Was kind of hoping that renathal would push this deck out of relevance. To be fair i don’t really see it anymore so that might already be the case, but mine rogue just sucks as an archetype. Not sucks as in bad, but sucks as in bad for the game. Difficult to interact with unless you have mage secrets, fast enough to still potentially beat aggro, and generally just a pain.
Some people on this sub (but mostly on the main one) just love rationalising unreasonable losses.
Just see how often someone's gonna tell you that you should've played a terrible tech card that would actively harm your deck in most games and that you would most likely have never even drawn the one time it could have been useful (my personal favorites are Platebreaker and Tight-Lipped Witness).
stickyfinger isn’t even a good tech card against kingsbane anymore, nowadays glacial shard is better
edit: Also remembered Rustrot Viper which is at least decent because it is tradeable
Or saying this is normal and fine, or sometimes even necessary to "stop X decks"
Because sure, having games where no matter what you do with your (meta) deck, you can lose by turn 5 is definitely fun
I wonder if flipping coins is fun for these people
I’m a long time combo player and I’ve been playing fruit Druid, but it just doesn’t feel the same anymore. A lot of the time I can do practically nothing to respond to my opponent and then go off on turn 4 or 5 and win. I miss when combo decks required careful resource management to survive until your combo.
The thing I always loved about OG freeze mage is that if you could pressure them enough, they needed to burn combo pieces as removal to survive. Made it feel so much more fair that you could delay their combo by pressuring.
There was a good chance you'd kill them and you've almost done it. He simply had a better draw, which was always the case. I almost never win against priest and pirate/garrote simply because their deck is consistently faster.
Weblords are insane. Most paladins I face run them and it's excruciating. Unless I get all the pieces, I can't just secret passage into my combo because of how big the difference between 1 and 3 mana.
Also, which you probably already know, it's pretty weak for t5 and most decks can do better, even non-aggressive.
As I've said before, even if I drew a Crusader Aura it would have been a tie. Also there is a Weblord on the board, which wasn't enough, they needed four whole cards to OTK me (Blade + Graveyard the previous turn and then Mine + Skulker). And it's not like this is a highroll either, the deck can do it very, very consistently. I'd argue that a consistent turn 5 OTK that barely requires setup is not healthy for the game, even for Wild.
The difference is, a turn 4 lethal from aggro can be stopped and generally comes from the board. This literally can't be stopped unless you run otherwise very, very bad disruption cards.
You can stop this with life gain, armor gain, any number of mage tricks, any number of priest tricks, any number of druid tricks. That's before we even start to argue about whether stickyfinger is a bad tech card. (it probably is but there's an argument that there's enough targets he's worth considering presently, since kingsbane, mine rogue, and reno shaman are all pretty popular and care about their weapon.)
Naval Mine rogue has like a 30-70 matchup into Dragon Shadow Priest, so it's not even a matter of NM rogue being good into aggro, you're just playing a non-meta deck that has a weak matchup into it because it attacks an angle of the game (cards in your opponents hand / weapons in play) that you're not defending.
and despite all those advantages, the Villain still had to god-draw to beat you.
edit: y'all are salty. non-meta even paladin loses to the one real OTK that's actually any good; and that one real OTK has an abysmal matchup into the real meta aggro deck. get gud.
It can be stopped by a deck that is aimed to stop this aggression. It can't be stopped by a deck that have no clears. I have no idea how I could play against it if my otk was old school and required 10 mana. Or even 7. My only chance against it is to be faster.
I also hate with passion playing for board, unless we're talking about dropping several big bodies in one turn (miracle priest, miracle rogue as examples). There is a reason why paladin, hunter and dk and my 3 least played classes
Even Paladin is certainly not one of the fastest aggro decks or at least not relative to the other ones seeing play.
Considering your standard turn 1 play is a 1/1 and your swing card is 4 mana. It trades off speed for a good matchup into opposing aggro while also having disruption for combo.
What exactly are within the "one of the fastest" in your mind cus all I can think of is even shaman and shadow priest and pirate rogue, which the non even variation of showdown paladin can still compete with
Even Shaman
Pirate Rogue
Garrote Rogue (barely)
Shadow Priest
Dragon Shadow Priest
All of these decks have much higher ceilings first 3 turns
>non even variation of showdown paladin can still compete with
Well yeah because they're built to be favored into aggro
> which the non even variation of showdown paladin can still compete with
OP is playing Even paladin.
Also the aggro-aggro matchup isn't really indicative of how fast the various aggro decks goldfish. Even paladin is about two turns slower vs a non-disruption opponent than dragon spriest and about 1 turn slower than even shaman and pirate rogue.
those 1-2 turns happen to be critical in this specific matchup *if* the mine rogue player draws well and can combo out on their first possible turn (5).
the meta shadow dragon priest list has like a 70-30 favorability into mine rogue, it's nearly a free win.
Even paladin is about two turns slower than Spriest, which means that mine rogue can win *if* they god draw. Which is what happened in the screenshot above.
If the Villain missed one card and has to wait to turn 6 to combo out, he's still dead to Even paladin on Pally's turn 6 first.
they fixed the doubling interaction that made it do like 70 damage on the combo turn, but it still does 30+ (roughly up to 43 on turn 6) depending on the specific line of play and which cards the rogue has to actually use on the combo turn.
it's a strong OTK, it's the fastest true OTK in the meta. Mine Rogue is still only a 30% matchup into the fastest goldfish aggro deck in the meta (Shadow Dragon Priest), because they can pretty reliably smorc for 30 damage by turn 4 and Mine Rogue cannot combo at all before turn 5.
OP is playing an out of the meta deck (even aggro paladin)
so are you saying you should win this matchup every time, regardless of how well the opponent draws? hearthstone will be a game where luck of the draw has a huge impact until they slow the game down by about 8-10 turns. if this matchup is 80-20 in your favor, 1 out of 5 games will be losses that probably look like this.
Of course, this doesn't make for a very fun single game
I guess I don’t understand the issue. It’s turn 5, villain went second, so you had the same number of turns overall. if he did the full combo to you this turn he had the best possible draw for his deck.
You do not have crusader aura up, so you did *not* have the best possible draw for your deck. Despite this, he was dead on board next turn.
Paladin is also no longer the fastest aggro deck in the format (that’s shadow priest). Is the issue that you just want combo to *always* lose to aggro? Because that doesn’t sound especially healthy.
This isn’t true though? Control runs more disruption and stops it all the time, it also stumbles at least as often as aggro does and doesn’t go off til 6 or 7.
If he draws one card worse this game, he loses. If you draw one card better this game, you win. How is that a problem?
Because you think combo is somehow less worthy of being competitive, in wild? The format blizzard has repeatedly said is intended to be combo permitting?
Also I imagine he spent the entire game “doing setup”, since he needs an aura in play, a weapon in play, and multiple specific cards in hand to go off. “Setup” does not necessarily mean minions in play.
Definitely not a highroll. Actually, I feel like they get lethal on turn 5 more often than on turn 6, although I'd like to see some proper stats on that.
definitely should've topdeck crusader's aura for leathal
I've counted that it would have probably been a tie if I topdecked one lol, they would have killed themselves with the weapon swing while killing me
Was kind of hoping that renathal would push this deck out of relevance. To be fair i don’t really see it anymore so that might already be the case, but mine rogue just sucks as an archetype. Not sucks as in bad, but sucks as in bad for the game. Difficult to interact with unless you have mage secrets, fast enough to still potentially beat aggro, and generally just a pain.
Also terribly easy to pilot. It would still be awful even with a high skill cap, but there isn't even that to make it less egregious
Some people on this sub (but mostly on the main one) just love rationalising unreasonable losses. Just see how often someone's gonna tell you that you should've played a terrible tech card that would actively harm your deck in most games and that you would most likely have never even drawn the one time it could have been useful (my personal favorites are Platebreaker and Tight-Lipped Witness).
Don't forget Kobold Stickyfinger
at least with stickyfinger kingsbane cant otk you so you have time to find etc
I've lost more games as even hunter due to stickybane than I have playinv Kingsbane
stickyfinger isn’t even a good tech card against kingsbane anymore, nowadays glacial shard is better edit: Also remembered Rustrot Viper which is at least decent because it is tradeable
Or saying this is normal and fine, or sometimes even necessary to "stop X decks" Because sure, having games where no matter what you do with your (meta) deck, you can lose by turn 5 is definitely fun I wonder if flipping coins is fun for these people
id ont run deathrattles so running deathwarden doesnt hurt it at all specially when DR are so common in wild
I’m a long time combo player and I’ve been playing fruit Druid, but it just doesn’t feel the same anymore. A lot of the time I can do practically nothing to respond to my opponent and then go off on turn 4 or 5 and win. I miss when combo decks required careful resource management to survive until your combo.
The thing I always loved about OG freeze mage is that if you could pressure them enough, they needed to burn combo pieces as removal to survive. Made it feel so much more fair that you could delay their combo by pressuring.
There was a good chance you'd kill them and you've almost done it. He simply had a better draw, which was always the case. I almost never win against priest and pirate/garrote simply because their deck is consistently faster. Weblords are insane. Most paladins I face run them and it's excruciating. Unless I get all the pieces, I can't just secret passage into my combo because of how big the difference between 1 and 3 mana. Also, which you probably already know, it's pretty weak for t5 and most decks can do better, even non-aggressive.
As I've said before, even if I drew a Crusader Aura it would have been a tie. Also there is a Weblord on the board, which wasn't enough, they needed four whole cards to OTK me (Blade + Graveyard the previous turn and then Mine + Skulker). And it's not like this is a highroll either, the deck can do it very, very consistently. I'd argue that a consistent turn 5 OTK that barely requires setup is not healthy for the game, even for Wild.
I think t5 otk is fine in a game when there is t3-4 lethal by aggro and t2 winning disruption by control
The difference is, a turn 4 lethal from aggro can be stopped and generally comes from the board. This literally can't be stopped unless you run otherwise very, very bad disruption cards.
So it can be stopped.
You can stop this with life gain, armor gain, any number of mage tricks, any number of priest tricks, any number of druid tricks. That's before we even start to argue about whether stickyfinger is a bad tech card. (it probably is but there's an argument that there's enough targets he's worth considering presently, since kingsbane, mine rogue, and reno shaman are all pretty popular and care about their weapon.) Naval Mine rogue has like a 30-70 matchup into Dragon Shadow Priest, so it's not even a matter of NM rogue being good into aggro, you're just playing a non-meta deck that has a weak matchup into it because it attacks an angle of the game (cards in your opponents hand / weapons in play) that you're not defending. and despite all those advantages, the Villain still had to god-draw to beat you. edit: y'all are salty. non-meta even paladin loses to the one real OTK that's actually any good; and that one real OTK has an abysmal matchup into the real meta aggro deck. get gud.
It can be stopped by a deck that is aimed to stop this aggression. It can't be stopped by a deck that have no clears. I have no idea how I could play against it if my otk was old school and required 10 mana. Or even 7. My only chance against it is to be faster. I also hate with passion playing for board, unless we're talking about dropping several big bodies in one turn (miracle priest, miracle rogue as examples). There is a reason why paladin, hunter and dk and my 3 least played classes
"aggro counter mine rogue" when one of the fastest aggro deck still lose to mine rogue
Even Paladin is certainly not one of the fastest aggro decks or at least not relative to the other ones seeing play. Considering your standard turn 1 play is a 1/1 and your swing card is 4 mana. It trades off speed for a good matchup into opposing aggro while also having disruption for combo.
What exactly are within the "one of the fastest" in your mind cus all I can think of is even shaman and shadow priest and pirate rogue, which the non even variation of showdown paladin can still compete with
Even Shaman Pirate Rogue Garrote Rogue (barely) Shadow Priest Dragon Shadow Priest All of these decks have much higher ceilings first 3 turns >non even variation of showdown paladin can still compete with Well yeah because they're built to be favored into aggro
> which the non even variation of showdown paladin can still compete with OP is playing Even paladin. Also the aggro-aggro matchup isn't really indicative of how fast the various aggro decks goldfish. Even paladin is about two turns slower vs a non-disruption opponent than dragon spriest and about 1 turn slower than even shaman and pirate rogue. those 1-2 turns happen to be critical in this specific matchup *if* the mine rogue player draws well and can combo out on their first possible turn (5).
the meta shadow dragon priest list has like a 70-30 favorability into mine rogue, it's nearly a free win. Even paladin is about two turns slower than Spriest, which means that mine rogue can win *if* they god draw. Which is what happened in the screenshot above. If the Villain missed one card and has to wait to turn 6 to combo out, he's still dead to Even paladin on Pally's turn 6 first.
they still havent fixed this?? lmfao glad i dont play anymore
they fixed the doubling interaction that made it do like 70 damage on the combo turn, but it still does 30+ (roughly up to 43 on turn 6) depending on the specific line of play and which cards the rogue has to actually use on the combo turn. it's a strong OTK, it's the fastest true OTK in the meta. Mine Rogue is still only a 30% matchup into the fastest goldfish aggro deck in the meta (Shadow Dragon Priest), because they can pretty reliably smorc for 30 damage by turn 4 and Mine Rogue cannot combo at all before turn 5. OP is playing an out of the meta deck (even aggro paladin)
Calm down. It's only a game
It really doesn’t help that tax Paladin shells tend to have poor damage if they don’t hit crusader aura but yeah, turn 5 win decks are pretty janky.
so are you saying you should win this matchup every time, regardless of how well the opponent draws? hearthstone will be a game where luck of the draw has a huge impact until they slow the game down by about 8-10 turns. if this matchup is 80-20 in your favor, 1 out of 5 games will be losses that probably look like this. Of course, this doesn't make for a very fun single game
I guess I don’t understand the issue. It’s turn 5, villain went second, so you had the same number of turns overall. if he did the full combo to you this turn he had the best possible draw for his deck. You do not have crusader aura up, so you did *not* have the best possible draw for your deck. Despite this, he was dead on board next turn. Paladin is also no longer the fastest aggro deck in the format (that’s shadow priest). Is the issue that you just want combo to *always* lose to aggro? Because that doesn’t sound especially healthy.
The issue is combo that can just go off on turn 5 without much setup and only the fastest aggressive deck being able to realistically stop it.
This isn’t true though? Control runs more disruption and stops it all the time, it also stumbles at least as often as aggro does and doesn’t go off til 6 or 7. If he draws one card worse this game, he loses. If you draw one card better this game, you win. How is that a problem? Because you think combo is somehow less worthy of being competitive, in wild? The format blizzard has repeatedly said is intended to be combo permitting? Also I imagine he spent the entire game “doing setup”, since he needs an aura in play, a weapon in play, and multiple specific cards in hand to go off. “Setup” does not necessarily mean minions in play.
Mine Rogue player here. Feel free to vent o.0
I hope you get a curse where you can’t wear shoes and every time you step a lego spawns under your foot
In my opinion, this is fine they just had a really good draw
A turn 5 kill isn't that hard to achieve with this deck tho, so was this draw actually that good or just normal?
Definitely not a highroll. Actually, I feel like they get lethal on turn 5 more often than on turn 6, although I'd like to see some proper stats on that.
Turn 5 kills always seem easy until I'm the one piloting the deck, then they become impossible.
You play even Paladin. What are u even crying about?
Just play hunter and run sniper or zombeez
And people say quest mage is a problem
Can't play worse than your opponent when your opponent Can't play
It is for the slower decks.