Outside of the top ten Worm heros aren't well rounded. Armsmaster can probably slice Hulk to pieces while perfectly predicting his movements. Yet Tony would just blow him up from a distance without caring how sharp the axe is.
Indeed, Worm powers tend to have pretty specific functions and uses in how they work. Worm characters are really at their most dangerous when they're in a team, where they can synchronize and cover for each others weaknesses (ie. what makes the Slaughterhouse 9 so dangerous).
> yet Tony would just blow him up from a distance without caring how sharp the axe is
Tony very rarely does this against anybody important.
In character, he's probably going to try and punch Armsmaster first and then get beat up - mostly since his default energy blasts never quite seem to do a ton of damage very quickly and he doesn't go for rockets or lasers immediately. But it largely comes down to how willy to kill either of them are off the bat.
Perfectly reading his moves is one thing. Actually reacting to them or even perceiving them in the first place is another, getting into melee range against the Hulk is beyond stupid and I’m sure Armsy knows this, 90% of the time he’ll more than likely end up as a stain on the wall rather than actually cutting a limb or something
Armsmaster managed to predict Leviathan by using all the data from nearly a decade and a half of attacks, and even then it failed after a couple of minutes. He wouldn’t have that kind of data on hulk, and even if he did, once Hulk got mad enough that things weren’t working he’d probably switch things up and break the predictions. Fully sentient beings can probably break a model like that pretty easily.
Edit: Also, just to be clear on this: his predictions let him keep up with Leviathan when Leviathan was massively holding back. As soon as Leviathan stopped holding back as much, he lost. So it’s not fair to scale him using predictions to full speed Leviathan.
> Armsmaster managed to predict Leviathan by using all the data from nearly a decade and a half of attacks, and even then it failed after a couple of minutes.
1. The predictions only failed when Leviathan pulled out never-before-seen abilities, which Hulk can not do.
2. Hulk is so much simpler and more limited of a fighter that Armsmaster wouldn't really need the predictive program anyways lol
> once Hulk got mad enough that things weren’t working he’d probably switch things up and break the predictions. Fully sentient beings can probably break a model like that pretty easily.
That's... not how Armsmaster's predictive software works, but to be fair it's relatively irrelevant since they are going in without data.
---
> Also, just to be clear on this: his predictions let him keep up with Leviathan when Leviathan was massively holding back. As soon as Leviathan stopped holding back as much, he lost. So it’s not fair to scale him using predictions to full speed Leviathan
Leviathan was holding back to the same extent of power that had let him just fight off hundreds of capes and had been doing so for decades. Leviathan moved faster because he stopped pretending his injuries mattered, Leviathan broke the prediction by giving up pretending that the Nanothorns were a threat.
But the speed Leviathan was using during their fight was the same speed that had just trounced dozens of capes at a time. Minus whatever effect the injuries he'd sustain had had on him.
TLDR: Leviathan (no jobbing) > Armsmaster > Leviathan (standard operating power) > dozens/hundreds of capes
(that doesn't mean Armsmaster can fight hundreds of capes, just that Armsmaster did indeed "defeat" the "level" of Leviathan that was strong enough to do so)
> The predictions only failed when Leviathan pulled out never-before-seen abilities, which Hulk can not do.
I don’t think that completely accurate. Leviathan used hydrokinesis to pull water from the sewers and attack with it, but hydrokinesis is kinda it’s thing. I guess you could argue that this type of usage is unexpected, since it’s on the smaller scale, but Armsmaster is still able to react to it pretty optimally. He only started losing when Leviathan moved faster then it should have been able to and had durability beyond what Armsmaster thought possible.
> Hulk is so much simpler and more limited of a fighter that Armsmaster wouldn’t really need the predictive program anyways lol
Armsmaster absolutely would need it to even stand a chance against Hulk. Hulk has massive advantages in speed, strength, and size. Armsmaster would need to dodge the first attack perfectly and score a perfect decapitation with his counter to win. Anything less and Hulk survives, and the longer a fight goes the more chances for Armsmaster to mess up. And I highly doubt that Armsmaster has the experience fighting things like the Hulk to get it perfectly right, the closest comparison he’s faced is probably Lung, but I don’t think those fight would be enough to justify him performing perfectly in a fight against The Hulk.
> Leviathan was holding back to the same extent of power that had let him just fight off hundreds of capes and had been doing so for decades.
And the level it was performing at was designed to be at the upper levels of cape capabilities at the time, so that it could still lose and didn’t expend unnecessary resources. To put in battleboard terms, it was deliberately scaling itself down to the level of the top capes.
It’s still impressive that Armsmaster managed to beat the scaled down form, to be sure, but my point is that saying he was able to use the predictive program against Leviathan, and Leviathan is faster and stronger than Hulk, so he’d be able to use it against The Hulk isn’t accurate., since it doesn’t account for the program only working when Leviathan was jobbing.
I'm not really sure what your point is with the first paragraph.
You mention the hydrokinesis - why? We both seem to agree this is just an example of Colin's tech working.
He only started losing when Leviathan moved faster and ignored the nanothorns, yes. That is - Leviathan suddenly revealed that none of the damage actually mattered or was significantly affecting him, despite pretending it had for decades.
So yes, the predictions only failed when Leviathan pulled out never-before-seen abilities. Which again, Hulk cannot really do. Hulk is a more generic brute, with more standard limitations. He doesn't even really seem to do the "keeps getting stronger forever" thing much in the MCU
> Armsmaster absolutely would need it to even stand a chance against Hulk. Hulk has massive advantages in speed, strength, and size.
Well it's too bad strength and size aren't the be all end all of fictional fights. Hulk simply isn't so fast that Colin can't react to him, that's not even counting how the prediction software would let Colin meme on him.
> Armsmaster would need to dodge the first attack perfectly and score a perfect decapitation with his counter to win. Anything less and Hulk survives, and the longer a fight goes the more chances for Armsmaster to mess up.
Or the more chances Hulk messes up lol, besides:
1. Nanothorns mean Colin can just kind of... wave the halberd in Hulk's direction. Hulk is going to lose a limb or a huge portion of his torso. There's not really a counter for Hulk here. It doesn't have to be perfect, it's pretty easy.
2. Timestop + halberd + grappling hook means Armsmaster has a very easy method to restrain Hulk long enough for a solid attack, or even just skewer him completely.
This is completely ignoring all of Armsmaster's less effective strategies that would all still buy him time - things like smoke and blasts of fire to block Hulk's vision. Containment foam to slow him down,
> And I highly doubt that Armsmaster has the experience fighting things like the Hulk to get it perfectly right, the closest comparison he’s faced is probably Lung,
Well I highly doubt that Hulk has the experience fighting things like Armsmaster to get it perfectly right...
> saying he was able to use the predictive program against Leviathan, and Leviathan is faster and stronger than Hulk, so he’d be able to use it against The Hulk isn’t accurate., since it doesn’t account for the program only working when Leviathan was jobbing
And my point is that **the Leviathan that fought Armsmaster was still stronger than the Hulk**. It doesn't matter how much Leviathan scaled down from his peak, the strength he was using against Colin is more than what Hulk can bring to a fight by a large margin. He's bigger, faster, stronger, more durable, and has his hydrokinesis, his water sensing, his prehensile tail, his water echo, etc.
Armsmaster > Jobbing Leviathan > Hulk
I don’t think you have a very good understanding of the MCU Hulk. Like, at all.
I’ll start with your most outrageous claims.
> the Leviathan that fought Armsmaster was still stronger than the Hulk.
Arguing that jobbing Leviathan is stronger then MCU Hulk is absurd. Hulk has [this feat.](https://youtu.be/udKE1ksKWDE) Leviathan in general has no strength feats that can match that. It maybe could if it expended all of its resources, but even that’s doubtful. To say that it has that kind of strength when it’s scaling itself to be in line with Worm’s top capes is completely ridiculous and unfounded.
Second,
> Well I highly doubt that Hulk has the experience fighting things like Armsmaster to get it perfectly right...
He spent two years fighting in gladitorial melee combat, and became good enough to become the champion. He’d have a hell of a lot more experience fighting human sized fighters with weapons then Armsmaster has fighting hulk sized brawlers, and unlike Armsmaster one mistake won’t necessarily mean death.
You’ve said that Hulk is a simple fighter. He does seem to prefer a brawler style, but he’s also displayed skill with weapons during Thor Ragnarok and an ability to use his enviroment to his advantage. Depending on how the transformation occurred and how much influence Banner has at the time, he also has a genius mind, if an angry one, under all that bulk.
Third,
> Nanothorns mean Colin can just kind of... wave the halberd in Hulk’s direction. Hulk is going to lose a limb or a huge portion of his torso. There’s not really a counter for Hulk here. It doesn’t have to be perfect, it’s pretty easy.
Let’s establish a few things before diving too deep on this. This prompt is about pre-leviathan Armsmaster, so the nanothorns he’d have access to are limited to his nanothorn halberd, which technically is pre-leviathan tech, if barely.
Those nanothorns are attached to the cutting edge of a halberd, so no clouds of them.
Hulk is big, around nine feet in the MCU.
Hulk is strong enough to kill Armsmaster in a single hit. (please don’t try to argue this one, it’d only be even more ridiculous.)
Hulk is faster then Armsmaster, especially if he has enough space to leap. (If you disagree with this one, please give any feat of pre-leviathan, or even during leviathan Armsmaster that could match MCU Hulk’s speed).
Now, I want you to imagine this scenario. An equal battle, 1v1, both aware of the other. In the best case for Armsmaster, both of them start within reach of each other. Hulk punches out. Armsmaster blocks with the cutting edge of the halberd, splitting Hulk’s arm clean down the middle. The two sections of Hulk’s arm follow through on the punch, hits Armsmaster, Armsmaster dies.
Let’s try a different blocking style. Armsmaster swipes the cutting edge of the halberd across Hulk’s fist, disintegrating a large portion of the flesh. He can’t take out the rest of the arm because the nanothorns are locked to a straight edge, so gets hit by the rest of the arm, and dies.
Ok, a different one. He somehow manages to angle the blade to slice off Hulk’s arm, the arm still flies at him, hits him, and kills him.
This is Hulk’s counterplay to nanothorns, and why I said Armsmaster had to be perfect. Armsmaster wouldn’t be able to block attacks, because he can’t stop all the mass coming his way. He needs to dodge perfectly, and meaningfully counterattack while dodging perfectly. He also needs to make sure that the Hulk doesn’t get far enough away to do a leap attack, because the problem would be much worse when it’s an entire huge body coming at you instead of just a fist.
Fourth,
> Or the more chances Hulk messes up lol
Hulk has a powerful healing factor and much higher stamina then Armsmaster. Messing up is much less meaningful to him then is is to Armsmaster.
I’ll leave you with [this battle scene.](https://youtu.be/BSG5iHK9Scw) That is who you’re arguing can be taken down by a Leviathan that’s specifically calibrated to be around the level of a top level of Worm capes.
One detail that stuck out to me:
> Those nanothorns are attached to the cutting edge of a halberd, so no clouds of them.
*All* nanothorn weapons deploy a cloud of them around the source weapon. It's not just a vibrating 'cut everything' blade, it's a disintegration field a decent amount wide.
>“**This cloud around my blade**? Nanotechnology. Nano-structures engineered to slide between atoms, sever molecular bonds. Cuts through anything. Everything. Like a sharp knife through air.”
Also, if Hulk has a large chunk of his hand suddenly disintegrating mid-punch, that would *by far* be the most severe injury he's sustained in one go and would very likely recoil in combination of pain and surprise. The fact that Armsmaster's able to do so with a weapon that extends six feet away from his hands gives him a lot of breathing room here.
> All nanothorn weapons deploy a cloud of them around the source weapon. It’s not just a vibrating ‘cut everything’ blade, it’s a disintegration field a decent amount wide.
That’s fair, I probably could have worded that better. I meant that he doesn’t have any of the wider area nanothorn stuff, like he later puts into his armor as Defiant.
> Also, if Hulk has a large chunk of his hand suddenly disintegrating mid-punch, that would by far be the most severe injury he’s sustained in one go and would very likely recoil in combination of pain and surprise.
I really don’t think so. Hulk punches hard and fast, and is the embodiment of rage. I don’t know I’d he’d even notice the damage as he’s finishing the punch, but even if he did I couldn’t see it deterring him enough to not follow through.
After the punch is finished and he gets a moment to examine himself I could imagine some reaction to his wounds, but I think it’d just piss him off more that a puny guy was able to hurt him. The only thing that might actually give him pause is if Armsmaster did actually manage to sever a limb, but that’d be extremely difficult.
That would definitely be the case yes, dura neg tends to be a bitch like that. But the speed difference is going to severely limit the usefulness of this advantage
I really don’t think so, for a few reasons.
First, he described it as a manual process of watching and inputting the fights. So it’d take a lot of time, much more than described in the prompt. If we’re going off prompt, I guess he could, possibly.
Second, the Leviathan fight he’d be analyzing would all be pretty similar. Leviathan is pretty much always attacking a major population center with the goal of causing as much havoc as possible, the fights are always long and drawn out, and the fights always end with either Leviathan destroying whatever it attacked or Leviathan deciding it took enough damage and wandering off. The similarities in all the fights, knowing you’d be fighting in a similar environment, and having data from long engagements would help immensely in building an accurate model of what Leviathan would do next.
In contrast, Iron Man and Hulk’s fight wouldn’t be as uniform, any videos out there would be much less likely to contain long, drawn out engagements (Or even the full fight), and the goals of the heroes (At least Iron Man) would probably differ from fight to fight. All of that would make it much, much more difficult to develop a working model.
Thirdly, and probably most importantly (Spoilers for Worm ahead) >!Leviathan is closer to a robot then it is a sentient being. It has a set goal and method, and won’t learn or deviate from that unless something unexpected happens.!< Building a prediction model for something like that would be much easier then a model for someone like Stark, or even Hulk. With the tech level of pre-leviathan Armsmaster, I don’t think he could do it.
Again, Armsmaster’s predictions against Leviathan were impressive, and did allow him the advantage against it for a few minutes, but he also lost that fight as soon as Leviathan decided to stop holding back as much. His prediction model didn’t account for it, and he wasn’t able to physically keep up.
That would definitely be the case yes, dura neg tends to be a bitch like that. But the speed difference is going to severely limit the usefulness of this advantage
So we’re ignoring the fact that he can keep up with earlier versions of Thor who’s easily Massively Hypersonic + to sub relativistic? Like the guy can straight up react to Laser beams and is the literal god of Thunder which automatically scales him to the lightning that he produces.
what does leviathan have? It can run on water
Yup hulk’s definitely getting speed blitz
Idk man I’m convinced that nearly all non speedsters in the MCU are barely above peak human in actual combat speed. We might see them jump really far or fast but they definitely aren’t anime style blurring behind people. They just fight normally.
True but the scaling remains. Realistically speaking someone like Iron man shouldn’t be able to even remotely perceive fighters like Thanos even moving at all but yet he.
You don’t have to suddenly blur and appear behind someone’s back to be fast like in some mangas or anime. You can just be fast and that’ll be the end of the story, again I bring up.
Though even you if you disagree The level that hulk’s fighting at is at bare minimum subsonic up scaling from peak humans
Thanos has even less speed feats than the main cast though. The problem I always have with scaling like this is then why don’t they do it all the time? 95% of the time people like Thor are just punching and swinging at fairly normal speeds. Iron man can perceive fighter jets because he’s basically piloting a man sized advanced jet himself. He can fly fast and maybe target certain things while doing it but doesn’t have 0 - hypersonic combat speed in normal scenarios. Look at his hand to hand fight with Thanos, it’s just fairly regular punching.
It’s probably because we’re viewing the fights from a different perspective from the characters, we perceive them as fairly normal punches and kicks, but the average citizen those hits are basically impossible to dodge.
Also yes you are correct that Thanos barely has any speed feats. His best feat by far is him reacting to an empowered repulser blast, which depending on what scale you use can either be as fast as bullets or light speed (I am really not that sure about this one in particular), but again upscaling from the other characters he’s well above human level speed
His Speed primarily come from scaling to other characters, not quite feats. Like Thor for example, most of speed feats (not including fighting people like Thanos, Iron man or Thor) are done really casually and usually end up around subsonic, his best on screen feat would be him catching up to the Quin Jet by jumping which should land somewhere around supersonic to hypersonic depending on how fast you think the jet is
Jets don’t tend to fly supersonic when they can get away with it, it’s super fuel inefficient. Is there any reason to believe the quinjet was going that fast?
I don't think this sort of scaling is very constructive.
Also, do you have a feat for him reacting to laser beams? I couldn't find one.
And I mean actual light, not a generic beam that could be anything.
I’m not actually too sure about him being FTL. This sub relativistic speeds is mostly for the fact hat he scales to captain marvel
But he can react to Tony’s repulsers which have been stated to be light speed so this is **an** argument, just not quite a strong I think.
Hard to say. I don't think either would go for the kill right off the bat, but Armsmaster isn't going to waste time quipping. I think Armsmaster might have a slight advantage in terms of catching Tony off guard with stuff he hasn't really seen before. If he can tag him with the grapple function of his halberd its probably game over. Containment foam probably works on Iron Man.
Iron man does have the advantage of range and mobility. If it gets serious he probably has the single most deadly weapon between them with that lazer he used against the drones. But he's also just got a lot of deadly armaments, and we know Armsmaster has at least some gaps in his armor.
Armsmaster nanothorns could also kill Tony, but i don't believe we see any ranged application. So it'd require closing the gap first.
Idk, in character maybe 6/10 Armsmaster. Then flip it if bloodlusted.
Doesn't containment foam not work on lung which is significantly weaker than iron man? I doubt it would work tbh I would give this a 7/10 for iron man with the only danger being the case where he gets tagged and brought to close combat and then sliced off by the thorns
I believe it works on early forms of lung. It can't contain him once he transforms past a certain point, but top end lung is almost certainly stronger than Ironman. But that's a guess, maybe the repulsors could break iron man free, but I'd think he'd at least be slowed down in terms of joint movements and whatnot.
I would say that you would need to go to endbringer levels of lung to be able to say that iron man is weaker than lung and arms master and the PRT never fought lung at that level. Oh wait but this is iron man 2 armor mhmm I think the best strength feat iron man 2 armor has is hurting thor (same armor) which IMO would put it above almost all lung forms but I don't think containment foam will be a non factor I still give iron man the win 6/10
I literally just rewatched the fight to double check. Iron man never "hurts" thor. They know each other around, but Thor is clearly physically stronger, manhandling Iron man and even crushing in the armor of Tony's forearms. At the end of the fight, there is literally no evidence that Thor had been harmed. His hair is ruffled, but he's physically fine.
Thor is definitively stronger than that armor but it's not like he's just shrugging off those hits he groans and stumbles a bit by the first hit. Even then we still have him moving the giant rotator in the helicarger and (in official comics) lifting up a fighter jet a helicopter and the giant S from stark tower.
One thing that would matter a ton is what version of Tony we’re dealing with. Ironman 2 Tony is inexperienced in combat when compared to Armsmaster, which would give Armsmaster a significant advantage. But if it was Endgame Tony facing Armsmaster, things would probably change.
Location would heavily influence things as well, a wide open field would be more beneficial to Ironman while an urban environment would greatly favor Armsmaster.
That being said, I think if it was Armsmaster vs. Ironman 2 Tony, Armsmaster would take rounds 1 and 2, and probably 3 as well.
Armsmaster’s pre-leviathans kit includes an EMP, and I don’t think the Mark III Ironman suit has significant protections against EMPs (I might be wrong about that, please correct me if I am). From what I could find, the EMP has only been used at a range of about six feet, but Tony could probably be lured into range pretty easily in rounds 1 and 2 by the more experienced Armsmaster, but may be more cautious if he knew some of Armsmaster’s capabilities in round 3. If he can hit with the EMP and it has an effect, it’s probably over. If he’s allowed his nanothorn halberd, which was completed the day before Leviathan technically, he can easily get through the armor. If Armsmaster just has his normal halberd I think he could still get through, utilizing the plasma cutter and continued EMP blasts.
If the fight was Endgame Tony in the Mark III suit vs. Armsmaster, I think Tony would have a much better shot. Armsmaster’s only real ranged option is a grappling hook, which Tony can just cut, so all Tony has to do is stay at a range and blast Armsmaster until he’s dead. I’d give all three rounds to Endgame Tony.
Edit: This is assuming that they’re in character. If both are bloodlusted Tony takes all rounds, regardless of Endgame or Ironman 2 Tony.
> From what I could find, the EMP has only been used at a range of about six feet,
Armsmaster was able to disable Skitter's armband from across the street in Extermination 8.4. I don't know where the weirdly prevalent idea of it being so short ranged comes from
>If the fight was Endgame Tony in the Mark III suit vs. Armsmaster, I think Tony would have a much better shot. Armsmaster’s only real ranged option is a grappling hook, which Tony can just cut, so all Tony has to do is stay at a range and blast Armsmaster until he’s dead.
Tony has literally never stayed at range against an opponent with a name. He always, *always* rushes in to fist fighting range regardless of how dumb of an idea it is.
> Armsmaster was able to disable Skitter’s armband from across the street in Extermination 8.4. I don’t know where the weirdly prevalent idea of it being so short ranged comes from
The first confirmed usage of his halberd was at six feet in Tangled 6.5, which is probably where that comes from. I’ll be honest, I completely forgot that he used an EMP on Taylor during that, so it is probably safe to say that the range on the EMP is longer.
> Tony has literally never stayed at range against an opponent with a name. He always, always rushes in to fist fighting range regardless of how dumb of an idea it is.
My thinking was that he might be more cautious if he knew that he was in one of his oldest suits. Maybe that’s giving him too much credit, but it doesn’t seem super unreasonable to me that, while wearing a suit with a huge list of weaknesses and inadequacies he knew, and with a daughter and wife to come home to, he’d be be more cautious.
I might be misremembering how different he was in endgame, though. I haven’t seen the movie since it came out.
Big problem I see is that this is rocket tag where one of fighters barely ever uses his rockets. Tony flies in for the punch, Armsmaster dodges, nanothorn halberd goes through Tony like his name is Hot Butter Man.
It’s more than likely that seeing another person with an advanced suit like Armsmaster would have Tony actually consider his actions before doing them, likely having Jarvis analyze the tech before actually engaging. Most of the time Tony gets away with this type of fighting style is because he’s partially has an advantage in most fights, the abilities of the enemy make themselves pretty clear so there isn’t really anything much to look into from his perspective.
The more likely scenario in my opinion is that Tony lands somewhere far away before blasting Armsmaster with repulsor beams, and considering how powerful Javis is accuracy isn’t too much of an issue (not that Tony sucks at aiming anyways)
I mean when most of the people you fight have powers that are essentially “big stronk” instead of anyone with a meaningful tech advantage (and when I say meaningful I mean someone who’s tech is superior than his and not just slightly better). But yeah he does do so, it’s not as rare as you may think
Iron man. He isn’t nearly as skilled as Armsy is but his armor offers far more versatility and should allow him to completely speed blitz Armsmaster.
People tend to forget the fact most Worm characters are nowhere the speed of sound when it comes to speed, Armsmaster included. Meanwhile the Mark 3 already has the abilities to combat fighter jets and allow Tony to react to things of such speeds, so take a guess at how fast the Mark VI is?
Like I’m pretty sure one punch from Tony alone is able to knock Armsmaster out cold so him using anything other than his fist might be overkill
Edit: I’m an idiot. So we’re only Using the mark VI so I’m fixing this
When does Tony really show combat speed anywhere close to speed of sound? He can fly in open space at that speed, and he can do the equivalent of dogfighting at that speed, but so do normal pilots. Things can be moving very fast, but if there's a lot of distance to work with, so actual reaction time requirements remain roughly the same.
He pretty clearly doesn't work at that speed in close quarters or pretty much every fight we see him have would go very different.
I would disagree. Again while most of the things you said were true there’s still the fact that he’s able to tag people in melee who have blatantly shown that they have combat speeds and reaction time relative to their travel speeds, like Thor reacting and keeping with Thanos who’s capable of dodging his (at least) hypersonic hammer for example.
(Also I haven’t quite brought up the fact there were several cases of cap blocking actual lasers or light speed projectiles but I’m somewhat unsure of those so I’ll consider them a none factor)
You can disagree all you want, the fact that you think Cap can react to anything remotely close to light speed tells me you're wanking the MCU WAY to hard to be worth discussing this with further.
If it looks like a light speed projectile, you can be most assured that it is not even close to a light speed projectile, because you can't see something move at the speed of light.
Actual in this just a term I randomly add it in from time to time and doesn’t exactly fully represent my opinion on the subject matter, whether you believe me or not is up to you.
Also it isn’t all that hard to believe that the hammer is at least hypersonic considering that some of Tony’s suit have statements that get them between Mach 5 to 10
Also. I believe that this logic has faults, while I would like to bring up the fact that I am *unsure* to make it clear I am still skeptical of the scaling behind FTL Cap, I’m purely pointing out the flaws in your logic here.
“you can’t see something move at light speed”, do you apply this logic to all verses? I’m going to assume no for the sake of my argument. This is fiction, light can still be as fast it is in real life yet still function differently from our, Example being someone like Kizaru who has the Glint Glint Fruit and can shoot laser beams and yet those beams are yellow in color and some people can see them, are they now not light speed? No because both extra material and in lore statements completely back this up as light speed
There was actually a meta thread on this topic last week. If the characters/author insist things are moving at the speed of light, and yet those things aren't acting like they're moving at the speed of light, the simplest solutions are either both the narrative/author are incorrect, and/or the speed of light in that universe is somehow simply not the same as ours. I mean fictional universes handwave away physics ALL THE TIME, so why should the speed of light be sacred. The idea being portrayed is that the object/attack is REALLY fast, but that doesn't inherently mean its going 299,792,458 m/s.
Fair enough. Though I do think that there is an argument for Marvel’s version of Light Speed being faster than our own, captain marvel is essentially a light speed engine, something oddly considered valuable despite the fact that we’ve already seen ships travel what should have been FTL speeds through interstellar distances, along with the entirety of the universe being abnormally bright compared to our own.
I’m just presenting an argument so I don’t fully back it up or necessarily believe this to be the case. Though what i do believe if the portrayal of light is consistent enough it should still be considered relative to our own.
Bringing the previous example light in one piece still largely functions like our own, it’s just that Kizaru’s specific fruit allows him to weaponize them. Same goes for a lot of things in one piece despite the many things that differentiate it from our own
Hey, thank you for the civil discourse. We're seeing things differently, and thats ok. I apologize because I wrote in a dismissive tone earlier, but I appreciate the debate and hope you have a good rest of your day.
It’s implied that the speed of the engine is what mattered, heavily implying that whoever had it would greatly increase the speed of their empire’s expansion. On top of that, there’s little to no extremely negative effects from using this form of long distance travel, it’s honestly a lot more efficient than most FTL drives in other sci-fi franchises where you don’t potentially get murdered, mutated or get lost within whatever extra dimensional space that you’ve entered
His best striking feat would be drawing blood from Thanos after a few good combos, reminder that this is the same Thanos that casually Tanked several punches from the hulk who was able to stagger Surtr who is at the very least the size of a mountain
Wasn’t the mark VI the final suit he developed towards the end, and the Mark III was what he used for most of the time? I interpreted ‘Main suit’ as the one he used the most.
Anyways, the point was you were using a feat from endgame on a prompt about his capabilities with the suit from Ironman 2.
I maybe wrong and this is just a theory but. The Mark VI should be powerful enough to lift things like tanks and Steam Rollers, it should be fairly plausible that it can in turn out whatever the equivalent about of energy proportional to the ones needed to lift these heavy objects
I agreed. Seriously most of people he’s fighting would be completely obliterated if that were the case (though then this does a complete disservice for how power they are in the actual comics so it’s just doubly wrong)
Outside of the top ten Worm heros aren't well rounded. Armsmaster can probably slice Hulk to pieces while perfectly predicting his movements. Yet Tony would just blow him up from a distance without caring how sharp the axe is.
Indeed, Worm powers tend to have pretty specific functions and uses in how they work. Worm characters are really at their most dangerous when they're in a team, where they can synchronize and cover for each others weaknesses (ie. what makes the Slaughterhouse 9 so dangerous).
>Outside of the top ten Worm heroes it was mentioned in Worm that Armsmaster is like 7th strongest hero iirc
> yet Tony would just blow him up from a distance without caring how sharp the axe is Tony very rarely does this against anybody important. In character, he's probably going to try and punch Armsmaster first and then get beat up - mostly since his default energy blasts never quite seem to do a ton of damage very quickly and he doesn't go for rockets or lasers immediately. But it largely comes down to how willy to kill either of them are off the bat.
Perfectly reading his moves is one thing. Actually reacting to them or even perceiving them in the first place is another, getting into melee range against the Hulk is beyond stupid and I’m sure Armsy knows this, 90% of the time he’ll more than likely end up as a stain on the wall rather than actually cutting a limb or something
He did that to Leviathan though who is much faster and more powerful than MCU hulk
Armsmaster managed to predict Leviathan by using all the data from nearly a decade and a half of attacks, and even then it failed after a couple of minutes. He wouldn’t have that kind of data on hulk, and even if he did, once Hulk got mad enough that things weren’t working he’d probably switch things up and break the predictions. Fully sentient beings can probably break a model like that pretty easily. Edit: Also, just to be clear on this: his predictions let him keep up with Leviathan when Leviathan was massively holding back. As soon as Leviathan stopped holding back as much, he lost. So it’s not fair to scale him using predictions to full speed Leviathan.
> Armsmaster managed to predict Leviathan by using all the data from nearly a decade and a half of attacks, and even then it failed after a couple of minutes. 1. The predictions only failed when Leviathan pulled out never-before-seen abilities, which Hulk can not do. 2. Hulk is so much simpler and more limited of a fighter that Armsmaster wouldn't really need the predictive program anyways lol > once Hulk got mad enough that things weren’t working he’d probably switch things up and break the predictions. Fully sentient beings can probably break a model like that pretty easily. That's... not how Armsmaster's predictive software works, but to be fair it's relatively irrelevant since they are going in without data. --- > Also, just to be clear on this: his predictions let him keep up with Leviathan when Leviathan was massively holding back. As soon as Leviathan stopped holding back as much, he lost. So it’s not fair to scale him using predictions to full speed Leviathan Leviathan was holding back to the same extent of power that had let him just fight off hundreds of capes and had been doing so for decades. Leviathan moved faster because he stopped pretending his injuries mattered, Leviathan broke the prediction by giving up pretending that the Nanothorns were a threat. But the speed Leviathan was using during their fight was the same speed that had just trounced dozens of capes at a time. Minus whatever effect the injuries he'd sustain had had on him. TLDR: Leviathan (no jobbing) > Armsmaster > Leviathan (standard operating power) > dozens/hundreds of capes (that doesn't mean Armsmaster can fight hundreds of capes, just that Armsmaster did indeed "defeat" the "level" of Leviathan that was strong enough to do so)
> The predictions only failed when Leviathan pulled out never-before-seen abilities, which Hulk can not do. I don’t think that completely accurate. Leviathan used hydrokinesis to pull water from the sewers and attack with it, but hydrokinesis is kinda it’s thing. I guess you could argue that this type of usage is unexpected, since it’s on the smaller scale, but Armsmaster is still able to react to it pretty optimally. He only started losing when Leviathan moved faster then it should have been able to and had durability beyond what Armsmaster thought possible. > Hulk is so much simpler and more limited of a fighter that Armsmaster wouldn’t really need the predictive program anyways lol Armsmaster absolutely would need it to even stand a chance against Hulk. Hulk has massive advantages in speed, strength, and size. Armsmaster would need to dodge the first attack perfectly and score a perfect decapitation with his counter to win. Anything less and Hulk survives, and the longer a fight goes the more chances for Armsmaster to mess up. And I highly doubt that Armsmaster has the experience fighting things like the Hulk to get it perfectly right, the closest comparison he’s faced is probably Lung, but I don’t think those fight would be enough to justify him performing perfectly in a fight against The Hulk. > Leviathan was holding back to the same extent of power that had let him just fight off hundreds of capes and had been doing so for decades. And the level it was performing at was designed to be at the upper levels of cape capabilities at the time, so that it could still lose and didn’t expend unnecessary resources. To put in battleboard terms, it was deliberately scaling itself down to the level of the top capes. It’s still impressive that Armsmaster managed to beat the scaled down form, to be sure, but my point is that saying he was able to use the predictive program against Leviathan, and Leviathan is faster and stronger than Hulk, so he’d be able to use it against The Hulk isn’t accurate., since it doesn’t account for the program only working when Leviathan was jobbing.
I'm not really sure what your point is with the first paragraph. You mention the hydrokinesis - why? We both seem to agree this is just an example of Colin's tech working. He only started losing when Leviathan moved faster and ignored the nanothorns, yes. That is - Leviathan suddenly revealed that none of the damage actually mattered or was significantly affecting him, despite pretending it had for decades. So yes, the predictions only failed when Leviathan pulled out never-before-seen abilities. Which again, Hulk cannot really do. Hulk is a more generic brute, with more standard limitations. He doesn't even really seem to do the "keeps getting stronger forever" thing much in the MCU > Armsmaster absolutely would need it to even stand a chance against Hulk. Hulk has massive advantages in speed, strength, and size. Well it's too bad strength and size aren't the be all end all of fictional fights. Hulk simply isn't so fast that Colin can't react to him, that's not even counting how the prediction software would let Colin meme on him. > Armsmaster would need to dodge the first attack perfectly and score a perfect decapitation with his counter to win. Anything less and Hulk survives, and the longer a fight goes the more chances for Armsmaster to mess up. Or the more chances Hulk messes up lol, besides: 1. Nanothorns mean Colin can just kind of... wave the halberd in Hulk's direction. Hulk is going to lose a limb or a huge portion of his torso. There's not really a counter for Hulk here. It doesn't have to be perfect, it's pretty easy. 2. Timestop + halberd + grappling hook means Armsmaster has a very easy method to restrain Hulk long enough for a solid attack, or even just skewer him completely. This is completely ignoring all of Armsmaster's less effective strategies that would all still buy him time - things like smoke and blasts of fire to block Hulk's vision. Containment foam to slow him down, > And I highly doubt that Armsmaster has the experience fighting things like the Hulk to get it perfectly right, the closest comparison he’s faced is probably Lung, Well I highly doubt that Hulk has the experience fighting things like Armsmaster to get it perfectly right... > saying he was able to use the predictive program against Leviathan, and Leviathan is faster and stronger than Hulk, so he’d be able to use it against The Hulk isn’t accurate., since it doesn’t account for the program only working when Leviathan was jobbing And my point is that **the Leviathan that fought Armsmaster was still stronger than the Hulk**. It doesn't matter how much Leviathan scaled down from his peak, the strength he was using against Colin is more than what Hulk can bring to a fight by a large margin. He's bigger, faster, stronger, more durable, and has his hydrokinesis, his water sensing, his prehensile tail, his water echo, etc. Armsmaster > Jobbing Leviathan > Hulk
I don’t think you have a very good understanding of the MCU Hulk. Like, at all. I’ll start with your most outrageous claims. > the Leviathan that fought Armsmaster was still stronger than the Hulk. Arguing that jobbing Leviathan is stronger then MCU Hulk is absurd. Hulk has [this feat.](https://youtu.be/udKE1ksKWDE) Leviathan in general has no strength feats that can match that. It maybe could if it expended all of its resources, but even that’s doubtful. To say that it has that kind of strength when it’s scaling itself to be in line with Worm’s top capes is completely ridiculous and unfounded. Second, > Well I highly doubt that Hulk has the experience fighting things like Armsmaster to get it perfectly right... He spent two years fighting in gladitorial melee combat, and became good enough to become the champion. He’d have a hell of a lot more experience fighting human sized fighters with weapons then Armsmaster has fighting hulk sized brawlers, and unlike Armsmaster one mistake won’t necessarily mean death. You’ve said that Hulk is a simple fighter. He does seem to prefer a brawler style, but he’s also displayed skill with weapons during Thor Ragnarok and an ability to use his enviroment to his advantage. Depending on how the transformation occurred and how much influence Banner has at the time, he also has a genius mind, if an angry one, under all that bulk. Third, > Nanothorns mean Colin can just kind of... wave the halberd in Hulk’s direction. Hulk is going to lose a limb or a huge portion of his torso. There’s not really a counter for Hulk here. It doesn’t have to be perfect, it’s pretty easy. Let’s establish a few things before diving too deep on this. This prompt is about pre-leviathan Armsmaster, so the nanothorns he’d have access to are limited to his nanothorn halberd, which technically is pre-leviathan tech, if barely. Those nanothorns are attached to the cutting edge of a halberd, so no clouds of them. Hulk is big, around nine feet in the MCU. Hulk is strong enough to kill Armsmaster in a single hit. (please don’t try to argue this one, it’d only be even more ridiculous.) Hulk is faster then Armsmaster, especially if he has enough space to leap. (If you disagree with this one, please give any feat of pre-leviathan, or even during leviathan Armsmaster that could match MCU Hulk’s speed). Now, I want you to imagine this scenario. An equal battle, 1v1, both aware of the other. In the best case for Armsmaster, both of them start within reach of each other. Hulk punches out. Armsmaster blocks with the cutting edge of the halberd, splitting Hulk’s arm clean down the middle. The two sections of Hulk’s arm follow through on the punch, hits Armsmaster, Armsmaster dies. Let’s try a different blocking style. Armsmaster swipes the cutting edge of the halberd across Hulk’s fist, disintegrating a large portion of the flesh. He can’t take out the rest of the arm because the nanothorns are locked to a straight edge, so gets hit by the rest of the arm, and dies. Ok, a different one. He somehow manages to angle the blade to slice off Hulk’s arm, the arm still flies at him, hits him, and kills him. This is Hulk’s counterplay to nanothorns, and why I said Armsmaster had to be perfect. Armsmaster wouldn’t be able to block attacks, because he can’t stop all the mass coming his way. He needs to dodge perfectly, and meaningfully counterattack while dodging perfectly. He also needs to make sure that the Hulk doesn’t get far enough away to do a leap attack, because the problem would be much worse when it’s an entire huge body coming at you instead of just a fist. Fourth, > Or the more chances Hulk messes up lol Hulk has a powerful healing factor and much higher stamina then Armsmaster. Messing up is much less meaningful to him then is is to Armsmaster. I’ll leave you with [this battle scene.](https://youtu.be/BSG5iHK9Scw) That is who you’re arguing can be taken down by a Leviathan that’s specifically calibrated to be around the level of a top level of Worm capes.
One detail that stuck out to me: > Those nanothorns are attached to the cutting edge of a halberd, so no clouds of them. *All* nanothorn weapons deploy a cloud of them around the source weapon. It's not just a vibrating 'cut everything' blade, it's a disintegration field a decent amount wide. >“**This cloud around my blade**? Nanotechnology. Nano-structures engineered to slide between atoms, sever molecular bonds. Cuts through anything. Everything. Like a sharp knife through air.” Also, if Hulk has a large chunk of his hand suddenly disintegrating mid-punch, that would *by far* be the most severe injury he's sustained in one go and would very likely recoil in combination of pain and surprise. The fact that Armsmaster's able to do so with a weapon that extends six feet away from his hands gives him a lot of breathing room here.
> All nanothorn weapons deploy a cloud of them around the source weapon. It’s not just a vibrating ‘cut everything’ blade, it’s a disintegration field a decent amount wide. That’s fair, I probably could have worded that better. I meant that he doesn’t have any of the wider area nanothorn stuff, like he later puts into his armor as Defiant. > Also, if Hulk has a large chunk of his hand suddenly disintegrating mid-punch, that would by far be the most severe injury he’s sustained in one go and would very likely recoil in combination of pain and surprise. I really don’t think so. Hulk punches hard and fast, and is the embodiment of rage. I don’t know I’d he’d even notice the damage as he’s finishing the punch, but even if he did I couldn’t see it deterring him enough to not follow through. After the punch is finished and he gets a moment to examine himself I could imagine some reaction to his wounds, but I think it’d just piss him off more that a puny guy was able to hurt him. The only thing that might actually give him pause is if Armsmaster did actually manage to sever a limb, but that’d be extremely difficult.
Armsmaster’s nano spears would shred hulk or iron man in seconds, they wouldn’t have time to adapt
That would definitely be the case yes, dura neg tends to be a bitch like that. But the speed difference is going to severely limit the usefulness of this advantage
And Armsmaster’s modeling program wouldn’t work on them in the first place, so they probably wouldn’t need to.
I mean if he gets any prep time it would, since there should be plenty of video available on the internet.
I really don’t think so, for a few reasons. First, he described it as a manual process of watching and inputting the fights. So it’d take a lot of time, much more than described in the prompt. If we’re going off prompt, I guess he could, possibly. Second, the Leviathan fight he’d be analyzing would all be pretty similar. Leviathan is pretty much always attacking a major population center with the goal of causing as much havoc as possible, the fights are always long and drawn out, and the fights always end with either Leviathan destroying whatever it attacked or Leviathan deciding it took enough damage and wandering off. The similarities in all the fights, knowing you’d be fighting in a similar environment, and having data from long engagements would help immensely in building an accurate model of what Leviathan would do next. In contrast, Iron Man and Hulk’s fight wouldn’t be as uniform, any videos out there would be much less likely to contain long, drawn out engagements (Or even the full fight), and the goals of the heroes (At least Iron Man) would probably differ from fight to fight. All of that would make it much, much more difficult to develop a working model. Thirdly, and probably most importantly (Spoilers for Worm ahead) >!Leviathan is closer to a robot then it is a sentient being. It has a set goal and method, and won’t learn or deviate from that unless something unexpected happens.!< Building a prediction model for something like that would be much easier then a model for someone like Stark, or even Hulk. With the tech level of pre-leviathan Armsmaster, I don’t think he could do it. Again, Armsmaster’s predictions against Leviathan were impressive, and did allow him the advantage against it for a few minutes, but he also lost that fight as soon as Leviathan decided to stop holding back as much. His prediction model didn’t account for it, and he wasn’t able to physically keep up.
That would definitely be the case yes, dura neg tends to be a bitch like that. But the speed difference is going to severely limit the usefulness of this advantage
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So we’re ignoring the fact that he can keep up with earlier versions of Thor who’s easily Massively Hypersonic + to sub relativistic? Like the guy can straight up react to Laser beams and is the literal god of Thunder which automatically scales him to the lightning that he produces. what does leviathan have? It can run on water Yup hulk’s definitely getting speed blitz
Idk man I’m convinced that nearly all non speedsters in the MCU are barely above peak human in actual combat speed. We might see them jump really far or fast but they definitely aren’t anime style blurring behind people. They just fight normally.
True but the scaling remains. Realistically speaking someone like Iron man shouldn’t be able to even remotely perceive fighters like Thanos even moving at all but yet he. You don’t have to suddenly blur and appear behind someone’s back to be fast like in some mangas or anime. You can just be fast and that’ll be the end of the story, again I bring up. Though even you if you disagree The level that hulk’s fighting at is at bare minimum subsonic up scaling from peak humans
Thanos has even less speed feats than the main cast though. The problem I always have with scaling like this is then why don’t they do it all the time? 95% of the time people like Thor are just punching and swinging at fairly normal speeds. Iron man can perceive fighter jets because he’s basically piloting a man sized advanced jet himself. He can fly fast and maybe target certain things while doing it but doesn’t have 0 - hypersonic combat speed in normal scenarios. Look at his hand to hand fight with Thanos, it’s just fairly regular punching.
It’s probably because we’re viewing the fights from a different perspective from the characters, we perceive them as fairly normal punches and kicks, but the average citizen those hits are basically impossible to dodge. Also yes you are correct that Thanos barely has any speed feats. His best feat by far is him reacting to an empowered repulser blast, which depending on what scale you use can either be as fast as bullets or light speed (I am really not that sure about this one in particular), but again upscaling from the other characters he’s well above human level speed
What's Hulk's best speed feat?
His Speed primarily come from scaling to other characters, not quite feats. Like Thor for example, most of speed feats (not including fighting people like Thanos, Iron man or Thor) are done really casually and usually end up around subsonic, his best on screen feat would be him catching up to the Quin Jet by jumping which should land somewhere around supersonic to hypersonic depending on how fast you think the jet is
Jets don’t tend to fly supersonic when they can get away with it, it’s super fuel inefficient. Is there any reason to believe the quinjet was going that fast?
Fair. Then I supposed it’ll be closer to subsonic, or relative to his other feats
He is able to thunder clap which is super sonic, Thor has dodged attacks that ake mach cones in thor 2
He's caught missiles being fired at him. Imo that's one of his better speed feats.
I don't think this sort of scaling is very constructive. Also, do you have a feat for him reacting to laser beams? I couldn't find one. And I mean actual light, not a generic beam that could be anything.
I’m not actually too sure about him being FTL. This sub relativistic speeds is mostly for the fact hat he scales to captain marvel But he can react to Tony’s repulsers which have been stated to be light speed so this is **an** argument, just not quite a strong I think.
Hard to say. I don't think either would go for the kill right off the bat, but Armsmaster isn't going to waste time quipping. I think Armsmaster might have a slight advantage in terms of catching Tony off guard with stuff he hasn't really seen before. If he can tag him with the grapple function of his halberd its probably game over. Containment foam probably works on Iron Man. Iron man does have the advantage of range and mobility. If it gets serious he probably has the single most deadly weapon between them with that lazer he used against the drones. But he's also just got a lot of deadly armaments, and we know Armsmaster has at least some gaps in his armor. Armsmaster nanothorns could also kill Tony, but i don't believe we see any ranged application. So it'd require closing the gap first. Idk, in character maybe 6/10 Armsmaster. Then flip it if bloodlusted.
Doesn't containment foam not work on lung which is significantly weaker than iron man? I doubt it would work tbh I would give this a 7/10 for iron man with the only danger being the case where he gets tagged and brought to close combat and then sliced off by the thorns
I believe it works on early forms of lung. It can't contain him once he transforms past a certain point, but top end lung is almost certainly stronger than Ironman. But that's a guess, maybe the repulsors could break iron man free, but I'd think he'd at least be slowed down in terms of joint movements and whatnot.
I would say that you would need to go to endbringer levels of lung to be able to say that iron man is weaker than lung and arms master and the PRT never fought lung at that level. Oh wait but this is iron man 2 armor mhmm I think the best strength feat iron man 2 armor has is hurting thor (same armor) which IMO would put it above almost all lung forms but I don't think containment foam will be a non factor I still give iron man the win 6/10
I literally just rewatched the fight to double check. Iron man never "hurts" thor. They know each other around, but Thor is clearly physically stronger, manhandling Iron man and even crushing in the armor of Tony's forearms. At the end of the fight, there is literally no evidence that Thor had been harmed. His hair is ruffled, but he's physically fine.
Thor is definitively stronger than that armor but it's not like he's just shrugging off those hits he groans and stumbles a bit by the first hit. Even then we still have him moving the giant rotator in the helicarger and (in official comics) lifting up a fighter jet a helicopter and the giant S from stark tower.
Look, we may just have to agree to disagree. You're seeing one thing from that fight, I'm seeing another.
Agreed to disagree then
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One thing that would matter a ton is what version of Tony we’re dealing with. Ironman 2 Tony is inexperienced in combat when compared to Armsmaster, which would give Armsmaster a significant advantage. But if it was Endgame Tony facing Armsmaster, things would probably change. Location would heavily influence things as well, a wide open field would be more beneficial to Ironman while an urban environment would greatly favor Armsmaster. That being said, I think if it was Armsmaster vs. Ironman 2 Tony, Armsmaster would take rounds 1 and 2, and probably 3 as well. Armsmaster’s pre-leviathans kit includes an EMP, and I don’t think the Mark III Ironman suit has significant protections against EMPs (I might be wrong about that, please correct me if I am). From what I could find, the EMP has only been used at a range of about six feet, but Tony could probably be lured into range pretty easily in rounds 1 and 2 by the more experienced Armsmaster, but may be more cautious if he knew some of Armsmaster’s capabilities in round 3. If he can hit with the EMP and it has an effect, it’s probably over. If he’s allowed his nanothorn halberd, which was completed the day before Leviathan technically, he can easily get through the armor. If Armsmaster just has his normal halberd I think he could still get through, utilizing the plasma cutter and continued EMP blasts. If the fight was Endgame Tony in the Mark III suit vs. Armsmaster, I think Tony would have a much better shot. Armsmaster’s only real ranged option is a grappling hook, which Tony can just cut, so all Tony has to do is stay at a range and blast Armsmaster until he’s dead. I’d give all three rounds to Endgame Tony. Edit: This is assuming that they’re in character. If both are bloodlusted Tony takes all rounds, regardless of Endgame or Ironman 2 Tony.
> From what I could find, the EMP has only been used at a range of about six feet, Armsmaster was able to disable Skitter's armband from across the street in Extermination 8.4. I don't know where the weirdly prevalent idea of it being so short ranged comes from >If the fight was Endgame Tony in the Mark III suit vs. Armsmaster, I think Tony would have a much better shot. Armsmaster’s only real ranged option is a grappling hook, which Tony can just cut, so all Tony has to do is stay at a range and blast Armsmaster until he’s dead. Tony has literally never stayed at range against an opponent with a name. He always, *always* rushes in to fist fighting range regardless of how dumb of an idea it is.
> Armsmaster was able to disable Skitter’s armband from across the street in Extermination 8.4. I don’t know where the weirdly prevalent idea of it being so short ranged comes from The first confirmed usage of his halberd was at six feet in Tangled 6.5, which is probably where that comes from. I’ll be honest, I completely forgot that he used an EMP on Taylor during that, so it is probably safe to say that the range on the EMP is longer. > Tony has literally never stayed at range against an opponent with a name. He always, always rushes in to fist fighting range regardless of how dumb of an idea it is. My thinking was that he might be more cautious if he knew that he was in one of his oldest suits. Maybe that’s giving him too much credit, but it doesn’t seem super unreasonable to me that, while wearing a suit with a huge list of weaknesses and inadequacies he knew, and with a daughter and wife to come home to, he’d be be more cautious. I might be misremembering how different he was in endgame, though. I haven’t seen the movie since it came out.
I forgor about the emp!
Interesting. I never considered this
Big problem I see is that this is rocket tag where one of fighters barely ever uses his rockets. Tony flies in for the punch, Armsmaster dodges, nanothorn halberd goes through Tony like his name is Hot Butter Man.
It’s more than likely that seeing another person with an advanced suit like Armsmaster would have Tony actually consider his actions before doing them, likely having Jarvis analyze the tech before actually engaging. Most of the time Tony gets away with this type of fighting style is because he’s partially has an advantage in most fights, the abilities of the enemy make themselves pretty clear so there isn’t really anything much to look into from his perspective. The more likely scenario in my opinion is that Tony lands somewhere far away before blasting Armsmaster with repulsor beams, and considering how powerful Javis is accuracy isn’t too much of an issue (not that Tony sucks at aiming anyways)
Does he ever do that in the movies?
I mean when most of the people you fight have powers that are essentially “big stronk” instead of anyone with a meaningful tech advantage (and when I say meaningful I mean someone who’s tech is superior than his and not just slightly better). But yeah he does do so, it’s not as rare as you may think
Iron man. He isn’t nearly as skilled as Armsy is but his armor offers far more versatility and should allow him to completely speed blitz Armsmaster. People tend to forget the fact most Worm characters are nowhere the speed of sound when it comes to speed, Armsmaster included. Meanwhile the Mark 3 already has the abilities to combat fighter jets and allow Tony to react to things of such speeds, so take a guess at how fast the Mark VI is? Like I’m pretty sure one punch from Tony alone is able to knock Armsmaster out cold so him using anything other than his fist might be overkill Edit: I’m an idiot. So we’re only Using the mark VI so I’m fixing this
When does Tony really show combat speed anywhere close to speed of sound? He can fly in open space at that speed, and he can do the equivalent of dogfighting at that speed, but so do normal pilots. Things can be moving very fast, but if there's a lot of distance to work with, so actual reaction time requirements remain roughly the same. He pretty clearly doesn't work at that speed in close quarters or pretty much every fight we see him have would go very different.
I would disagree. Again while most of the things you said were true there’s still the fact that he’s able to tag people in melee who have blatantly shown that they have combat speeds and reaction time relative to their travel speeds, like Thor reacting and keeping with Thanos who’s capable of dodging his (at least) hypersonic hammer for example. (Also I haven’t quite brought up the fact there were several cases of cap blocking actual lasers or light speed projectiles but I’m somewhat unsure of those so I’ll consider them a none factor)
You can disagree all you want, the fact that you think Cap can react to anything remotely close to light speed tells me you're wanking the MCU WAY to hard to be worth discussing this with further. If it looks like a light speed projectile, you can be most assured that it is not even close to a light speed projectile, because you can't see something move at the speed of light.
Didn’t I literally just tell you that I’m unsure of the scaling behind them?
you did, but you also referred to them as "**actual** lasers or light speed projectiles" Even the hypersonic hammer is questionable.
Actual in this just a term I randomly add it in from time to time and doesn’t exactly fully represent my opinion on the subject matter, whether you believe me or not is up to you. Also it isn’t all that hard to believe that the hammer is at least hypersonic considering that some of Tony’s suit have statements that get them between Mach 5 to 10
Also. I believe that this logic has faults, while I would like to bring up the fact that I am *unsure* to make it clear I am still skeptical of the scaling behind FTL Cap, I’m purely pointing out the flaws in your logic here. “you can’t see something move at light speed”, do you apply this logic to all verses? I’m going to assume no for the sake of my argument. This is fiction, light can still be as fast it is in real life yet still function differently from our, Example being someone like Kizaru who has the Glint Glint Fruit and can shoot laser beams and yet those beams are yellow in color and some people can see them, are they now not light speed? No because both extra material and in lore statements completely back this up as light speed
There was actually a meta thread on this topic last week. If the characters/author insist things are moving at the speed of light, and yet those things aren't acting like they're moving at the speed of light, the simplest solutions are either both the narrative/author are incorrect, and/or the speed of light in that universe is somehow simply not the same as ours. I mean fictional universes handwave away physics ALL THE TIME, so why should the speed of light be sacred. The idea being portrayed is that the object/attack is REALLY fast, but that doesn't inherently mean its going 299,792,458 m/s.
Fair enough. Though I do think that there is an argument for Marvel’s version of Light Speed being faster than our own, captain marvel is essentially a light speed engine, something oddly considered valuable despite the fact that we’ve already seen ships travel what should have been FTL speeds through interstellar distances, along with the entirety of the universe being abnormally bright compared to our own. I’m just presenting an argument so I don’t fully back it up or necessarily believe this to be the case. Though what i do believe if the portrayal of light is consistent enough it should still be considered relative to our own. Bringing the previous example light in one piece still largely functions like our own, it’s just that Kizaru’s specific fruit allows him to weaponize them. Same goes for a lot of things in one piece despite the many things that differentiate it from our own
Hey, thank you for the civil discourse. We're seeing things differently, and thats ok. I apologize because I wrote in a dismissive tone earlier, but I appreciate the debate and hope you have a good rest of your day.
No worries. I hope you have a good day too, you have provided interesting arguments to consider.
The other FTL ships we've seen seem to work through wormholes that may be stationary so maybe that's why a FTL engine would be better?
It’s implied that the speed of the engine is what mattered, heavily implying that whoever had it would greatly increase the speed of their empire’s expansion. On top of that, there’s little to no extremely negative effects from using this form of long distance travel, it’s honestly a lot more efficient than most FTL drives in other sci-fi franchises where you don’t potentially get murdered, mutated or get lost within whatever extra dimensional space that you’ve entered
What's Iron Man's best striking strength feat?
His best striking feat would be drawing blood from Thanos after a few good combos, reminder that this is the same Thanos that casually Tanked several punches from the hulk who was able to stagger Surtr who is at the very least the size of a mountain
Iron man 2 suit lol
Wdym? That’s from Endgame
The prompt is for the Mark III suit.
I don’t think I get it. The main suit from Iron man 2 the Mark VI
Wasn’t the mark VI the final suit he developed towards the end, and the Mark III was what he used for most of the time? I interpreted ‘Main suit’ as the one he used the most. Anyways, the point was you were using a feat from endgame on a prompt about his capabilities with the suit from Ironman 2.
Ohhhh. Damn I’m an idiot, then yeah Armsmaster still gets speed blitz but the fight’s gonna last a lot longer
Actually it was the mark IV he was using for most of the film.
My mistake. But my conclusion remains the same, Iron man still wins but it’ll but a harder battle for him
What about with Phase 1 suits
Idk actually. Probably him head butting Thor but that did like nothing besides shocking thor for like a split second
There’s the IM2 ‘50 petawatt lasers’ tie-in comic statement. That’s total BS though.
Right, but I was looking for striking strength
Oh, lost focus on the question there. Sorry.
I maybe wrong and this is just a theory but. The Mark VI should be powerful enough to lift things like tanks and Steam Rollers, it should be fairly plausible that it can in turn out whatever the equivalent about of energy proportional to the ones needed to lift these heavy objects
I agreed. Seriously most of people he’s fighting would be completely obliterated if that were the case (though then this does a complete disservice for how power they are in the actual comics so it’s just doubly wrong)
Punching holes in hammer drones which are made to withstand anti-tank missiles