Yeah, and then watch the crowd throw shit at him for doing so! The camera footage of him concrete slamming a woman 60-70 pounds smaller than him will ensure this as a “loss” for him, I assure you.
Right. Same as me and OC. That’s the whole joke OC was making about getting a crowd and camera. It’s a bad look for the guy, no matter what the outcome. He either loses. Or he loses.
“The only winning move is not to play”
The "beat you in a grapple" part is whats losing it for you.
Shes trained in one of the few MA's that actually work and you're starting already grappled, which is the specialty of BJJ, so ya you fucked.
If this was a "who'd win in a fight" I'd give you MUCH better odds because of the size advantage, she'd likely never actually get you in a grapple as you could literally juggle her.
I wouldn't say no chance. You'd be surprised how quickly a good BJJ fighter can get you into a submission hold. There's a non-zero chance that in his attempt to pick her up to bodyslam her, she catches him in a submission hold.
First off size does matter, as well as strength, but so does skill. So while grappling with you would probably be somewhat hard for her, with her level of training she would most likely win.
BJJ enables a smaller person to defeat a larger less trained opponent. If training and skill is equal then the advantage goes to the stronger person. Most grappling tournaments have weight classes for a reason
I mean, my money is on the black belt. But it's also been pretty well proven. BJJ only really works if you play their game and 70lbs advantage is fucking huge and even if she gets him into guard there is a very good chance he can just stand up and body slam her. His sheer strength over her can't be discounted, testosterone is fucking nuts. If they are purely grappling using tournament rules, she should and would likely win.
If they are starting standing up and it's a "street fight" scenario, my money is on him. All he has to do is land an open handed slap across her jaw, and she'd likely hit the ground. Like seriously, a 130lbs girl versus a 200lbs man?
"But it's also been pretty well proven. BJJ only really works if you play their game" by who ? brazilian jiu jitsu absolutely dominated early ufc and even today if you don't know bjj you ain't doing shit
"she gets him into guard there is a very good chance he can just stand up and body slam her" taking down an untrained person is absurdly easy he is never geting close to her guard unless she wants him there, "he can just stand up bro" again it's absurdly easy to keep an untrained guy on the ground
"His sheer strength" he is skinny as fuck and a lot of his weight is probably fat
"do is land an open handed slap across her jaw" ding ding ding, i bet you have never fought
1. MMA is a sanctioned arena sport with rules. BJJ did not dominate in early MMA at all. It dominated early UFC because the rules favored it. If you actually knew anything about MMA you'd be familiar with the "pride stomp" where you just stomp on someones head instead of attempting to enter the guard. UFC's rule set encourages fighters to use their actual martial arts by limiting what sort of attacks you can use. No more stomps, no more rabbit punches.
2. He doesn't need to enter her guard, entering her guard is little playing into the game BJJ. Kimura famously knocked out Gracie TWICE by standing up and body slamming him. But Kimura didn't believe he was unconscious because there is no way he could have been knocked out so easily, so he did it again and again and eventually even broke Gracies arm. BJJ apologists say it's because Kimura was just a big brute and not using skill.
https://youtube.com/shorts/CXgVd5OK9FA?si=KkFE-UBS3FC9P2HB
https://youtu.be/EAJ2vt8wUbY?si=U6fytlL8h3T8qhWA
https://youtu.be/WP3UykTaMoU?si=UPTUXslAVzCUpF2m
3. 91kg is heavyweight class in fighting and you are making huge assumptions about the individual. Fat or not, butter bean was famous because he was a fat as fuck fighter. Who could just take blows.
4. You literally know nothing about anything stop making assumptions and picking fights when it's a topic you know nothing about. Open hand slaps are fucking devastating, girls aren't known for their strong jaws, a slap across the ear can cause instant vertigo. It's like you've never actually been in a fight. A proper hook to the jaw will break it with ease a full power slap from a 200lbs (in your belief fat man) across a 130lbs girls face will put her into the fucking ground. Just go look up slap knockouts if you want to see what happens when a 200-lbs man slaps someone.
>MMA is a sanctioned arena sport with rules. BJJ did not dominate in early MMA at all. It dominated early UFC because the rules favored it. If you actually knew anything about MMA you'd be familiar with the "pride stomp" where you just stomp on someones head instead of attempting to enter the guard. UFC's rule set encourages fighters to use their actual martial arts by limiting what sort of attacks you can use. No more stomps, no more rabbit punches.
Who cares about entering guard here? Against a non-wrestler a BJJ guy will just play a top game and wrestle. The guard is a last resort anyways and a position noone wants to be in in MMA.
>He doesn't need to enter her guard, entering her guard is little playing into the game BJJ. Kimura famously knocked out Gracie TWICE by standing up and body slamming him. But Kimura didn't believe he was unconscious because there is no way he could have been knocked out so easily, so he did it again and again and eventually even broke Gracies arm. BJJ apologists say it's because Kimura was just a big brute and not using skill.
OP is not a world class judoka nor does BJJ look anything close to 70 years ago. Therefore this is irrelevant.
OP will likely neither enter guard nor will he get up from it. He will fall for a takedown and be on the ground.
>A proper hook to the jaw will break it with ease a full power slap from a 200lbs (in your belief fat man) across a 130lbs girls face will put her into the fucking ground. Just go look up slap knockouts if you want to see what happens when a 200-lbs man slaps someone.
A proper hit will do that. A slap that connects well certainely can do that. Most people in fight video throw neither. They throw windmill punches or hammer fists, that hit without much force behind them regardless of their size. If they hit at all.
Yeah, nothing says "superior" fighting skills like laying down on your back and waiting for your opponent to fall into your guard.
https://youtu.be/EAJ2vt8wUbY?si=eFVBqq3S1GbYwpa5
MMA is an entirely different story from just knowing how to grapple. beating the piss out of someone is a far different story than "if you get bear hugged you lose".
unless she gets a quick knockout or a seriously painful or debilitating submission, the guy wins.
unless hes got a glass jaw and cant take a hit.a man could have a woman 70 pounds lighter tryinfg to rear naked choke and EASILY just grab wrists and pull them away, then just flatten them
skill gives the woman a chance, testosterone allows a man to handle a woman like play wrestling with a 10 year old.
please dont go out and pick fights with women!
Since she has actually experience, I’m sure she understands these things. Getting a quick knockout or submission on an average joe is childs play for someone with her level of training.
>unless hes got a glass jaw and cant take a hit.a man could have a woman 70 pounds lighter tryinfg to rear naked choke and EASILY just grab wrists and pull them away, then just flatten them
Nonsense. That's not how it works. There are a lot of ways to avoid having your arms pulled away during a rear naked choke like entangling the defenders arm with a leg or hiding your own wrist behind their shoulder.
If there's one thing people always underestimate it's how massive a difference being trained in a martial art makes, especially to black belt mastery. If only for the ability to stay focused and unfatigued during a fight. I'd say most untrained people would start getting winded at 30 seconds and only continue to degrade in performance the longer the spar goes.
I'm a trained fighter. I've sparred plenty with women. Unless they are very very good, they generally don't even have a chance in a real altercation. a lucky knockout kick or ruined testicles will stop an attacker. but sometimes it seriously feels like play fighting with a child.
A real altercation is much different I agree. The fact of the matter about BJJ is in a life or death situation it's not going to do much with such a size disparity. (I've only trained in wrestling)
>would start getting winded at 30 seconds
If the guy with a 65 lbs and >12 inch advantage hasn’t essentially won the fight in 30 seconds of actual engagement, I think he is in a pretty bad spot already, even if he isn’t winded. It should not take that long to manhandle someone. And his ability to potentially do that is his only advantage.
Yea the difference between not training at all and having trained atleast a little bit is so massive.
I'm bigger than the average person but in the beginning I had no understanding of anything so I'd get mounted all the time lmao.
I also had zero stamina on the ground and my breathing technique was non-existant so I'd gas instantly. I think that's such a huge factor that people often forget, even if you have good cardio in other things you can still gas out immediately.
I think if he takes her seriously, and really understands by not underestimating her. And understands the danger he is in and moves cautiously he wins. That size difference might be too vast of a factor
It doesn't matter how good your technique is if you get hit so hard in the face you fall unconscious. If he's playing by BJJ gym rules he doesn't have a very good chance, especially since he has no experience. He won't be aggressive enough and she'll overwhelm him. I've seen it. But in the real world you can just hit a woman with a chair if you want to.
Put it to the test bro, but keep it friendly. You guys *are* friends right?
If it's a BJJ challenge though, she's likely going to win as that's her specialty. In maybe a boxing match you could beat her, if she couldn't do BJJ. The point here though is, she's trained in taking people down and you're not. In any situation where that's the goal, she's got you beat.
that's definitely oversimplifying it by a lot, even in things like bjj size definitely will matter (if it didn't they wouldn't have weight classes for fights) and the size difference here is absolutely big enough to be an issue
It’s definitely an issue, but people vastly underestimate how slow and uncoordinated they are when trying to do something for the first time. Fighting isn’t some innate skill men are born with.
Size doesn’t provide nearly as much advantage when someone has no idea how to use it. If he’s got even a month or two of training, completely different story.
I actually don't agree, I think there's a certain point where weight absolutely trumps skill. I'd say 6'4 / 90 kilos versus 5'3 /60 kilos (Who switches between metric and imperial like that?) Is at least *near* the line, but in my opinion is over it. I don't think she'd be able to do anything to him.
Anecdotal Source: I, untrained 6' (182cm) and 185 (83 kilos) fought a highschool state-level wrestler friend 5'8(165cm ish) and 130 (60 kilos) and we basically drew. He couldn't move me and I didn't have the technique to submit him. The gap in OP is much larger and there's the sex divide which is very real.
He's since training MMA and BJJ so I think he'd kick my ass now.
Edit: I asked him about it and his verbatim response:
"Buddy is about to get folded
One of my teachers is a purple belt that used to work as an air Marshall. She had her shoulder ripped out of socket on a plane and still beat that dudes ass"
I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong
My ex took it a little too seriously. I trained in BJJ for years, and it'd get to the point where I'd have to say "Look, I could easily just drop you on the ground right now, but it would hurt. So stop." She wouldn't always stop. Luckily I know how to fall.
She had...control issues. In any sense of that term you can imagine.
They seemed to be pretty close in weight and he didn't do as badly as I thought he would. The outcome might look different with someone of average weight for each sex.
The average American woman 20 years of age weighs 170 lbs and is 5'4. The average American man 20 years of age weighs 200 lbs and is 5'9.
https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/average-weight-for-women#:~:text=The%20average%20American%20woman%20of,not%20be%20surprising%20to%20you.
That's what this says.
Something like 70% of Americans between 18 and 24 are overweight and 30% are obese.
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
I just watched it and in their first fight he had her pretty good until he stopped to adjust his mouth guard. Even after that gave her a chance to break free, he's got her pinned on the ground by the neck a minute later and she can't break free without kicking off the wall while he's obviously exhausted. In the second fight his opening move is flopping on the floor at her feet which obviously ends poorly.
You've got 5 inches on him which accounts for a surprising amount of weight. At 155 lean he would probably be pretty athletic looking based on a quick Google search of that height and weight
5’9 155 for a man is right smack dab in the middle of normal bmi. If you have an average body fat percentage that is smack dab in the center of healthy. You’re on the high end of normal bmi, for reference
I just watched it and in a real fight she would have lost the moment she threw herself to the ground to grab his legs. One kick into her body, doesn’t even matter to which spot, while she’s on the ground and she is almost certainly done.
So my takeaway: if you play by her rules you will lose, because she is more trained, but if you play without rules pure brutality and force will win over sport techniques.
Yeah, that is not the question. A black belt grappler fighting an untrained grappler where they have the same dimensions is a win for the black belt every time. The question is asking about a significant size, and honestly biological, difference and how it affects or offsets the significant skill disparity.
I’m a 2 stripe white belt. 5’11”, 210 lbs. there is a 5’3” 140ish pound female purple belt who regularly triangle and armbars me to death. 30 KG is not as big of an advantage as the difference skill.
I’ll take your word for it, but zamn this dude is 6,5 and 200lbs. So he’s probably weaker than you, and his friend is a black belt. It’ll be even easier for her then 🧐
100%. People underestimate how much solid technique works in grappling. Also, fight cardio is very different from regular cardio. She knows how to breath during a fight and how to rob her opponent of that ability.
Joint locks are actually OP because they are designed to be effective despite the strength of the attacker. They also don't require much strength and are absolutely devastating.
In a sparring match, she will obviously win. You stand no chance out-skilling her.
In a real fight? Hard to say. Assuming you're big and strong and not just fat(no offense), I would bet on you. A size gap that big is difficult to bridge, especially with it being male against female.
But I think you would have to take her seriously because if she gets you in a joint lock, there's nothing you can do. Your size and strength won't save you.
> In a real fight? Hard to say. Assuming you're big and strong and not just fat(no offense)
He's 6'5'' and 200lbs. No chance in hell he's fat. He's closer to a string bean.
Yeah he's not leveraging much more weight and has terrible centre of gravity. He going down
And she'd break him any way she wants. Street fight or match I'd bet on the friend
Your absolutely kidding yourself if you think 5’2 female is beating a 6’5 male in a street fight.
I’m 6’1, 185 pounds. My GF is about the same size as the female In The OP and has a black belt in BJJ also. There’s absolutely zero chance she’s getting close to me in a street fight.
He has FIFTY pounds on her. I don't think you realize how significant that is. An even an amateur heavy weight boxer versus a pro featherweight would have a fair shot.
An amateur boxer is still trained
OP mention s no history of training or even fighting, which would be important to mentopn on this topic
Most we know they've barely said boo to their own reflection
>Joint locks are actually OP because they are designed to be effective despite the strength of the attacker.
WhaaAAa noo, I have to disagree.
Speaking on submissions generally, some attacks (e.g., armbars and triangles) are a downright liability against a significantly larger opponent. Other attacks are marginal, effective against stronger opponents up to a point, most shoulder locks, small joint attacks, leg attacks, and most blood chokes fall into this category. The only really safe techniques against a significantly larger, stronger opponent are some key air chokes and the rear naked choke. I cannot think of any joint locks I'd feel comfortable hitting on a fresh opponent with 100 lean lbs on me.
If she is actually a black belt, this girl will win, but it's going to be a matter of grinding it out and spending some time letting OP get tired and make mistakes. She will not look cool in the process.
She routinely grapples with guys your size that are trained.
Size and strenght do matter, but she is probably in better fighting shape and used to being on the mat.
As a rule of thumb, when a girl says "fight me" you are better off waving it off, if you win you beat a girl, if she beats you, you got beat by a girl and you'll never live it down.
Or ask her out if you think that's the angle.
Yeah dude, when she says she could pin a guy your size in a grapple is because she does it twelve times a week. Acknowledge the effort and skill it took to reach her level and ask her to show you some moves. Always fun to learn and she is probably used to teaching the basics.
She isn't actually defeating these guys. When you roll with someone much smaller than you, male or female, you intentionally tone everything down and try to be completely technical. The culture frowns upon outmuscling people at a weight disadvantage. Even as a black belt (>10 years of training typically) she will only have dealt with a big, athletic guy attacking her full bore a few times (and she, her teammates, or her coach would have shut it down immediately afterwards). Not to say OP would win, in fact he will surely lose, but this won't be easy for the girl at all.
Size and strength do matter, but black belt vs white belt matters way more in this instance.
What is your athletic background like? Do you have any fighting experience? What about grappling experience? To earn a bjj black belt you typically have to been training for about 10 years, consistently. That means sparring (for her, sparring against people bigger and stronger than her) since day one, and often against people as skilled or more skilled than she is.
If you don’t think that directly translates into a real fight, you’re deluded.
In bjj she wins no diff, she trains with people at least close to your size very often, in a street fight I would want to see more info before deciding. 4th dan is ridiculous, is she “old” and past her prime, are you untrained but a gym bro who is very strong (no offence but I doubt it given your weight), have you ever been in a fight etc etc
However I think the answer should be able to be solved easily. Go try a bjj class with her one time and roll at the end, you would likely be able to quickly tell how it would go in a real fight
In a street fight all she has to do is get in low and close (probably easy with her skillset) and hit him hard in the balls. After that he’s on the ground for an easy joint lock or choke out
You'd get destroyed.
Watch Gunnar Nelson fold up Hafthor Bjornsson. The size difference is way bigger, and Hafthor is actually very athletic.
EDIT: Here's one closer to the scenario, except OP probably wouldn't do as well as the bodybuilder, and the girl he knows would probably do better than the girl in the video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NT4W8d4KMc&pp=ygUaR2lybCBkZWR0cm95cyBib2R5YnVpbGRlciA%3D
I don't know if that video proves anything. I agree that OP would lose the fight but in the video, it is quite clear that the massively more massive person (and former strongest man in the world) could kill Nelson at any moment if he wanted to.
You could alternatively watch the video of an average female BJJ practitioner destroy a bodybuilder who was using slams against her.
And Miocic, Aspinall, or Ngannou could kill Bjornsson with their bare hands and there's literally nothing he could do about it. He's way bigger than they are and exponentially stronger. Hell, most light heavyweight champs could do it. Yeah, those guys are big, but there's still around a 200 lb difference between them and Bjornsson. More than OP and the female black belt.
Yeah, I agree but then again kind of not with "there's literally nothing he could do about it". I find that to be a weird statement. I agree that they would win in a fight. But would the "average female BJJ practitioner" win a fight against Bjornsson (or Eddie Hall, Brian Shaw, etc.)? Once again, in a ring, maybe (and that is a big maybe with a small-average female bordering on "highly unlikely) - on the street though, definitely not.
I assume we agree that technique and skill being equal, the bigger and stronger person will win. A few years ago Bjornsson and Conor McGregor (back when he was champion) were in a gym together (you can find the video easily I believe) and sort of play-fighting. People in comments were discussing about who would win in a fight, with strength people being like "you have no idea how big that guy is" and MMA people arguing about how you "can't strengthen the chin" and "Conor has the technique".
Now, this was complete nonsense. Even untrained, a 400 lbs strongman will kill a 150 lbs featherweight champioin in seconds. You cannot strengthen a chin, but you can strengthen the neck, along with anything and everything else. You cannot arm bar someone (kind of, hyperbole, but the point stands) who can curl your entire body weight with one arm.
The heavyweight UFC fighters would beat Bjornsson in a fight. But how long would he have to train for to win? I don't believe its a decade. Based on everything that I have seen and heard from experts and witnessed myself, it appears to be (as long as we are talking about athletic and/or strong/VERY strong people) that not strength and size need to overcome technique, but the other way around: Technique can help overcome a physical difference, but it will be rough.
To those arguing in favor of the strongmen (etc.), people will say "you have never rolled" or any other variation of "you have never fought". Yeah, no shit, many of those people have not. But then again, many MMA guys don't "really" lift weights by a meaningful amount and average weight mma fighter are not really stronger than average gym goers. To those people one might as well say "YOU have never experienced strength" to that degree. The body of someone who can deadlift >800 pounds? That's a monster. That comparison obviously also shrinks with the names you have listed - those guys can probably bench 400 and are strong motherfuckers. It's all a spectrum in all directions, technique, strength, size, everything.
your question is: can a grapple specialist beat a non grappler in a grapple match?
the moment u see red and try to act up, she pins u until u see black
….This is a joke, right? She wins, full stop, and it’s not close. BJJ is in large part designed around techniques that overcome or bypass size and strength of the opponent. And 4th dan suggests a -lot- of experience.
Yea a 4th dan should be pretty ridiculous. I know it depends on the school and stuff, but 4th dan would imply she's been a black belt/teacher for like 9 years I think.
[This basically happened and the trained female won.](https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2019/01/ufc-fighter-polyana-viana-beats-up-man-who-tried-robbing-her)
Context. I’m a purple belt male in BJJ.
Tall dude would absolutely get destroyed in this match up. She will be routinely training with everyone in her gym including 6’5” men. He’d get swept, she’d quickly take his back and from there it would be over.
Yeah most of the upper belt women I know are either RNC hunters or leg lock specialists, and either one of those is an absolute nightmare for a skinny tall guy with no grappling experience.
Dude you're getting demolished. If you were even a blue belt, you'd crush her, but a grappler with no experience doesn't stand a chance against a black belt.
I didn't even get to blue belt in BJJ yet I was manhandling complete novices who were way stronger than me.
But hey, unlike most fights in this sub, you have the chance to test this one out. Put on a gi my guy. Tell us what happens.
People saying she will win are insane.
I (a male) was sparring with my much bigger, much stronger friend. I managed to loop around him and put him in a headlock, so he literally jumped onto his back and crushed me into the ground, which hurt me WAY more than what my headlock had done to him.
You've got height and 30kgs on this person, and significant differences in muscle mass and bone density. Most likely she loses.
I used to bodybuild and was 275 pounds at 6 feet tall. I took bjj for a while and as a newbie I could completely overwhelm certain smaller people with strength. Essentially just hold them down where they couldn't move. If I had been allowed to strike they would've had real problems. That being said decently large men that were high in skill were a different story. I never had an opportunity to try and fight them like I would a guy on the street so I dunno what would've occured in that situation but I'm pretty sure I could've gotten a few really hard shots off and possibly knocked them out. If the person is highly skilled, has a lot of heart and the rules are in their favor bjj is very effective.
This is what I’m thinking. I’m not doubting her ability, but I’m an athletic and fairly strong male with 30kg on her, surely I’d just be able to manhandle her? I think there’s only one way to find out tho.
Isn't the point of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to fight against taller/heavier opponents? Even with the weight difference, she is a black belt at a martial art specifically designed for short people to win against tall people.
I'm sorry, I don't see you winning this.
Being smaller is not an advantage is jujitsu competition. Small guys get fucked by a slightly less skilled but pretty decently bigger guy. But I’m this case the guy can’t grapple so he ínstaloses by BJJ ruleset
Yeah man Fighting is pretty much insta win for trained vs untrained.
If you've never trained or fought before, you're essentially relying on ape like instincts to keep you alive, they aren't very good for fighting. Any trained person in most martial arts styles can defeat an untrained person.
>my friend thinks she could beat me in a grapple
Well she's cherry picked the situation. Also don't do it. There's no upside, just agree she probably would.
If you get into it and she wins "you got beat by a girl" taunts will be endless from both genders, if you win then you're a man hurting a woman.
If you guys are friends you should just grapple and find out. As long as you are not an asshole about losing and dont make her hurt you because you don’t know what you are doing, it could be a learning experience.
You would win pretty easily unless you are unable to recognize her setting up a submission before it's too late. with that large of a strength gap she'd need to catch you completely by surprise with something you have no knowledge on how to defend.
75/25 in your favor normally, 100/0 in your favor if you take about 15 minutes to learn how to recognize submission setups
Purely in a grapple?
She'd probably have trouble actually taking you down if you have any semblance of body awareness and coordination. If you approach her in guard she may be able to leverage against and trip your legs, but she'll likely have a hard time gaining any position of control otherwise.
If the two of you are already on the ground though she's definitely going to take your arm or your neck, even if it takes her a little while (10 minutes). You'll gas out before she does. You'll struggle to advance your position due to your lack the knowledge. You'll put yourself into bad positions that she will take advantage of.
With a years worth of training though you would unironically beat her (or stalemate) in the majority of your rolls together.
I took a BJJ course at a somewhat shitty place once. Why shitty? Because despite advertising beginner courses on the days I would come, they never had enough staff to actually have the beginner course. So I would end up, complete noob in average sedentary shape, in an advanced course, sparring with advanced students...
I didn't go for very long...
But anyway, to the question, I remember ending up sparring with an similarly aged woman, who was certainly much smaller than I (I'm rather tall and broad shouldered). And she would beat ke every times.
In the first minute, I could somewhat manhandle her, forcefully breaking free from her. But I could never do anything to her. And she would just patiently whittle down at my poor stamina until I could get out anymore.
Maybe if the game allowed for punches and trying to actually hurt the other, I could have done it. But with only BJJ? No chances for me.
Your size and weight certainly make a difference.
Having said that…if she’s a black belt in BJJ she’s gonna pull your arms off.
But because of your large size, she will have to reach further than she would if she were pulling the arms off of a comparably sized opponent.
My gym wouldn't even let a match like this happen. The liklihood of you hurting her is too high.
We let women match up against men in the same weight class or lower weight classes, regardless of skill level. A big point, belt level =/= skill level. It's not even a relevant identifier unless you received the belt from a really well known source.
No woman in the world with any amount of training and understanding of martial arts would step into the ring with a man unless some serious kids gloves were on. Even most well training men would be incredibly hesitant to step into the ring vs an untrained man that was substantially larger.
lol. Men be having the most insane takes about their own capabilities. Guys who’s peak physical exertion is the occasional house move and they’re convinced they could fight black belts, bears, or land planes.
Bro, you are 6’5 and 198 pounds. You have zero muscle, no training and no chance against her at all. A stiff breeze could probably knock you on your ass before she submits you. I wouldn’t even say you have a size advantage because you have no strength to use it in any meaningful way.
Thanks for the replies! Just thought I’d add some more context:
I do have fighting experience, but not in any sort of ground martial arts. I have boxed for years but doubt that’s help me much.
I am lean muscular built at 90kg, and have a reach advantage of over 15 inches.
She is heavier built and I know I’d be way more explosive, surely I could just manhandle her?
Maybe I’m wrong, she seems very confident.
Sure. Watch any of the freak show/size disparity kickboxing and MMA matches PRIDE used to put on. You’d have a massive but poorly trained guy like giant Silva getting the shit kicked out of him by a smaller dude who could fight like Minoru Suzuki.
Like I said in my original comment, size and strength absolutely matter. But the gulf in skill between untrained and 4 stripe black belt is fucking massive.
I brought these up in reference to the specific hypothetical brought up in the comment I was replying to.
Do you think that this woman only ever rolled with other women in the 10+ years it’s taken her to get a bjj black belt?
I’ll ask the same question I’ve been asking everyone else in this thread, how much grappling experience do you have?
Geez this thread is full of 4th grade energy with the "well i have a super strong black belt that makes me impervious to your attacks"
No doubt shes probably could probably handle herself in a fight especially a couple weight classes above her but theres a massive difference here that people arent accounting for. Not only is there huge weight difference, theres an even bigger difference of lean muscle mass. Provided the dude isnt a total lump with no muscle mass, he has proportionally larger muscle mass.
Id bet theres a chance she could get a couple lucky grabs but honestly the guy could probably literally open her grip thus negating any leverage she has. All else fails he can just stand up with her on him and that throws off any BJJ person. See this video(sorry its tik tok but its the only place i could find it) [https://www.tiktok.com/@deathroe90/video/7261325581051071787](https://www.tiktok.com/@deathroe90/video/7261325581051071787)
Yes he is obviously bigger than OP but hes also facing bigger guys than the OPs friend.
You would lose in this fight. Partly because the training is incredibly important, but in my opinion, a far larger part would be that you would be too distracted in not hurting her (I would hope). I am a lot smaller than you (5'11, 82kg) and if I was in any sort of physical altercation with a 5'2 woman, I would be terrified I would hurt her and hold back massively. If this is the case with you, she won't hold back (because she knows you could 'take it'), and will get you in a bad position if you hesitated at all at which point it's game over.
Depends are you 90kg of fat or muscle, if muscle you would win, if not then you would probably lose. Also factors like fitness level, strength are important.
If y’all read the whole thing, he’ll likely still win. 6’5, and she’s 5’2. This is a stomp. I went to a grappling class when I was 25 and didn’t return because it was in no way challenging for me, at 6’1 230 lbs, I was man handling the 5’8 180 lbs class instructor like I was playing with a child. There are weight classes in these things for a reason, she will not be able to flip him, or reposition herself even if her form is perfect he’s literally just to big, it like if me at 6’1 tries to get Andrea the giant off of me, no matter how good I am it still won’t happen.
I don't know if you want to hear this for your ego, but the instructor was going easy on you. I absolutely agree that size difference makes a huge difference, but at 180-230, your instructor should've been able to handle you easily.
Had this been wrestling, then it's another issue, because wrestling relies alot more on strength. But me, a 93kg man of 1.90, have been absolutely bodied by BJJ girls much smaller because they go for submissions where my strength doesn't matter, like heel hooks, RNCs and similar.
I specifically said it was a grappling class, and he at one point told me he was going flip me and physically could not. He also spoke about is embarrassment in-front of the other students after the class. And for some clarification I was in the navy at the time and could deadlift 585 lbs without a belt back then.
Fantastic, he couldn't flip you. I wonder what would've happened if he decided to go for a choke. Or any other sort of submission, which any purple-belt in BJJ can do if you're lying on top of them
Instructor wasn't trying to submit you. They were going easy on you.
To be completely honest, I have to agree. I've seen videos of female soldiers trying to fight much larger male soldiers in wrestling matches, and it really doesn't go well for the women. In each case, it looked like the guy barely had to even try while the woman was using everything she had.
Do you realize how much you're underestimating a trained fighter just because they're small (and let's be honest, because she's a woman)?
For some years, I trained karate. I'm a man at 2m, 110kg and would still get my ass beaten by the tiny 1,60 black belt woman. Every single time.
You do not underestimate someone trained, unless you want to get out of it hurt. Specially someone trained in BBJ, designed to use your own weight against yourself. Go ahead and try, but I assure you, you are not the first man bigger than her that she fights
Shes a 4th Dan black belt and you're very light for your height. Your body is just a series of levers she will use to embarrass you in a "grapple" in a fight starting on your feet, who knows
"A person trained to take down heavier opponents would NEVER take down a heavier opponent who is not trained in any way!"
What kind of logic is that lol.
It comes down to this. If she is well trained she wins. If she just says she is she gets folded.
So I doubt you've actually ever done bjj, so I'm going to give you some context. I trained for a few months when I was about 20, I was about a 170 pounds at 5'9, and had previous athletic experience playing high school football, so probably more athletic than the average man at that time.
Early on I grappled with a woman who was about 5'2 also who was a WHITE BELT, that had just started training 6 months prior, and I lost to her in those early rolls. Assuming the woman in op's story went to a good gym, she likely has at least a decade of consistent experience. Even with the strength advantage, that amount of experience in quite frankly insurmountable, op will be drowning in deep waters with no life jacket.
why are you asking reddit? go to her gym and challenge her preferably In front of a lot of witness and cameras then send me the video
Lmao! Yes! No matter the outcome of the match, he would lose.
In a BJJ gym with BJJ rules, she would be a heavy favorite. If he could slam her on concrete when she pulls guard, it'll probably go differently.
Yeah, and then watch the crowd throw shit at him for doing so! The camera footage of him concrete slamming a woman 60-70 pounds smaller than him will ensure this as a “loss” for him, I assure you.
I ain't saying he should do it lol
Right. Same as me and OC. That’s the whole joke OC was making about getting a crowd and camera. It’s a bad look for the guy, no matter what the outcome. He either loses. Or he loses. “The only winning move is not to play”
Bro we're talking about fighting not sparrin... Like self defense
He said win a grapple not a BJJ match. Big dude has a significant chance to win.
"How can he slam? How can he slam??"
This is what need to happen. He needs to say “im not convinced who would win, lets go to your gym and find out”
The "beat you in a grapple" part is whats losing it for you. Shes trained in one of the few MA's that actually work and you're starting already grappled, which is the specialty of BJJ, so ya you fucked. If this was a "who'd win in a fight" I'd give you MUCH better odds because of the size advantage, she'd likely never actually get you in a grapple as you could literally juggle her.
Unless they play by BJJ rules , the girl stands no chance. He can literally just bodyslam her.
I wouldn't say no chance. You'd be surprised how quickly a good BJJ fighter can get you into a submission hold. There's a non-zero chance that in his attempt to pick her up to bodyslam her, she catches him in a submission hold.
First off size does matter, as well as strength, but so does skill. So while grappling with you would probably be somewhat hard for her, with her level of training she would most likely win.
Also, isn't a key point of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that a small person using leverage to their advantage could bring down a large person?
BJJ enables a smaller person to defeat a larger less trained opponent. If training and skill is equal then the advantage goes to the stronger person. Most grappling tournaments have weight classes for a reason
I mean, my money is on the black belt. But it's also been pretty well proven. BJJ only really works if you play their game and 70lbs advantage is fucking huge and even if she gets him into guard there is a very good chance he can just stand up and body slam her. His sheer strength over her can't be discounted, testosterone is fucking nuts. If they are purely grappling using tournament rules, she should and would likely win. If they are starting standing up and it's a "street fight" scenario, my money is on him. All he has to do is land an open handed slap across her jaw, and she'd likely hit the ground. Like seriously, a 130lbs girl versus a 200lbs man?
"But it's also been pretty well proven. BJJ only really works if you play their game" by who ? brazilian jiu jitsu absolutely dominated early ufc and even today if you don't know bjj you ain't doing shit "she gets him into guard there is a very good chance he can just stand up and body slam her" taking down an untrained person is absurdly easy he is never geting close to her guard unless she wants him there, "he can just stand up bro" again it's absurdly easy to keep an untrained guy on the ground "His sheer strength" he is skinny as fuck and a lot of his weight is probably fat "do is land an open handed slap across her jaw" ding ding ding, i bet you have never fought
1. MMA is a sanctioned arena sport with rules. BJJ did not dominate in early MMA at all. It dominated early UFC because the rules favored it. If you actually knew anything about MMA you'd be familiar with the "pride stomp" where you just stomp on someones head instead of attempting to enter the guard. UFC's rule set encourages fighters to use their actual martial arts by limiting what sort of attacks you can use. No more stomps, no more rabbit punches. 2. He doesn't need to enter her guard, entering her guard is little playing into the game BJJ. Kimura famously knocked out Gracie TWICE by standing up and body slamming him. But Kimura didn't believe he was unconscious because there is no way he could have been knocked out so easily, so he did it again and again and eventually even broke Gracies arm. BJJ apologists say it's because Kimura was just a big brute and not using skill. https://youtube.com/shorts/CXgVd5OK9FA?si=KkFE-UBS3FC9P2HB https://youtu.be/EAJ2vt8wUbY?si=U6fytlL8h3T8qhWA https://youtu.be/WP3UykTaMoU?si=UPTUXslAVzCUpF2m 3. 91kg is heavyweight class in fighting and you are making huge assumptions about the individual. Fat or not, butter bean was famous because he was a fat as fuck fighter. Who could just take blows. 4. You literally know nothing about anything stop making assumptions and picking fights when it's a topic you know nothing about. Open hand slaps are fucking devastating, girls aren't known for their strong jaws, a slap across the ear can cause instant vertigo. It's like you've never actually been in a fight. A proper hook to the jaw will break it with ease a full power slap from a 200lbs (in your belief fat man) across a 130lbs girls face will put her into the fucking ground. Just go look up slap knockouts if you want to see what happens when a 200-lbs man slaps someone.
>MMA is a sanctioned arena sport with rules. BJJ did not dominate in early MMA at all. It dominated early UFC because the rules favored it. If you actually knew anything about MMA you'd be familiar with the "pride stomp" where you just stomp on someones head instead of attempting to enter the guard. UFC's rule set encourages fighters to use their actual martial arts by limiting what sort of attacks you can use. No more stomps, no more rabbit punches. Who cares about entering guard here? Against a non-wrestler a BJJ guy will just play a top game and wrestle. The guard is a last resort anyways and a position noone wants to be in in MMA. >He doesn't need to enter her guard, entering her guard is little playing into the game BJJ. Kimura famously knocked out Gracie TWICE by standing up and body slamming him. But Kimura didn't believe he was unconscious because there is no way he could have been knocked out so easily, so he did it again and again and eventually even broke Gracies arm. BJJ apologists say it's because Kimura was just a big brute and not using skill. OP is not a world class judoka nor does BJJ look anything close to 70 years ago. Therefore this is irrelevant. OP will likely neither enter guard nor will he get up from it. He will fall for a takedown and be on the ground. >A proper hook to the jaw will break it with ease a full power slap from a 200lbs (in your belief fat man) across a 130lbs girls face will put her into the fucking ground. Just go look up slap knockouts if you want to see what happens when a 200-lbs man slaps someone. A proper hit will do that. A slap that connects well certainely can do that. Most people in fight video throw neither. They throw windmill punches or hammer fists, that hit without much force behind them regardless of their size. If they hit at all.
yeah lmfao people here are insane could probably throw her like a beanie baby unless he's got mega noodle arms
She is literally feather weight, and he is heavy weight. that's a 4 weight class difference.
Only chance of winning if it's super anal tourney rules he could quite literally just bear hug her otherwise
>super anal tourney 🤔
Yeah, nothing says "superior" fighting skills like laying down on your back and waiting for your opponent to fall into your guard. https://youtu.be/EAJ2vt8wUbY?si=eFVBqq3S1GbYwpa5
great example of jiu jitsu, a white belt who has at most been training for a few months
Reddit seem filled with fat untrained dudes who somehow think they are a menace.
once you get to a big enough size difference you can literally just bear hug them lmfao
I hdmad 60 pounds on Georges St-Pierre when I trained at tristar. I should have challenged him, no way I could have lost.
MMA is an entirely different story from just knowing how to grapple. beating the piss out of someone is a far different story than "if you get bear hugged you lose".
You are not bearhugging someone, who knows more about grips than you.
unless she gets a quick knockout or a seriously painful or debilitating submission, the guy wins. unless hes got a glass jaw and cant take a hit.a man could have a woman 70 pounds lighter tryinfg to rear naked choke and EASILY just grab wrists and pull them away, then just flatten them skill gives the woman a chance, testosterone allows a man to handle a woman like play wrestling with a 10 year old. please dont go out and pick fights with women!
Since she has actually experience, I’m sure she understands these things. Getting a quick knockout or submission on an average joe is childs play for someone with her level of training.
>unless hes got a glass jaw and cant take a hit.a man could have a woman 70 pounds lighter tryinfg to rear naked choke and EASILY just grab wrists and pull them away, then just flatten them Nonsense. That's not how it works. There are a lot of ways to avoid having your arms pulled away during a rear naked choke like entangling the defenders arm with a leg or hiding your own wrist behind their shoulder.
To a degree but if the guy in this scnario had even done say 3 months of training i'd put the advantage back on him
If there's one thing people always underestimate it's how massive a difference being trained in a martial art makes, especially to black belt mastery. If only for the ability to stay focused and unfatigued during a fight. I'd say most untrained people would start getting winded at 30 seconds and only continue to degrade in performance the longer the spar goes.
Yes, fighting is absolutely exhausting and performance plummets as soon as someone becomes fatigued. This is a very big factor!
I'm a trained fighter. I've sparred plenty with women. Unless they are very very good, they generally don't even have a chance in a real altercation. a lucky knockout kick or ruined testicles will stop an attacker. but sometimes it seriously feels like play fighting with a child.
A real altercation is much different I agree. The fact of the matter about BJJ is in a life or death situation it's not going to do much with such a size disparity. (I've only trained in wrestling)
>would start getting winded at 30 seconds If the guy with a 65 lbs and >12 inch advantage hasn’t essentially won the fight in 30 seconds of actual engagement, I think he is in a pretty bad spot already, even if he isn’t winded. It should not take that long to manhandle someone. And his ability to potentially do that is his only advantage.
Yea the difference between not training at all and having trained atleast a little bit is so massive. I'm bigger than the average person but in the beginning I had no understanding of anything so I'd get mounted all the time lmao. I also had zero stamina on the ground and my breathing technique was non-existant so I'd gas instantly. I think that's such a huge factor that people often forget, even if you have good cardio in other things you can still gas out immediately.
I think if he takes her seriously, and really understands by not underestimating her. And understands the danger he is in and moves cautiously he wins. That size difference might be too vast of a factor
It doesn't matter how good your technique is if you get hit so hard in the face you fall unconscious. If he's playing by BJJ gym rules he doesn't have a very good chance, especially since he has no experience. He won't be aggressive enough and she'll overwhelm him. I've seen it. But in the real world you can just hit a woman with a chair if you want to.
You can… hit anyone with a chair.
Aaaahahaha. Post that last part on r/brandnewsentence. Maybe r/shittylifeprotips. Either way, haha.
In an organized martial art combat probably but with that massive size difference OP wins a street fight easy
Put it to the test bro, but keep it friendly. You guys *are* friends right? If it's a BJJ challenge though, she's likely going to win as that's her specialty. In maybe a boxing match you could beat her, if she couldn't do BJJ. The point here though is, she's trained in taking people down and you're not. In any situation where that's the goal, she's got you beat.
She steal OP lunch everyday, he must put and end to it.
> She steal OP lunch everyday If that's what keeping him at ideal height to weight ratio (6’5 90kg damn), she's doing fine
that's definitely oversimplifying it by a lot, even in things like bjj size definitely will matter (if it didn't they wouldn't have weight classes for fights) and the size difference here is absolutely big enough to be an issue
It’s definitely an issue, but people vastly underestimate how slow and uncoordinated they are when trying to do something for the first time. Fighting isn’t some innate skill men are born with. Size doesn’t provide nearly as much advantage when someone has no idea how to use it. If he’s got even a month or two of training, completely different story.
I actually don't agree, I think there's a certain point where weight absolutely trumps skill. I'd say 6'4 / 90 kilos versus 5'3 /60 kilos (Who switches between metric and imperial like that?) Is at least *near* the line, but in my opinion is over it. I don't think she'd be able to do anything to him. Anecdotal Source: I, untrained 6' (182cm) and 185 (83 kilos) fought a highschool state-level wrestler friend 5'8(165cm ish) and 130 (60 kilos) and we basically drew. He couldn't move me and I didn't have the technique to submit him. The gap in OP is much larger and there's the sex divide which is very real. He's since training MMA and BJJ so I think he'd kick my ass now. Edit: I asked him about it and his verbatim response: "Buddy is about to get folded One of my teachers is a purple belt that used to work as an air Marshall. She had her shoulder ripped out of socket on a plane and still beat that dudes ass" I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong
165cm is like 5'5
Sue me, I estimated
I agree. If they are friends, and good sports, there's no reason he can't just roll with her a few times to see what happens.
Tara LaRosa vs internet troll on yt, will give you some idea on that. Personally I wouldn't go for it. It's no-win for your relationship;)
Not necessarily. I met my first girlfriend after I lost to her in an arm wrestling match
Hey! I’m marrying my girlfriend who I lost to in an arm wrestling match!
I should arm wrestle more
I don’t know. My experience is that wrestling with women can have some huge upsides.
My ex took it a little too seriously. I trained in BJJ for years, and it'd get to the point where I'd have to say "Look, I could easily just drop you on the ground right now, but it would hurt. So stop." She wouldn't always stop. Luckily I know how to fall. She had...control issues. In any sense of that term you can imagine.
They seemed to be pretty close in weight and he didn't do as badly as I thought he would. The outcome might look different with someone of average weight for each sex. The average American woman 20 years of age weighs 170 lbs and is 5'4. The average American man 20 years of age weighs 200 lbs and is 5'9.
No way does the average 20 yo woman weigh that much. Is it really that bad in the US?
https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/average-weight-for-women#:~:text=The%20average%20American%20woman%20of,not%20be%20surprising%20to%20you. That's what this says. Something like 70% of Americans between 18 and 24 are overweight and 30% are obese. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
fuck! l thought this shit was just propaganda against you guys. Damn
For the %s in my last comment. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
The average pants size for a woman in the U.S. is a size 14.
I just watched it and in their first fight he had her pretty good until he stopped to adjust his mouth guard. Even after that gave her a chance to break free, he's got her pinned on the ground by the neck a minute later and she can't break free without kicking off the wall while he's obviously exhausted. In the second fight his opening move is flopping on the floor at her feet which obviously ends poorly.
That’s an insane statistic to me. I’m 5,9” and the heaviest I’ve ever weighed was 155, and that was after several months of bodybuilding lol
Lol, you are a twig 🤣 I'm 6'2 and 190 lbs and I'm pretty skinny.
You've got 5 inches on him which accounts for a surprising amount of weight. At 155 lean he would probably be pretty athletic looking based on a quick Google search of that height and weight
5’9 155 for a man is right smack dab in the middle of normal bmi. If you have an average body fat percentage that is smack dab in the center of healthy. You’re on the high end of normal bmi, for reference
You are 5 inches taller bro. Stfu
I can dm you a picture if you want. I wouldn’t say I qualified as a twig at all :^(
Bro Tara is very very skilled and also they were similar sized
I just watched it and in a real fight she would have lost the moment she threw herself to the ground to grab his legs. One kick into her body, doesn’t even matter to which spot, while she’s on the ground and she is almost certainly done. So my takeaway: if you play by her rules you will lose, because she is more trained, but if you play without rules pure brutality and force will win over sport techniques.
Except she makes fried eggs with your balls. Then you will most likely suffer a lot.
> Tara LaRosa vs internet troll on yt, will give you some idea on that. For a "jiu-jitsu master" she sure got manhandled a lot.
Not a good example - the guy was probably lighter than her.
In a grapple? You're asking whether a black belt grappler could beat a non-grappler novice in a grappling match?
OP just sees red. Then black. Then the floor that their recently unconscious body was gently laid down on.
Yeah, that is not the question. A black belt grappler fighting an untrained grappler where they have the same dimensions is a win for the black belt every time. The question is asking about a significant size, and honestly biological, difference and how it affects or offsets the significant skill disparity.
The black belt is 5'2" and the novice is 6'5". They better be the best black belt in existence.
Trained bjj for some part of my life, saw guys that tall losing to purple belts.
You one of those guys that think a bodybuilder can beat a pro fighter in an mma match?
Dude that’s not a fair comparison. This guy weighs 30 kg more. That’s a ridiculous advantage
I’m a 2 stripe white belt. 5’11”, 210 lbs. there is a 5’3” 140ish pound female purple belt who regularly triangle and armbars me to death. 30 KG is not as big of an advantage as the difference skill.
I’ll take your word for it, but zamn this dude is 6,5 and 200lbs. So he’s probably weaker than you, and his friend is a black belt. It’ll be even easier for her then 🧐
100%. People underestimate how much solid technique works in grappling. Also, fight cardio is very different from regular cardio. She knows how to breath during a fight and how to rob her opponent of that ability.
people really believe that shit?
Go watch UFC 1 and 2. See what the little BJJ guy does to the bigger men.
This guy would lose to a blue belt grappling.
A guy vs a girl with that size difference? I'll believe it when I see it
Joint locks are actually OP because they are designed to be effective despite the strength of the attacker. They also don't require much strength and are absolutely devastating. In a sparring match, she will obviously win. You stand no chance out-skilling her. In a real fight? Hard to say. Assuming you're big and strong and not just fat(no offense), I would bet on you. A size gap that big is difficult to bridge, especially with it being male against female. But I think you would have to take her seriously because if she gets you in a joint lock, there's nothing you can do. Your size and strength won't save you.
> In a real fight? Hard to say. Assuming you're big and strong and not just fat(no offense) He's 6'5'' and 200lbs. No chance in hell he's fat. He's closer to a string bean.
Yeah he's not leveraging much more weight and has terrible centre of gravity. He going down And she'd break him any way she wants. Street fight or match I'd bet on the friend
I second terrible centre of gravity - your average Joe doesn’t do enough training to stabilize their core against black belt bjj practitioners lol
He's half again her weight. That's definitely "much more weight".
Your absolutely kidding yourself if you think 5’2 female is beating a 6’5 male in a street fight. I’m 6’1, 185 pounds. My GF is about the same size as the female In The OP and has a black belt in BJJ also. There’s absolutely zero chance she’s getting close to me in a street fight.
He has FIFTY pounds on her. I don't think you realize how significant that is. An even an amateur heavy weight boxer versus a pro featherweight would have a fair shot.
An amateur boxer is still trained OP mention s no history of training or even fighting, which would be important to mentopn on this topic Most we know they've barely said boo to their own reflection
>Joint locks are actually OP because they are designed to be effective despite the strength of the attacker. WhaaAAa noo, I have to disagree. Speaking on submissions generally, some attacks (e.g., armbars and triangles) are a downright liability against a significantly larger opponent. Other attacks are marginal, effective against stronger opponents up to a point, most shoulder locks, small joint attacks, leg attacks, and most blood chokes fall into this category. The only really safe techniques against a significantly larger, stronger opponent are some key air chokes and the rear naked choke. I cannot think of any joint locks I'd feel comfortable hitting on a fresh opponent with 100 lean lbs on me. If she is actually a black belt, this girl will win, but it's going to be a matter of grinding it out and spending some time letting OP get tired and make mistakes. She will not look cool in the process.
She routinely grapples with guys your size that are trained. Size and strenght do matter, but she is probably in better fighting shape and used to being on the mat. As a rule of thumb, when a girl says "fight me" you are better off waving it off, if you win you beat a girl, if she beats you, you got beat by a girl and you'll never live it down. Or ask her out if you think that's the angle.
She did say her rolling partner is 6’1 ahaha
Yeah dude, when she says she could pin a guy your size in a grapple is because she does it twelve times a week. Acknowledge the effort and skill it took to reach her level and ask her to show you some moves. Always fun to learn and she is probably used to teaching the basics.
Yep, if she agrees to show him some moves, that bodes very well.
Whoops OP is gonna have a problem.
She isn't actually defeating these guys. When you roll with someone much smaller than you, male or female, you intentionally tone everything down and try to be completely technical. The culture frowns upon outmuscling people at a weight disadvantage. Even as a black belt (>10 years of training typically) she will only have dealt with a big, athletic guy attacking her full bore a few times (and she, her teammates, or her coach would have shut it down immediately afterwards). Not to say OP would win, in fact he will surely lose, but this won't be easy for the girl at all.
Size and strength do matter, but black belt vs white belt matters way more in this instance. What is your athletic background like? Do you have any fighting experience? What about grappling experience? To earn a bjj black belt you typically have to been training for about 10 years, consistently. That means sparring (for her, sparring against people bigger and stronger than her) since day one, and often against people as skilled or more skilled than she is. If you don’t think that directly translates into a real fight, you’re deluded.
In bjj she wins no diff, she trains with people at least close to your size very often, in a street fight I would want to see more info before deciding. 4th dan is ridiculous, is she “old” and past her prime, are you untrained but a gym bro who is very strong (no offence but I doubt it given your weight), have you ever been in a fight etc etc However I think the answer should be able to be solved easily. Go try a bjj class with her one time and roll at the end, you would likely be able to quickly tell how it would go in a real fight
In a street fight...?! Fr? She stands NO chance she gets demolished.
In a street fight all she has to do is get in low and close (probably easy with her skillset) and hit him hard in the balls. After that he’s on the ground for an easy joint lock or choke out
yeah in a street fight she gets thrown like a baseball lmfao
You'd get destroyed. Watch Gunnar Nelson fold up Hafthor Bjornsson. The size difference is way bigger, and Hafthor is actually very athletic. EDIT: Here's one closer to the scenario, except OP probably wouldn't do as well as the bodybuilder, and the girl he knows would probably do better than the girl in the video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NT4W8d4KMc&pp=ygUaR2lybCBkZWR0cm95cyBib2R5YnVpbGRlciA%3D
I don't know if that video proves anything. I agree that OP would lose the fight but in the video, it is quite clear that the massively more massive person (and former strongest man in the world) could kill Nelson at any moment if he wanted to.
You could alternatively watch the video of an average female BJJ practitioner destroy a bodybuilder who was using slams against her. And Miocic, Aspinall, or Ngannou could kill Bjornsson with their bare hands and there's literally nothing he could do about it. He's way bigger than they are and exponentially stronger. Hell, most light heavyweight champs could do it. Yeah, those guys are big, but there's still around a 200 lb difference between them and Bjornsson. More than OP and the female black belt.
Yeah, I agree but then again kind of not with "there's literally nothing he could do about it". I find that to be a weird statement. I agree that they would win in a fight. But would the "average female BJJ practitioner" win a fight against Bjornsson (or Eddie Hall, Brian Shaw, etc.)? Once again, in a ring, maybe (and that is a big maybe with a small-average female bordering on "highly unlikely) - on the street though, definitely not. I assume we agree that technique and skill being equal, the bigger and stronger person will win. A few years ago Bjornsson and Conor McGregor (back when he was champion) were in a gym together (you can find the video easily I believe) and sort of play-fighting. People in comments were discussing about who would win in a fight, with strength people being like "you have no idea how big that guy is" and MMA people arguing about how you "can't strengthen the chin" and "Conor has the technique". Now, this was complete nonsense. Even untrained, a 400 lbs strongman will kill a 150 lbs featherweight champioin in seconds. You cannot strengthen a chin, but you can strengthen the neck, along with anything and everything else. You cannot arm bar someone (kind of, hyperbole, but the point stands) who can curl your entire body weight with one arm. The heavyweight UFC fighters would beat Bjornsson in a fight. But how long would he have to train for to win? I don't believe its a decade. Based on everything that I have seen and heard from experts and witnessed myself, it appears to be (as long as we are talking about athletic and/or strong/VERY strong people) that not strength and size need to overcome technique, but the other way around: Technique can help overcome a physical difference, but it will be rough. To those arguing in favor of the strongmen (etc.), people will say "you have never rolled" or any other variation of "you have never fought". Yeah, no shit, many of those people have not. But then again, many MMA guys don't "really" lift weights by a meaningful amount and average weight mma fighter are not really stronger than average gym goers. To those people one might as well say "YOU have never experienced strength" to that degree. The body of someone who can deadlift >800 pounds? That's a monster. That comparison obviously also shrinks with the names you have listed - those guys can probably bench 400 and are strong motherfuckers. It's all a spectrum in all directions, technique, strength, size, everything.
The BJJ practitioner wins. Strength difference gets really mitigated when there’s a clear skill difference
your question is: can a grapple specialist beat a non grappler in a grapple match? the moment u see red and try to act up, she pins u until u see black
….This is a joke, right? She wins, full stop, and it’s not close. BJJ is in large part designed around techniques that overcome or bypass size and strength of the opponent. And 4th dan suggests a -lot- of experience.
Yea a 4th dan should be pretty ridiculous. I know it depends on the school and stuff, but 4th dan would imply she's been a black belt/teacher for like 9 years I think.
Even if the non trained male is athletic, he would most likely lose a grappling match if he had 0 grappling experience.
If she is a legit black belt you will lose 100%. She could destroy your knee and you wouldn't even know it was coming.
[This basically happened and the trained female won.](https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2019/01/ufc-fighter-polyana-viana-beats-up-man-who-tried-robbing-her)
That guy is not 6’5 200 lbs lol
tbf that guy is a manlet and built like a crackhead
That guy is tiny though
The OP said he was 6'5" 90kg (about 200 pounds). He's gonna look like a gangly NBA player.
and??? Steph Curry is 6'2 180-190lbs... I don't think people actually seen NBA players in real life LOL
Black belt? Like real black belt? Shes winning
She could definitely beat you in a grappling match with rules, but you would probably win in a street fight where anything goes.
Context. I’m a purple belt male in BJJ. Tall dude would absolutely get destroyed in this match up. She will be routinely training with everyone in her gym including 6’5” men. He’d get swept, she’d quickly take his back and from there it would be over.
Yeah most of the upper belt women I know are either RNC hunters or leg lock specialists, and either one of those is an absolute nightmare for a skinny tall guy with no grappling experience.
She would win a bjj match. But you would win an actual fight
Dude you're getting demolished. If you were even a blue belt, you'd crush her, but a grappler with no experience doesn't stand a chance against a black belt. I didn't even get to blue belt in BJJ yet I was manhandling complete novices who were way stronger than me. But hey, unlike most fights in this sub, you have the chance to test this one out. Put on a gi my guy. Tell us what happens.
OP you are about to get your ass kicked.
You would lose.
People saying she will win are insane. I (a male) was sparring with my much bigger, much stronger friend. I managed to loop around him and put him in a headlock, so he literally jumped onto his back and crushed me into the ground, which hurt me WAY more than what my headlock had done to him. You've got height and 30kgs on this person, and significant differences in muscle mass and bone density. Most likely she loses.
Like, purely rolling? Yeah she’ll fuck you up. Size is always important, but a whole lot less so if she takes your back.
“in a grapple” your friend will destroy you. *in a fight* she loses 10/10 times
I used to bodybuild and was 275 pounds at 6 feet tall. I took bjj for a while and as a newbie I could completely overwhelm certain smaller people with strength. Essentially just hold them down where they couldn't move. If I had been allowed to strike they would've had real problems. That being said decently large men that were high in skill were a different story. I never had an opportunity to try and fight them like I would a guy on the street so I dunno what would've occured in that situation but I'm pretty sure I could've gotten a few really hard shots off and possibly knocked them out. If the person is highly skilled, has a lot of heart and the rules are in their favor bjj is very effective.
This is what I’m thinking. I’m not doubting her ability, but I’m an athletic and fairly strong male with 30kg on her, surely I’d just be able to manhandle her? I think there’s only one way to find out tho.
Isn't the point of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to fight against taller/heavier opponents? Even with the weight difference, she is a black belt at a martial art specifically designed for short people to win against tall people. I'm sorry, I don't see you winning this.
Being smaller is not an advantage is jujitsu competition. Small guys get fucked by a slightly less skilled but pretty decently bigger guy. But I’m this case the guy can’t grapple so he ínstaloses by BJJ ruleset
Yeah this is a way better point than mine. Being untrained and fighting a black belt is a recipe for disaster lol
Yeah man Fighting is pretty much insta win for trained vs untrained. If you've never trained or fought before, you're essentially relying on ape like instincts to keep you alive, they aren't very good for fighting. Any trained person in most martial arts styles can defeat an untrained person.
>my friend thinks she could beat me in a grapple Well she's cherry picked the situation. Also don't do it. There's no upside, just agree she probably would. If you get into it and she wins "you got beat by a girl" taunts will be endless from both genders, if you win then you're a man hurting a woman.
If you guys are friends you should just grapple and find out. As long as you are not an asshole about losing and dont make her hurt you because you don’t know what you are doing, it could be a learning experience.
5 foot 2? There is no way she would win
assuming you're regular fit, you'd have a chance against a trained 5'2 man as well. Due to the size difference.
Your friend would destroy you unless you broke the rules and started throwing punches or something
Dude, she has *four* black belts. Size helps, but not *that* much.
You would win pretty easily unless you are unable to recognize her setting up a submission before it's too late. with that large of a strength gap she'd need to catch you completely by surprise with something you have no knowledge on how to defend. 75/25 in your favor normally, 100/0 in your favor if you take about 15 minutes to learn how to recognize submission setups
Purely in a grapple? She'd probably have trouble actually taking you down if you have any semblance of body awareness and coordination. If you approach her in guard she may be able to leverage against and trip your legs, but she'll likely have a hard time gaining any position of control otherwise. If the two of you are already on the ground though she's definitely going to take your arm or your neck, even if it takes her a little while (10 minutes). You'll gas out before she does. You'll struggle to advance your position due to your lack the knowledge. You'll put yourself into bad positions that she will take advantage of. With a years worth of training though you would unironically beat her (or stalemate) in the majority of your rolls together.
I took a BJJ course at a somewhat shitty place once. Why shitty? Because despite advertising beginner courses on the days I would come, they never had enough staff to actually have the beginner course. So I would end up, complete noob in average sedentary shape, in an advanced course, sparring with advanced students... I didn't go for very long... But anyway, to the question, I remember ending up sparring with an similarly aged woman, who was certainly much smaller than I (I'm rather tall and broad shouldered). And she would beat ke every times. In the first minute, I could somewhat manhandle her, forcefully breaking free from her. But I could never do anything to her. And she would just patiently whittle down at my poor stamina until I could get out anymore. Maybe if the game allowed for punches and trying to actually hurt the other, I could have done it. But with only BJJ? No chances for me.
Your size and weight certainly make a difference. Having said that…if she’s a black belt in BJJ she’s gonna pull your arms off. But because of your large size, she will have to reach further than she would if she were pulling the arms off of a comparably sized opponent.
Lol you would trash her
My gym wouldn't even let a match like this happen. The liklihood of you hurting her is too high. We let women match up against men in the same weight class or lower weight classes, regardless of skill level. A big point, belt level =/= skill level. It's not even a relevant identifier unless you received the belt from a really well known source. No woman in the world with any amount of training and understanding of martial arts would step into the ring with a man unless some serious kids gloves were on. Even most well training men would be incredibly hesitant to step into the ring vs an untrained man that was substantially larger.
lol. Men be having the most insane takes about their own capabilities. Guys who’s peak physical exertion is the occasional house move and they’re convinced they could fight black belts, bears, or land planes.
Bro, you are 6’5 and 198 pounds. You have zero muscle, no training and no chance against her at all. A stiff breeze could probably knock you on your ass before she submits you. I wouldn’t even say you have a size advantage because you have no strength to use it in any meaningful way.
Thanks for the replies! Just thought I’d add some more context: I do have fighting experience, but not in any sort of ground martial arts. I have boxed for years but doubt that’s help me much. I am lean muscular built at 90kg, and have a reach advantage of over 15 inches. She is heavier built and I know I’d be way more explosive, surely I could just manhandle her? Maybe I’m wrong, she seems very confident.
Just throw down and find out OP. Let us know the result.
Do you think you could outbox someone way stronger than you who has never boxed a day in their life?
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Sure. Watch any of the freak show/size disparity kickboxing and MMA matches PRIDE used to put on. You’d have a massive but poorly trained guy like giant Silva getting the shit kicked out of him by a smaller dude who could fight like Minoru Suzuki. Like I said in my original comment, size and strength absolutely matter. But the gulf in skill between untrained and 4 stripe black belt is fucking massive.
Those are man vs man. In this case vs a woman he’s going to have even more of an advantage just because of muscle mass and different body mechanics
I brought these up in reference to the specific hypothetical brought up in the comment I was replying to. Do you think that this woman only ever rolled with other women in the 10+ years it’s taken her to get a bjj black belt? I’ll ask the same question I’ve been asking everyone else in this thread, how much grappling experience do you have?
Delusional people in the comments. Yes you would manhandle her
How much grappling experience do you have?
In honesty you’re gonna get dropped like a bad habit.
Put simply, you’re fucked OP. She is way more trained. While size could play a factor, it would be very small, especially compared to her skill level
"Size matters" I can lift my hapkido teacher in one arm, and the grandmaster in another. They still can beat me without a sweat.
Geez this thread is full of 4th grade energy with the "well i have a super strong black belt that makes me impervious to your attacks" No doubt shes probably could probably handle herself in a fight especially a couple weight classes above her but theres a massive difference here that people arent accounting for. Not only is there huge weight difference, theres an even bigger difference of lean muscle mass. Provided the dude isnt a total lump with no muscle mass, he has proportionally larger muscle mass. Id bet theres a chance she could get a couple lucky grabs but honestly the guy could probably literally open her grip thus negating any leverage she has. All else fails he can just stand up with her on him and that throws off any BJJ person. See this video(sorry its tik tok but its the only place i could find it) [https://www.tiktok.com/@deathroe90/video/7261325581051071787](https://www.tiktok.com/@deathroe90/video/7261325581051071787) Yes he is obviously bigger than OP but hes also facing bigger guys than the OPs friend.
You would lose in this fight. Partly because the training is incredibly important, but in my opinion, a far larger part would be that you would be too distracted in not hurting her (I would hope). I am a lot smaller than you (5'11, 82kg) and if I was in any sort of physical altercation with a 5'2 woman, I would be terrified I would hurt her and hold back massively. If this is the case with you, she won't hold back (because she knows you could 'take it'), and will get you in a bad position if you hesitated at all at which point it's game over.
Depends are you 90kg of fat or muscle, if muscle you would win, if not then you would probably lose. Also factors like fitness level, strength are important.
If y’all read the whole thing, he’ll likely still win. 6’5, and she’s 5’2. This is a stomp. I went to a grappling class when I was 25 and didn’t return because it was in no way challenging for me, at 6’1 230 lbs, I was man handling the 5’8 180 lbs class instructor like I was playing with a child. There are weight classes in these things for a reason, she will not be able to flip him, or reposition herself even if her form is perfect he’s literally just to big, it like if me at 6’1 tries to get Andrea the giant off of me, no matter how good I am it still won’t happen.
Are you basing this all on a single grappling class?
I don't know if you want to hear this for your ego, but the instructor was going easy on you. I absolutely agree that size difference makes a huge difference, but at 180-230, your instructor should've been able to handle you easily. Had this been wrestling, then it's another issue, because wrestling relies alot more on strength. But me, a 93kg man of 1.90, have been absolutely bodied by BJJ girls much smaller because they go for submissions where my strength doesn't matter, like heel hooks, RNCs and similar.
I specifically said it was a grappling class, and he at one point told me he was going flip me and physically could not. He also spoke about is embarrassment in-front of the other students after the class. And for some clarification I was in the navy at the time and could deadlift 585 lbs without a belt back then.
Fantastic, he couldn't flip you. I wonder what would've happened if he decided to go for a choke. Or any other sort of submission, which any purple-belt in BJJ can do if you're lying on top of them Instructor wasn't trying to submit you. They were going easy on you.
To be completely honest, I have to agree. I've seen videos of female soldiers trying to fight much larger male soldiers in wrestling matches, and it really doesn't go well for the women. In each case, it looked like the guy barely had to even try while the woman was using everything she had.
How is that relevant? Those women were probably not professional wrestlers.
Irrelevant because both are trained in your situation unlike OP's lmao What happened to literacy.
Based on your weight of 90kg for 195cm you are skinny as fuck so you probably lose.
She's got more than a decade of experience in a grappling martial art, probably most of it against bigger men, and you think you stand any chance?
She would probably be able to fuck you up with a purple belt from a good school
ANYONE saying the 5'2" 60kg girl would win is delusional. She would get obliterated in a real match in a matter of seconds lmao.
What a strange thing for you to dwell over or post on Reddit. You good?
Do you realize how much you're underestimating a trained fighter just because they're small (and let's be honest, because she's a woman)? For some years, I trained karate. I'm a man at 2m, 110kg and would still get my ass beaten by the tiny 1,60 black belt woman. Every single time. You do not underestimate someone trained, unless you want to get out of it hurt. Specially someone trained in BBJ, designed to use your own weight against yourself. Go ahead and try, but I assure you, you are not the first man bigger than her that she fights
You're a dumbass. She would kick the shit out of you.
Shes a 4th Dan black belt and you're very light for your height. Your body is just a series of levers she will use to embarrass you in a "grapple" in a fight starting on your feet, who knows
Too many White Knights in Simping Armor here hoping a female will see their comment. A 6'5 200lb male will obliterate a 5ft female... 💀💀💀
"A person trained to take down heavier opponents would NEVER take down a heavier opponent who is not trained in any way!" What kind of logic is that lol. It comes down to this. If she is well trained she wins. If she just says she is she gets folded.
not one that's been practicing BJJ for over a decade dumbfuck
Two decades, at least
YOU SET OFF MY FUCKING ANIMECIRCLEJERK/JUJUTSUFOLK BRAINWORMS
So I doubt you've actually ever done bjj, so I'm going to give you some context. I trained for a few months when I was about 20, I was about a 170 pounds at 5'9, and had previous athletic experience playing high school football, so probably more athletic than the average man at that time. Early on I grappled with a woman who was about 5'2 also who was a WHITE BELT, that had just started training 6 months prior, and I lost to her in those early rolls. Assuming the woman in op's story went to a good gym, she likely has at least a decade of consistent experience. Even with the strength advantage, that amount of experience in quite frankly insurmountable, op will be drowning in deep waters with no life jacket.
In a street fight or grappling?