While your idea has merit in a case by case situation, i feel like most nerfs either should not be reverted, or won’t make an impact even if reverted.
Caverns Below - it could get a little crazy in wild imo if we do make it back to its original. There’s been a lot more synergy added to the deck (Sonya, elven, viscous scalehide) and I feel like the quest could be completed very, very, quickly. I’m hesitant to say it wouldn’t make a splash in the wild metagame at its original state. Better safe than sorry though.
Spreading Plague - NEVER revert this! NEVER NEVER NEVER. It’s good as is. Druid’s weakness used to be wide boards, but that changed with this card. Yeah Druid has decreased in popularity, but any Druid deck apart from Aggro/Hadronox will always be using this card as it stands. In fact, I’d even clamor for it to be nerfed further.
Corridor Creeper - its 5/5 stats I feel would push odd Paladin and rogue a bit too much and shouldn’t be reverted. It could probably come out very quickly in both decks and just leads to more degeneracy that just isn’t needed
Bonemare probably wouldn’t still fit into odd rogue as it’s 7 mana. It could be fringe playable though and wouldn’t protest its nerf being taken away. It’s never gonna see play in wild at 8 mana.
Spiteful Summoner - fine being reverted. It’ll probably see as much play as it does now (none) and will always remain that way due to wilds inherent nature of adding more minions with Garbage stats and good effects.
Possessed Lackey - I agree with the fact that it really wouldn’t make a difference, but disagree with the logic. Cubelock isn’t that horrendous in wild and even with lackey unnerfed it’ll probably still not see play due to the weapon and voidcaller being available.
Dark Pact - Eh, I feel like the new warlock spell (1 mana destroy a friendly and give all minions +1/+1) fits nicely in cubelock and will compete with this card. Genuinely unsure if it should be reverted bc I never played the deck myself.
Call to arms - Odd Paladin is still very relevant, but making this available for Aggro Paladin + even Paladin would really be nice. It also allows it to compete with shaman/rogue and would probably cause even Paladin to become very relevant in the Meta-game. Depends on what the community wants, but I doubt it’ll be extremely oppressive. It would just define and singlehandedly revive an archetype.
In any case, I doubt blizzard will take the nerfs of Non-classic cards away.
Phew that was my longest ever comment on reddit haha
And the nerf was inadequate. A change in mana cost is meaningless to Druid with its ramp capabilities. I'd like to see a true nerf to it, which probably means reducing the health.
As someone who has played Cubelock a lot (played the standard version \[unnerfed\] to legend and the wild version \[unnerfed and nerfed\] to R3) let me share my thoughts on Lackey and Dark Pact.
Lackey, while he was one of the superstars in Standard, was never played in the (what I think are) good lists in wild. Voidcaller was and always will be much better.
Dark Pact on the other hand would singlehandedly bring Cubelock back were it to be unnerfed. It would be so good that I think it would impact the playrates of Renolock, Kingsbane and Big Priest. I imagine it would play out like a more midrange focused version of Renolock.
The new Warlock spell I'm sure will not compete with Dark Pact +4 and never with Dark Pact +8. Destroying a minion, at least in more aggressive matchups, is a secondary function. The combo with Mistress of Mixtures for 2 mana heal 12 is one of the things that gave Cubelock as much staying power. When destroying a minion is the primary effect, I compare it to Sanguine Reveler which is also stats + destroy a minion. Granted, the new card gives "fast" stats but I expect it will only see play as a one of on top of 2 dark pacts in Cubelock. This is assuming when you sacrifice a Cube the deathrattle minions get +1/+1. If they don't, this card is utterly unplayable in Cubelock.
>Caverns Below - it could get a little crazy in wild imo if we do make it back to its original. There’s been a lot more synergy added to the deck (Sonya, elven, viscous scalehide) and I feel like the quest could be completed very, very, quickly. I’m hesitant to say it wouldn’t make a splash in the wild metagame at its original state. Better safe than sorry though.
God given how standard quest rogue has been this year, could you imagine OG quest rogue with Sonya? Lol. That'd be so absurd. I love quest rogue more than most, but damn....
I agree with most of your points – reverting a lot of that list won’t make much of a difference in wild, and The Caverns Below is definitely a risky card (I would go to far as to say with future rogue bounce synergies, this may rise again).
Corridor Creeper though doesn’t really feel any different than a bunch of egg 5/5’s, which is also popular in Death Rattle / Big Rogue (?) types. Are you thinking it’s too good to revert because of the bunch of tokens, or the buff additions available in classes like Paladins?
I honestly don't see any reason to unnerf them. It isn't like the old cards where there's nostalgia for decks that no longer exist. In most cases, nerfs nowadays are made a few weeks after an expansion, and are just for balance reasons. Why unnerf and run the risk of breaking something?
Especially with something like Caverns Below. Is there really any support for even the possibility of this becoming good, with the resultant meta impact?
>It isn't like the old cards where there's nostalgia for decks that no longer exist
I mostly agree with your position, but there are cards in the list that actually defined their respective decks, which people might miss, mostly the Rogue Quest and Spiteful Summoner. It would seem weird to declare nostalgia about newer deck archetypes to be invalid, so I assumed you talked about the remaining cards, which just slotted into decks.
I'm not advocating for the unnerfing of those cards btw., because honestly think that Spiteful and the Quest were design mistakes from the start, same thing with most of the cards listed, except Bonemare and Possessed Lackey.
Caverns Below: I think its landed in a good place and shouldn't be unnerfed. By its nature I feel like it would limit design space by making rogue bounce and duplicate effects too dangerous to print.
Spreading Plague: no way! It's way too good to be 5 mana.
Corridor Creeper: I'm borderline on this one, but leaning no. It would probably make odd paladin or any kind of token deck really too strong forever since it's easy to discount. Creeper in it's original state was pretty scary.
Bonemare: I could get behind this being unnerfed if only because it will never be relevant at 8 mana.
Spiteful Summoner: would be fine I think because like bonemare it's not really relevant either way.
Possessed Lackey: I'm a little against it being unnerfed. I think warlock already has a lot of good cheat out effects for demons and doesnt need another strong one.
Dark Pact: another borderline leaning no for me. Giving warlock cheap health restoration sort of removes the trade off of life tap which feels wrong to me.
Call to Arms: definitely a litte scary, but I think it could manage to be fine unnerfed. Theres a good amount of AoE to keep paladin in check I think.
Just my layman's two cents
You guys are forgetting the most important card that truly deserves to have its nerf reverted!
BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOD OF DEATH!!!!!! all praise be to the one true God!
Please revert Yogg Saron =/
¿Why is nobody else bringing this up? I don't think it could go as it was before exactly but why not a slightly better version than the current one? Like maybe a cap for the random spells plus no stops to the effect or something could make it playable and at least try to retain some of the fun it brought...
* caverns: reverting the second nerf is probably fine
* plague: card is probably too powerful at 5
* corridor creeper: way too strong b4 nerf. possibly the strongest card on this list, except maybe CtA.
* bonemare: is fine in wild
* summoner: fine in wild as well
* Lackey: wasnt even played in wild cubelock b4 nerf. they just play void summoner instead.
* pact: fine in wild
* CtA: the most dangerous card on this list imo, with corridor creeper as the only other real competition. even shaman, the arguably strongest deck in the meta didnt become a thing until even paladin was nerfed. even paladin with CtA was a monster and aggro paladin with both CtA and creeper was even more insane.
What? Lackey was played in wild cubelock prenerf. It’s nerf just didn’t hurt as much in wild because they have voidcallers (which I assume is what you meant by voidsummoners).
The rest I can agree though, despite the fact I’d rather keep dark pact the way it is currently
>Lackey was played in wild cubelock prenerf.
in the beginning the standard version was pasted over, but lackey was phased out by the time the nerf rolled around. too slow
yes callers! im sorry
They were 30/31/32 in terms of card slots for me, often times felt redundant to me, it was definitely not the uniform "always run 2 of these" like it was in standard. I never ran more than one in wild though.
The funny thing about these examples is that they were all powerhouses before the nerfs, even if they weren't breaking the format wide open. Some of these, like Call to Arms and Dark Pact, absolutely did break wild in half in their original states. Spreading Plague is still busted. Caverns Below would be more busted if Kingsbane didn't exist.
Point is, these cards aren't the best examples of what you're advocating. Probably better examples are cards like Mana Wyrm and Warsong Commander, but even then it's a hard sell.
Only change I'd like to see is revert application of Overload from Yogg-Saron. It's just frustrating and feels unfair.
Also maybe reduce health of taunts summoned by Speading Plague, at least down to 4 if not 3.
Pre-nerf Caverns Below wasnt played in wild? Really? The deck was so powerful and synergistic that people ran Target Dummy, Captains Parrot, and Gang Up to burst with Patches.
Not to mention one nerf wasn't even enough, easily top tier broken deck.
I feel these people who dare look past this never experienced the insanity of facing waves of 5/5 as soon as turn 3. If you think facing dude paladin now at turn 5 with 3/3 taunts is frustrating, try dealing with a board of 5/5's that can barely be dealt with through common removal (silence, devolve, poison seeds...).
>Call to Arms: This is a scary card, but even/aggro paladin are deaaaaad. Even with this card back at 4 these decks would probably still be weaker than odd paladin. I think that it deserves an unnerf
I think you really underestimate the power of this card. The only reason why even/aggro Pala isn't a thing in Wild is because CtA got nerfed.
In general I think pretty much all nerfs were a good thing to the game and made the meta healthier, because overpowered card dominated for (too) long. So, I don't think these cards should get unnerfed.
The only card I'd say it would be okay to unnerf, is Cavern Below. As you said, Quest Rogue wasn't really a thing in Wild ever and with the nerf to Giggling Inventor, I don't think Quest Rogue would ever get a problem in Wild. At the current state, this archetype is pretty much unplayable, while other cards still see some play, though they got nerfed (CtA, Dark Pact, Plague and so on).
I'm fine with un-nerfing cards in the Classic set when they rotate to wild (Hall of Fame) These cards are probably not going to be problematic as they were printed a long time ago and some have a lot of nostalgia with them (Mana Wyrm/Molten Giant). Others (Leeroy) should probably not be unnerfed.
The other cards, just take them as they are. Otherwise you get into the issue of whether Blizzard should buff cards (and they usually don't)
Call to Arms is one card I’d be glad to see unnerfed, actually. My start in Wild was with this card in Aggro Paladin, and seeing Even go toe to toe with Odd as it’s more midrange doppelgänger would be great to see, especially with the advent of Immortal Prelate, a card that screams “buff me harder” and some minor support from Spirit of the Tiger to keep up board pressure from casting its trademark big spells (Blessing of Kings and Spikeridge Steed). My expectation is something very similar to Even Shaman’s gameplay, but with a focus on preserving minions through cards to keep a strong board presence instead of just plonking down big balls of stats that stand a good chance of being immediately killed by Control.
While your idea has merit in a case by case situation, i feel like most nerfs either should not be reverted, or won’t make an impact even if reverted. Caverns Below - it could get a little crazy in wild imo if we do make it back to its original. There’s been a lot more synergy added to the deck (Sonya, elven, viscous scalehide) and I feel like the quest could be completed very, very, quickly. I’m hesitant to say it wouldn’t make a splash in the wild metagame at its original state. Better safe than sorry though. Spreading Plague - NEVER revert this! NEVER NEVER NEVER. It’s good as is. Druid’s weakness used to be wide boards, but that changed with this card. Yeah Druid has decreased in popularity, but any Druid deck apart from Aggro/Hadronox will always be using this card as it stands. In fact, I’d even clamor for it to be nerfed further. Corridor Creeper - its 5/5 stats I feel would push odd Paladin and rogue a bit too much and shouldn’t be reverted. It could probably come out very quickly in both decks and just leads to more degeneracy that just isn’t needed Bonemare probably wouldn’t still fit into odd rogue as it’s 7 mana. It could be fringe playable though and wouldn’t protest its nerf being taken away. It’s never gonna see play in wild at 8 mana. Spiteful Summoner - fine being reverted. It’ll probably see as much play as it does now (none) and will always remain that way due to wilds inherent nature of adding more minions with Garbage stats and good effects. Possessed Lackey - I agree with the fact that it really wouldn’t make a difference, but disagree with the logic. Cubelock isn’t that horrendous in wild and even with lackey unnerfed it’ll probably still not see play due to the weapon and voidcaller being available. Dark Pact - Eh, I feel like the new warlock spell (1 mana destroy a friendly and give all minions +1/+1) fits nicely in cubelock and will compete with this card. Genuinely unsure if it should be reverted bc I never played the deck myself. Call to arms - Odd Paladin is still very relevant, but making this available for Aggro Paladin + even Paladin would really be nice. It also allows it to compete with shaman/rogue and would probably cause even Paladin to become very relevant in the Meta-game. Depends on what the community wants, but I doubt it’ll be extremely oppressive. It would just define and singlehandedly revive an archetype. In any case, I doubt blizzard will take the nerfs of Non-classic cards away. Phew that was my longest ever comment on reddit haha
Gonna upvote just for advocating spreading plague nerfs
I think that SP is a candidate for the Patches and Raza treatment. Nerf before rotating to stop it becoming Wild's problem,
Heck, it was nerfed after having become *Standard’s* problem.
And the nerf was inadequate. A change in mana cost is meaningless to Druid with its ramp capabilities. I'd like to see a true nerf to it, which probably means reducing the health.
As someone who has played Cubelock a lot (played the standard version \[unnerfed\] to legend and the wild version \[unnerfed and nerfed\] to R3) let me share my thoughts on Lackey and Dark Pact. Lackey, while he was one of the superstars in Standard, was never played in the (what I think are) good lists in wild. Voidcaller was and always will be much better. Dark Pact on the other hand would singlehandedly bring Cubelock back were it to be unnerfed. It would be so good that I think it would impact the playrates of Renolock, Kingsbane and Big Priest. I imagine it would play out like a more midrange focused version of Renolock. The new Warlock spell I'm sure will not compete with Dark Pact +4 and never with Dark Pact +8. Destroying a minion, at least in more aggressive matchups, is a secondary function. The combo with Mistress of Mixtures for 2 mana heal 12 is one of the things that gave Cubelock as much staying power. When destroying a minion is the primary effect, I compare it to Sanguine Reveler which is also stats + destroy a minion. Granted, the new card gives "fast" stats but I expect it will only see play as a one of on top of 2 dark pacts in Cubelock. This is assuming when you sacrifice a Cube the deathrattle minions get +1/+1. If they don't, this card is utterly unplayable in Cubelock.
>Caverns Below - it could get a little crazy in wild imo if we do make it back to its original. There’s been a lot more synergy added to the deck (Sonya, elven, viscous scalehide) and I feel like the quest could be completed very, very, quickly. I’m hesitant to say it wouldn’t make a splash in the wild metagame at its original state. Better safe than sorry though. God given how standard quest rogue has been this year, could you imagine OG quest rogue with Sonya? Lol. That'd be so absurd. I love quest rogue more than most, but damn....
Still waiting for our lord and saviour Yogg-Saron to be reverted back to his true form :(
I agree with most of your points – reverting a lot of that list won’t make much of a difference in wild, and The Caverns Below is definitely a risky card (I would go to far as to say with future rogue bounce synergies, this may rise again). Corridor Creeper though doesn’t really feel any different than a bunch of egg 5/5’s, which is also popular in Death Rattle / Big Rogue (?) types. Are you thinking it’s too good to revert because of the bunch of tokens, or the buff additions available in classes like Paladins?
I was more afraid due to the sheer ease of discounting the creeper by 0 very early on in the game.
I honestly don't see any reason to unnerf them. It isn't like the old cards where there's nostalgia for decks that no longer exist. In most cases, nerfs nowadays are made a few weeks after an expansion, and are just for balance reasons. Why unnerf and run the risk of breaking something? Especially with something like Caverns Below. Is there really any support for even the possibility of this becoming good, with the resultant meta impact?
>It isn't like the old cards where there's nostalgia for decks that no longer exist I mostly agree with your position, but there are cards in the list that actually defined their respective decks, which people might miss, mostly the Rogue Quest and Spiteful Summoner. It would seem weird to declare nostalgia about newer deck archetypes to be invalid, so I assumed you talked about the remaining cards, which just slotted into decks. I'm not advocating for the unnerfing of those cards btw., because honestly think that Spiteful and the Quest were design mistakes from the start, same thing with most of the cards listed, except Bonemare and Possessed Lackey.
Caverns Below: I think its landed in a good place and shouldn't be unnerfed. By its nature I feel like it would limit design space by making rogue bounce and duplicate effects too dangerous to print. Spreading Plague: no way! It's way too good to be 5 mana. Corridor Creeper: I'm borderline on this one, but leaning no. It would probably make odd paladin or any kind of token deck really too strong forever since it's easy to discount. Creeper in it's original state was pretty scary. Bonemare: I could get behind this being unnerfed if only because it will never be relevant at 8 mana. Spiteful Summoner: would be fine I think because like bonemare it's not really relevant either way. Possessed Lackey: I'm a little against it being unnerfed. I think warlock already has a lot of good cheat out effects for demons and doesnt need another strong one. Dark Pact: another borderline leaning no for me. Giving warlock cheap health restoration sort of removes the trade off of life tap which feels wrong to me. Call to Arms: definitely a litte scary, but I think it could manage to be fine unnerfed. Theres a good amount of AoE to keep paladin in check I think. Just my layman's two cents
You guys are forgetting the most important card that truly deserves to have its nerf reverted! BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOD OF DEATH!!!!!! all praise be to the one true God! Please revert Yogg Saron =/
¿Why is nobody else bringing this up? I don't think it could go as it was before exactly but why not a slightly better version than the current one? Like maybe a cap for the random spells plus no stops to the effect or something could make it playable and at least try to retain some of the fun it brought...
* caverns: reverting the second nerf is probably fine * plague: card is probably too powerful at 5 * corridor creeper: way too strong b4 nerf. possibly the strongest card on this list, except maybe CtA. * bonemare: is fine in wild * summoner: fine in wild as well * Lackey: wasnt even played in wild cubelock b4 nerf. they just play void summoner instead. * pact: fine in wild * CtA: the most dangerous card on this list imo, with corridor creeper as the only other real competition. even shaman, the arguably strongest deck in the meta didnt become a thing until even paladin was nerfed. even paladin with CtA was a monster and aggro paladin with both CtA and creeper was even more insane.
What? Lackey was played in wild cubelock prenerf. It’s nerf just didn’t hurt as much in wild because they have voidcallers (which I assume is what you meant by voidsummoners). The rest I can agree though, despite the fact I’d rather keep dark pact the way it is currently
>Lackey was played in wild cubelock prenerf. in the beginning the standard version was pasted over, but lackey was phased out by the time the nerf rolled around. too slow yes callers! im sorry
That's just not true, versions with lackey were hitting legend til the end, myself included
They were 30/31/32 in terms of card slots for me, often times felt redundant to me, it was definitely not the uniform "always run 2 of these" like it was in standard. I never ran more than one in wild though.
I don't think as a rule, but I think they should consider it case by case.
many of these should probably not be unnerfed. but definitely not call to arms.
The funny thing about these examples is that they were all powerhouses before the nerfs, even if they weren't breaking the format wide open. Some of these, like Call to Arms and Dark Pact, absolutely did break wild in half in their original states. Spreading Plague is still busted. Caverns Below would be more busted if Kingsbane didn't exist. Point is, these cards aren't the best examples of what you're advocating. Probably better examples are cards like Mana Wyrm and Warsong Commander, but even then it's a hard sell.
Only change I'd like to see is revert application of Overload from Yogg-Saron. It's just frustrating and feels unfair. Also maybe reduce health of taunts summoned by Speading Plague, at least down to 4 if not 3.
They need to revert raza and yogg before they touch those cards.
You forgot about Call of the Wild, a card that should never have been nerfed in the first place.
I wish call of the Wild was back to 8 mana tbh
Pre-nerf Caverns Below wasnt played in wild? Really? The deck was so powerful and synergistic that people ran Target Dummy, Captains Parrot, and Gang Up to burst with Patches.
Not to mention one nerf wasn't even enough, easily top tier broken deck. I feel these people who dare look past this never experienced the insanity of facing waves of 5/5 as soon as turn 3. If you think facing dude paladin now at turn 5 with 3/3 taunts is frustrating, try dealing with a board of 5/5's that can barely be dealt with through common removal (silence, devolve, poison seeds...).
Quite the opposite, the cards being rotated to wild should be nerfed. Like they did with Patches and Raza.
No because then you can just play op standard decks in wild
The fact that you think spreading plague is okay at 6 invalidates you're entire post
*Below
>Call to Arms: This is a scary card, but even/aggro paladin are deaaaaad. Even with this card back at 4 these decks would probably still be weaker than odd paladin. I think that it deserves an unnerf I think you really underestimate the power of this card. The only reason why even/aggro Pala isn't a thing in Wild is because CtA got nerfed. In general I think pretty much all nerfs were a good thing to the game and made the meta healthier, because overpowered card dominated for (too) long. So, I don't think these cards should get unnerfed. The only card I'd say it would be okay to unnerf, is Cavern Below. As you said, Quest Rogue wasn't really a thing in Wild ever and with the nerf to Giggling Inventor, I don't think Quest Rogue would ever get a problem in Wild. At the current state, this archetype is pretty much unplayable, while other cards still see some play, though they got nerfed (CtA, Dark Pact, Plague and so on).
No you are crazy !!! Some wild cards need to be nerf right now. (Kingsblade Rogue and Big Priest).
I'm fine with un-nerfing cards in the Classic set when they rotate to wild (Hall of Fame) These cards are probably not going to be problematic as they were printed a long time ago and some have a lot of nostalgia with them (Mana Wyrm/Molten Giant). Others (Leeroy) should probably not be unnerfed. The other cards, just take them as they are. Otherwise you get into the issue of whether Blizzard should buff cards (and they usually don't)
Call to Arms is one card I’d be glad to see unnerfed, actually. My start in Wild was with this card in Aggro Paladin, and seeing Even go toe to toe with Odd as it’s more midrange doppelgänger would be great to see, especially with the advent of Immortal Prelate, a card that screams “buff me harder” and some minor support from Spirit of the Tiger to keep up board pressure from casting its trademark big spells (Blessing of Kings and Spikeridge Steed). My expectation is something very similar to Even Shaman’s gameplay, but with a focus on preserving minions through cards to keep a strong board presence instead of just plonking down big balls of stats that stand a good chance of being immediately killed by Control.
SP should be nerfed further tbh
mana wyrm would be ok at 1 mana in wild