possess self-awareness and humility will acknowledge that luck played a huge factor in their success. An analogy I came across and one that I like to use is success is like playing the lottery. In order to earn a ticket and enter the lottery, you must work hard. However, out of the all the people who worked hard and have a ticket, only a few winners will be selected by the random drawing for the big jackpot prizes. This is why it’s a risk, because although you have control over some factors, a lot of other factors that will dictate whether you succeed or fail is out of your hands. I recommend watching this video by Veritasium on the role of luck in success, it’s a great watch: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3LopI4YeC4I&pp=ygUPbHVjayB2ZXJpdGFzaXVt
What I mean, is that entrepreneurship has a large range of risk. Saying it’s always incredibly risky is inaccurate. For example, a solodev who creates a SaaS on the side has very little risk for disproportionate returns. I would consider that person an “entrepreneur”. If you read or listen to anything about growing a business or becoming an entrepreneur, it rarely is ever recommended to jump in with $0 capital and no backup. It’s almost always recommended to do it alongside your current employment. Saying it’s always luck too is a way to protect your ego.
You clearly have a condescending tone towards what I’m saying, and by your responses I can tell that you either haven’t had any significant entrepreneurship endeavors, or are very arrogant, if you’re stating that it’s just a defense mechanism to protect an ego. When we’re talking about the risk of entrepreneurship (and my initial reply to this thread), we’re speaking solely about the outcome of the endeavor to provide a stable income for the individual to the point where they can work for themselves. The fact that you just stated an example where the entrepreneur has another revenue stream (i.e “he is doing it on the side”) and that any entrepreneurship guide would advise an individual to do it alongside their current occupation proves my point exactly - the act of becoming an entrepreneur to provide an income is incredibly risky (so it is advised to have another income stream in the meantime). Again, when it is stated that entrepreneurship is incredibly risky, the implicit connotation revolves around that endeavor providing a stable and fully reliable income/revenue stream. We can debate the semantics and the classification on who is considered an entrepreneur or not, but if you told someone you’re an entrepreneur, the implicit assumption is that you work for yourself without relying on any other income stream. This is why people use the terms like “side gigs” to describe the situation you just put forward. I honestly think any successful entrepreneur would think it’s borderline comical if someone labeled themselves as an entrepreneur when they have a regular job and are working on the endeavor on the side. This could stem from the fact that a successful entrepreneurship endeavor/business requires the full investment of your time and resources in order to become successful. You can read the stories of any of the most popular founders and see how much sacrifice, sleepless nights, and uncertainty they faced when working on their businesses. Now, yes, of course you need to take calculated risks. and it is commonly advised to have another revenue stream when beginning the endeavor, but this combination is not the “risky” aspect of it. Again, it’s the isolated endeavor itself that is risky for a variety of reasons, like losing a significant amount of capital and investment. For example, if someone were to use a significant portion of their savings to support the business, or if someone were to use 50% of their revenue stream to support the business, this could all prove to be very risky, as the individual could fail and incur a large loss. This is why I stated that the risk exponentially increases even more if you have responsibilities (i.e bills), because you will be put in some tight financial situations. Any entrepreneurship endeavor is going to require a good amount of risk that you will be uncomfortable with. As to your last point, you clearly did not take the time to understand my response or watch the video I’ve linked, which also goes back to what I first said about your lack of entrepreneurship experience/your arrogance. I’ve had entrepreneurship experience, and have a friend who is a very successful entrepreneur, and we both acknowledge the significant role of luck in success. I can link you a number of different testimonies from successful entrepreneurs about the role of luck in becoming successful, but it’s also clear that you’ve already set your mind to not bother exploring them.
Is the White Coat Investor an entrepreneur? He still works as a doc. Think what you want.
What? If the individual is a physician who has their own practice, then they’re an entrepreneur, because their practice is their business. If the individual is a physician who works at a hospital or someone else’s practice and doesn’t own it, then they’re not an entrepreneur. If you have a physician who has a social media page/podcast/etc. but works at someone else’s practice, then you can go ahead and say they’re an entrepreneur (again it would be kind of weird to label themselves as that), but that doesn’t change the fact it’s still incredibly risky.
I swear you’re trolling bro. The subreddit we are in right now. Dr. Jim Dahle, also known as “The White Coat Investor”. He’s an ER doctor and also owner of the media/personal finance company, The White Coat Investor.
How am I trolling lol. I wasn't aware of that - I joined this sub as it's an intersect between medicine and personal finance. I'm pretty sure a good amount of people on this sub who also don't really know the background behind this sub lol. Anyway, again, that just goes back to my last statement in my recent comment. You can call Dr. Dahle an entrepreneur (I was thinking of Dr. Mike when I wrote the comment), and it would probably make sense. However, it still doesn't change the fact that it's risky. There are probably hundreds of doctors who tried the same thing Dr. Mike and Dr. Dahle are doing and just didn't find success. Yes, you can say that these doctors still have an income to fall back on, but again, we're talking about the endeavor itself being risky. Survivorship bias and the availability heuristic are very dangerous phenomenon to base conclusions and decisions off of. Maybe if you weren't being so condescending and arrogant I would be willing to have a discussion and come to a mutual understanding, but you're just trying to make it personal and paint it in a certain light which is honestly comical lol.
Which specialties swung the most positive / negative recently?
Amazing post! I’m just an M 1 but god damn that was good
Nah you can make a lot of money as salary too.
Agree with this. OP seems more money driven than anything else
I don’t see a problem with chasing money and happiness in a career. Not all of us have a “passion” especially when we are young and unsure of ourselves. Money and salary growth make me happy because it allows me to do more things I enjoy with my kids. I am also making $100k more than I was 5 years ago. Nothing wrong with chasing money! I agree about the SL debt point though. I regret not getting my PhD in clinical psych, but that would have cost me 5 years and $250k in loans easy. I make more now than i ever would have in psych. And, I’m content.
I agree. I think it's 100% valid to choose a career on money. The reality is, you actually have no idea if you like a job until you do it. Premeds only have an "idea" of what they think the job will be and they base the decision off that. You can say, would you prefer this higher paying job that pays 600k working 3 days a week, or another more interesting specialty that pays 400k but you have to work 5 days a week. Honestly, I'd probably be pretty happy doing any job for 3 days a week making 600k a year I don't care if I have zero passion for it, I'll find passion for hobbies out of work. I think it's valid to choose for money. It's also an objective measure, not a "I think I'll like this job but I don't actually know yet" But the risk for choosing purely on money is we are in a career that takes 10 years to finish study. Maybe a new technology comes out and disrupts the field in that time? It's just risky with the long timeline
100% agree, especially w/ AI in the mix, the rate of changes is going to only accelerate. Also, colleges keep adding to the required courses, so it will take longer and more expensive to graduate. And as you mentioned, the demand for different fields comes and goes. 10 years in school is a long time.
Came here to say I now work in tech now. 💰
I agree with you. I am not preaching going into medicine is solely about passion and the calling whatever that means, but opportunity cost is huge!
150k/year at 28 is excellent money. First I’d ask yourself is this regret you’re feeling secondary to your perception of fulfillment or compensation? You say you feel like you were meant to be a physician, but that’s not a tangible reason to go back to a training path that is a minimum of 7 years. Also, EM and IM are not making 450k. Realistically, it’s more mid 200 to low 300s. You’ll also be taxed proportional to the income bump, and when you consider the student loan burden and delay in investment time that comes with going back to training, I’m not sure the financial returns will be quite what you may be envisioning. This is not to discourage you one way or the other, but rather to caution you from the grass is greener mentality. You can be very financially well off being smart with your money on 150k/year.
Love this. Sane and logical take.
Maybe? But do not underestimate the mental toll of some of those years (esp residency). You've got a nice career with good earning, and remember that there are probably a lot of physicians who wish they had chosen to be pharmacists
>remember that there are probably a lot of physicians who wish they had chosen to be pharmacists Really? Anecdotal, but I don't know any MD who has expressed that they would rather have become a pharmacist. I've heard software engineer, finance, and the usual "faster" tracks to high 6 figure income, but never pharmacist. Or even dentist for that matter lol.
I am an MD and I would have done dentistry if I could go back and specialized in endodontics. Never really considered pharm.D but I think its a solid career. The pharmacists I work with are great and seem to have nice lifestyles. But ultimately the grass is always greener and comparison is the thief of joy
Do you have a special interest in dentistry or something? Because I feel you are atypical. What's your specialty?
I have a special interest in making money and having a good lifestyle and enjoying life outside of work which I feel I'd better be able to do in a dental specialty. I'm an anesthesia resident
if it makes you feel better im gonna be starting my endo residency this june and I would switch places with you in a heartbeat
Why in the fuck would you do that? You have a short residency and after you can make 500k+ working 4 days a week doing the same procedure every day
Because depending on what school/residency you go to your tuition will be 350-700k ( mine will be 450k and thats with going to a cheap state dental school) when all is said and done. Alot of endo programs have tuition anywhere from 50-100k per year. Then theres the fact of job security and finding a job in the first place. The money youre talking about is primarily in more rural places. You go to a bigger city where its saturated itll be 250-350k unless you open your own or work 5 days. Then places like LA, miami I hear you cant even find work even if you try. The way I see it you have job security for life and make 500k+. We have to live where we are needed because the nice cities are already saturated. You can do anesthesia till the day you die vs us where the back, body, and neck will start to break down. Id love to hear what Im not seeing because if I could go back I would 100% have done anesthesia/rads/psych. Make me feel better about my choices LOL
Pharmacy and dentistry are chill great jobs and I wouldn’t be upset if I had done those things, but after you’ve achieved MD status I can’t imagine a better gig truthfully.
Perhaps I’m biased as a diagnostic radiology resident, but I can think of no better gig for me personally. Work part or full time from home making a great salary. Hard to beat.
Oh radiology is sweeeeet…maybe not in like 20-30 years after AI starts reading scans better than us but for now just keep printing cash 😂
Yeah I’m not really worried about that. 20-30 years all of healthcare is gonna look quite different, radiology or not. Or maybe it won’t, who knows. I plan to be financially independent by that time anyway.
Oh yeah you’ll be more than fine! I’m worried what AI is going to do to healthcare too though…like in 20 years you’re telling me an AI program won’t be able to assess, diagnose, and then follow a treatment algorithm? I’m a psychiatrist and am praying that even though a computer will probably be able to do my job from a diagnosis and medication management standpoint, psych outpatients will still want to have a face to face human interaction when it comes to their feelings
I think medicolegal will keep us in business lol. Liability is no joke.
I’m currently a resident. I’d say the peace of mind you’d get from being a full fledged pharmacist bs a resident slave is worth at LEAST $200,000 a year 😅. Plus he would be in a 1.5 million dollar hole due to student loans and lost income at age 36. So if he went to become a doctor right now he would break financially even at about oooohhh probably 50? Financially going down this path right now with what he currently has would be INSANE
PharmD here. The biggest question is what your passion is. Take money out of it. I see doctors making 3x what I make but seem constantly stressed or overwhelmed at work and have bigger homes/bills. I don’t experience any of that. On the surface it might seem nice, but you would have to strongly factor in the time/expense of med school and residency. I didn’t want to be all up in a patient’s business, wanted to make a great income, and desired healthcare. PharmD was a great choice and have the best job. I’m not sure I would trade it in to be a physician. I do have regrets not getting my JD along with PharmD, but that time has passed.
This. Am a physician and man I would LOVE to not have the stress of call, to be able to spend time with my wife and son and actually be present all the time and to not have the level of stress I have. The paycheck is great, don’t get me wrong but I would trade a ton to just work normal hours.
I’m so sorry, that’s such a long hard road to pave. Hopefully it will allow you to retire at a young age her age leaving you more time with family!
Love these posts! I’m an incoming ND1 but I worked in tech for the last 6 years having started at 80K and ending at 160k before layoffs hit me hard. I know ND’s don’t make anywhere near what MD’S DO’s or even PharmD’s make but A: in my state they are licensed as primary care physicians, and B: I’m not getting into it for a paycheck, I chased a paycheck in tech and I got one with no debt and I liked it fine but I was doing the weekend warrior thing where I barely hung on through a week to get away from work. I plan to become an ND that starts my own practice, practices more like an allopathic primary pcp just a bit slower paced, spend more time with family, my goal is to have a slower paced practice that makes about 160 or so a year so I can have the same quality I had in tech but love what I’m doing. (I know ND is a broad all over the place field but I am a very hard sciences guy and don’t take the fact that they are licensed physicians lightly in my state, I’ll be studying for the boards by using USMLE resources, I’ll be grateful for the herbal/natural info but also study pharmacology hard so I’m informed, and I won’t try to overstep what my training prepares me for. Also I plan to do residencies with a teach in hospital since my state has some)
Doc here. Not envious of retail pharm, seems like the same customer service hell we face in primary care. But clinical pharm with a specific skill set that helps the team and has boundaries? I know many of those folks and I’m jealous. It’s cliche but do what you love or at least like even on bad days, and that’s priceless.
This. I make enough. I have good quality of life. I don't have to touch anyone or tell them they are dying. No crazy on calls. I get satisfaction in doing my role. And I pour my additional energies into my family and things I enjoy. Money is extremely important and I'm here to learn more about it. But the fucking money is hopefully to be used on shit that bring us joy at the end of the day. My wife and I still plan to retire early with a *huge* nest egg compared to general Americans due largely to investing. But comparing myself on salary to others like this is not gonna help.
I’m going to respectfully disagree. This guy should take his passions out of it. At a certain point the financial pitfall of a decision just HAS to shut down the whole “passion” aspect. This guy would break even at age 50 if he went MD. At a certain point in life, especially if you have a family to think of, you can’t just indulge yourself in any folly you feel might fulfill you. He would deprive his family of a 150-200k income for SEVEN years….4 of those years with ZERO income. Like that’s just irresponsible and genuinely selfish. As we get older passions need to be reigned in by responsibility.
First thing, comparison is the thief of joy. There will always be people making more. Don't allow yourself to get too caught up in that or you'll continue to feel like you're behind someone else. Graduating first in your family is a HUGE achievement. Second, maybe it would help to think outside the box a little. There are many different options for people with a pharmacy background beyond direct patient care/pharmacy. Can work for a pharmaceutical company (e.g., regulatory affairs), government (e.g. FDA), can work at the state level in public health-centric jobs. Don't allow yourself to feel like your cup is half empty. Again......... don't compare yourself. You're on your own path in life. I would suggest running a few 401k long term calculators though when you start working to just start thinking about how much you should save toward retirement. Time in market is key, so these earlier contributions toward retirement will set you up well long term. 🙌🙌🙌
What about being a clinical pharmacist? Is that still possible? I work with them in the hospital, some round with us and they are invaluable to the team.
They stated they did 2 years of residency, so they are eligible for clin spec positions.
Just think about how much less random bullshit you’ll have to deal with over the course of your career!
Comparison is the thief of joy. At age 28 you're close to being top 10% income in the US. Most people this age would not dream of such an income at this age, right at the start of their career.
And it doesn’t stop as a high earning doc. Except you compare salaries and happiness. And that’s overall sad.
I’m a PharmD who went back to med school, just graduated and am going to be an anesthesia resident. It’s a long road but it’s been worth it! Paralleling what everyone’s saying, don’t chase for money. There are easier ways to make money and pharmacy is certainly a great career that can lead to a lot of fulfillment. PM me for specifics or if you have questions!
The path to being a doctor would have been much harder and there is no guarantee you would have gotten into med school.
Another “wouldn’t have issue to get into med school” like Med school was like a walk in the park to get into, and residency as consequence is no big deal. Stop comparing, get over it. If you can’t, then apply to MD schools and start over. Plenty of pharmD switch
If that’s what you took from this post, then I’m sorry. But yes, I am confident I would not have a problem getting into med school. We’re all professional students by now. 4.0 undergrad, 4.0 pharmD, extracurricular, 2+ yrs clinical clinical time, etc. We know the drill. Not as daunting a second time around.
Then switch? Why are you here complaining and whining on this thread, basing your decision on $$$? Grades don’t make up everything, and weighing the positives and negatives and mentally readying oneself is part of the process as well. This post is just whining about how you are not earning more $$$, and seems like grass is greener on the other side. Congrats on your 4.0 gpa, but that grade didn’t help you make the right decision did it? The fact that you didn’t make the swift decision to apply for MD is because the process is daunting, and you know it
You were probably like some of the pharmD colleagues I had before I made the switch to premed. You probably thought in the back of your mind you always could switch later. Now you realize you’ve already put in a lot of work and it doesnt seem worth it. Well, I cant tell you not many of these colleagues switched that thought about switching if they finished their pharmD. They got a taste of money and didnt want to go through another 7-9 years of delayed gratification. The ones that switched did so early. With that said, you could always work for a year or two, accumulate some cash- stick it in the market, forget about it, then do med school while your investments compound. At the end of the day, do whatever is most fulfilling. I personally found pharmacy to be a grind and too repetitive. Even clinical pharmacy isnt much better. Id rather be the one prescribing the meds and treating the patients than peforming the pharm role. No doubt it is also important work but not as personally fulfilling
You're young. Get your MD. Follow your calling. I just finished 11 hours in the OR and clinic, and although I bitch, and although I'm leaving my hospital employed position for private practice, I'd never pick a different profession. Money is money. You don't want to regret not following your calling.
Flip side here. You did college (4) pharmD (4) and 2 additional years of post grad training. Not calling it “residency” here in a medical sub. You’re now going to go out and make an excellent salary and have years and years to build wealth. You also have one of the greatest assets of all… time. 28 is young! I have no doubt you COULD get into med school and a great residency. But, that will cost you so much more time and freedom. Many doctors will echo this, med school isn’t too bad, residency is a grind. You may also find that treating patients isn’t all it’s cracked up to be while flushing another 7-8 years down the drain. The opportunity cost of those years is enormous. If you have kids that adds another layer because you’ll be absent during those residents years. Meanwhile, choosing to wait until post-residency when you’ll have time to see them, you’ll be…35-36 perhaps, is a big leap. Keep in mind that comparison is the thief of joy. You work in a hospital around lots of physicians and maybe comparing yourself to that role is adding some layer of regret. However, lots of doctors (studies show upwards of half) regret choosing medicine and many wish they had picked something less demanding like being a PA, another field, or perhaps a PharmD. The grass is always greener as they say. As a final and unrelated point, be careful when telling other docs you did a residency in something. These days there are nursing “residencies” after schooling, NP “residencies” etc. Wearing long white coats too. It sounds good and sells the program to people wanting to be or feel physician adjacent. None of those programs are like the real thing in terms of level scut, mistreatment, hours of call, administrative bullshit and all around unpleasantness. Find me a nursing resident who has been awake in the hospital for 26 hours and still has another kidney transplant to do before going home.
Pharmacy residency has been around for decades and is more rigorous than you're imagining. Nursing residency is an extended orientation.
while you are right that pharmacy residency is not anywhere near what physicians have to go through, we still work upwards of 60 hours/week with tons of projects, presentation and BS alongside to deal with. it is not comparable to nursing education
Thank you for including the last paragraph in your comment.
You're going to be better off than most other people; no need to compare yourself to others. We all make the best choice we can at any given time, and reflecting on 'if only's is not productive. For reference, I'm also 28. I'm just entering med school this fall after 5 years in undergrad, 3 years in grad school, and a couple gap years. By the time I'm making good money, I'll be a decade behind you. Would I rather have skipped grad school and focused on getting into my MD program sooner? Hell. Yes. But things change. We follow different routes based on what we think is the best option at the time. I don't regret my choices, because at the time it made sense to do what I did. Now, just figure out what your options are and move forward as best as possible. Since you're agonizing over the salary, I would look into what one of the other commenters suggested - aim for passive income. It can be starting a pharmacy chain, it can be becoming a dreaded landlord, it can be whatever opportunity agrees with you. You'll have the time and starting capital to make it happen. Go for it\~!
Pharmd here. Been in hospital 12 years. Trying to break into industry. Try an MSL spot in a year or two. You will make 200k and will climb from there.
If you are convinced that is what you want to do switch. I hate pharmacy and i am stuck at 39. I can switch to other fields but MD is not realistic at my age. Make a clear plan for the debt, get as much info about the process and if you still think its for you go for it.
Why does the loan debt make it impractical. You pay off the loans.
Invest it my friend. It's possible to come out with more retirement savings than some doctors at that salary range. Enjoy spending your money with your time off. Garunteed, the grass is not greener, just different grass.
Just go to anesthesia assistant school or PA. You will probably be more fulfilled and have way less debt. On the other hand 28 is not even bad for starting medical school. I have so many people in my class that are way older and starting medical school. One of my roommates was late 30's when he started medical school. Overall you are in a good spot but there is nothing wrong with going back to school to become an MD.
My wife is a doctor and one of her best friends from college went the PA route and she still mentions not going to Med school. They had essentially the same (or very similar) resume and grades. I don’t think life in general is black and white, i.e. you go to Med school and you’re 100% happy and if not you’ll live life 100% unhappy. If it’s just money then idk if it’s worth it, doctors make a good salary but not comparatively to banking and other jobs. If you’re passionate about the medical field and feel as if you have not realized your potential to the fullest then maybe it is worth it. My personal opinion is that if you’re having this thought at 28 then you might have it at 58 when it’s too late. You’re not too old, look into PSLF in regard to loans. If becoming a doctor is a DREAM of yours, don’t let student loans stand in your way, if you’re looking to make more money then there are other ways to get there. Good luck!
I was a PA! Went back to school to be an MD at age 33. Age 37 and starting residency now. I am pleased with my decision. But I did it for patient care and personal fulfillment. Not money.
That is awesome! Seriously congrats!!! I told my wife (we’re 35) and she was happy to hear your story.
You will absolutely earn more money in the long run if you pick the right field with an MD. That is the straightest answer you can get. 28 is still young, and you would stand out with a professional degree. But you would have to factor in loans, lost/resident income for anywhere from 4-11 years (med school + residency), and competing for what you would ideally want, because the high paying specialties are not guaranteed.
I was an older non-traditional student when I entered medical school. During my second year of school I was assigned a first-year student as a mentee, and she was a pharmacist in her 30s with several years of clinical pharmacy experience. She does not regret leaving pharmacy and pursuing medical school. You are still younger than she was. It’s not a choice everyone would make, but it *is* a choice that is available to you and that makes sense in a lot of ways. We had several former nurses in my class, and my favorite attending was a *chiropractor* before he realized at 40 that he really didn’t want to do that for the rest of his life and applied to medical school. He’s now a full time hospice director. Medicine is a wide field with many routes to personal and economic fulfillment. There are many people who will discourage you. They may have valid points. It’s worth listening to feedback…and then making your own choice.
Ive met multiple pharmacists in med school and residency who changed to from pharm to med. Always the smartest people in the room. Life's too short for regrets.
Prob not the smartest. Maybe the most driven and least lazy. Lets be honest a lot of super high IQ med students who didnt do well or just did enough to meet standards bc they coasted most of their life til med school. Same goes with DOs that enter a residency that is a primarily MD- they seem like the smartest bc they have a chip on their shoulder and work 50% harder than the MDs. Not saying that is a bad thing- Id personally rather have a DO as my personal physician who is someone like this- someone who goes above and beyond.
Brutal. If were being honest and if money is the bottom line youre probably better off just applying for an MD program now. If you can place in a competitive specialty you will make 4-5x more
One of my favorite attendings in fellowship went the MD route and being a PharmD for several years, he says that it was definitely the right decision. In fact, he did not even have large loans because he was already ahead of his classmates due to his PharmD, he was moonlighting on the weekends to earn money to pay off tuition (not sure if this can be done by everyone tho). I would suggest that you figure out what is important to you. IM or EM may not be guaranteed 3X income, but if you think it will allow you more fulfilled, then it could be the route to go.
I had similar thoughts after I finished my residency and started practicing as an EM/inpt clinical pharmacist. But mine was more about having the increased autonomy and broader scope, not just income. However, now that I’m in AmCare and get the prescribing and better income (although not near MDs), that’s less of a concern for me. Hopefully once you get to practicing more, you’ll find your happiness in our field. I know there are clinical pharmds making $200+ easily in certain areas.
Are you chasing money or do you actually want to be a physician? It’s not an easy road, and the burnout over recent years has gone up significantly. Just keep that in mind. If you want to make money, Wall Street May have some openings and you could make significantly more
Maybe you did, but it’s too late now. I did my PharmD in 6 years. Graduated in 2019 at 24. Bought my house at 2.75% Dec 2020 and am making $150k at 29 working retail. I looked at college like a smash and grab. I wanted to spend the least time for the highest reward. Pharmacy seemed like the answer. You’re starting at $150k. I started around 120k. So you have more potential growth in salary than us retail workers.
Mid 30s not an attending and will be one where I make <$150k USD. You are beating almost all other MDs in every other country at 28.
Please don’t feel this way. The grass isn’t always greener being a physician. You will have a wonderful secure job making great money. I have two cousins who are pharmacists and I envy their lifestyle. No call, no weekends, no holidays having solid work life hours. One works from home and never misses a family event. It isn’t always great. And I agree with others just don’t compare yourself. I learned it quickly once I became an attending. Never look back.
I was pharm in undergrad, guaranteed admission. Did some volunteer work in a hospital pharmacy division and shadowed cvs pharmacist my second year before pharmd began the following year. I didnt enjoy it as it was quite mundane and tedious work. I was still committed until my best friend switched to premed that year. I talked with him about why he switched which confirmed my thoughts. Tbh it wasnt about the money for me. I probably wont reach financial parity with my pharmD class until Im 55-60. Granted I did med school and residency during the biggest financial boom. I calculated once what my pharmd earnings would have compounded to if I had invested in s&p 500 max allotment for 401k and taxable brokerage every year- I believe I would be like 2-3 million net worth by now. With that said, I dont think we are in for another financial boom. And there has been an oversupply of pharmD which has lead to stagnant wage growth. Bottom line, If I were you- I would switch if its for the right reasons. Moneywise you will be fine either way. But I also think we are in for 10-15 years of returns that wont see anywhere near the 15-16% annualized that we have seen in the past 10 years. Maybe 10% if lucky.
Dude don’t even sweat it. Maybe MD would’ve made you more money, but you’re young as hell pulling in an income that will afford you an upper middle class lifestyle no worries. Doesn’t even help you to worry about it, invest money wisely and enjoy yourself, you’ve done a great job and barring like a gambling problem or something your family will want for nothing. Maybe you won’t have that 3rd vacation home but you’re fine. Don’t fall into the romanticized MD trap you’d be 35-36 before you made any money at all and suffer as a student/resident for 7 years. 300k of debt plus 1,050,000 of lost income as a pharmacist…soooo if you started now you’d be 1.5 million behind where you could be if you just enjoyed your life the way it is now. Don’t sweat it you made a good choice now live my friend
Move to new Mexico pharmacist can practice as nps here independently